The Clutter Conversations
A podcast for anyone who has ever dealt with clutter, personally or professionally.
The Clutter Conversations
Understanding Chronic Disorganization: Strategies for a Stress-Free, Organized Life
What if your clutter is more than just a mess? What if it's a chronic issue affecting your well-being and relationships? Join us on the Clutter Conversation podcast as we unpack the complexities of chronic disorganization (CD). With insights from the Institute of Challenging Disorganization, we distinguish CD from occasional clutter—and from hoarding—by highlighting its persistent nature, history of failed organizing attempts, and the overwhelming feelings it brings. Personal anecdotes bring these concepts to life, setting the stage for deeper discussions in future episodes.
Ever found your spoons in your kids' rooms? You're not alone! Keeping an organized household, especially with children, can be both amusing and exhausting. We tackle the humorous yet frustrating saga of missing silverware and explore how personalized organizational systems can make a difference. Drawing on advice from home care guru, the Fly Lady, we talk about the importance of daily routines and maintaining a clean sink. We also touch on the emotional toll of trying to stay organized, particularly when mental health and personal circumstances come into play.
Thinking of seeking professional help for chronic disorganization? We've got you covered. Learn about resources like the Institute for Challenging Disorganization and their Clutter Hoarding Scale. Discover practical strategies for breaking down large projects and the critical role of maintaining routines, even when faced with challenges like chronic pain. We emphasize the value of involving family members in these efforts, ensuring long-term success. Finally, we wrap up on a lighter note by celebrating Jason's triumph in organizing the barbecue drawer, coupled with our playful debate about who did more work, adding a dash of humor to our collaborative journey. Don't miss out—subscribe and stay tuned for more insights on achieving a stress-free, organized life!
Resources
Conquering Chronic Disorganization by Judith Kolberg (https://amzn.to/4eRBA6E)
Making the SHiFT: True stories of how people affected by chronic disorganization learn to live a deserving life by Jen Cazeras, CPO-CD (https://amzn.to/3xKy64W)
I’m Right Here: 10 ways to get help for hoarding and chronic disorganization by Jill B. Yesko (https://amzn.to/4bugXKQ)
For more information or to schedule a FREE consult call with Katie, be sure to check out KCH Organizers!
Hello and welcome to the Clutter Conversation, a podcast for anybody who's ever dealt with clutter personally or professionally. I'm your host, katie Hoshaw. Today we are diving into a topic that many people struggle with but don't fully understand.
Speaker 2:Taxes.
Speaker 1:Chronic disorganization.
Speaker 2:I was close.
Speaker 1:I mean, it is called the clutter conversations. Oh right.
Speaker 2:Right, sorry, sorry.
Speaker 1:We'll see if different wife. Yeah, yeah, whoa. Hey guys, it's not what you think.
Speaker 2:That's not what you think.
Speaker 1:I live in California, not Utah.
Speaker 2:Props Utah.
Speaker 1:Back to the topic at hand.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Chronic disorganization. Whether people are tuning in because you or someone that you know is dealing with chronic disorganization, or maybe you're just curious and you're kind of a fly on the wall, you're in the right place.
Speaker 2:I do have a quick question. Yeah, you did say chronic disorganization. I did, and earlier in this very episode you said we live in California. Is our marijuana disorganized? Different podcast again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, I am Get your head in the game dude missing the mark all over the place. Get your weed in order, everybody that's a future episode, not a future episode I mean if, if people need me to get their weed in order, I can do that.
Speaker 2:I have done that, in fact you know I'm retired right from law enforcement. Could you, could you not organize people's drugs? That'd'd be great.
Speaker 1:No, it's legal.
Speaker 2:Oh my God that doesn't Okay, all right, I mean, hey, quick question for you In the realm of professional organizing what does chronic disorganization mean? Can we get back on topic please? This is why I am here All right, to keep you on the straight and narrow. Can we edit you out in post?
Speaker 1:Can we do that? No, we can't. All right, all right, all right. Chronic disorganization. Chronic disorganization, often referred to as CD in the professional organizing world.
