Episode #191: Keirsten Sires

Episode #191: Keirsten Sires of 2aDays — Giving Student-Athletes a Voice

What if giving student-athletes a voice could actually make college coaches and athletic programs better?

In Part One of my conversation with Keirsten Sires, Founder and CEO of 2aDays, we explore the idea behind a platform that allows student-athletes to review coaches while giving recruits and families a window into the programs they’re considering.

I’ll admit—I came into this conversation skeptical. But Keirsten challenged the way I looked at coach ratings, transparency, accountability, and the opportunity for great coaches and programs to tell their stories.

We discuss what student-athletes are saying about their coaches, what separates positive experiences from negative ones, how colleges can better evaluate and support coaches, and why transparency doesn’t have to be something coaches fear.

If you’re a college coach, athletic administrator, student-athlete, or parent navigating college athletics, Episode #191 is a conversation worth hearing.

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Transcript

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Welcome back to the Significant Coaching Podcast. I'm Matt Rogers. Today's guest is Kirsten Syres, founder and CEO of Two A Days. And I wanna tell you right up front, I went into my first conversation with Kirsten about a month ago as a skeptic. As a former college coach, the idea of athletes anonymously rating coaches made me very uncomfortable. I wondered if two a days was simply gonna become a place where unhappy athletes went to complain. Kirsten changed my mind. What I learned is that nearly 70% of the coach ratings on two a days are three stars or better. And this platform isn't about just evaluating or even criticizing coaches. It's about transparency, accountability, celebrating great coaches, and ultimately creating better experiences for student athletes. It also gives colleges and coaches a place to tell their story, and that's so important. They need to show recruits who they are, what they value, what they do well, and why their culture might be the right fit In part one of our conversation, Kirsten and I get into what athletes are actually saying about their coaches, why trust and honesty matter so much in that relationship, where colleges are falling short and supporting their coaches and what administrators can do differently. This is a really interesting conversation and Kirsten isn't afraid to challenge the way we think about college athletics. Here's my conversation with Kirsten Syres.

Matt Rogers 1:27

Kirsten, you and I had a great conversation about a month ago. And I learned so much from you, and I'm so happy I did. We'll get this elephant out, out to start with. You know I had my concerns about it- Mm-hmm as a former coach about Two-a-Days because-

Keirsten Sires 1:42

Sure

Matt Rogers 1:42

as a coach, my initial fear was, well, it's gonna be where all the kids that are unhappy with coaches are gonna go to complain. And boy, did you turn me around 180 degrees, and I've been following your site. I love reading your writing and what your staff is writing, and because you do such a great job of promoting coaches as much as anything else you do. So from that standpoint, let's go back in time-

Keirsten Sires 2:10

Sure

Matt Rogers 2:10

when you started Two-a-Days, or at least when you had that, that thought in your head. Yeah. What was going on when you said, "I think our, our college environment needs this"? Where was, where did that start?

Keirsten Sires 2:23

Yeah, absolutely. So it was in a college class, uh, an entrepreneurship class, and we had to come up with an idea for the semester, and we had to pitch it at the end of the semester actually to, like, people who were in PE. It was a mock one, but, you know, it was still- Yeah you know, a fun thing to do. Y- there were parents, uh, alumni, what have you. So the idea was us, me and a couple other athletes were like, "All right. We use Rate My Professor all the time. It would've been really great if we had this for a recruiting process," because, you know, certain situations happen during recruiting. You could have the best coach in the world, recruiting process might not, not always be 100% transparent, 'cause on both sides, too. Parents a- and, and athletes might be lying or a little bit to get into the school. People might wanna- Yeah get the, the players into the school. So I'm not saying that it is, you know, flawed on just one side. So, um, it was, "All right. How do we come up with this and h- allow student athletes to share their experiences about the coaches, the programs, and everything else?" And when we had first launched, it was only head coaches. Um, so we just captured the information on the head coaches, and then it kind of transitioned into all athletic staff as well as, um, campus, uh, visits, so recruiting trips, and facilities as well. So kind of trying to all encompass on all perspectives of it because again, coaches change. They call it coaching carousel for a reason, so they change often. But facilities, campus visits might be something a little bit different. So trying to give, like, a little bit of a holistic approach to viewing everything from a 360 perspective, if you will. But that's kind of like the foundation of how it started. And thank you, I agree with you, our conversation about a month ago. So everything you said, I agree with. Well,

Matt Rogers 4:03

I, I just... I really appreciate you putting yourself out there, 'cause it's hard. When we start something, and w- especially when we're putting it out in the world, everybody judges us. Everybody has an opinion, and I really appreciate it. You kind of took everything I threw at you, just, and, and you said, "This is the positive of it. This is what we're trying to accomplish, and we're, we're trying to do good work." So I, I really appreciate how patient you were with me to teach this old dog a new trick and teach me why this is so important.

