Denise Fenzi: Genetics vs. Environment in Dog Behavior

Y'all aren't ready for this week's guest. It's the one and only Denise Fenzi!

There are so many topics that I want to pick Denise's brain about, it was hard to pick just one. I was inspired by a recent live video she did about genetics vs. environment and how each influences dog behavior, so we sat down to talk more about her perspective and experience on this subject. 

Listen and discover: 

• Why Denise puts her money on genetics over environment
• How a dog's genetic package influences their ability to cope with environmental challenges
• How to recognize and honor a dog's self
• Knowing the limits of changes that can be accomplished through training

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Transcript

So before I interviewed this week's guest, I was telling one of my trainer friends about who it was and the first words out of her mouth were Hannah. That is a score. And she's absolutely right. This week I'm talking to a big name in the world of dog training, Denise Finzi. I had the idea to reach out to Denise after I interviewed her mentee, sailor Jerry the Dog Trainer, a few weeks back. I had a very similar experience reaching out to both of them. I sent a DM on social media, didn't really expect a response, and then they both got back to me really quickly and made themselves readily available to sit down and talk. I just think that's an amazing sign that both of them are truly dedicated to their work and passionate about sharing their knowledge, and that just really makes me feel happy and optimistic about all the trainers out there, well known or not doing good things in the world. There are so many different topics that I would love to dive into with Denise, and to be honest, it was hard to pick just one. Denise is very active on social media, and I recently saw her do a live about genetics versus environment in terms of dog behavior. I've been digging deep into Kim Brophy book Meat Your Dog about how learning, environment, genetics and self all come together to influence how dogs experience and behave in the world. I was eager to hear more of Denise's perspective on this, especially given her wealth of experience in dog training and behavior, and we had a great conversation. I hope you enjoy. Today my guest is Denise Finzi. If you're in the dog world, I am sure that you know who she is and I'm thrilled that she's here. Denise has titled Dogs in Obedience, AKC and UK tracking AKC and should send. Am I saying that right? Should send. Yeah, it's not called IGP, but it's the same idea. Herding AKC, conformation AKC, and agility AKC. She has two AKC Obedience Champions. Perfect scores in both should send and endearing sport obedience and is well known for her flashy and precise obedience work. While a successful competitor, Denise's real passion lies in training dogs and solving the problems that her own dogs and her students dogs present. She's a recognized expert in developing drive, motivation and focus in competition dogs, and is known internationally as an engaging speaker and an expert in no force training for sport dogs. She's consistently demonstrated the ability to train and compete with dogs using motivational methods in sports where compulsion is the norm. I am so excited to have you here today. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right, so I know that obviously you have a wealth of experience in a number of areas when it comes to dogs and animal behavior in general. But what we're digging into a little bit more, at least to start off our conversation today, is the influence of genetics versus the influence of environment in dog behavior, which I find really, really fascinating. And if you can give me kind of a nutshell description of this, what I'm curious about off the bat is why do you put your money on genetics over environment when it comes to which has the greater influence? Oh, it's just I think so it's an awkward question which has the greater influence, I think, um, maybe a better way to phrase that is which do I care more about. Mhm. So I don't think that the best environmental choices in the world can. Make a dog work for a situation if a basic genetic package is not there. Uh, I think environment influences what the dog starts with. So you have the genetics. You aren't going to change it. You just can't. You can. I say move the dial. So if your dog is a fearful dog, a very fearful dog, you can make it less fearful with environmental choices. But here's the thing. If your dog is just not a fearful dog, it's actually quite hard to make it a fearful dog. You can do terrible things to the dog. And and I've seen this. I can't count how many times. And then the dog has moved to a new home, new environment, and that dog's genetic package comes back. So it's like, yeah, the dog had a miserable however many months. And in spite of that, I'm amazed at how resilient dogs are who come with that genetic resilience. Um, so that is why I get way more nervous if somebody shows me an eight week old puppy that's already showing. I'm going to call it problem behavior. What I mean by problem behavior is the dog is going to struggle to succeed in the environment that it's been placed in, because all behavior serves a purpose. All dogs come with temperament for a reason. There's there's all kinds of stuff that goes in that. And what I might want. A dog is different than someone else. But if I'm looking at an eight week old puppy that is showing behaviors that are going to make the world it lives in problematic, that road is going to be long. If you show me a dog that will I. I talked about this recently. That's I think 6 or 7 months old that probably didn't have one advantage in life. Got stuck in a backyard. Nothing weird happened to it. If you take it out of that environment. And it's amazing to me how quickly the dog can develop normal behavior because the genetic package was already normal. Um, so when we say, wait, I mean, obviously people who are abusing dogs are doing a lot of damage, but I'm talking about just average or just your average person getting your average dog treating it in an average way. I'm going to put my money on genetics in terms of a successful future for that team. Yeah, that makes absolute sense. And it also, I think it addresses something really important that a lot of people seem to misunderstand when they start to delve into the power of training, especially operant stuff. Um, and that misconception is, well, I can teach any dog to do anything. And if I get a puppy clean slate, blank slate, I can have I can mold this puppy into anything I want. But it's not that's not really the story, is it? Because the genetic package has significant influence over that dog's success in any given environment? Well, there is a reason why, if you look at agility, because you mentioned doing some agility, there is a reason why the most common, exceptionally successful breeds represent no more than 7 or 8 possibilities. So in depending on the height class, you're going to see, um, toy poodles, Papuans, shell TS, border collies, you know what I mean. There's there's a relatively small handful of breeds. And yet where are the whippets? So you're not going to tell me that a whip. It's not fast. You know, there are other breeds that are extremely fast and agile. The reason you're not seeing them in the same numbers as some of the other breeds. Comes down to the genetic package the border collie one really wants to do it, really wants to do it your way, and will often do it for extended periods of time. So if you're just looking at the build of the dog and the speed of the dog, if it were true that all dogs could do all things, then we wouldn't see this dominance of the breeds. Or you look at AKC obedience, you go look at the nationals every year and in the top 20, it is very likely that 15 of the 20 will be golden retrievers and Labradors just right off the bat. So does