Amy Creaven: A Perspective Shift on Muzzles

Hannah and this week's guest, Amy Creaven, dive into a topic that often comes with a heavy stigma: muzzles. 

If you’ve ever looked at a dog wearing a muzzle and felt sorry for them, or automatically assumed that the dog was muzzled because they are a bite risk, you’re certainly not alone. I’ve thought those things before. I think most people have. But like most things in life, there is more to a muzzled dog than meets the eye, and it is worth shifting your perspective on muzzles before jumping to conclusions. 

Listen and discover:

• Reasons behind the muzzle stigma
• The variety of reasons (right and wrong) someone may choose to muzzle their dog
• Different types of muzzles
• Key strategies for using muzzles to expand your dog's world rather than restrict it

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Transcript

Welcome back to the subwoofer. I'm your host, Hannah Barnes. I not so secretly love saying I'm your host. If you haven't noticed, today we're diving into a topic that often comes with a heavy stigma muzzles. If you've ever looked at a dog wearing a muzzle and felt sorry for them, or automatically assumed that the dog was muzzled because they were a bite risk, you're certainly not alone. I've thought those things before. I think most people have, but like most things in life, there is more to a muzzle dog than meets the eye, and it is worth shifting your perspective on muzzles before jumping to conclusions. I sat down with Amy Craven, who is not only a fantastic dog trainer, but the owner of Trust Your Dog, a business here in Northern Colorado that creates custom fit, comfortable, colorful, safe and effective muzzles for any dog. Amy does such a phenomenal job of addressing the muzzle stigma, the variety of reasons someone may choose to muzzle their dog, both right reasons and wrong reasons. Different types of muzzles and key strategies to make sure a muzzle becomes an effective tool to expand your dog's world, rather than restrict it. I learned so much during this interview, and I promise that you will too. I'm so excited. Let's get into it. Oh! I'm really, really, really excited to be talking to Amy Craven. Amy started her adult life as a registered nurse, working with patients in intensive care before going through the care and prior academy and becoming a certified dog trainer. Prior to Covid, she frequently worked with dogs who needed to wear a muzzle for a wide variety of reasons, and she started making muzzles in 2019 when she couldn't get her clients into muzzles, also for a variety of reasons. Amy owns the local business here in Fort Collins. Trust your dog and makes custom muzzles and gear in a variety of beautiful colors and sizes and shapes for all kinds of people and their dogs. And I'm so thrilled to have her. Thank you so much for joining me today, Amy. Yeah, thanks for having me. It's I'm looking forward to this conversation. Yes. Me too. So we're digging into muzzles today, which so the reason I'm so excited to talk about this topic is on a lot of previous episodes, previous interviews. The stuff that we've covered is stuff that I had started to dive into already before we sat down and talked. But this the concept of all things, muzzles and their benefits and um, just everything that surrounds them is brand new to me. It's really, really new. So that just makes me thrilled to dig in further. But before we get into all that stuff, I wanted to ask you, as a trainer, a dog trainer. What led you to start working with dogs that needed to wear muzzles and ultimately start a whole business centered around that? Yeah. So the dogs that I was working with, I was working with extreme aggression cases, um, and behavior, other behavioral problems as well. But a lot of inter household aggression or human directed aggression or just dog, dog directed aggression. And I was working with a lot of vet behaviorists. And, you know, we were getting a lot of progress, but we would get to a point in the training with these dogs where the owners had these goals of the dogs having other doggy friends or meeting new humans or reintegrating into the households. And as we know, the best predictor of future behavior in dogs is past behavior. And so when you have a dog that has delivered significant injuries to other beings, be it human or canine or other, um, you always want to like be extra careful with that reintroduction or introduction just to start with. Um, and what that means is that you're decreasing proximity so that there's this risk of this dog putting their teeth on another living thing and causing significant damage. And usually when we get to that point, you're like 95% sure that it's going to go really, really well. But there's this 1% chance that, you know, there's a variable that you didn't account for or that comes up in the situation that you're in because. Our environments are forever changing and they always will. And you can't predict everything. And so in those cases, you want to have an extra barrier just as backup to be like, hey, if this goes wrong, we're going to have a barrier. So that injury can't physical injury can't happen. Um, that's not to say that there isn't, you know, mental injury, you know, because it's still traumatizing to have a dog hit you or try to bite you even when they're wearing a muzzle. But at least there's no physical damage there. Um, and so we would get to this point with these dogs, and I would hit a roadblock with these clients because they didn't feel comfortable putting a muzzle on their dog, because they were scared that their dog would be judged. They were scared that it would look scary, and they were afraid that their dog wouldn't be comfortable in the muzzle, because it does take some time to get them comfortable and muzzles. And it was just like an overall fear. And then when they got muzzles and started working with them, a lot of the times the dogs had a hard time adjusting to wearing them because they weren't comfortable and they weren't a great fit. Muzzles that are restrictive or too short or too big and floppy. Um, a really uncomfortable to wear. It's kind of like wearing a pair of glasses that just keep sliding down your nose or, you know, like your the settings are just wrong and they're uncomfortable. So these dogs would be uncomfortable wearing the muzzle and they're then their behavior is suppressed or different from what you would expect in a normal scenario if they weren't wearing the muzzle. So there were a lot of different variables there. When I was trying to get my clients into muzzles so that we could progress in training. But for those clients who did get into muzzles, or did start having their dogs wear their muzzles, they started to realize how stressed out they were themselves when their dogs weren't in muzzles. And so as