Ep. 108 with Bree Johnson | CEO & Founder, Executive Unschool

Healing Work Wounds

Your job can break your heart without ever breaking a law, and that gap is where so many professional women get stuck. We sit down with Bree, an attorney turned founder of Executive Unschool and host of the podcast How Good Can It Get, to name what so many people feel but rarely say out loud: workplace harm leaves real wounds, and your nervous system doesn’t forget them just because you switched companies.

We unpack the legal career reality behind the prestige, including the associate grind, billable-hour pressure, partnership goalposts, and the golden handcuffs of student debt and status. Bree shares how motherhood, entrepreneurship, and major career pivots reshaped her view of ambition, identity, and what it means to be “successful” when you also want to be present at home.

Then we get actionable with healing and work recovery. Bree walks us through her “work wounds” framework (burnout, bullying, bad behavior, betrayal), why betrayal can be the hardest to unwind, and how separating worth from work creates space for faith, joy, and better boundaries. We also talk nervous system regulation, micro recoveries throughout the day, breathwork for scattered minds, and designing seasonality into your year so you can create, recover, and show up with more clarity. 

If you’re craving a career that loves you back, hit play, share this with a friend who needs a reset, and subscribe so you don’t miss what’s next. If you enjoy the conversation, leave a review and tell us: what would “enough” look like in your life right now?

Resources Mentioned:

• How Good Can It Get Podcast

Connect with Bree:

• Website: Executive Unschool
• IG: @executiveunschool & @breejohnsonofficial
• LinkedIn: Bree Johnson

Contact the Host, Kelly Kirk:

• Email: info.ryh7@gmail.com

Get Connected/Follow:

• The Hue Drop Newsletter: Subscribe Here
• IG: @ryh_pod & @thekelly.tanke.kirk
• Facebook: Reclaiming Your Hue Facebook Page
• CAKES Affiliate Link: KELLYKIRK

Credits:

• Editor: Joseph Kirk
• Music: Kristofer Tanke 

Thanks for listening & cheers to Reclaiming Your Hue! 

Transcript

Summer Welcome And Real Connection

Kelly 0:01

Good morning, Brie.

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Good morning. I'm so glad to be here. What a wonderful hostess with the most is.

Kelly 0:08

Thank you. Well, it's summertime, and we're gonna take advantage of having some extra sets of hands. So I um, and for the listeners, um, what I'm referencing is the kiddos are off of school, and that means that they get to help greet the guests. And sorry to those guests who have been here and they haven't been greeted by either Conrad or Landon or both, but um, during the summer, this is just an extra little treat. So I love it. I am so excited. It's always so nice when I get to actually meet somebody in person and you're like, you have this like expectation of what it is gonna be like when you first meet them. And every single time, I'm not even joking you, expectations are blown out of the water in the best way possible. So I'm thrilled that you're here. Now, I would like to uh start off by sharing how it is that we got connected. Do you remember?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Well, Ashley Roloff is the most masterful connector that I'm familiar with. And um, if memory serves, she was the one who just thought that you and I would have some synergies and great conversations and connected us via text. I'm Ashley. Every time she connects me with someone, it just is like I jump on it because it's she's really good at that. And then you and I had that conversation, and it was like, I mean, it was one of those where I really felt that we could have stayed on for a lot longer, and even before we hit record here, you know, there's there's so many things that we can talk about. So she she nailed it.

Kelly 1:45

Yeah, I mean, it to catch the listeners up to speed too, there's a lot of parallels between what you and I are doing, and I'll let you share that in just a moment. But those were some of the things where I'm like, we could like literally, this could be just a whole other podcast in itself on like the business strategy and how you approach different circumstances with you know one business or the other. And so not a bad idea to think through. Not a bad idea to think through.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Maybe I'll have to see your other greeter.

Kelly 2:16

I know, I know, I love it. All right, let's go ahead and dive in, Bree.

Motherhood First Then Career Momentum

Kelly 2:21

So we know Ashley Roloff is the one that introduced us, and we love her to pieces. She's absolutely incredible. What came first for you? Was it entrepreneurship or was it motherhood?

SPEAKER_00 2:32

For me, it was motherhood. I was um, so I've been in entrepreneurship for just shy of seven years. Um, and my oldest son will be 13 in a few months, so about half and half. So I had I have two boys, 13 and 10 next Tuesday. Um, and I was working in a corporate environment when I had my first son at Thomson Reuters. So I'm an attorney by background. Yeah. Um, graduated a really interesting time in 2009. I graduated a semester early thinking I was getting ahead of the job market. And if anybody remembers the recession in 2009. Purdue. It was quite possibly one of the worst times to be graduating in a moment when Minnesota has four law schools and we're putting out 200 plus each. Um there's four law schools, 200 grads, and there were no jobs. Law firms were just hemorrhaging. I got very fortunate and was recruited to join Thompson Writers in a contractor position, just writing. My background's print journalism, poli sci, and really worked my way up in that environment to the point where I was managing a team of attorneys. Um, and that was when I had my first kiddo. It was such a supportive. The woman that I worked for had already had her oldest child, which, if you can be in environments, work environments while having kiddos, that there are other women kind of holding your hand through that experience. That was just so I felt so fortunate to have that and was really surrounded by a lot of women who were in the same season of life. Um, I felt no pressure on the work front. That's amazing. As I was reflecting for this podcast, I wanted to share a story. It was really interesting. While I was on maternity leave, though, I was um my my director was always looking out for me in terms of like the next career move, but I had to come in and interview while I was just only weeks postpartum, which was the biggest sort of mind-bender experience because your first time kiddo, my mind is all on the kid. Um, for me at nursing hadn't gone well, so it was like pumping, and that wasn't a really lovely, was not a lovely experience initially. Yeah. Um, just didn't feel like myself, first time mom. But I was like, what do I have to lose? I'm gonna come in and interview for this role. And I ended up getting the job, and it was just kind of that first indication for me of I can do both things. And love that. Yeah, it you know, I it's not been easy. Um then I had my second kiddo when I was in law firm life, and again, I um moved to law firms in 2013, 2014 actually. Um on the operations side, I was really growing in my career, building teams, um, reached a C-level position, and in the middle of that, had my second kiddo. They're two and a half years apart, and um, that was a great experience too. So um, we can talk about some of the hard things because I'm kind of glancing over some of that right now. But uh building the career while having the kids definitely had some significant challenges. I was buttressed in many ways because my husband at the time was for part of it, he was in insurance and part of it he was in real estate, and he just had the more flexible schedule. So he became the default parent when kids were sick, when the massive schedule disruption that happens with all things kids. Um so I was very fortunate in that regard. Um, and yet, you know, was doing the darn thing while raising little kids, and I'm proud

Law Career Paths In Plain English

SPEAKER_00 6:00

of that too.

Kelly 6:01

I have a few different directions that I want to go right now, and but I think this is where I'd like to start. So for those who are listening right now that don't have lay of the land for what the legal world looks like, can you give sort of like a general overview and in layman's terms for individuals that are they're just they're not privy to like all of the different routes that you can go? Because I think that this is kind of important to share. Um I have had a couple individuals who have been on on the podcast where they came from a legal role, right? And it was opposite. It was, you know, they're they're understanding that like their next pawn move in this career field means that they are going to be in that legal office or that law firm from sunup to sundown, maybe through the night. Yep. And then working to fit in how a family dynamic fits into that was challenging for them. I'm hearing different from you, and so I'm what I that automatically does in my head is gives me this perspective that there's different routes that you can go, and that's obvious, right? That's that's the case for so many different fields and the complexities of them. But I'd love for you to share sort of like this broad overview.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

That's a really brilliant question because going to law school, of course, I wanted to graduate and become a practicing lawyer. Um, I went to law school with the intention of social justice, of public interest work, of very sort of heart-led but still legal work. Yeah. And because of the market that I entered into at the time, I fell into something that was a non-practicing role. Now I think the blessing of that, and I don't think God or the universe, like there's he they never miss. He never misses. Um, and as you're talking about this, I'm really reminded of how grateful I am that I fell into and started my career in a non-traditional role, because not only did I get significant business expertise and acumen from those experiences, the corporate exposure, all of those things, but it was the stepping stone for my personal life development as well. Yeah. Because you nailed it. So if somebody is um goes to law school and steps into, you know, traditionally go they go into an associate role in a large law firm, because those are the firms that hire the most. They're the most coveted roles. Maybe they go into um government work, you know, on there's some entry-level roles there too. Um, but those paths require seven to nine years of grinding.