Keirsten Sires 4:37

Sure.

Matt Rogers 4:38

Let's, let's talk about what, what kind of feedback you got early on. What, what did that look like?

Keirsten Sires 4:45

Yeah. Well, you know, at first, especially with the student athletes, they were afraid to rate, right? Mm-hmm. Because we're, let's call a spade a spade with college athletics. There are def- certainly there are issues within college athletics. There are certain issues with Title IX, the processes that student athletes sometimes go through with reporting and stuff. They feel like there's gonna be retaliation, and that is where they were afraid to come to our site as well because they were thinking, "Well, if I go on there, this company's just gonna tell the coach who I am, and, you know, the coach is gonna use it against me." So at first, it was a lot of education to the student athletes on, "Hey, this is anonymous ratings. It's just like Glassdoor and all these other things that you use. You know, you're protected within the US law," all these different things. So that was one side of it, and then the other side was also a mixed bag, right? Because we had certain coaches who were like, "This is great. Uh, I'd love to give this to my student athletes and then use it as a recruiting tool." Then we had coaches who were really upset about it, and I'm not even saying I blame them for that, and then we had kind of the middle ground as well. So, and people who just either don't care, don't look, doesn't bother them, and I would say that's kind of the majority that we, we kind of deal with, and then we have the other two opposite ends of the spectrum. But, um, I will say, to preface this before, you know, 'cause I'm sure there's already people really upset with me right now 54% of our ratings are a four or five star for coaches. So,

Matt Rogers 6:06

um- Doesn't that make you feel great?

Keirsten Sires 6:07

Yes, it does. And on top of that, 69% are three star and above. So we're talking almost 70% of our coaches have a three star or above, okay? It's out of five stars, so average is 2.5, right? I'm not saying that I don't... I, like I understand where people are upset with the negative reviews, but if we're talking about two star and below, it's about 22%. So 22% is kind of in that lower range, which I'm not, that's not a fun place- Mm but it's like, it's true for any job, right? There's some reality there. There's like... It is, unfortunately. Mm. And, you know, I, but I do wanna, to capture that before we start, and we can get into like, you know, deeper diving on male, female, all those different things. There's so many stats that we can kind of pull from our site. But to me, the most important thing is almost 70% are above a three star. I think that's fantastic. I think that's something that coaches should be proud of. It's not an easy profession, as you and I have talked about. I wouldn't wanna be a college coach. I think you're underpaid. You h- you're wearing a million different hats. I'm empathetic towards college coaches. There's so many things that they have to do, scheduling, their personal lives. I, it's a tough job. So I'm not saying that this is an easy job and everyone go bash your coach. It's quite the opposite, and we do try to highlight as many coaches as possible, especially people who are on underfunded programs and can't have, be at every single showcase, but maybe they can use this oppor- as an opportunity for people to understand themselves as well.

Matt Rogers 7:39

Well, I don't know if it's ironic or coincidence. I always confuse those two, and, and I think we're kind of on the line here. I told you I'm meeting with about 40 university presidents tomorrow, and athletic directors- Mm-hmm and some VPs, and what I'm talking to them on is coaching their coaches.

Keirsten Sires 7:53

Mm-hmm.

Matt Rogers 7:54

And what I'm seeing is that it's the hardest thing to do from an institutional standpoint is because typically from your president down to your AD, and sometimes your AD, no one's ever coached in their life at the college level. Okay. So you're hiring people, and you're supervising people, and you've never done their job. So tomorrow, that's, when I'm coaching these coaches, or coaching these presidents and talking to them about this, it's the idea of we are really under-appreciating these coaches, and we're under-appreciating the things that they need to be successful and to be healthy.

Keirsten Sires 8:32

Yes.

Matt Rogers 8:32

So if they're not healthy, I guarantee you the, the athletes on their team are not healthy.

Keirsten Sires 8:37

Correct.

Matt Rogers 8:38

So that's really cool. It's really cool for me to be having this conversation today, 'cause I didn't plan it this way, but it's, it's hel- it's gonna help me with that conversation tomorrow.

Keirsten Sires 8:48

Sure.

Matt Rogers 8:48

When you look at what you've done through all these athlete experiences that you've accumulated now, and the coach reviews that you've gotten, what are you seeing separates the coaches and the programs that the athletes really love and the ones they, I don't want to say regret choosing, but you know, are disappointed that they're not getting the-

Keirsten Sires 9:09

Sure

Matt Rogers 9:10

what, what, what separates those schools?