we know, like. Your emotions always affect your dog's emotional state and vice versa. And so when the client could relax because they knew that there wasn't going to be any physical damage done, they could then effectively train their dog and relax on walks so that, you know, walks in the neighborhood became decompressing instead of stressful. And so you started to see this exponential progress in their training, as everybody is able to relax and take a deep breath and think through scenarios that they previously would panic in. Yeah, that's that's incredible. I was just refreshing my memory in this conversation I had with another trainer about how when dealing with behavior that could be threatening or, you know, something that could be a very real possibility, somebody getting injured, like the stress is equal on both sides of the equation between the human and the dog. And we often don't do enough addressing the human side of that so that we can effectively lead the dog to learn comfort, learn a little bit more self-regulation and stuff like that, so that that's an amazing thing. And I'm sure that you've seen some incredible success stories from this implementation and that that must be incredibly validating and rewarding for you. Absolutely. It's. I mean, I going from training dogs and having lots of interactions with the clients and their animals and seeing their progress on like a hands on basis to just seeing the muscle side of things. So I don't get as much hands on experience as I used to with my clients, or a hands on interaction with them, but when I do, it's very positive. Yeah, that's fantastic, I so I also want to ask you, as we're talking about your trajectory into your business, why did you name your business Trust Your Dog? I have a feeling that there's a great story behind it. There's some good stuff there. I, um, my original business name was Craven Good Behavior because that's my last name. But I took a break from training a long time ago and then came back and decided to rebrand. And when I did, it was kind of a dual reasoning for trust your Dog one like, I want you to be able to trust your dog and that your dog can trust you and that you guys have this symbiotic relationship. You know where you're going through life together, and you can trust them to be safe and make good choices. But there's also this concept specifically in well, I think in all dog training is that the dog is is responding the way that they feel is correct. Right. So if they're barking and lunging at another oncoming dog, there's a reason for it. And having the trust in your dog and say, oh, there's something about this that is upsetting you, what do I need to do to? Or what do I need to adjust to support you and teach you? Maybe a different response, you know, or maybe this is just not the right scenario for you. So learning to trust your dog and listen to them and respond appropriately. And to go back even further with that name. Um, I spent a couple of years doing search and rescue, and there's a big concept there that you should always trust your dog because the dog is always right, like you've trained them to search and find these people. And if your dog is telling you there's somebody there and you can't find them, there's always a reason for it. And usually you find out like a day or two later, like, oh, the wind was going, you know, southwest. And, you know, there was a lot of heat and the odor from this human was popping up and over a mountain and hitting your dog. And so the dogs there was always like, if the dogs had wings, they would find everybody, you know, they would just follow the scent. Um. But they don't. And so they alert and they tell you things that you're not expecting. But if you trust them, they are almost always right. Wow. Not always right. So yeah, that's that's so fascinating. And it makes me really, really curious about that philosophy. And search and rescue specifically makes perfect sense because we're utilizing the natural ability of a species that we don't share in order to achieve something. So yeah, it makes absolute sense that you have to trust in that it's superior to what we have. I love that, and I also love the trusting of your dogs reasoning for their reaction to something, whatever that that reaction may be. It's, you know, it's kind of that I think I heard someone else say, I forget the name of the trainer, but however your dog is responding in a given situation is appropriate for their emotions. It may not be ideal for the situation and for the entire context and everyone involved, but it is an appropriate emotional response based on what is happening inside them. And that's so important because I think as humans, we've in recent years been doing more work to validate each other and our children. And, you know, kids were teaching young people or just anyone that were sharing our lives with in the same way. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Emotions may not be what you want them to be, but they are there and they are real. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And invalidating them will fix absolutely nothing. Exactly. You will make zero progress with that. Mhm. Yeah. Well so speaking of just you know invalidation or jumping to judgments and conclusions and things like that, this topic of muzzles is heavily stigmatized. And I'm very curious about your take on why most people or a lot of people tend to jump to the conclusion that muzzles are cruel or not appropriate. Yeah. So a lot of people think that muzzles are cruel and not appropriate because. They feel like they're restrictive and a lot of muzzles are restrictive. There are two main types of muzzles. You've got your occlusion muzzles, and those are the muscles that you tend to see in veterinarian offices because they're cheap and they're easy and they're vast. And those are, um, generally cloth muzzles that are designed to keep the dog's mouth closed, because if they can't open their mouth, they can't bite, right. And then you have your basket muscles and a lot of the designs on the basket muzzles taper at the end, which are kind of restrictive or taper towards the tip of their nose, which is rather restrictive for the dog. So they don't open their mouth as far as they could or should be able to to be safe. But there are a lot of basket muzzles out there that, um, it's really like putting an exercise pen around your dog's head for, for lack of a better term. But yeah, it's it's really putting a barrier between the, the sharp end of the dog and anything that's not supposed to be in that sharp under the dog, be it, you know, somebody's leg or a rock that they shouldn't be eating. Um, and then a lot of people use muzzles for a lot of different reasons, and people just assume that. I think I hear Hannibal, the term Hannibal Lecter a lot. You