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Pains Purpose
A joint exploration into the nature of life in a way that empowers each of us to be who we are.
Pains Purpose
# 9 - Holding the "Tension of Opposites"
This episode is a heartfelt exploration of how holding the tension of opposites, a concept inspired by Carl Jung, can help us find peace amidst the chaos.
We venture further into the tension between expectations and Reality, drawing wisdom from Viktor Frankl to understand the crucial space between stimulus and response. Sharing personal stories, we explore how inner work and meditation have supported us in moments of emotional turbulence, allowing us to show up with compassion for loved ones in crisis. We discuss how past experiences shape our present and how Grace, understanding, and compassion transform our relationships.
In the final part of our conversation, we delve into the delicate dance of intimacy, accountability, expectations, and self-awareness. Through personal stories, we highlight the nuances of nurturing deeper connections with ourselves and others, emphasizing the importance of accepting help and goodness in diverse forms. Through stories of resilience and growth, we discuss the power of releasing preconceived judgments to embrace Life's unexpected beauty and gifts, ultimately revealing our capacity to rise above adversity with grace.
Here are the book and meditations referenced in the episode.
Wheel of Awareness - Dr. Dan Siegel
https://drdansiegel.com/wheel-of-awareness/
An Invitation to Love by Thomas Keating
https://www.audible.com/pd/Invitation-to-Love-20th-Anniversary-Edition-Audiobook/B0BPT4WYRY?source_code=ASSGB149080119000H&share_location=pdp
Go donkeys, go donkeys. Welcome to Another Pain's Purpose. I'm Evan Fitzgerald.
Speaker 2:And I'm Sarah Fitzgerald.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining us and for hanging in there while we are trying to figure out what we're doing. We have tried to record this podcast quite a few times and have ran up against some struggles. My physical capacity is not where we would hope it would be, so mentally it it strains on that. So being able to say anything that's worth saying is something we want to make sure we're doing, so we're not just asking you to listen to nonsense. So if we're going to produce something, we want it to be good. So thank you for holding on and waiting until this episode, which hopefully will be good. We're going to talk about some really important things that have made a huge impact on my life, and I think they're relevant right now. But before we get into that, I just wanted to give an update on the family and where I'm at with my health. Those who've been listening have an idea of what's happening with me. Basically, my lungs are getting tighter and tighter as time goes on, and it's even affecting how I can talk, and so that's been a struggle obviously. That's been a struggle obviously, and we're just trying to find things along the way that are going to relieve some of that physical stress that seems to be progressing, and we've tried a lot of things pharmaceutically that almost destroyed my body, and now we're moving more in a holistic way of incorporating some of that medicine, because I really can't function without some of the steroids and other things that the doctors have me on. I wish I didn't have to use them because they're pretty toxic to your body, but I'm on some of those still trying to reduce the high dose and to do that we've just been trying to figure out how to optimize nutrition, and sugar has been an issue apparently for me, because I've gotten off it and it really hasn't made a big difference in my flaring, like how bad my inflammation my lungs get and how long that lasts. I think I'm also doing some other stuff, though, so it's hard to say exactly. So that's been one thing. I've also tried creatine, which you might look at me and think always once a meathead, always a meathead but it honestly is a good supplement that helps with energy on the cellular level, and I've been really, really struggling with energy and I think it's something that's helping. There's some good studies out there that says basically it's good for anybody with chronic fatigue. You know, don't quote me on that because there's plenty of studies. I'm sure that will counter that if you have kidney disease or other things like that. So just something to be aware of that might help, because I wanted to put this out there, these podcasts, so that we could help other people in similar situations, and so if it seems like something that is worth it or is calling to you, then look into it.
Speaker 1:The other thing is CBG, which is something that I use when I've taken my THC a little too high, because I use cannabis to deal with the constant pain I have an air hunger type pain that I deal with as well as like how I think about is my lungs.
Speaker 1:The cartilage in there are just solid and all the soft tissue is supposed to move with those and instead my soft tissue moves around these hard cartilage type structures that aren't moving like they should. So there's a lot of pain when there's any type of activity, especially excessive type aerobic activity, and CBG helps me deal with the everyday type of lung function that I need to be using to just be a dad and husband and be alive, and so using those in combination helps take the stress off the THC receptors so that the CBG can kind of take over. It's not as powerful as dealing with pain, but it is very powerful in my opinion, and it's something that you can just find online. Justcanna is a website that's helpful, so that's some stuff that I wanted to share. Practical wise, is there anything else, as far as what's going on with this, that we should share?
