EPISODE 022 | Kirsty Spence: What’s Necessary Next

In this insightful and energizing episode of Crone Rising, scholar-educator Kirsty Spence joins host Lee Currie to explore what it means to live with clarity, curiosity, and a refusal to be invisible. From the lecture hall to life beyond academia, Kirsty shares her reflections on value versus visibility, the art of saying no, and the freedom that comes from relentless discernment — in work, relationships, and the stories we tell ourselves.

Together, they unpack the liberation of boundaries, the necessity of emotional regulation, and the courage to name injustice without apology. With humour and heart, Kirsty reveals how she’s learning to ask not why me, but what’s necessary next — a question that becomes both compass and ritual in midlife.

With warmth, wit, and wisdom, this conversation reminds us that relevance isn’t bestowed — it’s claimed through intention, integrity, and self-trust.

Key Topics Covered:

• The difference between visibility and value
• Boundaries, discernment, and emotional regulation
• People-pleasing recovery and time sovereignty
• Reading for pleasure as a sacred act
• Naming injustice without losing grace
• The Artist’s Way and the power of “what’s necessary next”
• Relentless editing — of spaces, stories, and selves

Once you’ve listened to the episode, reflect on this: Where in your life are you still seeking visibility in spaces that no longer deserve your energy? What would it mean to pivot toward value instead — and take one small, necessary next step that’s entirely your own? Share your thoughts with me over on Instagram @crone.rising.official or by email at hello@leecurrie.com.

Crone Rising is for every woman who’s done being quiet and done being small. We’re not here to fade. We’re here to rise — unapologetic, unmuted, and unmissable.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Welcome to Crone Rising. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. This is this is lovely. I can't wait to get to know you better on a Chrome level. So tell me, what do you do to maintain your relevance in a world, society that wants to keep you invisible?

SPEAKER_01 0:33

I guess, you know, when I think about that question, I have a question that immediately comes to mind. And I wonder if I can ask you a question. Sure. Because I spent some time reflecting on the pivotal question that guides all of your conversations through this podcast. And I wondered how you came to this question to make it so central in this podcast, because I don't think I know the origins.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

I guess it was primarily triggered. I went last uh year to um MEA, which is Modern Elder Academy in Santa Fe, and I was being uh taught a course by Karen Woolrand, who wrote uh Radiant Re Rebellion. Uh when I was there, Chip Conley, who runs MEA, he uh went through all of the studies and the, you know, like when do people when is middle age? You know, there's an argument. Could be 35, could be 45, but generally within there, and it's getting younger, in the studies, women believe they become invisible as we age. Okay. And basically what it did was crystallize this idea that I had in my head, because I hadn't even thought about doing a podcast, but it was like, wow, I wonder if that is how people feel. I personally don't. I know an awful lot of people my age. I'm curious to know are these studies reflective of the women that I spend my time with? Or is it an anomaly? Is it you know, how how can you have all this data leading to someplace that I never would have considered? I just wanted to figure out if that's how my friends are my guests, because it all starts with people I know. And I did realize that when you curate a group of friends, you're generally curating a group of people who think more like you than not like you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

So I like, okay, I need to branch out and find people who are like, yeah, I feel really invisible. Or, you know, Lee, you're you're full of crap, you know. I've had a few of those. And I've had, and the one I edited yesterday was, yeah, I feel totally invisible. So anyway, that's a very long way of answering your question.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

No, that's helpful because I mean, there's certainly, you know, some myths or memes or stereotypes around aging and around women and around men, uh, gender differences. You know, I think from the get-go, I would say I'd I probably would say I feel invisible in some areas, but largely not invisible in most areas of life. Even there's part of me that prefers to be invisible in some parts of my life. So I guess I'd start out by thanking you for answering that question because that came to the fore for me. Maybe it's occupational hazard. I went through the question and I was, well, what does relevance mean? And what do societies mean? You know, and I guess, you know, left with my own reflections about what those mean, what those terms mean. I kind of took relevance to mean, you know, being closely connected to something, something maybe that's pulsating like largely within society. And then I took societies to mean sort of like it can be broken down, like to mean various different, like the family society or my phone society or my work society, or you know, and those groups can kind of flex and flow. For me, how do I maintain my relevance? I guess, I guess it's a question I've never thought about because I feel like my my work, I wonder about how this will change after I stop, because I feel as though working with younger people has been a built-in mechanism to avoid, like there's no, there's no choice but to maintain my relevance within the society called, you know, the students that I teach. One one thing that I feel as though I've been led to is wonder if I'm of value. I know I'm highly visible in front of a lecture hall of 250 students, like you can't not be visible. But my major concern is, you know, am I am I relevant? Am I still of value and or am I full of shit?