Kelly 8:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

And what I, you know, so a lot of my work, um, my business is executive and school. And so it's sort of debunking unschooling ideas, though. And one of the challenges of that system is you can grind away for seven to nine years and still not be accepted as a partner because what law firms, especially the big ones, the ones that I worked at, I had my punch card filled with three different big law firms as I went into law firms. Um, and they're all very similar in that they are much more selective about who they are selecting for partnership. Yeah. And one thing a lot of people don't understand about partnership, is it's often a very large financial responsibility. So, in addition to, you know, it truly is, you know, working around the clock as an associate, you know, most firms are not going to be amenable to work-life balance while you're an associate. It's viewed as the grind. Um, I was a summer associate at a law firm, and we were working till four in the morning going through documents ahead of a major litigation, looking for just that single hot dog, your eyes are glazing over. And that's just the experience of being an associate.

Kelly 9:54

Think of suits. You ever watched suits?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

I haven't, but I'm sure it's it's it's there was a lot of that. A lot of scenes like that. Yeah. And the old guard, you know, who are your more established partners who have a lot of clout still expect that. Yeah. That sort of commitment level from anybody who's even going to be considered for partner. Then you throw in the metrics that are required of billable hours. And, you know, there's just still a lot of old trappings, not only illegal. I think it's a lot of professional services, um, but they're more difficult. And I think the one thing perhaps that's valuable to say here, too, is even for people who go to get those advanced degrees, I went straight from undergrad to law school, is there's a really expansive way of thinking about what it is you want to do when you're done. And it doesn't have to be that one thing that is the most common. There's a lot of more non-traditional opportunities that an MBA, a J D, an MA, like the opportunities and just the critical thinking that are um skills you develop while you're in school can be used for different careers. But I would say by and large, it's tricky if you're gonna follow that sort of standard path.

Kelly 11:03

Yeah. The the work-life balance thing, I almost think that as it relates to that particular path where you would go like right into those most coveted areas. It's like, who's typically fitting that mold? Right? Is it somebody who is actively thinking about starting a family? Probably not. Probably not, but I digress. It was just a thought that had popped into my head is like, I wonder how many, how many individuals, women and men, that have had these thoughts of like, I do want to start a family. This is there's more to life than just this. Yeah. And I do want more purpose out of my life. And then they just kind of get stuck in this hamster wheel, and then that just, you know, before they know it, five years have flown by, ten years have flown by, and then they're going, mm-hmm. Hmm.

Golden Handcuffs And Partnership Pressure

unknown 12:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Well, and to that point, I'll just offer like an example of this and why the golden handcuffs really come into play. Because so you have somebody who, you know, graduates law school, and if they're like me, with six figures of debt, despite having some scholarships, despite like, you know, advanced degrees are expensive. So then you go into and are looking for what are the jobs that I can make the most money because I've got all this debt to pay off. So you go into the associate track and you're working your way and you're not really thinking about kids or motherhood or you know, the value of those things as much because you got to get this career starting, you got to get that momentum. And so then you're in that for a few roles. By the time you get to your maybe fifth, sixth, seventh year uh in associatehood, maybe that begins to come online for you. Maybe you're now married and you want that. But what's really interesting is the number of women partners who are still um saying things and perpetuating the belief that you shouldn't have a baby until you're a partner. And sort of the harm that that the seed that plants, um, and you know, it just everybody's gotta make their own choices, but it definitely sort of shapes someone. If if I'm being told by a partner who has the decision of whether I'm gonna make partner in their hands that I should not have a child until I'm a partner, you know, the that carries weight, I guess is what I'm trying to say. For sure. And then so then they make partner, you know, and then they are said or told that they need to raise the capital contribution of $250,000. Now they need to take out a mortgage to pay the law firm to buy into the partnership as a capital contribution. And it just you can see how the goalposts kind of get moved. And I think it reinforces what perhaps we've all felt, at least I can I did. There's never a great time to have a baby.

No Perfect Time For Babies

Kelly 13:43

There isn't. No, let's talk through this. Yeah, I actually think that this is an opportune moment, is there's so many women who are listening right now and have had those circumstances where they're like, I'm not like, shoot, pre. I wasn't, I was thinking at first when I met my husband Joe, because the the son that you met, he's my bonus, and I might have shared this with you, but that was my initial introduction into a family dynamic, as I like to say. And at first we weren't even like Joe's like, I'm I think I'm good. So if that is something that you're thinking about, we should have conversation. And then I was like, you know, I think I'm okay. Like, I feel pretty fulfilled. This is amazing, and then it just started to there's there was like this evolution of like spending time seeing him with the kids and then or the boys, and I'm like, I think I want to have your babies, and then he's literally thinking the same thing too. And I'm also at that given moment to just kind of tie this in, going, yeah, but I'm like, you know, in my mid to late 30s, is it too late? Probably not the best time. Okay, maybe, you know, I am feeling really healthy at that point in life. I was like strength training consistently and doing all of the things that made my body feel as if I could do anything, including birthing a baby. And it just happened. And I just remember looking at the um pregnancy test and going, oh my god, I am not ready for this at all. God fully knew what was happening in this moment for me, though, and was just training my heart for all of it. So talk to me about your experiences in this.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Yeah, I mean, we were kind we had loosely been trying for about a year and nothing was happening. It's it was an interesting and there was no stress or pressure. It was literally like just kind of winging it. Um and then we said, okay, we're gonna go to Costa Rica, because in what would that have been? That would have been 2013 instead, set aside like not even think about it. We'll like re-approach this in 2014. It's no big deal at the time. We I think we were 28 and 29. Um, so really feeling like the world was our oyster, and then I took a pregnancy test, and sure enough, I got pregnant. You know, the when you like the second you set it aside, um, that was my experience, and definitely had those feelings of I'm not ready. And I think firstborn, my firstborn is just such a common experience where it is so overwhelming. And even I I have truly always seen myself being a mom. Yeah. But when the rubber meets the road and now I'm pregnant, and can I do this? And can I, you know, still have the career? Can I still, you know, is my uh ambition even going to be present? And then you go through the birthing experience, and it's like, I don't, I'm not even I I think I felt like it took a six full months before I came back into my body and like felt like myself.

Kelly 16:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Because that was um, it's intense. Yes, it's an intense kind of identity reshaper. Um, it's really intense just on the physical body, and I I wasn't prepared as much for that. I had a um 22 hours of labor and then I had a c-section, and I got an infection on the back, so my body was just raked over the coals in that experience. And honestly, I had a lot of grief because I had a c-section. Um I had really wanted that experience of the pushing and the pride of that. Um, I remember we did the class and uh you got the cue cards and you kind of ranked what you wanted. And the C-section was my like 13th or 14th, you know, like in all the other situations that may arise, that was the one I wanted the least, but it was the one I needed for the safety of my child. Um, but you know, kind of going through that process. And the cool thing for me was then with the second kiddo of the anxiety and some of the like the self-trust that had been built through that experience, yeah, I was able to more fully enjoy and just trust myself. No, you know, every child is gonna bring you things that you don't expect. And that's one of the biggest lessons that I've learned from motherhood that really translates to entrepreneurship is just when you think you're like dialed in, you've got the plan, you know what's up, there's a curveball coming.

Kelly 18:16

Oh my word, girlfriend. Don't we all know it? And all the women said yes. Now I know you threw out the name of your business, but can you just refresh our memories on what your what your business name is and what that means? How did you get to that point? And then I've got a follow-up question after that.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Yeah.

Executive Unschool Origin Story

SPEAKER_00 18:39

So my business is called executive unschool. It's the name of it came to me in a breathwork. So um what does that mean? Yeah. Yeah. So I um we can talk about like the practices. I uh regularly meditate and I on a semi-regular basis um do breath work. I'm certified in a practice called hypno breathwork. And so it's about 20-25 minutes um cueing myself if I'm leading myself through a session, just asking questions, just kind of probing. For me, um I love meditation, but sometimes my mind doesn't want to shut off. And so, breath work when I pair it with it's called the holotropic, a three-part connected breath. My mind, because I have to focus on breathing, um, so not only is it bringing a lot of oxygen into my body, but my mind is finally at peace and my subconscious comes a little more alive. So the things that the creativity comes through, and so that's the name came through into breath work. It was great. Yeah, and it was interesting. So um I had gone through just a difficult breakup because um business breakup.

