Episode #162: Paula Krueger

 🏀  Can You Love Your Team? Lessons from Paula Krueger at Northern State 

What does it really mean to love your team as a coach?

In this episode of the Significant Coaching Podcast, Matt Rogers sits down with Paula Krueger, Head Women’s Basketball Coach at Northern State University, for a real and reflective conversation on coaching, growth, and perspective.

A question Paula was once asked in an interview—“Can you love your team?”—has stayed with her throughout her career and continues to shape how she leads today. 

This conversation dives into:

•  How that question became a foundation of her coaching philosophy 
•  Why coaches can’t build their identity solely around the game 
•  The importance of seeing a coach’s full body of work, not just one season 
•  Lessons learned from stepping away—and coming back better 
•  How she approaches player development through staff, detail, and trust 
•  The role of mental performance and simple tools to help athletes reset during games 

Paula also shares powerful moments from her journey—like the advice that helped her leave a team she loved: “Don’t ever take or stay for a roster.” 

This is a conversation about more than basketball. It’s about identity, relationships, and becoming a better coach by becoming a more complete person.

👉 Learn more about Paula Krueger: https://nsuwolves.com/sports/womens-basketball/roster/coaches/paula-krueger/1598

Transcript

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On the latest edition of The Significant Coaching Podcast, a presentation of the coach Matt Rogers YouTube channel, available audio only everywhere you get your favorite podcast. I'm your host Matt Rogers. The world of college coaching is not for the thin skinned or for those that have weak stomachs. There's a ton of pressure and there are so few careers in the world where you can be dismissed simply for not being as good as your peers during an occasional down year. I have learned so much about second chances hosting this podcast and talking to the coaches. I have the best education for a coach is to be dismissed at least once in their career. I really believe that you're forced to find real perspective. You're forced to look in the mirror, and you have to remember why you coach and what truly matters to you. The problem is that there are too many ads and search committees who forget how much positive evolution can happen when a coach gets that unwanted opportunity. But it's true. Most of the best coaches on the planet and throughout the history of sports have failed many times before they figured it out, before they realized how to be the coach and the person they were meant to be. I can tell you from firsthand knowledge that I truly believe I am becoming the best version of myself as a coach, figuring out how to enjoy every opportunity I have to coach, mentor, and advise some 30 years after I coach my first team. We've had so many great coaches on this show, and I have so many great friends in the business, and you all know who you are because I'm speaking to you just as much as I'm speaking to the hiring managers out there. Second, chances matter, they are as invaluable as any first opportunity. The more we learn from our mistakes, the more we grow into joyful patient and authentic leaders. In our next chapter, today's guest is the epitome of what can happen when someone is given that second chance and when they truly embrace it. Paula Krueger is the head women's basketball coach at NCAA Division two Northern State University. She's always been a rockstar coach. She's always loved her players. She's always had an unbelievable work ethic, but in her return to her alma mater, she's found a level of grace and joy that I wish for every coach. Yes, she's still hard-nosed. Yes, she still pushes her team to find their full potential, but she's doing it now with a little more perspective and a little bit more pep in her step. I couldn't be more grateful for this conversation you're about to hear, and even more thankful for the friendship I now have with someone I admire and respect as much as her. Without further ado, here's my conversation with the tenacious, passionate, and resilient Paula Krueger. Coach Kruger, so great to see you. Thanks for being on the show. Thanks for having me on the show. I really appreciate it. You know, as we talked about, we moved to Colorado, I don't know, 11, 12 years ago, and it was kind of the heart of when you were at Colorado School of Mines and Highlands Rant, you know, doing, doing what you were doing here in Colorado. When you look back at your experience in Colorado, what jumps out at you most? I think, I think what jumps out to any coach the most is probably the people, but I was blessed to have great experiences at, at many levels and, you know, being at the Colorado School of Mines and being able to take a program that hadn't been, um, Doing maybe the things that people wanted it to do and getting to put my stamp on it. It was my first head coaching job at the college level. Finding a recruiting niche at a, at an engineering school for females. There was a lot of new that I learned at that time. And then when I left Colorado School of Mines, I, I jumped into a different realm. I was in sales for a little bit. And I wasn't going to coach. I just was going to kind of step away and give myself a little bit of time. A little high school called me. Yeah. And said, Hey, you live real close. Would you consider coming in and coaching our girls? And I was like, man, I don't know, called my husband and he said, I thought you wanted to take a break. And I said, I thought I did too, but I told him yes. So I ended up at Arrupe for, for a year, which was, Maybe the most remarkable experience in coaching just because of the difference in that institution and how they are prepping kids for college and those kids are working during the day and they're traveling from all over. I mean, I had a young lady that got on a bus at 5 o in the morning to come to school at Arrupe and would stay and practice and wait for a bus to hop onto that thing and not get home until 7 30 at night and turn around and do it every day. You know, it was different for me. That wasn't something I'd ever experienced that at a high school level. When the Thunder Ridge position came open, I was looking for what was going to be next, kind of in my life, like, am I going to teach? I liked sales, but I was not very good at the work from home thing. I found myself, you know, like, in my shorts and t-shirt at 4 o in the afternoon because I'd been on the computer or whatever all day, and I hadn't got to see anybody. And I'm, like, I'm in my office for about 20 minutes at a time, and I got to get up and go somewhere because I have ADD, I think. So, um, when Thunder Ridge came open, they were able to create A teaching position for me to go along with the coaching and it was far and away one of the greatest experiences I've, I've ever had on, on both sides, getting back into teaching what I hadn't done it for, oh my goodness, 20 years, just about at that, at that time. Right. And getting back into a classroom and, but being surrounded by like-minded people that knew the value of sports. and wanting kids to participate in those and, and doing it, you know, in my opinion, the right way. I'll never forget the principles really only question when it came to the coaching thing for me was, can you love your team? And I had never been asked that kind of question. And I remember it to this day. And I, I think that's probably The backbone of my coaching philosophy has always been to love my teams. Um, I don't like him every day and I tell him that, but I, I love them every day. And so Colorado, I'd been at Northern as an assistant, but Colorado and the three different experiences I had really shaped who I am today. And in a large, large way, I'm really interested in the question that was asked