Shay Cline and Meredith Decker: What Puppies Really Need From Us (Part One)

Shay Cline and Meredith Decker (dog trainers and Adventure Camp Counselors, Summit Dog Training) are our local puppy gurus. In part one of this two-part interview, they share their individual journeys into the professional dog world, what drew them to puppy training in particular, what challenges puppy parents often fail to anticipate, and dive into the various stages of puppyhood. 

Discover:

• Surprising parallels between puppy raising and human raising
• Why puppyhood can sometimes feel like taking one step forward and two steps back
• What happens in our puppies' brains as they grow

Stay tuned for part two, coming up next!

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Shay Cline and Meredith Decker: What Puppies Really Need From Us (Part One)

 Welcome back to the subwoofer. You are in for a treat for several reasons. Reason number one, we are talking about everybody's favorite warm and fuzzy topic today. Puppies. Reason number two I have not just one, but two incredible guests on this episode with a wealth of experience in fulfilling puppy needs. Shea Klein and Meredith Decker are the adventure camp counselors at Summit Dog Training, and they are two of Otto's absolute favorite people on the planet. They've witnessed all of his adolescent milestones, and I can personally attest to the quality of their services and support. Without these two people, Otto would not be nearly as well adjusted as he is today at such a young age, and I would know a whole lot less about why he does the things he does. They're also just all around great humans with great energy, and I loved having this conversation with them. As soon as we sat down, it was like three old friends hanging out, having a few laughs and nerding out about dogs. I'm so thankful to have people like this to connect with and learn from, and I hope you enjoy this discussion about all things puppy. Today. I'm so excited about the guests that I have here to have this conversation, because I consider them both the puppy gurus at Summit Dog Trading and Auto. My dog actually spent several weeks in adventure camp with these two humans I have here, and I credit them with helping him to develop a really great baseline for self-regulation and for being an all around good boy. Thank you both. I owe you for that. Seriously. Uh, so who I have with me here today, I'm going to start with Meredith Tucker. After graduating from Colorado State University with a bachelor's in social work, Meredith began this career path in dog training on a bit of a whim and followed their lifelong passion for dogs and animals. Their experience includes several dog daycare and boarding facilities, and in each role, they learn something new about dog behavior and how to create a successful environment for each dog. Their degree in social work has helped Meredith develop skills and communication with clients based on compassion and understanding. They believe that all dogs and owners deserve open and honest communication, and wants to help them find the most successful program or resource. Mayor shares their home with their cat Ortom and a bigger fish. And I'm thrilled, thrilled, thrilled that they're here with us today. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. I'm very excited. This is my first podcast and I love talking, so I'm very excited to get started here in the knowledge that I am some can can just perfect. Yes. Here this is a personalized credit. Okay. So our second guest here today is Shea Klein. She grew up exploring the Rocky Mountains of Colorado and has always held the canine partner for all of her outdoor adventures. It was here that she discovered her passion for dogs and the joy of reward based training. She believes that whether you're hiking, climbing, camping, or just exploring nature, the trail feels better with the dog by your side. She trails with the goal of developing a partnership between you and your dog based on trust and clear communication, so that you and your best friend can spend more time doing what you love together. Shea is a graduate and certified training partner of the Karen Pryor Academy, and has been training professionally since 2017. She shares her home with Daisy, a spirited and tenacious American Staffordshire Terrier mix and Shona. Shona is a Rough collie. Rough Collie, yeah. They enjoy exploring the outdoors together and participating in a variety of sports including rally, agility and barn. Welcome to the process. Thank you. Super, super excited to be here. I am thrilled to have this conversation, and I have a feeling that it's going to be a popular episode because we are talking about puppies and puppy raising and puppy training, which sounds so bright and cute and bubbly and wonderful. And it is. But also there are lots of other things. Yeah. I know that also there are lots of other things that go along with puppy raising, but personally I. In all the research that I did because I am an avid researcher before adopting. Out of that, there is still plenty that I was like, oh, this is what we're dealing with today. So I'm excited, super excited to talk