How to Build Support for Sandwiched Caregivers: A Conversation With Dr. Sara Keary

Arsenal Financial advisors Doug Orifice and Jeremy Vaille are trying really, really hard to make a listenable podcast about money and finance. In this episode, they sit down with Dr. Sara Keary, a caregiver counselor and consultant, to discuss some of the surprising realities of caregiving for older adults today and how to implement plans and support systems. They weave in analogies for football fans to give the quarterback (caregiver) the best chance of success, with an offensive line and special teams (building a support network of family, friends, and paid help), a playbook to practice (planning for different possibilities), and a solid defense to tackle financial security and fraud. And, of course, they round things out with some famous Jeremy dad jokes.

Find out more about Sara's Caregiver Counseling and Consultation at caregivercc.com or email her at sarakearyphd@gmail.com. 

Find Doug, Jeremy, and Arsenal Financial at arsenalfinancial.com or call (781) 335-9100.

Securities and advisory services offered through LPL Financial, a registered investment advisor. Member FINRA/SIPC. The information in this podcast is educational and general in nature and does not take into consideration the listener’s personal circumstances. Therefore, it is not intended to be a substitute for specific, individualized financial, legal, or tax advice. To determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you, consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making a final decision.

Transcript

Doug: 0:04

Welcome everyone. Thank you once again for tuning in to the Arsenal Money Clip Podcast, where we are trying really, really, really hard to give you a listenable podcast about money, finance, and investing. My name is Doug Orifice. With me, as always, is my partner and pal, Jeremy Vaille. Jeremy and I run a company called Arsenal Financial. We're a wealth management, financial planning, and investment management firm with two offices in Watertown, Mass and Norwell, Massachusetts. I'm here in Watertown today. Jeremy, you're down on the south shore. We're bracing for snow this weekend. We got exciting football coming up. How you doing this morning? 

Jeremy: 0:39

Good, good. Yeah, you might be treading on the snowboard until June if this happens the way we think it's gonna happen.

Doug: 0:46

I hope so. 

Jeremy: 0:47

15 inches expected here on the south shore. Think more for you, maybe. 

Doug: 0:51 

Good thing that you got that snow blower fixed last week. 

Jeremy: 0:54

We'll see how long it lasts. Might be doing repairs again. 

Doug: 0:59

So we got some big topics, right. The weather's a big topic for us just this weekend. Football's a big topic for us this weekend. I know you're gonna listen to this sometime after maybe the football season is over, but we're recording this just before the AFC Championship game featuring the New England Patriots and Denver Broncos. So we're really excited about that. But from a professional point of view, something that has been on our mind every single day, really more and more as the weeks go by, has been our friends, our family, our coworkers, our clients who are just part of what we call the sandwich generation. So we talked about this the last podcast. Really finding more and more, I think part of this, JV, is because we're in it, right? 

Jeremy: 1:38

We're in it. Yeah.

Doug: 1:39

We're a four-person business. All four of us are Gen Xers who are kind of in that sandwich generation. So we've been thinking a lot about how we can help our clients who are either A in the middle, our clients who are getting older and facing some harder times, our clients who have kids that are making their way through school, facing higher costs, having a hard time launching. So we're very excited to have a special guest today, Dr. Sara Keary from Watertown, Massachusetts, who's going to help us kind of talk through the issue of sandwich generation. Sara, hi. Thanks for being here.

Jeremy: 2:12 

Hi, Sara.

Doug: 2:13

And for our listeners, maybe you can tell them who you are and what to do.

