Episode #188: Ryan Brownlee

⚾ Ryan Brownlee | Tough Love, Trust & the Art of Coaching 

In Episode 188 of the Significant Coaching Podcast, Matt Rogers sits down with Ryan Brownlee, Assistant Executive Director of the American Baseball Coaches Association (ABCA), former Division I head coach and recruiting coordinator, and host of the ABCA Podcast.

Ryan brings more than two decades of Division I coaching experience to a wide-ranging conversation about what coaching looks like today—and where it needs to go next.

Matt and Ryan discuss mental health and performance, authenticity, tough love, connecting with today's athletes, rest and recovery, evaluating and developing coaches, the relationship between athletic directors and head coaches, and why there is no single blueprint for building a successful program.

They also dive into the changing landscape of college baseball, including NIL, the transfer portal, analytics, resources and why the best coaches still find ways to maximize the people in their locker room.

Ryan also explains why one characteristic continues to matter regardless of how much sports change: Do you genuinely care about the people you coach?

A conversation about baseball—but even more about coaching, leadership, relationships and the responsibility that comes with putting yourself in front of young people.

Episode 188 | The Significant Coaching Podcast with Matt Rogers

Significant Recruiting Resources — Take the guesswork out of college recruiting with Significant Recruiting: The Playbook for Prospective College Athletes, sport-specific Recruit’s Journals, and the Significant Recruiting Launchpad. Practical tools to help families research schools, stay organized, and build a smarter recruiting strategy. Learn more at CoachMattRogers.com.

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What really makes a great coach? Is it winning, recruiting, player development or is it something much simpler? The ability to connect with people, care about them, and get them to believe in something bigger than themselves. That's our big question today, and my guest has spent most of his life studying it from just about every angle. Ryan Brownlee is the Assistant Executive Director of the American Baseball Coaches Association, where he also hosts the ABCA podcast and works with coaches throughout the game. Before joining the ABCA, Ryan spent more than two decades coaching Division I baseball, including stops at Evansville, James Madison, and Iowa, before serving seven seasons as the head coach at Western Illinois. At Iowa, he also served as recruiting coordinator, and 32 players he recruited or coached went on to be selected in the Major League Baseball draft. Today, Ryan and the staff at the American Baseball Coaches Association are doing incredible work educating, connecting, and developing coaches at every level of the game. The ABCA now serves more than 15,000 coaches across all 50 states and 41 countries, and this conversation goes well beyond baseball. We talk about mental health, authenticity, tough love, developing players, evaluating coaches, the relationship between coaches and athletic directors, and ultimately, what great coaching should really look like. I'm Matt Rogers, and this is Ryan Brownlee on the Significant Coaching Podcast. Coach Brownlee, so great to see you. I've been watching your Instagram, and I love your focus on mental health. I love the stretching and those early morning exercises to get your brain right. 'Cause I was one of those players, and I, I was one of those coaches, and I'm one of those middle-aged men that I, I probably should've been diagnosed with ADHD 30 years ago. I have self-doubt, I have issues with my body, I have issues with how I think. I got memory issues. Tell me a little bit about where this started with you and why you're doing some of this on Instagram. Yeah, and we talked about that pre-call. I have friends that have struggled with mental health, and these are things that I've picked up over time. It's not things that you just fall into, but I do feel like they're daily practices that I do that help me mentally because I, I do get concerned. I've had multiple friends kill themselves over the last four or five years that were my age or around the same age, and where you just feel like people are okay. So I just don't ever wanna take that, that chance with people anymore. So, and that, that'd been sitting in my video library for a long time. I just never put it out. I filmed it at the NAIA World Series, and I was like, "You know what? I'm just gonna put this out. Let people..." You know, I think as a creator, like- Yeah and not that I was ever worried about it, but I just put it out there, and we were talking pre-call. I played for a really hard high school coach. Yep. Who coached Don Mattingly. Um, and I just didn't handle Coach Merkel well my junior year of high school. But then that summer, I found the mental aspects of baseball. Our trainer actually brought these audio cassette tapes to school that fall that you would record, and it was progressive muscle relaxation techniques. And so that's how I kind of started with it, and we talked about it pre-call, where in that audio, it basically was a deep breath in- Inhale, exhale, and release and relax. So internally you said release, relax. And so from my senior year of high school, we won a state championship. We're 36 and two all the way through college. And then professionally before I stepped in the box, it was deep breath, release, relax, and then I would get in and, um, hitting's extremely hard. But that was a way more comfortable place for me to be in the batter's box than it was defensively. Yeah. Um, I wish I would've had more routines defensively and, and as a coach we developed some defensive routines too, where it was deep breath in and then internally would say, "Hit it to me." Right. Um, and that was something I developed over time to keep them aggressive. 