that mean that people only try to train golden retrievers and Labradors? Because if you look in the novice classes at obedience trials, it's not all golden retrievers and Labradors, but there's something that is qualitatively different about those dogs that allows them to work their way up through novice open utility championships and move on. Those qualities are largely innate, or we would see a different pattern. We would just see whatever is the typical representative of people in society. The dogs they choose would be roughly evenly proportioned in these events, and that's just not what you're going to see, right? There are some things that aren't taught, and those things are going to show up in how our dogs. Are are able to handle any given environment, whether they actually want to be there, whether they want to do what we're asking. Um, that that makes a lot of sense. I want to I want to talk about something you mentioned. So problem behaviors, which I appreciate that you explained. Um, just behaviors that may not serve a dog in the environment. It's going to, you know, end up being raised in or spending the majority of its time in. Are there certain behaviors that you feel it's more concerning to see in some breeds of dogs than in others? I remember you mentioned this in a live. You were talking about how in some breeds I don't know if it was bite inhibition. I think you were talking about your Belgians maybe, and how you're like, ah, yeah, I see this moodiness in them. If I were to see that same moodiness or that same tendency in a different breed than I might consider it to be concerning. Yeah. So if I see resource guarding in a Belgian sort of I, my tendency is to think it's not desirable, but it's also. You knew it when you got it right. Like you get a certain breed and you know that they tend towards certain behaviors, right? But then I see a golden retriever show up with resource guarding. The problem is, if you bought a golden retriever, you probably have a couple of kids. You're looking for something that you can, you know, take on what you're looking for, a different kind of dog. So when I start seeing that, that's very out of character for the breed, and I don't say to myself, this is just a dog being edgy as it grows, I find that most of my Belgian puppies are resource guarding, and many of them outgrow it. So there's just something about the way they, you know, might makes right in a litter of Belgian puppies. And if that means I'm going to bite you to get the thing you have, they tend to come out of the litter with pretty assertive, forward aggressive behavior. I'm talking about working line Belgians. Right. Um, and so as they realize they don't need to be that way, those behaviors often just kind of work themselves out. They don't end up being serious. I can think of so many young puppy Belgians that looked a little scary, you know, the the way they resource guard, the way they would react with redirection if you tried to take something from them. Um, but they work it out. It does not. It's not a part of who they are. It's a part of being young and impulsive. And then as they get a little older and less impulsive and they've seen more, they just stop. If I saw a golden retriever redirecting because somebody tried to take something out of its mouth, see, that's to me much more worrisome because where is that coming from? There's nothing in the genetics of a golden retriever that would make me say that's a normal outgrowth of a higher level of aggression than most breeds. I'm going to start thinking that's actually an outgrowth of a dog that lacks confidence. And, um, is willing to contest a person. And that combination is a little it's just worrisome. That's not why you bought a golden right. And that's actually a lot of it. Right? There is people try to get different dogs for different reasons. Uh, there's a lot of exceptions to that. A lot of people just buy something cute, which is unfortunate, but those who actually are going out of their way. It's worrisome when a dog shows traits that are so far out of what would be expected. The other thing that is always going to concern me, especially in a young puppy, is anything that is going to be detrimental to the dog in all circumstances. Uh, with the exception of a wild state. So, for example, for a dog that is fearful, fearful in the house, anxiety, sort of a generalized walks around the house being distressed, can't settle down. There's really no environment where that dog, the dog, will take itself with it no matter where it goes. Yeah. It's kind of a miserable thing to live with. You know? So I feel really bad when I see dogs that are very edgy, fearful, anxious because you can change their environment as many times as you want. In modern society, that is never going to serve that dog well and it's going to harm the dog. It's harmful to the dog. Whereas if you have a dog that's just exceptionally rambunctious, that's not harming the dog. It might be harming society if they're sort of plowing through people left and right, but it's still not harming the dog. If you get that dog in the right circumstance or with the right handling, the dog can actually live a pretty normal life. And so there are definitely qualities that the dog brings to the table, where I can look at it and say, this dog can be fine in the right circumstance. And then there are other dogs where I say, either this dog is going to be miserable because of the qualities it brings to the table, which I could not identify at eight weeks. But over time, you can start to see those things. Or the challenge of finding a home for a dog that has this pattern of behaviors is going to be really, really tough. Mhm. Yeah. It's so it's interesting that you mentioned that I'm starting to dive into this a little bit. Well not just dive into it, I'm starting to have my eyes opened I should say about exactly what you're describing. Um, in evaluating the general temperament and emotional state of a dog in a certain environment and Making it an assumption about how easy it might be for them to be adopted. Say, as a shelter dog. So right now, I think I mentioned this to you, but I'm taking a prep course for CBT. And as part of that course, every other week, I go to a local shelter with my instructor and my classmates, and she has an arrangement with them where we meet dogs. For the first hour, we meet a few dogs just one at a time and just observe their behavior and the environment we're in. And then for the second half of the class, we witness their play hour, which is scheduled weekly at the shelter, and we get to see these dogs behaving individually and behaving in a group of other dogs. And it's been really eye opening in terms of behavior and the entire time my instructor. Will narrate for us in the playgroup and say, okay, you know, watch this over here, hip check over there. Um, a couple verticals happened over here. And it's just it's really interesting and also just complex to to have my eyes opened to these behaviors that display maybe some genetic predispositions that would make it hard for some of these dogs to be adopted and, and live successfully in a new home. Yeah. Actually, uh, dog to dog interaction is such a great example because, um, traditionally Belgians are not dog social. They're not dog reactive or aggressive. They're simply not interested. Right. And that's just neither here nor there to me. But for somebody who really, really wanted to go to the dog park with their dog, that starts to be a big thing for them. The good news is that particular quality is not a problem. The problem is when the dog is reactive or aggressive. Now you now you start having that narrowing effect. So in one case it's not going to impact the dog at all. But it might impact the owner if the owner had something else in their head in terms of like what, uh, what is the behavior they were looking for? Like, I'll have people say to me, you know, I'm frustrated