Nick Sanville: Foundations For Successful Training and Bonding With Your Dog

This week, Hannah switches things up and interviews Nick Sanville, Office Manager at Summit Dog Training. Nick is not a dog trainer, but he holds one of the most important jobs on his team. He's the first touchpoint for all of Summit's clients and is adept at answering their questions, listening to their needs, and using what he learns to start them off on the right foot with training their dogs. Day in and day out, he acts as the bridge between the trainers and the clients.

Discover: 

• How to start off on the right foot in training your dog
• Compatibility in dog-human relationships
• Advocating for your dog and getting comfortable with awkward interactions
• What to evaluate before moving forward with a dog trainer

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Transcript

Nick Sanville: Foundations for Successful Training and Bonding With Your Dog

 So today I have with me another member of our favorite local training organization here in Fort Collins, Colorado, some at dog training. This is Nick Sandoval. Nick is the office manager over there. So his actual job is not teaching classes. But I'm super excited to talk with him because he talks to people like you all the time. Um, about the questions you have about figuring out where to get started with your dog. And as some of you may or may not relate to, sometimes when we go into dog training, we know shockingly little. So having people like this around is incredibly valuable. Um, and I'm excited for what we'll talk about. So little background on Nick. Nick has been an animal lover all his life, from growing up in a house full of dogs to now having his own pack of six dogs. It's truly been a lifetime of experience and companionship. After spending a few years as a hospice slash special needs foster for Izzy's Place Senior Dog Rescue. That makes me so happy. Uh, Nick now spends time supporting his partner in her pursuits in dog sports. With an extensive background in the music industry. He brings a history of administrative communication and event coordination to the Summit Dog Training. Family. He lives in Fort Collins with his girlfriend Erica, and they share their home with their six loving pups. Can you tell me all of their names? Because I only have five. Yeah. Okay. Um, so it's Lizzie, Lily, Marvin, Atlas, Rubik and Siri. Siri, I love Siri. That's such a good name. And that's your little Chihuahua. Uh, that's, uh, my Loughton Lizzy is the ancient Chihuahua. Yes, the old guard. I'm already impressed because I. Yeah, six dogs is beyond my capability. I feel like once you get into a rhythm, anything beyond, like, a couple is they just, like, click into the rhythm of the day. Yeah. So. Yeah, but it's a lot. I'm sure it is. Don't get six dogs. It's too many. Well, you know, I mean there are worse things to happen to people than having six dogs for sure I would agree. Today we're going to do kind of an epic style interview here. And but before we dive in, I want to talk a little bit more about you and dogs and what you love about them. So much. So since you've spent your life surrounded by dogs and you've not only done work at summit, but you've done work at Izzy's place and you support your partner who's actively involved in the dog world. I just want to know what you love most about having dogs in your life. What makes you want to have them around? Well, I think for me dogs are that like pure. You know, they give you like an honest representation of themselves. Yeah. So frequently, like, not 100% of the time. Sometimes you got to break down the walls a little bit when of certain dogs, but for the most part, they are just, like, oozing authenticity. And I really appreciate that. I don't necessarily have like a great family background. So I don't have like a lot of strong family foundations. And I think that like that source of just genuinely honest love that is like not conditional is like such a great source. And they just offer it up for so little in return. All you have to do is like be there for them and yeah, yeah, they'll make you their whole world. It's it's insane. Plus, you know, dogs get underestimated a lot. I think they're seen as like just a dog when reality is they're all unique individuals. And they have such a depth to them, and they're capable of learning so much, and we're can learn a lot from them as well. And I think that's really valuable to have. Well everyone's crying. No, I, I love that and I couldn't agree more. I think part of what we have, we stand to learn the most about from our dogs is how to be genuine. Because they can't help. They can't help it. That's how they are. I completely agree. Um, you know, they they come with a lot of the same foundational needs that we do, but without a lot of the other stuff that us humans have stacked on top of that to make our own lives more complicated, often more difficult to navigate when it comes to relationships. But with them, you're right. It's it's really simple. Yeah, they make it simple for us, which is I can't imagine how I could ever repay my dogs for that. That's true. I'm in debt. They're the best friends that you could really have. Yeah. You know, it's it's a lot of one way listening, which is good too. Yeah. Yes. I mean, sometimes you can have conversations. Yeah, yeah I don't I have conversations all the time. That's true. He makes all kinds of noises. He's very vocal. So clearly we're both very passionate about dogs here. And I'm very curious about some of the questions that you field from people that call in to summit. And I remember talking to you because I called about puppy play school for Otto, and you very patiently explained what it was and like it was something totally different than what I was understanding it to be in my head. I was like, I dropped them off, and then I come back and you're like, no, okay, we have that. It's a different thing. Yeah. So okay, so in terms of someone that calls in, let's say, someone that was in the same position, I always said they are raising a puppy for the first time. Where do you direct them to begin in terms of the services that summit offers? And then what do people in that position, what should they be focusing on the most with how to get their dogs started in training. I guess I always try to put myself in the position of the people that I'm talking to. I think that it's just easier to to understand what someone's looking for. If you've been there, I've raised a few puppies over the last few years. It's not something that I had done overly frequently. But I know like what for me was like the biggest points of stress when it came to. Obviously, it's very exciting because there's a lot of love, but it is a lot of work to raise a puppy. Yes it is. They require a lot of attention, despite the fact that they should be sleeping most of the day for their own development. Those three hours, though, that they're up for, they're up. Yeah, they're very up. So typically speaking, I like directing people towards the group class. I think that there's a lot of benefit that we can get from group class experience. I think that. Socialization is something that is often misunderstood in dogs. The reality of it is that it is a small window at the beginning of their lives that you kind of get a couple another crack at it again later, but for the most part, like that is a really important chunk of time. And I think there's