puppies. But before we dive in, I have a question that I would love to hear the answer to from both of you. Marion, we'll start with you. Cool. I'm very curious about what motivated you to make the transition from dog lover to dog trainer. Yeah. Um, it really, I feel like now saying it's a bit of a whim. It was a little flippant. Um, so I don't want people to think, but, like. Ah, yeah, I just started this, um, but it was very much like I was in one of my last semesters at CSU, and I was finishing up my degree and just kind of thinking about, like, my future and next steps. And did I want to pursue this career and all of the jobs I admittedly, I don't think I did that much active job searching. But I knew a lot of the organizations, and at the time I was like, I, they're all great, but I don't know if I want to work with any of them. And I was like, I don't actually know if I want to do social work. And so I was like, all right, let's try like just checking out several different things. And so as I was graduating, I just started applying for a ton of different jobs. Um, the first place and the only place I got back to me was camp out here. And, um, so, yeah, I started at camp four and it kind of just really slowly fell into place. I started there, and I jokingly like to say that I feel like most people who start working in dog daycare is like, that's where they start their career. Um, it's like they go through the five stages of grief because you go from dog lover and you go like, this is great. I get to play with puppies all day, and this is not the case. I mean, yes, it's great. Like there's a reason I'm still in this position, but, um, I think it's because that's where a lot of people or for people who start in daycares, like they go, oh, no, I like dogs, but this is not what I want to do. I just want to hang out with my dog and I. You select others and some people go, oh no, like, wow, this opened up a whole world. Um, and so that was very much it for me. And I just like it just very slowly came together. I think I had like several different paths, like, oh, what if I knew better? What if I did this? What if I did that? And I bounced around between three different daycares, um, in two years? Um, and then Amber snatched me up, um, bless her. And, uh, just kind of. Yeah, went from there. I don't even know if when I started at summit and I started with cam, I don't even know if I was, like, decided on, like, if this is what I want to do. It's just I got this position I have a really great opportunity of doing it. And I didn't have a certification like it was just I got hired because of my daycare skills and I think potential for growth. And then I just kept doing it. I started assisting classes, I started doing this, I started doing that, and I went. Well, I'm in it and I this is great and I love it. And so that's it was like a very slow and long, but it was kind of something I was just I just kept trucking long day by day. And then honestly, I just, um, summit gave me a lot of like, opportunity to do that growth that I wasn't able to do in my previous places. Um, like, you kind of just hit a ceiling, um, at some point where you're in dog daycare. So, yeah, it was very slow, but it was just like I got in it. I went through those five stages of grief, reached acceptance, and went, no, I still want to do this. I still love dogs like this still matters a lot to me. I'm I still feel like I'm doing valuable work. And then I went, all right, dogs in my life, I know this is what I do. And then, just like osmosis, a lot of information. I love that I, you know, I feel like at least in our society here, like, we're really kind of conditioned to say, well, I've always known, I've wanted this, know I'm here and I've got it, but sometimes you just kind of roll with what life is throughout you, and that leads you to to something that you love. Yeah. So I really love that. About the movies. Uh, same question for you, Sheik. So, uh, kind of similar. Um, I was at the time, um, going to school for, um, uh, biology and just switched my degree because, again, it's that idea of, like, you start going to college and you've decided on your career path, and you know what? You're what you're doing. Um, and so I had already switched my major once, um, from, from geology to biology. And at the time, I was working at Petco and an aquatic specialist, I was doing all the fish things. Um, and I loved it. I loved my job there with my my part time job while I was going to college. And they asked me, my general manager approached me and said, how would you like a pay raise? And I said, I would absolutely love that. And so I got into dog training that way and I went, Holy smokes, I actually really love this. Um, I always knew that I love dogs, like, you know, I grew up doing, um, some sporty things with my dogs. I always had dogs growing up. They were always a major part of my life, but I never. Assumed I could have a career with dogs outside of being a vet or groomer or something similar, like dog training was never presented as a career option until I got to that point and I went, okay, I love not only do I love dogs and I love working with dogs, I love