know, popular pop culture has these muscles as a super restrictive device, but it's not. And what I've noticed is that when dogs are wearing muzzles, it really does expand their world. So, you know, the dogs that were eating rocks or sticks or things that they shouldn't eat can now explore their world without having their owner have to reach into their mouth every five minutes or swallowing those things, and then you end up with obstructive bowel surgery, you know, a couple thousand dollars later, and it also gives them access to to move and run around when it's appropriate for them to do so. With the extra security of, hey, if a situation arises, there's a barrier between them and somebody or something that they might hurt. So it really does expand their world versus like bring it in. I'm also seeing a shift. In our culture as well, where when I'm out and about and seeing dogs in muzzles, people are a lot more respectful. And I don't see anybody or hear a ton of people getting blasted for having their dog in a muzzle anymore. And if they are, it's because that the person saying something is uneducated and they just haven't gotten there yet. And that's okay. That's a hard thing to stomach for a lot of people, you know, because we are such a social species to have, you know, colleagues or friends or peers shun us is really, really hurtful and really painful. So we tend to avoid it in a lot of people, avoid putting those muzzles on and then keep their dogs in the backyard, or really tight leashes or only certain situations or, you know, join the Midnight Dog Walkers Club and just never see anybody. So yeah, that I mean, that social pressure is really powerful and fear of judgment, you know, like I had another conversation with someone else about that, the pressure to correct, like if your dog is reacting largely for the reason of showing that you intend to do something about it Because what we're concerned about is perception, which I think is a very human tendency. But yeah, it's I mean, that that has a huge influence over the choices that we make. And it is far easier said than done to to set that aside and just go forth with what you believe is right. Anyway. So it's it's super encouraging to hear that more people are accepting of seeing a dog just in public with a muzzle on, and I love that, and I hope that that continues. I think automatically it's like you said, these pop culture references, they really have an influence over how we perceive things more than we realize, so much more than we realize. So the Hannibal Lecter thing, like, you know, you see a basket muzzle on. And I think that that is a component of how people interpret that imagery is just as restrictive as like taking away ability is taking away not, you know, not just the bite ability, but like restricting so much. And there's just always more to it than that. There's always more nuance. And like you said, sometimes it's not even about biting. That. That's something that I have not thought of before. As someone who has had to remove several things from my puppy's mouth over the past year. Uh, I can completely understand. Um, I mean, yeah, bowel obstruction surgeries are dangerous and expensive. And, I mean, if I have a tool that can prevent that. Great. That would be amazing. Yep. I've also had people use it for allergies, you know, like dogs that are allergic and they're just chowing down on grasses and stuff like that. Like there are so many things that dogs put in their face and yeah, really shouldn't. And it just makes it a lot easier, especially for those dogs that you just can't convince to stop otherwise. Yeah. Which some breeds, I'm sure are more tend to be more predisposed to that. Absolutely. I've got, uh, my brother in law has two doodles and one of whom has ingested a great many things she should not have, including sheet metal screws at one point that needed to be removed. Yeah. They make silly choices. This looks interesting. All right, let's see what happens if I swallow. That'd be edible. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Do you find do you have, like, more clients in a certain breeder breed mix that tend to use muzzles for that purpose or for any other purpose? Or is it kind of a wide swath? It's a wide swath. Um, because I am into making custom muzzles, I tend to make muzzles for dogs that have a wider face. So I see a lot of bully breeds because there are a lot of muzzles on the market that don't fit that wide face as well as they would like it to. So I do see a lot of those, but I also get like Yorkshire terriers and bull terriers, you know, with the sloped faces and um, yeah, dogs with extra long noses or just dogs that humans are like, they're going to be wearing this for a long time and they, they need to be comfortable in it. So of course. Yeah, absolutely. I'm very curious since you customize each muzzle that you make, I know that you've got great tutorials because I've seen them on how to measure your dog correctly for a muzzle, which is great, but have you had to kind of tinker with the design for like a bull terrier nose or like a flat faced face dog. What did that process look like for you? Yeah. So we do, um, change the muzzle shape for those specific facial structures. We've also had some dogs that, you know, the owners like. They have a bump on their nose in this spot. Can we make it so that there isn't a strap there? So we'll do that. Or there have been some genetic defects where like they have an extra, extra short top nose and an extra long bottom jaw, not necessarily like a brachiocephalic underbite, but just like this is awful. Um, but like ugliest dog contest, right? Like, they're super cute. You know, tongues are hanging out because they don't have any teeth on that side and their noses curved to the left. And, you know, they've got like, half an eyeball, but. We've certainly, you know, customized individual muzzles to people specifications to the best of our ability. That's huge. I, I think that level of customization is such a differentiator for you as a I'm an I'm in marketing. That's where I'm going. Great. Um, but that's huge I mean even reputable muzzle brands. Mhm. You can't get that level of customization. So it's amazing that you're able to provide that to anyone and everyone. Yeah, absolutely. Before we completely move on from the stigmatization side of this topic, I'm curious about your knowledge about different laws that exist about muzzling your dogs. I am extremely, extremely unfamiliar with any restrictions or enforcement based on that. Can you tell me a little bit about it? So in particular areas, there's breed specific legislation is the most common thing generally targeting bully breeds in Europe. They just I want to say is the UK, um, they just banned all they call them XL bullies, which is very nonspecific. Um, there's