Honduras: Unraveling the Current Political Climate and Its Impacts

 In this episode of the LatinNews Podcast, we speak with investigative journalist Jennifer Ávila, co-founder of Contracorriente, about the current political and social landscape in Honduras. 

We discuss the challenges facing President Nasri Asfura's administration, the influence of US policy on migration and security, the return of former president Juan Orlando Hernández, and the country's evolving political dynamics. The conversation also explores organized crime, violence against women, and Honduras' role as a testing ground for new political and economic ideas. 

Follow Jennifer Ávila's work at www.contracorriente.red 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:16

This is the last news podcast. I am your host, Richard McCall, currently in London, England, normally in Bolkostat, Colombia. And this week we're going to be speaking about Honduras. Our very special guest is Jennifer Avila. She's the co-founder of the news site Contra Corriente. You can find her at contracorrientef.red. She's an investigative journalist and is our go-to person for everything Honduras related. And so welcome on the Latin News Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Thank you. Thank you, Richard. And thank you to everyone who's interested in Honduras right now.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

We are all interested because Honduras is incredibly important indeed for recent events. Of course, the involvement of President Donald Trump in like a tipping maybe the favor of the election, the presidential election some months ago in favor of Nazi Azura. And of course, this kind of connection between now Donald Trump and his government, Javier Millet, and of course the release of Juan Orlando Hernandez, the former president. So perhaps in order to unravel all of that, perhaps, Jennifer, you can give us an overview of the political situation right now with President Nasri Asfura in control.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Yes, Nasri Atfura is a new president. He has only six months in power, but uh the sociopolitical situation in Honduras is very difficult right now. We have a rise in homicides, also, we have more than 100 women that had been murdered in Honduras. So we are one of the most violent country for women right now because of the femicides. But also, it's not only that, it's this the way this government is addressing this situation, the violence situation, the violence against women situation, and also the conflicts in the rural areas. For example, the land conflicts with indigenous and garispunest communities. It has been very, this government has been very confrontative with these groups and also with women that are trying to get more justice. They have this very violent and discriminatory narrative in the in the media and as a government, and these laws and reforms that they have been pushing are also getting Honduras in a few steps back in human rights and also in the solution for land conflicts right now. So we have a very conflictive environment. This government is facing also the protest with repression through the police, and they are not very clear in their strategy to address insecurity, which is one of the most important problems that it's facing right now. And they have been deporting a lot of people to Honduras. Actually, yes, this week, for example, today we're having two flights coming from the process, but today and the next day, and the next day. From Monday to Friday, we're receiving 300-350-50 people coming to Honduras, which is a very dangerous place now to live. And also we have we don't have a lot of hope in economic too. So it's a this is one of the issues that is making the sociopolitical situation very hard right now in Honduras, because all these deportees they don't know what to do here. For example, I have been speaking with some of them and they have been living in the United States for the last 15 years, for example. They have all their family there because a lot of the them had to flee because of the violence and because of no economic hope here. And now they're returning to this country that is still dangerous, it's still with less opportunities, and they don't know what to do. And so this is very hard. And yes, Honduras right now with this president that has a lot of commitments with the United States government. We don't have anything to negotiate in these things. We we that's our story. We have never been able to negotiate anything with the United States. This is not only this government. All governments be like before, it's the same issue, like migration issue. We don't have anything to negotiate with the United States on that. The drug trafficking, the war on drugs. We're just a place where the drugs are coming and the United States is fighting against supposedly. And yes, that's how it is. And now, but now I think the narrative is is stronger. So it's yes, we know that the United States has always been or playing a very hard role in the in Honduras, but now maybe it's the narrative that is more open. The president of the United States tells the people of Honduras who to vote for, and then the president of the United States gives this pardon to the ex-president, so this this new leader, this this political leader returns to the country. So they are dictating more and more in a very open way. And no multilateralism, no space to to say maybe we can negotiate these things, is more like vertical power right now. So that's how that's what I think that's our those are the the issues that have been more important in these first six months of this government. And yes, and I think it's it's part of the of of how it is going to be the next four years.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

This is a very tough situation where it's it you the again, no negotiating grounds for Honduras. So you have no leverage on anything at all. And the U So it's just like the US says do this, this is where we'll wage our war on organized crime and migration. That's the twin lens uh with which the US government at the moment seeds Latin America and especially countries like uh Honduras. Uh is there any benefit uh to a relationship? Because it seems to me uh there's a lot of these repatriation flights. Are these people are they additional to Hondurans or just Hondurans who are being repatriated? Or is it one of those safe third countries on the way back as well? Is it one of these agreements?