Kelly 19:39

Um I'm like, wait a second.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yep. Um, I so there's uh some intervening years where so I left big law 2020, started my own law practice, an employment law practice, so then got into practicing it. My career has been sort of backwards from what most people do. Um, started practicing employment law, a solo COVID hits. It's beautiful because I'm an entrepreneur, I own my own business. I decide I was available for my kids. They did distance learning for a year and a half. Like I just had the best experience from that. And then uh I went into a partnership with three other individuals um co-founding this. I was the managing partner and COO because I had the business expertise. And after about, I think it was like 18 months, two years, it just wasn't in alignment really with what I needed. And um, so I gave notice and I left not having a clue what I was gonna do. Yeah. And just knowing that for me, my heart is in the place of when there is harm in the workplace. I believe wholeheartedly we need to be getting out ahead more proactive. Now, where a lawyer comes is is after the harm's happened, yeah. And, you know, seeking to get compensation for what has happened. There's a role for that, perhaps, but my brain is a little bit bigger. I want to be, I don't want the harm to happen in the first place. Yeah. And so executive unschool-good on you. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, and you know, still bringing some of that sensibilities in. But now my whole mission with Executive Unschool is to help heal work wounds. Because what I find is so many people go from job hop to job hop thinking the grass is greener, but they're still carrying the baggage of the work wound. And it can be simple things. It can be, you know, that boss that you didn't get along with, or somebody who told you it doesn't look like you're working very hard, or it can be some of the bigger things like burnout, like true clinical burnout. Um, how do you actually heal from that? So executive unschool is the company and building um private mentorship, is one of the my favorite things to do. I really love helping women build careers that love them back. What does that look like? Well, we do things like meditation and breath work and a ton of self discovery. Because when you know yourself, you can create armor. And when somebody asks something of you that is like out of alignment, out of integrity, that you don't feel right doing. You're stronger and you can say no, or you can have the boundaries and things like that. So private mentorship, um, I do a lot of workshops, I have some corporate partners, um, drawing that work down, but really my heart is in helping women heal from their experiences and really build back better in their careers.

Kelly 22:17

I literally was just gonna ask you what your niche is, and you you shared that. So it's women, but is it deeper than that, or is it just like any woman could come to you and work through this?

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Yeah, I think the best it's professional women, and so that sometimes looks like corporate, it looks like um somebody who's in a nine to five. Now, I do work with a few founders who have left the those environments and are still sort of in the hangover effect. Yeah. Because that's where the big identity ruptures happen is who am I without, like in my case, being a lawyer. Who am I? Like, what value do I bring to a market? Do I, from a confidence perspective, do I even have the chops to do this work in this new way by myself? You know, all of those doubts come up. So I work with founders who are sort of early stage in building something new, but they want to alchemize all that experience. We don't lose good word. We don't lose all the experience from our prior, you know, the things we've done in our career, the prior iterations of us, but we probably want to grow beyond that. And so that's the the special point at where I do that. So not every woman who's working in corporate is ready for that, frankly. Yeah, it's a really special type of person. Um, they've probably done some healing work, maybe talk therapy, um, and they really want to go to the next level, but their passion is their work. And so, how do I find greater fulfillment, greater purpose, greater joy right where I'm at? Doesn't require burning the career down necessarily. Yeah, and I've got a ton of modalities and tools that we use to do that.

Kelly 23:53

Who do you feel like, or what sort of field do you feel has been the most challenging to navigate when you're working with this type of woman?

The Four Work Wounds Explained

SPEAKER_00 24:04

So in executive unschool, I've coined work wounds and I've coined four of them. Um, the four B's: burnout, bullying, bad behavior, which is like the true stuff that often, you know, um, like from a legal perspective, that there may be a claim. And then feelings of betrayal. Of the four, I would say the feelings of betrayal are the hardest to rewire and unlearn. Um, because when we whether for example, um, if a woman has been working for a company, let's say a decade, and all of a sudden she is laid off because the company is going in a different direction. The feelings of betrayal that come from that and the stories, because our minds are meaning-making machines, and we want to tell ourselves a story, we're not good enough, or they didn't value me, you know, that becomes the broken record that can sometimes live for too long in the system.

Kelly 24:58

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

That unprocessed or like unacknowledged goes on to keep you stuck or cause you to kind of find that same cycle in your next role. You need to like disrupt it. We need to unschool what was maybe the ways of working, or you know, what was your role in that? Because that's a work is just like a personal, intimate relationship, but it's a two-way street.

Kelly 25:20

So true.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

And there may be things that you as an individual who has had that experience that those feelings of betrayal could do differently too, and we work through that. So, but I they're the most deeply rooted. Um, our work is very personal to us. We've been conditioned to believe that what we do, our productivity, our output is our value. And that's really another thing we in school is like separating our worth from work.

Faith And Worth Beyond Output

Kelly 25:49

Feeling this one kind of come to me, I feel like this is sort of the way that I want to take the direction that I want to take this. Faith is very important to me. I think that you know that I've I shared that when we spoke, and you've probably gotten that in terms of some of the other podcast interviews that you've listened to. I'm curious if you see and have, as you're unschooling these women, how much is faith playing a role? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Yeah. It's it's not what I lead with in talking about because there are many prospective clients who come to me where if we talk about that transformation, the the parts of you uh of a person that come online in doing this work, one of them being faith and spirituality and trust, it's absolutely a connection that happens. It's a very individual, very personal. Um, but without a doubt, I think I'm just sort of thinking through most of the Roladox, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it it truly because when you separate worth from work, you have more capacity to think about, okay, around all of the things that I could care about from my family to my work to my health to my finances to my spirituality, all you know, they all play a role. And when work is such an outsize, there's no room, there's no capacity to think about the awe or the wonder or the gratitude as much because we're just in the doing. Yeah. Um, and so by separating that sense and creating more capacity in the mind and in the body, yeah, the connections can form in new ways of spirituality, of faith, of relationship with God and whatever that looks like for that individual. But I've seen it just about every time.

Kelly 27:43

That's so incredible. I think of for me on a personal level, when it comes to faith, it has shown me a different way to view myself, right? In terms of like my worth is not because of the productivity that I put in, though I it's still an unschooling thought process in my own head. I'm like, this does not equal this. There's so much more. Like, I have to go through this, like um, not manufactured script, but like sort of a script I've mentally put into my head, like, start here, then go here, then go here. What are my God-given skills that I have been provided, and how can I hone in on those? And that's what pushes over into all of the stuff that I do. So that's sort of my way of how I've unschooled myself and then gone, let's rebuild this up. And then this is what the script is gonna look like now, so that I can punch everything out that I need to.

unknown 28:51

Yeah.

Kelly 28:51

For me, like connection is the biggest thing. Connecting like this, how can I connect you to somebody else? I've got like three women who I'm like, yep, I know exactly who I need to connect you with, Bri. And it's like, you might actually already know them. And if you don't, I'm like, woo! And even if you do know them, I'm like, woo, my I'm like on the right track and I love it so much. So something else that I was thinking through as you were talking about that is like love, joy, peace, patience, all of these like things that are really important to kind of be able to lead in a different way from the heart, and how you are encouraged through circumstances. And I'm thinking through like these women that you're you're working with. How many of them have sort of this like the opposite of those words that they are working through, and then you see this flip over to that?

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Yeah, and I think the the opposite words that I often find insecurity, because we've been, you know, conditioned to either be humble to a fault or you know, to put others on a pedestal. So insecurity is a big one that um sort of starting from a lack of confidence, a lack of, you know, when I one of the big giveaways is if I ask someone, what do you most enjoy in your work? I don't know. What do you if you could do anything, what would you desire to do? I have no idea. You know, and then you go to the level of, and there was, you know, I I joke, but there's a prior version of me too, where when somebody used to ask me, What do you want to do this weekend? What do you want to eat? I don't know, because my brain was so focused on work, I couldn't even tap into those words that you talked about, or or things like joy or pleasure or wonder or awe. They were just not available.

Kelly 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

And it requires rewiring. Um, and that's what you know, being more um thoughtful. We do a lot with neuroscience too. So when you were talking about the script that you go through, you're actually, you know, spot on for what it takes to create new neural pathways. And the way that I talk about it all the time is the way that you used to work or your autopilot sort of operation is gonna be that eight-lane highway. What you're building new and why having a script or the path you follow to sort of encourage yourself to go down new, it's gonna feel like a dirt road. And that's why having that process that you follow is so instrumental in actually building that new way of being. Because it's it it's impossible. And we've got all this conditioning. Um, I call it the ABC. So our agreements, our beliefs, and our conditioning that tell us we have to be one way.