Keirsten Sires 9:12

Um, great question. I think there's, there's two things, but everything always goes back to intent, right? I think I, we, we had this conversation before, but- You have the recruiting part where people are disappointed because the coach so oversold the program, they stepped foot on campus, and it was just, like, drastically different. Okay? Some people can get past, like, minor differences or different expectations, and that's fine, but when you're talking about a total drastic difference, that is something that people immediate- or immediately are unhappy with. Like, "I wanna transfer. I'm miserable. This is not what I expected." Again, we go back to the coach-player dynamic, and we think, okay, coaches are always gonna be older than their players. The players are most likely living alone for the first time by themselves. They're away from mom and dad. They might be flights distance. They might, you know, be experiencing all these other things. So I am empathetic to coaches, but I'm also empathetic to players as well because you, you have to understand their lives are kind of totally shifting for the first time, and they're super young. Brains aren't fully developed. Um, so when that expectation is so drastically different, it's almost like a total deflation and something that completely unmotivates them to an extent. So that's number one. Number two, I think- There's a lot of things that are really interesting in the sense of, I would say, stereotypes with, like, coach-player dynamics, and one is always like, "Well, they just didn't like me," or, "They don't like that coach because they didn't get enough playing time." May be true, may not be true, but then there's also people who are saying, like, "Oh, you just can't coach anymore because you can't be strict, and you can't do this, and you can't do that." That may be true for some specific instances, but overall you can be a strict, hard coach and say what you wanna say, but it leads back to intent. So if you're yelling at a student athlete and saying, "Come on," you know, "Get your..." I don't know if I'm allowed to swear or not. Yeah. "Get your whatever together." Yeah. Get your shit together. Um-

Matt Rogers 11:11

I don't have any FCC guidelines. What the-

Keirsten Sires 11:15

You know, get, get your shit together. Get your shit together,

Matt Rogers 11:17

yep.

Keirsten Sires 11:18

As, as long as a player really truly knows, "Okay, Coach has my best interests in heart. They're being hard on me. I'm upset today. I didn't like... I didn't, didn't feel great, but you know what? At the end of the day, I, I understand where they're coming from." And I, I'm not saying that a coach doesn't maybe have to have an extra conversation and say, "Hey, look, I, I'm being hard on you because I, I wanna make you better," and all these things. But taking the time to do that and show to the players, "Hey, my intent is good. I want you to be good in the classroom, on the court or pool or whatever, you know, sport you are, and on the field, i- and in life in general," the players feel that. They, there's... Building that team culture is so important, and understanding that the players are looking to trust you and almost look at you as another parental figure, which is a lot of pressure and another reason I wouldn't wanna be a college coach. But looking at you as your pare- their parental figure on campus, that's kind of where the core of it is. Now, then there's other situations where there's a total mismatch of personality, which sometimes you just can't account for, right? Recruiting process is so small, it's just gonna happen. Like, not everything's a perfect science. It's like taking a bad job, you know? I'm sure there's tons of coaches out there who went to a school that they're like, "This culture is terrible and it's not for me." Same thing with everything in life. There's parallels and processes in every part of life in every different industry. It's not exclusive to this, but everyone's very, very passionate about this, and everyone has a lot of money invested in it, and there's a lot of money to earn in this, so that's why this is, like, so, so, so, so divisive.

Matt Rogers 13:40

Yeah. And a lot of these coaches, like you said, they're taking jobs based on what they were told, and then the reality was d- drastically different for them. Yep. And now they have to sell this thing that's completely different than what they thought it was. Correct. Now the product they're selling isn't what they want or, you know, it's hard for them to get behind it, but they still have to fill their roster 'cause they wanna get a j- the, their next job, right?

Keirsten Sires 14:04

Mm-hmm, correct.

Matt Rogers 14:05

Talk about some of those things that the kids have talked about. They were told this, and then there was a drastic difference when they got there. What are some of those things? And I, I'm curious how much of it was roster size.

Keirsten Sires 14:19

Oh, I would say rostered has I've heard of players going in assuming that they had a spot on the team, and then understanding that the second that they got there, it was now a tryout, and then a bunch of people got cut. Um, that consistently seems like one that was, like, a huge one. Other things, um, just telling kids that they're gonna be the number one starter, and then it's like, well, there's six other people. F- how is that possible in the same position? Come on. Um- Terrible other things as blatant as, like, we're getting new facilities this year, and then stepping onto campus and it not happening. Like, there's, like, a wide range of things that people are being told. Um, I would say the core of it all comes down to where the person is gonna be in the lineup. Now, tough thing to say, right? Because some coaches might actually think that that kid is gonna be p- in that spot when they get there And then they might, you know, go into preseason and not live up to what they think.

Matt Rogers 15:13

Yeah.