not a specific breed or genetic testing that they're doing to enforce this. It's just a dog type. And all of those dogs are required now to wear muzzles in public, and also to be spayed and neutered within a certain time period. And I'm not sure what the fall or the consequences are for not complying in that particular area. I just haven't looked into it. But I do know that when that legislation came across my website, traffic spiked like a lot and I was like, oh no. But there's also, you know, certain areas in the US where bully breeds are banned. Um, the breed ban in Denver just got lifted last year, I think, so where bullies are now allowed to be there, but there's a special registration process that they have to go through with the city. But previously, you couldn't even drive through the city of Denver with your bully breed dog. Um, because if you were pulled over and had your dog in the car, they could seize it and impound your dog. In order to drive through Denver, they had to be created and muzzled, I believe, was the law. Read it and muzzled in your vehicle. In your vehicle. Yep. Yeah. So breed specific legislation is pretty intense. The other legal requirements and this is not necessarily in the US, um, because public transportation isn't so common and popular here. But in Europe, if you want to take your dog on public transportation, they have to be muzzled. Um, but they are welcomed on, you know, trains and the metro and buses and such like that. They just have to be confined or contained. So they have to wear a muzzle when they get on the bus. But you'll see people, you know, putting their muzzle on, getting on the bus, getting off the bus and taking their muzzle off. The cultures are very different. Wow. Yeah, that's really interesting. So not that I have not visited Europe since childhood, but have you watched this yourself in person? And do you feel like the stigma is far less in that culture? I think yeah, I think the stigma is a lot less, um, especially where, you know, it gives dogs access to places where they wouldn't normally be. Like, we take our dogs to, you know, pubs and walk them around downtown, but they're like, the dogs are everywhere and they're off leash and they're, you know, just hanging out with their owners, and they're perfectly polite and well-behaved. How did we miss that over here? Well, everybody's suing each other over here, so, you know, like, you know, and then you get this fear mongering thing and you're like, okay, well, I can't do this. I have to do that. And, you know, leashes now. And that causes a whole nother problem, because now we've got barrier frustrations and dogs that don't know how to talk dog because they didn't learn. Yeah. Um, you know, all of those things like leashes, muzzles, harnesses, any gear, all of that stuff. I feel like is beneficial when used appropriately, but at the same time, they're all still just tools to help. None of them are solutions, right? And there's so much gear that is available mainstream without any of the necessary context given to the purchaser about how to effectively use this to actually expand your dog's world rather than restricted. Yeah, yeah. And I mean all of that, in addition to the fact that we've lost spaces to, you know, just take our dogs and let them be dogs. Mhm. Thank goodness for things like sniff spot and training walks that some it does and things like that. I think it's yeah we have to work a little harder maybe in this culture to find those spaces with the right companions for ourselves and for our dogs or to I mean, in order to have that, you know, non-judgmental, fulfilling, enriching time for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. We talked about a few different reasons why people might muzzle their dog. At what point do you generally recommend that a dog parent considers getting a muzzle for their dog? Let's let's say, and even though this is not not the sole reason, like for the purpose of bite prevention. Is there a point at which. You can confidently make the judgment like, yes, this is a really good time to start, um, getting your dog used to a muzzle. So this is kind of like a personal decision too. But a lot of it, when working with clients, is discussing, like, what their comfort levels are. And if we've got a significant bite history where, you know, there have been on, you know, maybe the Sophia scale, like a bite scale level of to A to B three. If you guys are familiar with the the bite scale, those are where the dogs are breaking skin. I might bring up muzzle training at the very beginning of that, because muzzle training does take a certain amount of time, but we're doing that layered in with other behaviors that were also starting while managing the dog. But bringing it up early as a possibility gives the client time to kind of wrap their head around the stigma. And that's one of the big things that I try to do is break that stigma by making these muzzles pretty and functional and comfortable. That's why we have so many colors and bling options and such. But yeah, as early as you can. Um, but if we're looking for like pica, you know, restriction, we might also talk about that early on as well, because sometimes the owners just want to be able to put their dog in the backyard. But there's a lot of landscaping rocks. Um, or they don't know what the dog's going to find, or their dog eats poop, or they're trying to figure out their dietary restrictions, and the dog is just eating stuff nonstop. So talking about it earlier rather than later as an option, and then letting the owner come to terms with it on their own and just keeping an open, non-judgmental, normalized conversation about it. How do you typically start those conversations with your clients? Really just discussing, like all of the options at hand. You know, a lot of trainers work on like Levites and, you know, playing the look at that games and you're layering all of your interventions in and trying to. Gauge your client's response to each of those interventions, right. And then putting all of your energy in the interventions that are going to work for that individual. Mhm. Right. You know that's a really big deal because there's a lot of complex internal reasoning that has to happen to get past prioritizing perception. Because obviously you know the facts about an appropriate muzzle, the fact that it can be custom fit so that your dog can be comfortable, the fact that you know it's not going to restrict their breathing or how open their mouth can be, or their ability to drink and eat. All of those facts are there and available. So we've already disarmed the argument that this is somehow harmful just right off the bat to like the dog itself. So the real work is just in setting aside, am I able to really consider this as an option, or is it just too much