helping dogs. I love working with people, which I think was the biggest surprise to me. I never saw myself, um, as wanting to be in a at that point in my life, in a career that was so human focused, and it became, honestly, the part that I loved the most. So, um, that's that's how I'm here. I ended up committing to it and continuing to go through Capa and, um, you know, several, uh, um, I decided to move away from corporate and, um, a few jobs later stumbled into to summit because I loved everything that it was about. Um, and I'm super, super happy to be here and doing camp and super great. I love how you mention what a people focus your offices, because I think as someone, someone like myself who's not a dog professional, I'm just a dog nerd. Um, it's really easy to look at dog training and think of it as so dog focused. But you're right, you can only really help animals if you're helping their new right and. Um, I've noticed I mentioned this to a few other trainers that that have sat down with me for episodes on this podcast that the staff at summit in particular, including Willow, is extremely well versed in people communication, people skills, um, which I think makes a gigantic difference in the value that people can get. So puppies I already mentioned, I think of you both as the puppy gurus at summit because of the amazing work that you do in Adventure Camp for puppies, which we've participated in. What makes you both passionate about puppy training and formula? So I love puppies. Um, for a number of reasons. I think that there is some for the most. I think there's some idea, um, when trainers first start to get into dog training, like they start figuring out what they're going to do, puppy raising seems to be like an easy segue into it. Um, puppies are not adult dogs. And like, that's like a very basic statement that like, should make sense. But a puppy brain is very different than an adult dog brain. They have a very different set of needs. And I have always found that helping puppies kind of navigate that early development and like their, is particularly like navigating their emotions, navigating the world, their relationships with their people and the other dogs in their house always to be extremely rewarding. Um, and again, you know, dog training, being such a people oriented profession, um, I find that my work with my, um, my puppy people to be really energizing, um, for all of the highs and lows that come with it. So, like, you know, there is a there's a good amount of people who I will, you know, see the, the excitement of everything that they are looking forward to with their puppy and all of the dreams that they have for their puppy. And I get to see all of the very common, what have I done? So what is this little critter that is running around my house and I cannot sleep? And, um, I get all of that, and I, I love to help people through that and building their puppy into a an adult dog, but they're gonna have a great relationship with. I feel like that. But we need people that are energized by that, because I can tell you that if I were in your position, I mean, I've been exhausted by my one singular puppy that I've been raising. So I imagine it's taking special talent to, uh, to help people navigate those challenges and find it motivated to keep going. How about you, mayor? So I think she makes a good point about like, I mean, for me it's like it's just where I started, you know, um, very much in my training journey, especially internationally and like at summit, like I started with puppies because I think it is kind of a nice, easy I hesitate to use the word easy, but it is like a a good jumping off point because you are working with less baggage from the dog compared to like if you wanted to work on reactivity or confidence building or any other number of skills, there's less like history of repetition. And so I think in general, I just that's just where I started. It's all I've branched out to make sure puppies don't come with baggage. Yes, they certainly do, contrary to popular belief. So these are not blank slates. They they come with their own baggage the same way that like humans do. And I think that's I think that's part of it for me. And I think, Shay, you like you said it and I think it's something that I always knew. But the first time you said it at Adventure Camp, like, rocked my world where you're like, this isn't a mini dog. And I knew that, like, I, I knew that even as, like, me staring a puppy. I know you're not gonna know all these things, and that's why you're here. But it really, it was like a statement, and you verbalize it. I think that's it. Ah, I'm so glad that you just brought that up. The this isn't a mini dog thing, because that has been something I've had to tell myself from a different angle. And for me, that angle is if I'm dealing with a difficult behavior from auto, which has happened many, many, many times and will continue to happen as he grows. It's very easy for me to look at that and go, oh my God, this is how it will be for us. Yes. If you were reading on one of my favorite things that I like to say to clients, I know it is hard and you feel like you were saying the