Keirsten Sires 15:13

But maybe, maybe coaches, to your point of the, the teaching, the coach maybe say, "Hey, look, I'm thinking that this is gonna happen, but I'm not sure. You gotta prove yourself." I don't know. The wording I think is people hang on to every single word of a coach. Every single communication between a coach and a parent and child is scrutinized to the umpteenth time. It's almost like going through a bad breakup and you're trying to just roll back like, "Is there a chance that I can get back with this person?" That's what's happening for players and parents. And again, you know, when I was going through recruiting, there was no NIL, there was no portal, there was no anything. Now we've had explosion of money, we've had explosion of potential players coming back into, you know, the fold with graduate, graduate assistants and all these different things, um, or graduate years I, I should say. It's a, it's a different ballgame. It's way more intense. It's so intense at this point. And again, there's so much more money put on the line, and the schools are funding these massive operations. I mean, you look at some of the top programs now, they're better than professional facilities. When was that ever really the case? Not, it wasn't. So I get there's a lot of intensity around it. I keep, like, justifying like I but I, but I, I, you know what? It's true. There are multiple sides to this story to an extent. Yeah. And I do wanna know, as far as, like, the ratings a- and coaches being fed something, that's where we also provide the opportunity. Everyone loves to focus on the, the player side, but coaches could go rate athletic directors, and coaches can rate other coaches. So if you play for a coach, you can go rate that coach, or if you wanna say, "Hey look, this athletic director told me all these things, and then I stepped foot on campus and it wasn't true," you can have the ability to do that as well as a coach. So we're not just saying, "Hey players, go do this," we're saying, "Coaches, you also have a voice in this as well."

Matt Rogers 17:00

And what's cool about your site, and I know you promote this and you told me this a dozen times, is you want kids to come in and say, "If you've had a great experience, come in and tell us that."

Keirsten Sires 17:09

Correct.

Matt Rogers 17:09

Come and tell us how much you love your coach, and the facilities, and your athletic director, and the education, and the, and the school-life balance of all that." So I, I think that's what's really cool, is-

Keirsten Sires 17:20

Mm-hmm

Matt Rogers 17:21

and sometimes w- we only speak up, we, especially we only get on social media when we're angry, but we don't do enough of the say, "Hey, I just had a great experience. I need to share that," you know?

Keirsten Sires 17:30

Mm-hmm.

Matt Rogers 17:30

And you promote that really well. Are colleges doing enough to evaluate their coaches who are responsible for this experience? Do you see the schools doing enough to support their coaches and give them this direction?

Keirsten Sires 17:46

No. No. Um, and I think it's har- again, we'll empathize with everyone today. I think it's hard, too, from the school perspective because you also, it's like, where do you draw the line in as far as like, okay, it's supposed to be an educational institution. Now, those lines are very blurred in America, obviously. Nowhere else in the world are they. But I think because of the drive of revenue and money and all these things, I think schools really have to start stepping up to the plate in supporting their coaches and supporting their staff, in giving them more resources, also just like more budget to have other people help with their job. Now, what seems like an easy solution to me would be, okay, we have these schools. Instead of making the coaches go out and fundraise for their programs, 'cause that's the reality for a lot of coaches, get somebody who helps all the programs fundraise and have them be like the main fundraising person. Coaches can work with them directly, let them handle it. Why are coaches fundraising? Why are players going out and asking for money for teams? Like- Amen what are we doing? You know, it just puts so much added stress, unnecessary stress. That is like low-hanging fruit number one. What are we doing with that? You know, on-the-field stuff, coaches love, right? That's why they're a coach. They like working with their players. They like teaching them the game. They like, you know, help... Like, it's a very altruistic job. So- Mm-hmm you know, let them do those main things and create culture and great happiness, everything. But, like, players, sure, give them access to mental health. Give the coaches access to the same things. Like, I... Those are the things that I think we need to do better, uh, for these institutions across the board. Yeah. D one, two, and three, okay? Because if you look at it, the, you know, 95% of the sports at the smaller institutions are the ones that actually need the most help. It's not the ones at the big schools un- under the football teams, although I'm sure they have their own set of issues. But you take a women's soccer coach at a random school, how overworked is that coach? It's insane. It's quite literally insane. If you took their... They did this with investment banking. If they took their salaries on how much they worked, and it was less than an hourly employee made at McDonald's, pound for pound- Right like what they would get per hour. Yeah. Absolutely gotta be the same for coaches, for sure. Um-

Matt Rogers 20:06

We, I used, I did, I did that math for years.

Keirsten Sires 20:09

Yeah.

Matt Rogers 20:09

You know? I, I made like $8 an hour my first six or seven years as a head college coach.

Keirsten Sires 20:16

Yeah.

Matt Rogers 20:16

It's crazy, you know?

Keirsten Sires 20:17

Yeah. It, it's, it's insane. So I, I do think programs need to kinda step it up in that regard. And you know what? If you're gonna use it for your main source of fundraising or getting your endowment or getting whatever- prop it up then. Like, don't use that, those resources and the players and everything else to then turn around and say, "Oh, well, we're gonna spend it somewhere else." Like, you got, there's give and take, right?

Matt Rogers 20:39

Yeah.

