Episode #20: Mike DeGeorge

Mike DeGeorge is the Head Men's Basketball Coach at Cal Poly.  He has had an amazing career as he has built programs at the NCAA D3 and D2 levels at Eureka College, Cornell College, Rhodes College and Colorado Mesa University where he most recently led the Mavericks to four NCAA D2 National Tournaments that culminated in two Sweet 16 appearances.  In the Spring of 2024, he was named as the new Head Coach at Cal Poly where he takes the reigns of his first NCAA Division I program playing in the Big West Conference.

Learn more about Mike DeGeorge here:   https://gopoly.com/staff-directory/mike-degeorge/530

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Welcome back to the significant coaching podcast. I'm coach Matt Rogers. And boy, do I have a great guest for you today? coach Mike did George, at Cal poly. we, we had a great conversation. I learned a lot as you'll hear in the episode. Mike, and I kind of traveled in parallel lines these last 25 years. we were in very similar areas in the same conferences at different times. And, and I was really excited to get his thoughts and opinion on his career and every place he's been, Give you a little background on coach to George. He's got a career record of 320 wins and 291 career losses. And, and most of those loss is a good. Percentage of those losses was really early in his career because he said seven 20 wins seasons in the last about 15 years. He's coached at your Rica college. Cornell college Rhodes college. And most recently he was at the Colorado Mesa university, Ray advanced his team four times to the NCAA national tournament, including two sweet 16 appearances. What a great run he's had. this past spring, he was named the new head men's basketball coach. At Cal poly, where he takes over his first division one program in the big west conference. Really excited, to see a D three guy, a career D three guy play D. coach D three for a long, long time. Getting the opportunity to coach at the highest level. I love and you'll hear this, how much he integrates his staff and players into the ownership and leadership of the program. He uses analytics and film as prep and direction tools, as well as any college coach I've spoken to. He is without a doubt, a winner in every sense of the word. And a true. And proven program builder. So without further ado, here's coach Mike, the Jordan. Coach to George. So great to see you. I feel like we've been running in parallel lines for 20 years. So how's this transition to Cal Poly going? It's gone well, you know, it's a lot. My wife and I have four kids and two dogs. And so getting the family adjusted and moved and and then also, you know, just obviously putting a staff together and division one is different than division two and three. That And you know, so I happened to hire five coaches and then You know, we had to fill eight scholarship spots and we had to work with all the guys that were on the team last year just to see if it was a good fit for them moving forward to come back. And so, you know, there were just a lot of moving parts personally and professionally, and we've been able to get those in place. We're here, we have a full roster, we have a full staff. And so you know, we're looking forward to getting going. That's an impressive two months. Just to just in that statement there. I've been telling people, I feel like I'm sledding uphill, but when you look back over a week or two weeks, you are getting stuff done, but you know, not as fast as you want it to be. So I mean, to hire five coaches and get eight kids, eight kids on the roster is pretty impressive. Talk to me about I don't know how much you use the portal at Mesa, but. How, how big of an impact is it for you having the portal? Is it something you want to use? Is it something you will use? Yeah, I think if you're, if you're not embracing where the game's at, you don't have to like everything about what's happening, but if you're not racing it and, and trying to navigate all of the things that are out there. I think you're making a mistake and you've fallen behind. So I think with the portal you know, I think there's, we did use it at Mesa. Obviously we're going to look at every player that to see if there are potential fit. You know, I do think there are obviously some downsides to the portal, but I think student athletes rights are really important and I think they should have the right to move schools and make money off of their name, image, and likeness. So I think all that's good. We obviously need some sort of. regulation of both because they're out of control. But you know, I do think it's been good for for us to have another avenue to find kids. And, you know, trying to figure out the best way to do that at each school is different. Cal Poly has some pretty significant transfer expectations. They can make it a little more challenging for us to find a good fit, but we were able to find a few off of that, and then we were able to get a group of our guys from Mesa to grad transfer in. Nice. So we're, we're looking forward to the group we put together, but it definitely has some hurdles. Talk a little bit about that about what Cal Poly is expecting out of transfers. I don't think people understand. I think they think, well, the university is just allowing any kid to come in. What, what are some of the things that you're looking for in a recruit? And what's, what are some of the things the school is expecting? So the school, we're a unique institution because we're very focused on your major. So when you apply to school here, you apply for a particular major, you don't apply for general admission. So if you're applying for a major as a transfer, you have to have certain classes that you need to have completed. And they basically have a magic four that you have to have. And a lot of it for a lot of kids, maybe they're missing a math class. So in order to, be a transfer at Cal Poly and you don't have that math class, you're going to have to take that before you come in there. They'll make you take that before you come in. And so for a kid who's going on the portal, just shopping the best deal, we don't have NIL money and we have requirements to get in. You know, the kid's got to be pretty committed to being at a great place like Bali in order to to do there. So we're going to have more success recruiting the traditional four year kid. That wants to be at a top 30 school academically wants to be it's it's go eight miles from the beach on a beautiful campus and a great town. Now, if that's what you're looking for, we're going to be able to find plenty of kids who want that out there. But the kid that's going on the portal looking for a better deal. We're not yet. So so, you know, we were able to get some kids based off relationships. And that we've had. And, and so that was great. And I think we put that together, but I think the four year model is probably going to be where we need to do the bulk of our recruiting. What are you looking for then? Because I'm interested to know what is that percentage of kids that are in the portal right now that when you say we don't have that NIL money, what's the percentage of kids going to say? I don't care. I want to play. I want to get a degree. I want to play. If there's money to be made, I'll make it afterwards. Yeah, I think everybody's different. So you don't really know unless you go through a conversation with the kid, but it becomes pretty apparent early on, you know, kind of what their objectives are. And I do think a lot of kids just see it as sort of free agency is that I had a good year. I can elevate and this is an opportunity for to make money playing basketball. I'm going to see what's out there for me. And I don't think we're going to be a good fit for those kids. They're not going to value the academic experience. You know, one of our young men that we were able to get in, had a great freshman year, you know, he didn't have a great connection at the school that he was at. And so he really just loved our playing style. He, he was a 4. 