same things until you're blue in the face, but it's it's not going to be forever. You're going to go way more years with your dogs and as an adult, and one day all of this doing the same thing over and over and over again and feeling like you're getting nowhere and it is not clicking, it is going to click and it's like the heavens will open up. And that is exactly what it is like. I have had some moments like this recently with auto wear, and it looks, you know, to a bystander this would look small, but with auto we work a lot on reactivity that is based in frustration. Um, so auto really likes the freedom to go access things at his behest. He does not want any barriers. He doesn't want any restrictions. He just wants to go see the things. And I might add, he always has. Yeah, hobbies, day hobbies, show up with their own baggage. Auto has always wanted to be his own creature on their standard. I feel like a lot of first things we learned about him because they're lazy. Like, yeah, because I met van when you did play school with Angela on Thursday, and that's when we unplugged cars. Yeah. And I remember that was when, um, like, he was frustrated because other dogs were playing and he was in his pen. And I feel like that was one of our first realizations about him. We had an adventure camp is, oh, no, we're not feeling reactive out of fear or, um, I hesitate to use this word, but it's it's coming to mind like aggression. Right? Heavy quotes. Yeah. It's just I'm mad that I can't have my way all the time and I can't access the dog. And I feel like that was like our first almost breakthrough with him, where I like, okay, you you love playing with dogs. You love it. Yeah. Like we can do this. Yeah. It's just we need to work to navigate that which is a very like not to anthropomorphize which literally every episode I've used that word. It's a good word not to anthropomorphize, but like if you imagine, like that emotion of, oh my God, I can't have what I want when I want it immediately. That's such a childlike emotion, right? Um, not to say that there aren't adults, but feel that, sure, I've met some God, but still as a very much childlike emotion. So yeah, working on that. I mean, a moment that might look like nothing to a bystander at the park on his long line was everything to me. And that moment was we walked in close proximity to an adult dog who was on her own tether while her human was playing pickleball, and she was super calm, which helped. But we passed within like 20ft of this dog and Otto. Needed no assistance from me and just to keep walking and to sniff the ground. And I was like, ah, oh my God, it was the heavens open a moment. I was like, it has happened. We were figuring it out and it's great. And he doesn't need access to it right freakin now. Um, so yes, it does. It does get easier and you get better, but dividends will start showing up. Yeah, I love that. So we've we've talked a little bit about adventure camp, but here and there as we've been sitting here, but I would love for our listeners to hear a little bit more about how it works, uh, the structure of it and what makes it different than just a daycare experience. Huh. So, um, the main thing that we keep in mind when, when we were developing Adventure Camp. Um, is, and I say developing and not developed because it feels like it is in a constant state of growth. And as we learn more about dogs and as we, you know, continue to educate ourselves. It's kind of not massively overhauling what I would say, but always kind of shifting. But whenever we're developing and have developed things for camp in the past, um, our priority is always that we are, um, for puppies in particular, um, putting them into experiences where they can be successful. And part of that, um, includes a really small, uh, number of dogs. Total dogs. Um, adventure Camp day is just Meredith and myself. And so in order for us to make sure that all of those puppies are getting their needs met and they're learning important things like how to navigate their emotions about, um, Leonardo's case, like, you know, not always getting to play with every dog all the time or, um, you know, just being in confinement and not, um, kind of learning how to self-soothe and learning that they don't actually need me to do that, um, that they can be behind a fence, behind a be a gate on a tether, like important skills for a dog to have. Um, that they don't need me. So in order for us to to kind of teach puppies those key skills, um, we keep a really small number of dogs. We have a really tight staff to dog ratio, which is not something that you typically find in a lot of programs. Mhm. Um, I think that would be the main difference. One of the main differences between us and your usual daycare is um, you're going to this could be a lot less dogs in there. Um, when we do play, which is not non-stop play, I have um, I've had people in the past ask me why their dogs spend what feels like a good chunk of the day in their own individual spaces. And, and I tell them it's because you do not want me to put your puppy. Then you're playing non-stop all day. Puppies need a lot of support. Um, particularly when they're