Sara: 2:17

Good morning, Doug and Jeremy. First, just thank you so much for this podcast in general and for this topic. And thank you for having me on. I'm really grateful for any opportunity to talk about the clients that I work with. And I appreciate your orientation around this topic, especially now. I am a social worker by training, a geriatric social worker in particular. I work with older adults and their families, primarily caregivers right now. My background is in inpatient geriatric psychiatry, hospice, palliative care, bereavement. And then about four years ago, I started my own practice where I work primarily with caregivers of aging people. So not just adult children who are kind of the focus of the sandwich generation topic, but also spouses, partners, siblings. We are finding more and more peer caregiving experiences right now. So older adults who are caring for older adults. And so yeah, I'm based in Watertown. My practice is virtual. Sometimes I'll go in into people's homes to support caregivers to talk about not just the logistics and the practical aspects of caregiving, but also the emotional and psychological aspects that it just all intersects and it all influences each other. And so how do we kind of stay sane, balance this. Balance in quotes. I feel like it's kind of an untenable goal, but how can we support caregivers in this process? Because for every one aging person that has multiple medical conditions or has complex needs, there's at least one, if not more, care providers. And I appreciate the shift on how you're kind of shining the light on how do we support those folks. So that's a little bit about kind of where I'm coming from today.

Doug: 4:07

Sara, if you were in the office when Jeremy and I get to spend time together face to face, I mean, you would see us talking about this quite a bit, you know, starting with our own families. We're both married to women who are not from the area and have parents who are not in the area and we watch it be hard for them. We have our own individual stories, and then we get to be either in, JV, how do we put it? Anywhere from like the front row to the lows to the balcony with our clients going through different versions of this. So we're just really appreciative of having you here today so that we can talk through some of this. So we're also going to try and make this fun if we can, too. It's not a lot of fun when you're in the middle, right, Sara, when you're that caretaker, you're trying to take care of those below you, and you're trying to take care of maybe your folks who are aging and sick. It's almost impossible to make that fun. But since we do have a big football game coming up, we'll try to make a lot of metaphors to football just to keep a slight smile on our face here on a Friday as we talk about this. So we have three different agenda items that we'll talk about here. So let's talk about the quarterback. There's a lot of quarterback talk in my house. My eighth grade son is completely obsessed with Patriots quarterback Drake Maye and has his Drake jersey on in advance of the big game this weekend. So issue number one is let's kind of talk through the issues that the quarterback, that quarterbacking adult child would have. We have some things that are on the top of our list, Sara, but I'd love to throw it over to you and just say, you know, as you're working with an adult child, like what are the dominating things that they're struggling with and maybe the issues that you're trying to help with?

Sara: 5:41

Sure. So first I always appreciate the use of the sandwich generation. I think just to kind of give some context to what I'm gonna say in response to some of these things, it's almost becoming a funnel or like a cone. Again, just to give some context to what we're looking at like demographically and who people are in terms of caring for aging parents. The baby boom generation turned 65 in 2011. And I just want to say that by 2050, that generation will be 85 and older. And so what's happening is we have a lot of older people and fewer and fewer and fewer younger people who are gonna be able to take care of them. So the burden is really falling on the Gen X and elder millennials and then younger generations and then paid care. So it's really a disproportionate sandwich. It's like if you have the top slice of bread, it's pretty big, and then whatever filling in the middle, and then you have like a crumb for the bottom. And so it's really it's unwieldy, it's overwhelming. 

Sara: 6:43

And I do want to say too that I appreciate the emphasis on not making this so dismal and gloom and doom. But we have to be able to talk about this and plan in a way that I have found clinically that my clients who seem to fare the best, even in some of the worst situations you can imagine, are those who have a really solid sense of humor, a really solid community, and even just an appreciation for the absurd because what we're being asked to do in this situation is to integrate the absurd moving forward. Keeping that in mind, I think is really important. And so having that perspective is just really, it's really helpful. So, to that, and just the last piece before I jump into this is thinking about how long we're living with multiple medical conditions. Most people 65 and older have at least two chronic health conditions, which will need medical management, medication, hospitalizations, all of us are going to need some kind of long-term care needs, whether that's home health, whether that's nursing home level, assisted living, you know, we're all going to need it. And so the earlier we can start talking about this, which is why I love that you're targeting those of us in our 40s and 50s right now, it's because yes, we need to plan this, talk to our parents about this, but we need to start doing this for ourselves too. And so people who are listening might think, oh God, like you're telling me I have to think about this for my parents, and you're also saying it's time for me to start thinking about this for myself. Sorry to be the bearer of that, but if that's possible to kind of integrate that. 