Kelly 31:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

And so, kind of to your question about, you know, the clients that come to me, how do we get to that place? It does take a long time. Most of my clients I work with in the private mentorship capacity, um, two plus years. Uh, and it's an onion. Yeah, and the things never go away. Yeah. And you're just, oh, okay. And it's same for me. Um, as I've unschooled my own work wounds, it's, you know, I get a new input and I'm like, oh, I could have reacted this way that I used to react, or I could try something new. Let's try something new. It feels really uncomfortable, but I'm gonna give it a shot.

Kelly 32:08

Yes. All right, I'm gonna ask you, and curious if you're willing to be vulnerable in this circumstance.

When Workplace Harm Stays Hidden

Kelly 32:15

What do you feel like is the hardest work wound that you've had to work through?

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Yeah. I have many, and it's no wonder why this I love it.

Kelly 32:27

Yeah. Thank you. That's so I love the authenticity. There's many. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

How long do you have it? Um, but it, you know, it should be no surprise. It's why I'm called to this work. I really feel like it is my heart and my mission. I would say the most recent work wound was leaving the law firm I co-founded.

Kelly 32:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Because my whole heart and soul was put into that. And I really believed in all of it until for me, it was really a very personal calculation and a very personal evaluation of what are the values that I want to lead with in my work in terms of how I feel. Yeah. It was like that the looking in the mirror and just wanting to feel that what I was offering clients who came to us with really profound work wounds, a more restorative, less in the traditional litigation. Yeah. Less in um, I'm an ADR um alternative dispute resolution certified neutral. Sorry, lots of words.

Kelly 33:29

Did you see me? I think my eyes glazed over and I was like, I don't even know what I'm like listening to right now. But okay, say it one more time.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Yeah. Um, so by background, I'm also a mediator.

Kelly 33:42

Okay, got it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Um, and thank you.

Kelly 33:44

Lehman's terms.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kelly 33:48

Um I'm like, Bree, speak to me when it comes to legal stuff. Speak to me like I'm a six-year-old. How about that? Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

And I need to slow down. Um, and so this is the heart of what I really want because the legal process itself does not necessarily serve the type of healing, you know. It's one, it serves one purpose, which is to obtain compensation to make the person whole. Yeah. Which doesn't make the person whole.

Kelly 34:18

Um, you know, not even close. Not even close.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Yeah. And so I just started to feel the calling of really wanting to feel more restorative, feel like I was helping more the whole human. And I just knew the legal process and the legal system and operating in a traditional legal environment wasn't going to be able to provide that for me and allow me to make the impact that I know I'm capable of making.

Kelly 34:42

I have follow-up questions now. What was the moment in time where you was it in the like after you had started your own firm where you were starting to connect the dots, do the calculations, so to speak, that like something's not right. And like, how can this be better? I think there's a lot of women who have been on the podcast, and then those who are listening, where there is that moment in time where you're just like something's not adding up. Something's got to be better. Like, there is something that is wrong in how all of this is operating. I'm literally trying to think of um in in pain, there is purpose. Like when you have your pain points, that's where you can find your purpose. Something to that, like, don't quote me on it, but like there is something to that. Like, when you start to see the pain points, there is problem solution, problem solution, and how do you work through to find the purpose and all of that? So I'm curious, was there like, did you have, and I might have asked you this when we were on Zoom, and I feel like I'm sort of recollecting. Did you have an a moment? And then it was like, oh, that was interesting.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Yeah. So my role at the law firm as managing partner and COO, I did a lot of operations duties because we were very small startup boutique firm. And one of them was handling intake calls. And so um, thankfully, our phone was often ringing off the hook, really from day one. So we would get anywhere from five to 15, 20 calls a day with people who had experienced harm in the workplace. The vast majority of the harm that they experienced was not legally actionable. So they did not have a claim that they could go then and file suit against their employer or take action against their employer. That experience of day after day after day, with nothing changing, most employment disputes are settled via confidential settlement, which includes a confidentiality agreement, a non-disparagement pris provision, a um, you're never allowed to talk about anything. You know what I mean? All of those sort of provisions. And so when, even when someone has experienced a legally actionable harm in the workplace, they're not able to talk about it. And in a lot of situations, the employer's behavior does not change.

Kelly 37:18

Hold on a second. How there's gotta be a lot of people out there walking around right now who know a lot of stuff and they're never gonna be able to speak to it.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

That's correct. You're seeing my aha.

Kelly 37:35

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

In my in my body, and just like sort of living with that practical reality, living within a system and realizing for my well-being, my integrity, my calling, I can't live within that system because for me, it wasn't enough. I wasn't doing enough to actually prevent it on the front end. There's and this is not a critique, this is the system I'm talking about of legal. There's a lot of elements of legal where this is true, and these confidentiality and these settlement agreements sort of drive outcomes, but they don't drive the change that we want to see. And my the quote that I love is if you um it's kind of like if you see something, say something, say something. It's yeah, you know, when you know better, do better. Oh, yeah, it's you know, a riff on hers. And that was my aha, is just seeing that over and over and just not feeling like my again, my impact, my ability to disrupt the system that keeps the harm quiet was expansive enough for what I want to do. And what I and this is where I've you know turned pain into purpose in a way, is it with executive unschool, I have just from talking about work wounds, if someone has experienced, you know, a painful thing at work and they hear that phrase, they feel seen. They, you know, viscerally understand, oh wait, that was something wounding. Because our culture also tells us when we have a painful work experience, shove it down, move on, you know, like you, you know, it's maybe something you talk about with a therapist or certainly something you've been to to your partner, but it's not really it doesn't have the weight, but yet the science has shown the physical impacts are just as much as trauma. The experience after a rupturing work event often takes about two years to heal from, and we now have scientific studies about the emotional and mental health impacts. Um, so I think we're just starting to understand how work can harm. Um, and that's the piece I want to get out of in front of with what I do at executive on school.

Kelly 39:48

Writing down another woman's name that I think might be a great person to connect with. Oh my gosh. I'm like, I got to the aha, like the the root of it and how it's sort of expanded into executive unschool. Exactly. That's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Yeah. Yeah.

Kelly 40:10

It's I love it.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

And then um through my own just healing of the experiences that I've had, what I then layer in is the modalities. And so it's, you know, certainly it's it's journaling, it's talking through things, it's the tools of work recovery that I equip people with, it's our framework, our work recovery method, but it's breath work, it's meditation, it's how do we sit in stillness? What do we do when we're not doing what do we, you know, the again getting out of autopilot is so essential. And so there's a lot of things that I then bring to the table that really make it more experiential. Um, and I think that's sort of the secret sauce of what we do and why it's hard to put it on a sales sheet because it's it's a little bit nuanced.

Kelly 40:59

A sales sheet. I love it. So when did Executive Unschool officially become a business?

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Three years ago.

Kelly 41:07

Three years ago, okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Uh just shy of coming up, we're coming up on our three-year uh birthday, which I was just thinking about.

Kelly 41:14

What is your birthday? Your three-year birthday of your uh I know what your actual birthday is. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

Um September 1st. I love it. Is will be the birthday. Yeah.

Kelly 41:24

2023.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Yep. Right?

Kelly 41:26

Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Yeah. And it's just, it's such a cool thing. It's very much like motherhood to kind of bring this, you know, to that point too of the learnings that come about. I'll never be done learning about entrepreneurship. I feel like I know one one trillionth of what there is to know. Um, and the coolest thing, just like motherhood, is I also know I'm doing the best that I can.

Kelly 41:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

And that's really cool too, is like I'm giving it my all because it's my heart. And that's what's yeah, so fun about owning my own business is getting to bring my whole self to work and letting this kind of be my third baby in a way.

Kelly 42:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

And letting it unfold and having a lot of grace for myself with kids and with disruption. We're in heavy sports season and I'm constantly recalibrating around, like, I did not get enough done today. Yeah. But it is what it is.