playing with other puppies and not like an adult dog. Um, to learn when to stop and how to respect each other's boundaries like they, you know, they're still socially developing. They don't have all of those key components to tell them when to stop. So a lot of our day spent at camp is teaching puppies when to stop. It's it's usually not hard to teach them when to go, but when we spend a lot of time teaching them, hey, actually, you you need to rest. Um, you need to you need to slow down. You know, we we spend a lot of value, time building value into to the settling portion of things, um, and the regulating through, you know, emotional cycle, port of things, which is not typically found in, um, like a daycare environment. Yeah. Yes. You know, that self-regulation stuff. I dive deeper into that on another episode with another summit creator, Angela. But that verbiage drew me to this program. It really did. Because. Because it's something that I've come to know a little bit more about as it applies to human beings, and it's that type of concept that fulfills a need for not just humans, but also our companions. That is kind of the motivation behind why I want to dig into more stuff, because I think it's an empathy thing. You know, it's an empathy thing to, um, have some knowledge of what self-regulation might look like for a human and realize, oh my God, when I am not regulated, or maybe when my human child is not regulated, I feel terrible. And now you can look at your puppy a little bit differently and say, oh, wow, okay, there's a lot of stuff happening here. It's crazy. There's noises, maybe there's biting, maybe there's chewing up, maybe there is barking, growling. And it just makes it a little bit easier to empathize, which I think makes it easier for us to help. Yeah, absolutely. And oh, I love the I love I love analogies, I love analogies, I love using them in class. I just I love it. But one of the things of like, how do we feel when we're not regulated or when we're not able to, um, help our like, just help ourselves, calm down or don't want to. And same thing with kids. So I have three nieces, um, nine, six and two and a half, and my sister and two of the older kiddos came to camp, um, over. Christmas break. Winter break. Um, and they, like, spent like a couple hours that we use them for practicing, like greeting small humans because, like, they had tons of practice with us. And first of all, there's other dog trainers. Yes. Like just so, so different. Like just like my posture. I think a lot of times when I'll help private lessons or something. Angelo, like, stop being a trainer. Like my posture is like, I'm not looking, I'm not being overly obtrusive. And so anyways, having having, um, non trainer people come in to practice and generalize those skills is really great. Um, but after that they, um, got familiar with the Snuffle mat because we used it for one of the dogs. And on Christmas Day when I went to go like, uh, stay with them, uh, one of my niece goes, I'm so excited. If I were a dog, I need a snuffle mat. I'm like regulating. And they have like a, uh, thing on their on their fridge. That was like, what to do when their youngest gets zoomies and, like, wrote a list of things to help regulate her. And I'm like, yes. It's just. Yeah, it's very I find, you know, talking about like, what makes you passionate about puppies. It's I think part of it for me is like, they're shockingly similar to children. Yeah. Like, yeah. What I tell people sometimes is like, you have an infant lady, especially when they're baby puppies. Like they come in like you have an infant. I know it doesn't seem like it because they're at eight weeks, a lot more independent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that a human baby. But it's like you just have an infant again. And I love when parents come in and they're like, yeah, I know, I know that. I just have a child again. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah I yeah, you just got a baby on wheels. That's that's what you got going. Yeah. With, you know, possible thumbs but teeth instead. Yeah. So in light of the baby on wheels with teeth concepts, what do you. All right, that's gonna be merged. Merged for now. What do you have at night? Oh. This is, I think, a commonly asked question, but I'm gonna ask it here anyway because I feel like there's still not enough information at the ready for people looking into puppy raising, especially for the first time. So what should a person ask themselves before they decide to raise a puppy? That is a really good question. So I think something that is a big. Thing to consider with puppies. Um, with them not being, you know, adult dogs is that you may have a vision for, um, for what you want your life to look like with your adult dog. We we all do it. We're all guilty of doing this when we when we go into getting a dog, we we have dreams, right? You have, um, there's some trainers that call it like, there's like a movie trailer dog where it is like you are imagining what your life is going to be like, what your walks are going to be like, what your, um, day to day is going to be like with this dog. And when you are