to you. Cause I, I liked that question too. But I, I'm, I'm more curious about where that question came from. Because for me, it's, it's, I'm like you. I coach because I love the kids. I love being around the kids. I love being on that court. I love watching their growth. I love challenging them and building unity. So I'm, I'm, did you, did you have a follow-up question of where that came from? Did you ever find that out? You know, I, I think part of it came from, it was a time I think part of it came from, it was a time In high school, where I think being coached hard was looked at as different, it was kind of when that ball was changing and if you were, you know, I mean, being coached hard and and what that looked like and, you know, from from their standpoint, they'd had a lot of success, but I think when they were going through that process of a coaching change and, you know, Bill, Bill Bradley was one of the best high school coaches. There was, you know, and to follow in Bill's shoes, I was thinking, my goodness, what do we, you know, I mean, all he did was win. But I think that her question came from a place of, I'd been at college and it was different and I'm coming down to high school. Um, you know, what's it going to look like? Can you love your kids? What's that look like to you going from college to high school? And, it was a great question. I think I probably went, well, of course I can. You know, of course I can love my kids. And then I remember, you know, expounding on the answer and what that would look like. And that's when I said, to do it the right way, I need to be in the building. Because originally I was just interviewing for the coaching piece. And I said, for that to be right for me, I need to be in the building. Like, I needed to be part of more than just the time I spent with him on the basketball court. I needed to see him at lunch. I needed to have him in class. I needed to be around the other teachers. So... I think it stemmed from, like, what that looked like for me. And then it became a, well, what can you teach and how can we get you into the building? And so then it became an overall position of teaching in the building and being there. Yeah, I, you and I have had a similar career flow. I, I coach men for nine, 10 years, and I coach women for three years. And then we had our second child in the middle of my third season at University of Luverne. And I, I had to take a break because my wife was the breadwinner and she was traveling and we now had two kids under four. So I moved into scouting and coaching, got into the business side a little bit, and I got, went back to coaching high school. And I, and I remember the challenges, but the joys of that, that transition might, it was the way she posed the question. I hate to keep going back to it. And you love your team. Why not ask, what does, what does love look like when you're coaching? What does the love of your team look like? So I'm curious how that, you know, just how they, she formulated that question was almost like, she was a, she was a former coach herself. And that was her point blank question is like, can you love your team? And I said, well, Absolutely. I can love my team. You know, that's how, that's when it then went into, okay, now tell me, you said you can do it. Now tell me what that looks like. You know, I mean, that's how she, that's how she framed it. And I have carried it with me now for a long time. I had never been asked that question. And in the coaching world, let's be honest, how many interviews do we actually really do? Like, it's usually somebody. reaching out to you saying, are you interested in this job? And then you, you know, then you talk to them, you know what I mean? The process itself is a little bit different because it is so much a relationship who, you know, type of business, you know, like you get your first coaching job mostly because you know, the person you're coaching with, or somebody there knows of you or, you know, that kind of way. So word of mouth and connections are so big in coaching. So when I got the opportunity, Um, it came because I had three of those young ladies play for me at the School of Mines. So I knew some parents at the school and, um, it, it kind of snowballed into, I wasn't really looking. I actually turned down another college position to stay in Colorado and be at Thunder Ridge. Um, something about it was exciting to me and it rejuvenated my love of coaching, not unlike Arrupe. And, it was. It was an, an amazing couple of years and when I left to come to Northern, it was honestly one of the toughest decisions I'd ever have, but, um, I, if, if there was ever a time where I knew I needed to love my team, it was there because that was a specific question she gave as to who I am and how I do things. And so it was it was fantastic. I loved every second. I write every week and and I'm always looking for inspiration and motivation. And I tell you what, it's it's it's stayed with you. It's going to stay with me. That question. I I'm that's what I'm writing about this week. I already know it. And it's such a great way to approach an interview with a coach. Because it gets to the heart. It's like I tell parents if you're going to go meet Paula Kruger. Yes, just know she can coach. Okay, you can you can ask her all those questions, but ask her what happens when you have three tests and three papers. Do your daughter has three papers doing a three tests in a week and she's overwhelmed academically. Ask her what happens. Your daughter, your daughter's got three papers doing a three tests in a week. 104 degree fever and thrown up at six o in the morning. Ask her those questions and you'll get to the heart of who she is, right? So I love that approach to an interview and, and I'm interviewing coaches right now for a college and helping them hire coaches. So I love that thought process. So I appreciate you sharing that. It's a great transition into your alma mater. You're back home and what a great. I would imagine. I imagine there's some things that aren't gift-like when you go back home. But you were away long enough that, that you got to go back home. I would imagine feeling a little bit, uh, a different person. Yeah. You know, it was, it was a unique situation when I left coach Fredrickson, who is one of the best to ever do it. I mean, 80 percent win percentage in 39 years of coaching college. It's it's unheard of. And when I left, he kicked me out the door. He said, you can't stay here. If you ever want to come back here. You need to leave like you need to, you need to go figure this out. You need to take what you've learned here and go be on your own. You need to succeed, fail all the things by yourself, you know, like go figure this out on your own. And by myself meant just not working with him, you know, I mean, and, he called when I was at Thunder Ridge and he said, I'm getting close to retirement. Um, I need an assistant. If you want an opportunity to be the head coach here, I think you need to come back so that our new administration can meet you, can see you, can understand you, can, can do all of the things. And, it took a, it, it took me a few days to, to make that decision because I, we had a really strong program at Thunder Ridge. Um, I had a great group of young ladies who I I love dearly and I wasn't 100 percent sure what I was going to do. So I called my old high school coach who I've kept in touch with and has kept in touch with me forever. And I, I just said to him, I said, coach, I don't, man, I don't know if I can leave this group of kids. And he said, Paula, don't ever take or stay for a roster. Did I make that mistake? Where was that advice 15 years ago when I needed it? If he hadn't have said it, I'm not sure that I would have looked at it the way that, you know, looked at it like that, because all I could think of was how hard it was going to be to tell those kids that I'm, that I'm not