EPISODE 020 | Kathy Clair-Hayes: Triggers, Choice Points, and Showing Up

Psychotherapist, astrologer, and energy healer Kathy Clair-Hayes reframes relevance as an inside job: power sourced from within, not granted by systems that prefer women invisible. She walks us through energetic grounding, triggers as choice points, and the shift from absorbing others’ pain to holding a spacious field for healing. We talk anxiety, self-soothing, phones that hijack the nervous system, and why Crone life feels like liberation — gratitude, acceptance, and less certainty that opens more creativity. A wise, practical conversation about showing up bigger with a calmer system.

Key Topics Covered

• Relevance as self-defined power
• Astrology as a practical map for sensitive systems
• Triggers → response over reaction
• Self-soothing and nervous-system hygiene
• Intergenerational wisdom and impermanence
• Crone life — gratitude, acceptance, creative openness

Once you've listened to the podcast, answer this question: Where are you currently reacting on autopilot? Pick one trigger you felt this week, and write a 3-line script for how Future-You will respond next time — breath first, voice second, action last. Share your thoughts with me over on Instagram @crone.rising.official or by email at hello@leecurrie.com.

Crone Rising is for every woman who’s done being quiet and done being small. We’re not here to fade. We’re here to rise — unapologetic, unmuted, and unmissable.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Now that you've had time to think about it, how do you maintain your relevance in a world that wants you invisible?

SPEAKER_00 0:21

So I've been thinking a lot about that question. And the first thing that came to my mind is, well, what do we mean by relevance? Right? Like so it just got me pondering the idea of because to me, relevance says like, oh, you're comparing something against something else.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

So like if we think about if we're in the world and we're we're looking to the world to say, like, how are you relevant? Then based on who we are in the world and who has power in the world, sets up this dynamic with people who have power think they're relevant. People who identify as not having power think they're not relevant. And so that uh so it just said to me, like, well, what's what's the how do you flip that? And I think especially for women, one of the things I've been thinking about and pondering and working on myself is instead of looking externally for permission, or instead of looking externally for like welcoming, then maybe I have to create that within myself first. That maybe really the the work is kind of owning our own power, owning our own relevance, owning our own kind of soul's mission and getting really comfortable with what that is within ourselves and creating it from within, like our own energy system within ourselves. And then that creates more space and energetic power in the world. Because you know, not everyone is, not everyone is, I mean, I think for me, astrology is the other piece that like adds a lens to this, right? Because it feels like we all have a particular purpose for being here in the world. Like we're all here for a reason. Whether we embrace it, know it, or consciously kind of explore it is up to us to figure out. But but I think that for me, astrology gives particular clues around for someone to think about their own energetic system about what they need to feel safe to show up. Because I think so many of us have sensitive energy energy systems, and the world isn't set up for people who are energetically sensitive. And so we end up kind of shutting down in order to survive in this crazy world that's blah, you know, like on fire all the time and crisis, crisis, crisis, and drama, drama, drama. And for those of us who are empathic or psychic or energetically sensitive, it's like, well, that's that's too much information. It's too much of I can't figure it out. I can't manage all the inputs. And so astrology has helped me kind of really get clear on like what does my system need to stay grounded? And as I work on staying more grounded in my energy system, then I actually can hear more my own intuitive voice, and that helps me become more relevant to myself, which I think helps me become more potent and relevant to the people I'm working with. And what is it you do? So I'm a psychotherapist, astrologer, and energy healer.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