0 student. He really liked the idea of being in an elite academic school. And you know, so it just wasn't a fit and he turned down a bunch of money to come here. Cause that's what the experience he wanted to have. That's great. I, you know, you've had such an impressive career coach, you know, everywhere you've gone, you've kind of taken over a program that was struggling and you've built it back up to something substantial. You've, you've advanced your teams to national tournaments. You've been highly competitive. Where does, where does that come from? Where does that. Where does that ability, that drive, that motivation, where does that come from for you to, to take over a program very much like you're doing now and say, I'm, I'm going to, we're going to turn this into something special. Yeah, I mean, I guess part of it is, I think, you know, Seneca said expectations are the thief of joy. And I think your goal, they're like creating the expectations. Honestly, it's a much more fun process than trying to live up to expectations, if I'm being completely honest. And so, you know, we had a great six year run it at Mesa and I had no interest in leaving. I wasn't like I was out there looking, they came to me and and and Asked if I was interested in the job actually after I accepted the job. They came back to me and said We actually need you to apply for the job. We can't pay a processor hire without an application So I never apply for the job even so, you know, I wasn't looking for this, but I would say that You know part of the excitement for me is doing something Maybe people haven't done before or I love culture and I love building culture And I think once you have your culture established you always have to work on it But it's not the same as like bringing it in and installing it and finding the pieces that fit it. And that process of building is, it's always been intriguing to me, you know back even as an assistant coach, when I was working for John Darp, who retired at Hillsdale a year ago when we were at Lawrence university, you know, that was kind of my first significant coaching role. And, and we had a major rebuild there and had a lot of success. And so. You know, from the very beginning of my coaching career, that's kind of what I've been a part of. And I guess you get a comfortable with what you're used to doing. It's so funny. I just talked to Brad Hoyt. I don't know if you ran across Brad. Brad was the head coach at John Wood Community College and just took the job at Quincy University. And he, you know, that's a, that's a substantial jump too, in terms of How you go about your business. Brad was athletic director, dean of students and head basketball coach. Now he's going to a place where he's just basketball coach. And I know for you, you wore a lot of hats at the schools you were at. What's that transition look like for you from going to where you were at a Rhodes to a Mesa now to a Cal Poly, are you feeling like you've got more support and you're able to do more as a basketball coach? Yeah, for sure. I mean, like when you're in Division three, about half your time at least is spent recruiting. You know, and then, you know, on top of that, then you'll have some secondary duties to take you away from your team. And then, you know, the incidentally restricts so that, you know, part of the Division three experiences that. They're well balanced. So out of season, you don't have as much contact with your players. So you do have more time, but I would say if half my time was spent on basketball in division three, you know, at Mesa, it was probably 80 percent was spent on basketball at least, and, you know my guess is in division one, that number for me as a head coach will probably go down a little bit, you know, there's going to be more community relations, fundraising. I do think division one recruiting is going to be harder than division two. And there's going to be more time involvement with that. And so, you know, I do think that each place you have to kind of figure out that balance and you're going to have different roles and, you know, I put together a great staff and I'm going to want to let them coach. So they're going to all have significant roles in terms of coaching. And so, you know, I do think each role I've had has been different. And, you know, one of the things you have to do is you can't just say, this is how we do things. You have to adapt to each institution say how how do we need to be successful here? And so yeah, we've continued to adapt and grow but I actually like this role more of like the ceo of the program rather than Being the one man shop. I think i'm probably better in this role in terms of providing some direction and letting guys go, have meaningful responsibilities and and so I do think that this role is a good fit for me and I'm excited about it. Yeah, you're, you're good. You're going to be great at it. Talk a little bit about the importance of your staff. Cause we talked about before we came on, you've, you've brought on five assistants and you know, when we were coaching division three, If we had a 8, 000 stipend for somebody we can pull off the street that, you know, maybe could live with their parents or a kid that just got done playing with us, we were blessed if that person was competent. What's it like now to have full time positions where you can actually take care of an assistant coach and they can have a life and a home and a family? How does that affect you and, and what you're trying to do with culture? Yeah, that's a pretty cool part of the job. And honestly, it was one of the most appealing aspects for me. And so, you know, when I started my first head coaching job at Eureka college, 60 percent of my contract was teaching. And my only assistant was a thousand dollars. And so, you know, I spent four years there and then I go to Cornell and I spent five years there. So after the first three years, I got a full time assistant. And I literally had no idea how to use