coming back. Um, the successes that, um, I might miss seeing in their life while they're going on and hats off to my assistant who took over, but Matt won a state title the year that I left. So it was fantastic. It was fun to watch, but, um, Had coach udder not said to me, don't stay or take a job for a roster. I don't know, I don't know where I would have, where I would have been, but he really put the, he put the screws to me, I guess, in saying, you know, like, well, what do you want? You know, like, who are you? What do you want to be? Where do you want to go? You're. You know, you're, you're 40 years old and you've got an opportunity here to, you know, to go back to what you once told me was your dream job. When I left Northern, my, my high school coach and my college coach both asked me, what do you want to, you know, where do you want to go? What do you want to be? Where do you see yourself? Kind of a question. And I said, I either want to be a division one college basketball coach or I want to come back and take over at Northern, whichever comes first. And, this came first. So here I am. It's such a great piece of advice, for so many reasons, but it... When you love your team and you love what you're building, you, you're always looking two, three, four years in advance. So to get that advice to say you got to kind of put that on the shelf. and look at everything else is a great way to do it. It's a great way to think it coach. You and I both got out of coaching and it's, and it's almost, uh, uh, it's almost like closing the door and they lock it and they're never opening it again. What do administrations and search committees get wrong about coaches that leave coaching for a little bit and then want to come back? What do they get wrong about those, those people? I, I don't know necessarily if I can say what do they get wrong, but I think, you know, I have a great friend who's been in college coaching for a long time and he said there's two types of coaches, those that have been fired and those that will be. And I think because coaching is, it's an amazing, amazing job, but it's a tough business and we're very much into a what have you done for me right now kind of thing. And, um, had I not. You know, resigned from minds and, and been, been asked to do so. I don't know if I would have thought much into what people get wrong until it came time for me to be hired again. And I think maybe what people get wrong is they struggle at looking at the whole picture. I'm not one season. I'm not as a coach. I'm not two seasons. I am the whole ball of West. It's like looking at it. It's like when they pick teams to be in the NCAA tournament, they look at your, your whole body of work. And I think we are so into the win right now. That sometimes we pass by, man, look, look where they started, look where they went, understanding that, um, like anything, college coaching is cyclical, right? Like, to stay at the top for extended periods of time, like what Gino Ariema has done, what Pat Summit did, you know, what Dawn Staley has done, those aren't the norm, right? That's not the norm. The teams that can go for three or four years and get, 18 to 20 wins a season that the teams that are always, you know, that are both 500 for 20 years in a row, like that, that is. That is hard to do. And I think in today's landscape, it's going to become harder just because of, you know, things we're going to talk about later, but the way recruiting has changed and and some of and some of those things. So I don't know if it's wrong, but I think what they miss is that. It's a, it's a whole body of work. It isn't just right now. Certainly you need to pick apart and find out, you know, why did they leave or where did they go or what were the circumstances or, you know, those kinds of things for you, your wife, you had two kids under four, like it just wasn't, it wasn't feasible. For me, we had a, we had a rough patch. We came together and we talked and it was, it was best for the program at that time. I mean, my assistant took over, so it wasn't like they totally went away from the kids that were there. It was just sometimes changes needed and, um, that's all it was there. There was a change needed and it helped me rejuvenate and find my passion and coaching again and where I needed to be better and what I needed to change. But I just think that the whole body of work has to matter, and we're so into they won last year. Well, yeah, but you know what? I mean, there are so many circumstances that can change that. In Division 2, especially, you know, one injury, Um, a budget, a budgetary change, uh, there's, there's just a lot that the loss of a loss of a staff member, you know, like if it's an assistant coach changes mid year, like there's a lot of things, um, that go into it. And especially at division two level, you wear so many hats. So you better find somebody that can wear all of those are feels relatively comfortable wearing all of them, whether it's the fundraiser or, you know, The teacher or, you know, the mom away from home or the helping with facilities or, you know, there's just, we don't have somebody that does, you know, those things organizing camp like we have our hand in all of that. And so I think it's important to see the whole ball of work, everything that they've done, not just what they most recently did. How do you feel like you've changed or grown or in, in my case, matured from where you were at Colorado Mines to where you're at now? What did that break do for you to give you that reflection to say, I'm going to reinvent myself a little bit. I'm still going to be that hard-nosed coach. I'm still going to love them the right way, but what was that for you? I, you know, about after we left, after we moved back here and I came to Northern, um, you know, I started to think about what are those things in coaching that would be my, my backbone things? Like what, what makes me who I am? And I think the thing that I grew the most in was. It's really tightening up my circle and who those people are and, and allowing that circle to really get to know me. I'm very social. I have tons of friends. I mean, I, and I, I love them all, but I made a, I made a really, I don't want to say like a, I made a very specific choice to make basketball be. part of a certain circle but not to let it be the only thing in my circle prior to that basketball kind of overshadowed everything i did you know i was my only identity was coach and i was going to get lost if i didn't find out that i was As good of wife, sister, daughter, aunt, friend, as I was coach. And so for me, I tightened up that circle for a while to hone in on being better at those other things. Because so much of my focus had been on, I'm a coach. And I can remember when, when everything went down at Mayans, sitting on my living room floor and, Just asking my husband like, well, who am I now? That's right. Like I went through that big time. Who am I now? I was, I was always coach. Who am I now? And so I think that was where my greatest growth came from was like, I have to understand that while this is my living and I love it. And it is more than a job. It's part of who I am. It isn't every piece. It can form and shape and, and help me be great in all those other areas. But those other areas, um, they're going to be there for the rest of my life. Coaching is not. Someday I won't be on the sideline anymore, but I'm always going to be somebody's sister, somebody's daughter, somebody's grandma, somebody's step-parent. Like, those roles, you know. And I needed to find some balance between being a, being a coach 24, 7, 365, because it's a lifestyle and I totally understand that. And that's the most cliche thing I've said on this so far, but it's true though, but it really, it really is. But learning how to turn that off. And having a circle that understood why I wanted to shut it off. My friends, after a game, they watch all