'Cause you're gonna make errors defensively. And so I was trying to, as a coach, allow them to be comfortable in the box, but then also comfortable playing defense too. So that's just how it started. And then I did research on it for my undergrad. I did research for my master's on it, uh, with the, with that audio, with baseball, soccer, softball. Yeah. Uh, and we tracked results. So, you know, we took an inventory, so they did a self-image inventory before they did the protocol, and then we did the protocol, and then we tracked their on-field stats. And so their self-image was better, uh, because of the protocol. And then their performance actually was, was better. So I just felt like it was something if, if they feel better about themselves and they're also producing on the field, then I felt like you had something and there was zero research coming out at that point. Yeah. Um, you know, in the, the late '90s Early 2000s, you could not find baseball research on any of that. You had track, some track and field, some tennis, some golf, but really not much at all, so I was kinda starting from scratch on all that. But I carried that through from my time coaching at Evansville, James Madison, Iowa, and Western Illinois. Now, that audio cassette tape turned into a CD Perfect which then turned into an MP3, which I still have- Right and I, I still send- Good I, I still deal with people that, that deal with performance anxiety. Not a lot, but, uh, that's one of the first places I start to, is with that, that MP3 to, to just get them in some sort of routine at night. Uh, I thought the benefit of that, too, is it helped our players fall asleep, and I did, too. Like, I, I still listen to audios before I go to bed. We're all gonna have those racing thoughts before we get to sleep- Right so I use Yoga Nidra now. I got that from Andrew Huberman, the Huberman lab. So I, I have a Yoga Nidra audio that I listen to, and that will get me centered in and get rid of some of those racing thoughts that you're gonna have. And I do trans- And I hope- I do transcendental meditation in the morning, too. Right. That's great. I've been very vocal about that, so that's the first thing I do when I wake up in the morning. I sit for 10 to 15 minutes. I have a mantra. Uh, and then by that time I will get in my car and I'll go work out. Um, so it's just daily habits. I got- Yeah. And I- You know, the more you're around this, it's- Yep it's developing those daily habits. With you. And they are real hard in the beginning, and especially with sitting with the type of meditation that I do, there is a lot of quiet time, and they call it monkey chatter. So a- as an American, like, that's gonna be really hard for you to sit for the first time because you've never done it because that monkey chatter is just gonna be screaming. You know, if- Yeah if anybody's seen those chimpanzees that are going nuts in the, in the jungle, that's really what goes on because you're gonna- Right have on average 40,000 thoughts a day. Isn't that crazy? And you can't get that to turn off. Like, that's asking, like, your heart to stop beating. But the more you add in a practice, like when I sit now, because I've been doing it for so long, eight years now I've been doing it every day, it is clear in the mornings when I finally get to my mantra. But I learned TM from a former player. Uh, and the EFT stuff that's on that video, the tapping, that helps people get rid of the yips. Really? So yeah. You know, the, um- Fantastic yeah, yeah. So they're called emotional freedom techniques, and so if, if you just Google EFT tapping, um, you'll be able to find some sort of it, or I can send my video out. Um, but there's also some cross... You know, when- Yeah when people get the yips, there's a lot of science to this. When people get the yips, they start thinking on the wrong side of their brain. There's... You have an analytis- analytic side and then an imagination side, and where, where good performance and flow state, that lives on the imagination side. But when people get crossed, could- it could be an injury. You know, there's a variety of reasons why people get yippy. It could be an injury that they've battled and, and now their mechanics get off, or it's a ruminating thought. They make a mistake, and then they just ruminate on that thought. Those are daily maintenance programs to keep people away from ruminating- Right and get those, those hemispheres still running right and those neural pathways. 'Cause once the neural pathways get sideways, that's where we're gonna get into issues, and it's hard to come back from, from that. O- once your brain is starting to try to create neural pathways from something you've done for a million years, it's really hard, and that's why people feel uncomfortable. And, and there's some debilitating thoughts to that, 'cause now your brain is sending a message to your body that you're not safe anymore. Right. You know, and that's, that's really what it is. Your body's sending a message to your brain that you're, you're unsafe. And so when people get the yips, they do really feel like they're dying, 'cause their brain is telling them they're, they're not safe anymore. Um, and it happens with mental health. That's not just a performance thing. That's a daily life thing for, for people that get sideways with their mental health. So these are just daily maintenance plans to keep, keep the pathways running right. I, I love it, man the short, the short version of that. There's a long version, but that's the short. I, I hope, I hope you do so much more of that on your Instagram. I, I, I need that stuff. And you're starting to see it, I think, in baseball and golf more than anywhere else, where you'll see golfers with the tapping. You'll, you- Well, s- soccer players go through it with- Yeah with penalty kicks. Yes. Golfers go through it with putting. Uh, there's a variety. In any sport, uh, you know, free throw shooters with basketball, um, you know, there- there's, you, you're gonna deal with it in, in any sport. Well, you look at, you look at what Dickey