them. So used to having doing everything myself. I just couldn't give up any responsibility to just let them have it. And so, you know, it is one of the ways I've grown as a professional is that you got to decide. What is it that's most important to you that you need to do? And also you got to recognize what other people's strengths are and maybe what your weaknesses are and just trust people to do certain things. And so I've been very fortunate that we've been able to put a staff together that's very like minded. They compliment each other. So it's much like putting together to me and what I was like is like, just how I put a basketball team together. I don't want five guys to do the same thing, be able to fill different roles. And so I think we put a group together that is very different and they compliment each other, but they're all extremely high character people who fit our culture really well. That's great. What's it like to know that you have the money to go get that guy? That's already been a great recruiter at the level you're at. Somebody that really understands film breakdown. Somebody that really understands academics and player development. What is that like to have the kind of the resources to go find people with that experience and ability? Yeah. So you know, as we were starting to put a staff together, one of my assistants, name is Ron Dubois, and he actually coached in the NBA. And he's you know, and so he was helping me kind of put some people together. He is a California guy and you know, he's trying to get me to recruit this Jesse Pruitt from Stanford. I'm like, really? We're gonna get Stanford since coach at basketball for 16 years. And, you know, the Stanford staff got let go and, you know, we were able to get in touch with them and, and build a relationship together. And it seemed just like a mutual fit. You know, we're, and it's pretty cool that you can, that you can attract somebody you know, with 16 years of division one, hedge coaching experience last eight at Stanford and meaningful roles there. And he really understands division one recruiting. And, and you know, we were doing visits this spring and I, you know, I'm like, I used to like a D two D three budget. Really? We're going to spend this much on the visit. He's like, yeah, that's my whole career. That's my whole season. We've spent more money on the first official visit that I think I spent my first year of recruiting. Oh, that's great. That's great. What, what are you finding as you're recruiting now? And, and I, and I was, I'm assuming at Mesa, you were going after some high level kids that were definitely D1 kids or D1 transfers. What are you finding that you've had to change your mindset about what you're looking for? Has there been a change? Yeah, I think that, you know, when you have a new job and you go into a new league, if it's a different level or even the same level, there are certain things you have to learn about that conference. And I think you really don't, you're guessing, let's be honest, you're guessing because film, it's a little bit, you've watched a lot of film and you have an idea, but you kind of don't feel really comfortable until you get about halfway through the conference season. You're like, all right, I got this league. I got it. See where we're at, you know, we get it and we were, you know, so part of it is you just, you don't know as much as the coaches have been in the league a while, and that is one of the differences, but. The other thing is, is that you're bringing new perspective to and they don't know everything that you've been through and that you've learned from your experience. And so, yes, you're in a little bit of disadvantage in some ways, but there's also an advantage there as well. And we're very analytically driven and we've really embraced the modern game. And so what hasn't changed is that we're going to play positionless. We're going to really get pieces that compliment each other. You know, we're going to, we're really going to embrace you know, just like we did last year, last year, we led the nation and two point field goal percentage, but we shot the least amount of twos in the country. Yeah. And so we, you know and we ended up the top effective field goal percentage team in the country, even though we were an average three point shooting team and shot the least amount of twos. So but we really played fast and, you know, got the ball ahead. And if the defense rotates for spraying it out for three, you know, And we're really just trying to spread the floor with versatile pieces. And so one of the things we decided to do is we're just not going to, we don't have a center on our roster. And so we just decided that, you know, we couldn't get a player at that size of the ability that we wanted. And so one of the. check decisions we made was we're just going to play smaller and we're going to force them to guard us out on the perimeter and see who wins out. We found like in the big west last year you know, most teams kept a true center on the floor, most of the game and over for 40 minutes, they contributed about six points a game. So we're like, Hey, let's just put a sky out there. They can play. I think he's going to be able to out contribute in the game than that. And so, you know, we're rolling the dice a little bit with that, but it's part of the circumstance we're going into, but we really would love to just have all six, seven guys to do a little bit of everything and throw them out there and let's see what we can do. And we've had a lot of success at Mesa. I love that mindset. What do you do? What do you do defensively? What's your mindset defensively with that then? So, in general, if you just start at the base of analytics, what we've decided is the number one analytical piece that you have to build both your offense and defense around is, is that when the ball gets to the paint, And teams either finish or spray it out for a three. Those are the highest percentage shots in basketball. So, you know, like that inside out three, we've tracked this for the last 15 years. And if you shoot an inside out three, you shoot it at almost a 50 percent clip. And if you're shooting a three that hasn't gotten to the pain, kicked out, most teams shoot under 30%. I mean, it is a dramatic. Mind blowing every year we do it. And I'm like, is it really going to be that dramatic again? And then it, it always is. And so it, so when you think about that and you think about finishing at the rim and then, you know you know, the, one of the things that has been a big number in the NBA for a long time, that still blows my mind is that, you know, uncontested shots in the mid range. In the NBA, they shoot at 0.86 points per possession, which is 43%. Which really, if you think about it, if you're gonna shoot a three at 35% and you shoot a mid-range shot at 43%, that's probably about right. I mean, it's a still jump shot. And in some ways the three point shot's easier. 