Keirsten Sires 20:40

Just is what it is. And some of that money has to go into the all school, you know, funnel anyway, but- Well,

Matt Rogers 20:45

yeah, we gotta pay for, we gotta w- pay for field maintenance and, and gym maintenance and janitors- Yeah insurance, so it can't all just go to the program.

Keirsten Sires 20:55

Correct.

Matt Rogers 20:56

I love your example with fundraising. You know, it's not, none of these coaches took a job with experience in marketing and- No you know, and I- No and I think it opens up a bigger picture here. I walked out of school with a secondary education degree and an English degree, no psychology, no counseling.

Keirsten Sires 21:15

Mm-hmm.

Matt Rogers 21:16

And you're expecting me to deal with 15 young men or 15 young women's personalities go, you know, going through that 17 to 22 year range in their life, and you're expecting me to have to deal with that. Well, we all want that. We want that experience. We wanna help our kids, but we're not trained in that, right?

Keirsten Sires 21:34

Right.

Matt Rogers 21:35

You know? Yeah. Fundraising's just one of the things. It's the psychology and the counseling side, the, the community service side, the, the practice planning, the budget management, all those things need help. Um, I know you don't wanna be a coach, and you've made that very clear to me. Y- you understand- Yeah how hard this job is.

Keirsten Sires 21:54

Yeah.

Matt Rogers 21:55

But in your role as CEO and founder of, of Two-a-Days, you have learned so much. You've accumulated so much data. What advice would you give to a coach in terms of their tone when they start their recruiting journey, when they start building their program? You know, it, should we, should we all be lowballing kids and just saying, "Hey, we expect you to come in and work your butt off. There's nothing guaranteed"? What advice would you give a coach about that process?

Keirsten Sires 22:23

I think it's fine to expectation set and/or give your vision for things, but I think if you say it's concrete, that's where it's tricky. So it's more about, "Hey, here's what I'm thinking right in this moment, but things change day to day, hour to hour. As long as you step up on your end of the bargain, uh, this is what I'm envisioning, and if something changes, I'll let you know." And I think communicating that along the way, like, you know, if they're, if you think there's this amazing player who's gonna be your number one prospect, and then there's this underdog that comes in and is outperforming, not for lack of effort on the, on the other person's thing, but just, you know, things happen, right? People grow in different ways and everything else. I think having that conversation and say, "Hey, look, I thought this when I met you, and here's why, but this is the r- truth of the reality," and, you know, having those harder conversations, which isn't an easy thing to do. Um, I think that's kind of where, like, the honesty and the communication, the intent kind of comes into play. And again, not something I did when I first started this company with people. Like, "Hey, you're underperforming. I think we gotta, like, you know, start to figure out if you should... if this is your role or whatever." It's not fun to do for the most part, but it at least leaves the person with a sense of, "Okay, I can understand where they're coming from," or, "I'm still upset and, like, maybe I can't, but, you know, maybe let's have another conversation," or, "I have a path on how I can work towards that goal," or whatever it is. But I think a lot of times coaches sometimes either don't say anything, um, or maybe get defensive because I- honestly, if s- you know, somebody comes to me and it's like a little ego sting. Like, "Ooh, what do you mean I did that wrong? What are you talking about?" You know what I mean? And it's true, again, for anything. Um, but I think just trying to understand that, that the kid is most likely in a desperate situation. Like, "I just want to play. What can I do to play? What, what, what changed? What this, what that?" Talking to their parents, over-indexing, sitting with their roommates. This is their lives, as it is the coaches' lives as well. Um, but I think leaving the door open that, "Hey, things might change, but here's what I'm thinking, and if it does change, I will let you know," are kind of, I think, the basic things that we can take away from it. And again, easier said than done.

Matt Rogers 24:41

Well, it's one of the things I do for a living now. I, I coach coaches. I, I consult on athletic campuses. In high school, college, it doesn't matter. For me, I'm, I, I want to help coaches.

Keirsten Sires 24:50

Sure.

Matt Rogers 24:51

What I'm constantly telling coaches is, is that your honesty is, is your lifeblood. It's everything. Mm-hmm. If you're not honest with these kids, then y- you're only gonna run into problems. You're only- Mm-hmm gonna find more stress for yourself, and definitely build that stress for them. So it's, it's really important that when we're building that coaching dynamic, that we're treating these kids as young adults and giving them a chance to deal with, uh, that honest, "Hey, you're not working hard enough. That's why you're not playing."

Keirsten Sires 25:25

Yeah.

Matt Rogers 25:25

Or, "We've got, we've got other kids that are better than, th- at this than you are." So really having that foundation of honesty from the beginning is so important. And we've got too many coaches that get caught up in, "I don't want to lose this great kid because we have a bad facility," or, "My president's making me have a JV team."

Keirsten Sires 25:46

Yeah.

Matt Rogers 25:47

I don't want to lose this kid, so I'm not gonna tell them that."