Kelly 42:18

It's so funny. I remember seeing one of your stories, and I think that you were either you had, was it baseball? Like you had left the baseball field, or you maybe you were still at the baseball field. I think you had your cute little hat on, so I think you were still at the baseball field. But I was like, oh, I feel this in my core right now. I just feel it in my core. And the hundredth episode that dropped for reclaiming your hue, I had on Jamie Gard Chapman, who owns a business here in Edinal called Guard Performance Academy, um, doing things a little bit differently in terms of how she's coaching tennis players. And I love it. And then Becky Bulu, um, championship culture. And all we talked about was this season of life that us as mothers who are entrepreneurs and just parents who have flexibility, and also how do you navigate that? And then how do you navigate it with your kids

Sports Season And Ruthless Partnership

Kelly 43:18

too? Because it's not just about us, it's like, how is this impacting the kids? And how are we allowing them to work through some of the stuff? And I'm like, oh my gosh, it's just it's a treat, and it's also very challenging.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Yeah, yeah. Baseball is teaching me. So we went from zero to 60 in baseball land. Um, we were not baseball parents, and I'm super proud of my little kiddo. He had never played baseball and decided he wanted to try out for the travel team.

Kelly 43:44

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

So I'm like, he's inspiring me. He's also just he's he loves sports, he's an athlete, and he made a travel team. Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

My husband comes home and says, Well, I probably should have asked you this, but I got asked if I would be a head coach, and I said yes. And I was like, oh, okay. Like we literally went from zero to 60. The coolest thing, not only do I love seeing both of them get out of their comfort zones, because it is, you know, the individual nature of the sport and the um, you know, you're up to the bat by yourself. You're, you know, just all of those things is really stretching him. He's again nine, almost 10. So that's been fantastic. But even for my husband to be in that role, and then I'm stretching myself. I am now the game changer mom, which is the app where you track all the baseball stats.

Kelly 44:31

Oh, gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Loving that. Um, but I am learning that I can do hard things. And the tourney life is one I did not have as it wasn't that I didn't respect it, I just didn't understand how much time, attention, and energy going to tournaments and doing three, four, five games in a weekend literally zaps you of your entire life force. Yes. The we had two tourney weekends back to back. I remember I woke up one morning just tired, paramenopause, like not sleeping great, having weird dreams. And I go out and I just like laid on the top of the couch, just like, can I do this day? Can I, can I, can I get through this day? And I was like, I can do it, I can do hard things. Yep. So I'm stretching my own capacity in my like filling my hours as much as I can, going as hard as I can, but then still having these activities at night and climbing into bed, being like, Wow, I did that. That's that feels pretty cool.

Kelly 45:24

Yeah. No, that is that's so cool. So as you are navigating this particular season of life, pun intended, with tournaments and activities. So are both kiddos in sports or is it just one?

SPEAKER_00 45:38

One right in this season. Our oldest is a footballer, so both of them will be in travel football in the fall. Okay. Um, so the oldest has a quiet season right now.

Kelly 45:47

Okay, that's nice.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Yeah, it is nice because we've seen the parents. So there's a set of twins in our area, um, and they are in two separate travel baseball teams, and it's just like ships in the night. Yeah. It's, you know, and it yeah, yeah, it's incredible what parents are capable of in this season. It's also, you know, for the kids who are doing it, my son always reminds me, I was the one who was out there when I'm like, I'm tired. He's like, you were tired.

Kelly 46:12

And I'm like, fair, fair. You're right. You're right. So, what do you feel like this is prompting for you and your husband? And what do you feel like it's requiring out of the two of you in this particular season of life?

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Ruthless partnership. So he has been such a supporter. He actually worked in executive end school. Um, he's really brilliant at marketing and ads and set a lot of things up for the business and was helping me while he was kind of doing his own business at the time, too. And then recently decided that he wanted to go into a high school. Um so he worked full-time. And what that transition has taught me and really brought us to this moment is how intentional we need to be with the micro moments of conversation we get. So there are times where we're out on a walk and it's, you know, what's on your mind? Like literally getting that connection time. There are other times where he's asking me for feedback on the baseball game, and we talk, we debrief on the baseball game because that's what he needs in a given moment. There are times where I'm looking at the calendar in my head as we're on a walk and going through the logistics of the week ahead. Like, remember, you now have seven baseball games, and so he's got to, you know, set all the seven up. What what do you need? Um, I've taken on a much more active role as a household manager in a way, because everybody was out of the house, whereas Josh and I were working in the home together. That just has had a different energy. And I wouldn't say I always love it. Um, I don't think I was like, tell me more. Yeah, I wouldn't, you know, the meals and the the prep and the, you know, it is a drag because, truth be told, I'd rather be doing the fun stuff in my business. Like I get such a creative high from writing and from conversations or sending a pitch out, or you know, those are the things I truly love doing, but I also have found a way to at least tolerate throwing on my favorite music and spending 50 minutes in cleaning the house and prepping dinner.

Kelly 48:10

Good on you, girlfriend. Good on you. I actually had written down, um, and just give me a little bit of grace as I'm wording this out. Default roles, right? You had brought up that the default was on your husband, which is for the most part, for the most part, not always the case. Reverse. Yeah. Right. And so has there been um some peeling back of the onion layers as it pertains to that for both of you?

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Yeah, without a doubt. And so the the prior version, when I was, you know, in the bigger roles, the C-suite role at a big law firm, um, I was not my kindest self in relationship with my husband when he was the one who every time a kidda was sick, and our kids were so sick they both have asthma, so every cold took them down. There were it was every other week for years, it felt like someone was homesick. Um, and you know, in my head, it was I I've got to travel, I've got to go to this partner meeting. I'm leading this thing. I have this conference in New York, you know. I I've got to, I've gotta, I've gotta do all this. Yeah. And I did not have as much of the kind-hearted sort of compassion for how difficult being the one who has to drop everything. Yeah. Now that's been the beauty of even my own healing workaround things personally, and like even of you know, childhood things is just a more fulsome understanding of what that looks like and just more I say thank you a lot more and I see. Um, but to your specific question, that role then reversed yet again this year. And I spent about two, two months sort of having my own temper tantrum in my head about it, um, and being really quiet because I was so proud of him for going into the high school, trying something new. Um, he's a security response para, and it has been amazing the connections he makes with the kids.

Kelly 50:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

Um, the principal has said Josh is just a he's a culture changer, and he is. And I just see him light up in different ways. And that means I have to take the dog to the groomer now, and I have to run the shoes up because I got nobody else. I look around my house and there's nobody else to help me with those things.

Kelly 50:28

Nobody else to fall back on. It's Bree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Um, but honestly, it's the greater appreciation. And um, you know, when we talk about things like balance, I look at it this is something new that's coming forward for me more recently.

Seasonality Contentment And Recovery

SPEAKER_00 50:44

I want my life and all the way around everything in it to look more like a performing artist. So, performing artists who records an album, what they do is they have a season where they're like quiet and in creative mode, and it's much more flow state. And this is like from the outside, right? I'm not musical at all. Um, but think of like a Taylor Swift. So you don't see her at all. Yeah, you know, she's doing the things, she's quiet, um, but that's when she's writing and that's when she's doing the creative expression. Then you get into a pre-launch, and there's a lot of momentum, and there's like the post and the drops that she makes, and then there's the actual launch phase where she's out on tour and she's doing the things.

Kelly 51:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

My energy, as I've gotten really clear about where how I want to work, I think flows in that way. Like I want a summer season where I'm prepping for things and my creative expression, and I've got the ideas, and it's warm here in Minnesota, so I actually feel my you know life come back into my body. And then in the winter, we're not like this frozen and just like seasonal affective disorder. Um and then I've got the winter where I want to be going hard because now with the setup that we have currently, the boys are all in school. I have you know less under less humans underfoot, and I can really push something out into the world. Sure. Um, and then spring is gonna be my season where I'm out doing conferences and podcasts and things like that, and then I'm gonna come back to my family. And that's kind of the flow that I want.

Kelly 52:10

I like it. Do you feel like that is uh you obviously have put a lot of thought into this? It can't be like that's something that could continue to sustain, and also understanding that like sometimes we're just gonna have to pivot and things will shift. But talk to me more about how how you got to that thought process because I think it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

Yeah, it came from um again, pain to purpose or pain to you know the path. Um, we moved last year and we listed our home at the end of April. Um, and this is you know kind of an interesting story too. It was very much our dream home. We were on an acre, um, very large footprint, the pool, all the things. Yeah um, and we decided to sell, and our home sold very quickly. We thought we were gonna be nomadic for the summer, and then um two preteens did not react well to what that would mean if all of our stuff is in storage. Where would we live? What do we, you know, it was too much for them. We found a home in St. Michael that we call our home base.