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Well, have you given thought to what's gonna happen when work is no longer work?

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I am a person who likes to work. Um I'm I've been very fortunate throughout my career to um be in really interesting contexts and largely working alongside people who are focused on, you know, kind of I mean it sounds cheesy, but excellence. Or I I tend to surround myself with people who I can learn from and who I admire um and who push me, and and maybe you know, there's some of that reciprocated from me. Um so I'm really lucky to have worked in some amazing educational contexts in that regard. Um, and alongside, you know, 35 years of working in Canada and the States, and I was in Russia for two years, and I was in Taiwan for three years, I learned some things that I feel as though will carry me beyond sort of the formal context, like the voracious reading and the you know, hopeful, voracious writing. But yeah, I think that there's some built-in skills that I will always use in in future endeavors. Um, but I think that's where the part about societies come come to play. Like, you know, do I have a choice in choosing the societies in which I want to be relevant, in which I want to be visible? Who do I get to hang out with? How do those contexts, how do those societies change? Um, what do I believe about myself? You know, there's some societies that I don't give a hoot about remaining relevant to and and don't care if I'm invisible to. I was involved in some people pleasing. I would I wouldn't have identified with that term so much, but it like it comes about in the idea of not being able to say no. So pleasing other people's agendas, um, which is a form of people pleasing. But if somebody were to say, oh, Christy, you're you're such a people pleaser, I'd I'd have said, Oh, I don't know. Or wanting to be like, or, or appearing a certain way to be liked, to be, you know, to put pleasing in that kind of interaction. And that's something that I'm trying to really abolish or just eradicate. Like it's just a lot of energy that's not needed in in the scheme of things, especially given time flying by so fast and time was short. Yeah. So in terms of losing friends like that I thought were dear, I mean, that certainly has happened as I age, which is heartbreaking, but probably for a reason in the whole scheme of things.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

I'm very much an introvert, which I think helps because I can be really firm in my boundaries. Because I don't have everybody in the world after me, and I also don't need everybody in the world to like me.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Yeah, I would say I resonate with those words. I mean, somewhere along the line, it became less important. My own energy, my own time to regroup on my own energy became much more important than adhering to a sort of constructed social calendar. I mean, in my twenties, when I think about my twenties and thirties, I think about like the train wreck that I was in a very delightful way, where I would make plans to break them, to make other plans to break those and then go on a third kind of junket and you know, then have to deal with the record wreckage and trying to ultimately please everyone that I remain non-committal to. You know, that that kind of evened out over time. And certainly, you know, my 40s and 50s, I definitely feel much more regulated emotionally in terms of being able to commit uh to myself, most of all, in terms of what I need. And I think that's still a learning in progress in terms of what is it that I really need. Because I, you know, sometimes I divert in thinking, and this isn't from attention deficit, really. It's it's more from the variety, the pulp the palette of variety in life. Oh, a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Oh, that sounds really nice. Well, how distracting can all of that be? You know, this idea of downsizing and maybe this this kind of maintaining your relevance, I mean, I think it's a really highly personal question, actually, in terms of what do you really need? You know, so I think about the Camino that my husband and I were walking last summer in Portugal, didn't need a whole lot, similarly, you know, the backpack on our back. And then since we've been back, I mean, all fall and into the new year 2025, we've been um transitioning um houses to my dad's house eventually, which is only three kilometers away, but it's you know, it's a smaller space. And so I've um I've been the, I guess it turns out, pack rat of 30 almost five years of educating. I kept everything. I kept every card, every letter, every ever, ever, every. So I think about these kinds of trips that force you to take only what you like, what you truly need. And if you're conscious about that, what you don't bring probably appears um to your to your aid when is needed, when you're on the trip. And I also think about a couple that I know that were downsizing into a condo, and the one that they used to downsize their stuff was relentless. And it stays, it has stayed with me because I'm still not being relentless in my downsizing. Yeah, I mean, that process has started, and I think it's one that will sit with me, like that question, what do I really need in terms of interests, in terms of stuff, in terms of art desires? Uh, I think that'll be something that I'm kind of sussing out as I go along because I think a lot of my points of reference over my life have been external for others, for students, for my family, for my partner. And it's not to say I don't think about myself, but I don't often ask myself the question continuously, what do I need?