Speaker 2:no, I mean not besides what, the podcast you know yeah, topic is about there's a reason we're sharing this. Yeah, yeah no, I think you summed it up great cool, all right.
Speaker 1:So the podcast is titled holding the tension of opposites, but it could be probably titled a lot of different things. That's a weird, obscure way to to phrase it. But there's a reason we did it and it's because of this amazing quote by Carl Jung. And he, the last 15 years of his life was spent dealing with the Cold War and he was in this psychological club in Zurich when somebody asked him basically what he thought might happen. Obviously, a terrible, scary time. Everybody was threatening. You know well, the two main sides, the Soviets and the US, were threatening nuclear war. And this is what Carl Jung said in response to if he thought we were going to go to nuclear war. He said it depends on how many people can stand the tension of opposites in themselves themselves. And he elaborates on that. But I wanted to just pause on that, because what I hear in that and I think we need right now is this reminder that it depends on all of us. We can't anymore look at another person and blame them for the reason the world isn't okay, because it really does start with us, and that's what we want to talk about here. So what does it mean to hold the tension of opposites. It's seeing how our expectations and reality aren't in alignment and then seeking that alignment. It takes knowing that there's a difference between the way we think things and expect things to be and the way they actually are, so it comes out in judgment. A lot Our judgments aren't actual truth or fact right, and there's a tension of really what we see in a person and actually what's happening in that person. And being willing to hold that tension of this is what I perceive, but this is also what I know, and I know that I don't know half of the story. And having that knowing and unknowing tension inside of you is not an easy thing to stand, and if there's a high stress situation, I've found, though, that it will basically defuse a lot of the excess energy that we find there. So that's why I found it so helpful.
Speaker 1:So the tension is between relationship, like me and you, and it's a tension of like liberty, my freedom and justice, what what I deserve, or rights and responsibility, because my rights are dependent on your responsibility, and vice versa, and it's a complex thing to think about because it's paradoxical, but as we do and as we contemplate the ways that we can hold that tension, we'll find that it really opens up space for this freedom that we all crave and want.
Speaker 1:It really opens up space for this freedom that we all crave and want, and at the root of it is our ability to hold the intense fear and love and the darkness and the light, and experience life as it comes and all of it right, not being just partial to part of it the light, when the darkness has a lot to teach us and being able to see that there's truth in both sides is where we can find freedom.
Speaker 1:And Viktor Frankl said it really good, and I'll just stop after this so you can share your insights on it as well. But this is a quote I've used ever since I was teaching firefighters how to be wellness coordinators, and we're teaching firefighters how to respond. A wellness coordinator is trying to prepare another firefighter to be fit to respond, basically, and so it's important to know that there's a space between stimulus and response, and that's where this Viktor Frankl quote is vital. I think he says between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response, and in our response lies our growth and our freedom.
Speaker 2:I like that. Sorry, that just came. Yeah, no, I liked how you said like with the darkness, because I think it's that you found like growth from that, because you've been there before. So yeah, so this past little bit of our lives we were had a situation that is very close to home. But I also was impressed by both of us. I was proud of us and I think it shows, I guess, our growth but also some people that have been in those dark places that could help be there for others and show up as our higher selves. And, like I don't know, it makes me emotional because, as you were talking, I was just like Feeling it all yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think I cried, dang it, but I don't know like I was proud of you and how you showed up, like I said. So just some details, not everything or sharing someone else's story. But there was a situation that got out of hand and we were able to help someone that we love and care about and kind of help, set a boundary that needed and a line that needed to be drawn.
Speaker 2:that wasn't, and you came and I it was that a really intense moment, very intense somebody was in your face and threatening you and we were both there out of love and support and I thought it was cool how you didn't let that affect you. You, you know, I think a lot of people, our old selves, would have been very like quick to, you know, throw a punch or to prove that I'm stronger yeah, have our ego get in the way, and it was just like it was.
Speaker 2:It was really cool to see as much as like I still have a lot of emotions, it's still fresh and stuff like it really was cool that like we both coming away from it was like, okay, how can we improve? How could we have done that better? Yeah, and we both had nothing to say. We both felt like we did what we needed to do and that's because, like you've put it, we both put in the work but like you've done a ton of like growth and self I don't know, yeah, inspection and just kind of done what you needed to do, and it probably also helped that you just got done meditating, but, um, I don't know. Just I guess that's kind of all I want to say on that subject. As far as I was just like proud of you and the way that you showed up. Thank you, babe.