bringing home a puppy, you are basically going to have to know that in the short term, you're not going to have that, um, you're going to have a very different little creature with a very different set of needs. You know, you may imagine neighborhood lock. So what I'm going to do with my dog and you may find that that dog neighborhood was not a good fit for a lot of developing puppies. Um, so it's a lot of shifting your expectations and maybe your day to day routine to help them grow into themselves and adjust. And even long term. Sometimes our dogs end up different than we imagine and do all the research in the world, and our dogs are going to end up a little different than we imagined. So it is, I think that the biggest thing is, is being able to to shift our expectations and have some flexibility for the short term and potentially the long term of this dog's life. Yeah, I, I think that's really powerful because, uh, I, this person right here did all this research prior to puppy raising, which I'm glad I did. Like I got a lot of good information out of it. I already had a baseline understanding of some training concepts, because I have a trainer in my family went in and I was like, bringing it this right, it's going to be great. Like, this dog is gonna be awesome. Like, where can I get ahead of any problem? This is and it will not be good. That is not how it has come. And I wouldn't have it any other way because, um, it's about a relationship with an individual. Even though this isn't an individual human. This dog that I have here, Otto, he's my first small dog. He is my first terrier. Um, you know, these are things that even though I researched them before, we decided to adopt him. You know, they bring different challenges than the retriever mixes them. So and even beyond that, like regardless of breed, regardless of size or there's the individual, right? There's the individual personality that you're dealing with and, uh, the individual biology and chemicals and all that stuff. Um, so it's really important to remember if you like. And so for this next question, I'm going to throw it to you first. Yeah. Okay. In your experience, what challenges in puppy raising do humans often failed to anticipate? Oh, what a fascinating question. I know this sounds very like I feel like it might be so obvious you forget to think about it, but yeah, I know. I spent a few days where I was, um, I was taking one of Danny's puppies home for, uh, Danny Glover trainers. Um, who breeds Aussies? She had a litter of puppies, and I was. I took one home for trial, which was about four months. Um, and so she was a little bit older. She wasn't itty bitty, uh, but I think for me, it was like, just the, like, the massive shift in my schedule for her, like, it just became. Everything had to be settled around her, and I had a busy weekend that weekend that I'd kind of already known about, like I had an event that I had to work. I had a couple other things I'd gotten lucky in terms of we had this in camp that week. Um, I took her out to the event and she was incredible. Like, I would not ask this. I think of most dogs, and she just did amazing because I just had her in a crate. She was like very busy. I was at, uh, the drive in. Mhm. And I think yeah, I think for me it's just you kind of know like oh I'm going to take a lot of time like this is going to be a long even. Like you know a lot of people have that process of art. I'm getting a puppy. It's gonna be a lot of time. They're gonna have to learn. They're gonna have to be potty trained. They're gonna have to learn how to be in a crate. They're gonna have to learn all the basic obedience. I want to do this with them. Like having that vision. Yeah. And, um, for me, it was really like, oh, my gosh, I can't leave my house. But, yeah, like, I, if I'm leaving my house, this dog has to come with me. Mhm. And it was also like I was exhausted like I didn't because I was also she had what I don't think at the time she had a lot of practice at crate. Mhm. Um and so like you know working on that. But she had a hard time in the crate at night and so like yeah I, I used the baby logic of when she sleeps I sleep. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that that might be the biggest thing is like you have an idea of like this is going to be a lot of work you don't actually like, but you won't really fully realize it until you get the dog and kind of know, especially the first few weeks until the dog like, hits a rhythm, has an idea of what your schedule is like, what the rules are in the house. Um, where do we go? Potty uncomfortable here. Like. Until they really get into the, you know, like until they really start to slot into your life, your everything is gone, your social life gone. Like it is just about that dog for the week. Yeah. And I just for rent when I, when my dog she was now six when she was a puppy. Um, there's always these things you failed to anticipate plan your year and. Yeah, it is just, um, you know, it was a. Well, my partner is at work. I have to take a shower. My brain says it's the the puppy goes in the crate. Mhm. I did not anticipate this puppy would scream her hat off. And I