Episode #187: Andrew Kachel on Recruiting

⚾ The New Reality of College Recruiting | Andrew Kachel Part II 

College recruiting is changing—and the junior college route may be more valuable than ever.

In Part II of my conversation with Northeastern Junior College Head Baseball Coach Andrew Kachel, we break down the realities of recruiting at the two-year college level, the new 5-for-5 rule, the transfer portal, and why families need to rethink how they evaluate college opportunities.

Coach Kachel explains why JUCO can provide athletes more opportunities to play, develop, mature academically, and potentially make themselves more recruitable and affordable to four-year programs. 

We also discuss what families should look for when evaluating junior colleges, why placement and fit matter more than simply saying you went Division I, and how recruits can get a coach's attention without spending thousands of dollars chasing exposure.  

If you're a student-athlete, parent, high school coach, or anyone trying to understand the changing college recruiting landscape, this conversation provides a valuable look at the opportunities available at the two-year level.

Significant Recruiting Resources — Take the guesswork out of college recruiting with Significant Recruiting: The Playbook for Prospective College Athletes, sport-specific Recruit’s Journals, and the Significant Recruiting Launchpad. Practical tools to help families research schools, stay organized, and build a smarter recruiting strategy. Learn more at CoachMattRogers.com.

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We're back for part two of my conversation with Andrew Katchel, head baseball coach at Northeastern Junior College, and today we're talking recruiting. The college recruiting landscape continues to change quickly, and Coach Katchel gives us a great perspective from the two-year college level. We break down why junior college can be such a valuable path for student athletes, how families should evaluate JUCO programs, what coaches are really looking for in recruits, and how athletes can make themselves more recruitable without spending thousands of dollars trying to get noticed, as we dig into the new five-for-five rule and what it can mean for junior college athletes and the future of college recruiting. So if you're a high school athlete, a parent, or coach trying to understand where college recruiting is headed, there's a lot in this conversation for you. I'm Matt Rogers, and this is the Significant Coaching Podcast Welcome back to part two of my conversation with Coach Andrew Katchel, head baseball coach at Northeastern Junior College If you didn't listen to Friday's conversation, go back and listen. Coach gave some really heartfelt stories, great advice for young coaches going through this journey. That's what we talked about, resilience. We talked about the importance of failure. We talked about the importance of being yourself and being authentic to who you are on and off the field in whatever you're doing as a coach. So Coach, thanks for being back and talking some recruiting with me. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Coach, I do this for a living. I've become this person that my life kind of revolves around recruiting, whether it's working with coaches on their recruiting strategies, or working with families, or working with presidents and ADs. Recruiting is such a big part of my life. I, there's a lot of days I wish it wasn't, because it's such a crazy world, and it's changing so much. When you look at the state of college recruiting, is there some positives we can take from the changes that have kind of been thrust on all of us coaches? Is there some things coming where you're like, "I think we're getting to a place where this is gonna be good for kids?" I mean, I think so. I hope so. Um, you know, recently in the past 12 months, um, it, it, I feel like there's a lot of good. Like, like the recruiting world is getting reeled back into reality a little bit. Yeah. Um, I know we've gone- Reeling we've gone through so much change from, from 2020, and, and COVID is what really was the domino that, that, that started all of this with the granted back eligibility. And then the following year they also granted back eligibility. So we, we had all this, a mass bulk of, of student athletes, but not enough places for, for the student athletes to play. Yeah. Um, then I think there was the reaction to that, where th- there very well may or may not be a, you know, an ESPN 30 for 30 someday on, on all the fine writing rules that were knee-jerk, I think, reactionary rules created- Yeah realizing once two years worth of eligibility was granted back, then how do we find a way to weed, unfortunately weed kids out, to, to get the numbers back in, in flocks? Um, you know, from that then we've had the transfer portal. We've had NIL. We've had all these things. Um, and now, uh, we're starting to see a shift, I hope back to reality with the, the five for five rule. We're putting, putting an actual cap on, on college eligibility and, and realizing that even though we