Keirsten Sires 25:50

Yeah.

Matt Rogers 25:50

And, and that just o- only hurts them in the long run.

Keirsten Sires 25:54

Sure.

Matt Rogers 25:56

Talk a little bit about where Two-a-Days is headed. Where do you want it to go? Yeah. What's it gonna look like in two years, three years?

Keirsten Sires 26:03

Yeah. So one of the things we're working on is reputation management, which I had spoken with you about, where the coaches are going to be able to reply to their ratings. Um, and then the next step would be the ability for, um, the schools to also kind of get involved in that as well. Same, again, as Glassdoor. I- as a company, I can go on Glassdoor and, you know- Right take my profile and add the information to it and everything else. So same concept. But with the coaches specifically, um, they'll be able to reply. There's gonna be some parameters, right? You can't be like, "Ashley, I know this is you from 2015." Like, okay, we're not gonna get into this, like, crazy back and forth. But you have a chance to defend yourself, for sure. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. So, um, within reason, responses and nice dialogue, well, we hope nice dialogue, um, to say, "Look, you know, this was taken out of context, and here's why," and everything else. Now, I will say, Matt, based on our conversation, which I wanna thank you for, I did take your advice, and we are going to be allowing coaches to have a little top bio, like a, a, a bio that they could write in, "Here's my coaching philosophy. Here's this about me. Here's everything that you need to know." So- Good

Matt Rogers 27:14

deal

Keirsten Sires 27:14

when the people are going through and looking at everything, they'll also get that, um, which was your suggestion. Um, so they'll get that context as well. So that is what's happening before the end of the year, step one. And then, you know, within two years, it'd be great to have programs also on that as well as a whole, schools, um, especially when it comes to facilities, right? Because they're doing a lot of fundraising behind the scenes that people, recruits don't know about. Right. They can have the chance to say, "Hey, look, here's the facility that we're building. Here's a program that just won a title. Here's a coaching change," anything that's happening within their program that they wanna add context to. Um, they'll never be able to delete comments. I'm not into the, like, pay-for-play-for-hierarchy-of-ratings or rankings- Oh, yeah or deleting ratings or anything. But if they wanna pin comments or other things like that, they'll be able to do so. So kind of building this dynamic where, hey, student athlete gets a voice, but you're allowed to reply to it as well and kind of gi- give context if you so choose.

Matt Rogers 28:13

I'm gonna put it into context. I, I never have any expectation when I, when I talk to somebody like you that you're gonna take any of my advice or any of my recommendations, so I appreciate you doing that. I did. Yeah. But there was no expectation of that. Um, I'm gonna talk to you a little bit as a dad. Sure. One of the things my wife and I are struggling with, we have a 17-year-old that's going to college next year. She's a senior.

Keirsten Sires 28:32

Mm-hmm.

Matt Rogers 28:32

One of the things we're struggling with is the whole financial aid journey.

Keirsten Sires 28:37

Sure.

Matt Rogers 28:39

I would love to have a place where I can see what's the endowment of the school.

Keirsten Sires 28:45

Mm-hmm.

Matt Rogers 28:46

You know, if they only got a $30 million endowment, that means they... 30 million is pretty much what it costs to keep a college open for a year.

Keirsten Sires 28:55

Yeah.

Matt Rogers 28:55

Right. Right. That's what they, that's just paying their bills. So think of your savings- Right account saying, "I've got $3,000 in bills this month, and I've got $3,000 in my savings, and that's it." That's the importance of that endowment. So I'd love to see that, and I'd also love to see what the average merit award is.

Keirsten Sires 29:13

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Matt Rogers 29:14

I, I have a friend that just got their kid into Michigan, $80,000 a year, 4.0 GPA. You know how much merit money she got?

Keirsten Sires 29:24

Probably not much. Yeah. Not, yeah. Yeah.

Matt Rogers 29:27

She was valedictorian and didn't get a dollar from Michigan for

Keirsten Sires 29:30

academic- It's hard when you're allowed to have, like, a 4.7 GPA now. I don't know

Matt Rogers 29:35

what is going on there. What are we telling kids about their high school career if we're not gonna give you- Yeah we're not gonna give you a discount because you were an awesome student? So I, I would love to see some of that. So, um-

Keirsten Sires 29:48

Sure

Matt Rogers 29:48

just, just from, from a dad's perspective, I, I know the research we've been doing to learn some of this, but- Yeah I, I love what you're doing. I love where this is headed. Um, let's, let's finish this first part with a little advice to the coaches out there that are listening just about- Your experience, you and I both had kind of crappy college athletic experience. We had really good college experiences, but we know the athletic experience could have been better. Talk, give a little advice about the value of that student athlete experience that you would give to coaches.

Keirsten Sires 30:25

Um, you mean in, in context of how I think being a student athlete was valuable?