Speaker 1:It actually means the world to me, and that's what I want. I want to be free to be able to do that, to be able to show up for you in the way that you need, because I love you so much. And it's so frustrating in the past when I haven't been able to do that, and the reasons for that is what we want to get into here. But, yeah, I think it is worth reiterating that the gifts of working to hold the tension of opposites are that we can show up for people when they need us the most, because we can recognize it. I think to have that capacity requires us to go into those dark places too, and there's no way we can lead somebody through those unless we've gone through them ourselves. So you can't take someone where you haven't been. And so how is the question and I don't want this to be like, oh, we're so great because it's not We've been in some really dark spots and the only reason we can or, speaking for myself, I can maintain compassion is because I know that that capacity for whatever I'm seeing is also in me, um, and that's taken a lot of work to be with and to to find peace and hold. So that's really when we work through our struggles and allow them to shape us.
Speaker 1:That's also working with tension of opposites. It's the tension of what we want life to be and what it actually is. And for me, there's some very important things that I've done that really have helped with that, and every one of them have reminded me of the basic goodness of life and that trust in that life is good, because I'm in this position that people can look at that's, you know, maybe with pity or with sympathy, and in reality I see it as a higher education for my soul and I've embraced it as that and I'm so grateful for it. And it's not to say that every single day is it intensely painful and a struggle. But now there's a larger goodness, that basic goodness of life, that that holds all of it, um, in a way that I couldn't do alone.
Speaker 2:So well, and I think that too I mean, I guess that's what I was also saying is, you're allowing God to work through you, but also, at the same time, you are in pain every minute, every day, and so I guess, like not everyone could have showed up in that same way with, like you know, under sorry my throat's closing no you're good Understanding and just like because, yeah, you just were able to put you know someone's I don't know the right wording, but just someone before you like, because you've been there in the dark places and that you can.
Speaker 2:I don't know Like. I was worried for just about like five seconds. I'm like, oh man, he can go to zero to 100. Like how is he going to respond if someone's in his face like that, you know, threatening him? And I just was like in awe because I was like, oh wow, like I couldn't say that I would have been there because I was not in pain, you know, physically at the moment, and I was like trying to just take some deep breaths and not lose my crap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you did excellent, babe. I thought I stood out, you know, apart listening because I knew that I needed to trust you and that I could trust that you would handle yourself well, even though the situation was very unstable and very scary. So I think the work that we're both doing, it benefits us, you know, together too, like somehow the work that you do makes me stronger and the work I do hopefully does the same for you.
Speaker 1:But there were angels there too yeah, and that's another thing that I think we need to realize that it is grace in those moments that we rely on and that make us able to hold all of those things that we couldn't hold otherwise. And this is how I've been able to access that part and to have it be something that is sustained in everyday life and shows up to support my true intention, which is to be a loving husband and father and family member and community member. So the tension for me started when I was young and I think it's probably important to talk about how we went through our process and for me. I dealt with a lot of bullies. After my dad died, I had to go back to school in the third grade and he died while I was in the second grade. The kids were relentless and I remember getting wedgies. I remember my pogs getting stolen and it was just brutal. And I look back and laugh until now because I can feel that now I know that that little guy was hurt, because I see what happened after.
Speaker 1:And when we moved to Mountain Green I just turned into the worst bully. Every recess I was looking for a fight because it was a new area. I was so insecure I was, you know I had safety and security for me were always kind of unstable ever since my dad died, and so I tried to show life that I wasn't afraid by fighting that back. You know type. I think that was my attitude. And then, after I got found out for fighting in school, my mom had to pick me up numerous times. There was times I ran away from elementary and my sister found me when she was going to lunch at high school and they brought me back and they thought it was hilarious. But at the time I was just in insane amounts of torment, undescribable. I remember the same school that my teacher drug me out by my feet because I just wouldn't go to the principal's office and hang it onto the doorframe, just aching inside but making a spectacle of myself, you know, to try to do something with all of that pain. I'd even laugh at that.
Speaker 1:But there was this one moment that just grabs me that I can't deny, and it reminds me of all the underlying pain under that time, during that time and it was was when it was just this Halloween parade and my mom didn't give me the makeup or the outfit or whatever that I needed. I just didn't feel seen was the point and I get pulled back there. I'm sorry and it just is so emotional because it was just so lonely, so scary, and that's where that bully was formed. It's like, how do I deal with all this? And so luckily I had good friends and my mom was present enough to get me some help and I had good support systems to reflect the best in me.
Speaker 1:Over time, to where you know, the bully shifted into me being more of a verbal bully, like around the fifth grade, and very sarcastic and mean that way, probably up until I don't know five years ago I started to work hard on it. So we have these ways of approaching life as ways of protecting that were formed when we were young, you know well-meaning, as ways of protecting that were formed when we were young, you know well-meaning, good, maybe helped us survive, but at some point we got to realize that those are damaging these higher levels of being, yeah, they were.