are- We have the ability to pay college athletes or student athletes that, that this still isn't a profession, and there needs to be a, you know, a ceiling or a cap, a limit on, on how long these, these student athletes can stay in college before they need to, to start a real life, real world, real career and- Yeah and get on with their life. So, you know, I, I think there's, right now we're still in a, a lot of uncertainty in the world of recruiting, but, but hopefully there's a glimpse of it seems like the things are getting reeled back in and hopefully headed back down a, I would hope, a better, better road, better direction. Let's, let's put you in my living room. Imagine I've got a 17-year-old recruit that you, you're recruiting, and you're teaching us about that five for five rule. What do I need to understand that if I want to send my kid to junior college? What, what do, what are, what are the things we need to understand about that journey, and why it can be really valuable for that young man or young woman to take those, take those two years? Yeah, I mean, same at the current moment in time. Right now, the five for five's only passed for Division I. I would assume Division II and Division III are gonna follow suit very soon, but as of today- I agree you know-- Yeah it is what it is. I just like- Yep being transparent as always with parents and players. Um, but I think my biggest, you know, talk with, with families, parents, players, prospective student athletes about junior college is I think most junior colleges hit on the, the importance of selling we get more practice time. We get more games. We get more time with your, your son or your daughter, developing them throughout the course of the year. We're not as restricted or limited in our contact hours as the NCAA is, which I think that's primarily where, where junior college coaches sell and promote going the JUCO route. Um- Yeah is based on that. And oftentimes sadly, though, that's where the conversation stops. Yep. Where for me, you know, I immediately then try and, yes, we touch on that, but immediately to me the most important, um, you know, reason or, or I think selling point of going junior college in reality is, is academics and f- and finances. Um- Yeah every college in the country's funded on two things, graduation rates, retention rates. So the more students that they retain, the more funding they get, whether it's state, federal, whatever it may be. The more graduate on time, the more funding they get, whether it's state, federal, whatever it may be. So I then turn to parents and say, "Okay, so who's gonna qualify for more academic scholarship money in the long run?" The high school kid going to a four-year school who might change his degree three times, you know, doesn't know what he wants to be when he grows up yet, might get homesick, might get girlfriend sick, you know, might quit. Or the junior college athlete who just spent two years out of school, so check, he was retained, and graduated with an associate's degree, so he's 50% degree complete towards his bachelor's. Okay? So we usually talk about that, but where this is now especially important in today's realm or world of recruiting is at the Division I level, they've now passed the 34-man roster limit. Can have 34 full rides now as well. Yep. But let's be honest, okay, outside the, the Power Five, SEC handful of programs, how many Division I schools are making the jump from the prior 11.7 to 34 full funded scholarships? I don't think many are gonna go that route. Do you? Not, not many. Not what I'm hearing. So, you know, you're talking maybe a dozen schools have 34 full rides- Right and NIL and, and the funding and support they have. Right. But for everyone else in, in the nation, and let's talk about all your mid-majors or your Division I programs in the Midwest- Mm they've now gotta find a way to make their dollar go further to where to keep up with the big boys who have that funding. Okay, so goes back to where I started. Do we wanna sign the 18-year-old who throws 92? Okay, let's say school all-in cost $20,000 a year. Okay, well, that 18-year-old's gonna qualify for $2,000 in academic scholarship, so it's gonna take 18 of my baseball money to get him to a full ride. Right. Okay? Or let's take the 20-year-old Who throws 92. Okay? Same height, same weight, all the above, but he just went two years of junior college. He's not only two years bigger, stronger, faster, more mature, more experienced, he also has a 3.5 GPA and graduated with an associate's degree. So now let's say he's gonna qualify for $15,000 in academic scholarship, and it's only gonna cost me five of my baseball money to get him to that same full ride, full offer. Right. Okay? So this is where I don't think parents understand that by going junior college, in reality, you just made yourself more marketable. You made yourself more recruitable to the NCAA program because you're making their dollar now go further. Right. Now they can go sign 10 of those arms instead of two. Yeah. So for me, I think that's, that's kind of at least our pitch, or having been