Speaker 2:In the parlance.
Speaker 1:Not the kind of CD that you would like to listen to. You know, jam into your tunes on a road trip. Okay, guys, I don't really know what's happening for this podcast today, but here it is, Welcome.
Speaker 2:This is how we do.
Speaker 1:All right. Chronic disorganization is not just having a messy home or a cluttered workspace. It's a more persistent and long-term issue that impacts various areas of a person's life. According to the Institute of Challenging Disorganization, of which I am a part of, chronic disorganization is defined as having a history of disorganization in which efforts to change have failed and undermining of one's quality of life due to disorganization. And, most importantly, I feel, is the expectation of future disorganization.
Speaker 2:Like you just roll over and just it's always going to be like this, it's always going to. I'm just going to wallow in my own mess. Exactly, okay, exactly. Can I ask you a personal question? Oh, please, do you think one and or all of our children are chronically disorganized. I'm thinking of one in particular.
Speaker 1:Oh, I know which one in particular you're thinking of and I have had that conversation with myself multiple times, but no, I don't think that she is chronically dis thinking of and I have had that conversation with myself multiple times, but no, I don't think that she is chronically disorganized.
Speaker 2:And the reason?
Speaker 1:I don't think that is because her efforts to organize, because she is very single minded in what she is organizing. Her binder is a great example of that. Her nose.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a work of freaking art.
Speaker 1:Is a great example of that. She does not have that perceived. I'm not going to be successful in this. It's just going to drag me down.
Speaker 2:So it's not necessarily just your garage looks like garbage, it's. You walk out and you see the mess and you think this is it and there's no point. It's more of a mental approach than it is a physical manifestation of stuff.
Speaker 1:Well, we're going to get to that because there's various reasons that people do exhibit these features, and we're going to talk about that.
Speaker 2:Okay, it's almost like I set you up, perfectly. I know.
Speaker 1:But first we have to understand what chronic disorganization is before we can talk about the things that may bring on and onset an episode of chronic disorganization. So it's important to realize that it's not just about having a little bit of clutter here and there. Chronic disorganization is complex and it involves a consistent pattern of disorganization. Is complex and it involves a consistent pattern of disorganization over a long period. It affects a person's daily functioning, their relationships and their overall well-being. People with chronic disorganization often feel overwhelmed and unable to get organized, despite their numerous attempts.
Speaker 2:Okay, I have a clarifying question. Then, overwhelmed and unable to get organized despite their numerous attempts? Okay, I have a clarifying question then. Now, when I think of chronic disorganization, I immediately go to the TV show Hoarders. It's different, those are two different things, right? Yes, because correct me if I'm wrong, you know like you do.
Speaker 1:I'm batting my eyelashes. You guys can't see it.
Speaker 2:Yes, I could hear it in the in the microphone. That's like a bat's wings. It's crazy I was thinking butterflies but oh sure, whatever a a hoarder doesn't see this in my layman's brain, doesn't see the stuff, doesn't see the problem. It's just these are my things and this is these are where the things go. A person who's chronically disorganized, it feels like there's this mountain of stuff hanging over them and they're like it's just never going to get better. This is just the way I live now and is that kind of similar.
Speaker 1:That is a really great way. That's a great way for a layman to describe it. Yes, there's a little bit more of that self-awareness, because they already have tried to quote, unquote, fix the problem and they have failed over and over again.
Speaker 2:Okay, whereas a hoarder wouldn't necessarily see it as an issue. Exactly so. It's a self-awareness difference.
Speaker 1:Correct, okay, correct, okay. So let's talk about some of those causes and contributing factors. Chronic disorganization can stem from a variety of sources. Some common ones include mental health issues like ADHD, depression, anxiety and OCD that all significantly impact one's ability to stay organized.
Speaker 2:All right, I get the first three. Yeah, I can totally understand the first three, but I would think that the OCD person would be the opposite of chronically disorganized, because they're like everything has a place, everything's got to be in its place. How does that affect? How does that come into play? I guess I don't understand that one that affect.