a lot of information out there about like quantity over quality. And I think that like shorter bursts of quality experiences are going to have like a better lasting impression on them. So I'm always pushing for the group class essentially. I think that private lessons are great. Of course, they're very customizable, super flexible, so you can work on whatever you want to work on in a private lesson. But I think when we're raising a puppy, it's good to learn together. It also gives you that sense of like relating to other people where you're like, I'm not the only person that's like this stressed out about my dog right now. And you don't have to feel guilt about being stressed out about having a puppy. It's pure chaos. Yeah. So it's like mommy and me. But for dog owners, yeah, it's like, I just want to relate to people. I want to know that I'm not alone in this. So I think that that is a great element. But the beauty of the group class is you're not. You get to learn how to train your dog. That's like a big foundation of what we do at summit is the trainers don't do the training for you. They help you learn how to do the training on your own. You're spending the vast majority of your life with your dog without a trainer there. So like it's important that people feel comfortable knowing how to handle situations on their own with their dog. Yeah. And I think oftentimes when the dog is that young, there aren't like glaring issues that you're facing where it's like more specifically, I want to work on this in a private lesson. This is like something that's coming up. So with the group classes, you get to work on a lot of like foundational skills, working on confidence, learning to work around distractions, giving focus, starting to work on like emotional regulation and just being near exciting things in the presence of like in the we just since we just moved. Obviously space is gone up a little bit, but in the old summit rooms, like it wasn't a huge space. So having everybody in their own area and like having the dogs learn to settle down and then kind of teaching them that there's that on off switch where it's like, okay, we can turn it on, we can play, and we're gonna turn it off, we're gonna do some focusing, and then we can turn it back on again. And yeah, so I think that generally speaking, that group class is. A great experience for for most people, especially people who are learning how to train with their dogs for the first time. Absolutely. And I mean, you hit the nail on the head with at a young age. Like, for example, when I brought Otto home, he was eight weeks old. I think I brought him to puppy play school, which is the group class you're talking about when he was about maybe 12 weeks. Mhm. Um, or maybe ten. Anyway, he was very, very little. He was very, very young. And yeah, he wasn't showing any of the challenges that we've been working on for the past like six months. At that point he was mildly interested in the other dogs but was not overexcited like those behaviors didn't start showing up till later. But the fact that we spent that time coming into class for six weeks, every week, once a week, that really I think it was crucial for him and for people that adopt puppies young like his litter was surrendered without their mother, so he was weaned really early. It sounds like, you know a good amount about that kind of golden window of opportunity. Can you talk a little bit more about what is the window from what age to what age? And for people who are bringing puppies home, particularly young? Why is that so important? Yeah. So I, I don't know the exact range. I know that like for some breeds like German Shepherds, it actually is a little bit younger, closes a little bit earlier. I know I'll have a lot of second hand knowledge here. So um, essentially like as you're approaching 16 to 17 weeks, you're seeing that window start to close for for most dogs and, uh, essentially. Dogs who are exposed to new sights, sounds, flavors, sensations, experiences. In that window, they're able to make a better recovery later when they're exposed to those things again. So if we can build positive associations in that time frame, I think it's like seven or so weeks on to about 16 to 17 weeks is is the general bracket. But yeah, if we're able to like make those positive associations and it doesn't, you don't have to like meet X number of dogs, meet X number of people. It's not necessarily like that. It's more like meet a couple people have have it be a really great experience where like it's really fun and it's really exciting and nothing bad happens, nothing scary happens. Then the likelihood is that later in life, when your dog is meeting new people, they're already going to have that positive bridge built there so that they can like say, oh, I've been in this situation before. It was a good experience. So yeah, absolutely. Well and then with other dogs too. Yeah. With other dogs definitely. Like I think and that's such a variable where People think, oh, I need to, like, meet every dog. I hate that, I genuinely hate that. Yeah. I just like, put yourself in your dog's position. Mhm. I do not want to say hello to every single person I walk by on the street. I don't want to like be friends with everybody that I meet. I think that they have the right to feel the same way. So obviously there's like a line of reactivity that is not good for them that, you know, that's like stress for them and makes them feel less happy in general. So we don't want to see that. But like, there doesn't need to be an eagerness. Yeah. That I think some people feel like should just be there. That's like what a stereotypical good dog is, that they just are eager to meet and be friends with everybody, everyone, everyone all the time. Yeah, I have a dog that once he gets to know people, he's very friendly. He's a super chill guy. But before that he's like, hey, please don't touch me. Yeah. And I think that that is totally acceptable. Absolutely. I mean, why shouldn't they have boundaries? Yeah, it's they're, you know, it's this gets talked about with people all the time. And I feel like it's kind of in vogue now, like especially as a stepparent of something I talk about with my kid. You know your body is your body. So if you don't want anyone else to approach you or put their hand on you, that is your prerogative. At any age. You decide if that's okay or not okay with you, and I feel like that's for some reason new to be talking about, which when you think about it, you're like, ah, it should not be that that let's basic rights of being an individual. And I think it's a right that goes beyond being a human. It's a right that should go toward any sentient being, really. And yeah, it makes perfect sense. And I think an adjustment of expectations is, um, is really important there because, I mean, I'll be honest with you, I went into puppy raising with him and the the draw. One of the big draws of raising a puppy for me is like, I want to, you know, I want to help build this foundation for for my child to live a really fulfilling life. I, you know, I want them to feel good and confident in social situations and in general. He does, like a lot of the things we've done have helped him with that. But he has his boundaries too. And I've learned like along the way as I've watched him, as I've interacted with him and as I've approached him more empathetically, my expectations for him have changed. I don't want him