for me? Which I'm sure is also true for some people? Yeah, and that's absolutely acceptable. It just means that there are going to be. Other management tools that you'll be using, or management strategies that you'll be using instead of the muzzle. My big thing is like if if an owner can't do the thing that you're asking them, then if you're asking them to do it, it's worthless. Right. If they're not going to make it a priority, then it shouldn't be your priority, right? It has to be a conclusion that they come to, right? It's only their choice. And your understanding of that is huge as well, because I think in not just in the dog industry and so many different circles, it's really, really tempting to tell people like, just do it, just do it. I promise it's going to be good. Like, you just got to trust me and this has got to be the way. And it's really tempting to do that when you can when you've seen benefit. Mhm. Um, so I mean I think that that shows a lot of professionalism and just consideration. Yeah. Yeah I mean I get man I just had a, I do zoom consults to, to help people make sure that their measurements are correct. And I got on this call with this person. And within the first five seconds of the call they were crying. And I was like, oh, this is this is bad. And you don't need me to tell you what to do. You need me to be non-judgmental and just support you and whatever it is that you need. And so we spent a good 45 minutes just talking things through and. Yeah. Yeah. Because that damage, that emotional stress is very, very real. I, I had a dog years ago who was severely reactive and anxious and had a ton of genetic stuff going on that caused issues that we we just weren't able to effectively solve. And that stress was a heavy, heavy load for for her and for me, it's like therapy. When you talk to somebody about that who's willing to just listen and help you work through it and empathize and not be judgmental and not see things as so black and white, which I think is human. That's a really human tendency. Um, when things are complicated, we feel the need to make it simpler with really clear labels. And, you know, I wish things were so simple, but they just they rarely are. Right. It's it's so it's so hard to just not. It'd be so black and right. Like I can't get on social media support groups anymore because everybody's just throwing out like one liner and just do this. Just do that. And it's it's not it's not that like they have done everything that they possibly could. Yeah. Otherwise they wouldn't be having this breakdown like, yeah. In a person's judgment of how much they can handle before they're at that point he's theirs to make and nobody else is. Right. Like they are the person who they're the only person that can say, I have done absolutely everything that I can that I you know, I've given as much capacity as I have to this up until this point. And that's important to you. It's so easy to make, to make judgments, huge benefit to the work that you are doing with a tool that is stigmatized. And being able to not only meet people where they are, but then provide it to those who decide it's a good option and make sure that it really is. That best option is a huge part of removing that judgmental approach for a lot of people. So we've talked a lot about the right reasons, or a variety of good reasons to consider using a muzzle on your dog Are there any wrong reasons for muzzling your dog, and can you expand on those a little bit? Yeah, absolutely. So the biggest one that I get is to control a dog from barking. So a lot of people will think, oh my gosh, my dog is just barking in the yard. I need to put a muzzle on them because they see these muzzles that keep their dog's mouth shut and they're like, well, if their mouth is shut, then they can't bark, which, okay, the danger in that is that dogs need to be able to drink water pretty consistently. In addition, in heat, dogs cool themselves off by panting, right? So they don't sweat like we do. They don't cool themselves down that way. If they can't pant, they're going to overheat. And then this is the conversation I always have with my veterinary students, because they are working with six sick dogs and muzzles, or stressed out and sick dogs in muzzles, and a lot of them are more likely to use the the cloth muzzles that hold the dog's mouth shut is aspiration. So if the dog is sick and they're vomiting, if they vomit while wearing the muzzle, they can't expel the vomit and there's a high likelihood that it's going to then enter their lungs and they'll develop pneumonia or drown. So we talk about those dangers and why it's so important to have a muzzle that fits and allows the dog to open their mouth unrestricted. So barking is a big one that I don't use muzzles for changing that behavior. And in general, I don't use muzzles to change behavior overall. So like people who contact me and they're like, oh, I put I put a muzzle on my dog. And they stopped being aggressive. And I'm like, wow, that's interesting. They must be really uncomfortable in that muzzle because their behavior is now suppressed. Right? Their behavior hasn't actually changed. Right. Um, because when you take the muzzle off, the behavior returns. But if they're wearing it, that behavior is suppressed. So the feelings are still there. It's just not showing itself as the behaviors that you previously saw. Right. Yeah. No learning happened. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And so I try to help people realize that these muzzles aren't for behavior change. They are management tool so that you can relax a little bit more and create behavior change that is more longer lasting and and safer and more permanent. So I think those are the two big reasons I also wouldn't use a muzzle to put a dog in a situation they weren't comfortable in to begin with. So like, I wouldn't take a dog that's dog reactive, put a muzzle on them and then put them in doggy play playgroup, you know, like that's just asking for trouble. Um, and more emotional trauma, even though they're not able to create physical trauma to the other dogs, if they're overwhelmed, they're not learning. They're just panicked and potentially making the problem worse. Yeah. Also, if a dog is wearing a muzzle within a group of other dogs off leash, they can still instigate conflict and then they are without a kind of crucial ability to defend them, to defend themselves should something progress before it gets effectively interrupted. Yeah, and to be honest with you, that that's another reason people don't want to muzzle too, is that they're afraid that if the their dog is attacked, they won't be able to defend themselves, which I don't think is necessarily true, because if your dog is wearing a muzzle, they shouldn't be unsupervised, right? Anyway. Right. Um, and it's your