a former recruiting coordinator at the NCAA level, I give them my perspective of, of what reality is and how we still all have budgets and people have to get creative with, with their budgets and their money, and why to me, junior college is, is going to be very, very popular, you know, I think moving forward. And I mean, go look at this year, KU. KU was a top 10, you know, powerhouse all season long. They got upset by Oklahoma, who went on to win it all, but, um, you know, KU's roster was like 94% junior college transfers. Yeah. Um, you know, and four out of the eight teams in Omaha this year for the, for the World Series had over 80% of their roster was junior college transfers. Yeah. So, you know, I, I think that's where, you know, the... To me, the huge, huge benefit is You're gonna take all the same core classes your first two years here that you would at a KU, K-State, wherever it may be. Um, but number one, we're, we're gonna be a much more affordable route for the first two years, and then not only are we gonna get to coach you more, play more, develop you more, grow more, and you're gonna get three baseball seasons here that you would at, at a Division I program as far as innings, reps, all the above. Right. But the last piece is when you leave here, like you said, more than likely if, if, as we always explain, you still have to do your job, but if you do your job, y- you graduate with that associate's degree, you graduate with above a 3.5, you're gonna make yourself extremely marketable and, and wanted by, you know, a number of programs at the next level because you put yourself in a price bracket that not many are. Yeah. And, and I think the, the key to all this is how, how little an 18-year-old understands their reality when they step on a college campus for the first time. They just, they just don't understand where, where they fit in the pecking order, what it's gonna take, the resilience it's gonna take, how hard it's gonna be, how much failure they're gonna have to deal with in that first year, and they're gonna have to be okay with being, being not okay for a while, and they're gonna have to learn to kind of build their way up. So if junior college is that opportunity to get that, and I get to learn my reality, and I get to accept my reality, and I get to go, "Wow, here's my reality, but what I've learned is my reality can go hi- higher if I, if I work a little bit harder, and I listen, and I get good coaching," all of a sudden they're making better decisions of where their future is gonna be. Because they've gotten that opportunity, maybe with a little less pressure, maybe with a little less fanfare, they've gotten to kinda grow up a little bit and figure some things out, and maybe they're making a better decision. Because the stat is, over the last, I think it's the last seven years, 42% of all NCAA freshmen have quit their sport or have transferred, 42%. So if I go to a junior college where, uh, my, my chances of, of probably playing earlier is higher, would you agree with that? Yeah. Chances of getting substantial coaching right out of the gates, getting to compete at a high level like you said, getting to really learn your skill set and grow in that skill set, man, the reality of that is huge. So now if I'm a four-year coach and I've got a kid that understands the reality, is seasoned, has failed, is resilient, they're more mature like you said, gosh, that's a pretty good product to go after. And now I've got five years, where before if you're coming out of junior college, I only got two years with you, and if... You know, like for me as a basketball coach, it might take me six to 12 months to teach you how to play defense my way, and how to really understand how to play defense the way we want you to play, and then I've got one year left. Well, I'm not getting the leader I want, you know? So maybe I hold back, but if I've got you for three years and I know that year of learning I'm still gonna get two more years out of you, and you get to be that leader for two years, you get to be that big guy on campus, that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. If it's, let's say across the board we go five for five at all levels, what does that do for you? Does that change how you go about your business? How you, how you recruit? How you, how you talk to your kids about their future? What changes with that? I mean- Uh, the five for five Not drastically as much as the-- it-- the thing I'm excited for is, is them finally putting a, a limit on, on the transfer portal. Yeah. To going back to the, the one-time transfer rule, but giving young men, young women an incentive to where if you graduate with your bachelor's, and okay, they don't, they don't offer a master's program at the school or institution you're at, you get a second, um, transfer. Um- Yeah you know, I w- I won't lie, I was worried for many years with the, the transfer portal of would junior college athletics survive? Yeah. 