Speaker 2:Survival, you know, yeah For us, and it doesn't mean that's like where we need to keep operating and pulling from. It's like, no, it helped you get through that, but like now, let's grow. Exactly I think that's cool, that you're able to look back and like realize where that came from. Instead of having like shame or guilt, you're just like. It's just like understanding, it's just like a friend to yourself.
Speaker 1:Exactly A friend to myself. Yeah, yeah, and it's taken a long time to have that perspective because for the longest time, I hated that guy and I had to figure that out because it was starting to project on my oldest son and I'm still figuring it out and luckily, in time to where I feel like we have a good, decent relationship, where I've said and done some things that were bully-like and I've been able to apologize and he's been able to start apologizing and learning how to do that, and it's all for our good if we'll let it be right, but we've got to make the choice to see it. So this is how I started to choose to see. It's this, this program called the Will of Awareness by Dan Siegel, and what it did for me it was during. This was after my concussion in 2017.
Speaker 1:I had a pretty gnarly one. I had post-concussive syndrome and I went to this place called Cognitive FX, which I highly recommend for anybody that has head injuries, brain injuries, and luckily got a neuropsychologist that I fell in resonance with quickly and she had this meditation that she introduced us to there and I highly recommend it. Basically, it's a body scan. It's a very thorough body scan and then you go inside and you do an interior perception kind of perception. I guess is the the way of seeing inside and there's, you can start to tune up and feel these parts of your body that you've ignored for a long time.
Speaker 1:And for somebody that has PTSD, that's what we do, is we disconnect from our body. And for me that's how I dealt with all that embodied type of agitation that was PTSD. I enacted bully type behavior that was me expressing like I got this trauma I don't know what to do with and so if we don't see it and deal with it, it just naturally infects everybody around us and that can go for the rest of our lives until we choose to see it. And me and you both know people that are that and it's terrifying.
Speaker 2:Right. So, Well, with that, just another story that's also recent. I just feel like it's good to talk about. Just I don't know. I feel like I've been getting. I've been involved in a lot of things lately and I kind of was like, am I doing something wrong? Like trying to look at myself. But I also feel like, because what I went through growing up, I'm very aware of this and I get triggered by it because it's just Things you saw happened to your brothers the bullying that happened to your brothers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we had a stepdad for a minute that physically assaulted one of my brothers. I was bullied in third grade in Ogden. I'm pretty sure that kid that you know. I had to run the whole recess. I felt like so he didn't like scratch and pull my hair and I'm pretty sure he got like beat. And then growing up junior high, high school, like I had a pretty toxic you know she called herself my wicked stepmother and we laughed. She wasn't all bad or good.
Speaker 1:Like anybody.
Speaker 2:But like anyone?
Speaker 1:yeah, but there's a lot of things that I learned um as far as boundaries, yeah, boundaries, like having a voice for myself, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I guess I should say I'm grateful for it. It's still. There's a lot of things I still get bothered by because I'm like that was was just seemed unnecessary. And so I guess, when there are situations now, as I'm an adult with friends or family, and I'm like this is just unnecessary, hate or hurt or whatever, and it's just putting that on someone else, and so that quote from Brene Brown that we both love is like it's hard to hate someone close up, move in.
Speaker 2:I love that because I still use it all the time, because as soon as I think I'm like, okay, I just want to understand them, I just want to understand their story. And then there's some people that I'm like, oh my gosh, I tried. So I guess it's like a new level of growth that I'm going through that I've had to dig deep. I keep saying these last few days because I'm like all right, I'm taking a breath, I'm really trying to understand this person and see them through God's eyes, so that I don't want to have my inner hood come out and just throat punch them, because I still feel those same feelings everyone else does.
Speaker 2:But is that going to help the situation? No, Is it going to help? You know it could hurt. It's just going to hurt upon other people that I care about and so I'm not going to do that. But we all have those thoughts and we all have like've all had the bad happen to us and instead of using that as a scapegoat or an excuse or justification, we need to learn and be like okay, this happened to me, so I'm going to be better. It's like I was just talking to my friend about this yesterday. She had her dad's dad. He was very abusive and he physically beat his mom and he had two sons and one son was never going to be like that. Right, he's not going to be like his dad because he saw what it did, he saw the pain, he felt the pain. And then his other brother was exactly like him because he saw the hurt, he saw the pain. So I guess what is the difference between those two? Yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 1:That's actually an excellent question, and that's what this meditation is all about, because the difference is one is conscious to their pain and the other isn't, because when we're not choosing to be conscious to it, it just inevitably flows out to everybody around us.