Kelly 53:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:09

Um, the reason I bring that up is what happened on the back end of that move was me feeling like I was at the end of kind of my energy rope. There was nothing, the gas tank was empty. Yeah, I'd gone really hard in my business in Q1, and then Q2 was all the move, just physically moving a large home in three weeks and the shift of that. It was just it was really intense. So we got to the summer, and I was like, I need to work on contentment. I need to work on what does it look like if I am just content with where things are at in my business and my personal life. It was about stillness, it was wrestling with that monster in me that says I always have to be chasing and striving to the next thing. And so I stopped a lot of things. I stopped, I was off of social media for three months. Okay, um, and it was so good. It was wild because even while I was off of social media, some really cool opportunities came through and they found me through my email. So if there's like a little limiting belief somebody has of like my business is gonna die, I challenge that. Um that experience showed me it's possible to have more a seasonality to my work and a recharge time where I put my family ahead of, you know, just even from like an hour by hour. But my husband, we the walks, the what the kids wanted. I said yes to going to places like Dave and Busters or Sook City or you know, where I would otherwise no, I should I need to be doing something. I just let myself off the hook.

Kelly 54:46

I really enjoy this, and I feel like it's something it's resonating in me. Like it's interesting for us as realtors. We have our seasons, right? Like our season is based off of the seasons here in Minnesota. So when it's winter, we we're not transacting as much. Like that, we're not facilitating and getting people into homes. And then there is a period where it just, it's like whoop, and sometimes it's earlier in the year, sometimes it's later. In I should say, sometimes it's earlier in that um Q1, sometimes it's rolling into Q2. And we've got a very short period of time where we got to harvest, harvest, harvest. Like we're we're taking, sorry, we're taking advantage of what the harvest had been, and we're like, we're just we're making it rain, making it rain. And then it it kind of like levels out, yeah, right. And so it's like this is probably a prompt for like Claude or Chat GPT, like, let's talk through this. I think it's so cool. I love it, it's just resonating in me. So when that happens, I've got to make sure that I figure out how can that pertain to my own life.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Yeah. Well, and it's a what you're talking about in a way is, you know, what I've gotten to know about my own body, and I think it's true of most people, is we can't go hard all the time. Elite athletes know this, and this is why the work recovery method is what is infused in what I do because people need to learn how to recover from seasons of grind and oh my gosh, I feel I'm so busy, I'm so packed, I'm running from thing to thing. I is this sustainable? It's like, no, it's not. We need to find ways to recover from that, and whether it's recovery in a seasonality, um, whether it's recovery over the lunch hour or you know, actually using weekends in a more restorative way. A lot of the things, you know, vacations aren't enough. Uh taking just a couple times a day off isn't enough to truly recover from it. Because then we just get back into the same cycle.

Kelly 56:54

Um something tells me that you have some knowledge around this and how it impacts your nervous system. Talk to me about it. I'm very curious.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

I mean, the the modern work currently as it is, and the amount of noise and just inputs that our minds are fielding is significantly greater than at any prior point. And you just think about that, you know, we're hearing about things all over the world, and then you zoom in and at all of these different levels, we're just getting more information, more information. And the nervous system, especially in the work context, if you have a belief that I have to hit it so hard at the exclusion of everything else, um, I gotta grind and just push through, that causes a physical impact. And the nervous system then stays in a fight or fight mode, which is why some of these practices that I mentioned are the things that actually give you that true inner nervous system pause to say, wait a second. Maybe there's a different way to approach the situation. Maybe I need to pause before reacting with a colleague. Maybe I need to go for a walk and remind myself that things are wonderful in the summer. Um, I need to lock my phone away for a Sunday and remind myself what it feels like to just be. There's all different sorts of ways we can recover, and it's not the um sort of self-care as we've been sold in terms of like the mani petty and hair care and things like that. Um, our nervous system needs a different type of nourishment.

Micro Recoveries Breathwork And Self Care

Kelly 58:26

Yeah, I love it. It's actually a nice little segue into talking through what has self-care looked like for you. And I love to, might I just add this real quick, and I'd love for you to answer what you said about how there's this viewpoint of what self-care looks like, like the traditional method of like, oh, I'm gonna go get a manicare, I'm gonna get a peg, I'm gonna get a massage, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna get a facial. And when I asked this question, I'm like, there's so much more to what self-care can look like for you. And it's gonna look different from one person to the other. And so go ahead. I would love to hear more.

SPEAKER_00 59:03

Yeah. So there's a study out there that took a look at 100 well-being studies and evaluated what are the most effective practices to help people recover, to sort of restore inner well-being. And what they found was micro recoveries throughout the day are gonna be your best friend. So a micro recovery, and this is why anybody who's trying to sort of sell, you know, or like the that they have the one solution to this is not quite right because micro recoveries are really they can be scattered throughout your day. That's actually the best thing. This isn't ideally something that you only think about when your workday is done. It's a pause over lunch. It's why, you know, there's a lot of people talking about if you can donate your lunch on your at your computer. Yeah, you know, take that break because the brain actually needs it's kind of like your eyes, you know. If you are reading your computer screen all the time and you're never looking up to the long range version, you forget about the long range that's out there.

Kelly 1:00:01

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

And it's the same on the inside from a nervous system perspective. If we're constantly, you know, in this momentum, this cycle, it's difficult for us at the end of the day to offset that. We need to be offsetting it in a more consistent way throughout the day. So micro recoveries are beautiful. What that looks like for me is um I try to get out for a walk. Um, I'm an avid walker. I love putting the steps in um 10,000, 20,000 steps a day. And um, even in inclement weather, like trying to push out.

Kelly 1:00:31

Um rain or shine, baby. I like it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:34

Uh it was a little less uh candidly so this winter. This winter was tough with some of the cold. So I had and doing it alone when I was doing it with Josh, it was easier. But walks are a big way that I recover. Um, sometimes it's listening to music, and sometimes it's just going out because your the lymphatic system is like so supported by the swinging of the arms. Um, so you get the physical benefit with the mental benefit as well. Um, I often talk to a lot of my clients that it looks like just a pause. And what does a pause mean? It's shutting down the computer or just like stepping away from the computer. Just go sit and take a couple deep breaths. That's enough of a micro recovery. Um, some people do strength training. Like I said, I do a daily practice of meditation. So my ear pod goes in my ear before I go to bed, and that helps me kind of get into the bedtime and also release from the day energy that's not mine to hold, or just anything that I want to let go of.

Kelly 1:01:30

Good for you. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

It works sometimes, you know, in it it always works in terms of feeling better. Yeah, it doesn't always have the outcome of like I had a great night of sleep.

Kelly 1:01:39

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

Um, and then on those really busy days, I love a bath, meditating in the bath, or and then I'll get out and do a breath work.

Kelly 1:01:50

Coach me through, teach me your ways here. Coach me through. I'm I'm a woman who is listening, and it's me. It's Kelly asking this question too, but I'm listening and I'm going, my brain is so scattered. I have a challenging time tapping into that and focusing. What would be a piece of advice you'd offer in that circumstance?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:15

I would encourage breath work. I think most busy women who have tried breath work, a guided breath work. As I breathe. Yeah, yeah. Um, get into so the type of breath work that I practice is called hypno breath work.

Kelly 1:02:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

And there is an app that you can use called Mastery. Um, and it just it's a um three-part connected breath. And what that does for me is it shuts my mind down when I actually have to focus on breathing and keep a pattern, so it's my mind doesn't have the space to worry and to ruminate as much because I'm not a good breather. Most of us aren't in the Western world, we don't take deep enough breaths, and so to focus on a pattern of breath engages my body in a different way that I am able to quiet it down. Um, you can lead yourself through that breathing pattern. Try it for a minute. Try it through there's so many different apps. Insight timer is another great one for free breath work. Um, but I've just found true restoration from breath breath work. Meditation is more the, for me, kind of the the nice to have, the soothing way to end my day. Yeah. But breath work is the thing that moves stuck energy. It moves my anger, my irritation, my frustration, my guilt that I didn't get enough done faster because I'm focusing on my breath.