Thon went through. You look at what Chuck Knoblauch- Chuck Knoblauch went through. Mackey Sasser. And, and I've been... You know, I'm a Cubs fan, so I've been... What broke my heart maybe six years ago, five, six years ago, is Albert Almora hit a little girl on a foul ball before they put the nets up, and it was a big reason they put the nets up in Major League stadiums. And it ruined his career. He just couldn't get past the damage he did to that little girl. And, and now every time you step to the plate, that's all you can think about. I mean, how, how do you handle a 100 mile an hour fastball when you're thinking about, "I, I have the ability to hurt somebody," right? EDMR is another. Um, I've had friends, a friend of mine, um, has a foundation now called Walking Tall. He was in the Highland Park park shooting. But EMDR is, is rapid eye movement. Yeah. So basically it's a dot that goes back and forward. That is a way to actually release trauma, too, and- Okay for traumatic events, for anybody that's going through that, that's another way to, to release traumatic events. Um, the, the brain is a magical thing, but it is also extremely tough when it gets sideways. Like, it, it could be your, your biggest- Oh, gosh your biggest benefit, but it also could be your biggest detriment with the brain. It's amazing. Because it is a fascinating thing, and we still are doing so much research on, on all of that now, that we're gonna find out a lot more here in the next 10, 20 years. I love it. It's gonna be really interesting. Keep, keep, keep that stuff coming. Any, if any- Yeah if you're not following, uh, Ryan on Instagram, go to coachb_abca. It's great stuff. Um, it, it- And I don't post a ton. Um- But still, I mean, when you post, it's prime you know, I'm, I'm in the Rick Rubin camp. Yeah. Um, if something speaks to me I will, I will post. Yeah. But I'm not gonna post just to post, and I'm gonna post stuff that I feel like has value to, to the community as a whole. Um, I know everybody does it different, but that's just... I don't filter anything either, so that video, like, that's unfiltered. That's me out of bed. Yeah. I didn't... I, I've got bedhead in that video. Like, it's unfiltered. 'Cause again, I just, I, I feel like that where we, that we've gotten crossways in society is because everything's filtered now. Yep. Um, you try to tell kids that now, like s- social media is not a real place. I told this to somebody. Like, it, it's fake. Like, social media's fake. I, I tell people to treat social media like you're watching a soap opera Anything you see on Twitter, X, Instagram, TikTok, treat it like you're watching a soap opera because that's probably what it is. Exactly. It's like professional wrestling. There's no authenticity. That's what I love about your stuff. It's not, and that's okay, but- Your stuff is so authentic I, I, I'm gonna speak from the heart. I've always been that way. I, you know, here's what it is, here's what it looks like, and that's, I'm just staying my true, authentic self with that stuff. I'm gonna transition a little bit. I think we're gonna come back- Yeah to what we've been talking about. All good. I wanna talk about Tony Vitello a little bit. Yeah. And w- w- because there was, there was so much criticism from all different directions when the Giants hired Tony from, from Tennessee. Many people considered him the top coach in the country, World Se- you know, College World Series, just built a powerhouse. And now he goes to be the manager of the San Francisco Giants, and they've struggled. They struggled mightily. I'd like your thoughts on it because, uh, he's, he was such a good teacher, and he still is. And he, you know, uh, he, he wanted to do things a little differently and try things and bring some of those college things with him. And I, I just read an article today about him losing the clubhouse, and I wanted to get your thoughts on it. How much of that is the money that these guys are making, the age difference? You know, I, I think there's players from four different countries on the Giants roster right now, you know, so there's, there's the language barrier and all that. Talk to me a little bit about what you've seen with that and how you feel about that college coach going to the pros. Okay. I, I take a lot of notes, so like s- quotes will speak to me, but one of my favorite quotes, Jeff Immelt was about to get fired at IBM, he was the CEO. Yeah. His quote was, "Every job looks easy unli- unless you're the one doing it." Every job looks easy if, if you're not the one doing it. And so I've known Tony for a long time. Unbelievable recruiter, unbelievable coach. By the way, in the off-season, he flew to all of their foreign players to meet with them. It wasn't like he was sitting in San Francisco or Knoxville. He flew, which is no other I, I don't think any other big league manager have ever done that. I've never heard of that. He flew to meet with their players in the off-season. Oh, by the way, he's down in Arizona. I'm speaking at the Ohio Clinic. Yeah. He flew to the Ohio Clinic, which he didn't need to do. He spoke at the Ohio Clinic this year. He's about to be the manager of the Well, he is the manager of the Giants. That's the, the small things that people don't see from the outside that, that those of us in the baseball community that know him on a personal level, but that's also part of taking the job too. And Tony, he's got thick enough skin. I, I don't, I'm not worried about Tony at all. Like, he's got thick enough skin. But there is an adjustment period to every job. Every job any of us have ever taken, there's going to be an adjustment period. Now, you're in the spotlight with that, so your adjustment period, everybody and their brother gets to see your adjustment period. Like those of us that coached at schools that nobody really paid attention to, you're gonna be fine because even if you make mistakes, so. But that, that's part of the learning curve of, of taking a, a job is, is you're going to