'Cause, you know, I don't know how many NCAA coaches spun it that way, but I know had I been a Division II coach or, or whatever it may been, yeah, why go JUCO? Come here. If you do well, we can still help you go to Tennessee. You can transfer there. Um- Yeah you know, so I was more worried about the, the transfer portal maybe swallowing up or, or dissolving junior college athletics to an extent. Um, but like you mentioned, ironically enough, I mean, in the baseball realm, I wanna say the last two seasons, over 40, 40, 50% of everyone that entered the transfer portal never found another home. Right. So, you know, I, I think there's been good and bad, but with the five for five, I think that's, you know, a, a, a huge selling point to us. And like we talked on the last podcast is it's not just about athletics or about sports. It's about setting yourself, I would hope f- up for success for, for real world, real life long after baseball ends. Right. Um, you know, a- and that's what we preach or, or try to express to each and every student athlete and their parents when they, when they come here to NJC is, you know, look, look at the, the quality of an education you're gonna get for two years at the affordability or cost. And then now let us help you and you help us to where do your end. Graduate with that associate's degree. Um, every point one that GPA can go up and we graduate, we're walking ourself into, to more money. Yeah. So come get your associate's here. Let's move you on to a quality program, hopefully at a cost as close to zero as possible for your junior and senior year. And guess what? Hey, if you graduate with your bachelor's now on time, okay, go play that fifth year and start getting that master's degree paid for. Yeah. Um, you know, to me, I think it, it's if planned out or looked at not just from an athletic standpoint but f- from an educational how do I set myself up for success in the real world long term, um, it, it could be very, very beneficial for student athletes moving forward to, to go get a, not just a bachelor's degree, but a, you know, some of a master's degree or a level of higher education accomplished with some of it being paid for from athletics and Um, you know, I think it's kind of the tool, the tool that, that oftentimes goes overlooked is, you know, .1 of the .1 percenter are going to continue to get to have that opportunity to play professionally. So knowing that, how can we, we someday when we want to start a, start a life, get married, settle down, buy a house, and now have a mortgage and insurance payments and, and how much can that student loan debt drag you down to where we can maybe help set someone up to go start that life and start that family and, and be on better standing or better footing when that time comes through athletics? Coach, real quickly, let's, let's, let's say I've, I've got a seven-year-old son again and we're, we're looking JUCO, but we're comparing and contrasting. If your son is, let's say Cal's that age and you're looking at JUCOs for him How do you evaluate a JUCO? What are some of the questions families should be asking about where am I gonna get the best experience? 'Cause I, I coached at D3, NAIA, D2, and D1, and I know if you just looked at us across the board, whatever division I was at, and said, "That's that division," you'd be... You'd have no idea how different the levels of schools and the value you could get from every different school. W- w- what separates junior colleges from other junior colleges? What are, what are some things we should be looking at? It's a good question. The same, I, I usually joke around, and, and I hit parents with the question in return and say, "Okay. Well, who won the, uh, who won the College World Series four years ago, baseball? Who won the Junior College World Series three years ago in baseball?" And they're usually looking. They don't know. Right. And I'm like, "That's my point." Winning's, winning's great. Winning's terrific. Um, I love to win. Don't get me wrong. Um, you know, I, I'll play cards against Grandma, and, and darn right I'll cheat if it means I beat Grandma. She cheats too. Who do you think taught me? So- you know, um, you know, win- winning is terrific, but, but that's, to me, not what a, what a program should be judged on. Um, to an extent or a level, yes. Um, without a doubt, I think success, you know, and wins come to quality programs, but more importantly, as a parent, um, I, I think, what's your placement rate? How many of your student athletes every year are you moving on? Yeah. And then now, to what levels are you moving those players on, to where- Yeah I, I think that's the two, the two real big questions are how many and then to where. Uh, and don't get me wrong, there, that last one, there is a, a very gray area for me, um, 'cause I'll be the first to admit or tell you, we, we easily could have sent easily another 30, 40, 50 kids to, to Division I programs in the past, you know, 10 years here. Uh, but ultimately, if it's not the right fit, you know, I think this goes with the last one would be, and of how many of you placed, to what schools or what levels, but last but not least, how many of them have stayed or ended up in the transfer portal? To where- Yeah