'cause the line is that. Sort of, you know where you are on the floor better when you're shooting at three, you practice that exact distance. Distance all the time. Yeah, all the time. Yeah. And, but you know, our goal defensively is to hold teams to 0.9 points per possession. And so if you're shooting uncontested mid-range at 0.86, the best players in the world are doing that. That's probably not a shot we should be shooting and we should be trying to build our defense. around giving up as much as possible. And so we are a PAC line team. We don't want teams getting to the paint, but then we've been really creative with how we've adapted it so that we're also not giving up threes because we really are working to try to not give up three. So we kind of had this hybrid system. That that driving force of analytics have kind of forced us to adapt our defense to the modern game. And then the same thing offensively, you know, you just, the best way to get the ball to the paint is to just beat the other team down the floor. So we work very hard in transition. We're very committed. 47 percent of our shots came in the first 10 seconds last year. And so we're just trying to get there and we're trying to keep teams from getting to that paint. And that's pretty much every decision we make is rooted in the, in that basic concept. I love it. I love playing basketball that way. I love watching basketball that way. What are you doing to get the ball up the floor? Do you have a guy that's designated on made baskets, getting the ball up the floor? Do you have, are, are, are your guys looking for a point guard? Cause I know you're positionless. Is it whoever gets it goes? Yeah. Yeah, so we have no rules on that other than just getting the ball out as quickly as possible. And we forced them to what we call EPA early pass ahead. So anybody who's open, who's ahead of you, you are moving the ball to that next guy by the pass. And so it doesn't matter if it's up the sideline, up the middle, people are telling me we're running a sideline break because we do advance the ball a lot, but we're not running a sideline break. We're just getting the ball out. We're getting it ahead. And we put clocks on them and we cause it, it's a turnover. If they can't get over half court in three seconds or whatever. And, and so we're just really constantly building that pace. And we found that if we just play three trips a lot, that, you know, they have to, once they get a stop or a score or a stop, then we're getting out and running. And then the other team's running back and just trying to build it in three trips, it's been a really effective way to just try to get us getting the ball out, get it ahead and just kind of let it happen organically. Yeah. And then just have great spacing is the main thing. So we really just want the first two guys out getting wide sign, light magnets, getting deep in those corners. And then, you know, outside of that, you're just basically either playing five out four out one in with a really not a guy in, we have a guy kind of on the move and we're really just trying to play with tremendous pace. up the floor and then tremendous ball movement with cutting and passing and then only getting in ball screens as needed. And so just the pace of the ball movement and the flow of what we do is creates most of our shots. All right, so I'm gonna, I want to continue with this. You and I, if we go to 10 high school games in November together, We're going to probably see nine teams that are going to be point guard centric, walking the ball up the floor, calling a play, calling a set. And then we're going to, you don't have any hair left. I'm about to lose all mine. How do we, how do we find that kid? That's been taught how to get the ball up the floor and get the ball out of their hands. and they understand that it, I hardly see it at al I would say the interesti we had similar concerns a embrace this and just did for the guys because it's would prefer to play. Prob the two best non Mesa rec You know, the two transfers we got both just felt a little bit that they were confined in their roles at their previous schools and it didn't really fit their school skill set and they just love the fact that they would get to do everything on a basketball floor and there wouldn't be that sort of restriction. They just want to be able to bring the ball before move it and. You know, they're not worried about scoring. They're just want to participate in all aspects of the game. And and so it really comes really natural to guys. The thing that's the hardest is that it drives us crazy. And we actually had a group of our guys were giving us a hard time last year and they were like, coach, you know, you ruined the you ruined basketball for us. We can't turn on a game now. And watch it. 'cause every guy just catches it and dribbles like, yeah, yeah. Like what? There's they just hold the ball. Yeah. Everybody just wants to hold it and have it and dribble it and like, I want my turn with it. Okay. You hold it for a while, you know, and then, and you know, just breaking them of that habit of just catching, holding, dribbling. Yep. Use the dribble to go somewhere, shoot it or move it to the next guy. And, and just creating that pace and that mindset. Was the hardest thing, but just getting guys to just naturally flow and move and pass it ahead and play fast, all that comes really natural to 'em. It's just, it's just so funny, all the things you've talked about from the analytics side. We've always known that we've always known that you get the ball inside, you drive and you kick, you get the ball in the post and you play inside out. You're going to score easier. You're going to make it harder on the defense. He swings opposite side of the floor. You're going to make the defense shift. You move the ball quickly. Why are all those concepts? Why did those get lost? What happened? That's a good question. I do think part of it is that, and it still happens to me. I mean, we've been trying to play positionless for the whole time I've been at Mesa pretty much after maybe our first year, but still you go back and you're like, is that kid a center? Or is he a power forward? Is that kid a two or a three? Like your mind just kind of goes there. And so if our mind goes there, we're obviously teaching guys to fill certain roles when we're communicating in practice, whether it's conscious or unconscious. And so just freeing them up and just being like, listen, we got no positions. You just go be a basketball player. But the one rule is, is you just got to make quick decisions. You got to make 0. 