Steph Carr: Anxiety, ADHD, and the long path to a diagnosis

In this episode of Invisible Me, host Pat Porter speaks with Steph Carr about her experiences living with anxiety and ADHD.

Steph discusses her struggles with social anxiety from a young age, the challenges she faced in school, and her journey towards receiving a diagnosis for ADHD as an adult. Steph also shares the difficulties she has encountered in getting her son assessed, diagnosed and treated for suspected ADHD.

As a teacher, Steph shares her insights on how the education system could be reformed to better accommodate students with special educational needs (SEN), with a focus on greater awareness, understanding, and individual support.

Intro music by Ben Blanchard. 

Edited by Tom Haigh.

Transcript

PAT PORTER  
Welcome to Invisible Me, a podcast centered around invisible health issues and the feeling of not being seen and heard. Yet here I am standing right in front of you. Does this sound familiar? Well come join the conversation, share your experiences. Let's break down those norms and attitudes for the better. This is a safe space to chat with me, Pat. Welcome Steph.

STEPH CARR  
Hello.

PAT PORTER  
Thank you for coming along and spending some time with us today. Much appreciated. I know you're a mum. Lots of little kiddies, busy life, partner, family, and a career, which is awesome. So I'm personally aware of friends and family and people I know really close to me, that has been diagnosed with anxiety. Back in the day, it was like, oh, she's got a problem, or she's not, she's a nervous person. She suffers with her nerves. And that's what was said when I was growing up. But anxiety has always been around. It's not a new thing. But it's become a new thing because it's being spoken about in the media, adverts, TV. It's there. And it's a proper diagnosis. And I think it's GAD which you might correct me? So tell me a little bit if you're okay about that, explaining it to me, like I've heard about it for the first time.

STEPH CARR  
I think the term GAD so Generalized Anxiety Disorder, that used to really annoy me, because it sort of put me in a box. And the doctor would be like, well, you've just got general anxiety. But for me, it was sort of more than that. I struggled mostly with social anxiety from a very young age.

PAT PORTER  
Do you feel that's two separate things, or part of the one thing?

STEPH CARR  
I think it's all part of one. But I think a lot of doctors can just sort of give people this GAD diagnosis. And obviously, there's within anxiety, it's a quite a broad spectrum of different things. So you've got OCD, then obviously, I believe that ADHD is within that as well and it's all linked. But I'd say I was about 14-15 When I first got diagnosed, and I did have, I'd say quite a unsettled childhood. And my anxiety manifested itself mainly within social aspects, so I didn't really have any friends and I couldn't really relate to other people. I didn't sleep very well, I was worried all the time. And I'd pick my skin a lot. And I did that for I think about 10 or 12 years that I carried that with me throughout my life.

PAT PORTER  
Did you try to hide that?

STEPH CARR  
All the time. 

PAT PORTER  
Somebody might see me picking my fingernails or whatever.

STEPH CARR  
It was only on my hands. I still do it now on my thumbs. But I used to have just on one knuckle. And over the past year, I've managed to actually get rid of that. And it's scarred. But I can now actually, like, hold a wine glass or a drink without being fearful of somebody else seeing it, because I always used to try and hide my hands in my sleeves and stuff.

PAT PORTER  
Thank you for telling me that. Because that's very personal.

STEPH CARR  
It's a very common thing though.

PAT PORTER  
Now you've said I can actually think of three more people. Because I've seen their hands. And I saw them, but it didn't actually make any connections. So thank you for educating us on that

STEPH CARR  
It's really common.

PAT PORTER  
Did you feel dismissed by the doctors when they'd say it's just GAD? And then did you feel like pushed to one side and here's some medication and get on with it? Or is there a support? Is there help more than you helping yourself?

STEPH CARR  
I definitely felt supported when I was younger. So I think around 13-14 we used to have school nurses back then. We don't really have that now. I had a really lovely school nurse and I went to talk to her and she was the first person to put me in touch with a counselor. So I had little bit of counseling with a lady once a week. And that really helped. And then after that, I did have quite a bit of support from my doctor. But yeah, just had like consecutive sessions of CBT counselling. I tried EMDR.

PAT PORTER  
So CBT is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

STEPH CARR  
Yeah. And then there's different types of that as well.

PAT PORTER  
And what's EMDR? I haven't heard that one before.

STEPH CARR  
So EMDR is to do with if you've had trauma in your past,. So it doesn't have to be like physical trauma. It can be psychological trauma. And you basically watch the psychologist's finger go from side to side. And it gets both parts of your brain to work together and try and process some of the things that might have happened to you so you can try and work through that. And it can open quite a lot of doors.