Matt Rogers 30:30

Yeah. And what- Oh what do you wish, what, what you wish your coaches would have understood a little bit better?

Keirsten Sires 30:34

Oh, oh, oh- In that spirit I gotcha. Yes, yes. Yeah. Okay. I'm, I'm there, I'm there. Um, you know, it's interesting, 'cause I had, I had a mixed bag in the sense that like I didn't like my one coach, but I loved my other coach, 'cause I had two college coaches.

Matt Rogers 30:46

Yeah, you were a two sport-

Keirsten Sires 30:46

And I-

Matt Rogers 30:47

two sport athlete, let's put that in there.

Keirsten Sires 30:48

Yeah.

Matt Rogers 30:49

It's really hard,

Keirsten Sires 30:50

so- So I, I think for me in particular, when it was looking at really dialing back the layers of what the different experiences were, it was safety, trust, um, you know, understanding that my coach knew that as a women's college soccer division three player, I wasn't gonna be going pro and making millions of dollars. So if I had to miss a practice for something for my major, it was okay. It was ex- you know, understanding a- academics are ultimately first, right? Because it's a different world as far as men's and women's sports. Men's have higher earning potential, but not even with every sport. So when it comes to just the understanding of that, the safety part is always huge, right? Feeling safe around that coach and everything else. I can't stress that enough. I think it's underappreciated, but like, people really need to talk about that more. Um, and then also the intent part is like massive, massive, massive. Um, I think those are really important foundations. And what we've seen across the board, I'm not just... Yes, my own experience, but also what we've seen in, from all the data, um, coming in. And I think, you know, with parents too, safety is, you know, you're a dad, uh, safety is a huge thing, right? You wanna make sure campus is safe. You wanna make sure coach is safe, facilities are safe. There's easy ways that if something is going to happen, that there's the blue buttons all over ca- you know, there's things that you look out for as a parent for your child, of course. Um, but I would say those are like really integral parts of that. Everything else you can kind of figure out, right? Like, there's gonna be days where you get in a fight or you do this or you do that. You also have to understand the student athletes, their frontal lobes are not developed until you're 26 years old. They're gonna make mistakes. They're gonna do silly things. They're gonna say silly things. They're gonna, there's gonna be so many different things happening, but it comes with the job to an extent, so you kind of have to accept it as much as it probably is really frustrating. Um, but I think, you know, just kind of giving a little bit of empathy where sometimes it's probably needed, even though- It probably hurts your soul at times. And again, I'm not saying that there's not outliers where stuff happens and you might have to take someone off the team and whatever else. I, that's a whole different mixed bag. I'm just talking generally speaking, that's what I'm seeing.

Matt Rogers 33:12

Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's... I think the presidents that I'm gonna talk to tomorrow and all the presidents that might be hearing this, they would be shocked to hear that the people that they hired don't have a focus on safety, intent, values, priorities, uh, being a student athlete, the balance. I think they would be shocked to know that they have coaches That aren't, aren't focused on those things and, and, and are struggling to talk to their kids about those things. Or those- Yeah kids, kids in their program don't feel like they are safe or the coach is going to keep them safe. I think they'd be shocked.

Keirsten Sires 33:57

Yeah. I mean, go, if you're a president listening to this, like, go do a SWOT analysis on each team or the programs, 'cause that's the language that you're gonna be speaking, right? Just go. Look, look at the opportunities of everything, but obviously humanize it in the sense of it's not just revenue, revenue, revenue or bottom line. But, you know, you could simply go through and just take inventory of how the program is functioning. And I honestly think, too, there's a lot of inefficiencies within college athletics. So there's the part where we're not spending on some areas, and then we're overspending on other areas. Mm-hmm. So I think that's something, as something that you could take inventory on. You could do your SWOT analysis. You can, you know, MBA it all you want, and you might get a better picture for it. You know what I'm saying? So I think those are things that if you go in it with a humanity lens, um, it might just be a good activity to do or just pull, pull coaches in. What... Honestly, tell me, what are your big- three biggest pain points? I would bet at some schools they're gonna say fundraising. Yeah.

Matt Rogers 34:58

I mean, everybody needs more money. Everybody wants more.

Keirsten Sires 35:01

Yeah, yeah.

Matt Rogers 35:02

But I, I, I think oftentimes the, the pain points are the things that we don't think about, like, "I've never built a budget before. I've never had- Yeah to build a budget before," or, "You know, I, I was an assistant coach and my coach, my head coach told me who to recruit and who to talk to, but we didn't have a system. They just told me what to do. Now I'm a head coach and I don't have a system to recruit."

Keirsten Sires 35:25

Right.