Sara: 8:18

So given that, thinking about issues for an adult child in particular, I see this first bullet point of like resistance to change and help, I don't really think of that as much for the parents as I do for the adult child and the caregiver. What is our resistance to change? What is our resistance to help? I would argue that the baby boom generation has actually been one of the most adaptable, flexible, out of necessity, generations that we have seen. Yes, we can argue that people get locked in their ways and we are comfortable, but I would argue who isn't. And when I work with caregivers, I find that they have sacrificed so much to make sure that their parent, keeping this on like the adult child parent dynamic, they've sacrificed so much to ensure that their parents are safe and comfortable, their autonomy and self-determination are protected at all costs. Their parents' needs are met at the expense of their own. And so what I try to do with my clients is to think about all right, how are you going to prioritize or not lose sight of your own physical needs? Your own emotional and psychological needs. Because they're doing it for their kids too. They're doing it for their kids, they're being pulled in a million directions. And it can sound trivial to say, well, how are you taking care of yourself? But no, really, how are you budgeting your time, budgeting your money? How are you making sure you're getting enough sleep? Exercising, eating well, tending to yourself. And a lot of times that requires adult children to say, I can't take that on, mom. I'm sorry. I can't be the one to do that. And that's a change in like paradigm for adult children. To say, I actually can't be the one to do that. And that leaves people feeling guilty, like they're abandoning their parent. But what will end up happening in the long run is that that enables adult children to be kids, not full 100% caregivers, which can lead to a whole bunch of other stuff. So I don't mean to like completely flip this on its head, but this is where I see that idea of like resistance to change coming up and where I work really hard to help my clients focus on so that they can be better able to support their parents.

Jeremy: 10:46

Do you think of it like Gen X, our kind of population, just keep shouldering everything, right? If it comes at you, you take it on. To have that, I guess, internal understanding to say, hey, I gotta put up the barrier, I gotta say no to certain things.

Sara: 10:59

Absolutely. And I would think of it too is that we're a generation and that ones coming up are much more articulate around emotions, boundaries. You know, we're really good at kind of talking that through in romantic relationships and friendships. But when it comes to our parents, it's a whole different thing. And that's a lot of complicated things with adult children and their parents' relationships. And so there's family history, obligations, sense of moral responsibility for family members. And absolutely, I think that comes with, I got this. Like there's nothing I can't handle. Look at all the other things I've been through. Clearly, I can do this. But what we are finding is that with people living longer with more chronic medical conditions, it's unsustainable. So absolutely.

Jeremy: 11:47

And it kind of goes back to a point you made earlier with the funnel and how we got a supply and demand problem, right? And it's getting worse and worse. Like, do you expect that the paid professionals are going to become more and more important as we get to 2050 and beyond?

Sara: 12:01

They are hands down the most important people in this dynamic here. And what we saw during COVID is that they got hit hardest. And we already have a shortage of like 135,000 medical professionals who are specializing in internal medicine and primary care. Because there's so many specializations and subspecializations, and the pay isn't great enough to meet the demands. But also home health aids. And what we've seen just in the current administration in terms of hits to Medicare, Medicaid, and immigration, that is drastically impacting who's going to be able to provide that care. And in, I think it was 2022, there's over like $600 billion of unpaid. Like if we made the equivalent to how many hours were worked to pay for care for aging people, caregivers are providing that for free, unpaid, informal care. But formalized care, we don't have the financial infrastructure to be able to meet that need. Nor do we have the human power now, given where we're at. So I know how do I counter that and make it sound not dire and fun?

Doug: 13:09

But no, but it is what it is.

Jeremy: 13:11

It’s reality, yeah.

Doug: 13:12 

I swear to God, you have rewired my brain forever in terms of how, from like a macro point of view, we look at this issue with the way that you described the sandwich. On our episode that we had just before this, we were talking about the different generations involved in the sandwich generation, and we kind of assigned them a sandwich, but didn't even think about the sandwich with the missized pieces of bread at the top and bottom to show that supply-demand imbalance. I'm gonna have that in my head forever.