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Yes, we also have this agreement. We have the the regular deportees that are coming back, but we also have this third country third country to to ask for refugee because these are people that ask for refugee in in the United States from other places in the world, and we're receiving from Ecuador, Colombia, and from the rest of Central America. We are receiving more from whatever, but we don't have actually in the country, and I have been investigating this this this last month, doesn't have the capacity to receive our own deportees. So we don't have the capacity to receive people from uh other places in in Latin America or Central America. And we're not a place to ask for refuge because there's uh or for asylum, because people they don't think Honduras is safe, is a safe place to ask for asylum. We don't have a special protocol that is protecting these people. I know that some international organizations are working to help these people coming in to Honduras and ask for asylum if they want, but if they don't want ask for asylum, give them another choice to go back maybe to their countries or to a country close to their country. So it's it's there's there are no many no no many choices for these people, especially for Central Americans. I've been uh speaking with some Colombian people and from Ecuador too, and they say we are spending like six months in Honduras, but then we think we have to go back to another country or to our country or to another city where we are not in danger anymore. So but there's a lot of things that they have to decide, and they don't have a lot of help. And Honduras is not doing anything more than receiving these flights, and that's it. Honduras cannot receive these people and tell them you're in a safe place to ask for asylum. So, yes, it's hard, and also a lot of organizations here in Honduras they are very they're very worried because they cannot, they don't have the capacity even to receive these other people. They're they're managing to receive the national deportees, but they don't have the capacity to receive all these people, so it's very hard. And um, and yes, it's part of the deals that Honduras just have to say yes to this, and it's nonsense because who wants to get into to Honduras as a safe place? Because it's not, it's not for the people in Honduras, it's not for the people coming from other places.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

This brings me, it it seems like this is a losing battle here for Hondur Hondurans, and of course, Honduras itself, uh there's no mechanism with which to fully receive these, again, as you say, these good people and those who are meant to be uh you know go further adrift, Ecuador or Colombia. Uh and of course Honduras being next door to Guatemala and Guatemala not being an allied country to the US has to create some sort of a friction there with the government. They're working together pragmatically, but very not aligned politically. And how does how are people questioning the role of the current president then, President Asfura, in in all of this?

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Are they questioning is there a a murmuring of discontent the discontent is more in the in indigenous communities, the Ifuna communities. I think we had this left-wing government the last four years that has been very um I think a lot of people have a dissolution with the with the left-wing government and they punish this this left-wing government with the elections. So it is hard because I think people wanted to believe that this government, even if it's a right-wing government, it will be better than the last. So the protests and all this have is coming from more from the rural areas, like to campesinos, indigenous communities, and garifinous communities that are are being direct with these policies that the this government has. In the cities, like in Teucigalpa or San Pedro Sula, if there's no a lot of expressions of protest. Even people is not happy because I told you, homicide rate is getting up, and also the common violence that we said, people not feeling not feeling safe in the streets, it's like that. But they're not expressing their discontent right now in the cities, it's more about the the most marginalized country communities in the country that are facing this. And also I think a lot of people is afraid of the repression because now I think a lot of people understand that we're now in a government that is very similar to the Juan Orlando government. So they know what happened there in 2017. We had this big political crisis, and we have more than 20 people killed by the military police, and a lot of repression, and it was very violent. This government had a very violent repression against people that were that that were in protest. So I think a lot of people is afraid now to go out because they say it's similar of what we're what we lived in 2017 and that second term of Orlando Hernandez. And also, I think a lot of people it's also trying to wait if this first year is something is going to happen in the economic, in the economic situation, because that was one of the biggest promises of why the United States is important to Honduras, because of the development and these big investments that the United States companies are making or are going to make in Honduras that they're they never come. But that's also what people is expecting to have more jobs because of the economic situation getting better, because of the international investments coming to Honduras because we have a right wing or a more aligned government with the United States.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

What what kind of investment was promised in this campaigning? What kind of foreign investment has been promised to Honduras?