5 decisions. You can't be holding the ball. And I do think just for whatever reason, You know, there's a guy in the low post. There's nowhere for me to drive it. I catch the ball. I'm not quite sure what to do with it. I'll hold it. I'll look around. I'll dribble. Okay, I got nothing. I guess I'll move it to the next guy. Whereas when you watch kids play pickup, they don't do that, you know? Like the flow and the pace is there. It's really the structure that that leads, I think, to that sort of paralysis by analysis in some ways for the players on the floor. They don't see the space. They don't see the angles. They aren't exactly sure what they're supposed to do. We're trying to run this play, you know, like, I think all of those become obstacles to the freedom of that flowing ball movement. I mean, I'm really, I'm really excited to watch your team play this year. I'm going to play a little devil's advocate because I'm excited. I'd be doing the same thing you're doing. Talk to me about rebounding when you've got. A bunch of kids that are six three to 6, 7, 6 8 on the floor. What is your focus on offensive rebounding and defensive rebound? Because I'm assuming offensive rebounds gotta be a huge part of what you wanna do in getting extra possessions as well. Yes. So we are, you know, that'll be the big question because we're gonna be at a pretty big size disadvantage, whereas at Mesa. We had bigs playing guards, but they were, you know, our center was still 69, you know, and he too, he was, you know, he was the best defensive rebounder in the league. And so even though he could bring the ball up to four, that's why he's a color. I don't know. So, but you know, that. That will be one of the challenges for us is that it's going to take a real gang mentality effort in terms of the defensive glass. And we're going to have to be very committed to that. Now, I do think that if you're not letting people in the paint and you're forcing up shots where they really aren't playing with an advantage, you're in position to box out. And if you're a good box out team, typically you're going to be able to be good on the defensive glass. So that's that in on the offensive end, we are, we send forward to the glass and look up. You know, I just did this whole MBA thing where we use the MBA a lot to kind of get analytical information because they have spectrum, whatever that spectrum nine thing is, they have all this data that we don't have access to. And so like, we've really tried to, we've had, you know, some connections here where we've been able to get like, what is that data telling you? And then we're able to like, okay, does it fit at our level? And tried out over the last 15 years we've been able to do a lot of of that kind of thing. And so that's great. I just didn't understand or believe why NBA teams don't offensive rebound and so, you know, ultimately what I decided was it's just 82 games of the physical punishment of going outta the glass and then sprinting back. It was just too much to ask of the guys. Yeah. And then by the time they get to the playoffs, they. Develop these habits where they just don't are used to not going because i'm going to the offensive glass is a very difficult skill To rep and get guys, consistently doing but we send four to the glass We send the shooter on all threes any three pointer everybody's going but the shooter the shooter rotates back Everybody else goes hard. And we do give up, you know, I would say last year we gave up somewhere, probably five to seven you know, runouts where the shooter didn't get back well enough and they, the defense got the rebound and they threw it ahead and got an easy bucket on us. But we do offensive rebound 40 percent of our missed threes. So you know, so we're getting, the other thing that that does is it frees up our shooters, because we're constantly like, you know, we're You have to let it fly like, you know You have to be in this mentality where you're an elite shooter. You're open. You have to let it fly so we have a group of guys that are in that category and we're like If you miss the shot, it's okay. Cause we're going to, we're, we're, we're going to offensive rebound two out of every five misses anyways. So just shoot it and we'll go get it, you know, and and so, you know, and then we have some guys that maybe aren't elite shooters that we only want them shooting those direct inside out threes, cause even kind of below average shooters tend to shoot that at like a 35 percent clip. And so, you know, between those two things, you know, we've, we're shooting a lot of threes and we're getting a lot of offensive rebounds on our misses. And if I didn't, if I didn't know better, it sounded like you, you'd ran across David Arsenault at some point in your career. Yeah. That is one of the things that we, you know, in the last year, we finally were like, you know, we've been trying to figure out how to send forward to the glass and the shooter never goes, you know, the shooter watches his shot. He never goes to the glass. He never gets any offensive rebounds. And so finally, I was like, let's just do the Grinnell thing and just send everybody else and just force that shooter to rotate back. I love it. They're still not great at rotating back, but it's shocking how infrequently we get hurt because if they're not boxing us out and they're leaking out, you know, we're going to get the offensive rebound, which quite frankly happens way more than they get an advantage on us. So pretty much every team in our league last year was so worried about our offensive rebounding. They weren't trying to run against us and take advantage of the fact that we're so aggressively going to the glass. I love it. What advice would you give to a high school coach who doesn't have a lot of time, a D3 coach, junior college coach, what advice would you give them about what you've learned about analytics? You know, because you said we wouldn't talk to people because we couldn't get the software. We wouldn't talk to people. We talked to NBA guys. What advice would you give these small school high school guys about how to use analytics? Yeah, I think the biggest thing about analytics is that we get these numbers and we're like, Oh, threes are worth more than twos. But what does that mean? You know what I mean? Like, you know, and so I think what you have to do is you have to have some overriding principles of proven analytics. And so for us, it doesn't mean it has to be this way for everyone. For us, we became the paint and like when the ball got to the paint, our numbers exploded if we could get it there and not turn it over, which, by the way, we do turn it over a lot. We are a turnover team, and that is one of the issues that we have. We have to be okay with turning the ball over a little bit more because we're so aggressively trying to get the ball to the paint. And so, you know, once that became our overriding principle, we fully embraced that analytic. Thanks. We weren't bouncing all over the place with all these different analytical measurements. You know, somebody was telling me about a division one coach who tracks every possession of every practice. And then at the end of each segment, they tell the team what you were at point, you know, 1. 2 and you guys are at 1. 