Speaker 1:How does that come into play? I guess I don't understand that one. Many people with OCD are hyper fixated on a certain aspect. So if they are hyper fixated on one certain aspect let's say making sure that their kitchen is disinfected and clean and safe and ready for use they will spend all of their time focused on making sure that the kitchen is disinfected and tidy and reorganized and all of that To the detriment of everything else. Exactly, okay, exactly. It kind of puts a magnifying glass on that which is important to them.
Speaker 2:Okay. So does that help clarify that a little bit. Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:I mean things like depression and ADHD and anxiety.
Speaker 2:Those are easy.
Speaker 1:Those things can just pull you down into. I can't.
Speaker 2:A vortex of blech.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a really nice way of saying that. Thanks, that's really good, I speak from experience, in that that is a very accurate way of talking about how we feel.
Speaker 1:In that that is a very accurate way of talking about how we feel. Another cause that can trigger this chronic disorganization are life transitions. Major life transitions like a new job, moving, the loss of a loved one or becoming a caregiver can trigger disorganization. I will say that there's also something called situ trigger disorganization. I will say that there's also something called situational disorganization. So the process of moving things get thrown into upheaval when you're putting a bunch of stuff in boxes and that chaos of those last couple of days and things just get tossed into a box, even if you're trying to stay, you know, very, very organized, move and have everything in its right places. Same thing with adding a baby to the family is more situational. The root of that chronic disorganization goes much more past that. Where it's now I can't cope Now, I can't catch up now, and it's all that mental game of why bother Because it's just going to be worse down the line.
Speaker 2:Well, the good news with the situational one, at least for babies, is that situation only lasts for 18 years.
Speaker 1:If we're lucky.
Speaker 2:He said, as we prepare to move our eldest hundreds of miles away.
Speaker 1:You know what she can take her chronic disorganization somewhere else, somewhere else, that's right.
Speaker 2:Love you honey.
Speaker 1:But those life transitions and the ones that I've mentioned also play with your emotional state, like when we talk about grieving and having to incorporate somebody else's belongings. I've had a number of clients that they are incorporating deceased parents items, for example.
Speaker 2:We've gone through that with my mom.
Speaker 1:We have, but not to a huge extent.
Speaker 2:They did a lot of purging before she actually died.
Speaker 1:Yes, which was a service to us A hundred percent. Yes, which was a service to us, a hundred percent yeah.
Speaker 2:That was mom in a nutshell Right Doing things for other people, even in her freaking death. Yes, that's, you know. That was her perspective. Yes, yeah, not chronically disorganized, my mom no.
Speaker 1:Very much the opposite of chronically.
Speaker 2:She might be on that OCD side where she might be that OCD side where you know all the hallmark cards have to go out on time. Oh gosh, yes absolutely so those.
Speaker 1:I've had a number of clients that have been grieving, that they are grieving and by letting go of some of those things it turns into I'm letting that person go, I'm letting a piece of that person go, and the fact that you brought up your mom is absolutely perfect as we are nearing the five-year anniversary of her passing.
Speaker 1:She, with all of the love in her heart, gave me some of her clothes we were wearing the same size-ish and she gave me a bunch of her clothes. And I remember there were these set of pants. They were very nice pants and they had they fit me and I had them for a little while. I incorporated them into my closet but I just didn't wear them. And I remember having that conversation with myself that I'm not saying goodbye to her If I say goodbye to the pants, like she would want me to wear everything and feel amazing in it. And I remember I actually wrote a blog post about it years and years ago that I said Sandy's pants could go away, like, basically, it's OK to release those things because I still have so much love in my heart. That, yeah, covers the bases.
Speaker 2:I guess yeah, and she would want you to ditch that stuff if it didn't fit either physically or in the space or at that time of life or whatever. Never in a million years would she want to be a drain or pull you down because you're like I got to hold on to this stuff. There's certain things that we have that mom has given me over the years, even before her diagnosis, but over the years that I will never look at me, never get rid of, and I know you're okay with that. It's not a lot of stuff, it doesn't serve a daily function, but it's a small reminder of what she meant to me and it's okay to hang on to stuff like that. Now, if I had a whole room shrine thing going on, that's a little bit of a difference.