was in a second story condo and that was not something that could be done. So here I am with my shower curtain halfway open, so I can kind of keep an eye on this puppy while she's locked in the bathroom with me chewing on a cow, or how this could be my kind of crying a little bit if she thinks that she can't see me because puppies don't have a great object. Permanence similar to, you know, tiny humans and that's just not something you think about. It's not really there's there's not much that can be done about it other than, again, having some of that adaptability. And I think the bigger of a of a community that you have to help you, um, which is something that we also try to provide at camp as being that community resource where you have a few hours to like to get that, have your life together, um, and not have to worry about your puppy. Yeah, I think having that community resources is, is massive, massive. And not to say that a puppy cannot be raised, you know, by someone who's doing it solo. It's been done. It can be done. Um, but there is something to be said for for having a village and certainly, um, this is so my next question is something that seems incredibly basic, but, um, it's something that I have realised as I've talked to a variety of people, as I raise my puppy and talk about, you know, 90% of what I talk about with people is my puppy. Most of us don't understand the timeline, age wise, for puppy pud or dog adolescence. And when they've actually grown into adults. So can you speak to that timeline? When are dogs generally considered to be actual adults rather than puppies, and does it vary dog by dog? Sure. So I'm going to start by saying that we unfortunately we have some research that is directly. You know, done with dogs. Um, but not a tremendous amount. Um, a lot of our research on brain development is, um, done with other social mammals. So human primates, uh, rats, things of the sort. We have some specific dog studies, but not as many as I wish we did. And that's getting better all the time. Um, so that is my, uh, my preface to these things. Um, but what we have to tell us right now is, is, um, in the early stages of brain development. So that would be like, um, a dog is a we would consider them like a baby puppy. So we're talking like, um, where our brains are really collecting a lot of information. Um, and in this, this period of puppy hood dogs or puppies or, or rapidly, um, developing neural pathways and pruning neural pathways. So that is essentially that is our socialization period. That is our, um, information that works gets strengthened really fast And when I say works, I mean it has a reinforcement, um, and information that doesn't get reinforced gets pruned and tossed away. So that's why we would tell somebody with a puppy that they're socializing to really try to avoid, um, negative experiences for that puppy. So if my puppy has one bad experience with a man and a hat, it could be impactful. But if I make sure that I'm avoiding that, I'm setting my puppy up. Really good experiences. Um, largely, that's going to kind of dictate what neural pathways are the strongest and which ones get pruned. That's really expensive for the brain. Um, the brain cannot maintain that level of of that, that pruning and growing, um, for forever. Um, that is one of the reasons also, puppies sleep so much or should sleep so much. Um, around six months old is where we start to get into more of that adolescence stage. So socialization would continue. But some of that rapid like association growth kind of starts to slow down. Um, and we're going to start to, um, look more at like the emotional side of brain development. So that's going to be our puppies, which are now teenage dogs are going to start to learn a little bit more about, um. Like social things, but we're starting to be more into that. Um, that starts more around six. Like I said, six ish months old is usually where we start to see that happen. We start to see hormones start to kick in. Um, for smaller breeds, skeletal development can can be done by about six months. A lot larger breeds. That's going to continue up to sometimes two. Yeah. There isn't a hard stop on when adolescence is considered done. Um, and our best guess is about two. I wonder, though, you know, it's not that a dog wakes up one day, they're two years old, and then their brain is like they are who they are, right? Similar to humans. So I think we can consider don't have lessons till about two. But I can tell you there's a big difference between a two year old dog and a three year old dog. Yeah, and a three year old dog and a four year old dog. Yeah. Um so now, like, you've hit your 20s. Yeah. And like For me at least I'm 33 at this point. Every light in retrospect, looking back at that time, I'm like, I went through so many changes personally and emotionally in that decade. That's kind of like that. Yeah, I'm doing two and three. Yeah, yeah, I like I prefer my 30s. I feel much more in what I'm looking for. I'm glad I just learned today and I'm looking forward to what it is. I'm like, I'm so close together and and maybe that's how our dogs do. Like, man, I really got my shit together. Now