to have to be involved in situations he doesn't want to be involved in. Like I don't want to force that. He likes to be the center of attention. He likes to be, especially around new people. But there are plenty of other dogs that don't feel that way. Um, my like step dog Sparky, who stays with us, is like the opposite of him and has much more anxiety about newness and new things. And I think that's his right. That's fine. Like there's nothing wrong with that, right? It's my right. Yeah. I'm super anxious about everything all the time. And if somebody was, like, demanding for me to feel a certain way, I just don't know how to accommodate that. It's not a choice that we get to make, and it's not really a choice that they get to make either. Yeah. You just feel how you feel and that's what feelings are. Yeah. I mean, I don't think that they're different in that sense. Yeah. I think it makes it especially important for us to take the time to accurately interpret their body language because they don't have English words to tell us, oh, I'm feeling anxious right now, or I'm really unsure about this. Um, and so, you know, we have to kind of we have to, you know, put in that extra work. And it's not that much extra work is all. It's just more than anything, it seems like just a paying attention. Right? Yeah. It's kind of an Angela on the summit team is a really great resource for understanding dog body language. And the fun thing about understanding dog body language is how many videos on the internet it ruins for you. Yep. And they're like, look, my dog is smiling. I'm like, that is a stress pant right there that looks uncomfortable. That is a variant on the Yeah, I've tried to get better about understanding when my dogs do or don't want something like consent down to picking up my small dogs or, you know, just as is often as I can try to practice consent with my dogs. And I think that it goes a really long way in building that trust in that relationship with each other where they're like, I know that you're not going to intentionally make me do things that I really don't want to do as often as possible. Obviously, there are some things that like this needs to happen. Neither one of us want it to happen. It just has to happen. Like getting nails, trim. Yeah. Nail trims. And that's what counter conditioning is for. Yeah, it can work on that stuff, you know. Yeah. And yeah, it's I think that really affects the relationship that we have with our dogs. Like even though they are these creatures that will just give you everything. Mhm. We owe it to them to do a better job I think, than a lot of us are used to doing traditionally of paying attention to what's causing them stress and making sure that we're not putting them in those situations more often than they need to be put in them. Yeah. I mean, I think it's the least we can do with as much as they give back to us. Like we get to leave. We have whole entire lives. We go places, we do things, or our brains are processing a million different topics every single day. We're worried about stuff. We're thinking about the future. We're cringing about things that we've done in the past. The dogs are just like very present in every moment with us. And it's it's like a disservice to them to not just like say, okay, I'm, I'm going to be present with you right now, and I'm not I'm just gonna let all this other stuff go to the side and we'll just we'll just be together right now. What do you need? Yes. Let me just help you and give you whatever you need in this moment, since you don't really have the ability to give it to yourself. Sometimes I guess there are, you know, self-soothing behaviors. Sure. Barking feels good. Yeah. Feels great. I will be the first. If he could speak English, he would tell you I freaking love to bark. It's my favorite. Barking is right there. So we talked about getting started with puppies, which. Summit has services specifically for puppies during that crucial window of time to be socialized, um, to have those good quality experiences. What about people that you talk to that come in with adult dogs? Do you talk to a lot of people that have just adopted an adult, or people who have had a behavioral challenge for a long time that they're now wanting to dig into? Yeah. So I find that there are like a few different kinds of people that are seeking out dog training. There's like people who just got a puppy and they're like, I need to just start off on the right foot so that I don't end up with a train wreck later. Right. And then you've got people who are like, I just adopted this dog. I barely know it, but these are the things that I'm seeing right now. And then there's people that are like, I'm seeing this new behavior in my dog. I've had him for ten years and I've never seen this, and I don't know what's happening. So usually for we've got a class that is great for like adolescent period, Smells Like Teen Spirit and I. That is a pretty popular class, I think, because just due to the nature of being a teenager, dogs are going through a lot of changes. Their brains are all of a sudden going haywire. Where your five month old dog, you're like, wow, look at this polished little champion. You're doing everything so good. And then your seven month old dog is like, ah, so that's that's definitely a window. That's a big window where I see a lot of people that are like, I don't know what's going on. My dog has no ability to, like, emotionally regulate whatsoever. Yeah. So that is a great. That class is great for combining foundational skills with an overarching presence of emotional regulation and impulse control, and just kind of teaching them that there are more options than the first thing that pops into your brain when we're facing a new situation. And then just like strengthening the more ideal choices in those situations and like reinforcing those and making those, the pathways that are all of a sudden what we're falling back onto. Yeah. For older dogs that are newly adopted, that people are like, I don't know, that don't have a lot of foundations, you know, questionable background, unknown history, probably not a lot of one on one attention. Good dog basics. It's always a great place because that is like the grown up dog version of Puppy Play School in many ways minus the playtime. But because you know, not all six year old dogs just want to hang out and play with each other. Sometimes they're fine with just like, you know, going somewhere, learning some stuff, eating some food and going home, going to sleep. You don't have to talk to Anybody else? Yeah. Gonna do our thing. Gonna look at my person while we're here and. Yeah, that's, uh. Those classes are great for learning foundational skills and, like, learning the principles of positive reinforcement, how to reward behaviors, when to mark behaviors. And I think the beauty of those level one classes is that they cover a lot of foundational stuff. And that gives you a good perspective when looking at what the next steps are like. If I want to keep training now, it's kind of more obvious what my weak areas are. And, you know, now that we've taken this first step and said, all right, now we're working on greeting people. We're working on leash skills, we're working on like recall. Like what? What is the part that I need the most help on? Yeah. To move forward and actually make progress. So I think that aside from just getting a good foundation with everything, it's