make mistakes. It's just on a very s- it's a, it's a large stage now. But he's tough enough to handle all that. Um- But it's different. Like, I think those of us that have coached at different levels know that every level takes something different. So, you know- Yeah what, what got you here isn't gonna get you there, so. But that's with any new job that you take. Like, you're gonna have to find ways to be successful in, in that job that maybe things that you did in the past aren't gonna work for you. Um- Right but I think there's a ton of really good examples of college guys that have been successful, that Pat Murphy. How come nobody talks about Pat Murphy? Seriously. He didn't really have a lot of experience. I mean, he had minor league experience, but he's been a really good big league manager. But I'm sure Murph wasn't great at it in the beginning. Yeah. We have a lot of examples of assistant coaches at the big leagues l- level now that are thriving. Right. Uh, Derek Johnson's one of the best pitching coaches in the big leagues. He had no pro experience before he left Vanderbilt. Uh, Spencer Allen, like, he's with the Brewers. He's on the Brewers staff now. Like, there, there's a ton. Yeah. Um, so I, I He As long as they give him enough time, um, I think he's gonna do great. I think so, too. I, I, I, I want to hear Tony speak in about five years, you know? Yeah, and he's great. Like- If he, if he gets a five-year track with the Giants, I think, I think he's gonna- Good podcast recording after Tennessee won the national championship if anyone wants to listen to a good podcast. Yeah. 'Cause he's Uh, Tony's I know on the outside, like, he looks like a He's very humble. He's very self-effacing. You get him one-on-one, he's a great conversation. Um, so I don't know if that completely answered your question, but- No, it's great. It was a good insight. We can do that part of it is, like, people need to back off 'cause good luck to any of you trying to big, uh, big league manager. Good luck. I, I- Especially with the landscape of how it is now. Um, but that, that's what you sign up for, too. Like, okay, yeah, so what, they make a lot of money. They should make a lot of money. I don't think the players make enough money. Yeah. The, the owners make a lot of money. Um, uh, again, that, that's part of managing your organization is, okay, th- that's Everybody has to deal with that. They all make a lot of money, so you still have to be able to manage people. And, and whatever organization or, or walk of life you're in, it still goes into pouring into your people. Yeah. 'Cause if you do that, at the end of the day, at the end of the day, it may not work out, but you can still look yourself in the mirror And my dad was a longtime coach. He's- before I got into coaching, I said, "Dad, give me some advice." And one of the first things he taught, he said, "If they can have your job, it's not worth having." That's right. That's so clever. And what he was saying is be yourself. Yep. Because if you coach long enough, you're probably going to get fired. Like, I was lucky I didn't. I coached for 22 years, I never got fired. Yeah. But that was be- I think because I was staying true to myself and being- Yeah my true, authentic self. I wasn't trying to be somebody I wasn't. Yeah. Even, even when you felt like maybe I should tweak a little bit here, but it's like, then it's like, no, I still... At the end of the day, in 50 years, I have to be able to look myself in the mirror and know that I did the best job that I can do, regardless of the outside noise or any of the BS that's out there. Because it, if you listen to what the outside people try to tell you, it's not going to be right, and it won't be good for you because they're not in your situation. And, and nobody's in a clubhouse. You've been in enough locker rooms. Yep. You have to tell everybody, like, "This is, the people that matter are the people in this room." That's right. Anybody outside this room does not matter. That's right. The media doesn't matter. What they say on the blogs or social media, none of that matters. All that matters is the people that are in this room because they're the ones that are in the locker room with each other, in the weight room working out with each other, at practice, traveling together. Nobody else, so anybody else's opinion outside of this room does not matter And with social media right now, i- if you're not talking about that every day in your locker room, I mean, you, you have to pound it in these kids' head. It doesn't matter if they're a 23-year-old college player or a 15-year-old high school player. It's understanding that it doesn't matter what your classmates say, it doesn't matter what you're hearing on the blogs and in the, in, in the social media. What we do in here is the only thing that matters, 'cause this is our truth, and nobody knows our truth. But you also ha- you have to explain to the players, too, is like if you're going to be on there, you have to take the... If you take the praise, then you have to take the criticism, too. That's right. Like, you can't have it both ways. You can't be like, "Okay, I'm gonna take all this, this validation in from external things and people, and they're saying really good things about me, and then I'm gonna feel good about myself while I have a, a poor performance, and now people are... Well, and then..." You can't. Like, you're better off staying off. I, I know branding is important for athletes now, which is cool, but don't read the comments. That's right. Again, that's a, that's a Rick Rubin thing. He, he interviewed André 3000, who... I'm a huge music fan. Yeah. Uh, movies. André 3000 was in OutKast, and André 3000 I think is at... For the time, OutKast was probably one of the re- best rap duos of all time. But André 3000 was talking about how he can't put music out. He put a flute album out a while ago, but he was like, "I don't put rap music out, 'cause I don't think it's any good." And Rick Rubin's thing has always