SPEAKER_02 15:11

That's very interesting because I think this is very different from the last right-wing government we have, because these people around Donald Trump that are more libertarian people, like Peter Thiel and Elon Musk, and all this kind of businesses that are not the usual uh businesses. It's a different kind of mining. Always it's like mining or extractive industries, but the more brutal extractive industries. But now it's another kind of extractive industries that are more aligned to the tech industry because that's the style of the people around Donald Trump right now. So we have this libertarian experiment in in one of our islands in Rotan that is called Prospera. And the this experiment is like a free city, like a free city where a lot of in foreign investors come and they don't have to pay the same taxes like in the rest of the country, and they can create their own laws to regulate or regulate themselves, and they have this like a corporative state, banana republic in several years ago, but in a different way because this is like tech, tech and biotech, and this this kind of thing. So they have been fighting a lot to be like this experiment to show the world how corporations can manage as a state. And they have been promising a lot on developing this kind of projects that are more flexible to foreign investors to put a lot of money and that this will give a lot of jobs, and that this will develop the country city by city. It's like from here to many free cities. That's one of the, I think, one of the visions in these people that are surrounding Donald Trump, that is that are supporting also this political project. And even the president has not been very vocal around we are open to support Prospera or this kind of project. They are working together in a lot of ways. They are making events, they are also trying to negotiate how to work, Prospera is expanding. So, yes, this is like I think this is the political and economical project that they are testing in Honduras to repeat in Argentina, for example. Peter Field has this foundation, Pronomous Foundation, that they have all these venture capitals to support this kind of project in the rest of the world. They have a lot of these projects in Africa too. So this is not just an Honduran project. This is like the experiment that will test that this could work with a right-wing government that is aligned to a very right-wing government in the United States. And that's the promise. That's the promise to be flexible with foreign investors and giving them this space to be creative to make the investment that they want. But it's not so traditional as that it has been like decades ago, like this kind of extractive industry that we have been that we have from the United States and from mining of gold and silver or the fruit industry. Now we have these other kind of ideas that are developing in a very strong way.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

But it's extra it's extractive or exploitative in a very different way, but it's a 21st century way, isn't it? It's very I never thought that we would start talking about this. But it is absolutely fascinating to consider that Honduras is the uh what would you call it? The ground zero for this, or they're testing it out. And therein brings that that link that we mentioned at the very beginning with uh President Javier Millet. And then, of course, obviously you you mentioned quite uh quite significantly the former President Juan Orlando Hernandez and so on. But uh this being this prosperous being developed on the island of Ruotan, it's a Bay Island, it's a it's off the coast, so it's a kind of it's its own nation state, really. It's separate to Honduras in that way. So it's an experiment that could very easily close tomorrow, really. For me, these are short-lived. I don't see them as long term as being a huge benefit to uh the grand majority of Honduran people. So I don't know, but that's just me thinking out loud that you have done far more investigation into this. I just uh I see it as being a very tricky situation, very delicate situation for Honduras and for the political class. And of course, let's talk about the local people in the Bay Islands as well.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Yes, and actually it's not all the Roatan city that is part of Prospera, it's only 4% of that island is is it's very small. I saw it and I said, what's the difference from this from a touristic resort? Yeah, it's it's but it's not the it's not the size for now, it's more about the what they are experimenting there. Not only because they are experimenting with biohacking, these people that they want to live forever, so they are testing these treatments so they can live longer. That's what they're doing there. It's not only that, it's the network state that they are implementing, or a corporative state that they're implementing, that which is very interesting as an experiment to just multiply it in everywhere. And it's more ideological, I think, than the thing that they're going to have a lot of money. But also, it's very interesting that a big uh big billionaire are putting a lot of money there because one of the BO packing companies, for example, there are all already. Selling the treatment to live longer, somehow money is one of the investment investors. Then you have this the CEO Coinbase investing like hundreds of thousands of dollars there. So there's a lot of money going there, and there's no transparency because it's a free city. So we don't really know how much how much money is in there. How are they implementing this project? Because it's everything is closed, it's private. So that's the thing that is dangerous too. But now they're not only working or they're not only implementing this in Ruatan, they have moved to the coast in La Ceiba, to the port.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