Speaker 1:In my opinion it's a little less of a shrine thing and more of a failure to decide thing, and there's a big distinction between those two yeah side thing, and there's a big distinction between those two. So if you have a room and have the space to have a room that is dedicated to a shrine for your mom, that we are not impeding our family, our daily life, which is a marker of chronic disorganization by having this room of shrine, of chronic disorganization, by having this room of shrine, then that's totally okay. If you are kicking a kid out of their room because that's more important and you don't want to have to go through all of the stuff, you just want to store all the stuff.
Speaker 2:that's a problem. Okay, I got you. Okay, I always say- Adding a room to build a shrine. Got it.
Speaker 1:Can we go up? Can we go upwards?
Speaker 2:I don't want to take any of the yard away.
Speaker 1:That's a good point, but one of those I will often tell people if it's treasure, treat it like treasure. So if you're going to keep a room of shrine, it's not in boxes, it is displayed respectfully so that you can go in and honor and enjoy that.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So another source and cause of chronic disorganization are personality traits. Some people naturally have a harder time organizing due to their personality traits and cognitive styles. So if they have a deficit in executive functioning skills, that can make it hard. If that's also part of those, I wouldn't call them mental health, but they are learning styles and learning differences and brain-based conditions that could prevent them from being able to make those decisions. And then, of course, physical health issues If you are chronically in pain, which I have a number of clients that that's the case and they have for ease. They have Amazon and Costco deliveries coming all the time.
Speaker 2:And they never do anything with the boxes.
Speaker 1:But the boxes they pile up and pile up. Because when you talk about if you've ever heard of the spoon theory, that everybody there is no spoon.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, blowing your mind right now. We just rewatched the Matrix and that's from the Matrix. Oh yeah, I'm assuming that's not what you were referring to. It is not Okay. So what is the spoon theory?
Speaker 1:Yes, it has to do with chronic illness where everybody wakes up with the same number of spoons, and some people it takes one spoon to completely get ready for the day.
Speaker 2:Oh, I've heard, yeah, I've heard of this. And that includes, you know, picking out what you're going to wear during the day. Other people it takes five spoons for them to get their feet on the floor to get to the shower and to pick what they're going to wear.
Speaker 1:It literally takes our children a whole drawer full of spoons. You know how? I know, because they're all in their room. We find all of them in their rooms. I am curious how many of our pieces of silverware they've thrown away over the years.
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely a handful, at least.
Speaker 1:And a little bit. What's funny, our youngest was putting away the dishes. They alternate on dishes and dogs and she was putting away the dishes.
Speaker 2:The other day Taking care of the dogs, not putting the dogs away.
Speaker 1:No, no, and dogs, and she was putting away the dishes, taking care of the dogs, not putting the dogs away, no, no. And uh, she was putting away the dishes, the silverware, and she's like why do we have so many spoons and forks? We don't need this many spoons and forks. Oh, yes, we do. Um, there was a time when I had two of those spoons because your sister took them all into her room yeah, amazing.
Speaker 2:She goes away for the summer and we have all of our spoons again. I know it's incredible.
Speaker 1:It's crazy, but those physical health issues can really drag a person down where they, for convenience sake, they have these things delivered and then, for health reasons, they are unable to maintain the organization and the system that goes with moving those things along. So how do you know if you or someone that you know might be dealing with chronic disorganization? Some signs to look out for are a longstanding struggle with keeping spaces organized, despite the numerous attempts to change. Significant impact on daily life, including missed appointments, lost items and difficulty completing tasks.
Speaker 2:I feel like these are kind of these can be subjective, right when you say numerous, numerous to me may be different to somebody else, right?
Speaker 1:That is the beauty of what I do it is wildly subjective, which is why when you To the individual client.
Speaker 1:Correct and that's the personalization of systems and how will it actually function for them. I love that subjective piece because I am objective in terms of its stuff Right, but subjective in how can I make it work for them. So another one of those signs of disorganization is a sense of shame and guilt or embarrassment at the state of their home or workspace. Guilt or embarrassment at the state of their home or workspace. And the fly lady talked about chaos. C-h-a-o-s.