1. Well, we know what the score was. It's not that that's not any valuable information. It's the root of what it is you're trying to do that leads to those numbers that you really have to understand the outcome isn't what you're about it. You got to be process driven. And so you have to decide what are the analytical numbers that have true meaning to you. How can you build your system to take advantage of those? And then you have to trust it and run with it, knowing that over, you know, a quarter or a half or a portion of the season or even a year or two, it may not be work out exactly the way you want. But if you are process driven, you'll build it towards. Those outcomes that you want because you're following those analytical numbers that lead to that if you stick with it. And so I would say that's probably the number one thing that people don't understand how to utilize analytics. We have so much information. How do we digest it? How do we actually make it part of our system? I love it. It makes a lot of sense, too. Now, my question is, and this is where I struggle as a coach, and obviously you understand this as well as anybody. You talked about your team, you turn the ball over a lot. So what's, what, how do you balance that, getting your guys to be aggressive, saying we want that ball across half court in three seconds. We want to get to the paint. We want to take that open three if we're there. And you're turning the ball over 17, 18 times a game. How do you balance how you coach that? How you, how, how do you work to get those turnovers down when you want your guys to be so aggressive? Yeah, I have not figured that out. If I figured that out, we would not have turned it over. But what I will say is that, you know, it's a tightrope act because you don't want to make them tight and nervous. Want them to not be loose at the ball. And so, you know, our big thing is, is that we, so we do a couple of things and, you know, I think it helps. We haven't obviously solved the problem, but I think it helps. Part of the problem is us is that we want to play this way and it is a higher turnover offense. Now the analytical numbers at the end of the day work out for you. That's the better way to play than taking great care of the ball and not and, and not getting the same quality of shots. But so we do a couple of different things. We have areas on the floor. So we refer to kind of the charge circle in the pain area. Yeah. Of as the red zone. And when you're in the red zone, you play off two feet. You stop. So red is stop. Okay. When you go inside the three point line, you're in the yellow zone. It's like a yellow light. You should be playing slower. You don't know where the defense is rotating from. You've maybe broken the core of their defense, and now we're looking for an advantage. And so that's an area where we really want to probe it, keep your dribble alive, see the whole floor protected. Don't play super fast there and don't be playing off one foot there or in the red zone. And so, you know, from a stop to a probing action in the yellow zone, and then anything outside the arc is green. Let's get up and go and, you know, And we're playing really fast. We're having significant ball movement, 0. 5 decisions. Everything's got tremendous pace when the ball is outside the three point line. And so when we can build that mentality in and really playing off two feet deep in the paint, you know, slowing down when you're, when you've broken the core of the defense and then just sustaining your pace where the defense can't keep up with you. outside the arc has been a pretty good formula for us, but it's, you know, and I think when we do that, well, our turnovers go down significantly, but that's easier said than done. It's so smart too, because you're not stopping playing going, Jimmy, you got to take care of the ball there. You're saying, Jimmy, you're using the Socratic method. You're going, Jimmy, what zone were you in? Yeah. Jimmy goes, I was in red zone. What, how many feet did you go off of? I went off of one foot. Did you play faster? Did you slow down? So I love that from a coaching standpoint and what you're able to do to even control yourself and how you want to teach you, you find that. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And it's it's, and then the player is so much more responsive because it's not like we're putting it on them. Like if you just yell at Jimmy for turning it over. It's all on jimmy to figure it out Whereas we've given jimmy the process we want him to follow and then I am the number one guy And I do think if you're going to build a culture of success You got to be secure enough to be able to take responsibility for what's going on in their program. So there are players here for me that something was my fault and I apologize to them for my mistakes all the time. Part of it is that you want to create this environment where you are. That's an acceptable practice where we're all in this together. None of us are perfect. Nobody's blaming each other, but we're all taking responsibility for For what's happening. And I think the way you describe that exact does that exactly, instead of putting the onus on, on him to figure it out, you're giving him the process. You're just asking him to execute it. I love that coach. Love it. Love it. Love it. I may ask you to, I may come out and if you let me come out and watch some practices this year, it's, it just sounds like so much fun to be a part of. It sounds like you can do so much in your practices with that mindset. Yeah, it's we do have fun and you know, I, I would say early in my career, when I was first a head coach, I used to have this nightmare where I would wake up or I would be asleep and I would be screaming at everyone and no one would be paying any attention to me. And no matter how much I screamed, it's like they couldn't hear me. And I've had those nightmares, the sweats, you know? Yes. You know, and You know, I don't have that anymore and I think the reason why is you've given up a little bit of control and you've just tried to find a way to Connect to communicate with people on another level And it's just a way more effective way, not only for us to get the outcome we want, but to have better relationships and also be in a better place where you're not having those kinds of dreams. Absolutely. And having a full time staff is gotta be the biggest advantage to getting there for you. And that's really what I want to know. How are you using your staff differently? Now than you did 15 years ago. Yeah, very differently. And so just as an example my full time assistant at Carta Mesa, who's come with us here and we'll run our offense. Kyle Bojay is just really he is incredible. mind. And so a lot of the things we've talked about offensively, yes, together, we all worked on and there are other coaches involved. Ronda balling mentioned before was a big part of it to work on the analytics of what it was we wanted to be about. But actually a lot of the drills and putting the pieces together of our offense. Kyle is the one has been the architect of that and has really taken what we've done offensively to another level. So the best coaching decision I've made is just to get the hell out of the way. Let him be