I'm three going on, four are figuring it out and it is so fascinating. Like, I mean, we yeah, we don't want to answer for more fights, dog. But there's a lot to be said for the brain development and just social mammals in general, and how similar we truly are in a lot of aspects. And a baby dog, we we do have some research that's saying that puppies like that again, that early window. So we're talking like, you know, like birth to that like almost 16 week ish range. Um, there. We have some evidence that saying that puppies are develop attachments in that range similar to like young like like children. So they're trying to figure out kind of how the world works and how they operate, like in your family. And then I think there's a lot to be said for adolescent dogs trying to figure, kind of really figure themselves out. And, um, you know, the at that point, they're still developing that from cortex that helps them make planned, you know, or delayed reinforcement really. So they're going to do what feels good in the moment as opposed to what um, you know, maybe things we've trained them to do. But um, so that's definitely something we can play a lot, I think. Yeah, it's really valuable to think about these stages of not just puppies, but life for our dogs. And the fact that, I mean, when you think about it, their lifespan for later, let's say a dog auto's size and breed make up is maybe 15 years. Right? And so we've got 80, 90, 100 years sometimes. And there's I think that for me puts in perspective how much can happen in such a short period as dogs develop because our lives are shorter, but they still go through that period throughout the world and figure out a song. Right? It's a lot packed into a really short amount of time. Yes. And I think also along those lines, um, you know, along along our reoccurring statement of. Puppies aren't just mini dogs. Um, same thing like when your dog hits six months, maybe closer to 8 or 9, depending on the size of your dog. They look much more adult. Yeah, and then it's even harder to remember that they are still developing because especially, oh my gosh, especially like your dog is a wrecking ball, like physically speaking. And they don't have the cute puppy face and puppy breath anymore to keep them alive. Leave the puppy license. Yes. Yeah. And it's it's really hard to split when you just learned all of these things. Why are you forgetting them? And, you know, I think we talk a lot about, like, your dog will hit adolescence and it's like everything they learned has gone out the window, and then you got to do it all over again. But then eventually it'll all come together. Because frequently I don't get it. Students come in and they will have puppies that I like. I call them like puppy geniuses because it's just like these puppies come in and they're just little businessmen. Like, they just they show off what their suit and tie and their briefcase, and they are ready to work. They're ready to learn anything you want to teach them. Like they are just ready to go like you. These are quick study dogs. If you could teach them complex behaviors. Like my puppy was one of these puppies I was teaching, I was like two weeks old. This is my first dog and I was so excited. And she I was teaching her on skateboards, you know, um, and they hit adolescence. And your puppy genius comes back, but is temporarily replaced with um, uh, now a dog who is still trying to figure out who they are and navigating their emotions, and people often will feel like they have done something wrong. They will go, oh my gosh, my puppy was glued to me and had off leash skills, which most puppies do. It is a lie. It is the mommy tether and it will go away without lessons. Yeah. And they will think, okay, this puppy was coming to me every time I called them, and they knew all these things and suddenly it's like, gone. And my puppy is barking at people and barking at dogs and pulling on the leash. And I frequently I am navigating the challenge of like, I want to prepare people for that right when I tell them, okay, your puppy is doing amazing. You are doing a great job. Do not feel like you've done something wrong. Yeah, if you come back here when your puppy turned six months old and they're having a hard time, yeah, it doesn't mean that you have undone any of the training we've done. It is just part of the process. Right. and it will end and we'll get better. And we're here for you. When that happens. It's teenage hood. Yeah. They hate you and your. Friends, there is a lot more ground to be covered about puppies. So I'm going to come back next week with part two of my discussion with Shay and Meredith. If you haven't already done so, make sure to hit the bell icon wherever you're listening to this podcast to be notified when part two drops. See you next week! If you liked this episode, don't forget to share it with a friend and remember that the best way to motivate me to create more is to leave a five star review to make sure you don't miss the next one. Follow and subscribe to the subwoofer on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you're listening. 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