Speaker 2:And it goes back to your awareness.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Instead of just feeling my pain and that I'm hurting, let's look at everybody else. How's she feeling?
Speaker 1:How's he feeling?
Speaker 2:And choosing to have compassion and to be with yourself in your own pain is what allows you to have that awareness, to see other people in pain, and that's go ahead no, I was just gonna say in your capacity, like if I'm just so stuck in my pain, like when we all go through our rough days, it's hard to have capacity for others. But if you can figure out your own stuff, like I've had a lot of people really going through hard times and they're like, oh, I didn't want to share it with you because, like you guys have your own, you know struggles, and I'm like, oh my goodness, funny thing is you're actually helping me so I can kind of not ignore our stuff.
Speaker 2:But I feel like make something of it yeah and I, we both are like so happy to be there, if we can for and we've been able to be there because of our own struggles, which is so crazy to say. It's like yeah, but you're dealt this, so how can you take on more? But it just teaches us to grow our capacity to know what to do with it, instead of just shove it down like we're both used to.
Speaker 1:It's like nope we got to be honest about what's happening with ourselves, and we got to do it in a way that encourages everybody around us to be honest about what's happening with ourselves, and we got to do it in a way that encourages everybody around us to be honest about what's happening with them, because that's what really was. It's what holds us in a lonely, depressed, terrifying space. But when we're open to the abundance that's all around us and that's in relationships and every moment, then we realize that, wow, we can bear what we couldn't bear before and it's. There's no real way to explain how it's done. It's just allowed we, it's. It's a an acceptance and allowing of that higher power to make us more than we were. And there's ways that I think that's offered to us throughout life, and this, what we're sharing with you, are some ways that have been offered to us to find that relationship and to heal that relationship.
Speaker 1:So there's a man named Thomas Keating. He's incredible. He did amazing things with his life. He brought together an interreligious faith dialogue where I think all of the wisdom traditions were represented and even local native religions were there and they talked about what they had in common and they came out with amazing things you know as far as agreements go, that is worth looking into and that's the Snowmass Dialogues, if anybody's interested.
Speaker 1:But I'm bringing him up because he wrote this book called An Invitation to Love and it's amazing. In there he talks about what he calls energy centers, and the way that I understand those is basically like weeds how if a weed grows around a flower, it's going to take all the nutrients from that flower to bloom that it needs to bloom. So for us we have these energy centers that at one point served us, maybe, and now become weeds and take away from the fruit that we're meant to produce in the moment. And they come up in different ways, but he has a few that he lists out specifically that you can watch out for that may be triggered for you. So safety and security, pleasure, esteem and affection and power.
Speaker 1:So I mentioned earlier, safety and security for me has always been a vulnerable area. That's why I was so anxious as a kid because my dad died. I thought for sure my mom was going to die and as a kid, that's life, that's. How do you function without those two. Some kids figure it out, but it's a very scary place to be and esteem is something that's triggered with my oldest because I see him as not appreciating having a dad here and I know what it was like not having a dad right.
Speaker 1:So these are how they show up for me and how I'm working with these and being aware of them in the moment, so that in the moment, these and being aware of them in the moment, so that in the moment I'm not allowing that part to speak I try to see from a perspective that's detached enough that I see. You know, after working with this will of awareness and doing these body scans, I can sense when my hand starts to clench or my jaw starts to clench, or I start to get hot and sweat or I start to, you know, speak faster than my mind can go. Those are all warnings that I've learned over time that are like okay, you're getting to a point that you're gonna allow this energy center to override all of your higher thinking. So slow down, get some space. And this is actually what we did in that situation.
Speaker 1:That was high intensity and threats were being made. It was like, okay, it's like everybody we need. Just we need space. Let's make space here and um. That's how we widen, like victor frankel said, that space between stimulus and response, so that we don't act out from these lower natures or energy centers right.
Speaker 2:Um, well, when you were, I didn't know that safety was one of your is, would you say. That's interesting because a few years ago, when I was talking to my counselor, safety was like one of my top. I don't know. I obviously it's like humans, top you know things, but I didn't know that was like. I guess, would you say, that's still one of yours.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's still just like as a kid, but as a kid yeah, and that's part of me like being a reckless teenager too is I was afraid I was, so I was scared of a lot, um, and especially after the trauma of the incident my dad dying. There's a lot there that we don't need to get into now. That created this, this war against fear, um, and I think it was also dealing with that issue that I have with safety and security. So everything that I was afraid of I was determined to face, even if I was going to wreck, you know, like on a jump, snowboarding or whatever Afterward. That wasn't the point. The point was just facing the fear. I think it was good developmentally, but for my body and my brain it wasn't very good.