responsibility to keep them safe. That said, you know, people are like, well, my dog is reactive and barking, lunging at people. What if somebody attacks me and my dog isn't able to defend me? And I'm like, well, the chances of that happening are pretty gosh darn low versus your dog attacking everybody. Yeah, you're right. And that's the perfect example of it being just a tool. It does not remove any of your responsibilities for managing the situation that you are in with your dog, which is regardless of the tools and play, is a responsibility that falls on the shoulders of the person. Exactly. And I think essentially. Muscles are pretty much like putting the safety on a gun, right? You're you're putting this cage around your dog's face. And if you need to remove the safety from the gun because you need to defend yourself, it's it's a quick clip away. But if your dog is that much of a unpredictable danger to others, then I think you need to have the safety on. Absolutely. So I am familiar to an extent with counter conditioning desensitization methods through positive reinforcement. I've I'm very attracted to it because it's very simple as a concept, but can you give just kind of a quick overview for our listeners of how you would recommend people start to get their dog comfortable with a muzzle even before it's on them? Perhaps. Yeah, absolutely. So there are a couple things that I do. One, I teach the dogs to put their face in things. So whether it be a yogurt container or a cup or the food bowl. You know, just having a dog that will put their face in things is great. Yogurt containers are pretty narrow, so they really have to stick their head in there and sniff snuffle around for that sort of thing. Ice cream cartons are good too, assuming there aren't allergies. But yeah, so teaching your dog to put their face in things is a phenomenal skill. Um, other skills that I find useful for muzzle training are nose targets or chin rests. Um, as well as holding those for duration with some physical touch distractions. One of the biggest barriers to muzzle training is actually clipping the muzzle on. And that comes when, like the owner, you know, reaches for the dog's collar and they're like, oh, what are you doing? And they, you know, start to back out of the muzzle. Um, so teaching them to hold still while you're touching their neck area is a phenomenal thing to do. It goes a long way in cooperative care as well. But so those are all like. Bonus added for desensitization and counter conditioning or just conditioning for muzzles. But the first thing that I do is I try to make muzzle training really, really easy for the owner because it is super boring and it's it may already be aversive to them, right? So I have them store their muzzle in their dog's food bin or wherever they keep their food, so that it becomes part of their daily routine to desensitize the dog to the muzzle. And they can do this by. I have a couple of videos on my website, but if you take a piece of cardboard and cut a hole in it so that your muzzle will stand up while all of that is propped over their food bowl, you can then prop their muzzle up in the food bowl and just feed them from the muzzle. Wow, that's so smart and it makes it super easy. Just part of their daily routine and maybe twice a day, right? But the muzzle in they dump the food in. Let the dog eat. You're done. Right. You've done your training and you do that for as long as you need to, or maybe for an extended period of time. But now the dog has this association of I stick my face in this thing and I get food. Mhm. Now the owner can pick the muzzle up, show it to their dog and they go where's the food. And they stick their nose right in. And now the owner can feed them treats through the muzzle. And they don't even have to oftentimes lure them into the muzzle because they've already conditioned themselves to stick their face in it. And then from there, I teach the dog to follow the muzzle. So once they're sticking their nose in for treats, fantastic. They stick their nose in and then I will actually pull the muzzle off their nose. And so they have to stick their nose back in. And so they learn to walk and move with the face in the muzzle without it being attached to their face. Yeah. Similar to a nose target like I've used. I've used that before to like teach auto how to do the legs thing in agility, where he comes in like sits between my legs. It's becomes a similar concept, right? But with that added bonus of them just getting used to the feel of their face being in it. Yeah, exactly. And moving because that's another big blockage where people will be like, I've conditioned the muzzle, they've got it in, I've clipped it on, but they won't move. And I'm like, oh, well, we need to teach them to move first. Mhm. Um, so we're doing all of that before it's even clipped on their head, and then we clip it on their head and then I just start feeding them treats in like an X formation. So top right top left bottom left bottom right. Yeah okay. That makes perfect sense. Yeah. And then we take the muzzle off and we repeat. And then maybe I'll hold the treat a little bit further. So they have to take a step to the left and a step to the right. Mhm. And they're already moving to get their cookie. The muscles just now attached to their head. And then we start asking for known behaviors such as nose targets, sits downs things that they know and love. My dog loves to do leg weaves. So we'll put the muzzle on and do some light waves, you know. So we're adding this movement and then all of a sudden they're like, okay, it's just like wearing a hat or my harness or a collar and it's just not a big deal. And then at that point, you can generally start putting it on before going for a walk. And now the dog starts to realize, oh, I get to wear my party hat and we get to go outside. And so now you can use less and less treats because it now means something else that's fun. And it's not necessarily just food like fantastic. And I think the food thing with the muzzle, like in the bowl standing up is just genius. But all of that stuff, I think a lot of people don't think about counter conditioning, other gear that is less stigmatized in the same way. Like my dog Otto. It took him forever to get comfortable wearing his harness. He did not like the feeling of having that on, but I wanted him to wear one rather than just a collar, because he's a small dog and he has a small neck and in at least makes me feel better if he's pulling. So we did a lot of counter conditioning with that, but not anything that was so thoughtful and varied in these types of steps to get him there. So anyone listening, if you're a nerd like I am, I think it's a really cool exercise to kind of break down. Okay, what are the little milestones that can lead me to my dog just being