a basketball coach. Let him share his understanding of What he's worked at and he's worked incredibly hard as a basketball coach. And he deserves to have that significant role and voice within our program to, to be able to communicate and teach the way that he sees best. And so, you know, part of it is just trying to make sure people understand who we are, what we're going to be about keeping that sort of. You know over all umbrella view of things in place and then getting out of the way and freeing up your coaches to be able to, to coach. And so the other pieces that I would say that, you know, particularly for the new guys, they've heard my voice less than anyone else's voice. So I love that. That's so empowering. Yeah, it is. And I think it also goes back to the days of Division three, where you were the only voice. And by the way, guys are like, Oh, my gosh, how much more this guy do I have to listen to, you know, you do get to be more impactful. Not only are you better rested and more energized to make it through the season, because you have more help, and you can pick your moments. But for them, you can pick those moments that are meaningful. And that have the most impact for your team, rather than having to be that do everything guy. And so for me, that's been really, really beneficial in my own personal growth. That's fantastic. I love hearing that coach. And it's really inspiring to me because I went back and coach high school last year and it burned me out because I didn't, I didn't have any assistant coaches until October 15th. I couldn't find anybody because nobody would take 1, 000 for a season. And I ended up having to just hire some guys that didn't have a lot of experience. And I found myself doing everything. And by mid year, I was sick, literally sick. And I was tired and my brain was dead. And I was a different human being. I was a zombie. So I love the fact that you're, you've gotten to that point where you've got a team around you, that they can run the drills. They can be the voice. They can also be the disciplinarian. And then you can be that guy that you can pull a kid aside in the middle of a drill and say, Hey, we need to talk about this. All right. Hey, you're doing a really good job. I want you to work on this. And you can really be the master teacher without being the director of the practice. Yes, exactly. Am I on track there? Yeah, that's 100%. Yep. Coach, I've in the last 10 years since I really got out of college coaching, I've kind of devoted my life to college recruiting. I've been helping kids get to college and I wrote a book on college recruiting. So my last couple questions for you is really, if I put you on a stage in front of 300 families with prospective athletes, it's really just to get your advice to those kids and those parents. What advice would you give to a kid? Who wants to play at your level? He's 15 years old. He's got some talent. He's got decent grades, got a great attitude. What, what advice would you give them in terms of how to, how to manage their recruitment to get the attention of a Mike DeGeorge? Yeah. I think that in a lot of ways, we look at this process entirely backwards. And so you know, I went to an AAU event in May. Okay. They charged us $700 to get in the door. They charged $17 for parking. They charged families, you know, just to come watch their kids play they nowhere where to even sit, $65 to get in the door. So, and you know, I was walking in with a, a, a mom next to a mom, you know, I just was walking in and she was walking next to me and, and she saw, you know, my what shirt I was wearing and she just said, Hey, you know, take a look at my son, we'd love to have him, you know, get division one scholarship or something. You know, I said for the price or charge to get in, everybody should get a scholarship, you know, and you know, and that's true. I mean, a lot of families are chasing this one objective or goal that they've set up or their son has been like, Hey, I've decided I want to be a division one basketball player. Mom and dad helped me do that. And mom and dad's like, Hey, we want you to be passionate about. You know be able to pursue your passions. We'll figure out how to make this happen And then they get so invested in trying to make that happen. They've used so many resources that it just becomes this thing where they're You know, I had a I had a parent tell me once this was maybe, you know a long time ago 20 years ago You know, a kid that was trying to pursue the division one thing. And I was trying to get him to come to a division three, you know, school. And the dad was like, you know, two years ago, if we'd known how this played out, we would have spent our money very differently, but we spent so much on AAU basketball the last two years. We don't have any money left to pay for a division three school, you know? And I do think that kind of thing is happening. So rather than making it about. Being outcome driven and making it about getting a division one scholarship just make it about helping little jimmy be the best version of himself he can be and whatever that is and You know just help him get better and is playing in l. a At a at an aau event going to help him get better more than just going to an open gym with his high school, I mean, what are you, you know, it could be there could be beat your strategic about it He does need to be seen but he also needs to get better and he also needs to have a high school experience I do think that you know, if a kid's got a 4. 0 he's way more likely to get something than if he's got a 2. 5 and so I think that if you just look at the whole person And you just try to help them improve and find their own pathway. You know, I can tell you, obviously my time at division one has been very limited here, but I haven't coached a game yet, but you know, the difference in experience, isn't that dramatic and most of the levels I'm obviously not at Kansas, but you know, just let the kid have a good experience and find a pathway forward to them. And I will tell you that I had great kids and great players in division three. I had great kids and great players in division two, and you know, I'm sure the same will happen here. And they all had good experiences and they all look back and really what they remember most is the relationship with their teammates and coaches and the battles they went through. And that ultimately what it was about. It wasn't about the level. And so I would not, I would advise families not to get caught up on the level. Find the right fit just be process driven. Don't be outcome driven So many kids label division one as something that they have to have and then they miss so many other Meaningful opportunities in their life because of it 100 i love it and it's it's what I preach as well. What do you have systematically in place with your staff? If a kid sends you an email, files it up with a voicemail and says, coach, I'm really interested in your program. Here's my online resume. Here's my, all my film, my