just really helpful as a guide into whatever next steps are right for the people. Well, it seems like the theme of the class structure and the class hierarchy at summit. It. It all begins with things that I think most people don't think about when dog training comes to mind first, like that self-regulation, like the socialization, like just the ability to have quality exposure to something new, keep our shit together, leave, do some latent learning, come back and try again. And I think that's so important. People think dog training and they think, oh, obedience. I will teach my dog to sit, say he'll lay down which, all of which are great skills. Command response, command response. Yeah, all of which are great skills. But I almost feel like, at least for me and my dog, they're secondary for him. Like the emotional regulation is the number one thing that we've focused on thanks to the staff at summit that I'm so glad we focused on. Like, like, does he have a great stay at? No. His stay sucks, but we have plenty of time to work on that. Yeah. And he's still under a year. So I feel like prioritizing these other more empathetic aspects of training is something that people don't think about a lot. Yeah. And, you know, looking at like quality of life for the dog, being able to hold a stay isn't necessarily like improving their quality of life. Of course, it's like good to have a solid stay when we're doing things like. Getting in and out of the car. So we're not like jumping out of the car into a dangerous area or something like that. But overall deepening the understanding of who your dog is and what they need to actually feel good throughout the day is like the backbone of what we should be focusing on first. And I think that is why this summit trainers are so good at what they do, because they understand that that is like the most important key is just building a relationship. And through those level one classes, you're learning your dog. You're maybe actually training with them for the first time ever since, like knowing them, a lot of people, their first introduction, they're like, I've never done any formal training before, and there's so much more than luring a sit that you could get from understanding them and the way it's like. So it's such a trip, so brief tangent. I had never ridden a horse before in my life, and my partner had a horse when we got together, and it has been in horses her whole life. She has is an equine science major from CSU now is transitioned into just full, sending it into dogs. But I wrote a horse for the first time and the feeling of like communicating with an animal that size while you're sitting on it was something that I had just, like, never experienced before. Yeah. Like, whoa, I squeeze with my foot and you just go that way. This is insane to me. Yeah. Or I accidentally pull to this side and you're like, we're stopping. Yeah. What are we doing? Dude, you have no idea what you're doing back there. Yeah. So and I kind of equate that to like the feeling you can get from deepening your understanding with your dog is is like the feeling I've gotten from teaching them things. And learning with them is like this new sense of teamwork that I just growing up with dogs, I had them. I've loved dogs my whole life. I haven't necessarily done things with dogs my whole life. Right. So breaking into that side of things, I was like, wow, this is such a weird feeling to like, have them look at you. This understanding and knowing that you're there to do something together, it's just like crazy feeling. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, horses are a whole other thing too. I, I've ridden briefly like I took a few lessons in recent years. You want to be humbled to ride a horse? Seriously. Just like parts of your body that you never activate unless you're riding a horse and you're like, what is that? What is that muscle? It hurts now. Yeah. Or like your instructor being like, you just, you know, you just gave him a cue and I'm like, I didn't do anything like, no, you moved your foot. You moved your heel. It dug in. Yeah. I'm just trying to not fall off. I don't know what it's like. Training dogs can be the same. You're not giving a clear message. I have one of my dogs, Atlas standard poodle. He is the type of dog where, if you're unclear in what you want from him, he just starts doing everything. He's just. Yes, he just starts offering behaviors and he's like. What do we like? Work. Work with me. Work with me. And then rue, uh, one of our Laursen. If you are unclear, he gets a little frustrated, and he's just like. I'm done. I'm done with this. You don't know what? You don't know what you want from me. So, like, you figure out what you need, and then you let me know, and we can we can try again. Come back to me when you're ready. Yeah. Don't waste my time. Yeah. I need you to watch a video on this, because. What is a Laursen? Uh, Laursen. So it's German for little lion dog. Oh. So it's kind of. Is it like a cousin of the Shitzu? They. I guess they sort of look similar in ways. So they're like, breed clip is full jacket with bracelets on the front and back. And then they have like a little shaved spot on their front legs. And then essentially from like the last rib to a poof on their tail, they're shaved clean. Oh wow. Yeah. Interesting. So they're they're super rare. There was actually like none in Colorado until we got one. There's probably a couple hundred inches the entire country. Wow. Elastically. Yeah. Cool. They're super low on the axes. Like registry list. Okay. They almost went extinct. And then there was a woman in the 70s, started importing dogs from Europe and trying to get their numbers up a little bit, and they're in a better place now than they were before, for sure. We have two, and then our friend in Denver has a couple, and then we placed one with our other friend in Fort Collins. So now there's probably like 6 or 7 Louch in in the state. But you started the trend. Yeah. Nice. That's awesome. They're like medium sized. Yeah. Probably about like £1,617 15 to 17. That's awesome. Sorry. Tangent. But yeah I had to I had to ask. So I agree. You mentioned the backbone of good training is understanding what your dog needs out of, you know, any given day basically which can be different dog to dog. There's some base sets of needs, right, that obviously they need fulfilled. They all need food, they all need water, they all need exercise. But can you speak to like some of the more unique needs that you've heard of or that you've experienced with your own dogs that some people find themselves having to fulfill? Hmm. That was a good question. So I think that. Something that I see a lot is people get a purebred dog, and a lot of the times there's like a level of breed predictability that you can get out of. Like they just have a set of characteristics aside from their individual personalities. Like someone will get a hound and be surprised at their prey drive, for example. So I would say like, that's kind of the category I would put that question into is like breed specific. A lot of it is breed specific. Like, why is my border collie so intense? You know, why is my cattle dog is nippy or something? And it's like there is a we need to give them a little grace because they are who they are and they cannot help. Some of that stuff is so deeply ingrained in their genetics that, like, you're a border collie, is probably going to be a little