SPEAKER_00 10:52

I'm I'm far from a fatalist, but I really believe that if it's meant for you, it'll find you. And, you know, the whole Joseph Campbell, you know, you walk one step toward the gods, they'll take 10 steps toward you. So whatever like I really believe that what I'm looking for is also looking for me. Right. Yes. And it's a really different way of looking at things, certainly not how I was brought up to see the world, but it does provide me with a lot of comfort through the day, like every day. It's kind of like I'm I'm doing the best I can. And because you can't do anything more than that. And I truly believe that my life is, I have enough. And I do have a girlfriend who's been writing these books on rage, women's rage. And she said, Oh, I need to interview for you for this because you were the most rageful person I've ever met. And I said to her, Oh, okay, so that was so that was one of the things I basically gave up. I totally and I had like forgotten. Oh yeah, I was a walking ball of rage. And then I don't know what happened, but one day I basically woke up and realized this is not serving me.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

I don't know if I would have ever said that I was rageful, but I certainly feel I'm I'm saying to my husband and and to some other select few, you know, I'm my book's gonna be like, what it's gonna be entitled, What the fuck is wrong with people? Or you know, and so so when things are are coming up where I'm like, I'll just say that out loud. What the fuck is wrong with people? And in any case, I mean I can understand like the idea of going Karen in a way in the past couple of months that I've never actually experienced before, where it's like maybe this is like you you reach the chrome threshold where it's like I I don't care, I'm gonna go from zero to a hundred because what's happening is socially unjust, or what's happening is just like not on. And I've noticed that about myself where I will be quick to move into a space where could be with a bank teller, could be like a like thankfully and frequently a colleague at work where it's just like you're being X-Y, and you know, so I I think my development of my patience, you know, definitely I have developed patience over time, but it can go in a flash. And I can understand how like I mean the whole idea about going Karen is is, you know, like I I truly don't resonate with that, but on the same token, it's you know, when women are socialized as girls to be pleasers or to be good girls, or you know, to do the thing that you know you don't want to do, but you do it anyway to you know to satisfy, to socialize, to you know, it's like at what point do you like just give that up and step into a place of like, hey, this is just not on? Well, I think women are are accustomed to being in relationship. And you know, equity and fair-mindedness, I think, you know, are are sort of um, I'm not a gender studies expert, but I I think they're more feminine kinds of qualities. Communion is a more feminine kind of quality, whereas masculine agentic independence um seems to seems to move along more masculine lines. What we see in terms of this polarization in the world is is definitely toward, I feel toward more of a toxic masculine direction. So I think it, you know, this attuning to more democratically we space kinds of places is is much more akin to I think what we're socialized toward, but I I think it for all people, for all humanity, I mean it I think the stakes are pretty high, and the case, the strong cases can be made in terms of pretty positive health outcomes when we uh kindly toward our our fellow person, you know. One thing that I wanted to uh to mention was I would I've been moving my way through uh the artist way, I'm sure you've heard of it by Julia Cameron.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

And uh myself and a buddy were kind of going through it and doing some of the exercises. And yeah, and there was there was this um little framework that she had, and I thought that that the framework was relevant for our talk today. In terms of actually like this idea of how do we maintain relevance, I guess that's for somebody else to decide. But in terms of my own relevance, what I would say about that is, you know, to be maintaining action, stepping forward in action in whatever realm, whether it's you know, hey, I'm gonna try pickleball for the first time. I haven't gone down that road yet, but I'm gonna try it, you know, whether it's that thing that I'm avoiding. But she talks about ask how instead of why me, ask what next instead of why me, and what is necessary next, which helps me move forward. And I think this idea of being open to yeses to myself in taking those steps, that's a way for me to connect to relevance in terms of that whole domain of like what is it that I need? Even if it's one small step toward that which I think I need, it's still that one step that's been taken.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

And I think now that we're crone, we have the time to do it because we are not being productive.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

I am pre-crone then. If that is the definition of crone, I am pre-crone. However, I think in my pre-crone days, I'm also COVID was the best for me in terms of getting me back to reading for pleasure. Um, and now it's it's been something that I will not forsake, no matter, you know, whatever research project that I'm working on and having to write up, or I will make time to indulge in either writing groups that are not academically based or reading for myself. And yeah, I mean I think that's just that's just crucial. As I and it serves as a bridge to kind of have those, you know, to navigate into Chrome days because I won't be, you know, just abruptly stopping these projects. I do believe in leaving space for all voices, you know, just from a standpoint of being human and allowing people to be who they are. I mean, I can't expect people to be nice if people were all like you and I, Lee, but uh we can hardly expect that.