Sara: 13:41

Sorry.

Doug: 13:42

No, it's helpful.

Jeremy: 13:45

One thing that struck me, Sara, and anecdotally, and I don't know if Douglas has the same perspective, but I'm finding a lot of my adult clients, their parents that are in their 80s and 90s actually have long-term care insurance. It was part of the wave when the product was coming up and being sold out there in the industry, but it seems like they were really well set up for some of these expenses. Whereas maybe not so much in their 60s and 70s, it kind of dropped off a little bit. Doug, do you see that in your group?

Doug: 14:13

Yeah, I mean, from a preparedness point of view, I think in some ways it's the concerns can be just the same. One out of five times when we start talking about estate planning with a client, the catalyst is hey, how do I protect my assets from a nursing home? That is a whole nother conversation, but that is really, really hard to do if you want a degree of flexibility. And generally speaking, the same guardrails or protections that you may have had, JV, to your point 30 or 40 years ago, they're prohibitively expensive nowadays. Fewer and fewer of the folks that we work with are we seeing them with those sorts of protections like long-term care. Fewer and fewer times are we recommending it because like sometimes it's so expensive that it's gonna take somebody's potential retirement and send it off kilter too, right?

Jeremy: 14:59

So self-insuring is you know as feasible as getting the insurance, right? 

Doug: 15:04

Right. Right. Yeah, totally seeing that. So maybe we can kind of flip into our next topic here, which is again to go back to football here, right. Poor Drake had a few fumbles last week, but we made it through the game, right. And if we have any concerns about this Patriots team, is hey, how about that offensive line, those big guys that protect the quarterback. Sara, can you kind of take us through a support system? When Jeremy and I are in our role for clients, we get a window into their support system, and we get a window into like, okay, in this family tree, who's the family glue? What do you see when it comes to support around that caretaker and how might you be advising things be a little bit different?

Sara: 15:48

Sure. So another visual that I think is helpful.

Doug: 15:51

Is it another sandwich?

Sara: 15:53

No, it's not.

Doug: 15:54

Aww, it's okay. We'll go with it anyways.

Sara: 15:57

It is more of a bullseye, I would say, and thinking about if you put the caregiver themselves knowing who they're caring for, kids, parents in the very center. And then the next circle out, thinking of like, okay, well, who are the people close to that person who can offer support and care? And so oftentimes that's family members who live in the same house. So what can my, you know, 13, 14 year old help with? If I have a spouse, what can my spouse or partner help with? And then thinking the next ring out. What are my relationships like with my neighbors? Like who can I rely on if I need to put a care plan in place? Like are there people besides me? It's like having an emergency contact list. Like who are the closest people? Maybe a third ring out, family members who don't live close but provide a significant amount of support, whether it's financial or emotional, even logistical support from afar. And then the next ring out, okay, who are the healthcare providers, who are the formal paid caregivers that can help? And from different domains. And I know that I have talked to you about this before, Doug, but who are a caregiver's social supports, emotional supports, financial support, spiritual supports? I can't underestimate the impact of communities, different types of communities that are supports for people. And so really kind of going to that idea of like, I got this, don't worry. Well, you got it to a point. But who are the people in those rings as you go out and out further out who can help keep it together?

Jeremy: 17:36

Sara, question for you. And so I'm gonna do the analogy. I'm right in this. This is happening as we speak, right? My wife is Drake Maye. She is trying to throw the ball to the end zone in Ohio. And she drops back to pass. She's a righty. So her back, she's getting attacked from the back. So I'm playing the offense. I'm Will Campbell. I'm playing the left tackle. Trying my best, but they're coming at me, right? Getting through me to get to her. What can I do as this primary support for the quarterback?