been the audience comes last. Yeah. The audience comes last. Yeah. Especially if you're gonna be a creator. Uh, put, put something out that you love, that speaks from the heart, and I think as an athlete, you have to do that, too. As a coach, you have to do that, too. Like, find your why, why you're in it, and stay with those core values of why you're in it, why you do it, and hopefully that is to positively impact the people around you. And if you're doing that on a daily basis, uh, regardless of the outcomes, uh, if you win a bunch of games or you lose a bunch of games, it doesn't matter regardless of the outcomes. Because again, you can look yourself in the mirror that- Yeah you did the best job that you could possibly do. I, I 100% agree, and that authenticity is really the key to coaching. And I've been doing so much coaching of the coaches lately. I was just out in Washington with a group of coaches, and one of the things I told them is I go, you look at the great coaches in the history of sport. You look at a guy like Lombardi with the Packers. I go, he, he started out as a basketball coach. John Wooden started out as a baseball coach. You know, the great coaches, you can take a Tony Vitello and you can drop him anywhere on the planet with any- anybody that, whether they've ever seen a baseball before or not, and he's gonna teach them. But I, I think Tony's the type, and, and these great coaches, and we know who they are, we know who the great coaches are, you can put them on a field hockey field. You can put them in a water polo pool, and they might not know the sport rules, but it won't be long before those kids are motivated. They're in great shape. They're strong. They're mentally healthy, right? And that, and that's what I love about coaching, is that if you really love coaching, it really doesn't matter what you're coaching. No. It's, it's a passion, right? And it is. It still goes back to connecting with human beings. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Good leaders can connect with humans on some level. I'm interested- And there are a million different ways to do it I, I totally agree. I totally agree. You talk to so many great coaches every day, uh, with, with your work with the ABCA and your podcast. What are some of the best coaches in the country doing right now that maybe is a little bit different than the way we did it 10 years ago or 20 years ago? It's funny 'cause I, I interview... I'm going through the as- as- assistant coaches of the year and, and head coaches of the year podcast right now. Yeah. And I do those every year, but every level we have, you know, if it's from high school, JUCO, D3, D2, D1, the... If you, you show me a program that's a- all bought in on analytics and data-driven program that won a national championship, I will show you a, a program that does none of that that just won a, a championship. That's right. And that's the, the beauty of baseball is because I'll show you a hitting coach that has success with telling guys to hit the ball in the air. I'll show you a hitting coach that tell, is having success with telling guys to hit the ball on the ground. Yep. Like, and so that's the art of coaching of all of it is there's no one blueprint to all of this, because everybody's situations are different. Just like resources, everybody talks about NIL right now, transfer portal. There were teams that spent the most amount of money in the transfer portal last year that didn't even make the regionals. Uh, spending money is not a guarantee that you're gonna win. It, it's again, how you can maximize the, the human beings that you have, have in your locker room. Right. Like, and so the good programs are still finding ways to maximize for their players in that locker room and getting them to believe. Um, the cool thing with the College World Series is the last three, four years, we've had a team that's never made it before. We had Troy last year. We had Murray State the year before. We had Oral Roberts the year before that. Yeah. And so for, for all the bellyaching of people saying that, that NIL or transfer portal is going to ruin sports, I don't see it because, especially in baseball now, I think. But look at it, and IU won the football championship last year. Yep. IU won the national championship last year. Yep. Um, again, that has to do with Cignetti more than anything, and he's rough. Like, he's a throwback. Yeah. Like, he's a no bones. So again, you can still be tough on people. Um, I think that the, that's the thing we've lost a little bit. You can still be hard on players. I think you have to develop a relationship with them first now. You know, that was the thing I think we all saw later on. You know, twel- 2019 was my last spring coaching. You have to get them bought in before you start really digging in on them. Yeah. But once you get them bought in, then you can, you can do the old stuff. Well- Again, you can't abuse people. Like, I'm not saying, like, you can't abuse, but I, I would like to be in those film meetings with Cignetti, with those guys. Me too. I guarantee you there's some... They're coming out with some hurt feelings, but that's also, you know, you talked about Lombardi. Uh, tough love's a form of love for me too. Right. And, and one of my favorite quotes, um, from the book, the, uh- The Servant, another great book, has a Lombardi quote in there about loving the people in your organization, whi- which none of us would've ever thought Lombardi would've talked about love, but his direct quote is talking about loving the pe- people in your organization. Yeah. So it still comes from a place of love, but tough love is still a form of love because that, uh, that means the person actually does care about you and wants to see what's, see you do well. And yes, that comes with being honest with you at times that m- you may not always like what comes out of their mouths How, how much of this... Y- you talk about Cignetti, and, and he's, he's a throwback, but he's also saying, "We're only