Stories Sustain Us #32 – The Impact of Advocacy in Childhood Mental Health

Summary
In this episode, Michelle Harper shares her journey from her childhood in the Midwest and East Coast to her career in healthcare policy. She discusses her educational experiences, including her time at Penn State and studying abroad in Spain, which shaped her perspective. Michelle reflects on her early career in Washington, DC, and her transition to California, where she focused on child and family research and healthcare policy. Her experiences at the LBJ School and working for organizations like Consumers Union and Kaiser Permanente highlight the importance of collaboration and advocacy in effecting change in the healthcare system. Michelle discusses her journey through healthcare legislation, her transition back to Texas, and her current work at the Meadows Institute focusing on mental health care. She emphasizes the importance of early intervention, sustainable solutions, and the need for advocacy in mental health. Michelle shares insights on the complexities of mental health systems and the collaborative efforts required to implement effective change. The discussion highlights the significance of community support and the role of policymakers in addressing mental health needs, particularly for children and youth.

About the Guest
Michelle Harper, MPAff, is based in Austin and has over 25 years of experience in health and human services research, policy, and program operations. Michelle serves as the Vice President for State Partnerships at the Meadows Mental Health Policy Institute. In this role she provides leadership and strategic guidance on projects and initiatives aimed at improving the mental health care system for children, youth and their families, and works to build capacity for the delivery of evidence-based solutions through the development of local and state partnerships. 

Show Notes
Meadows Mental Health Policy Institute: https://mmhpi.org/

Takeaways
•Michelle grew up in the Midwest and East Coast.
•She studied sociology at Penn State after being weeded out of a science major.
•Michelle's early career focused on child and family research in DC.
•She transitioned to California to work in healthcare policy.
•Michelle worked for Consumers Union in San Francisco.
•Kaiser Permanente provided her with insights into health plan operations.
•The implementation of legislation can be complex and challenging.
•Michelle's journey back to Texas was influenced by personal connections.
•Working for the state provided Michelle with valuable experience in policy implementation.
•Mental health care is interconnected with various systems affecting well-being.
•The Meadows Institute focuses on scaling effective mental health solutions.
•Early intervention is crucial in addressing mental health issues in children.
•Sustainable mental health solutions require collaboration across different sectors.
•Advocacy is essential for ensuring access to mental health care.
•Community involvement can drive policy change and improve mental h

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Transcript

Steven
Mental health care is one of the most pressing issues of our time, yet implementing effective policies and scaling solutions remain significant challenges. But what if the key to sustainable mental health care lies in early intervention, cross-sector collaboration, and strong community advocacy? Hey everybody, I'm Steven Schauer and this is Stories Sustain Us, the podcast that brings you inspiring conversations with change makers.

dedicated to making the world a better place. Today I'm joined by someone who has spent over 25 years working to improve health and human services policy, Michelle Harper. From analyzing legislation for major health systems to shaping Medicaid and CHIP policy in Texas, Michelle's career has been filled with pivotal moments that shaped her passion for mental health advocacy. In this episode, we'll talk about her journey from sociology student to policy leader.

her work at the Meadows Mental Health Policy Institute, and how collaboration and community-driven solutions are paving the way for better mental health care. Let me tell you just a little bit about Michelle before jumping into this episode. Michelle Harper is the Vice President for State Partnerships at the Meadows Mental Health Policy Institute in Austin, Texas, where she leads the efforts to strengthen mental health care systems for children, youth, and families.

With a wealth of experience in state and federal policy, Michelle has played a key role in expanding access to vital social services through her work at the Texas Health and Human Services Commission, Kaiser Permanente, and the Consumer Union. She's a proud alumna of Penn State and the LBJ School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas at Austin. Now I first met Michelle at the LBJ School over 25 years ago.

and it's an honor to reconnect with her today to discuss the critical work she's doing. So how do we turn policy into action and create lasting change in mental health care? Let's dive into that conversation now, here on Stories Sustain Us, where we are inspiring action through the power of storytelling.

Steven 
Michelle, welcome to Stories Sustain Us. How are you? Thank you for joining me.

Michelle Harper 
Well, thanks for having me. I'm excited to get to connect with you.

Steven 
Yeah, we were talking a little bit before the recording started how it's been a long time, but you're another one of my colleagues and friends from way back when we were in grad school together at the LBJ school. So good to see you.

Michelle Harper 
you as well.

Steven 
So, let's jump into your story. You kind of know how this goes. We're gonna learn a little bit about you and then we'll learn a little bit about the work that you're doing at the Meadows Institute. I'm looking forward to hearing more about that as well. So what's your story, Michelle? Where did you grow up and what was life like for you growing up as a kid and how did you get to where you are these days? It is a lot, it's a big question.