Speaker 2:Hang on.
Speaker 1:The fly lady. The hell's a fly lady. The fly lady is a cleaning home care guru that has.
Speaker 2:I've never heard of this person.
Speaker 1:Actually, you have heard of this person, but probably 20 years ago when I was a newly married didn't know how to run a household person. She likes to do cleaning challenges. She breaks the house up into zones she talks about you know, we're going to clean this zone first and this is what happens for cleaning that zone. And this is what happens for cleaning that zone. She focuses on daily routines, including when you get up. You get up and get dressed to shoes. She wants all the way, if you're going to take a shower, don't take a shower and then put on comfy clothes. You take a shower and you get dressed like you're going to walk out the door and be somewhere and approach life that way.
Speaker 2:That makes sense she talks about.
Speaker 1:Well, the people that are no shoe people are like what, oh, I mean, do flip-flops and birkenstocks count? Because I'm in those are shoes um. Another thing that she is a big proponent of is polishing your sink every single night. Now all the dishes away now hang on you polish?
Speaker 2:okay, not just clean out the sink. Right, right, right, right, I will. This past week, this has happened while you were traveling in europe without me again, uh, and he'll get over it.
Speaker 1:What?
Speaker 2:not, probably not, and we only had one kid here. The other two were out and I spent the not a lot of time because it was just two of us cleaned out the sink and scrubbed it down real quick and it looked great. Now I did not polish it, that is. That strikes me as pretty excessive. However, it was pretty disheartening when I cleaned out the sink and then, a half hour later, there's stuff in the sink and I didn't put it there. So you know, it can be disheartening and I'd imagine if you had some of these perspectives or mental health issues or some of these triggers we've talked about, that you could see that even you put in the effort and you're like, yes, I feel accomplished, I feel victorious, I feel proud of myself, and then half hour later, it's dirty again. What is the fricking point? You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is a situation.
Speaker 2:Situation got it, got it, got it yes because that's not a lasting and forever thing.
Speaker 1:When our kids are 18 years, so I said that already grown and flown, they can put all their dishes and they learned that. I learned it from you, they learned it from me because when I was homeschooling and home all the time.
Speaker 1:I didn't want to spend my entire day doing dishes and that's what it felt like cooking for three children and myself and having to like constantly be doing the dishes. So I would load the sink up and once a day, right before you got home, I would put the stuff away that would drive me absolutely bonkers no, it doesn't drive me, bonkers, I know that's.
Speaker 2:That's a. That's a different thing. I, when I cook, I try and clean as I go because I'm trying to make it easier for whoever's doing dishes. But yeah, that's a whole other podcast. Get back to your topic, will you, good God, get me all fired up about dishes.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, we are talking about the impact on daily lives, so if somebody were to be chronically disorganized and they would put their dishes in the sink and not have anybody around that would want to take part in making sure that it's not like. You and I are a pretty good team when it comes to we have to do the dishes. Yeah, when you're chronically disorganized. Let's say, if I were chronically disorganized and I had three kids and I was home all the time and I would make all of these dishes and I would go to wash them. But now my dishwasher is also full of dirty dishes, so there's nowhere for those to actually go, and then I have to hand wash some of the stuff or I'm not going to hand wash stuff, I'll just wait until the dishwasher is ready to go and then I have to empty the clean dishwasher to fill it back up with dirty dishes and then it's full again, but we're about to make it like it's just stressing me out right now.
Speaker 1:This is the. This is the world of a chronically disorganized person, like eating Oreos at the dentist's office. Why freaking bother? I have kept trying, and kept trying, and kept trying. I don't have the support, I don't have that kind of infrastructure that makes me feel like I can be successful to keep up with that stuff.
Speaker 2:I have a question. If in this made up little thing we're talking about here.
Speaker 1:It's not made up, it's real life for so many people.