PAT PORTER  
Like getting your brain in harmony. So the brain's fully working to be more productive for you. To give you the strength when you come across things that triggers.

STEPH CARR  
To try and process it.

PAT PORTER  
So you're re-training the brain to help you yourself. I'm gonna have to have another session on this!

STEPH CARR  
It was very good, I had quite a few sessions of that and it did help. And CBT helped, I had quite a lot of intense CBT sessions. And of course, you've got to do your homework with CBT. You've got to put it into practice. But I think obviously, with having ADHD, doing that CBT homework, I could never....

PAT PORTER  
Fit it in or not do it?

STEPH CARR  
Never continue it. I find myself starting things and I never really finish them.

PAT PORTER  
Now that's a leading question. That's like leading statement. I love that because I'm smiling about that. 'Cause it rings true to me. I know I'm not diagnosed ADD. And I'm sure if I went for the tests they would say 100%. Because I've researched it a little bit for myself personally. Because isn't now to as an adult, and people like yourself sharing your stories, I'm recognizing traits in myself and go, oh, I've been like this since I'm like 10 years old, or actually four years old. Tell you a little funny story. Church - being brought up in a Christian family. And that's, that's all good. And I remember my mum turned around to me and saying, "Sit still." And I could never sit still on the seat. I mean, she'd say that all of us and all mums do that anyway. But I literally, it was ginormous for me to do. So I remember she let me gather up all the hymn books and the Bibles that were around, and I built houses with them. So that kept me quiet and mum was okay about me being quiet, as long as it wasn't drawing attention.

STEPH CARR  
It's good she was understanding though, and she saw that you physically couldn't, because a lot of parents just...

PAT PORTER  
So I think it was there all the way through. And I am a fidgeter, I will play with pins and Blu Tack and paper clips, whatever is nearby. So that's my, almost like my CBT, I'm tapping I'm doing something unconsciously. But like you said, it's always been there. You're super resilient, you had a difficult journey at a young age, and you have found ways around it, you sought out good people. I'm delighted you had support. And you, you have to connect with the counselor, you have to connect with the nurse, the doctor. It has to work, you have to like each other for that trust. It's massive trust. So I'm really pleased that's happened for you. And thank you for telling us a bit about all the different elements. So then you're in your teens, did you go to college, where you working? What what was the next stages in your life?

STEPH CARR  
So all the way through school I did find it quite difficult. So primary and middle school, I never sort of really had any friends, and I would drift from group to group, I never really fit in. And I got to, I think I might have been about 16, during A levels. And I did my first year of A levels. And then the second year, I moved out of home. And I went to live with a friend. And that was the point where I didn't really go to school anymore. I sort of started to skiving off a bit and yeah, things weren't great.

PAT PORTER  
Was it because you didn't felt you belonged or you fitted in, it was just school wasn't a happy place?

STEPH CARR  
It wasn't a happy place, there was a lot going on. I was struggling with my relationship with my boyfriend at that time as well. Middle School was difficult as well. Again, didn't really have any friends. And then I did actually make a one friend, a best friend. And she turned out to be part of like a cult, like a Christian cult. And I ended up losing her because of course her parents decided to home homeschool her. So I didn't really, I felt like I was an outsider. And I think I took some time, everything becomes a little bit blurry. I don't remember stuff very well from when I actually left home. But I sort of just lost my way a little bit and I just did college course after college course to see where I might sort of end up. So I did Level 2 Beauty Therapy, which I managed to pass but again found it really difficult because of the ADHD. And then I did Animal Level 3, Animal Management. And again, I don't think I completed that course, I think I moved colleges. So got half a qualification. And then after that I took some more time out. And then I think that's when I met my partner, who I'm with now and then we had children, and then I finally went back to university. So I did everything sort of a bit muddled and backwards, but I'm happy with where I am now.

PAT PORTER  
No, it's commendable. It's all good.

STEPH CARR  
But I just feel like it was such a strange journey to get to where I am, and quite a struggle, because there was a lot going on and I couldn't...

PAT PORTER  
And lots of change  all the time. All the time.

STEPH CARR  
There was no stability really, I don't think for me.