the games and I'll get a text message, but like, when we lost in overtime this year in the first round of the conference tournament. Not one of my friends texted and said, Man, I'm so sorry. What a great year. Their text messages were like, When do we get to see you next? Or, Are you going on a vacation? Or, Are you going to go out and see your grandson now? Like, it wasn't, it wasn't centered around basketball. And for me, that was extremely important, because for a large part of my life, all my conversations were centered around what happened next in basketball. And they're, they're not, they're not anymore. Like yesterday I watched videos of my grandson learning how to snowboard. and the selection show was on and the old me would have turned off the videos and had my face pasted to the selection show because man i want to see what's going on well the selection show can be watched 950 different ways yeah hours later and so i think that part that's that was the greatest lesson for me was that i'm more And I need a circle that understands that. I think the great thing for me, I, you know, I've been out of college coaching now for 12, 13 years. I coached high school and help coaches and did some of that. But you said, I'm always going to be a sister. I'm always going to be a wife. I'm always going to be this and this. We're always going to be a coach as well. It's just different. You know, I'm like you. I'm sure you've got former players of their mid forties. Like I have, and I'm still hearing from them. You know, I'm S I still get the Christmas cards. I still get the calls about kids and jobs and things like that. And I love that even though I'm not coaching a program right now, I'm still coached to them and that relationship is still important to them. That means the world to me. 100 percent I think all of us get in there for that. I think I will always be a coach to the people that have played for me, even some that haven't. And I, I think like a coach, so I probably to people on the outside, I will have that role. I just needed to understand that my focus could grow in other areas and still allow me to be the same coach that I've always been, but probably better now because I am able to, you know, Step away a little bit and unwind and, um, you know, to shut it off a little bit and to remember that, um, the games and the wins and losses, they're, they're all great. And I, I'll have some memories, but every kid that I've coached has brought something to my life. Whether I, whether I have them for all four years or I have them for two or, you know, however that works out, or if I was their high school coach, whatever that is. I'm a better coach because I'm a better wife, a better mom, a better sister, a better aunt. Um, I'm just, I had to learn how to be better and, and that gave me the time to do that. Yeah, I love that. Thank you for going down that road with me. I know That's really, really personal and, uh, and thank you for opening it up. I needed to hear that. I'm still figuring some of that stuff out. I don't have it all figured out, Matt, but most day, most days it's become, it's, it's like training anything else like it, it, I had to practice it, right? Like it's not something that just comes, it's really easy for me to want to do. Basketball. While my husband wants to have a conversation, you know, like I'm, I'm thinking about the recruiting portal and what's my squad going to look like next year and all of those, you know, that kind of thing. And he wants to talk about a weekend where we're going to go see the kids in our, in our grandson. I'm like, just give me a minute. And he's like, no, you give me a minute. That's right. That's you're right. That's fair. Yeah. So good for him. You need that partner in this job. Need that partner said, Nope, we're going to do this first instead of always doing that first. And that's hard. It's hard on your partner and coaching is so hard on the other person. Cause my husband has done, my husband has done it for 30 years. We've been married for, for 30 and he's been with me at every coaching, every coaching step. And I'm sure there were times he thought, Oh my goodness, what did I, what did I sign up for? Yeah, we're hitting 29 this year. So I'm with you. I awesome. You stayed with me for some reason. I'm not sure what I said. That's my husband all the time too. Again, thank you for that really means a lot to me. I don't know how many listeners will understand why we went down that road, but I think for a lot of coaches, we all have that love and that ability and it never goes away. Even when we move on to other things. Um, and, and there's always that drawback. It's like the ocean for some people that they just, or the mountains for some people for coaches. It's, I gotta be back on that court. I gotta be working with these kids. It just, it doesn't leave our soul. No, it's definitely part of who we are. We're wired. We're wired that way. Yeah, let's get into player development. Because, because I know how important that is at the Division Two level. It's always great when we get that kid to transfer in from Colorado, Colorado State, you know, Denver. But for the most part, Division Two, you still have to bring in freshmen. You still have to bring in that 19-year-old, that junior college kid, and you got to develop them. What does that look like for you? Where does that begin, even maybe even in the evaluation period, and we'll get into recruiting, but where does that development start for you to get a kid ready to be a contributor in your program? I think the first thing for me is that I have to have a staff. That is willing to be part of that development and hiring people that can really teach and can break it down that see things the same way as you do, yet can challenge some of the things you see and can broaden, um, you know, that scope. I think that, is probably a top priority, priority for me, and I have been blessed to have staff that are very, very good at it, that allow me to tell them, these are the things I think we need to get better at, this is where we need to develop, let's come up with a plan. And that's an area where I really try to let my assistant coaches, now that I've been doing this for so long, grow. If they're doing something that makes no sense to me, If it doesn't fit into what we've discussed or whatever, um, I'll have a conversation, but skill development for me and player development on the physical side. Um, my assistant coaches and I sit down and talk about that and I let them do the work and then I'm out at the workouts and I'm, you know, like her feet are. Watch your feet here. This isn't, this isn't what we want to teach and you know, those kinds of things. So I'm kind of the nitpicky. I'm the fine tooth comb that goes out to the workout and really like she's so inconsistent with her feet this way. We got to change it. She's got to be a one, two. She's got to be, you know, a jump stop. She's got to step whatever it may be. That's what I look for. And then I have my assistants really hone in on that when they're planning their workouts. You know, somebody doesn't, somebody's loose with their handles. Um, even if it's a post kid, then we've got to get that kid in with some of our point guard workouts here and we got to tighten up the handles. These are the areas where she's going to use it. Yeah. Now, what are the two or three things that we can do as a staff to make sure that she's, you know, she's, you know, getting that, that piece done so that the physical part of player development, I rely a lot on my assistant coaches so that I can have a broader view so that I can watch the workout and, um, I'll never forget I went to a practice at the University of Tennessee I would have been a diehard balls fan and, Tanya Hobby helped me have an opportunity to go to a practice there. And so Holly Warlick was coaching and she was squatting down sitting at the doing an