that's kind of the key three for me, because like I told you, we, we could have sent another 30 guys to, to very well-known, big Division I programs. Yeah. But if they didn't have their degree or it wasn't the right fit or they weren't going to be put into a role which they wanted or would've been conducive or supportive to their success- And maybe sending them to that, that NAI program that was going to compete to, to pitch or play in a, a national championship was a better fit, or maybe sending them to that nationally ranked division two where now instead of being the bullpen guy at, you know, a division one program, they're gonna go be a starter in the rotation at a nationally ranked division two, and school is gonna be free and a full ride at the D2, whereas it was maybe still gonna cost them 10, 15, 20 to go to that division one. You know, these are all things I think we lose sight of, and you have to keep in mind is, is, you know, we're very honest and transparent is at the end of the day, my playing career is over. It's, it's now all about your son, and it is his life, his career, and I'm not going to, you know, make our social media and Instagram page look great with all these division one posts, moving guys on if at the end of the day they don't stick, stay, play, and graduate, you know, from those programs and, and it was a bad fit. Yeah. So I think it, it comes down to, you know, placement, how many are you moving on? Yes, where are you moving them on? I'd hope to see a little bit of every level sprinkled in from division one to D2, D3, NAI, showing that you have those connections, but then last but not least, you know, how many of your guys have, have ended up in the portal or have left where, where you've sent them? You know, I, I think- Yeah that's, that's important to me. Great question. Yeah, great question to ask. Um, my concern with junior college when I'm working with kids is always about housing. It's always about the health of their life on that campus, and with junior college, we know that that's a great advantage if you have housing. Where does that fit in for you about You know, and I, I know junior college is all about local, but you're recruiting internationally, you're recruiting all over the country. Where that kid's gonna live, who's gonna have their eyes on him, what's the food gonna look like, you know, what's the resources- Yeah gonna look like? Where do those things fit in for you in terms of separating one college from another? You know, and, and once again, I give credit to, to our college and our community, where this is something I truly think benefits our program compared to maybe others, um, you know, within the state or, or other junior college programs is, you know, Sterling, Colorado, is a community of 15,000. I joke around, we have one of everything but Chick-fil-A. So it's, i- i- it's, it's a good sized community with a large hospital. And, and same, we're the largest community college, um, in the state of Colorado with athletics. So we have, we have seven dormitories, you know? Um, campus is going to look and feel like a college campus. Yeah. You're gonna have dorms, you're gonna have a full cafeteria. You're only going to be more better prepared when you leave here for real college life and surroundings and what that looks and feels like. But have that introductory, you know, phase of two years coming here, where class sizes are 20. It's still raising your hand and asking questions. Uh, you can make, from an 8:00 to 8:50 class, you can make the 10-minute walk to be in class, you know, by 9:00 on the other side of campus, and you're not rushed or, or, you know, rattled or, or stressed. So, you know, I think it's a huge importance, at least for, for all of our athletic programs here in, you know, in Sterling at NJC is, is we provide an experience, yeah, similar to CU or CSU or UNC Greeley, but just on a smaller, you know, phase. You know, it, in reality, our campus is about the same size as most RMAC, you know, college campuses. It's within a two, three block radius. We have dorms. We have all those things. But like I said, the positives of still having that small town feel, um, you know, walking into the supermarket in your, your Northeastern athletics wear and immediately being stopped and asked, you know, where you're from, and, and they know you're a part of the team. They know what team you're a part of and, and probably your coach's name and, and who the teachers on campus are. It's that small town feel. Um, but same token, it, it's large enough, big enough that you're getting the appropriate feel, and it's not just- Main Street, a Walmart, a McDonald's, and a, and a college campus, which some junior college towns are, and that's not- Yeah for everyone. So- Yeah I think that's important in recruiting. I know we're big on that, is I tell recruits all the time, "Picture Colorado and mountains and trees and rivers and snow, and crumple it up and throw it out the window and think flat, corn, smells like cows." Like- Yeah that's where we are. And, and I've, I understand not, that's not for every kid. You know? Yeah. Some kids want a bigger city life or, or things to do, you know? And just making sure that everyone's on the same page and understanding of, of what they're getting themself into, you know, I think is a, uh, is, is a real important thing. 