gonna practice this amount of time every week. We're, we're... My coaches are only gonna be in the office this amount of time every week. These, these kids have to have a life. They have to be off the football field. They have to be going to class. My coaches have to go see their families. They gotta go to the Little League games and the concerts." And, you know, the, you know, so he's doing those things with love. But how important is it to be a really great coach in terms of your skill set? Where does evaluation and teaching come into that? It's all of it. Don't you think? It's all, it's all, it's all-encompassing. It doesn't matter about NFL, right? But, but, but the fact... But again, you know, with Cignetti, there's some science to that now with, with brain function. You have to, you ha- uh, the stress is good, but you have to be able to release from that stress. And so recovery is, is important. If you're not allowing athletes to recover, s- this is where sleep comes into play. So throughout the day, whatever you're doing, you set these markers in your brain to learn. If you're not getting enough rest and sleep, then those markers go away, so you basically wasted an entire day. Yeah. And so the smart ones are paying attention to rest and recovery now because you have to get rest to al- allow those learning markers to set, because if you don't, you basically just shouldn't have done anything that day. So they're smart enough to adjust that. Yes, be hard on people, but the recovery part is just as important as that, the activity part now, if you want them to learn on a database, day-to-day basis. Well, that's- So it's called the glymphatic system. I know I'm getting science-y here, but it's called the glymphatic system. No, I love it. It's, it, so it's, it, I think people need to understand, especially the parents- It's called the glymphatic, so look up glymphatic system. So that's, that's the fluid that cleans your brain while you're sleeping. Uh, they've linked it to Parkinson's and to Alzheimer's. So the plaque for people that gets Al- Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, uh, that plaque basically doesn't get washed away in their brain. It's basically like a heart attack for the, for the brain with the plaque, is what it is. So- I, I gotta dive into that you have to have proper deep sleep- Yeah in order for the glymphatic system to work in your brain. So, but yeah, he's figured that part out. And, you know, I think the, the, the neat thing for me is you interact with really successful coaches at every level. I think coaches are really resourceful and find a way to maximize the resources that they have within their program. I can show you a underfunded program that won a national championship last year. I can show you a fully funded program that won a national championship last year. And then I can show you, again, same thing. I can show you ones that overpaid and had terrible years, and then I can show you ones that don't have resources that had terrible years. So again, it, uh, a- and that's part of not buying into the excuses of, "Woe is me, this is where we're at." Yeah. Um, I've been at every level at Division I, schools that didn't have resources, school that had resources. I felt just as good about the places that I was at that didn't have resources, 'cause honestly, it fe- it, it meant more when we were successful because I knew we didn't have as much as everybody else. I'm, I'm curious what you think about this. I've, I've been, I'm doing a lot of consulting on college campuses this last year, and I, when I, when I talk to athletic directors, when I talk to presidents I, I'm asking them, how are you evaluating your candidates when you're hiring? I go, "What, what are the questions you're asking and what are you looking for? Because y- you've got this merry-go-round where you're hiring a new coach every three years, you're firing them, they're leaving 'cause they're not happy, they're not winning. How are..." So I go, "Let's talk about three things. Are you looking for a teacher, number one? Are you looking for somebody that will teach the fundamentals, actually teach the game, right? Are you looking for somebody that's an evaluator, that knows how to evaluate, that can look at a Nico Horner or a Brian Terang and go, 'Okay, this guy isn't very big, but man, the fundamentals are there and he does everything right and he's a great locker room person.' And, and then are they curious? Like, like you are. You know, I, I, I wanna learn, I wanna get better. I'm, I'm not happy with my situation. What are you seeing in terms of coaches and how important those three things are, and am I missing something? Is there something else we need to be evaluating before we put somebody in front of these kids?" Uh, I've never been athletic director, so I... You know, that's hard for me. But from the outside- But you've applied for a lot of jobs. I have. You know the process. And I got turned down for a lot, too. Yeah. Which, you know, at the time, that... We talk about fail forward moments on the podcast, that was one of mine, was not getting the, a Kansas State job 'cause I botched up a, a phone interview. But I think ADs honestly need to be more honest too with coaches in this process. Like, we can talk about all those things, but at the end of the day, if it's still just gonna be on my results, then you need to be honest with me on that. That's right. Because then we're gonna, we're gonna approach this thing much differently. And, and that's where you have to be honest as an athletic director, is like, what is your vision? And I think this is where coaches, if you're really gonna get an opportunity to, to get hired, you have to ask those questions of your athletic director, of like, don't BS me on this. Like, where... What are your expectations, and where should we be in three years if, if you feel like this is gonna be a successful venture for between the two of us, what do you feel like this needs to look like in three years? But