individual workout, but she wasn't doing the workout. She was watching it, but she was on the floor, squatted really low against the stanchion of the basket. And after practice, I asked her. So why would, like, why were you down so low and squatting down? Because I could tell you were paying attention. And she said, I can see their feet better from feet level. And so, I was like, Oh, light bulb. So it's not uncommon to see me at a practice now being down, you know, down on one knee, looking at just really honing in on their feet, if that's what I want to see, or if I'm more worried about what's happening up top, it might be standing, or it might even be standing up on the back of. You know, a chair or something where I'm at the level of what I'm trying to watch. But that was a really, that was a unique, she and Pat summit both. And I went back and I watched some Pat summit videos and Pat had said the same thing. So Holly obviously took it from there, but getting down to that level. So I really try to hone in on the smaller things. Like if we've got a kid right now, the spin under ball is funky and I've been watching her hands. And so I'm looking at a new tool right now to try and help take that. spin off of it, so quits turning sideways, because it is hard for the ball to go in when it spins that way, so That s what I do with the physical development. My assistant coaches put the workouts together and then I go out, kind of pick apart you know, what I see. With the emotional and the That kind of thing. I spend a lot of time with my players just trying to have, conversations, carversations, if you will, where we're talking about, you know, what leadership looks like for them. You know, my old, my old college coach always used to say, you have three choices. You can lead, you can follow, or you have to get out of the way. And so trying to find out how my kids. Are they leaders? Are they more of a follower? Are they okay with just getting out of, you know, being out of the way and just doing what they're told? Like, what, what are their, what are their ins and outs? How do we pick that apart? How do we, how do we find that? How do we grow them? And, my point guards in, you know, specifically, they get coached pretty hard by me. Um, because I, I really do try to hand over the keys. I want to, you know, I want to make sure that, you know, that they know what they're doing. You know, I'll buy you the car and I'll, I'll help you steer, but I want, I want you to drive it. I try to really be, uh, a player led program because I think their buy-in is greater when they feel the value they have to that program. And it took me some time to learn that that wasn't a. That wasn't like day one, come in and, and be that way. It took some time to understand how do you get, how you get that buy-in. Each team is a little bit different. There's people that are a little bit different. And so I spend a lot of time as the head coach with. emotional a little bit. And then, you know, the mental performance side, we have looked outside our staff now for the last three or four years to have somebody that has trained in and understands mental performance from a, from a standpoint that I don't. Um, I learned something. They coach me too. Like I go through the process with them. They sit down with me and be like, coach, when you respond this way, this is what they see when you, and so it, it helps reframe a little bit of what I'm trying to get across because, you know, we spend so much time on the physical part of basketball and the analytical part, you know, like learning the sets and plays and, and where you need to be. And, you know, the physical part that we talked about in player development. The mental performance piece has become extremely important, in my opinion, and I'm not necessarily trained to be that person, so you see more and more people reaching out and finding others that can bring mental performance, and mental performance and mental health are two different things, you know, I mean, um, the mental performance piece of training your brain, how you talk to yourself, how you, you know, your body language, things that can snap you out of it, how you, how you focus, how you prepare, you know, all of those things that I've learned so much. And so the, the mental performance piece, I do what I can, but I go outside that and find people that are trained in it. People that I know and trust that have taken that path that can come into the program and, and really help kids with, with that avenue. So that I'm trying to develop the whole, the whole person in player development, not just can you knock down a three, can you defend, you know, that kind of piece. Do you mind sharing something you've learned from that world and maybe give us a specific nugget about overcoming adversity. You miss a bunch of shots, you have, you have a bad game. Yeah. What some of the tools you've learned to kind of help kids overcome some of that. So one of the, one of the things that we learned was mechanisms to Um, you know, get yourself out of that. You know, you've missed a couple of shots, so you would see one of my players this year, she missed a couple of shots, you'd see her clap three times and that was her trigger to come back. Like I, I missed a shot, bring myself back. So she clapped three times. You would see, I had another player that wore a rubber band and when she turned it over, she was a point guard and she led the country and assisted turnover and when she turned it over, she was not very happy with herself. And a lot of times it would put her into that. I turned it over. Then I foul like she would do a double negative. She was young. She wore a rubber band and when she turned it over, she'd snap and that snap would, you know, bring her back. So there were little things that that each player could do. Some you find a spot in the gym. That was one that they talked about. Find a spot that you look at. Give yourself a breath for like in for four. Out for three, now go back and play. And so every kid kind of found, you know, their own niche. But I think, um, the greatest thing for me that I learned as a coach was what my players actually heard. When I spoke, yeah, that's so interesting because like one of the drills they did, they said, okay, coach just took a timeout and she said, get your butt down and guard somebody. And then he asked, what did you hear coach say? Did you hear coach say, get your butt down and guard somebody? Did you hear coach say I suck at defense? Did you not hear coach at all? And of my 13 players, 10 heard I suck at defense. Three heard, get your butt down and guard. And so understanding how I speak and what I say and what they hear, that's where learning every person is different. Now the kids have to come around too. They've got to develop a little bit of a understanding of coach speak too, but it was really unique. To hear that it was that drastic, like never at any point did I say you can't guard anybody. I simply said, get your butt down and guard. And so learning that piece as a coach, that was a big one for me. That was a, that was a nugget that I carry. So I'm, I try to be, um, More pinpoint, I guess, not very broad. I'll be like, Hey, we got to guard better. And to do that, we got to have a better stance. So do I love it? No, because sometimes I'm like, I'm a pretty emotional person. And sometimes the fire just comes out. I'm like, Ooh, can't rewind that one. I'm like, it's already out there. Can't take it back. Um, but that was, that was really unique for me to hear that. I think for me, for probably the first 20 of my 30 years coaching it, my, my way of dealing with that was. hear the words, don't listen to the tone, but that's not enough. Oh, and I, I've, I've said that a hundred times, you know, like hear the message, not the, you know, not how it, how it comes out. And they're like, no, I don't care. Like literally. And I, I literally, the, the