Kelly 1:03:39

Beautiful. I love it. That's so wonderful. I had a few other things and now it's totally escaping me. I feel like this has been the case the last couple of episodes. I'm like, I literally just had a thought about a question, and now I'm like, This is why I take notes because otherwise I'm like all over the place. I think that where I would like to take this is um curious. You talked a little bit about how you you are seeing the parallels, and you noted a couple of those. Are there any other specific notices that you've had? Like these are the things that I'm starting to notice now. I've been operating my business for three years. Here are the parallels that I'm seeing between building a business and how I'm parenting and being a mom as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:37

Surrender is the word that I think about that is challenging because I like my grip on control. I like to have a plan, have a task, see a goal, get a goal. And in both facets of my life, the more I surrender, the more the good stuff actually comes in. And that can be abundance and opportunities in my business. That can be joy and having fun with my kids. It can be just the positive emotions that I want are actually for me, and this is, you know, in the past really 12 months, on the other side of my releasing my grip a little bit more, going with the flow a little bit more, inviting more trust, that feels very challenging because I have really run 40 years of my life, I'm 41, so 40 years of my life believing that like I had to be the one to do the thing to achieve the outcome. I'm like, what if that grip is actually to a degree blocking my blessings of some of these feelings because it I'm clinging so tightly?

Kelly 1:05:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:49

Um, and motherhood has been the biggest teacher of that. I can shape my children, I can influence them, I can parent and coach and And guide and do all of those things. And they are wonderfully made, unique individuals with their own opinions. And we have taught them to be very expressed in those opinions. And so they're gonna let me know if they don't like dinner, or you know, if um they don't agree with something, or you know, in sitting with that and allowing that, which feels kind of different than how I was parented. You know, there was just a it was a different era, a different time. Kids were out, yeah. I was an outside kid, I wasn't around a lot. Um, I love my books, but I kind of stay quiet, you know, about those things. And uh our kids are are very different, and we're seeing their personalities, and that's you know, their plans for themselves um are different than my plans, and just never thought I'd be a baseball mom. I point blank said I would never allow my boys to play football because uh yet here we are.

Kelly 1:06:55

Yeah, here we are.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:56

And it's you know, those are just some very small examples, but the list goes on and on and on of the things I never thought I'd do or be, or um, and when I have released control and just let it be, like loving what is style. Yeah, I'm a happier, better mom, I'm a happier, better business owner, I am more available in my client relationships, and I have more capacity for the good stuff.

Kelly 1:07:24

Brilliant. I love it.

Scaling Myths And Permission To Pivot

Kelly 1:07:27

I now remember what I was gonna ask you. I wrote it down and it I wrote the these two words building and scaling. As you have been operating your business now, there's these moments that we hit with the business where we understand, like, I'm in build mode right now, but now it's time to scale. Curious if you're there. And then I do also I see so much of what you're doing on social media too. So I do want you to talk the listeners through how that plays into your business plan.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:07

It's been interesting. I um so to the question of the building and scaling, that was very much at the forefront of my mind when I was leading the law firm. Um, I really thought, you know, and in that environment, when you have four partners, the traditional law firm environment says the more associates you have, those are the people who can do the work, and they're your profit and your um net margin engine. So that was really at the forefront of my mind. And I say that because then I got into building my own business and I carried that with me. And I was like, I'm gonna build, I'm gonna scale, I'm gonna, my nine-year goal is to sell the business for multi-million dollars, and I'm, you know, and just like these really big visions for what executive end school was gonna be. Which is it's great.

Kelly 1:08:49

Might I just in interject here because that's great. It is great that you literally threw that out there and you're like, that's what I want, that's what's gonna happen. And then you go, how? You have to back into like that. How do you back into it? Yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:05

No, exactly. And the way that I backed into it from a true business plan perspective was I had the vision that I was gonna be a B2C. I was gonna be working with um, or I say B2C, sorry, B2B. I think business to corporate. Gotcha. Um yeah, but I was gonna be working with corporations and bringing work well-being courses and modules and leadership development into worksplaces. What's been interesting for me is I've actually been unschooling these thoughts that I've had for myself along the way. And in part, I'll say first and foremost, it's because the work that I have most enjoyed doing in my business is working with the human and again, this whole self, which doesn't feel in integrity to ask the company to pay for. Because when I'm doing things like human design or Enneagram, like there certainly is a business benefit. When people feel better in their work, they work better, for sure. And I don't want to have to sort of curate the conversations that I'm having in a way that I feel good about, like for sure, benefiting the company. I don't know. There's like, it's just perhaps pressure I'm putting on myself, but as I collected these learnings along my path as an entrepreneur of this more mission-led business, I have begun to get to know myself better. And scaling is less of a goal for me right now. And so I'm actually recalibrating on many levels of revenue goals of what are the offers that I want to be putting out there, what's the work I most enjoy doing? And I really want to build a community around work recovery. I want to build people who get together on a Zoom and have who have shared and similar experiences and we're elevating and we're learning about say breath work one day, and the next day we're learning about how to have courageous conversations and deliver feedback at work. And it's much, it's like a holistic space for the kind of recovery that I'm so passionate about. And that has redefined the whole business plan. I mean, the plan that I had three years ago, you could shred it. I mean, it's it's um literally pivot.

Kelly 1:11:12

Yeah. The word pivot is just totally in this conversation right now. You go, all right, I'm evaluating what's happening right now, and it's time to pivot. And that's okay. And it rarely, rarely have I seen the individuals who have been on this podcast where you know they they had an initial thought about how the business was gonna go, and I literally feel like I'm in this phase right now, too. Both with the real estate business and then the podcast. Also, you have this idea, and rarely does it ever formulate out to be exactly the way that we thought it was gonna be. It's really funny.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:52

Yeah. And I would say pivot, but also permission. So I've had to give myself a lot of permission because I, you know, am not immune to carrying the baggage from all my prior experiences. And I loved the labels that I had, the titles, the comp, the corner offices. Like it's hard. I'm an Enneagram 3 to release release that. Um and yet that's the unschooling that I'm doing in real time is the permission to be like, okay, the work I most enjoy is going is more likely than not to get me to uh X revenue. It's not necessarily scalable in the same way that like an AI tool is. Sure. You know, or the a software company or an agency, even perhaps. Now, there are things within my business I think I could do way better, and that's why I said like I really have a fraction of knowledge. There's, you know, resources and guides and things that I want to be creating and putting out so that I can one to many, but at very low and accessible price points because I want this information available to anybody who wants it. So that's how I'm recalibrating. And then a big piece of it is this household management and the way I want to show up for my family. And I desire for myself more enjoyment in all areas of my life. And if I were to be building for that level of a multi-million dollar exit, that would be a very different energy that I would have to show up in. There would be no room for the sick kiddo or the lunch, and you know, somebody could push back on that and say, you could, you know, you kid, you know, there are women who do it all, but it looks different than what I the way that I'm showing up for my family currently. And for this season at this moment, I have very few years left with my boys in being in the home, and this feels most right for me right now.

Kelly 1:13:48

I love you seriously for that evaluation. Because there's a crux that women reach when it comes to what is like how am I best allocating my time? I can feel myself getting emotional because I have moments like this where I'm like, what's enough? What is enough? And I think that that was one of the questions that was coming up as you were talking through it too, is like you've had this evaluation of like, what's gonna be enough? Right? What's enough in this season of life? Are we doing good? Are we paying the mortgage? Like, are bills getting paid? And am I am I able to be the kind of mom that I want to be as well? Like that has to be more important.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:33

Yeah, what is enough? I think that there are really powerful questions that most women, probably a lot of listeners, don't ask about what brings me joy? And yes, there's financial realities, and you know, the security that you have is important in the finances. Yeah. But when did we start shelving our joy? Like, why my 30s were like zero joy, sir. Yes, yeah. I was like, you know, you look back and it's like, okay, um, there were good things that happened, there were lessons that were learned. I did absolutely love my work, but not one iota would I say that I felt joy.

Kelly 1:15:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:16

And my podcast is called How Good Can It Get? It's my mantra in everything because I actually want more joy. I want more pleasure, I want more happiness, I want more laughter. And that's the metrics, those are the metrics that I now ask myself, which is, you know, sort of facilitating then this recalibration on the business front.

Joy Advice Books And How To Connect

Kelly 1:15:40

It's so good. I think we're ready to start landing the plane, as I like to say, because we have covered a lot of ground in what it feels like, it feels like a shorter period of time than what it is, Bree. It's a we're going on an hour and 15 some minutes, and I'm like, I feel like we just started. So I feel like that's a good thing. What's a piece of advice you'd give a younger version of yourself knowing all that you know now?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:07

Have more fun. I that relentless striving, and it came from a good place, it came from my childhood of wanting to make other people so proud of me. Um, but I forgot, like, the point is love, the point is joy, the point of this life is to have more cool experiences. Um, and sometimes that does not look like you know, the next ladder, the next rung on the ladder necessarily. Yeah. Um I yeah, so I, you know, don't forget the fun would be the advice I'd give.