PAT PORTER  
Well, you're stability for others, because you're telling your story, and this is wonderful. And you said you felt you kind of didn't fit and you always felt on the outside, and trying to belong and all that. Can I just ask  - how did others see you? What did you hear from them? Like, neighbors or family or just others in your environment. Did they just think you were odd or she's a loner? Because people are terrible. We call each other names, put labels on people all the time. Yeah, kids are the worst.

STEPH CARR  
Yeah, kids are cruel.

PAT PORTER  
You experienced that as well?

STEPH CARR  
Yeah definitely.

PAT PORTER  
Something wrong with her.

STEPH CARR  
In primary school I was always separate from everybody else. And even the teachers would sort of, I'd be like the naughty child. And I remember my head teacher standing me up in assembly in front of everybody and saying, "This student has been naughty." And I can remember being stood there as a little girl at the front of the assembly. My mum actually moved me from that school, and put me into a different school, and still I struggled to maintain any friendships. But yeah, I guess people just thought I was strange, and just a bit weird. And I think the more you seem to be on your own, the more people they daren't come near you, and they just leave you. And you end up feeling on the outside.

PAT PORTER  
I can relate to all of that, with other family members and people I know that they're struggling with school, and that's social thing and the pressure of it. But picking up on something you said a little earlier about when you were 15 to 16. When you're that age, generally, your world is all about you. And we do think we're right. And we do think we're, an injustice has happened, and how dare people control me and tell me what to do. And we've become quite powerful in ourselves, and we don't want to hear advice. And we're on our own little journey. And it isn't now till we're in our, I'll just say in our 30s, for the audience to know my age! [laughs] Will I get away with that one? In our 30s we do reflect back because we now have our own kids and different responsibilities and then realize, well, actually, 15 and 16. Yeah, my parents or whoever. What do you think society could do now to make an improvement? Because we are learning from people's experiences. What do you think schools should do? What would you like, if you could... 

STEPH CARR  
Oh God, how long have you got!

PAT PORTER  
You know, for these kids that stand out? They should be nurtured and not named the naughty kid or the cheeky kid and punished because they get punished for their behaviors. How can we fix that?

STEPH CARR  
I think there used to be a complete reform, really, of schools altogether. Because I think it's sort of ancient, there's the systems and the strategies and techniques that schools have, they're so outdated. And we've got this system where it's one size fits all. And it, it just doesn't. 

PAT PORTER  
Makes me angry. 

STEPH CARR  
And being a teacher myself, I've found it very difficult to try and work with that system and get students through courses. But I think educating students more about different psychological problems - we call them problems, they're not really - psychological traits or personality traits. If people were educated within lessons about them, so you know how you've got your PHCE lessons and things like that, I think if students knew, like, what anxiety was, or it's okay... 

PAT PORTER  
...to be not okay.

STEPH CARR  
Yeah. To not feel okay and not be okay.

PAT PORTER  
Make room for it.

STEPH CARR  
Yeah, make room for it. But I'm not, it's okay teaching all that. But then you're in an education system that doesn't really meet those needs. So it's very difficult. I'm not, I think to improve, then, there's got to be a huge

PAT PORTER  
National, yeah, it has to be, to come from the top and work its way down.

STEPH CARR  
And work with the parents as well.

PAT PORTER  
Very much so. Because they need help too, they're at a loss.

STEPH CARR  
And a lot of the responsibility, obviously, is put on the parents to get these diagnoses and support and help. But you just go around in circles forever trying to get different assessments.

PAT PORTER  
It's exhausting. Exhausting living that life as well. This is why I'm a big fan of apprenticeships. I think they're brilliant. I'm glad they're back and back and full force, because myself included and other fidgeters and ADD and ADHD and all the other good stuff. Because this group of people, me included, we're awesome! Our brains just think differently. So we're very creative. Hence, our minds are running at 100 miles an hour, but with all good stuff. But because we can't slow it down to fit the criteria school wants us to write on paper and be graded, it's so so difficult. So apprenticeships allows us to explore like the beauty, the animal welfare, all the different courses. And it's different. And you still get that sense of pride and accomplishment and valued and seen because you're doing this particular course you like, and you can try something else, and not be ridiculed for it. And it's a different way of learning. We don't all have to conform and get A levels and tick these boxes and go to university. Society needs us all in there. And I think we're an elite group that needs to be included and loved and encouraged.

STEPH CARR  
Definitely.

PAT PORTER  
But as you said, we're fighting against a very arcane system. And you teach, look at your success! You know, you're amazing. Despite all odds and all obstacles you've come over, look what you are, you're a mum yourself, very happy in life and teaching. And you're spotting this in others, so you're nurturing your students, you're doing your own wee bit. Regardless of what was expected of the teacher, you go that extra mile.