So this is this is very relevant to what you do for a living.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and I think that for me, it's you know, when I first think about when I first became a therapist, I think I understood that I had this great capacity to be a healer. But I I thought my role was to take people's trauma and to take people's grief and to take people's depression and anxiety and kind of hold it for them. And that sounds dreadful. Well, it made me really tired, made me depressed and anxious, right? But that my energy system was set up to be kind of very open to other energies. So I when people were talking, I would feel kind of what they were feeling and thinking, and you know, but I thought that's part of what was being a therapist. And it is, but I think becoming a more evolved therapist, like as I've gotten kind of older and wiser, is understanding that that dynamic, that energy exchange in the field of the like when I do therapy now, it's like I'm setting an energetic field, right? And in that field, I hold space for people, I hold the potential of all possibilities for their healing. I don't have to know the answer, but I hold potential for the possibilities. And then instead of me holding the energy, I allow the energy to inform me, to give me information about where we need to shift and change things. And oftentimes it's helping people understand their stories and how they shift and change their stories. So if you grew up in a family that you you weren't seen, right, which I think speaks if you're not if you're invisible in your family, you learn to be invisible in the world. Or you or if your family's dysregulated, you learn to be invisible to stay safe. Or you learn all these different coping things that help you kind of stay safe as a kid. But as we become adults, they're not always adaptive in the world and they don't always let our whole self appear, right? Right. Sometimes these other parts which kept us safe get big and loud and they keep us small, they keep us quiet, or they keep us disengaged from relationships. And so having a space to unpack that and release some of that and expand it. And you know, one of the things I often say to people when they're talking about something is like, well, where'd you learn to do that? But I think it's part of it is coming into your own, is kind of saying, like, okay, like let's get clear on like where my nervous system gets like activated, right? Because that's typically I I think of triggers now as choice points. Okay. Like getting triggered. Oftentimes when we get triggered by something, whether it's a friendship or a relationship, someone says something to us and we're like, you know, like ready to either like ready to either withdraw on like turtle, like let me protect myself, or let me fight or you know, fight it out, or let me just say I'm out of here, like whatever the fight, flare, or freeze response is. We're responding to something from the past when that happens, when it has that much energy. And so if we can get clued into like what our body signs are for when we get triggered, we have this moment where it can be like, I'm triggered.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

And if you have that moment where you can say, I'm triggered before you do whatever it is you would typically do, yes. Take a breath and you can bring your thinking brain back in line and you can say to yourself, Who do I want to be in this moment? How do I want to show up? And then you respond rather than react. Correct. Yeah. And that's that's the beginning of starting to lay a different neurological pathway that says, when this situation comes up, I'm going to respond this way. We keep like stretching our brains to be like, I want to come out of the autopilot response. Triggers are an autopilot response, you know. So can I get to a place where I can step back and have a conversation with myself about am I safe? Yeah, I am. Can I use my voice? Yeah, I can. Do I want to use my voice? Yeah, I'd like to say this, you know, whatever it is. Versus just being on kind of a an automatic trigger point, you know.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Right. Right. So it's like giving yourself permission to be yourself.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Or then or the self you want to be.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Or the self you want to be. And I think it's it's priming the brain because a lot of us, you know, it takes work to do this. And I often say to clients, like, the first time when you start first doing this, you'll be like three days later, you'll be like, oh, I should have, this is what I should have done. Like you'll catch it way down the pike. Oh, I was triggered three days ago. This is what I should have done. Right. And as you do that and bring it to more and more awareness, it starts getting closer and closer to actually when it's happening. To the point that you'll be able, when it's happening, to be like, I'm gonna trigger. Because you're prep, you're kind of by be bringing it to awareness, you're prepping your brain to start being like, Well, how would I want to respond? Right. How do I want to respond when this person says something outrageous to me? How do I respond when someone's ignoring me? You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do I want to kind of show up and take and show up and take up space or show space? And I think some of that for me is also just allowing my energy field to be bigger, allowing me to show up and hold more capacity and an actual like energetic space means you show up differently in the world than if you're kind of shrinking or holding your light in, you know? And I think our world these days needs a lot more for us to be holding bigger, light-filled energetic space because it's not. Anxiety is something that's here for a reason. Like we're not always supposed to feel no anxiety. And it means that we're in the place that secret spot of the unknown, because we don't know what's going to happen.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

But for a lot of people, like the anxiety shuts them down and they withdraw and they back off. And I think it's we really have to help the younger generation understand. Like you need to modulate things you're you don't go here, you know, you don't go to a 10 in anxiety, yeah, but like a five or six is normal, and that's okay. And it means you're on the cusp of doing something new and interesting. So many people like it's become, I think, because we've our energy systems have been hooked into these other things. And I actually think whether it's I get these clients or whether there are more clients in the world like this, I think a little bit of both. I think we're becoming more energetically sensitive as we as people evolve and as people grow up, because it feels like the younger generation is very attuned to energy, you know? And so, and a lot of times when you're attuned to energy, it feels like anxiety at the beginning. As a therapist, I work with a lot of people whose parents did not teach them to self-soothe, right? So that's the work of therapy is learning to self-soothe. And I think as parents, our big job is helping our kids learn what are the things that help you calm down? What are the things that help when your nervous gets jacked up, what helps you kind of come back to ground? You know, I think we all have to learn how to come back to a grounded place. We're all gonna be in trouble, you know.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

Yes, I have so many crafts in my house and books, and like, because that was really important to me was teaching each one of like like like I never learned this until I was now years old, uh, that you don't have to be good at it to love doing it.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