Kelly 1:16:43

What's a piece of advice you'd give a woman listening right now that her nervous system is an awful wreck?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:52

Ask yourself, ask your body first and foremost. What would you have me know? Take a moment of quiet, go sit on the floor, go sit in a chair, close your eyes, ask your body, what would you have me know?

Kelly 1:17:05

And maybe breathe while you're doing it too.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:07

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And the reason I say that is the disconnect between the mind and the body is so present for some, for a the listener, the woman who is really at the end there and doesn't have that connection to the body, but I guarantee the body is throwing signals, the body is throwing, I've had enough, I can't do this anymore. Um, too much. So what would you have me? No. And then whatever that answer is, I need a break, I need five minutes, I'm gonna lose it, you know, give it something nourishing in response to that. A walk, a um, a bath, uh meditation, uh, something that nourishes it. Because when someone has cognitively reached that point, the the body's been screaming it for a long time.

Kelly 1:17:58

Have you read Body Keeps the Score?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:00

I haven't read it. It's really interesting because it's um there's the news study that not debunks re the body, but everybody's been saying that, and I'm like, no, no, no. And it's so funny how when a woman has really good research, or you know, it's like the or Mel Robbins, or you know, peop when people are on a pedestal, everybody wants to pull them down. So that's what's happening to your research. The fact of the matter is the new study does not debunk it, and the body absolutely keeps score, it keeps score in a different way in that we acknowledge patterns. That's what they understand about trauma, and the way trauma is passed along is our in our pattern recognition. But the fact of the matter is that when we experience harm, the body knows about it, and it's all those secret pathways, it's the blood pressure, it's the headaches, it's the inability to sleep, it's the eye twitching, yeah, or the crick in the neck, and now you can't twist your neck. Yep. Your body's telling you it's too much. Yep. And it needs more attention. And so let's try to listen to it a little more.

Kelly 1:18:55

I haven't read it, and it's so funny because when Ashley was on, which was a while ago, I literally think that we were talking about it, and I was like, enough's enough. Seriously. Like, so many people have been talking about this book. I bring it up like a number of times on the podcast. So I purchased it and I still haven't read it because wouldn't you know? There's like, I think every single week somebody is on the podcast, there's another book where I'm like, oh, gotta write that one down. Add it to the like literally add it to the growing list. It's just, I feel like I can never keep up. So also, it'd be really nice if like I could dedicate some nice time to just reading a book. I pick one up, I start it, and then I set it down. And I pick up another one because I'm like, this is the one. Anyways. Um what would be who or what would be a good connection for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:57

Who I'm gonna go with on a few different levels. So I have a dream of publishing a book. So people in uh book agents, publishers, editors are beautiful connections for my personal and professional growth, where I want to be going. Um, from a who I serve perspective is the woman who is acknowledging that their way of working is not serving who they want to be in whatever, you know, it we in the next decade. Um, it's typically a midlife uh career professional who, you know, in the late 30s, early 40s, and is looking at the time horizon and the the career that's been built and the time and energy that's been put in, and are saying I want something different.

Kelly 1:20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:46

For who wants to reconnect to joy, wants to reconnect to the good things in life, and um it doesn't require burning the career down either, is what I really want to say. It's really important to I've worked with people who stay in the same role. I've worked with people who've given the notice. Yeah. I've worked with people on the other side of notice, like I as I shared at the beginning, who are um wanting to do things differently as they build their own enterprise in their business. Yeah. So it's it's those flavors, but they've tried maybe traditional professional development or personal development and aren't feeling that lift yet and want somebody to support them through that.

Kelly 1:21:21

So beautiful. I love it. Two more questions, and then I want to get some stuff written down for how people can connect with you. So my husband and I are in real estate, and I have been noticing as we are either touring people through houses or walking into listing appointments and touring through the properties, like there's always a favorite room. What's the favorite room in Breeze Place?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:49

Yes. Oh, great question. Okay, so we like I said, we moved into a much smaller footprint and I walked into this house. It's a Lenar brand new build. It we it's really funny because our whole street, I think the youngest person might be 55, 60 years old because the homes I think are designed with Are they like Villa style? They are, yes. Yes, yeah, and we love it. Um, so our yard work is all maintained, and it's again this home-based so that we can travel and do the things. I walk into the room, the house in a showing. We weren't gonna buy anything, wasn't interested in the sunroom. So it's got just south-facing sunroom over a pond. Yes. If you if if you follow me on social, you will see me regularly post I too am an avid book reader. And I've got my godmother's chair. She passed away many, many years ago, and I have her chair. It's super ratty and doesn't matter to me. It's comfortable. Yes, it's a recliner. I sit in there, and it's just my ultimate happy place. I can watch the sun literally go from sunrise to sunset. And the pond, now the homes are kind of starting to build, you know. So the view is like getting, I need my blinders on, so I can't. Um, but the sunroom is everything for me. And we will be putting a deck on, and then I think I will love it even more. But we don't have a deck out, the sliding door coming in.

Kelly 1:23:00

That's okay. Those things take time because they can be kind of expensive too. And cost of everything is just starting to go up, it's not coming down. So I understand that. Avid book reader, what's the book that you're reading right now?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:14

I believe it's called This Is 40. I think is um, I think that or being 40 or something might be on being 40. Um, it's a Marie Shriver picked up book, meaning she is the um, she works with the publisher and picked the author and has really promoted this book. It's great because it has a chapter for work, a chapter for I think it's health, a chapter for beauty, a chapter for all these different things that change for us as we age. But the it's for me the way she's talked about becoming 40 and just being comfort more comfortable in our skin, saying the things out loud. We're going outside of our comfort zone, but like now we're called mid middle age or midlife. And I'm like, wait, I was too young at 30, I was 32 when I was a chief strategy officer. I was too young then. Yeah. And then as I elevated in my career, now all of a sudden I'm too old at middle age. Like, what what where's the sweet spot for women? Yeah.

Kelly 1:24:07

Um, but I'm just loving how she's talking about aging and the labels that we as women are given is just ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. Like, stop with the boxes and all of this stuff. And how about we just be human beings? Yep. And love each other.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:25

I'm gonna give one more book rec really quick. Um, it's one that I read every day. It's called The Book of Awakening by Mark Neppo. And you read one little, it's kind of like a devotional, but more of an expansive one just in terms of expanding how you think about things, how you see things, gratitude, stillness, the purpose of life. Um, I just love those bite-sized books. They're so good. I think I have it. Awesome.

Kelly 1:24:50

I literally think I have it.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:51

It's got a beautiful, I've got lotus tattooed all over me. Yeah. Like one of and it's got a lotus on the front. I do.

Kelly 1:24:55

Okay. I have it. My sister-in-law gave it to me. Was the book Becoming 40 or This Is 40? This is 40 is a movie. This is a movie. It's a great movie. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:06

I think it's on being 40.

Kelly 1:25:08

On being 40. That's okay. I can look it up. It's all good. How can our lovely listeners get connected to Brie? I already got the podcast, How Good Can It Get. And we'll make sure to drop a link to that. Brilliant. But how else?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:21

Yep. I've got a website Executive Unschool, and I curate a weekly newsletter called the Work Recovery Journal, where I share my own thoughts about something that has come up in my work, as well as links to resources, links to amazing meditations that I've found or breath work practices that I've found. And through the website, you can drop your name and your email address. There's a pop-up and get signed up for that. So you get that in your inbox weekly. Those are gonna be the two best ways. Beautiful I'm on Insta, I'm on LinkedIn. I would love new connections, especially if you're in Minnesota, you're a working mom, come say hi. I would love to hear from you.

Kelly 1:25:58

Beautiful. Brie, such an honor. So fun. I love the uniqueness of the business that you have. I've got several connections for you, and I can't wait to stop this episode, drop the record, and tell you about it. So thank you for carving out the time. I appreciate it. I know you had just a little bit further of a drive, so that's also appreciated too. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:24

Thank you so much for having me. The, you know, I joked about it at the beginning, but hostess with the most. I have felt that since the moment that I met you in our conversation, the way that you hold space, the way that you allow your guests and me to come into your home, the way that your bonus son greeted me and your husband was part of our conversation. It has been lovely and just so good to see you in your elements.

Kelly 1:26:47

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. I hope you have a great day. Thank you. Thanks. That's fine. I would like to try to be quiet, and I'm like, I can cut all of this out. So