STEPH CARR  
It's still difficult, though, because you can spot those students a mile off. But because you're not qualified to diagnose, you can't then go to the parents and say, oh, I think your child's got ADHD. You can say, well, I think there might be traits here. But yeah, you can definitely spot a mile off those that are, that are struggling, because again, they can't fit into this education system that expects you to just sit still for two hours and get on with some writing, and do the practical that you're expected to do, and it doesn't work like that for people with ADHD. Then they end up feeling so demotivated and low self esteem, because they think well, why can't I sit here and and write? Why haven't I got the concentration that others have?

PAT PORTER  
And then, hence sometimes bad behavior comes out because they don't know how to control those, get those thoughts out. So they act it out, and then kids get into trouble and all sorts. So it's so hard.

STEPH CARR  
I think teachers have got to be trained as well to be more inclusive. And that's difficult. Because if you've got a class of 20 or 30 kids, and every child is different, and then you've got those with additional needs and different personality traits, ADHD, autism, all this stuff going on, you're supposed to adapt that lesson to meet everybody's needs. It's not always possible. But if teachers had more effective training, to be able to do that, I think that would help.

PAT PORTER  
And all the way through support assistants, the dinner lady, everybody.

STEPH CARR  
They're vital.

PAT PORTER  
Everybody, because they're all part of that little person's life that day.

STEPH CARR  
Yeah, exactly.

PAT PORTER  
So on the back of all of that, where we are now, how easy or difficult is it to actually get a confirmed diagnosis for the child to get any help?

STEPH CARR  
For the child or the adult?

PAT PORTER  
Well, we've got two stories, child and adult. In the school system, and then as an adult,

STEPH CARR  
Yeah. So basically, since about 2, I've always thought that he had ADHD, there was something going on with his cognitive processing, something not quite... And he really did struggle to sit still, climbing everywhere, constant accidents, because he'd jump off things and just not see any danger. Constant humming, talking, singing, throwing stuff all the time, just he met all the criteria. And we put him in a primary school that, it was a good primary school, but they weren't really, they didn't pick up on his needs. They weren't supportive of that. And if I ever tried to mention anything, they would just be quite dismissive, and....

PAT PORTER  
Overprotective parent, interfering parent... 

STEPH CARR  
Something you're doing at home, perhaps you can try this behavior strategy at home, and it will just magically make everything better! And then we went to the GP and got referred to a pediatrician. So that takes time, that can take up to three months. Then we saw the pediatrician, and she just basically said, I'd be very surprised if you didn't get a diagnosis for ADHD because of course, he was bounding around the office and picking up the stethoscope and all this stuff that, and I let him do it because I thought I need them to see what he's like.

PAT PORTER  
In action, yes.

STEPH CARR  
And then after that, we got a referral. Obviously, she'd referred us then to CAMHS, which again, you're waiting a couple of months.

PAT PORTER  
CAMS stands for?

STEPH CARR  
Community And Mental Health Service? [Children and Adolescent Mental Health Services] But I think there's a children's...

PAT PORTER  
Yeah there's a children's deartment within it. Yeah. Thank you.

STEPH CARR  
So obviously CAMHS got back to us within a couple of months, not to do the assessment, just to tell us that we're putting him on the waiting list basically. And then they sent a load of paperwork through for me to fill out and you get a huge booklet. And you've got to fill out all the child's history and parents' history, if they've got mental health problems as well, and you draw a little family tree, and it asks you all these questions about...

PAT PORTER  
And that's a big chore.

STEPH CARR  
...how the child is at home and...

PAT PORTER  
For you as well.

STEPH CARR  
Massive. If you've got ADHD, and you're trying to fill out a form like that, don't even get me started on the PIP forms as well.

PAT PORTER  
Oh, no. That's another episode! 

STEPH CARR  
That's a completely other episode. So yeah, huge forms to do. And then you package them all up, send them back off, Hope they get there. And of course, I didn't hear anything after that. And I think it was about, I kept chasing them up. And they said, "Oh, we haven't got anything." I believe they lost all the forms, basically. So that went on for a good two or three years, backwards and forwards trying to contact them with forms. And we just never got anything through. And I'd sort of - I think I'd got pregnant. I think I was then pregnant with my second. So things were all up in the air, and we actually moved and put him in another school.

PAT PORTER  
So he's like five or six years old now.