So they are going to develop there. They're talking about data centers, they're talking about developing the port there. And if they have the port and also the island, they have a lot of power right now. They are expanding, and and yes, we don't know where is this going to go because it's a very different kind of elite trying to make a different kind of project. Not only the economic project, it's also a political project. So that's the thing. And Honduras has been always a place to experiment. We have a coup d'etat that everybody thought that was part of the history, but no part of the modern history, and we had it, and then a lot of coup that is constitutional remotion then happened in South America, for example, because we are always experiments, and then these kind of projects are developing in other places.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

So, of course, corruption and source.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

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SPEAKER_02 25:03

For now, people is organizing to receive Juan Orlando Hernandez, so he has a lot of popularity. His wife that has been very vocal on how he is innocent and how he was framed. They have been controlling the narrative actually the last years, even before the pardon from Donald Trump. Juan Orlando is a very polarizing figure in Honduras. A lot of people really hate him and other people really love him. He divides people in Honduras in a very drastic way. But now I think after all the problems that people saw in the last left-wing government and all the narrative being controlled by the right-wing politicians, I think people love this story of the Messiah, of the martyrs, of the savior of a country. And Juan Orlando is playing that role in a very effective way. He has been very close to this religious speech of I've been suffering, but God let me be free right now. Even his wife told all the journalists that have been asking her who paid for the pardon, because nobody knows who paid for the pardon for the lobby that at the end achieved the pardon from Donald Trump. And she said, no, God touched Donald Trump heart because he knows how it's being framed by the opposition. And he knows that the justice system is not fair. And that connects with the experience of a lot of people because a lot of people they don't feel that justice is fair to them. If uh one mother is lost uh uh a daughter because she was murdered and in Honduras she never got justice, they don't believe in the justice system. So this kind of speech, even we know that Juan Orlando is not like these people that are suffering in Honduras, but a lot of people connect with us and they know how to play that role. So I think a lot of people is expecting that Juan Orlando is going to come back and he's going to be a new leader, like uh a reformed leader that has a second chance to make things right. So, yes, that's how a lot of people see. I thought he would have more opposition by now, but I'm surprised that a lot of people is actually happy of him coming back. And yes, I know he has a lot of opposition, but it's not so strong as I I thought. But it's because they are completely controlling the narrative right now. And as I told you, a lot of people are just so tired of the justice system that they believe that could be a frame, a political frame. Even we know as a journalist, I covered the second term he he had the president. And drug trafficking when I also covered the trial. And drug trafficking was not the worst thing that you could say about his second term as a president. He re-elected and he was against the constitution of Honduras, and it was a fraud, a fraudulent election, but also he was a very repressive president. He also did a lot of actions as a president that were very not damaged a lot of the country situation, and in between 2017 and 2021, the country was really destroyed by violence, by the control of cartels, drug cartels, but also by gangs, a lot of violence, a lot of repression. And I think sometimes people just don't want to remember that, and they just get this new image of him that is this victim, this big victim of um an unfair justice system.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

What does it mean to the current president? Uh the return of Juan Orlando Hernandez. Is this a threat to his leadership?

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Yes, it is. It is. Actually, in when this Donald Trump post endorsing FURA, they were very happy, of course, as FURA and all the party, and they say, okay, we we already won, we won because this is a very different message. But then the pardon came, and the pardon came before the election, and they didn't expect that. I think they were expecting that the pardon come after the election, but not before. So this also divides the opinions even inside the national party. I remember the vice president, she told me Juan Orlando for our party, he's a closed chapter. So he's part of the past of our party. And so they were very they were in opposition and they didn't expect that. And actually, what the president said after he was pardoned, he said, okay, he's welcome to Honduras, and I hope he can find time to be with his family. But he didn't welcome him to the party again. And a lot of the leaders that are more close to us, they're more in that opinion. Like Juan Orlando must stay like in the private, he has a lot of things to do now, but not in the party, but not in the political process. After the re-election of Juan Orlando Hernandez, he divided a lot his party because the message of being re-elected against the constitution also was a message against the leadership of the party. There's no better leader than me. So I have to be re-elected. And maybe half of his party was not on that. They were very mad about that. And that's why they abandoned him after during the trial. He didn't have narrative support from the party. But now he's rebranding his whole situation. There's a lot of people that is following him. But yes, he's a threat to Aspura's leadership. He's also a threat to Tomás Ambrano's leadership, which is the president of the Congress, because he wants to be a president. And maybe Juan Orlando could compete in a close future. So because we have to expect everything right now. We can expect everything right now after all that happened in this in these months.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