grades, my contact information, my schedule. How do you guys systematically react to that? So, okay. So number one is, yeah, we get about 30 of those a day. So I can't go in and watch the film of every kid who sends me stuff. So the best thing, if you really kind of, number one is they have to listen to the feedback that they're getting. You know, we have kids saying like, all I need is, is one opportunity. I've been to this event. I've been to that event. I've been that event and no one is interested in me. Well, I'm sorry. They're telling you something. Like. Yeah, a lack of feedback is feedback. If you're going to events showcases where you're being seen and people are not following up with you at the level you want, that means that you don't fit their needs. Now it could be that you're a good enough player and they just don't have a need. Like that's the other thing, you know, I mean, I've had this week, I've had like Seven texts about six four walk ons to our program. I'm like how many six four walk ons can I take? You know, I already have four. I don't need any more like, you know, like it's no offense to you I just don't have any more spots, you know, that's not a need of for our program and and so, you know, part of it is sometimes it's just not a need for the program, but if you're going to lots of events and you're not getting feedback from the level you want, it's probably an indication you're not that level. If, and then if I was advising, I would do what I did for my daughter. My daughter said, I want to play college lacrosse. She was an all state player versus during COVID. She wasn't getting seen. And so I said, okay. Here's what we're going to do. I'm going to pull these schools that you're a straight A student, schools that, you know, we're not going to pay you to go to a bad school academically. You're probably going to be division three because of the way this whole thing's played out. So here are 40 schools that play lacrosse, are strong enough academically, and we can afford to send you to. You go through that list of 40 schools and you decide which ones are of interest to you based on location, academic offerings, all that. So she came back to me with a list and then we went through that list. And then we decided to reach out to those coaches and gave specific reasons why we were interested in their school. And then instead of saying, I know I'm good enough to help your program. How would you know if you're good enough to help our program? Have you ever seen it as a play? I mean, I get that. Say that again, coach. You don't know, you have no idea what that coach wants from you. And so just ask, how can I. Get in front of you to give myself the best chance of of being able to to earn an opportunity And so what we've done at every place that i've been because I know families are in a tough spot And we want to provide them feedback. We have always offered prospect camps And and we take a lot of kids from our prospect camps. We get to work with the kid We get to tell them, you know stop in the red zone Slow down in the yellow zone, play fast in the green zone during our camp, and if they're coachable, they can do those things and they have the physical tools we need, you know, that's been a way better evaluation tool for us than seeing some kid play in an AAU event where everybody holds it and no one passes it. And so, you know, pursue those schools, have a budget, how are you going to manage visits, how, who, who can you get in touch with, what coaches don't respond, which ones do, you know, and then, and make a plan from there. So I would say rather than sending these blanket emails out to every school in the country, telling the coach. That you can play for them, you know, be strategic, be purposeful, and then find a pathway to try to get in front of that coach, ask what events they're going to be at, ask if they have prospect camps, you know, for, try to find a way to get in front of that coach. Mike, thank you so much for your time. This has been awesome. I'm really excited for me to see guys like you that have been doing it right for all these years. To get your opportunity to do it with resources and a staff. I am so excited for you. I'm so excited to watch you play. And I'm thankful I got to spend some time with you and get to know you. Well, thanks for having me on, man. I enjoyed it. Good luck this year. We'll be cheering for you. I appreciate it. Thanks, Mike. And there you have a great conversation with coach Mike did George from Cal poly, moving up from the division three rates or ranks to division two. Now up to division one and taken over a really great program and, and he's only gonna make it better. so I'm really excited about him. Hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. for those of you that have been following along, with, the S the podcast on soul thankful, we have a new website, you can find everything, you find all the old episodes. At, www coach Matt rogers.com. That's my new website. I post a blog every week. So you can find all the blog posts. If you're interested in you're a coach. You'd lead some direction on your program and developing your program, player development. If you're a parent or a student athlete and you're looking for help with recruiting, I I've built the website. I do the podcast. I write the blog for families. Like you. So check all those out@coachmattrogers.com and don't be afraid to send me a comment or email or call. If you're looking for serious help with your recruitment and serious direction. at coach Matt rogers.com, you can schedule a 30 minute free session with me. And we'll do a strategy session. We'll talk about your recruitment, where you're at. I'll probably be asking for film. So if you have film clips, whatever sport you play, I work with all sports. I know you're going to see a lot of basketball coaches. I was a basketball coach for a long time. but I've helped over 4,000 kids get to college. In about 34 different sports. So if you're looking for guidance, feel free to get on the website and schedule with me. I'd love to talk to you, and talk to your family. And see how I can help you. social media wise, you can find me everywhere. Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube. and my team is posting little clips of all the video podcasts. So, I normally only post the audio, but if you'd like to see a video clips of me talking to these great coaches across the country at every level, check out my social media so you can get kind of get little snapshots of what we talk about. Some highlights of, of what we take out of those podcasts, but thank you to everybody for contained to spend time with us. I hope you're getting a lot out of this. And, and I'm working hard to continue to bring you great coaches, to listen, to and learn from like Mike, George. what a great guy, and I'm really excited for the community at Cal poly to have him. running their program. So continue to be significant, have a great week. And I look forward to talking to you next week.