Sara: 18:08

So you have to forgive me because I am gonna fail miserably with this analogy. But what I would say is that I know that athletes train and they prepare for those moments, but there are always unforeseeable wild cards that happen. And so what I would say is that in that moment, what preparation has been done leading up to even unpredictable things. And so this really emphasizes to me the importance of having plans or plays. And so thinking about, all right, I have at least one of three options that I can do in this situation. Even if none of those three things gets executed, I've at least had a chance to practice, to rehearse, to think about subsequent consequences of whatever one of those plans I make. But I would say in that crisis moment, in that really important split second that you have to make a decision, just knowing that you have plans and you've rehearsed, adds a pause, even if it's a split second, adds a pause to make a choice instead of having choices be made for you. It feels like that. It's urgent. And what I really encourage people to do is have conversations early with family members, talk about these things, think about worst-case scenario, think about just a slight impairment or change in level of function. Think about a middle-of-the-road scenario. And then that will help when those like split second moments come up that feel really heavy and that are crises to have the ability to have some agency or some control over where this goes. Because what happens is people often get into a situation where decisions are being made for them, not with them. And the preparation and the practice for as uncomfortable and as hard as it is, and as grueling as it is, and resistant people are to talking about it, that is the most important aspect of it all.

Doug: 20:10

I think you did great with the metaphor. Practice, rehearsal.

Sara: 20:11

I tried. I tried.

Doug: 20:15

It's the playbook, it's the watching film and studying up. 

Jeremy: 20:19

Sounds a lot like financial planning, too.

Sara: 20:21

Yes, that piece, playbook, watching film. Like, I often really want to know what did you see your parents do for their parents?

Doug: 20:28

Yeah.

Sara: 20:28

What did you see your parents, like, what are your parents doing for each other? What is your expectation that your spouse will do for you? What's your future plan? Because all of that helps inform next steps.

Doug: 20:42

I want to go back to your bullseye and your target because that was another great image. I guess two quick questions. I'm wondering if you actually take your clients physically, visually through that target. And then when you do, I'm curious about what roles you would like to see filled out on that set of bullseyes and that set of rings. Like who should be on that team? Who's the special teams?

Sara: 21:04

I do this with people. There are a couple of tools I use. One is called a genogram. It's like a family tree, but it can identify types of relationships and strengths or strains in relationships. But the bullseye also, like I just print it out or draw it, have people draw it. What I see people have the most, the strongest connections with is when there are people that they can absolutely rely on, and whether that's people who they are emotionally and socially close to, or people that they can pay. So those are people like elder law attorneys. So I'm thinking of like the formal people. So elder law attorneys, geriatric care managers. If there are home health agencies that are involved, even on the outer I'm going out to in, I think. Aging service access points. Every kind of area in Massachusetts has a number of cities that have an agency that is responsible for aging service distribution in the geographic area. So Watertown falls under Springwell. So you may hear these, Minuteman, Cambridge Elder Services. There’s a whole lot in this area. So those people. 

Sara: 22:12

And then next level in, physicians. Are you connected to your parents’, within reason, right? To not completely lose yourself to your parents' electronic health record and notifications of prescriptions being filled and procedures and appointments coming up. But what access do you have that if in an emergency you need to step in? And then I think documentation would fall in that too. So, like what kinds of tangible things do you have? Healthcare proxy, power of attorney for financial support, living will documents. Sometimes people use what's called a five wishes document as well that kind of outlines here's what I would want to have happen in the event that I can't make a decision for my own medical care or my own financial planning. So but those tie into the paid professionals. So getting people to help guide, like you guys, like planning for these, for these documents to then put the outer circle folks into action if your parent can't make decisions for themselves. And then the people closest without burning them out, right? So if it's spouses, partners, your own kids, neighbors, friends. I can't emphasize the importance of community and chosen family enough, especially the people who live far away.