'Cause if the kids are happy when they get here, you're gonna get the most out of them. Yeah. You know? I think that's real important. Yeah, it's reality. You're, you're giving them a big dose reality. They're living with teammates, they're living with other people. They gotta learn how to deal with conflict resolution. They get that on-campus residence experience and, and all that comes with that, so I love that. Coach, let's finish with a, a piece of advice to families that have kids at home that wanna play college, um, whether for you or any other college baseball program. What's your advice to them on how to get seen, how to be visible? Do they need to spend $10,000 on the best travel baseball club in the country? Do they need to go down to PBR and, you know, play in those big, big tournaments? Or is there a cheaper, more efficient way to get seen and get those opportunities? Yeah. I, I think this kind of, the answer to this kinda goes with your, your question of the week about the, you know, what, what do all parents and players think they know about college baseball that you wish they didn't? Um, and for me it's, it's the whole recruiting aspect here, and kinda today's society of, of club ball, travel ball, PBR events, uh, Perfect Game. Perfect Game. Y- Just the, the truth and the reality is there, there are so many players in the transfer portal, um, every single year. I mean, the portal's still open. There's still 4,000 as of this morning for- Yep for baseball alone. Yep. Um, school starts in three weeks, you know? Right. So what makes the, the 18-year-old stand out from the 7,000 kids from June, July, and August that are in there every year that also throw 90, also can hit a ball 400 feet? You know, players are, are honestly at, at a coach's disposal at the touch of our fingertips now, whether it's, you know, Twitter, X, Instagram, transfer portal, social media, you know, field level recruiting agencies. Yep. Uh, no offense, we're, we, we talked about this in our last podcast, you know? June, July, August, that's, that's family time for, for many of us Right We don't get that Yeah So I think we've seen a shift in these big perfect game and travel ball tournament events in the summer that you can pay the money, but you're gonna be very fortunate if anyone is, is there, you know- Yeah actually watching, recruiting. A- and if it is someone, more than likely just the truth and reality is it's probably the grad assistant. It's probably the, the, the young coach cutting his teeth, getting his feet wet. By no means is it the recruiting coordinator, the head coach, head assistant, more than likely. So, you know, for me, instead of spending all that money on the travel team, the, the hotels, airfare, the tournament fees and travel You know, I, I would hope have a, you have to have a dose of reality of where you think, you know, your student athlete or your young, you know, son or daughter's talent level is at. But, you know, pick out five to six to seven schools that, that truly interest them. Do your research. You know, how many-- My son, for instance, I was a catcher, so let's say my son Cal is four. Fast-forward however many years now, let's say Cal's a catcher, and he has interest in, I'm just gonna use Colorado schools, but let's say Metro UCCS, UNC Greeley, and Northeastern Junior College. So we've got a Division I, two Division IIs, a junior college. All right, jump online. Let's see what their roster looks like. To where if my son catches but they've got three sophomore catchers, that's probably not someplace we, we wanna look into. There's not a need. Um, but I would do your research, find out who has those needs or, or what programs he might be interested in, and then now reach out to that coach to where-- Now, not mom, not dad, here's your biggest piece of advice. Not mom, not dad. You know, Cal's the one who wants to play, so Cal needs to send the email. So, you know, have Cal shoot that email off to, to Coach Catchell or whoever it may be and say, "Hi, my name's Cal Catchell. You know, I'm a 2027 high school graduate. I'm six foot two, one eighty. I play these positions. Here's a couple stats from, from last season's, you know, uh, travel team or high school team. More importantly, here's a video of, of just a couple quick highlights of me swinging as well as maybe, you know, throwing some people out at second base. Um, please take a look. Here's my contact information, my cell number. I would love to come up and visit your program this fall." So to me, that's gonna go a heck of a lot further than, you know, me watching a recruiting video or going to an event and saying, "Let's say I saw Cal in downtown Denver at an event, and I liked him." Well, great. Now I've got to do all the work of finding his contact info, what school was he at, his high school, stats, numbers. You've now