clip that he had was me saying, get your butt down and guard. Like, that's what it was. It wasn't. You know, he pulled it from and he said it, he didn't show the clip, but he pulled it from something that I had said either in practice because he came and he watched and I wasn't fired up, at least in my mind, I wasn't, you know, fired up and but they heard that they can't play defense and I literally was just saying we gotta, you know, put our butt down. So I think that piece was really big to me and the self talk. I didn't realize how many players. You know what they say to themselves and how they say it because I'm not in your head, right? I can't, I can't hear it. And when they had to verbalize what they would say to themselves when they missed a shot, I was like, dude, is that really helping you? Like, is that, is that really going to make you better? And for one of my players, who's, who's now a high school coach, I was like, now I said, when you see that look on your players' faces, all that work that you did to stop talking to yourself that way, you can, you, you got to find a way to help them because it eventually helps, you know, it's one thing to say you're better than that. Like, snap out of it, but to tell yourself, why do I suck so bad? Like there's, there's a way to, to frame and phrase those things. And so self-talk was a big focus for us, um, a couple of years ago in just reframing a word, you know, like have to, and get to, it sounds funny, but when you say I get to go to practice for, oh, we have to go to, you know, it changes your mindset. And so how much words really do matter when you're talking to yourself. I love that. Gosh, that's so good. Which it's hard when you're coaching when you're adult You you want? You want to move on, right? You want to, this is, this is what's got to get better. Okay. Now we're onto the next thing. Correct. And that teenage mind doesn't work that way. They get lost in that slug of what you just said. They can't get past it. Right. Oh, a hundred percent. I, I laugh now, but I've got some former players that will, um, they actually had a, a, a party one time, a gathering, and they all brought things that coach K had said, and that was when I was at mines and I was like, These are the things you remember that these are the statements that you remember you don't remember when I told you like, man, that was a great rebounder, man, I've never seen anybody get to the room that you know, like, I, you don't remember those. And so they're like, not as much coach like we're trained negative. We have, what did I don't remember the exact number, but negative thoughts in our mind. It's, it's an unbelievable number. And our brain is wired to think negative things. And so they remember those things and they weren't necessarily negative. They might've just been funny, or I might've just said. Something like she's going to have 100 points if you keep guarding that way. And then I, I would move on, right? Well, they remember she's going to have 100 points if you guard that way, but they don't remember when I said, man, that was unbelievable defense. Like they, that didn't register. So now I've gotten to the point where when I give a compliment and I really want them to remember, I will, I will say in practice, write it down. That's right. So that somehow they track that because inevitably I'm going to Coach, there's going to be, there's going to be criticism, you know, you've got to be coachable and it's not, I hate the word criticism, but that's technically what it is. You're trying to fix, you're trying to change, you're whatever, and if that's all you remember, the times that I've told you, that was right. Yeah. Like the way that you did it right there, that was right. So I, I will say. Write that down. I remember being 16 and my high school coach in the middle of a game, port and game said, Rogers, don't think it hurts the team. Almost 40 years later, I've said it so much to my wife that she now says it to me, you know, just to get under my skin. For sure. I don't think it hurts the team, you know? And so we have to train ourselves as coaches. Instead of saying, if you don't change what you're doing, she's going to score 100 points. We have to really think down to the detail. Hey, we're not letting her metal switch your feet. We're forcing something. She doesn't do any, we don't let her go anywhere but sideline. Right. And all of a sudden. We've changed the course of her thought process. We changed the course of the game because we help them think the right way. Yes, that's, that is probably my greatest challenge as a coach because, um, I've worked hard on emotional intelligence. I think all of us as coaches have because we're just, we're better when we are, but there are times when you're in the heat of the moment and you word vomit. And it comes out and then you're like, Oh man, can't take that back. And then that's when I've learned, you know, I got to eat it. I got to go to down and I got to tell her like, Hey, that shouldn't have come out that way. I, you know, I apologize. I had a moment here's where we, here's where we need to correct. So like if, if, if I do that, um, and I, somebody wants to tell me like, coach, you really only have like a double barrel shotgun. If you, if you fire off. hardcore stuff six, seven, eight times during the course of the year. It loses its effectiveness, but if you use it two times, they remember it. And so, um, you know, you don't have a semi-automatic, you don't have a six shooter as you know, my, my family, so you got a double barrel, you get to shoot twice. And if you start shooting too many times, it loses its effectiveness. And now you become the teacher to. In Charlie Brown. They don't hear anything you're saying. So, so that I, I'm, I'm a work in progress, but after 32 years, I feel like I definitely have gotten better. If you went back and asked the kids that I coached 30 years ago, they would be like, man, you are so mellow. You have really toned down here. And I'd be like, sorry guys. You're right. I have, I'm still the same person. I just didn't know what I didn't know 30 years ago. Well, it's funny. I had a great conversation with Candace Motes a few months ago. She, you know, hall of fame coach in, in Indiana. And, um, she was ready to quit four or five years ago. She just had, she was burnt out. She felt like she was burning out her kids and she just, she switched her brain and said, I'm going to start having fun. I'm going to start enjoying these kids. I'm going to start, um, enjoying this opportunity that I have. And she, you know, she'd won 800 wins by that point, but she was burnt out. And by flipping that switch and finding that joy in practice every day and finding that joy of just being there. Like you said, I get to go to practice instead I have to go to practice. They've won three straight national championships at Indiana Wesleyan. You know, and I just, that hit me like a load of bricks. So what you're saying is just, it's like a hammer to my head. Gosh. Why is it taking me so long to get there? I, we used find your joy as a locker room statement this year when we played, you know, on my play card on every one of them, it says find your joy. And I think, um, for me, we get lost in everybody wants to win and there's pressure to win. Yeah. But if you aren't having fun while you're trying to do that, if you aren't finding joy in it, um, then why? I mean, and so that, you know, when you said finding your joy, that's something that we talked about a lot this year is find your joy. Love that. I go back when I'm training coaches or I'm consulting on a campus. Yes, you had a great mentor. You had some great mentors in your career, but nobody sits down with us when we're 22, 23 years old and goes, this is how you build your budget. That's how you build your budget. This is how you, you build out a 12 month recruiting strategy. This is what an 80 practice