Doug: 23:28

So you gave us a good segway here as we talk a little bit about estate planning and documentation. We talked about the QB, we talked about the O-line and special team structure and support. Let's get to defense. So issue number three here is financial blocking and tackling. So this is our defensive portion of the sandwich generation conversation and gets into a little bit of what the day-to-day is like for Jeremy and myself. Sara, you and I had talked a little bit the other week in preparation for this about your point of view from finances. And I think a role that Jeremy and I are able to play is just knowledge is power, right? So when there is an adult child who is starting to take the reins of finances, it's just sometimes the most important thing is A getting through that first step that they are not going in alone because maybe we've been working with their parent for a long time and we actually have the narrative of their financial journey and we have the information of where their accounts are, whether they're with us or with someone else, and just helping to provide that person and sometimes that family with the information of here's where everything is, you know, and actually here's the things that have been missing that we've heard about that we don't know a lot of details about. So I think part of our role oftentimes is trying to take some of the financial blocking and tackling off their plate because it's the one thing that we can do, maybe simplifying it a little bit because, you know, through some of our processes that we have in our office and some of the software that we use, you know, we're the one that can always keep a relatively up-to-date balance sheet of what the client has and what their expectation could be to afford care or to self-insure, like we were talking about, Jeremy. That's our role in things. Sara, you and I were talking a little bit about fraud and how that's become a big issue in your practice. Jeremy and I are seeing that a lot more. I had multiple conversations in the fourth quarter of last year of clients of all different ages and along the spectrum of having fraud issues, whether it was credit card fraud or checking account fraud or just being defrauded in different ways. Sara, could you get into like a little bit of what you see in practice of financial security, fraud issues? And then maybe Jeremy and I can kind of tackle what we've been doing to help clients with that.

Sara: 25:45

Sure. I will start this piece by saying that knowledge and psychoeducation around what this is is so important. And to understand that this is happening to everyone, regardless of your age, regardless of your cognitive capacity. It is happening to so many people and it has such lasting negative impacts, not just financially, but psychologically and emotionally, what it is doing to people. And older adults are a vulnerable group when it comes to being targeted for fraud. And we can't even keep up with what's happening quick enough to be able to put enough guardrails in, but I will just say that AARP does a really great job of educating folks around financial protections and what to do if you experience fraud. I've seen very similar emotional and psychological reactions to fraud, regardless of how much money it was taken, whether it's like $600 or $125,000. I've seen people, especially as they get older, if it has happened to them where their credit card has been hacked or they were taken advantage of by a perpetrator. And I'm really unintentional during the language that I use because I don't want to say fell for a scam, got duped, because it's very intentional, it's very targeted. Oftentimes people are living with, 65 and older, living with multiple medical conditions, maybe on medications that impact their cognition, they may be experiencing grief or the loss of someone. All of those things impact someone's ability to make decisions. And when someone is violated in that way, it sets off a sense of not being able to trust themselves, doubting that they're making sound decisions. They think I can't trust this financial institution anymore, but it's me that did it. And it just sets off a spiral for people who then often feel scared to tell their adult kids because oh, that's gonna be evidence to them that I just can't take care of myself anymore. They already think I shouldn't be driving. Why would I tell them that I lost $250,000 because I got a text message that said I needed to submit this information to be able to secure my money? And so it sets off a lot of psychological effects that then keep people really stuck and paralyzed and afraid to ask for help. And it kind of just goes right to the core of the number one concerns of people who are 65 and older as they get older is paying for their health care. And so when that is tapped into and that is violated and unrecoverable, it's not just the money that impacts them, it's so many other things.

Doug: 28:24

I see that. I can understand that. It's interesting because I had a couple of meetings recently with my adult clients’ younger kids. And I'm thinking about how in my conversation with these young people who are maybe still in college, maybe starting to launch, in my conversation with them, I am recommending that they start to expand their financial footprint. So, in other words, they have like a checking account, a savings account, and maybe it's time to think about something for intermediate term, long term. They're getting zero at their large national bank. Maybe it makes some sense to look at an online bank or something like that, right. At the very beginning of the story, the first inning of your financial planning, oftentimes it's like, okay, we need to add a little bit of complexity so that you can get maybe a better return for the long haul, or you have these different buckets for different financial goals. 