Speaker 1:I was like nine times getting knocked out, you know. So the recklessness was pushed a little farther there, but it was how I was trying to deal with that, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the other thing you mentioned was power. So I don't know, I probably was rambling with the last thing I said. But going back to another situation that happened recently was there was kind of some things that I would say bullying done by a group of grown women to a friend and some family members, and it I had to get involved and I stayed out of it, but I felt like I needed to and um, needed to and um. Basically I made a post and I honestly felt prompted to make this post. I don't know why I just did and I, like I said, I don't usually get involved with a lot of things well, you stayed out of it for years.
Speaker 2:Our plates are full yeah well, yeah so there was a certain point yeah, there was an issue going on for a couple years and I was like, well, like that's, that's not me, like my family, like I'll just let them handle it. Both families, like you know, there's adults. So I thought they would figure it out. And I thought it was figured out until, um, another friend had mentioned some stuff that I said, oh, I loved. I'll just say I won't go into too much detail, but I said this is how it came about. Was I said I love getting women connected and doing fun things and meeting new people? And she said, yeah, we used to do that once a month in my old neighborhood, but then, you know, things got bad and toxic and we eventually moved, um, and I was like, what, like because of this situation? And so then I was asking more questions about it and she's like, yeah, you might even know who it is. And so then I put the two and two together and then I was like, oh my gosh, is this seriously happening? And I, all right, so fast forward.
Speaker 2:I made a post. The person who I wanted to see it, she saw it and she texted me and said, hey, if this is about me, like I'd love to chat. I said yes, it's about you, let's chat. So we went and chatted. I thought it went well, I thought it was done and over with um. I don't know if that's you know, I'm just true. It started to come up again. Yeah, there's some bullying.
Speaker 2:That seemed to happen again, which is pretty frustrating it's frustrating, but I also am like, I guess I'm just. This is the point of like, the lesson of of almost like power. I feel like it's people's egos and power over and have to look a certain way.
Speaker 2:So this person says a lot of good things on social media and in words. I like the words, but like the actions and the intent behind it. I don't know if it's an alignment with the stuff, with an alignment with myself, and so I just, I guess, ask the question is are you putting that out there to look a certain way, or are you following it up with your actions? Like, I guess, when I go to church. I don't want to just we've said this before like oh well, I go to church, so I'm good. No, like I want people to be like when I go to their home, like I, I feel a spirit or yeah, it's not like they're always it's not a matter of is this person going to church?
Speaker 1:I don't care about that?
Speaker 2:No, I know. I just assume that's an example.
Speaker 1:I know what I'm trying to summarize. It's like this person is a follower of Christ. Is what we want to do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can look at people and I know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I guess it's not to talk bad about anyone or just stir things up again. It's just to like, even if, say, this person listens to this podcast, like, are you feeling agitation in your body? Is something we're saying upsetting you, or can you pause, take a deep breath and be like, hey, yeah, what are the actions, things that I'm saying Even in response to this stuff, actions, things that I'm saying, even in response to this stuff, even to my posts, like should that affect you?
Speaker 2:I mean, if you're doing your best, like I don't think it should you know what I mean. And so I guess just taking accountability and quieting your ego and just being like, hey, there's some lessons to be learned here. If I hurt some people, I want to know about it yeah and that's it we don't have to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the key right for yourself too, though, because it's. I don't think she's a bad person. I don't think she's. I truly don't think she's purposely trying to be mean, but it's coming off a different way. So I guess there are people that need to be like hey, I don't know, I guess I want to be that sounding board of like hey, this wasn't nice, you need to make that right and that's it, and let's not make it a bigger deal than it needs to be. But just, I think she is trying to be a follower of Christ, and so to me accepting outside, I don't know opinions and perspective is you should be able to do that with open arms, like I tried to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can't be somebody that is trying to correct another person unless you're doing that. That's why Christ was like hey don't try to get a speck out of somebody's eye when you have a big beam in your own. That's silly.
Speaker 1:So take out your beam first, then you can help people, and that's where we're really doing a lot of work. I feel like and we're not trying to claim like we don't need that guidance and we don't need that sort of help sometimes too but it really is the fact that we allow it and we look for it and we crave it now that we come from, and I think, as far as trying to be who we intend to be, it really does take each other's compassion, compassionate perspective to really be who we want to be, because we, we all have blind spots that we need help with exactly and coming away from any situation like that, that's uncomfortable, or and like, think about, like what could I have done better?