weird and intense. That's just like who they are as dogs. So of course you can be open, accept whatever into your home. But I think doing a little bit of research into like what you are likely getting when you're getting a dog is important, and that I think that plays a big role into like numbers and shelters and dogs that end up back in like the fostering and rescue system is because people just aren't fully aware of what the needs are for the dogs that they're getting. They think, this is a cute dog. I want this dog. They get it. Realize this does not fit my lifestyle at all. If I I do not do nature, for the most part, I'm an inside person. My hobbies include indoor human. Yeah, I'm an inside guy. Like I make music, I play video games, I edit things. I do a lot of like computer based or like in my own head type things. I don't mind sitting outside sometimes, but like, I don't go on a lot of hikes and stuff. Yeah. So if I had a dog that was like full go all the time, crazy amounts of energy like insatiable, I would never be able to keep up for that. I would struggle with meeting that need, and then they would struggle because their needs not met. And it's just like, even though I care about the dog, the dog loves me. It's maybe not the best fit for a long term. Like it doesn't mesh as well, right? So I could see that being a big problem for, for some people and. Right. Well, and a lot of people, I think this is about reframing how we think of what we have with our dogs, because what we have with them is a relationship, right? Yeah. And there is an element of compatibility there that has to be considered. And I think that gets overlooked a lot. Like we often oversimplify it. We're like, oh, well, if I adopted on this my dog like, I've got I've got it. It's good. It doesn't matter. Like I think it's cute. Fell in love with how it looked and how it acted in the shelter. So, you know, that's that. But if we think of it in the same way we think of relationships that we have with other humans, I think that benefits both parties, because then you're not just. Pigeonholing yourself into a black and white situation that might end up becoming really messy or just really difficult for both of you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously like I have different friend groups where we have different like core things that align where that's the thing that we've, like, connected over. Right. So I think that you can have that with a dog. It doesn't need to be like a perfect everything is is mesh. I think that there's like my dogs help me be more outside oriented. They help me take more time to just, like walk with them and be present. And and that's good. It's good. They're drawing out the parts of parts of us that sometimes we shove down and say, no, we're not gonna do that, you know? And then as a sense of like doing right by them and honoring a relationship that you've embarked on with them, you're like, okay, let's go do what you want to do right, right now. So yeah, absolutely. Some give and take for sure. But yeah, I have a balance. Any good relationship. Yeah. Needs are being met on both sides right. Yeah I've I it's like my time working with rescues taught me a lot. And my time since then I've. I've learned a lot as well. I'm 34. Throughout my life, I've had a lot of different opinions on dogs. The more information I've received and the more perspective I've gained, I've changed my thoughts. I used to be firmly adopt. Don't shop. I used to think that, like breeding dogs was wrong. I do not feel that way anymore. I think that there are credible people doing both things. There are some people that want healthier, happier dogs to continue on. And and obviously if you get a healthy, happy dog that was like raised well as a puppy, I experienced puppy culture. You're getting a neater package to move forward with the reduced incidences of health problems hip dysplasia, cataracts, cancers, things like that. And that sucks to like have something that you love. That's your whole world that just like has terrible genetics and like a bad history, horrible feeling. Yeah, there's literally nothing you can do for them. So I think that, like, there's a side of the coin that's like people irresponsibly. Producing dogs and not doing their due diligence to make sure that they are like making healthy, long lasting. They don't live long enough as it is. So like we want to get the long the longevity of a good, happy life with like good mobility and good structure. And then I think that there are plenty of rescues that play on people's emotions and don't always try to place dogs with people that are the right fit for them. Yeah, you're just trying to get them out the door. Yes. Yeah. And I do see a lot of the fallout of that sometimes where somebody ends up with a dog and it was like misrepresented what their personality type is like, what behavioral issues they had. And then all of a sudden you've got this person who just like, has a big heart, fell in love with the dog and is now in a situation where they are looking at like a very expensive road, a very time consuming road ahead of them. And it's not fair to anybody. It's not fair to them. It's not fair to the dog. It's like, yeah, it's so it's so complicated. So I think that like it just goes back to like doing your research, understanding what you want. Out of a companion before you. It's like really exciting. I know it's really exciting to like what you want to get a dog, and you think this dog right in front of me right now, how could I say no? Yeah, yeah. Think about getting a dog. Like getting a tattoo. Like. Yeah. Just because somebody has availability, right? Then. Yeah. Doesn't mean you should, like, go with the first option. That's a very good analogy. Yeah. Yes. Yes definitely. Oh goodness. Yeah. It's it is really complicated. I feel like most things about the world of dogs are far more nuanced than most people realize. Yes, there's a lot of gray area out there, I think for sure. Absolutely. And I feel like it's worth, you know, a lot of times we think of getting a dog as something so simple. But with every like with everything I post on Otto's page that's trading related, I'm like, I'm not a trainer. This is an unregulated industry, very unregulated, completely unregulated. Anyone can call themselves a dog trainer. They don't need any accreditation to run a business in that way. So with everything I post, I'm putting a source up because I want to send the message that, you know, before you take something and run with it, you really you should look into it. Yeah, you should get yourself some more information? And even if I know that I've done my research, I still I want to give people the impression like, it doesn't matter. Like, don't just don't just take my word for it. I want you to go look at this source I'm putting in front of you. And then I want you to Google outside of that, like, go like, look around, dig, you know, look at a few pieces of contradictory information even, and weigh the options. Perspective is so important. And everything in life beyond dogs. And I think it's like people who are closed off to new perspectives, you're going to plateau, you're just going to plateau no matter what you're doing, whether it's like learning a new skill or just like how you feel about things that are happening in the world. Like you should just be open to receiving information. At the very least, that's what brains are