Speaker 2:I see you guys, I see you I talking about here. Uh, it's not made up, it's real life for so many people. I see you guys. I see you, I was talking about the, the example that you just laid out. Oh yeah, that's daily life for a lot of people. So in that example, that person has three kids. Is this something that those children now have, as, I mean, this is their normal existence? Would they then grow up to be chronically disorganized, because that's their norm, or you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:Yes, organization is a skill. Organization is a skill meaning it can be learned and it can be taught. So if you are not equipped with that skill to be able to teach your children, I want something better for my kids. If you don't have that skill to be able to teach, then they are not going to learn that skill and they will struggle in the future. Or they could go the complete opposite way and be like crazy organized because it was uncomfortable for them to have been raised in a house that was chronically disorganized.
Speaker 1:You find that a lot in hoarding families people that were brought up in a family with hoarding tendencies is that it makes them very uncomfortable to be in a place like that and sometimes they'll go more towards the minimalist bent where they're like I can't.
Speaker 1:Or they think, if I can just do it better than what my family of origin, what they were doing when I was growing up, if I can do it better than what that felt like, then I'm doing it better for my kids. But there is that learned skill of order, of making things happen on time. That is an executive function Seeing the progress and being able to map out the steps. That is also something that chronically disorganized people need to be able to have clarity on, and this is a great example of how a professional can help. So, speaking directly to the people that are or love someone that you think is chronically disorganized, there are resources out there with people with skills and hearts that are there to help, myself included. So, seeking professional help, like a professional organizer, such as KCH Organizers, especially one trained in chronic disorganization, of which you can find on the ICD, the Institute for Challenging Disorganization website, you will find a whole slew of resources and professionals that are well-equ equipped to help your family.
Speaker 2:So if I'm in that situation and let's say I stumble across your website and I don't want to go to another website, is there some sort of allowable seal that says hey, I'm also certified in chronic disorganization? Or do I need to collect a bunch of references? You know different professional organizers in my area then go to the ICD website and verify that they're like how would I verify that you're? You would have to go to the ICD website.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well to verify. If you need that verification from an outside source doing your due diligence, yes, I would suggest going to the icd website what is the address for the icd? Uh institute of challenging disorganizationorg I believe I'll put it in the show notes. I'll make sure that that the show notes link.
Speaker 2:You'll put it in the show notes. I sure will. Is that what you're gonna do?
Speaker 1:that's what I'm gonna do. Thank you, editor-chief. Anyway, so one of the things about finding the right person especially for somebody that is chronically disorganized and dealing with shame and guilt and embarrassment a personal relationship is far more valuable than letters after a name or a certificate. So have a phone call. Have a phone call with someone, because if you jive with someone, if you are like that felt really good to talk to someone that I didn't feel like I was being judged. It felt like they were there to shoulder the weight of this burden with me. That's your person.
Speaker 1:I don't care what they are skilled in. I do appreciate the option that ICD has incredible resources for professionals that do care to do the extra classes and leveling up their service, but really it is a heart's mission to be able to help people that are chronically disorganized. So another option for strategies and solutions for this is therapy. You can actually work with a therapist to help address underlying issues that contribute to disorganization. Some of that might be self-esteem issues, some of that might be the ADHD and this perception that everything is your fault and that you are always going to be behind the eight ball. You can work with those underlying issues with a trained therapist and I like to think I mean as a professional organizer. I do say there's a lot of therapy in my sessions, but it's nice to have a second opinion.
Speaker 2:It's nice, and you're also not a licensed therapist.
Speaker 1:I am not a licensed therapist.
Speaker 2:That's very important to put on the podcast.
Speaker 1:I've said that multiple times. Good.
Speaker 2:Every episode. Let's do it.
Speaker 1:But I am not a licensed therapist, but I understand clutter and I understand people's relationship to clutter. I don't have all of the letters after my name, nor do I have the student loan debt that it took to get those letters, but I do have the passion and the research behind me and if I don't know the answer, I go out and I find it for you and in terms of some of those resources, I'm going to link some of those in the show notes. There are some incredible books out there that can just give you more of a self-awareness about this. When you ask, am I chronically disorganized? Is this something that would benefit for me to find professional help? There are books out there that can kind of walk you through the process and I'll make sure to link to a couple of those in the show notes.