STEPH CARR  
Yeah.

PAT PORTER  
You know, really in mainstream school.

STEPH CARR  
Yes. So we'd moved him to a different school. Second day, when he got into his new school, they put him on the SEN register. I didn't say anything to them. They didn't know about any...

PAT PORTER  
That was good. Somebody spotted something.

STEPH CARR  
Yes. And I thought, I just went [exhales in relief].

PAT PORTER  
Yes!

STEPH CARR  
And then ever since then we've been collecting evidence. And we tried to re-refer him through the GP, and she has done. And eventually he got put on the CAMHS waiting list again. And I got this letter through saying your child is on the list for an ASD and an ADHD assessment. The waiting list is between two and three years. And that's sort of where we are now. And during this time I've been backwards and forwards to the GP about different things to try and get support with that. And of course, there's like nothing that they want to do, because as a child they don't want to medicate. And they just keep throwing information at me. And I'm like, but it's part of his condition. 

PAT PORTER  
And I know I'm his mum. Yeah.

STEPH CARR  
And obviously, when you try different sleep strategies for like five or six years, and nothing's working, you're just like  literally screaming for support from anybody. And you're just stuck on a waiting list. So they've asked us now to try Right to Choose, which is another option for people.

PAT PORTER  
Is this a new government level initiative?

STEPH CARR  
I don't think it's a new thing. I don't think it's new. I think it's just that people don't know about it. But we all have the right to choose our care. And so that means that I could go to a private clinic, like, for example, Clinical Partners, which is a private assessment clinic for ADHD and other things. And I could go privately, but the NHS would...

PAT PORTER  
Have to honor it.

STEPH CARR  
Fund it. Yeah. But a lot of people are doing that now. So there's massive waiting lists with that, which is two years. So I figured out I'm just gonna have to pay for it. So I've got a price up of what I need to get him assessed and a trial of medication if we decide to go that route. And I think it's come to about £2300.

PAT PORTER  
For now.

STEPH CARR  
Yeah.

PAT PORTER  
To get going.

STEPH CARR  
Yeah, so I've got £300 so far!

PAT PORTER  
We need to get a Go Fund Me page for you.

STEPH CARR  
Okay.

PAT PORTER  
We'll get everybody listening in to, we'll get a GoFundMe. Because this is, this is many, many years. And for a parent that hasn't anxiety or anything else it's it's a massive mental exhausting chore for your child.

STEPH CARR  
Yeah.

PAT PORTER  
And then that affects the other children in the house and it splills out in the whole family. So you're all on this difficult journey. And all you're saying is help!

STEPH CARR  
We've written letter after letter, we've had to try and expedite it, head teachers, people that ... I don't know if anybody knows a charity SELFA.

PAT PORTER  
Yes.

STEPH CARR  
Amazing.

PAT PORTER  
There's nice variety in activities and it's a good, safe place to go. It's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking hearing your story. I'm just sad, a modern, advanced society that we're moving along and isn't really addressing this.

STEPH CARR  
There's so many people waiting for a diagnosis.

PAT PORTER  
My goodness. And then - take a breath. If you have the energy to tell your own little story and how your diagnosis is going.

STEPH CARR  
So I've actually got a full diagnosis for ADHD. Severe ADHD.

PAT PORTER  
Can you remember the date, can you remember exactly when you got it?

STEPH CARR  
I think it was sometime last year.

PAT PORTER  
There you go. How long has that taken?

STEPH CARR  
Five years. On a waiting list. Yeah. But I was happy to wait because I thought well, it's gone on for this long.

PAT PORTER  
From the day of your diagnosis or that week, how transformative was that? How did you feel? What, how was the reaction? 

STEPH CARR  
I guess it was, I guess I knew already. I just, again, I just breathed like a sigh of relief. Yeah. I wasn't shocked. And it was sort of a bit of closure. Because I think when you get diagnosed with anxiety from like the age of 15, and you've done so, so many different CBT courses, counseling, EMDR, you try about six different types of medication and nothing's working. At that point. I was quite excited to try the ADHD medication and try getting things sorted.

PAT PORTER  
And your on that, there's a specific medicine you take?

STEPH CARR  
Yeah, yeah. There's different medicines for it.

PAT PORTER  
Is it trial and error until you find the one that suits you?

STEPH CARR  
I think it depends who you have that will do the medication triage. They sort of decide what they want to try you on. But they initially start you off on two different types. So you try one first. If it doesn't work, then you go on to the other.