Doug: 29:14

Let's fast forward to the seventh, eighth, ninth inning. I think with our clients who are a little bit older, we're looking at the opposite, right. They have a lifetime of relationships with different banks and financial institutions to borrow money, to invest money, to save money. And it's not uncommon that when we're helping to keep track of things, they're doing business with 10 or a dozen financial institutions. And I think one of the things that we're seeing and recommending is like, hey, let's simplify this. Let's actually reduce your financial footprint. Part and parcel, so you know where your stuff is, right. And if you know where your stuff is, it's a little bit easier to keep track of. And that might be, okay, I was doing business with four banks, and maybe now I'm down to two for two specific reasons, or maybe I'm with two and I'm down to one. Maybe I'm doing business with three to four investment firms, and now I need to get that down to one or two. And especially where it comes to borrowing, JV, I don't know where you would rank this, but I think borrowing is actually where I've seen the most amount of fraud, which is fake credit cards or fake loans that have been taken out in clients' names or fear of such a thing, too. Just reducing your financial footprint of the credit cards that you have, the banks that you may or may not borrow from. I don't know. I feel like that's what I've seen in the last couple of months. Jeremy, what do you feel like you have experienced recently or any themes that came up with fraud for 2025?

Jeremy: 30:38

I think I would echo what you're saying on the loans. Didn't you have a case in point where somebody had bought a car or a truck that they didn't buy? 

Doug: 30:46

Yes. 

Jeremy: 30:47

That was a crazy story, right? So I think, yeah, I'd say that that's probably the most common case than anything else.

Doug: 30:53

I think we can kind of wrap up this topic and then really get into some fun with our dad joke segment. But maybe to wrap this up, I feel like I almost want to start taking clients through that bullseye and those rings. And I think Jeremy and I are lucky enough that in our role with some of our clients, we sit adjacent to some of the other people in some of these outer rings. We’ll work with an accountant, we’ll work with an estate planner. If we're really lucky, we're part of this team that surrounds our client. And maybe the caretaker who has the power of attorney or who is helping their parent make financial decisions, we're watching this teamwork happen. And when the teamwork happens, I think it's, maybe there's a slight element of less stress because you at least have the knowledge of like, okay, where is everything? How much can we afford? When there's a catalyst that we move from the home that you've been in for 40 years to something simpler or apartment to an assisted living, like how does that work? It's probably one of the most enjoyable roles I know I have doing this 28 plus years is kind of playing a role when there's professionals kind of working together to take something off the plate, you feel pretty good about what you're doing. But I do feel like I want to take clients through that a little bit deeper for those areas that we're not trained for, that we can't help with, but maybe through, Sara, to your point, community, like you and I are tied to the Watertown business community, right? Trying to find other people like yourself who can fill a role that we can't, that the caretaker can't. So, anyways, again, taken by that bullseye, I might start using that myself. So thanks for bringing that up. Friends, do we have any parting thoughts on the issue before we wrap this one up?

Sara: 32:27

I just briefly say, just to reiterate, I am really glad that you're doing this. You see what's happening, you almost can see better than anyone what's happening. And so it would be such a disservice if you weren't doing this for your clients. And not just for your clients, because anybody can listen to the series that you're doing and they can hear some of these issues that you're seeing. And so I am just very grateful that you're putting this in a spotlight for early this year because it's not just for our parents, but for us too.

Doug: 33:00

Yeah, great. Well, thank you. Appreciate all the work that you do in our community. Thanks for today, too. I'm not kidding. Every conversation that we have about some sort of topic, especially when we have a guest here or we're networking or we're just having lunch with somebody in the community, just offers a chance to think about things differently. I'm literally thinking about this whole issue visually a little bit differently. So thank you. Appreciate that.

Jeremy: 33:24

And one thing, Sara, I always tell Doug about this is like the unexpectedness of this profession. And it's dominated by psychology, it's dominated by family matters, it's dominated by all the things we're talking about here. Right, I always say the math is easy. This is the hard part. 

Doug: 33:41

Yeah. 

Jeremy: 33:42

So thank you for everything you do.