Matt Rogers 35:26

Let, let alone do I understand how important it is that I'm stressing safety concerns and value system and empathy and, and all the things you talked about. So yeah, I, I, I, it's a big need what you're doing. I'm kind of piggybacking you. I'm, I'm, I'm really focused on coaching the coaches and the athletic directors and the presidents on, "Hey, your- Sure coaches are overwhelmed. They're insecure. Uh, they don't wanna be micromanaged, so they're oftentimes not telling you they need help or they don't understand something." And, and- Gotcha I really think it's our universities' jobs and our college jobs to say, "We have to have a platform to make sure the people we're bringing in- They understand our institutional values.

Keirsten Sires 36:07

Correct.

Matt Rogers 36:08

And, and we need to find that out in the interview process, not six months in after the season's over on the-

Keirsten Sires 36:14

Correct

Matt Rogers 36:15

right?

Keirsten Sires 36:15

Yeah, the coaching turnover is crazy, and I feel bad for coaches. It's like, I mean, how often are they looking for new jobs, and, like, mismatch of opportunities. Right. There's just so much. I mean, you don't see that much turnover in corporate.

Matt Rogers 36:27

Yeah.

Keirsten Sires 36:27

I mean, you do see turnover, but not, not as much. I mean, coaching is, is pretty crazy. But to your point, I think expectations, everyone just needs to take an honest pill- That's right in the whole world.

Matt Rogers 36:38

They do. Yeah. You know, it's, it's, when, when you're hungry, when you're hungry and you got a fishing pole, you don't care if it's a bluegill or a- Yeah a trout. You don't care. You're hungry. You know? Right. That's how a lot of coaches are. They want that job. They wanna pay the bills. They wanna do what they love. And then they get the job and they don't understand it or they're not prepared for it. And-

Keirsten Sires 36:59

Right

Matt Rogers 37:00

I think the universities have to take accountability for that. You know?

Keirsten Sires 37:03

For sure. Yeah. And,

Matt Rogers 37:05

and-

Keirsten Sires 37:05

I would imagine that they do with the professors. I, I don't, I don't know. I don't know. I was gonna say- Yeah that is something I really don't know,

Matt Rogers 37:12

but- I think you'd be surprised. You know? There's, there's so many professors that get hired because they're a brilliant chemistry mind or they're a brilliant business mind.

Keirsten Sires 37:21

Yeah.

Matt Rogers 37:22

But their ability to communicate with 18-year-olds was- Not

Keirsten Sires 37:26

great

Matt Rogers 37:26

not the best. Right?

Keirsten Sires 37:27

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Rogers 37:29

And how

Keirsten Sires 37:29

do you- Fair enough. It's like promoting a really good salesperson to a manager. It's- They might not be a good manager, but they might be a really good salesperson, yeah.

Matt Rogers 37:39

Kirsten, thank you so much for doing this. Uh, I, I- Of course so much appreciate how you put yourself out there. And you must be made of Kevlar, 'cause you take the bullets just as well as you take the kindness, and I really appreciate it. Keep doing what- Thank you you're doing. You got a big fan in me. I'm really excited where Two-a-Days is headed. And for those of you listening, come back on Monday. We're gonna do a second episode with Kirsten, and we're gonna dive into recruiting itself, and I'm gonna let her give you some advice from a coach, parent, and student athlete perspective. So come back to us in a couple days. Thanks, Kirsten.

Keirsten Sires 38:12

Thank you.

38:14

That was a great conversation. One of the things I love about doing this podcast is how often I walk away seeing something differently than I did when the conversation started. I might come in with a pretty strong opinion, and then a guest challenges me, opens my mind to another perspective, and sometimes completely changes the way I think about it. That was definitely the case with Kirsten over the last couple weeks. I came into this conversation with some skepticism about twoadays.com, and I'm leaving it with my eyes open to what this platform could mean for coaches and student athletes and families and colleges and athletic programs. And I think that's what's truly significant about Kirsten and Two-A-Days. This isn't about tearing coaches down. It's about creating more transparency and celebrating the coaches and programs that are doing things the right way, and giving student athletes a voice, and giving coaches and colleges an opportunity to tell their story and show recruits who they really are. And ultimately, if that helps families make better decisions and helps coaches and programs create better experiences for student athletes, that's a win for everybody. And my advice for those of you that are gonna go to Two-A-Days is go into that opportunity putting yourself in the other person's shoes. Would you want somebody to publicly admonish you? Or would you like somebody to give you some constructive criticism? And that's the problem with the internet, and that was my fear, uh, when I s- first learned about this. So I encourage all of you to use Two-A-Days, but be that person that says, "I'm gonna be constructive." And if you're working with a great coach or you know of a great coach or AD or a school and you have any experience with them, go to Two-A-Days and talk about those great things just as much as you might go and talk about those things that are frustrating or hurting you. A huge thank you to Kirsten Sires for joining me. And we're not done. Kirsten will be back for part two on Monday where we're gonna turn the conversation towards college recruiting and what athletes and families need to know before choosing a program. Until next time, stay focused on what you can control. Stay humble, and keep chasing significance