PAT PORTER  
And you feel it's grounding you, for want of a nicer compliment?

STEPH CARR  
Yeah, it sounds really cliche, like it's completely changed my life. But it is pretty amazing stuff.

PAT PORTER  
Good.

STEPH CARR  
And I guess some people take it every day. I personally don't. Because it's, you know, with antidepressants they build up in your system. With, it's called Concerta, it's a slow release medication. You don't have to take it everyday, it doesn't stay in your system for longer than the 12 hour period. So I don't need to take it if I'm just at home. Or if I'm at work, I might take it to help me function better. Some people take it every day.

PAT PORTER  
That's useful to know and useful for other people that are maybe at this crossroads in their lives. And some people are afraid of taking medication, or they're anti medication, like I'm sick of tablets. So it's nice to know it's in your system for 12 hours and then you could go for five days, not have it. So you can use it ad hoc, but it's controlled by you and your choices of when you need it.

STEPH CARR  
Yeah. You can do it that way. Yeah. And different strengths as well. So my doctor decided that I could have a lower strength and a higher strength. So some days, I'll just take the lower and if I need the high strength, and, but it has got a bad reputation, because everybody just assumes it's, you know, like Ritalin?

PAT PORTER  
Yes.

STEPH CARR  
And it's similar sort of chemical compound. But obviously, if it's slow release, you're not taking tablets throughout the day. Whereas I think with Ritalin, you've got to take it two or three times a day, I think, and I couldn't cope with that. Because I'd forget to take it! Or take two by accident or something stupid.

PAT PORTER  
Yeah. Or, two days have passed, oh I forgot. Yeah, story, my life.

STEPH CARR  
But I think it's progressed quite well, the medication for ADHD. There's a lot of different options. And different types.

PAT PORTER  
I'm thrilled for you. I could run across the room and give you a hug. I'm so happy that you've got to that place in your life at long last. You've been seen, you've been heard. Now do it for my kid, sort of thing.

STEPH CARR  
I did ask them if they could transfer the diagnosis. I said, is it possible before I go ahead with this assessment, can I give it to my son? And obviously they can't do that, because it's a different system. But...

PAT PORTER  
I'm gonna ask you to come back, because we've talked about an awful lot today. And we've just skirted over it. And I would love you to come back and we'll have another session, a wee bit more in depth for other listeners. I want to round it off by asking you the label of the actual diagnosis. Do you tell people? Do you tell it in your workplace? Do you hide it? Are you careful? How's that affected you? How have you embraced it? Or, I know and you've protected yourself. Because of past history and how people treat people? How have you gone forward with things

STEPH CARR  
I think I've been pretty open about my diagnosis. And I shared it with my, with my parents. And my mum just sort of said, "Oh, well, I knew that all along. You never slept, you were never still as a kid." But yeah, I think I'm fairly open with people that I trust and people that I work with, because obviously if you're open about it, you can access different support. So you've got your Access to Work support, which I wouldn't be able to work without that. That's been really good. That's for a different time. But I think you've got to be careful that you don't sort of use it to define yourself as well. So it doesn't become like your label. Because I see it as just a personality trait. It doesn't define who I am. And I can't use it as an excuse if I forget somebody's birthday. I can't be like, oh, I've got ADHD so sorry! It is handy sometimes but yeah, I think you've got to be careful in that, in that respect, because it sort of dilutes the whole aspect of of having it and getting that diagnosis.

PAT PORTER  
That's a lovely attitude actually, it's very measured, it's controlled by you. Because nothing's changed, you're still Steph, all the way through to this, sitting in this chair today. And having that diagnosis actually doesn't change you. You're still the same. So choosing how you use it to help you continue in jobs and other things is the right way. But you use the word trust. Yeah, it has to be a trusted source. But you've done something massively brave. You have told everybody today. Thank you. Thank you very much. And thank you for coming along.

STEPH CARR  
I was so anxious about this. And look, I've not even used my comfort notes, as we called them. My essay.

PAT PORTER  
I've had faith in you. I knew, I've met you one or two times before, and I knew you'd be absolutely fine. But again, this is all the traits of anxiety, ADHD, and something that's unknown. It's scary. It's very scary, and it's real. And that can have a massive adrenaline fight and flight and fear physically on a person's daily life. So I think we have two or three more episodes in the bank.

STEPH CARR  
Yes, that'd be good.

PAT PORTER  
Thank you Steph, it's been wonderful talking to you today. Much appreciated.

STEPH CARR  
Thank you.