because my dog has, you know, dog issues and I'm listening and we're chatting. And then at some point it comes up that they're talking about circumstances when they go nose to nose with another dog. Yeah. And it actually takes me a moment to sort of. Like, recalibrate the entire conversation because I'm like, well, then don't have your dog go nose to nose like there's. Yeah, I mean, that's just such a nod. That's like, oh, wait a second. Like, none of my dogs would do well with that consistently. And it just doesn't occur to me that that would be a problem for some people or even an expectation. Well, why then don't do that. Like it's just so simple. That is not a problem in society. The problem is people's expectations of dog sociability. Or some dogs just play really rough. And then people to, you know, that's so aggressive and and I'm looking at it and both dogs are opting in. So it's it's actually not a problem. It's a human problem because they got it in their head about what it should look like or even resource guarding. People say, well, he if one of my other dog tries to take something from him, he gets mad. And I just literally find myself blinking like, just stop it. Because, well, if you take things from me, I get mad too. Like, dogs should not do that to other dogs. And if you watch normal dog behavior, my £70 dog would not take something from my £10 dog that he has. My £10 dog would not take something from my £70 dog because that's rude. That's not typical dog behavior. The one with the problem in that circumstance is not the one guarding its object. The problem is the other dog who lacks social skills and thinks they have the right. That's way outside the norm of dog behavior. Now the rules change quickly if the one dog walks away. So if the £70 dog leaves an object behind, walks five feet away, the small dog is welcome to it and vice versa. Now, that doesn't mean the one who walked away might not change their mind, but as soon as they turn and see what's happened, they recognize they no longer have possession. And that's it. It's over. Right. Um, so would I call that resource guarded? Well, no, I don't call that resource guarding. I consider that, like, normal. Um, so even then, maybe that's almost a more a matter of society not really understanding what's realistic, um, in terms of how dogs should engage. Yeah. There are so many misunderstandings and so often, you know, please tell me if this this lines up with what you've seen so often. Dogs that are giving appropriate warnings or appropriate communication to other dogs end up getting reprimanded for doing so. Like there might be a completely appropriate growl or a pucker like, hey, please get out of my face. And then those dogs end up getting corrected because they made a noise at the other dog who might be being really inappropriate or who might not have social etiquette. It happens all the time. I feel like it does. It happens all the time. You see it a lot in public, too, that the over-the-top, rude, aggressive dog comes in on the space of the first one. The first one snaps because they're like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, and then that's the one that gets in trouble. And all it does is reinforces bullying behavior from the over the top dog and reinforces fearful behavior in the one who's not protected. Yeah, exactly. So in terms of social etiquette and genetics, how how so obviously it's important, you know, for puppies to be socialized well, not over socialized, but appropriately socialized. Are there some dogs that you feel like just get it in terms of social etiquette and let's just say social etiquette between dogs and need less guidance from other, more mature dogs or from people who know how to guide that. Or is it a largely environmental quality? I think it's pretty heavily genetically influenced because I'm thinking about the dogs I have my last several. None of them. I've never taken a dog to a puppy class, so I've never done that kind of a thing with any of my dogs. So most of my dogs socialization with other dogs is extremely limited, and it would be like if somebody had a puppy of the same age, they might bring it over and we let them run around the backyard. More likely, um, I would be walking my dog in a place where you walk. Not Stan, not a dog park, a walking place where there's people with dogs, and my dog is walking and their dog is walking. And so we're walking. We're just. But, um, I have extremely few, um, social playdates of that type outside of the dogs in my own home. Now, if I only had one dog, I would rethink this if I had, like one new puppy coming in and no dogs in the home. But I always have a dog here, or two dogs here, and the puppy comes in. And the adult dogs. I don't interfere that much. I, I don't allow the puppy to mess with the adults, but I do allow the adults to mess with the puppy because I just have never had a dog who didn't make good decisions about raising a puppy. My dogs just do a really good job of, um, telling the puppy kind of what the rules are, what you can do, what you can't do, and sort of straightening things out. And I had have never had a situation where an adult dog put a mark on a puppy. I have had adult dogs pinned puppies who were screaming their heads off, but never a mark. So I'm going to assume that dogs know more than I do about what's going on. Like, sometimes I can't even tell what it was that sparked it, but what I do know is that my puppies are never afraid of my adult dogs, so whatever's going on must be clear enough to them, even if it's not to me. And I do, because I have a small dog. Um, it's important to me that the other dogs respect him. And so if he is going to grab hold of my, you know what? Four month old £30 Belgian and scream at him to the point where my Belgian's on his back with a £10 dog pressing the crap out of them. I know from experience that that Belgian is going to grow up respectful of my small dog, and they're going to end up being best friends. And they are. Now, admittedly, the Belgian loves the terrier more than the terrier loves the Belgian. That's okay. He's not going to hurt him. What matters is that my small dogs are safe. They're loose together. Um, I think the combination of having allowing my dogs to show normal behaviors to each other, uh, helps a ton. I think people overemphasize the extent to which it needs to be random, strange dogs, because that's just not. It's not a very typical life situation where random strange dogs are interacting. It just doesn't have to happen. And it's I don't know, it's not something that needs to be a part of my dog's life. Maybe other people are different. Maybe if you go to the dog park. But even when I take a walk with my dogs and other people are taking a walk, my dogs don't need to interact and they don't even really want to. They're just not that kind of dog. Yeah, uh, they have adequate social skills that if another off leash but friendly dog comes bounding over, they'll handle themselves. Fine. It won't be a big deal. I'll wait till the person collects their dog. Um, I think there's a heavy genetic basis there. I did have one dog who is really quite, um, reactive, predatory, aggressive, uh, require an incredible amount of management. From day one, from eight weeks of age, it was obvious that things were pretty intense. Okay. Um, and he never. I mean, he was I was saying to somebody today, if I'm there telling him what to do, controlling him, we could be fine. But, my God, if he ever got out my door and got to the street, that would have been incredibly frightening, because now it's not about training and control. Now it's about who he is inside. And I know that who he is inside did not change because I was able to control him under a wide variety of circumstances. So, for example, with me, I could train him around cars. That's not going to be a problem. There could be dogs in the dog park. I could be training him. But if he ever, ever