able to put on whatever gear this is and feel good about it. Call it a party hat or which I love and like. It's just a good exercise to think to yourself, okay, like, how do I break this down into super, super digestible little steps in progress? I think that's so cool. Yeah, and to be honest, this is all coming from personal experience. Like my older dog. Is seven and she hates putting clothes on. And so we've done a lot of work, um, specifically around agility equipment and like martingale collar that we put on and off so that she can run courses so that it's it's the last thing that happens in her course. She had better like putting her head into that collar at the end of the run. But you've met my younger dog pup, and getting him dressed is a nightmare. So I have a I have a fair amount of work to do with him to put his collar and harness and and it's not that he doesn't like the way that it feels. He just doesn't like it going over his head. Yes, that's a big thing. I feel like that's big for a lot of dogs. Mhm. Yeah it's huge. And yeah once I get it on he's stoked. He's like that means we're going. But the process of getting it on him is painful. Yeah. Why do you think that is. Why. Why is that such a like a sensitive thing for so many dogs? I have no idea. I have no idea. You know, I thought with my older dog that it was my fault. I introduced her and her litter mates to it at. Five weeks of age. I had access to her breeder and went and helped with some puppy culture stuff and she was like, hey, do you mind introducing them to collars today? And I did, and they happened to be in like a little bit of a fear period. And four out of the five of them had issues with collars and I was like, what the heck? Wow. But I didn't do that with her puppies, who I had, you know, since birth. And actually I should follow up with the third one. But puck is real bad and his sister is okay, but I don't know what it is. Maybe it's a breed thing and could be. I mean, Otto, even though he has a good association with his harness now, he definitely does not look like he'll he'll tolerate it. He. But if I bring the harness out, sometimes he'll, like, move away and be like, I just don't. And it's that process of just putting it over his head and onto him. It's that part where he's me. I don't like that part. And it's funny because the thing that I have done with Moya, my older dog is. I taught her to shove her head in it, so I taught her to dive through her martingale. And now she's super stoked about it, right? Uh, and her collar was a chin. Rest with distraction. Social rest with me holding the collar in her hand. And now I can loop it over her head. Um, yeah. But man, if you try to do it for them, I almost wonder how much of it is like that control consent thing, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's so much that we're still discovering about that in so many other things in terms of like our dog's feelings, just an opportunity for them to be like, this is not my idea. Because it's not my idea. I don't love it. Yeah. For anyone listening, Amy has some excellent videos and resources as well on her website and on her social channels about measuring your dog, getting them used to starting this process with them. Please, please go check it out. They're. They're awesome. So I want to talk a little bit about maintenance of this gear, because I feel like that's something that's really overlooked. And I know a lot of your muscles that you make are bio thin or vinyl like materials that because they're not cloth, they're a little bit easier to keep clean. Um, but what do you recommend for cleaning routines and making sure that through wear and tear, you're not setting yourself up for a situation where suddenly a strap breaks or something like that. Just keeping them clean, making sure that they're free of dirt and grime and dry when you're done using them so that they're not rusting. The vinyl muzzles tend to be really, really durable. Um, they will etch, you know, especially if your dog is, like, scraping it across the pavement. But it doesn't seem to be decreasing their ability to prevent injuries. The bio Thein muzzles are really, really flexible and bendy. So. If the dogs are playing with other dogs with them on their teeth, do tend to tear at the bio thing. Um, and there's a lot higher wear and tear on the bio thing than on the vinyl. But what I've also done with the bio thing is that I've started offering an add on option, where you can add in metal bars in the front, and those metal bars. One prevent the bio thing from folding into the dog's mouth so you're not getting as much scraping, but it's also holding the it's adding a lot more bite resistance to the front of those muscles. So they're not folding and, you know, becoming softer. Okay. Do you do like repairs on muzzles like a biathlon muzzle that has a tear? Or would you just recommend getting an entire new one? Yep. I do do repair so people can send their muzzles back in. Um, I've had a few of them come back where they're like, this is just it's all torn up. And I'm like, great, we've got this Muslim modification service where you can send it in, we'll fix it up and we'll send it back to you. You know, we just replace the the torn straps and send it back out. So yeah, I actually saw a video on your Instagram the other day about the fact that some muzzles are not 100% bite proof. So who do you find tends to prefer those more flexible options versus the more durable vinyl or or adding those metal bars in the front? Yeah. So the more flexible options are. There are a lot more colorful. Those tend to be the people whose jogs haven't broken skin, or those dogs that are nipping or smaller dogs. Um, the other subcategory there are the dogs that are totally fine in public or in their house, assuming nobody reaches for them. So the muzzle is a really nice visual cue to those around you to keep your hands to yourself, or at least ask first. It can also be a really cool conversation starter. You know when you're on the street and somebody sees you walking your dog. I have a client in Fort Collins who gets asked all the time, where did you get that muzzle? Yeah. And she's like handing out cards left and right. But she gets complimented on all the time because it's bright and it's pretty. And her dog is really well behaved at this point. Um, but she has it there as a just in case and also call your dog, you know, and it's just that signal that people can see, oh, I should I should get my stuff and maybe give them a little bit extra space. Um, so those dogs tend to go with like the softer muzzles because they really just need that visual cue to have people think twice about reaching for the dog first. Yeah. Which I mean is a skill that the general public, I think still has progress to make on any muzzle or no muzzle. It's