Sara: 33:44

Yeah, thank you. Thank you both.

Doug: 33:46

And thanks for keeping up with all the football nonsense, too. You know? Appreciate it.

Sara: 33:50

When you do, like I said, when you do a musical theater equivalent, I will be so much more eloquent.

Jeremy: 33:58

Well, you know what, Sara? I think I might be able to quench that thirst here.

Sara: 34:02

Okay.

Jeremy: 34:03

So I got three jokes today. They're kind of a smorgasbord. [Hold on. Daddy! Don't try to be cool. Don't try to be cool, bro, with your dad jokes.] I'm gonna start with one that my son gave me. So he's nine, he's in third grade. It's kind of Christmas themed, so bringing it back a little bit. And the joke is why are Christmas trees bad at knitting?

Sara: 34:29

Something to do with needles.

Doug: 34:30

Because their needles fall off?

Doug: 34:32

They're always dropping their needles. 

Sara: 34:34

Good job team. 

Doug: 34:35

I think that's the second one I've gotten in nine months.

Jeremy: 34:37

Yeah, that's pretty good. Well done. Sara had it right off the jump, though. Okay, number two. This was from a friend of mine, a good friend of mine. He asked, why is it illegal to laugh loudly in Hawaii?

Doug: 34:51

Something aloha, honohuhu.

Jeremy: 34:55

Gotta keep it to aloha. 

Doug: 34:57

Ugh, wow. 

Jeremy: 35:01

I'm giving you 75% credit for that. That was an impressive response. All right. Last one. And this I kind of read some of the emails flying around. So hopefully this is relevant. But what do you call a snowman doing karaoke?

Sara: 35:18

Don't give us the answer yet. I need to figure this out.

Doug: 35:22

The determined look on, I wish this is a video podcast because I just saw sheer determination come across your face.

Sara: 35:30

Oh no.

Jeremy: 35:31

I think this is relevant, right?

Sara: 35:32

Well, karaoke is like, I should have said, do karaoke, everybody do karaoke, and all your problems will be solved. Wait, oh man.

Doug: 35:41

Repeat the riddle one more time. 

Jeremy: 35:42

Repeat it. What do you call a snowman doing karaoke?

Sara: 35:47

The happiest snowman on the planet. I don't know.

Doug: 35:52

Frosty the karaoke man.

Jeremy: 35:54

Ready? 

Doug: 35:55

We are.

Jeremy: 35:56

A snow tune. 

Doug: 35:58

Wow.

Sara: 36:00

Snowtune. I got it. A showtune. Yes, that's so good.

Doug: 36:07

Sara's day, made.

Jeremy: 36:09

Made. Great, yes. 

Doug: 36:11

At least you'll look back on today and be like, hey, how was your day, Sara? It's like, well, I had to do some silly podcast. However, great joke, here it is.

Sara: 36:18

Oh, that’s so good. It always takes me a minute. It takes me a minute. And then when it clicks.

Jeremy: 36:24

You guys really did great today.

Sara: 36:25

Thank you.

Doug: 36:26

Well done. Good vetting. Hey Sara, if somebody wants to get in touch with you, could you let them know how to find you?

Sara: 36:32

Sure, you can find my website, caregivercc.com, which stands for Caregiver Counseling and Consultation. You can email me at Sara Keary, S A R A K E A R Y P H D at Gmail.com.

Doug: 36:50

Thank you for all you do. Appreciate you being here. If you do have any questions for Jeremy or myself, you can always reach out to us. We're at info at arsenalfinancial.com. Feel free to call the office 781-335-9100. You can talk to the famous Heather Harris. Thank you for tuning in. A shout out as always to our friend and producer, Matt Hanna. If you live here in Watertown and you are a fan of or have not listened to Matt's Little Local Conversations, please check that out. Great podcast that Matt does where he interviews people like Dr. Sara Keary to interview people in our community here in Watertown. So, Matt, thanks for all you do. Thanks for making this easy for us. And we will catch you next time on the Arsenal Money Clip Podcast. 

Matt: 37:42

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