Speaker 2:and then also, I don't know, just something as simple as that, like if you don't know where to start or if you don't know, there's things that I've like left, and then I'll send a text and be like hey, that came out weird, you know, whatever. Like I want to be sure, like it was not meant, because we can absorb things differently, right, like that's why a lot of people go to counseling, yeah, and we have our walls and our defenses and a lot are from childhood.
Speaker 2:But let's like I don't know, level up, I guess, and grow from. We're feeling agitation in our own body.
Speaker 1:We have to take responsibility for that, and then we'll be able to see clearly what's happening exactly and I think if we all go probably through stages in our lives where we become bullies and are a little too heavy-handed maybe with parenting, you know. That's why it's important not just important, vital for parents to be holding the tension of opposites, of female, male, masculine, feminine perspective. And I have to hold the masculine and feminine perspective, the tension of that, within me, so that I can have and hold space for you and the power that you have. And if I try to take all of that or try to shame and blame that, then our kids are just going to be growing up in an environment that's not cultivated for their maximal potential.
Speaker 2:It's going to stunt their growth and that's really for me, that's what smacks me out of these arrogant states of it's everybody else's fault well, that's actually a question I was going to ask you because, like, we've shared our story but when you did go through your darkness, like what was the biggest thing that did snap you out is someone that's struggling right now, that's kind of blinded just by hurt and insecurities. You, you know, whatever else I don't know, but um yeah, what was the biggest thing that kind of snapped you out of it.
Speaker 1:I think there was a gradual progression of tuning into my body, tuning into my heart, tuning into my emotions and letting those speak and listening so that they weren't so overwhelming in the moment that tension was high. Same with my pain. I make space every day for my pain to say what it needs to say. And I try to fuse my awareness with the exact area that I'm in pain today.
Speaker 2:So not let it build up like you're doing the work every day so that it doesn't get to that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Right. And then from there you can see so much clearer. You can see that, oh, I've been blaming her for this for so long. I've been holding my wife responsible for my happiness or my healing or whatever, and in reality it's the will of God, you know, and acceptance of reality of life has a lot to do with needing somebody to blame. So there's that too.
Speaker 2:And putting your happiness in someone else's hands. I often think where we struggled with codependency for a while, it was just kind of like no relationship is 50-50, but going to our marriage, where it was like, okay, both of us need to be good so that we can come together and be better. We've heard that before. It's easier said than done, but it's like, ah, like completely necessary because I can't do our own work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that we can be like. I'm like marriage should be a bonus. I get it's not perfect, there's hard times, but going back to it's not 50-50, like Brene Brown did a podcast something where it's like, if my husband's 10%, I got to show up and be that 90% and doing our own work is how we're able to show up. Because what if you're both zero? Like we've said before, we were both negative. So where you can't, no good is gonna come from it. It's good to take some time, space, whatever.
Speaker 1:Get yourself okay so then you can show up and be there and then try to work on things when it comes to like a relationship yep, and patience and compassion with yourself and the process, because it's going to take a while for you to see the perspective that I'm describing and it takes a lot of time for me daily to maintain that.
Speaker 1:So allowing those, those parts of you to fall that aren't you, that you thought were you, is a big part of it, because we're trying to protect these parts of us that aren't even real, you know. And and that's when I think this huge, it just came to mind and my mind's going a million miles an hour. So it was just the point of you take things too personal for me was like, what does that even mean? How do I do that? I don't mean to do that Like and it's a big process to figure out what that means and how to not take things personal, but it's possible. I didn't think it was possible before because we're all just trying to find love and to get love and to get what we need and we think it's all outside of us. We don't realize that we have that within us and we can access that and when we access it for ourselves and allow that to heal our wounds, well, and something I just was thinking.
Speaker 2:I was like trying to think back of what when I said that, but it was probably more to like our intimate relationship and so, um, I just like really quickly, I just thought like that's even a really important thing.
Speaker 2:So a lot of men I think this is important because I've heard this recently with a lot of different friends relationships, and it's just so, you know, if the man's needs aren't being met in the intimate way, they might feel some insecurities and like, might make this storyline of what's not happening. And then, in the woman which I can speak for the woman I feel like, because we've, we've just been exactly through this where it's like, actually what was going on for me was this, this, this and this, and then it's like not even we're on two different planets, almost so.