But but it but I think that that's you know, for a lot of people, their thing that helps them, they think the thing that helps them with the nervous system is their phone. And guess what? That's what's keeping you hijacked. Yes, yes. Hijack. So so we all have to learn how to step, like whether it's getting back into nature, whether it's reading the book, what whatever it is that takes you back outside, back outs like outside of yourself, outside the reality of what's happening, and back like to internal connection to be like, oh, here I am.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Yeah, this whole evolution of self into, you know, so we've gone through the whole, you know, the maiden bit, which rocked, it was fantastic. I had a great time. Motherhood was fabulous, I had a great time. But Crone, nothing beats Crown. Like Crown is honestly all this is the best part.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

And how do you celebrate your croness? Like how do what do you feel like that's allowed you to step into?

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Yeah, it's just allowed me to be really appreciative. You know, so I I live like in a constant state of gratitude, which is very foreign and but wonderful. So even though it doesn't stop shitty things from happening, but I can reset myself much quicker because I'm just grateful for everything that I have, you know, and and I work hard at it.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

You know, my hope is is that the conversations between generations can be kind of wisdom. Like, here, let me can I can I give you a step up from having to make the same mistake I did? Or can I give you some wisdom? Yes, kind of journey with you on the way. And I think one of the things that happens as you get older is you learn that everything is temporary, even the hardest points of your of your life did not last forever, you know, and breathing helps. You know, like anything. A lot of our pain and suffering is is because we are stuck in a story that says life should be something different. I think that's one of the benefits of getting older because I feel the wisdom is like, wow, like what I thought I knew has evolved and changed and shifts. So you kind of have this openness to like, I actually don't, I know less now than I did then, right? You know, your certainty is less, but it actually opens you up to more creativity. It opens you up to your own. It opens you up to like, oh, this is interesting, let's see where this leads. You know, feeling like it has to have a purpose or a reason, or this is why I'm doing it. When we're younger, I think at least that's what I felt. It's like you had to have a reason why you were going to grad school. You had to have a reason why you were working that job, or yes. And I'm not sure that's as I've gotten older, it's become more flipped. I think as I've leaned more to my own intuitive, you know, capacities and and journey that it's not linear, so I don't expect it to be.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Thank you. Is there anything that happened during this conversation that surprised you in any way?

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Did anything you say just um back and seeing like wow, we have learned a lot. Yeah. And I still I feel like the older I get, the younger I am, right? So I feel like I'm actually like reverse aging, but because I'm more willing to try new things, I'm more willing to risk, I'm more willing to, you know.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Oh yeah, I think when we're younger, we're definitely risk averse.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Right. Because I think for a lot of us when we've made mistakes, they felt shame or we felt like we messed up or you know, that kind of thing. So I think it's only in hindsight that you can kind of see the wisdom in it. But it's also how our parents, you know, raised us in society in terms of what they they deem are appropriate mistakes and what aren't, you know. So um which ones send you in jail, which ones you're gonna do. Oh, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

So yeah, well, it was so funny because somebody had asked me what was my how did I measure my success as a parent? And I said, Well, nobody went to jail. Yeah. Um was there anything that surprised you about the conversation? Well, you're just always so smart and wise and and you know, like it's I always love talking to you because you there's always something. I I I'm gonna have to go through the whole and oh, I didn't know that. Okay, that's interesting. You know, the whole Alaska thing. What?

SPEAKER_00 15:05

You went to Alaska for a year? That that probably was the biggest risk I took was I like chose to go to Alaska not knowing anything about what I was gonna be doing or how I mean I knew I was gonna have a job and live in this community, but yes, you know, that I think that was probably one of my my more risky times. I learned a lot.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

I was always told no to pretty much everything I wanted to do. So I tend to say yes to everything.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Even if it is, let's say, a little bit more risk than I would have. Like I don't think I would have gone to Southeast Asia for eight weeks.

unknown 15:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

You know, but I'm not gonna tell my kid no.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Conscious parenting is kind of like, okay, like I maybe have parents who want it who played it safer, who didn't want me to risk, and that cut me back a little bit more. So, how do I support my kids in the safe way to take risks that you know they want to do? Yeah. You know, take away those barriers. I spend my so many couples that I work with, like are just unconsciously doing what was modeled for them and their families, which is why no one knows how to do it. No one knows how to communicate with a partner, you know. So um, I think it's we have to unlearn a lot of things to grow and to shift and change.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

But thank you, my friend, for well, thank you. No, this is fantastic. And um, yeah, it'll all be distilled down to 15 minutes. You will hear very little of me. And