for. Yes, receiving and storing information. So thinking critically. Yeah, I mean that's that's incredibly important. I heard someone say I think her name is Lori Williams. She's a she's an accredited trainer. The canine diva is her handle on social. And I heard her say, and it just stuck in my brain because it just hit me with so much impact. She's like, I don't train the way I do because science supports it. I'm glad. Like, it's nice that science supports it. I'm glad that there is evidence showing that the way I do things. Is known to be affected, but that's not why I do it that way. I train the way I do because it reflects the kind of relationship I want to have with the dogs. Right. And she was saying, so, you know, rather than, you know, don't look at my relationship and say, oh, I have to do it exactly that way, because she's telling me, look inward and ask yourself, well, what do you what do you want your relationship to look like? That might not be the same for everyone, but ask yourself that. Start there and then go apply information that you can find and do what you can to create that relationship that you want. That's great. That's a great perspective to have. I think that feeds into like how many different kinds of training there are out there and how forestry works great for a lot of people. It's not for everybody. And that's okay. Yeah, there's science backing a lot of different things. The thing about science, science is so unbiased when this happens, this is the result verified, tested on, you know, through through many instances. So yeah That's a that's a great way to think about it. Like what do you want out of your relationship. How do you achieve what you want that's applicable to so many things in life. Yeah. And that's like something that I see reflected as a team member. Is summit the way that the people that work there engage with each other and engage with other humans in general is is very reflective of the way that they train dogs. Yes, they put out what they want to get back. And I think that that's like such an important thing to carry with you in all of your interactions in general. Put out what you want to get back, like you're having a crappy day and you're rude to somebody for no reason. Like that sucks. And now that it just feels bad, putting negativity out in the world can feel negative. Overwhelmingly so. I love my job because it gives me the opportunity to work with people who care about people. And I appreciate being part of a team of humans that are making an impact in other people's lives. Absolutely. I've seen people. You know, come into the inbox or leave a voicemail and I'm talking to them on the phone and they are just distressed. They do not know what to do. They do not know what their options are. And just like knowing that when I pass them along to our training team, they're being met with like compassion and understanding, no judgment, and simply looking at it objectively and saying, these are our options moving forward. Judgment free. The choice is yours. Let's like decide what we want to do. What are the what's the result that you're hoping to see? Can we get there. Yeah. Yeah I mean that is huge. And as a client that can be felt, um, it can really be felt. And another part of dog training is a service that gets overlooked by some trainers. Is the majority not even half the majority of your job is teaching and empowering the people you're working with. It's it's often it's so easy to say, okay, it's dog training. I'm focused on focusing on the dog. I'm focusing on a result with behavior and something that summit does such a good job about is understanding that in order to help animals, you have to help people. Yeah, it's a complicated position to be in for sure. I think a lot. I think what makes a great trainer is that, like a lot of dog people don't necessarily possess people skills the same, same way. They're invested in dogs for a number of reasons. But sometimes the reason is just that. It's like easier, right, than being super invested in people. So it's a hard line for sure. And I think that everybody is always like very, very aware of the fact that they are playing a primary role of like a liaison between people and their dogs and then like figuring out it's not just figuring out what the dog needs, but it's also kind of figuring out what is this person need from their dog, and how do we, like, meet in the middle to find some better form of coexisting than is going on right now? Is that like friction all the time? When you get a dog and you think, oh, it's going to be my buddy is my companion, we're gonna get along so good. And then like, shit hits the fan and you're like sunshine and rainbows. Oh, man, I don't know what to do. Like, you're stressed all the time. And now I'm stressed all the time. And now everybody's stressed. Yes. Chaos ensues. Yeah, I remember I was sitting with Amber at Friends With Dogs a couple of weeks ago, and that was a day where I had taken Otto for a walk. And he, like, we've made a lot of progress with his. Frustration reactivity, because for him, that's the basis of all of his reactivity. It's, oh, I can't access that thing. I'm really mad about that. Like, it's very much a toddler esque. I can't have what I want when I want it, so I'm gonna yell about it situation. Anyway, I taken him for a walk. It was a difficult walk for him. He was just not having an easy day. He was on high alert for a lot of things, and I told her about it and she said to me, and this might seem so small, but she was like, she's like, I can like I can feel that that caused stress for you. It made a difference to me because I'm like, how many people say that? It's just I mean, it's something that I'm sure is second nature to her. But what she led with was like empathy for the situation. And it's a very human thing to do. And it's just it's things like that that make that make the difference. I have like not used any of my prompts, but we've had an amazing session, I feel like and I remember talking with Angela about this when I interviewed her, though there's a lot to know about dogs, like there's a lot of information out there that's valuable, um, that, you know, a lot of studies that have happened, a lot of things we can confidently say we know about them. There's also a lot we don't yet know about them. There are new things being discovered, like in terms of understanding dogs. We have not exhausted that. Like there's plenty left for us to discover. Another thing that I can feel from the team at summit, and I felt it very strongly from Angela when I was talking to her, because she was telling me about her continuing education. That she's always doing is a foundation of curiosity about everything. It's very like there's a lot of humility there. There's a lot of, well, you know, here's what my experience and my learning has taught me. However, you can feel that everyone's still open to absorbing new things, and I feel like that is wildly important. I've experienced this when I've talked, when I've tried to nerd out with people that are not down to nerd out about dogs, and I'm like, guess what? I found out today when I discovered the dominance theory is has no basis in fact. I was like, guess what I found out? And I was like, this is great. Like mind blown, like all this stuff that we've been told it's not true. And you try to tell it to someone that's not prepared. To unlearn that. And it is a really