stretch should look like. For sure. This is what it should look like when you're down and you're up and you're flying or you're hurt or right. Nobody sits down and has those. Maybe they did for you. Nobody did that for me. No, nobody. And I don't know, you know, like that's a great idea. Maybe we need to sit down and start to do that with, with people, you know. Yes. I'm trying, but I'd love to talk more about this because it's so necessary. A hundred percent. And you know, I was, I was lucky enough that I was able like to call home and to ask coach Fred, you know, these things that I can read. I can remember many times where I asked, you know, what would you do in practice if we were, were really struggling right here? How, how would you build that? And I felt comfortable being able to do that, but I certainly, um, I try and build my practices with my assistant coaches. We have a meeting before each one and we sit down and I ask them what they think we need to work on, what we need to work on. But like when it comes to budgeting and how are you going to build your fundraising portion of, you know, like that's a, that's a, that's a thing in, in division two and I don't think it's going away. It's a thing in NAI. It's a thing at division three, like there, there are things that you, that you have to do. the other parts of that, like that I. I grew into because I think because of my social abilities, but how to be a face of a program. That's a, that's a different thing than being somebody's assistant and you know, answering questions and being in the press conferences and how you talk on the radio and how you answer questions to the paper and, How are you going to handle that first time this kid comes in and tells you that, you know, they're, they're failing classes and, or they're really struggling or grandma is sick or comes in and tells you like, coach, I don't, I don't think this is, I don't think this is right. I think that I would, I should be playing more, you know, like. Nobody coached me through those conversations, right? So I'm, I'm like, huh, flying by the seat of my pants a little bit. I'm just doing what feels natural to me, but I had no idea if it was right. And so, you know, what you said there, we probably do need to sit down and come up with, it's almost like a manual, you know, like a coaching for dummies book, you know, they have that for, for everything, but you have to build it your own way. But man, when you're first starting out, there were so many things that I thought I was ready. Cause I'd been an assistant for so long and then you get into those first five years and I mean, there's something coming at you all the time. You're like, dude, wasn't ready for that. You know, I remember being a 26 year old head college coach and having to deal with a coach. My girlfriend's pregnant or a coach. My mom's in the hospital with a blood clot and you know, or seeing a kid dislocate their ankle trying to dunk and on the floor and in complete shock. Yes, ankle is completely dislocated or a finger was dislocated. You know, or there's so many things that we go through emotionally as a coach. For sure, you can't be prepared for it without somebody saying, Hey. You're going to have some crazy times that are going to happen to you and you're not going to be prepared for him. I can't tell you what to do in every situation, but here's three things you should do first. Right, right. So yeah, whenever you want to talk about that, let's do it. I mean, I keep thinking I'm going to, I'm going to go to all these high schools and I'm going to bring up Paula Kruger with me and we're just going to have a town hall. We're going to do 25 minutes of talking to coaches and parents and kids about. Here's some things. We wish we would have known when we were in your shoes and then we're going to do 25 minutes of Q&A. What are the things you're dealing with? What are the things you feel like you need help with? You know, absolutely. I don't know if enough people would show up to make a difference, but man, I think it's necessary. Yeah, 100, 100%, especially with the, especially with the, just the changing landscape of sports in general and, the role that it's currently playing is so much greater than it, than it has been, you know what I mean? From professional sports on down. I agree. Let's do a little rapid fire and wrap this up. Let's do some fun stuff and get to know you a little bit better. Who's the best shooter you've ever coached? Well, you're the best shooter I've ever coached. Eva Tomova. What was she great at footwork was the follow through consistency, the mental game, she was ultra consistent her feet and her release. I would say maybe 95 percent of the time were identical. Very rarely was she off balance. Yeah. And the other thing that she did that was so great is she could use the glass. from anywhere. So her midrange, she the lost art of using the glass. She had it in spades raindrop. Yes, it was unreal. Oh God, that's such a lost skillets. I mean, I mean, name five people that were great at the glass. I mean, Tim Duncan, you know, um, back in my day, Larry Bird was pretty good at finding angles. On the glass bird could use it from bird could use it from, from anywhere. You, if you break down the game now, I don't know if I could say that there's somebody that just really used, used the glass and the mid range is a lost art to people don't use it because analytics have become so important. But I wanted the ball to go on the hoop and she could shoot it and she could use the glass. It's great. I just thought of George Girvin was so good at it as well. Best defender you've ever coached. Um, I'm going to go with Bryn Elfson. She played a four here for us, and she could just she could guard so many different spots, but she gained energy from defense. All the time, you know, taking charges and guarding people bigger than her. And it maybe wasn't that she was the most skilled, but the heart that she put into doing it and accepting whatever role it was, was probably, and I've had a lot of good defenders, but she sticks out just because that was how she could change the game. Is it embracing eyes on the belly? No, one's getting around me. Nobody's getting an angle on what was it about her? I think it was just. She embraced a challenge. Like if you said, Hey, we're, this is who you got and we need to, we needed to shut her down. She was, and she was an undersized post kid. And I think that's probably what I thought was really cool too, is you could put her on somebody bigger and she just had the mindset of, okay, you might score once, but you're not going to do it twice. And, you know, I mean, the ability to, to switch out and guard in the perimeter. Her help side defense was really, really solid. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, she was, she would just, and it wasn't that she stole the ball a lot. She just was in the right place at the right time. We're going to get into that help side in the next segment. Hardest place to win in the NSIC. Right here in wolves country. That's what I wanted to hear coach. Good answer. What's your favorite defensive system? If, if you, if you could pick the kids and you could play the defense you wanted to play, how would you do it? You know, I'm, I'm more of a Pac-Line fan as far as like gaps and, and making it hard to, to get into the paint. You know, we've, we've seen so much dribble drive that we've kind of adopted that. Like we got to try and take away the middle of the floor as often as we can. But honestly, if we could play man, switch it all and dominate the paint, I would play that style of defense. Every day all day on the reason to switch it all is because people shoot the ball really well now. So, um, we, we made a conscious effort to take away the three this year and it, and it, it benefited us, but it meant that the ball was hitting the floor and so keeping people in front and having a place to take away was really important and so we tried to eliminate the middle of the floor and the pain as much as we could. I'm real intrigued by the numbers that have been coming out about the teams and the coaches that are going. No help, zero help. And, and what that stats looking like where so many teams are doing the dribble drive and you can't kick, there's nowhere to kick to, and they're just focusing on, we're going to get really good at keeping that ball in front. I'm intrigued by that. I've never been that coach in my life, but I'm, I'm intrigued by that. We did a little bit more of that with a couple of our teams this year. We're like, especially off the ball side corner, you can't come in because the dribble drive is just, it only takes one step. So like, we didn't give up on help, but we were real. Like a quick punch recover. We did a lot more peel switching than we'd, than we'd done before. So that if we did have to help, cause we were just getting drilled on it, that we knew how to peel out and still contest a shooter. So, less, less help has become definitely a thing, you know what I mean? And I feel like for us, we could trade twos. And we weren't as good a three-point shooting team. So we were going to take the three away. And sometimes that meant we were going to be on an island by themselves when it came to people, put the ball on the floor. Yeah. It's like anything else, you know, whether you take away baseline, you give baseline, it's all about coaching it and just getting that 100 percent buying in that muscle memory. I mean, if you're not doing it every day, you're probably not going to get good at it. Yeah. And we, you know, we really tread. to focus on some tendencies of people that had really strong tendencies, especially with post play, because a lot of times they were on an island by themselves. We were playing a three point shooting team. Um, but we tried to, you know, take away the baseline, don't give up any free layups, make them shoot something over the middle where you can contest it. So our philosophy with our posts. And then the philosophy with the guards, you kind of had to, we had two separate things because we weren't the post run on island by themselves the first time through the league. And then the second time through the league, then we tried to adjust and bring a little help. Like it's just, we're in a really good league. So defense for us, like you, we, you tend to try and shut people down. And so philosophically protecting the paint was important, but if we couldn't shoot threes with people, we were going to trade twos. And that meant a lot of times people were on that island by themselves. People probably were like, why did they give up? Just one-on-one at the block because we didn't want to give up wide open threes on the perimeter. Because your, your conference is so diverse in terms of what kind of talent is there and how they attack. Can you be that team that says, we're going to be this offensively, we're going to be this defensively every night. It doesn't matter who we're playing against, or is that not even a world anymore you can live in? Some teams do that. Like there, we have a couple of teams, my former assistant, Ryan, that's at Minot, he switches everything. That's what he believes, that's what he practices, that's what he buys, and it's, it's worked, it's worked for him. Mankato is Mankato, man, they press, they have the four different, they're in your shorts for, you know, 40 minutes and they do their thing. I think what you can count on in our league is that, you know, The defense is going to be physical. It's going to, it's going to make you work hard and they're going to find your top one or two strengths and they're really going to do everything they can to eliminate those. Like when they played Northern, it was, we're going to take away the paint. So they would, it's not uncommon to see four people in the lane when the ball's out on the perimeter, like the help side was unbelievable. Um, so paint was going to be taken away and they were going to force us to take some shots from the perimeter. You know, when you play. Sioux Falls and Southwest and Mary, who all could shoot the three really well, you were going to see teams try to extend their defense a little bit and, and not give up the three because that's, that's what they were known for. So I just, I think it's a different way. Yeah. I think that you have to be able to adjust just a little bit, but your physicality and your rebounding are going to stay constant in this league because you can't give teams second chances. Love it. Last one. Most underrated skill in basketball today. Post-entry pass. Is that the truth? I don't know if it's just something that, and it's probably related a little bit to the way basketball has changed because we don't necessarily have tons of teams that play with the traditional post anymore. You know that you, there's a lot of that five out stuff, but somebody is cutting through and getting somebody on their back. and the ability to give them the ball whether it's a true post or it's maybe i should say paint entry whatever that may be but for us we have a true post and the post entry pass is something that i need to do a better job of focusing on we work on it but we probably don't work on it enough because there are times where we just don't see somebody and i'm like dude you can see their chest like i can read their chest All their numbers and I can see wolves and she's not getting the ball. I don't understand. Right. So, um, but I just think past, yeah, I just past faking and where they want to get a touch, thrown it to their hand and, um, you know, being able to baseline bounce pass and create space for yourself. Like it, it just, To me, that's the most underrated skill and it's the, a lost art right now. Well, it's, it's a two man job. It's, it's the post has to seal. The post has to be physical. They have to hold the seal. They have to jump to the ball. They have to, you know, they're, there's, they have to be strong with the catch. There, there's so many parts to that. Again, you're not teaching it and you have to teach it because how many high school coaches are teaching it? How many, how many high school coaches are have an offense where they're, the ball's going into the post 20, 30 times a game? When's the last time you saw a high school team do that? Not, not a whole lot. I mean, there's, there's, there's a, there's a handful that, you know, that utilize that, but it's not a, it's not a real common, a real common thing. And so working on it is important, but there are those people that. Back to Basket are, you know, I think of Lauren Betts that's playing right now for UCLA and it would be a travesty if that kid didn't want to be 15 feet and in. That's right. I mean like screening and rolling her and that kind of thing because you just one-on-one you can't stop the kid. Coach, it's been a pleasure talking to you. I hope you'll come back in about 15 more minutes and we'll talk some recruiting, but thank you for who you are and what you're doing. And I'm so glad you're back doing it at this level. And, I've learned a ton today. Thank you. Thank you. That's a wrap on a world class conversation with a world class coach in person. Thank you, coach K for giving me and our audience so much of you. I cannot wait for the next conversation for those of you looking for your next speaker to come to your school or organization to motivate your community and help your athletes, coaches, parents, and leaders find common ground to do good work. I encourage you to reach out to me. Feel free to email me anytime at Coach significance@gmail.com or schedule a Zoom meeting with me@coachmattrogers.com. I look forward to getting to know you and helping your community become the best version of itself. Until next time, stay focused on what you can control. Stay humble and keep chasing significance.