What is the situation like today with the different cartels or criminal gangs? We look at El Salvador, obviously, is the comparison that's always made with President Bukele there. But what is the mood like and what is the reality in Honduras?

SPEAKER_02 33:12

The reality in Honduras, even we have the same big gangs as the El Salvador had, used to have, they're very different in Honduras. MS 13, it's more like a cartel right now than a street gang. It's a very powerful criminal structure that controls more of the urban areas in Honduras and also the areas that are important to drug trafficking or to drugs past transit to Guatemala. And MS-13 is also a criminal organization that is it plays the role of the state in a lot of places. So they also have in some places, maybe it's not the support of the people, but they accept. People accept to being controlled by the MS-13 gang because they don't have a state there, a presence there, and also because of the MS-13 is not exhorting them because MS-13 also changed their business model. They are not like this is three gangs that are fighting with guns in the street, and you see them. They're more like businesses, businessmen that are just dealing with the drug business. So that also helps to the levels of homicide to get go go back go down even in teen uh to 2021, the two terms of Juan Orlando that happened because MS 13 transformed their business model more into the drugs, the drug business, and not more on the murdering and this kind of things or exhorting. Then we have the eggs the eggs in street gang, that they are more a street gang. So they're more violent and they are always putting other kind of groups, so they are they are like always fighting through territory, also with an MS-13, but uh in a more violent way. And then we have the drug cartels that work very close with MS-13 for the transit through the cities, but they control more of the rural areas, more like the jungle in La Mosquitia, Olancho, and also the north coast of Honduras, which is a very long north coast we have, so they control there and they control the land also, and that's why they are very Honduras is a narco state because nothing moves or nothing is it's it's controlled if you don't have the organized crime involved. With local politicians, with local businesses, drug money is everywhere here. So in the rural areas or the north coast or the jungle, where you don't have a lot of state there neither, you have a lot of businesses running because of the drug money, and also lands that are controlled by drugs by drug lords. And that's why campesinas and garifunas communities that are fighting for land, they are more threatened than other people in the country because they are threatened directly by they're threatened directly by organized crime that are linked to local elites or to local politicians. So that's how Andreas is running. It's very similar, but in a scale, in a small scale as Mexico, in a way, but we are very smaller country, but it's more complex our our way of crime than what El Salvador used to have. And that's why the the actual the current minister, the security minister, he said that we were not going to copy Bukele's model because we are not the same as El Salvador. And our our he was very, I think he was very honest in that situation because he said we're not going to copy because Honduras is not El Salvador, we have a bigger territory and our organized crime is different. And that was a very unpopular opinion right now, because everybody wants a Bukele model as something that you can copy and paste. But for now, we're not we don't we're not in that fish, like doing the same as Bukele did, but it's a matter of time when this is going to turn around, because also United States made some deals with Honduras to help with the organized crime situation, and we don't know specifically what this is going to mean. For example, in Ecuador, that meant a lot of things. So maybe we don't know still how what the United States is going to control around our security strategy around the drug trafficking.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Of course, you're central to the the shield of the Americas. And I as you have so often said, Honduras will be the experiment. Sadly. Yeah, and of course, I think we come back to it. Honduras is not El Salvador. The Minister of Defense is entirely correct in saying that, but it's the will of the popular voices that think that the Man Honduras or a militarized station will help. But Honduras is a huge area of rural country. Aside from La Ceiva or a very rural country, not the same. If you say that the Alatuca has changed its business model, then it's again another degree different from its Avatar on that as well. As we wind this down, because it's just too much to talk about, Jennifer, and I'm so very appreciative of knowledge. Honduras relies uh immensely on the remittance money sent back from the United States. And apparently, according to reports, this has increased uh uh in a great deal in recent months and years. To what do we attribute this? Why is this happening?