awkward, difficult conversation because they don't want to hear it now. Yeah. The the whole like alpha structure being like the guy that did that study debunked it himself. He came out and was like, this is not accurate. It's just like, just not I should not be known for this. Yes, please, please stop saying this. Like, you don't have to be the Alpha in your house. That's not really the way the dynamic works. It was like, yeah, it's like a study on like wolves of family unit of wolves living in captivity. It's like a brother for wolves. Yeah, yeah. So I, I talked about this with my cousin who's a trainer and read through all the science and. Yeah, it was just bad science. It was one study. Yeah. It was not repeated, you know. So yeah. But with but my point being like for some reason and I have theories about it, but even like just dog people or animal people in general, I've experienced we formed some really strong, really black and white opinions. And if you're not in the headspace to like go of them, it's like there is no it doesn't matter how many facts or science you've got, there is no getting through. And so I like, as someone who's unlearned plenty of myself as I've done research about dogs, like it is so crucial to lead with curiosity no matter how much you know, because you never. Once upon a time, there were plenty of traders who bought into dominance theory who were experienced and didn't work that way. Right? Yeah, I think that just goes back to just being open. That's critically thinking. And the trainers are, I think that they are just so interested in it that the prospect of like something new is exciting for them. Right? They're like, yeah, I want to hear this. Even if I don't agree with it, I want to hear it. I want to know. I want to understand where it's coming from. Right. And where where I can go from that. Can I integrate it? Does it make sense to me? Does it align with what I want to achieve as like a trainer? And when I'm working with people, if we're more curious when we approach our dogs, there's more for us to learn, not just about them and what they need, but there's something for us to empathize with. They're like like my dog reacting when we're out for a walk. My first instinct is often like, oh my God. Uh, why are we dealing with this? But in practicing curiosity, I am more able to step back and say, okay, well, we're having a hard time. Let's look at the reason behind it. Like, what could be causing this? Rather than just skipping that and going straight into frustration by questioning what's going on, I could realize, oh my God, I did not realize that we are only five feet away from this fence, and there's a dog standing behind it right behind me. Of course, that's causing. Frustration. Or there's a touch football game and a loud motorcycle and mosquitoes and fucking people walk in there like there's a lot going on here. And that curiosity lets you be like, oh, if I were in this situation as my dog, I'm thinking we're going to have a nice, quiet stroll in the park. And then we happen upon this cacophony of scenarios. It might throw me off a little bit. Okay, I get it. You know, it's true. I think that oftentimes they don't have as much like constant white noise of thought in their head. Yeah. And they're just really they're experiencing things that is so easy for us to overlook and just be like, what's the big deal, dude? Like it's there. There's that meme of the person that's like going up all the steps in one step. Mhm. It would be like going for a walk with your dog and then like getting frustrated that they don't want to walk in. Every step in between is like loud truck kids running around dog behind a fence. And we're just like not looking at that sometimes. And I think that yeah, just like the curiosity of saying what what is making you act like this right now? Like, let me let me take a look around. Sometimes on a walk. I think we go into it with like, we just want to walk, right? This is like a another task for us to complete in our our daily regimen of my steps in. Yeah. Shit that we have to do every single day. It's like, all right, now let's go check this off the list. We're gonna go for a walk, and then we're on the walk. And our dogs, like, I don't want to just walk the whole time. I want to, like, sniff around, and I want to stop. And I want to look at that. And maybe now I want to go over there, but I can't go over there, and I'm mad. Understanding that his reactivity comes from frustration, it's like not every dog comes from that place, right? Some dogs are anxious, some dogs are scared. Some dogs are just not happy when they see other things. So when it comes to like their perspective of learning things about dogs, like I just learned about appeasement licking. When I got my last puppy, I didn't really know. That was the thing where I don't know much about it. Tell me more. Yeah, so little did I know that when puppies are or dogs in general, but puppies oftentimes will give you kisses to appease you because they're like done participating in a, in something. So what can sometimes seem like oh my dogs, oh my dog's like loving this. It's giving me kisses. They're really just like want you to stop. They're trying to tell you. Yeah. They're trying to, like, appease you. Like you say, okay, is this what you want? Please stop. Wow. And I did not. I didn't know that. That's something that, um, my partner taught me. Thank you, Erica, for teaching me things about dogs. That's new for me. That's new information for me right there. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah, well, and then licking can be a stress thing too, for like, it's not affection. They're just like, I have to lick something because I'm. Yeah, that's a way of them to self-soothe is like, well, I'm gonna lick this or, you know, learning tail positioning when they're wagging their tail. People will say, I didn't see it coming. He was wagging his tail, but in what way? It's like the different types of smiles for a human. Were you smiling like this or were you smiling like this? Like, yeah, yeah, I don't like it. Um, so I'm working on creating a directory of training organizations for people that's free that they can get so that if they want to look into quality training or, or find a business with specific parameters like summit is female owned. And if they want to easily have those details at hand and weigh their options, I'm working on that. So my question for you is, what should dog owners look for in a training organization before they choose to move forward with it? And are there any red flags that you can identify that goes back to it being an unregulated industry, right, where literally you can have zero credentials, no formal training, and operate a business and take people's money. It's scary. It's a really scary thought. And I would be lying if I didn't say that. We definitely see people who have had subpar experiences, other places where they're asked to do things that they were not comfortable with doing, and train their dogs in a manner that, like, did not align with their morals on a like basic level. Yeah. So I think that, oh, it's tough. It's hard to know because, you know, obviously Google reviews are great. You should definitely. I never read the five star reviews. When I'm looking at something, I say show me the low reviews. I want to understand why these people are leaving less than five stars. I want to know their perspective. So I think