got out my door and got to my road, I know that car chasing would have been back within two minutes. And I know if he saw a bicycle go by or another person walking a dog, that that would have been bad. Bad news. Um, and that's just kind of an unfortunate reality. Um, training can do it. Training can do. But that genetics is still there. Yeah. What what signs did you see from him as a young puppy that that made it obvious who he was. When I picked him up from the airport and took him outside, he started to scream like I couldn't believe and I didn't know what his problem was. He was screaming and flipping on the leash and I'm like, Holy crap. And so I scoop him up. I pick him up because he's so hysterical and I put him down and we're fine. We're walking to the car for a minute, and then he starts us up again, and I realized a truck had gone by and he was trying to get to the truck. So that was after having him for ten minutes. I saw that this was a type of predatory car chasing behavior way beyond anything I had, uh, seen or experienced. I was like, okay, that's pretty intense. And then the next day, I took him for a walk. I took him to a quiet I had at the time, I had access to 400 acres, um, of a of a private horse park. So there would be other people there. But we're talking 400 acres and ten people, like, throughout the whole thing, so it's not. And, um, right off the bat, he saw another dog at, I don't know, 50, 100 yards and was just beside himself. He was screaming, trying to get to it, barking. I mean, just really, really having a bad time. Um, and that was again, it was immediate. So, you know, I knew I had a problem with predatory behavior, um, all of that in an eight week old puppy. Wow, that that's what I mean by genetics. He was born that way. Yeah, it was wired in. And interestingly enough, he had siblings that were the same. So, uh, I think there were 5 or 6 in his litter. Um, one other male was almost identical to my dog started from the beginning. And, um, that same kind of extreme intensity. What's interesting is I am, um, a fairly force free trainer. Um, the other puppy was raised much more traditionally, and we both had the same problem. So it wasn't you couldn't beat it out of him and you couldn't cookie it out of him. And even though I think we were both trying to do what we knew was best for the techniques we had, the fact is we both started pretty far behind the eight ball. When you see dogs at eight weeks of age who are showing. Um, almost identical behaviors. And then I'm pretty sure there was a third female who was unable to do search and rescue because of targeting cars hundreds of yards away out in the woods. So that's genetics, you know, that's that's what you get with the genetic package. That's what we mean. And then as far as I know, there were two perfectly normal dogs in the litter. Lovely, lovely normal dogs. And interesting thing neither parent had car chasing issues. Neither parent had genetic aggression towards dogs or people. Wow. Yeah, genetics isn't necessarily well, the parents had it. So the offspring genetics also be it's in the genetic code somewhere. And for whatever reason, in this case, the mother, uh, consistently put problems on her puppies from a number of different litters bred to different males. But she did not show these issues. She carried them. And so, I mean, we know about this in people for sure, right? That things can generation. Right. And everybody's like, oh my God. He's just like his grandfather. Oh he's you know, just like um, and so that further complicates the matter of genetics. But in this particular case, one could see it pretty obviously at eight weeks if just put into certain circumstances. Wow how interesting. And it also very cool that you are able to look at the outcomes from your method, your approach with your dog and someone else's more traditional method, and and see the power of that genetic package regardless of how these dogs were approached. That's incredible. Yeah. You don't normally get that opportunity. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, and that's one of the reasons, I think, that perhaps there's so many different perspectives on this, or maybe a better way to say it is, you know, the misunderstanding of what you can control within a dog just with training and thinking that you can have more of an influence over their sense of self than than you actually can. That's really interesting. I often give is imagine you met an introvert and you decided you wanted to make them into an extrovert. Like, do you know what that would take? It's most of us know better than to think we can fundamentally change another person tech people who want to change themselves. Even when the introvert wants to be an extrovert, it's really, really hard to change the basics of who you are. Um, so now you're talking about a dog who never even said they wanted to change, so you know, you're trying to get buy in. And, um, I think we severely overstate what we can do in the world of behavior modification. Uh, which doesn't mean there's not a lot of good things you can do, especially about setting up a really, really good management plan and circumstances that allow the dog to thrive. Because sometimes that is the ticket. It's just all right. Your dog screams hysterically every time somebody goes by the window. Cover the window. Boom. Problem solved. It's like, and now you have a domino effect because the dog's not screaming at the window. He's relaxing, he's relaxing. He's sleeping more, he's sleeping more. He's making better decisions. Right. So I think management is an enormous piece of the training puzzle. And from there. The training that might still be valuable has a better chance of taking hold, and sometimes the management itself is the solution. It just doesn't need to go further because management can train your dog. So when people come in your house, you always crate your dog because he behaves badly at the front door. A year later, you realize your dog outgrew it. They no longer behave badly at the front door because they develop maturity. They did. They got out of the habit. You know, all of these things can be training, but maybe not in the traditional sense, and for sure not in the obedience sense. Because for the life of me, I can't see what? Sit down. Stay, heel come has to do with the dog throwing themselves out the window. Um, so, you know, maybe you can tell the dog to sit stay when they want to do it, and that's fine. But that only works when you're standing there. And while not, it's still something. I mean, I still benefit hugely by having a lot of training on my dogs because I can use control. But at the end of the day, if I have to do that, I could probably have just created them and saved both of us a fair amount of time and grief. What I really want to change is how the dog feels about the thing that's causing them to flip like a fish when the gardener comes, or whatever thing is out there. And it's something I think a lot about, where do I want to put my time and energy. So I did put a lot of energy into my young current. Well, young. He's three. But anyway, when the gardener came every week because it was predictable and I don't want my dog to go through a window. Uh, and so I put a lot of training into that training, not management. I actively worked it and I would say, now I have a civilized dog. He still stands up on the chair, growling with his hackles up, looking out the window. But he's not trying to go through the window. Uh, and if I'm not home, I put him in a crate. Um, so I'm glad I put in the time, because that paid dividends, but it didn't make him a ho hum. I think I'll sleep through the gardener. He's not the kind of breed that's inclined to sleep through the gardener. Um, so I'm glad I put in that time. I do think kind of picking and choosing. But if someone else said, I'm just going to create my dog when the gardener comes, I would say, oh, more power