then as an athletic director, you also have to make sure those resources match your expectations, too. Yep. And at the end of the day, if you're asking a team in your con- And let's just go on. I think you just go off your conference If you have 10 teams in your conference and that sport program is funded at 10 out of 10 teams, then what are you really saying what your expectations are? Yeah. Now, if you're funding that, that team in the top three of your conference, then yes, that's a different conversation to have. But I don't think ADs are honest with themselves, 'cause co- yes, coaching matters and hiring the right person matters, but you also have to give them the resources to be successful, too. But that, that's a interview conversation that you need to have, and that's part of the trust process. If, if you look at, at any successful coach at any sport that we have at college, they have a good r- at least a fairly decent relationship with their athletic director. Yeah. And that's like a marriage. No matter what anybody wants to talk about, your, your head coach-AD relationship is like being in a marriage, and they are difficult at times, but they're very rewarding at times. And, and I think we have to view it that way, that, okay, this is a marriage between the head coach and the athletic director. I, I think so many athletic directors, uh, 'cause I've talked to so many of them, I think they're afraid to get into that marriage with their coaches because, okay, I just talked to an AD the other day. She never coached. She was an athletic trainer. She's fantastic. She's one of the best ADs in the country, but it's because she cares about that marriage. She's not afraid to coach her coaches. She doesn't see them that they're in a silo, you know, they're on an island by themselves. And she's not afraid to sit down and go, "Okay, let's talk about your strategies. How are you gonna recruit? What's your, what's your process? How are you gonna hang up the phone? How are you not gonna be the guy with your cell phone on the kitchen table at night when you're eating dinner? How are you gonna be healthy?" You know, so I, for me- But you also have to have thick skin in that process, too. You do. So, so if you're doing it, again, this is where it goes to being able to look yourself in the mirror. If you're an athletic director that does everything right, you hire the right person and then they leave and take another job, you know, one, I think you have to be, you know, it, it, it still goes back to gratitude. Like, "Hey, I hired the ni- the right person. They had success. They moved on to another job." Yep. You know, be grateful for the time that you had them. But then if, if you're competitive at all, you know you're probably going to hire somebody just as good or better behind them. That's right. And that's where you have to reframe it. Yeah, it stinks if you're losing people. You gotta rehire people. But that's where you have to have some com- competitiveness and some confidence in yourself that as an athletic director, it's like, "I'm gonna hire somebody just as good or better behind them." Yeah. Like, I d- I already just did it. We hired somebody great. I'm gonna turn around and go do that again. Yeah. I, I, you talked about that, the three years. The, you know, "What do you want? What do you expect from me in three years?" It's, it's like that's been a lost conversation too. What are you gonna do right now? Well, you know, it's like going back to Tony. There's too many variables. Yeah. Give them two years. There's too many variables. Right? You know, and, and- There's too many variables I, I mean, any th- a- this is a human, like, if you can tell me w- what we're all gonna look like in 12 months from now, like, none of us are You've got maybe a 10% chance- Right of, of being able to tell me what any of this is gonna look like in 12 months from now. That's right. Like 10% chance. Yeah. But just you have to have faith that it's gonna be probably better than what you thought it was gonna be. That's right. Like, that's a universe thing, and that's why, again, w- why we talk about fail forward moments on our podcast is because what you thought was gonna set you back probably was one of the best things that ever happened to you And we don't know until we go through it way better than you could. Uh, and I say, like if I would've got that Kansas State job, I wasn't ready for it. I would've got fired. Yeah. I was way better off staying at James Madison and figuring out how to actually become a recruiting coordinator instead of saying I was one, which I wasn't at that point. Yeah. And paying my dues where I was at. And then when I was ready to get a recruiting coordinator's job, I did. I went to Iowa and had a lot of success there, and- Yeah then at Western Illinois. But I s- I paid my dues for 15 years- Yeah on that. And, and my dad always said that too, "Be careful what you wish for." Everybody thinks they're ready for jobs, and from the outside looking in, everybody thinks jobs are great until you actually have to be in that office and figure out what that job actually entails. You know, everybody's like, "Yeah, I could go be the head coach here. I could go be the manager of the Giants or whatever." No, you can't. Like, you're not prepared for that job. Yeah. And if you get it, you'll be miserable because you know you're not ready for it. Yeah. Like, at the end of the day you'll be miserable because, you know, y- you know you're not ready for it. Now, some jobs you're never gonna be ready for and you just gotta get in there, but you have to have some experience built up before you can, can take a job. At least a little bit. Unless you're an entpr- entrepreneur and you're starting your own thing, then that's a completely different deal. You betcha. You know, if you're an entrepreneur and you're gonna start your own business or whatever, then go have at it and, and good luck to you because you're probably gonna start something great. But there's gonna be a lot of growing pains with being an entrepreneur too. You and I could do an entirely another podcast on just that. Yes. Um, l- let's, let's wrap this up. This has been so good, Coach. Um, I, I could talk to you for three more hours about this stuff. I wanna talk a little bit, if, l- let's go all the way down to youth, high school baseball, small college. Let's look at it all If we're gonna hire coaches, what are those foundational pieces? 