very important to ask the person who is an expert on that dog what the dog would be comfortable with. And then also the added layer like this is something that I feel like isn't talked about sometimes, especially with children like you don't just ask their human, can I pet the dog? But. If the human says yes, you also need to observe the dog's response to you. And if they're giving like, uh, not right now vibes, it's it's just it's difficult but important to respect that for short. Totally. I it's something that I've taught my children what we don't we don't even ask to pet. I just have them like if they need to interact with a dog or whatnot. They tell people, I like your dog and they move on. Um, they don't even approach or anything like that, but if they do, or the owner offers to let them meet, I have them call the dog to them. So the dog is greeting them. They're not greeting the dog. Yes. And that way, if the dog is not feeling it and they don't come to them, then there's your very, very clear answer. Exactly. And they're not in their space. Yeah. So if something if the dog gets uncomfortable, they're not in danger already. Yes. That's awesome. So yeah, those flexible muzzles in many cases are more for people. It seems like as a cue and as destigmatize. That's awesome. And your muzzles are beautiful. I love all the beautiful colors. Um, and I think I saw a reel of yours where you had a bucket of all the, like, punch outs where the grommets go. And just confetti of bio ethane. I got to figure out what to do with it. It's coming in a minute. Yeah, you could probably make some. I make some jewelry out of that or something. What? Uh. Um, when my kid was in preschool, I was bringing in buckets of the punch outs to their preschool, and they were using it as, like, a sensory bin, so the kids could just stick their hands in it. And, like, I love that idea. That is fantastic. How cool. You're such a cool mom, I love it. Ask my kids in five years. I mean, yeah. Ask them today. I don't know that they'd agree, but story of my life as well. Okay, so we we touched on this just a little bit, but I want to make sure that it's clear for everybody listening that the muscles that you typically recommend that don't have that restriction on the dog's ability to open their mouth, they are able to effectively drink water out of those. And so that works for both basket and vinyl muzzles. Correct? Correct, correct. I actually consider vinyl muzzles fall into the basket category. They're just made out of a different material, and they're not like woven wire or woven bio thin or leather. Right. Yeah. And the dog just dips their head. I mean, it's just, you know, there are holes for the for them to breathe them too late. So those same holes can allow water to come in given the dish is big enough. Right. Exactly. So as long as the water source is big enough for the muzzle to fit in, the dog will be able to drink. Right, right. And then are there some muscles where they can't accept treat? In most muscles, the gaps are big enough for, you know, bite sized treats to fit through. There are some muscles, especially like the vinyl or plastic versions where there are just holes punched. At times they'll leave the treat hole off. So instead of having a larger treat hole in front of the dog's mouth, that's just a smaller hole. And so they're not as easy to be treated through that small hole. It's I mean, it's a fully functional like this is literally just a protective measure, not a restrictive one. Exactly, exactly. And actually one of the great, you know, desensitizing and counter conditioning exercises is using the muzzle as kind of an enrichment tool, right? We have all of these enrichment tools that hide kibbles or treats so that the dog has to find them. But if they have that tool on their face and you scatter, do a treat. Scatter on the ground. Now they've got an extra layer that they have to move around and get the treats through, and it becomes another enrichment game for them. I that perspective is fantastic because I, I mean, I love different opportunities for enrichment, just wherever you can find them. And there are usually opportunities that we as people don't even think about because enrichment is such a buzzword now and we didn't we think a lot about like mats and, you know, toys built specifically for it. But there are often really simple ways to provide your dog with a little bit of little dopamine hit that that can help them just regulate. And that's I have not thought of it that way, that you're essentially leveling up. Right. Like, yeah, if you're if you're used to rolling a towel up with treats in it, this is essentially like tying the knot in the towel. So no, they have to untie the knot before they can unroll the towel. Right. Um, yeah. It's just adding another layer in there. Yeah. Well, and in terms of the human perspective about that. You know, I feel like a lot of people have the tendency to look at a dog working to get treats with a muzzle on and say, oh no, like I made it hard for them, but take that away and go, oh good, I made it a challenge. That's good. Now they have something to focus on other than the stimuli that might be triggering for them nearby. Exactly. Or they have that challenge. And if your dog is particularly fond of challenges now, you're creating a positive association with the trigger of your trigger by. And now I've got this great challenge to work on. Yes. What's the biggest lesson that we can learn from? From giving our dogs these tools to expand their world further? Hmm. I think it's acceptance of acceptance of the journey, even if it doesn't look the way that you thought it would. Yeah. And then it might not be completely linear either. Right? Exactly. Like it's. You might have an idea of how this journey is going to look for you, and just being open to the possibility that it might look a little bit different and the end goal might change. Actually, it probably should change that. It's a relationship that we have with these creatures at the end of the day, which means that compromise is inevitable. Compromising our expectations is inevitable. And that's true of any relationship. Absolutely. All relationships, any relationship you have, there's compromise. If you liked this episode, don't forget to share it with a friend. And remember that the best way to motivate me to create more is to leave a five star review to make sure you don't miss the next one. Follow and subscribe to the subwoofer on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you're listening. If you have thoughts or questions about what we talked about in this episode, I would love to hear from you genuinely. Feel free to DM me on the social channels for this podcast, or send an email to the subwoofer podcast at gmail.com. We'll see you next time on the subwoofer.