to you. I mean, I have no opinion. There's no right. There's just what's working for you and your circumstances based on who your dog is. Now, what I'm not going to do is put my dog on a down stay for an hour every week when the gardener is here. I mean that that doesn't make any sense. That doesn't benefit the dog. And I still have to supervise. So off to the crate for you. Yeah, I like that. You're talking about where do I want to put my time and energy? Because that that exact approach, the whole my dog can hold a down stay for however long. So I'm just going to do this. Still requires energy from you, monitoring from you. It's not benefiting the dog. I think it's really easy for like the average dog parent to look at a skill like that extended down, stay and think, oh my God, amazing. I want my dog to do that. That would fix 1,000,001 problems I have with them. But there's more to it than that, right? There's how can we best benefit the dog and the person or any people involved in this situation? Yeah. I think recognizing your circumstance, I can't tell you the number of times people have told me what dogs should do. Just think. Tell me one more time why my dog should do what? Your dog. I don't I don't live in the middle of the city. Right. So I don't need to worry about. Like somebody said, your dog should be able to walk at your side through a crowded space. No. Why is that? You know, it's it's not a part of my dog's life. He does have loose leash walking, but he walks in front of me. If somebody passes and they might be uncomfortable, I'm more than happy to call him back to my side. I try to be very polite in society, but no, he does not. I don't have a need for walking at my side, so I'm not going to put my time there, and I'm not going to tell someone else how they should put their time. I don't know how you should put your time. I don't know how you live. If you want my help, then those are the conversations we need to have. How do you want to put your training time? What do you enjoy? Another one I just saw this morning was the walks should be for the dog. And then the person explained how that should look. And I'm just, you know, if a person says I have 45 minutes a day and I get no exercise, I need to go for a walk, I need the human being, I need that, and I want to bring my dog along, but I need to move. I'm going to say, all right, this is an example of is the dog better off being left at home so you can have your power walk? Or is the dog better off coming along but not getting a sniff walk? Well, it would depend on the dog, but I would think most dogs would still rather go, even if it's a bit of a power walk and not necessarily a sniffing walk, then stay home. But I could be wrong. So ask the dog. You know, if you take the dog and you take a ten foot leash and you just keep moving, the dog will figure out what the parameters are. And I think most dogs would prefer that. So the whole should thing is just odd to me. And I don't know. We all live our lives differently. And you know, to me it's just what's the closest you can make it so that the person's happy and the dog is happy and society is happy. And that can't look the same for two people, because we're not living in the same families, with the same people, with the same dogs, with the same society. Make it work to the best of your ability. And just just be kind to all the players, to the best of your ability. And if you do that, you should get to your best possible place for you. Yeah. Where do you think all of those shoulds come from? Well, the internet isn't doing us any favors. Um, the internet's filled with five things all dogs must know. And some of them. It's not that they're bad ideas. Okay. Here's one. All dogs should be crate trained because you never know when you're going to be in the middle of a tornado. This is absolutely true. Now, having said that, I have never in my entire life been evacuated. No, that's not true. I actually was once, but I got to come home after about four hours. But I didn't use crates in that circumstance because I had, oh my God, I had a hamster. I had a cat. I had thought it was like, oh my God, I got bigger fish to fry. So it was more a matter of trying to figure out where to stick everybody. Right. It is true that all dogs should be crate trained because it might be useful, but it takes time to create train and it takes time to maintain it. So to do that, because one day you might be evacuated. I mean, then you have to ask yourself, well, what are the odds that I'm going to be evacuated? Is this is this a high enough risk that I should prioritize that training time over something like my dog not jumping on guests at the front door? When you live in a happy social household. Yeah. Or your dog should be able to do loose leash walking. Frankly, I know a lot of people who don't walk their dogs now that that's just not how they live their life. I've had many dogs that either I take them to open space and they would run. Or I have 100 acres. Now I own a ranch, so if my dogs want to run, they run. I've got 100 acres. They the amount of time my dog spent on leash walks is exceptionally small and is usually not about my dogs, it's about society. So if I go certain places they need to be leashed. But because of that, it means that I really have not put in the effort I wish I had for loose leash walking, because the time it would take is so much greater than the amount of time I'm actually out. I'm playing with it now with my big dog because I need to, for training purposes, take him to more places for my dog sports goals. But if it wasn't for that, I just wouldn't do it because it's not important now a down stay out of sight. That is a really useful skill to me. So when I go to the ranch, I've got a porta potty and I got to use the bathroom and I got the dog with me, I can put him on a downstair, I can go in the porta potty, and I know he's going to be there when I get back out. So that to me is a super practical skill. But how many people actually need and out of sight? Downstair if you just kind of think about people's average life circumstances and you ask them what circumstances that you can tell me about would require an out of sight down stay that makes sense in a place you would actually do it. Like I would never do that in a suburban area that's not safe. My dog gets up and leash on the porta potty. It's not a big deal. And they're going to be, you know, somewhere within 20 or 30 yards. But that's a useful skill for me. So for me, figuring out, um, I don't need formal healing even though I have it, but I do need a dog who will come back to my site so somebody else wants to pass. They're clearly nervous about dogs. I will call my dog back. Whether the only shirt off leash put them at my side. It's just a it's a politeness. But a lot of people don't. They don't have a £70 dog with a black face who stares right. It's a looking at the dog like my terrier. Who cares? He's £10. Nobody cares. They all just think he's cute. So he has a completely different type of training and different purpose. Because it doesn't matter when your £10 dog pulls on a leash, no one cares. Including me. It just doesn't matter. Yeah, um, his only. The only thing I really work on with my small dog is Rico. So the only thing that matters, the rest of it is just to entertain him and to entertain me. But I would never put him on a down stay outside a porta potty because I simply don't trust him to stay. Mhm. Now he has many interests. I'm only one of them, my Belgian. I am 90% of his interests and 10% the environment. The, the carrier, it's reversed. So what do I need? Uh, and then that's that's where I train. And I think people would be wise to worry less about the list and more about how they're actually living with their dogs. I often say there is no great book of rules, but if you went on social media, you might actually think there was a great book of dog training rules. And there is not one. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, that sounds like a terrier that you're describing. I, my dog Otto. He's not. He's a mixed breed, but most of what's in there is terrier of some kind. And, yeah, most of the time, I mean, he likes me, but he's much more interested in the environment. And of course, somewhere interesting for sure. Come along. It's fun. It's like, I'll show you where we're going, but you're welcome to come along. But yeah, he's like, I'll be leading, I'll be leading, and you're going to be here. That's not going to look back. I'm going to have to go find him. Yes. Yeah. And with him. So he's my first small dog. And what you're saying about training, what needs to work for you in your lifestyle and your dog and their needs makes a lot of sense because. I've had big dogs before where I'm having a good stay. For example, as I'm leaving them up before we get out of the car, that was much more important for a big dog than it is for my little dog now. So that's not something that I started teaching him until recently when we started working in agility, where it did become important for him to have a solid stay at a storyline. But yeah, that's something that I'm sure a number of people would be surprised that I've been I've really been from the jump, just immersing myself in all things dogs since I adopted him. And I think a lot of people would be surprised that I didn't. I didn't prioritize a stay with him right at the beginning, but I can pick him up and I'm like a big dog. So getting out of the car, I can literally get out with him in in my arms or in one of my arms. Um, so it wasn't at the beginning a priority yet? Yeah, I think people misunderstand. You know, I, I see a lot of stuff online. Small dogs must be trained to. Well, yes or no? Um, yeah. It's nice, but if you're a person who really, really doesn't want to put in the time, uh, my small dog was reactive when I got him. Um, not a big deal. He worked through it pretty fast, but the fact is, he was £4, so I would just pick him up and put him under my jacket. Yeah. And that sort of solved that reactivity problem. It was the easiest management thing in the world. So I think the truth is the size of the dog is going to influence how much you're probably going to want to do. Because if my little dog jumps on someone coming in the house, he's not going to knock anyone over. Um, and so you really do kind of have to look at the cost benefit analysis. And he's actually the cutest, ugliest boy. He's very, very snuggly. He loves to sit on my lap. He loves to be with me. And for a lot of people, that's really what you want. So for example, he is allowed on my bed and my big dog is not because then there's no room for me. So the dog he can, he has way more freedom in that sense. But it doesn't matter. It's again, it's what? What do I need from this dog? The only thing I think. People would really, really benefit from is a recall. Like every dog, if it gets out that front door, you want to be able to get it back. Um, also, I'm going to say it's pretty optional and kind of depends on your, your life circumstances. There's things that'll make your life more convenient, but at the end of the day, the size of the dog does matter and the temperament of the dog, because even if he was a flipping fool when he saw their dogs, nobody cares when it's a £10 dog. I mean, I, I walk my dog. I see this all the time where little dogs are just losing it on my dog and nobody cares it. Even my dog doesn't care. It just looks over at it and he's like, okay buddy, it's okay little buddy. I'm going to go over here and give you a little more space and help you feel better. I mean, whereas if a big dog was doing that, he would. He's got good social skills so he wouldn't antagonize. But you can see that it creates more, uh, stress in him when a small dog does it. I think he's more confused. Um, but he's like, no worries, little guy. I'm going to go over here. Uh, you know, I need to hear that about people not caring as much about small dogs and reactivity because my he does have some reactivity. We've worked through a lot of it. But there is under certain circumstances, it can certainly still show up. And, um, in my head I'm like, oh my God, people think I have a vicious goblin and they're just judging me. And so it's good to hear that most people in and I, after the fact, have realized this. Most people will just walk by and not think twice about it. And that's the piece on my side that emotionally I need to just compartmentalize so that I can, you know, bring my best leadership to my dog when he needs me and not worry about perception. Yeah, the problem is you're in the dog world. So your view of things is obviously impacted by the people you hang out with and what we think is important and valued and all that. But the vast majority of people, even if they love dogs, aren't dog people. Um, and so they just see dogs as dogs. They actually, your average pet person is probably much more aware that dogs or dogs, dogs bark and do things and it's annoying. And then you hear kind of these pat phrases like, well, why don't you train your dog not to bark as if it's so simple? Um, but they absolutely do watch people's fear responses, the way they respond to a big dog who looks out of control. And a little dog is pretty different. Absolutely. Um, which doesn't mean they're not judging. Some people just honestly have nothing better to do than judge. And but that's not about dogs. It's about everything. Like there's almost a personality type that just goes through life. Finding reasons to be angry. But. But they would find that even if your dog was angelic. So don't worry about that, right? Yes. Yes. Definitely. Definitely. So I had a question actually about, um, the Belgian puppy you were describing with the car chasing behavior. Did you end up giving him any type of substitution exercises for that? Uh, you mean like, prediction substitute, that kind of thing? Yeah, yeah, not by that name, because it's. That wouldn't have worked for him. Um, but I gave him obedience so he could work around things like that. Because I use toys in my training, just naturally. So I'm always. But it's kind of important to understand. So there's redirection, but that's not removing the interest. So that's a trained thing. If you see that thing and I do that my normal training path. So for example the dog I have now if he sees livestock, if he was free he would chase and kill for sure. Um, so what I do when he sees it as I cue him to get some a toy from me. So that would be a form of substitution, right? But I think it's really important to understand that that's not removing the dog's interest in the other thing. It's simply giving the dog an alternative under specific environmental cues. What environmental cue. My presence with a toy if that environmental cues changes. So I'm not there with the toy or I'm well, if I'm there, that would be enough. But if I'm not there and there's nothing for the dog to queue to come back to. Then that behavior would come right back. So it's kind of there's it's it's a management thing and it's enough for most people and most circumstances. The dog sees a thing, the dog comes back. You play with the dog. Life is good. But it's really important for people to understand that you didn't take the interest out. You didn't remove it. It is still there. It is always there. If the context changes, the problem comes back. So where things like that are very handy. When I walk my dog, I took it one step further. He's actually trained. If he sees something that I call it doesn't belong. He's supposed to come back to me. And I know when it happens because he comes back fast. So even if he saw it and I haven't seen it yet, I know from his behavior because he's coming back like a rocket. The only reason he does that is because he knows he's going to get a toy because he saw a thing. So I just show up with the toy and give him the