'Cause we know that depending on the level, they're gonna have to deal with parents in a different way, they're gonna have to deal with NIL in a different way, they're gonna have to deal with scholarship, they're gonna have to deal with facility issues in different ways. What are those foundational characteristics that a hiring manager needs to be looking at before they put somebody in front of kids? What are those things that you think need to be there? Care's a big one. Do they actually care? I mean, uh, you, you can, you can cover up a lot of other things as long as they actually care and have some care. They're gonna make some mistakes, but if it's coming from the heart, I, I think you can live with that. Um, yes, they have to have some aptitude for their job, and they, they have to be proficient in certain areas, but not all of them. Um, but I still feel like it, it, it goes back to do they actually care about the people- Yeah that, that are around them. Um, and that, that's a tough thing, especially in today's society, but it still goes back to... That, that's not going to change. You know, it's always been about that, caring for the people that are around you and close to you. Mm-hmm. And then that, that's never going to change. You can bring all the robots and AI you want in the world, it's still gonna go back to people caring about each other What are you seeing coaches demonstrate that care? 'Cause w- we've got a group, we've got an age group that's coming into college now, and they're, they're, they might not be coming out of a high school program where there was a lot of love and a lot of community and a lot of us instead of I, you know? Everybody's trying to win, everybody's got their own private coach, everybody's spending $10,000 a year playing travel baseball. What are the r- the really great coaches doing to demonstrate that care to a kid that's coming into the program and getting them to understand, "Hey, we do this together. There's humility in everything we do. We learn from each other. We make mistakes. We're gonna fail, but we're gonna pick each other up"? What, what, what are those great coaches doing to demonstrate that care? I wanna back up and talk to the parents and kids on that, though. Like, i- if you're in a youth program right now or a high school program that doesn't do that, if you wanna keep moving up levels, you're gonna eventually be on a team that is, that is expected of you- Yeah to be selfless and we're playing to win. So you're better off introducing kids to that at an early age, because if they wanna keep advancing, and this is why a lot of kids get out of it, is because eventually they're gonna be asked to be selfless and, and buy into team concepts, and that's why a lot of them end up quitting, because they've never been asked that. So the earlier you can ask a kid to be selfless and buy into team confi- concepts, they probably have a pretty good chance of making it. Now, they gotta have talent, um, but you know, again, like I said, like, there's a coach out there that does it this way that's successful. There's a coach out there... So there's coaches out there that probably aren't all bought into that- Yeah but are still having successful. But it's the old quote, "I've never seen a jackass win the Kentucky Derby." If you have really good players, I, I don't care. If you have r- No if you have really good players, you don't have to really... I mean, yes, it still helps. Yeah. But if you're running thoroughbreds out there against donkeys- Yeah you got a, you got a chance. So. Yeah. It's, it's- Well, that's, that's why evaluation is such a big part of this. Yes, and the great ones- Can they evaluate talent? the great ones do both. Yeah. The great ones do both, especially at, at the Division I level, well, every level of college now. Yeah. The head coach is a really good evaluator, still gets their hands dirty, and, and is in the recruiting process, but then can really coach and can really manage people. Yeah. Like tho- those are the unicorns out there, is, is they still are active in the recruiting process, they're still active in the development process, and they're active in the managing of human beings. And they do all of it, and they do all of it great. You know? Yeah. I think a guy like a Jim Schlossnagle- Yeah uh, really good at all of it. Uh, Tim Corbin is really good at all of it. That's true. Um, but again, they, they have their ups and down years, too. I love it, Coach. Uh, thank you so much for doing this. Uh- Enjoyed it come back on Monday. Ryan was one of the best, baseball recruiting coaches and coordinators in the country for a long, long time. He understands recruiting as well as anybody I know. Uh, so come back Monday and we're gonna dive in and just have a conversation on recruiting for all you families that are going through that journey or wanna go through that journey and wanna understand it better. So thanks for doing this, Coach. You got it. Thanks, Matt. I could talk baseball and coaching with Ryan Brownlee all day. He spent his career teaching, recruiting, developing players, and now helping coaches across the country get better through his work with the ABCA. I love his curiosity and the way his mind works and his willingness to keep learning and how much he genuinely cares about the people in this profession. A big thank you to Ryan for joining me and to the entire ABCA staff for everything they continue to do for the game and for the coaches at every level. Until next time, control what you can control, stay humble, and keep chasing significance