that obviously a little bit of research on the internet is good, just to make sure that there and, you know, talk to somebody, call. I'm so happy to talk to people on the phone and to like, answer. I love answering questions from people who, like, legitimately want to know what the answers are. Yeah. So ask what? Like what's your training methodology? Like what are your principles? Do they align with mine? I'm not gonna sit here and say that there are not people out there that like E-collar training works for me. If some people want that, some people want to drop their dog off at a board and train with at a place that uses an e-collar and pick them up a few weeks later and with like instructions. It may not be the best practice. In reality, I don't know. I'm not a trainer, I'm not a scientist. But. It's driving is really about making sure that it aligns with what you want out of your relationship with your dog. And then, of course, there are things like actual accreditations that trainers can get that signify areas that they have put their time and effort into. Like, I spent my time learning this. So there are a lot of letters that can come after people's names. I do not know what they all mean necessarily, but I know that finding trainers who are presenting the fact that they do have credentials, they have invested not only time, but money into their education so that they can provide a better service to people. Generally speaking, if you see anybody that is like Cfpa certified, they know the foundations of clicker and marker training. They know how to shape behaviors with your dog, and that's always a good step. It's like knowing that the person actually has some sort of formal knowledge that has been passed down to them. Yeah. And I think that there's like also a degree of if they're not willing to invest in their career and their pool of knowledge, then maybe you should be wary of investing your money into something that is like, not really backed in anything but opinion. YouTube Academy is very deep. You can learn a lot on the internet these days. And like, that's not to say that you can't learn good things on the internet, but when there's not a funnel directing, saying this is what we're learning and these are like the key components of how to execute the thing that we're learning, I think you can just get like lost. Yeah, you can get lost in the sauce there. Yeah. So absolutely. Well and people do apprenticeship work as well in this industry. Right. So. Maybe if they list it like it's worth looking at. Oh, they apprentice with this organization, right? Um, you know, it's worth connecting the dots. Goes to show that people who care about what they're doing invest the time, invest the money, and invest their resources into making sure that what they're giving to the people that are spending money with them for their services are like actually getting something worthwhile out of it. Being unregulated is is scary. And there's like a lot of you can end up in a sticky situation. Dog training is not cheap. You can pay exponentially more than you can pay for a good trainer for bad training. There's just like, no way to know fully, unless you're doing your due diligence and making sure that, like, the website's going to look good, probably right. People are always going to present something in the most like enticing way. That's like what business is is, is selling your services to people. It's marketing. That's marketing one on one. Right? So don't just stop at the marketing. Look a little bit deeper. Make sure that, like the people that you're that are teaching you something, actually know something and make sure that what they know and what the knowledge they're going to be trying to pass on to you is the knowledge that you want to be using with your dog in the future. Yeah, it doesn't sit right with you. There's a reason. Yeah, trust your gut 100%. Trust your gut. If you're in a room and somebody is telling you to do something that you do not feel comfortable with. You need to trust that I. I will not name names, but I will say that I, I talked to a client who had an experience with another trainer, and they said they were on a walk and their dog was reactive, and when their dog had a reactive moment, the trainer told them to grab their dog, pull them to the ground and hold them on the ground. It shook them to their core. When they heard that, they were like, oh my God, I don't want to do that to my dog. And the trainers, like, that's what you need to do. So if you're in a situation like that and you don't feel comfortable doing it, it's okay to just not do it. You don't have to regret it later. I think advocating for your dog is like, it's so awkward sometimes. It really is like even saying, no, you can't pet my dog when somebody asks you if they actually ask before they just reach which is which, they don't always. They don't always. But I do feel like when talking about like consent and touching and things like that, I do think that we're going towards that being closer to the norm of like, hey, can I approach your animal? Right. I spent years working security and I've when I started hiring people for that position, I told them this is a series of uncomfortable interactions. That is like the number one thing that you just have to get over. It is a series of weird conversations with other other humans that you just have to have sometimes. And that's like what advocating for your dog is, is. It's gonna be weird sometimes. If you're a people pleaser especially, you've got to tell people no and like, you've just got to be there for them. And if you're gonna, like, feel bad about it later and you know that you're gonna feel bad about it later, then apply that information in the moment and just don't do it. Atlas was one of the first dogs that I've had where I learned that I had to speak up for him because I saw him end up in situations that made me feel uncomfortable after, and I didn't want that for him. Situations where like, I felt too weird saying no to somebody that wanted to just pet my dog because they hadn't seen a poodle in a full show cut before. And it's like, yeah, dude, it didn't go well a few times where somebody would reach for him and then he would, like, bark and shy away from them. And he's got a loud bark, is a big dog, and it's to see somebody be a little taken back and frightened by the bark. And I know that now he feels very uncomfortable and he's looking at me like, hey, help me all the stress. Yeah. Elevated. Yeah. And it's ultimately that's a worse situation for everybody to end up in than just saying, no, you can't pet my dog. I'm sorry. Yeah. So it could it be awkward? It's okay to be awkward. Totally. It's like it's life. It's like. I mean, I think of it like, not to. I say this every interview, not to anthropomorphize, but I have a stepson. It's kind of similar where you're like, okay, that's my kid. Like, I'm not going to question advocate advocating for him if something's awkward, if he's feeling stressed, if he's feeling uncomfortable, I'm gonna advocate for him because I'm the adult. Yeah. They're kind of like what you what you have to do for them. Kids are often overlooked and not heard. Yeah. And we do the same thing to dogs pretty often. Yes. Yeah. And they can't even speak. So we have to like, be more I think it's an argument to be more vigilant about it for sure. Definitely. Yeah. It's okay to be weird, guys. It's okay to be weird.