toy. And then I look around to figure out what caused that behavior. And that is a super, super useful skill. If he came back and there was nothing there, no me, he would have been like, well, I guess I'll just go chase the thing. So it's still useful to me. It's still a very, very useful skill and it holds up off leash. It holds up on leash, it holds up. If he sees it and I don't see it. I put a lot of time into that behavior because it was it's for my circumstances, quite valuable because I'm on a ranch a lot and there are guinea fowl, chickens, sheep, cows. If it exists, I probably have it. Llama I can't have that. But it is a substitute. And if it's gone, the original behavior is still there. Right. Right. So you didn't change his feelings about the original thing, but what you did is you made it worth his while to come back to you first before deciding to impulsively go, yes, chase car or kill livestock and then I can make a decision. Do I need to leash him? Can I just ask him to stay with me? I have choices at that point. Mhm. But if it buys me time, which is enormously valuable in a circumstance like that. So yeah. Yeah I think I saw it might have been Michael Chicago that posted this yesterday, but it was a Simone Mueller quote about the difficulty of recall around distraction. And it was something to the effect of I'm always going to pay a high for that. I'm not going to stop rewarding my dogs highly for that because it's so incredibly hard to do, especially with dogs that present high drive. What's your take on that? I think she's right. And it is one of the things we don't talk about enough, um, in training. So keep in mind that if I reward my dog with something which is the equivalent of prey, which in my dog's case would be a toy. What I'm doing is maintaining high arousal and channeling it from one high arousal generation, the sheep or the livestock, to a second high or high arousal generation at twice. The reason this matters is if you actually wanted to, like, calm the dog around livestock, you can't use a substitute. You actually have to use food in a calm manner. So then the question is, does your dog care enough about food in a calm manner? And that's going to come down to the temperament of the dog. For my dog, the answer is no. He doesn't care enough about food in the presence of prey because his arousal is too high around prey. So I don't even have the option with the terrier. I would have the option around prey. I could absolutely have them come back, feed him cookies, and over time lower his arousal around prey and actually just make him a safer dog. I don't because I live differently with that dog. Um, but these are just things that people need to know. Like, are you trying to redirect the dog or are you trying to change the dog's feelings? And if you're trying to change the dog's feelings, is that truly realistic? And if it is truly realistic, what kind of a plan are we talking? So what I would do with my own dog, I would start with what I do now, which is see the thing, come back like a rocket, get your toy. And from there it would be. Come back like a rocket, get your toy. And now food, food, food food, food. Can I calm you down so that we can walk by it? I would slowly back out of the high arousal. So when you come back like a rocket, how about I just hand you the toy rather than having you chase me all these things? But the risk is that at some point the dog decides. I think I'm just going to go after the thing because I'm still having a lot of feelings about it. And that's, you know, you make these choices. The one thing I will say, it is not relaxing for me to go for a walk in an area where there are a lot of. Important triggers. Important means things. I really don't want you to chase. Deer. Uh, rabbits. Sheep. Um, it's not relaxing. Because if they show up throughout the entire walk, there's no strolling. Picking flowers. It's it's sort of an intense event. And that's, um, makes me a little sad because he loves to just run, and I love to watch him just running. Yeah, but it's it's. I could train till the cows come home. I really don't think that's going to change. Except when he gets old and doddering. Um, that's always a risk. And it it's for a lot of people. It's not practical. A lot of pet people don't want to spend their entire walk the way I spend mine. So then the obvious solution would be a leash to me. If I cannot or will not spend that time, and then that that brings other costs because a lot of dogs really do benefit from running. So you have, you know, there's choices you can make. Um, but it's not so simple as we'll train the dog and then you'll all live happily ever after with the terrier when he goes for a merry chase after a rabbit, I just let him go. You can't go very far, so it doesn't matter. The rabbits can run him every single time. So it's, you know, he can just run and he'll come back tired, and then that's. That's it. I do the same with auto. In our yard, we just have neighborhood rabbits and we have a decent sized backyard. But if he sees one and it's not like super close, I just let him, like, I'll give him a cue. I'll be like, go get it, and I'll let him chase it because I know he's not going to catch it and he's going to get a little thrill. And why not give him that? That was smart to add a Q because you're now on his team and so it makes you the good guy. Well thank you, I appreciate that. I got the idea from, uh, my current mentor who does something similar with her horses. Um, and she had figured out that for her dogs, the most exciting, most fulfilling aspect of going after a rabbit was just running and chasing it and seeing it run. And then they would disengage once the rabbit disappeared. Um, I'm sure she probably did some work work on that with them too, but that's pretty good. That's another. It's just another one of those shoulds, right? Like, oh well, you shouldn't let your dog like don't let your dog chase. Don't let your dog do this. They shouldn't do that. But I'm like, well, if it's if it's something that I see that they would enjoy. And I know that the welfare of the chase animal is not in question. Why not? Why not set up a circumstance where everybody can win? Absolutely. If it's not a problem, it's not a problem. Don't make it one. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I'm curious about this just because we've talked a lot about genetics and we've talked a little bit about breeding and how the parents of a puppy or a litter of puppies may not be exhibiting problematic behaviors that they're passing on. And I know that you have working dogs. Do you think that shelter dogs, mixed breed dogs, can make excellent working dogs as well? Or do you feel like they could often make excellent working dogs? Or based on. Would you be more inclined to select a working dog from a breeder specifically? It depends what you mean by work. If you mean performance like agility, obedience, rally, it doesn't matter at all. Okay, actually, it's. I would almost argue you're better off getting a shelter dog. And the reason is you're probably looking at an adult. So my thinking is, if I take some dog that's been living in a box for a few weeks, and I take it out into the training yard and there's other dogs around, there's people around, and I take out a ball and that dog plays ball, or that dog plays tug, or that dog eats and engages with me. That's like incredible, right? Like you're not going to find very many dogs that do that. But if you're looking for one and you find a dog that shows that in that terrible environment, that tells you so much about who that dog is. So I would put my money on that dog. Um, if you're talking about work, as in a police dog, a herding dog, those things I would always go for a dog that's genetically bred for it because those events one, they require a lot of genetic, um, like a herding dog. A good border collie. You see sheep, you point to him and the dog goes. You want me to put those in the barn, don't you? Like there's such a genetic wiring in those dogs that for work that's heavily, heavily influenced by the dog, just understands in its DNA what to do. I would want a dog bred for the work if I really needed a dog to do the work. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're not going to occasionally find a random dog, but I would not put my money on that coming true if it mattered. But performance is different, so performance is any breed can do it. Any type of dog working. When I see working, I'm talking about specific breeds only doing specific types of work. So could my Belgian Shepherd go out and do a retriever trial, you know? Yeah, he probably could first level. He probably could. It would take an incredible amount of work. Um, but he could actually learn to mark a line, run out straight, grab a bird, fetch it back to me. He could totally learn those things. It would just take me ten times longer than a person who had a working line Labrador. And when it came to the second level or the third level, now you're talking 400 yard out runs, right? That. Could he do that? Oh my God, it would be a miserably difficult process, whereas a dog that's genetically bright for it, they just go, I bet you want me to run for a really long time. They just. I'm simplifying. It's not really like that. But having a title dogs in working events that were not bred for it and having titled dogs that were. It's just such a night and day difference to work with a dog that's meant to do it. Performance is different. I really performance is any dog, as long as you have something that really motivates the dog. So hey, if you can find a shelter dog, um, I wouldn't use a puppy. I wouldn't do an eight week old, but a young shelter dog? Absolutely. If that dog is already showing you the basics of motivation and focus. Not dog reactive, not people reactive. I mean, heck, what what what else do you want? To me, that's a very promising, a very promising situation. And resilience. Really. Right. Because their ability to engage within a challenging environment, if you see that early, that's exactly a huge green flag. What other specific signs of resilience do you tend to look for in, you know, any dog, dog or dog from a shelter just when evaluating temperament? Well. I, um, was involved. A few border collies got picked up near me recently. They were running loose and somebody I know picked them up and was kind of overwhelmed. And I said, I'll come out and take a look at them if you want. And I did. And um, so we're guessing we don't know anything about these dogs there. I'm going to guess 6 or 7 months old based on coat and teeth and, um, clearly had never been on a leash because you put one on a leash and it flips around every which way, and clearly had never been separated from each other, because if you tried to take one away, they just literally pancaked to the ground. Can't move. I was there for two hours, and in that two hours the puppy who pancaked and simply could not move because I was trying to remove her from her siblings. She's eating food while pancaked on the ground. That's a lot of information, and by the time I left, I was able to put her on a leash without her throwing herself madly around. And I was able to take her to the backyard, and she was able to explore a little without her litter mates. I was able to take one of the other puppies out of the pen, and after a few minutes of, um, God, I'm going to die, it was walking around the front yard and actually played tug with me for like three seconds. That is resilience. The fact that these puppies, I don't know how they were raised, nobody knows where they came from. Probably a local farm. Um. We're social with people and find with the the latest dogs. They had no advantages in life. That's going to be the working assumption because nobody has claimed these dogs. And we certainly made an effort to find them homes or to find their original home. Resilience is when you see a distressed dog that gets over it. That's that's what I'm looking for. It's almost like, what are natural life things? I watched a car drive up the road backfire. I saw the dog startle. Look move on. Right. So resilience is just anytime you see distress, how long before the dog gets over it and the next time it happens is the dog worse or better? So some dogs, though, there will be a backfire and they'll startle and they'll shake it off and they'll move on. And then there's another backfire. And now it's a longer period of time before they recover. And now there's a third one and it's even longer. Whereas other dogs go the other way. They startle, they get over it. The next time they hear it, they barely flinch. And the third time they don't notice it at all. So these are kind of all factors of resilience. Or if you pick a dog up and you restrain it, you want to give it a vaccine or, or cut its nails or whatever. And uh, when you put it back down, does it shake it off and kind of go, that was mean. And then it's over it and it's back to how it was before. Or is it now sitting by itself in the corner and unable to move past the distress? I mean, I'm not going to say like, oh, that's terrible. You shouldn't take the dog because I don't feel that way. I think some dogs are just sensitive. But in general, resilience is going to serve you well and it is something to look for. Or like the dog that goes to the shelter, it's terrible. There's a lot of barking around it. You take it outside, you take it for a walk. Starts out low and nervous, and after five minutes is trotting down the street. This, by the way, one of these border collies, uh, went to a foster home and I went and visited it to give her some help. And I said, let's take the dog for a walk. And we took the dog for a walk. And I swear to God, within five minutes the dog's tail is up. It's walking through a park. There's kids, there's strollers, there's dogs, and it's this is the same puppy that one week old one week later or before it was flattened on the ground, unable to move. So that's resilience in a nutshell. Now, that puppy did go to a working agility home. And she called me and we had a long talk and I said, you know, I think my sense is that this dog is going to be quite good based on resilience. That was the thing I was looking for. And, you know, so far so good. So to me, resilience is I don't set things up to make things weird. I just watch and let weird things happen because they just do. If you if you let life happen around the dogs, things will happen and you can observe and see what comes next. Yeah, definitely. Well, and you can teach a little bit of resilience over time. But to your point of the genetic package, uh, that takes a whole lot longer and you may only get to a certain point depending on where the dog is coming from genetically. So see, seeing a predisposition for resilience is just a really, really good thing, especially in a pet home, because pet people, as a rule, either are not dog trainers or don't want to be dog trainers, or they do, but they're new to the whole game, so they really don't have the sophistication, the timing, the ability to recognize it's time to pull back. This is becoming stressful. Um, resilience is probably if you could only have one thing in a pet dog boy that would take you far. A dog that recovers from stuff happening around it? Yes. If you liked this episode, don't forget to share it with a friend and remember that the best way to motivate me to create more is to leave a five star review to make sure you don't miss the next one. Follow and subscribe to the subwoofer on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you're listening. If you have thoughts or questions about what we talked about in this episode, I would love to hear from you genuinely. Feel free to DM me on the social channels for this podcast, or send an email to the subwoofer podcast at gmail.com. We'll see you next time on the subwoofer.