sent that to me. I've got his contact. I can reach out and be like, you know, "Hey, Cal, Coach Catchell here, Northeastern Junior College. Really interested. Love the video. Here's some dates we have available. We'd love to have you come up for a visit. Talk with your folks. Let me know what's What dates work best, and then for me, I like it because now I get to bring you to our campus, and in one day we get to tour you. We get to show you the dorms, the, the facilities, the clubhouse, um, the ball field, and then we're gonna work you out that afternoon. So you're also gonna get a feel, this is a two-way street. Okay. You're also gonna get a feel for what the culture's like, what a day of practice is like, what, what it truly looks like. You know, if you were to come here next fall, this is exactly what it is. Um- Reality again, right? Yeah. Reality. Come s- So- Come learn the reality to me, you, I feel you're gonna get a lot more accomplished saving the money to spend, you know, on gas to go on five trips, go see the campuses in person, get to meet the coach and, and their personality or quirks or whatever it may be in person, get to work out and see the culture, the, the practice atmosphere, what it actually truly is with your own eyeballs in person. And to me, I think that goes a much further way than, than, like I said, spending thousands of dollars hoping to get seen, you know, at an event in, in Florida when there's, let's be honest, six, six diamonds, you know, six fields, five fields going on, and, and, you know, th- that, that means there's 10, 12 teams playing at once, and you're just hoping you're gonna stick out. Um, so to me, I, I, I f- that's the advice we give families. Um- Love it and then same as a coach. I like it much more as well, 'cause even if I do see you at that, that event in Florida or Georgia or Denver, wherever it may be, I'm still going to want that, that in-person visit to make sure, A, we're not, we're not hiding anything, that we're in Cow Town, USA- Yep and that you're okay with the size of the town and community, but B, I want that opportunity to, to work you out or, or, you know, have you practice with the group, throw that bullpen, or take those swings, um, 'cause I also wanna get a feel for your personality. I wanna get a feel for, for your level of being coachable. Um, you know, this is a trick that a, a longtime coach once taught me, but every recruit I have on campus, you know, he could be 6'4", throwing 94 with a great slider and a plus changeup, uh, we're still gonna, "Hey, how do you throw that changeup? Let me see that. Well, how about we try this?" Yeah. I just wanna immediately see is that, and the change-up might be fine, but the whole point here is, is he open to being coached? Yeah. Or am I gonna be met with, "Well, my club coach tells me that we throw it this way," or, or, "I'm a... I, I've always done it..." 'Cause if he's not willing or open to being coached, then why are we bringing him here? That's right. So- There's another place for you down the road. I'll make a- Yeah you know, I'll make a phone call for you. Good luck. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So to me, that's, that's kinda... You know, at the end of the day, you're, you're ultimately gonna end up at the same spot. Why not start there? Right. And, and reach out to those programs and go, go see it with your own eyes. G- get, get there in person. Um, then I, I think you're gonna get a lot more out of your money for... and get to see five or six of those schools, you know, along the way. I'm abusing your time, but I, I wanna hear one more opinion from you. You talked about the 4,000 kids that are still in the portal. Is there one big reason? Is there one bad decision, one bad choice these kids are making that the reason they're in the portal? Or it, and it is, you know, did it happen two years ago where they made a bad choice in where they went 'cause they didn't do the research? What's the reason all these kids are in the portal? Or is it money? You know, I hate that that's the answer. No, it, yeah. You know? It's, you know, the, it's all of the above. To me, I think, um Not necessarily a, a truthful, honest dose of reality or, or being able to come to terms with reality. There's a lot of these kids that, "I, I, I'm a Division I player. I'm an NCAA player." You know, "I, I, I'm gonna play at this level," when, you know, that, that's just the firm reality of, well, no offense, you were at that Division I last year. You threw seven innings. Your K to walk ratio was one to one and, and yeah, there's plenty of kids that, that throw 92 to 94 in today's world, but you have to- Yeah throw strikes. So I think there's a lot of that, um, where it's the, they, they bracket themself into a, a level or a category that they're just not in, and, and they can't come to terms of, of seeing that. Um, I think money- And it's not that that's their ending reality, it's just you haven't put the work in, you haven't been coached, you haven't allowed yourself to be coached to maybe become the better player, and you gotta, you gotta, you gotta