Speaker 2:My goodness, you are doing all the work.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'll make sure to link to a couple of those in the show notes. My goodness, you are doing all the work.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'll make Jason link them in the show notes. There you go In reference to, you're going to put something in the show notes and what the ICD website is. It is challengingdisorganizationorg. Thank you, challengingdisorganizationorg, if you scroll down and there's a little button third one down says find an organizer. Oh, that's good. Fill out the info and find one local to you.
Speaker 1:They also have developed the Clutter Hoarding Scale, that's on here too. It's a wonderful resource. If you're like, I can't tell you how many times people say I'm a hoarder in our discovery calls and I'm like.
Speaker 1:No, you're not, Whoa, you're probably not Just because you're uncomfortable in your home doesn't necessarily make you a hoarder. So the other thing that KCH coaching can help with are things like creating small steps, actionable plans that don't feel quite so overwhelming. I could look at my garage and be like, oh my gosh, that's a humongous project. But then if I look at the smaller steps of of, I know what things are. Some of the things are donations and I know some of the things are to sell and I know some of the things are just to be able to give to somebody else or to return to someone. If I can break it down into those smaller, more actionable steps, bite-sized pieces, that's how you eat the elephant. We also help create the systems that make sense for your brain, that make sense for the problems that you are currently having to stay organized. And then the maintenance with regular routines. Kch does offer maintenance programs where we've come in and we've made the systems.
Speaker 1:But I can't make chronic pain go away. So if a client has a flare-up from a chronic pain, they might be able to stay up on their laundry for a little while, but they have this flare-up and all of a sudden they are back behind the eight ball. So maintaining those things, whether it's with a professional or it's with a family member that is also aware that we are trying to work on this situation. That can also be very helpful, including children that you want to be able to encourage to not be chronically disorganized, to choose another path. Those kinds of small routines can be very helpful for that.
Speaker 1:So, for those of you looking for more information and support, there are resources available. The Institute for Challenging Disorganization offers educational materials and a network of professional organizers. Additionally, there are numerous books, online forums and local support groups that can provide assistance and encouragement. You're not in this alone. It is okay to ask for help, it is okay to feel overwhelmed and it is okay to be able to appreciate this portion of your journey able to appreciate this portion of your journey.
Speaker 2:I feel like it's a good place to stop, because this is a pretty deep concept and topic and we're just kind of hitting the surface of things. But it's a good definition. It's a good place for people to kind of marinate in that a little bit. So before we just end the episode, I feel like there's something we need to bring up your barbecue drawer damn right did I rise to the challenge?
Speaker 1:oh, can I have like a drum roll? Do you have a drum roll on that little pad? I don't know probably here it is Nope, that's not going to do it.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's the wrong button. No, no, hang on. This is the one I'm looking for, that's right ladies and gentlemen, jason did the barbecue drawer.
Speaker 1:I sure did. Not only did he do the barbecue drawer, he did it immediately after we finished recording the last episode, like.
Speaker 2:Not now.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:It wasn't. No, you were gone.
Speaker 1:No, you did it before I left. You did it before I left, which was why I was like, well, we're going to have to tell people that he did it. Now, I guess I think I feel like we did it. Maybe you did a little more. You did it before I left.
Speaker 2:I was. Maybe you did a little more you did it before I left. I'm going to disagree, Chuck.
Speaker 1:Can we see the playback, please? No.
Speaker 2:Great, this is my podcast.
Speaker 1:So I'm right. You did tell me that I could tell you when you were wrong, and I was right.
Speaker 2:Did I Was that in our staff meeting that didn't happen.
Speaker 1:No, it was at the beginning of this podcast. Whatever so we'll go ahead and listen to the replay.
Speaker 2:I don't listen to shows that I edit.
Speaker 1:Well, anyway, thank you for joining us for the Clutter Conversations. Please be sure to subscribe and tune in next time as we continue to explore ways to create a more organized and stress-less life. Until then, take care and happy organizing.