Speaker 2:So I feel like once you were able to hear me with that and I think Dear Hollow was super helpful too Like when you heard other women's points of view. You heard different things, different stories, and then you're like, oh, and so your defense wasn't up because it wasn't me, like you're not in this relationship, but you could hear these women. So then when you got home, I did feel like you were able to hear me with certain things and just like, oh, this is, this, isn't about me, like she's struggling with this, this and this. I'm just gonna be here, you know. And then it's not like a dreadful thing, it's a way to connect and obviously there's more ways of just like a physical intimacy, but like emotional intimacy was like very much lacking from our relationship and I think that was super. It was just nice to finally reach and get to, I guess, once you're like oh, I was heard and that's obviously one of my top needs as well.
Speaker 1:I'm really glad that you brought that up because it's a perfect example and when we open up our perspective, we can let down these guards of ideas and perceptions that were bad and false, that were preventing us from seeing the other person clearly and showing up to be what they needed in those moments.
Speaker 1:And that group was really, really powerful and they were so honest about how all of their past trauma was affecting their current lives and addiction and sort of you know all sorts of ways.
Speaker 1:And I mean right now it breaks my heart to just even think about it, because it helped me see that there's just so much pain in the world and and at that time it was, it was during the time that I was starting to figure out that, oh, I can access what I'm asking from her inside of me and that's what I crave. This yearning for intimacy is really a yearning for intimacy with divinity and that's expressed with divinity and that's expressed, I think, at its most beautiful moment in, you know, that union between a man and a wife and the okayness that comes after that that you feel like is just, it's probably not the same okayness, right? That's the physical, if you're stuck in kind of a physical realm of being and not really getting into the emotional sides and the spiritual sides, then that will probably mean everything to you in the world, like it did to me for a while.
Speaker 1:But once you start to get deeper into what it is that you want to be intimate with, right and it's the divinity in you and that's expressed through, uh, that that sort of husband wife intimacy, yeah, and then it's the divinity in you and that's expressed through that sort of husband-wife intimacy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then it's just like a bonus, like everything's better and it's like you can connect on a deeper level, and then it does fill those needs that you were actually like oh, I thought it was this need, but it's actually this, just like you said. So I don't know. I just think that's something really common with a lot of relationships that it's just really hard to reach because we are, we do let our ego get in the way and our insecurities and it's like yeah, and it's not bad to have needs and wants and stuff like that, but just keeping the conversation piece I think about it is important, but also the listening piece is really huge.
Speaker 1:So, just to close it out, I think it's good to think about how, in real life, that that's going to play out and in those situations everybody can relate to, like am I just trying to go somewhere and get something for myself, or are we trying to just be together? Because if there's this expectation of an outcome, or this childish fantasy that you have that you need to let go of, it's all going to interrupt this level of intimacy that we're all craving. And to do that we have to consider whether or not we're being honest about where we're at and the agitation that we feel in our own bodies and the fact that we're going to feel that on and off the rest of our lives. That's what Buddha that's his genius that he brought to the world is.
Speaker 1:We're running from something that is an integral part of life. Don't run from it. Allow it to be what it is. Allow it to shape you, and if you do and follow the guidance that I think is within all of us to find our own way through and, to our own way, to make something of all of that suffering, then we're going to be kind of stuck in this hell place and we're going to blame everybody else that we're there, so hopefully, um, we continue to follow our own advice and and show up in this way, but we know that we're just as capable of dropping the practice yeah, dropping back to where we were, and we're capable of being bullies too, and you know, if there, if there's ever any time that we are and we're not able to talk about that, you know and and find space to heal that part of us, then we're going to be stuck and we need professional help with that.
Speaker 1:You know, that's why I went to dear hollow yeah, lots of counseling a lot of counseling to see the blind spots, to help see the parts of ourselves that we were just clinging to, that we just needed to let go of.
Speaker 1:It's all necessary. And if we're not going to accept that help as it comes, then it reminds me of this image that comes to mind of this guy in a flood that calls God for help and God sends help in several different ways in a boat, in a helicopter, in all these different ways he sends people to help him through it, to get him out of there, and he says no, I called and asked for God, and has this expectation that God's going to show up in a certain way. We need to let go of that and be willing to accept goodness and help as it comes. And if we do, life reminds us of its beauty, that it's basically good and that, no matter what happens, we will find the capacity to deal with it, because from this perspective, you can see, looking back, that you were able to deal with things that were impossible to deal with. So, amen, amen, all right, maybe that's good able to deal with things that were uncomfortable impossible to deal with.
Speaker 1:So amen, amen, all right, maybe that's good is that good, yep?
Speaker 2:thanks for joining us thank you.
Speaker 1:If you liked it, please share it with somebody and we'll see you again soon.