give the coach some time to develop you too. Well, and, and same- Right? we've touched about the, the 34-man roster limit at Division I. I mean, just the, the, the roster sizes are so restricted now, if you fail, it might be a month before you see the mound again. Um- Yeah it's just how it is. A- and- Yeah especially at that realm now with NIL and budgets and boosters and funding and winning, that, that coach- Yeah has to win. There's no more room for, for growth and development. So it doesn't mean you're not a Division I player Just maybe not right now. To where maybe come back to that junior college and, and what you need is maybe that 50 to 70 innings of actual, you know- Yeah growth, opportunity, experience, failure, success. You know, ironing out the kinks, and then now you are the polished product that when you go back to that level, isn't at the tail end of that bullpen that when you fail, opportunities are limited. Now when you go back, maybe you are that polished guy that's, that's slotting in at the top of the rotation, or midweek starts, or long relief, a- and you're seeing the bulk innings. You're seeing the bulk opportunity. So I think that's a little bit of it. Yes, finances as always, you know, the cost of milk, the cost of gas, the cost of airfare, the cost of everything's gone up nowadays, so. Yeah. You know, I do think it's, it's, you know, a little bit of the financial what can someone afford, but I, I... It's a double-edged sword. That's where there are so many players looking for a home. I think college programs, now that the portal has been around long enough, have also understood, you know, it, it's kind of the there, there's plenty of you out there. I can go find you on every street corner at the moment, so. Right. You know, I don't think there's a ton of programs saving or banking a lot of money for the portal. You know, maybe yes for a specific need or two, and then after that, it's the kind of the, the take it or leave it, 'cause you don't hold any of the, the, the cards to be in control here. Um, so you know, the portal's definitely an interesting, interesting world, and it's going to have lasting effects on, on high school players too. I think we've seen recruiting change so much in the- Yeah past seven years. That's, I think the other understanding thing parents have to understand of a high school student athlete is don't panic. Relax. Um, you know, I think the recruiting period or when players commit and sign has been pushed back so drastically- Gotcha compared to seven years ago because- Oh, crazy of the transfer portal. Yeah. So you might be a very quality high school player. Just understand that, you know, no offense, outfielders, there's three on every team. You know, they, they're not signing anytime soon. They're always usually the last ones off the board. And- Yeah and, you know, catchers, shortstops are usually first with pitching, and then after that, there's kind of everybody else. And with now the mid-year transfer portal at Christmas, the one in May, you know, just high school parents understand if your son isn't committed You know, in August, September of his senior year, going into his senior year, it's okay. That's, that's kind of what today's timeframe more so is looking like. And I would not be surprised if five years from now, high school kids may or may not sign until the high school season ends in June. Right. To where it's just everything's getting, you know, pushed further and further back and, and that's just the, the, the world we currently live in. And, and I think it's also a good reminder though for maybe those that don't understand or know how it all is working right now. Well, what's nice is that 13 and 14-year-old doesn't have to be in such a hurry anymore. You know? It used to be if you wanted to play Division I, you better be seen by the end of your sophomore year or you weren't gonna play Division I, and you weren't gonna get that scholarship. Now, the world's flipped on its head. You can grow up, you can be patient, you can, you can be 16 years old and almost 17 and still have a really good chance to play at just about every level. So coach- Yeah thank you so much for your time. You are a rock star coach. I'm so thankful that this is the career you chose, 'cause you're the right guy for the job, and I'm even more impressed with you as a man and a dad and a husband, and, uh, just really thankful for you and the time you gave me today. No, thank you for everything. Thank you for having us on. I hope this conversation gave you a better understanding of just how valuable the junior college path can be, and why recruiting is about so much more than just simply chasing a level of play. Do your research, know your reality, find the right fit, and make decisions that set you up for success well beyond your playing career. Thanks again to Coach Andrew Catchell for sharing his perspective and experience, and man, do I love that guy. So happy he's in my life, and so happy he's leading young men. Until next time, stay focused on what you can control, stay humble, and keep chasing significance