SPEAKER_02 39:48

This is happening because people, even if you have the most big the biggest wall you can have to stop migrants, people are still going to the United States fleeing from this situation in Honduras. I interviewed in 2017, I interviewed this guy, he was a coyote, told the window in coyotes, the people that pass people, the United States, that trap traffic people actually. And he told me like it doesn't matter the policies that come, it is going to get only more expensive to people to pass. So we're going to charge more, but people are still paying for this and going there because that's the only way people can see a future for their families. So even we have all these people coming back and all this persecu this situation that they're having there, a lot of violence, a lot of persecution there in the United States, they still don't see a future in Honduras. So they're trying to go again, or there's new people going there. Even if the economy is not good in the United States and they have to hide and they have a lot of problems, it's worse in Honduras. And that's a very awful thing to say because if you if you ask people, do you want, do you really want to leave your country? People they don't want to leave their country. They love Honduras, they love their family to be with their family. But if you ask them, do you have to leave? Do you have to live to su to survive or to give a future to your to your kids? People say yes, I have to leave. So that's why this is not stopping, even if you put a big wall or you're sending back a lot of people. Also, people is fleeing to these to Spain, especially women. A lot of women are fleeing to Spain, and when the situation gets worse for women, like now we have a lot of violence against women and murders. People live to women used to to flee to Spain. And there's a big community of Honduran women that have fled from Honduras because of the violence and because of the economic situation. And this is something that that nobody is addressing in the government right now, like how to get more opportunities to people, even the people receiving these remittances, what they are doing with the remittances, what opportunities they have to invest or to develop a business in Honduras if we have all these problems. There's no solutions for that, or not promises neither, because it's not like a big issue to address for this government, for example, by now. Yes, but that's what I can say about that.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Why is there such violence against women and why are there so many femicides in in Honduras?

SPEAKER_02 43:07

It's it's especially a lot of them are related to domestic violence that has not been addressed in a in a proper way by the justice system. But in other part of this also is because there has been more women participating in organized crime activities, not in the most like murdering people, it's more like in the selling of drugs in the communities because they don't have other opportunities of jobs. And for example, communities controlled by a gang, especially by MS 13. A lot of women are more forced to sell drugs, for example. And that also gets them in a situation where they can be murdered in many ways. And then, but especially, like I think the first thing is more domestic violence that have been treated in a very wrong way in the justice system. We have these women that go to the police and ask for help and they are not receiving the help, and then the men kill them. We have very small percentage of justice, like of cases that have been condemned by femicide in Honduras in the last 10 or 12 years, and that also the impunity also pushes all of this violence forward. But these are the two, I think the two main causes, and also the narrative right now, and it has been always like this when this kind of violence goes up, a lot of the narrative is blaming the women because women are in gangs, because women are part of the organized crime. But but a lot of people, even a lot of women that are in jail right now, they were not like active members of organized crime. There were more forced to sell drugs, for example, in the community. Um, so that's the participation, and that that gives all these authorities to say women uh to blame women to be more endangered now because they're participating in this kind of activity.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Uh I don't really know what to say. Coming back to to bring this to a close, uh, I guess we see that Honduras will remain uh you know an experimental place for let's say projects from uh North America, uh political, social, and beyond. And I think we've discussed those in this conversation. Uh so let me say that thank you so much to Jennifer Avila for her time and for sharing so openly uh the issues occurring right now in Honduras. Of course, you can follow her and read her writing and those of her colleagues at Contracorriente. The website is contraccorriente.red. Uh it's all about Honduras and the region as well. I've had an opportunity to look through it. It's investigative journalism, very interesting indeed, and highly recommended. So thank you for your time and thank you for sharing this knowledge with all of us.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

Thank you. Thank you, Richard.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

It's been an absolute pleasure. My name is Richard McCall. I am the host here of the Latin News Podcast. We are back every two weeks discussing something about the region. And of course, you can subscribe wherever you get your podcast YouTube, Spotify, iTunes, Downflow, and never miss another episode. So tune back in two weeks' time. Thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Let's need podcasts.