Michelle Harper 
Gosh, that's a lot. Okay.

So I grew up in the Midwest and East Coast. I spent my first 10 years in Madison, Wisconsin mostly, and in rural Wisconsin. Yeah. What? How have we not talked about this?

Steven 
No kidding. I'm from Wisconsin. West,

I don't know, West Bend, Wisconsin, not too far outside of Madison is where I've spent my first seven years of life. How did we not know that? Yeah. So, well, there we go. We already learned something about each other.

Michelle Harper 
No way!

That's so funny!

that makes me happy.

Steven 
Sorry to interrupt, but I was like, Wisconsin, yeah

Michelle Harper 
No, you should. This is exciting. So did

you ever, did you grow up having Friday fish fries when you were in Wisconsin? Do you remember?

Steven 
I vaguely remember Friday Frish Fries being a big deal. And I have a good recollection of a giant winter storm in like 1976, I think it was, 76 or 77, which was probably the final straw that made my parents decide we need to go to Texas. It was a giant winter storm. I loved it.

Michelle Harper 
Yes.

Steven 
I had a blast outside, but I think that was like, we gotta get out of this from my parents' perspective. But yeah, I do remember the Friday fresh fries. So you obviously do as well.

Michelle Harper 
Yes, I love Friday fish fries and fried cheese curds and oh, so fun. Even my husband is a convert. It's just, they're just so enjoyable. My grandfather used to make, he used to always go fishing and he would make these perch fish fries on Fridays and they were so amazing. I miss it. So I spent my first 10 years there, mostly in Madison and then my dad and stepmom live in rural Wisconsin, like an hour and a half north of.

Steven 
Yeah.

Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
Madison, so spend a lot of time there too. Then moved to Champaign-Urbana for middle school or junior high. My mom was getting her PhD in education. And so she was doing her master's at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, and then her mentor left. So we ended up moving to Illinois. Lived there for middle school and junior high, which it's super flat there. A lot of corn fields, but the most amazing people ever.

Steven 
Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Harper 
Just absolutely, just the neatest people. Then we moved to Western New York and I went to high school there. My mom became an assistant professor. so that gorgeous, beautiful waterfalls, but really dark in the winter, small town. And I was just ready to leave the small town. So.

Steven 
Yeah.

Okay.

Michelle Harper 
After that, well, my stepfather came into our life. He's probably one of the most amazing people ever. He's since passed, but introduced me to food and books and psychology and all these amazing things. And then I was ready to leave small town life. So I went to a big university in Pennsylvania. I went to Penn State, which yeah, yeah. And 18 year old Michelle made this decision because I didn't know anyone going to that university.

Steven 
I'm sorry.

Yeah.

OK, that is a big university.

Michelle Harper 
and it had a great football team. And that is how I made my decision where to go to college. Yeah. I mean, right?

Steven 
That's very sound reasoning. Nice.

Michelle Harper 
yeah, after four years, middle of nowhere, I was ready to leave and I'd studied abroad in Spain, which was an amazing experience. And then ended up getting my first job and moving to DC. So that's sort of my earlier years.

Steven 
Yeah.

Yeah, let me dig a little deeper and backtrack. Siblings or just you and your mom kind of bouncing around or, know, how, yeah, tell me a little bit more about that if you don't mind.

Michelle Harper 
yeah.

No, no. So I do have siblings. I have my sister who is, we've been very close over the time. She's a couple of years younger. She lives in DC. She also works in the policy world and does healthcare policy. And then my step sister who is in Western North Carolina.

Steven 
Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, now growing up then as you were moving from Wisconsin to Illinois to New York was, know, education, you know, it sounds like from your mom's perspective, you know, in her path, the story I'm telling myself was you getting a good education and you being, you know, a good student was probably part of the expectations of growing up or am I imagining that?

Michelle Harper 
I think you're imagining that, it's not that it wasn't an expectation, but it was never really spoken. And I was a good student, right? I was the oldest child. I was super motivated and coming from a single parent family, I did not want to be reliant on anybody or anything. And so I wanted to get a good education and kind of be able to support myself and whatever that, I didn't know at the time, right? As a 13 year old, what does that mean? But.

Steven 
Okay, tell me more. Yeah.

Yeah.

Sure.

Michelle Harper 
All I knew is I had to get good grades to go to a good college. And so that was kind of my own motivator.

Steven 
Yeah, and were there extra curricular activities, sports or activities outside of school as you were growing up that kind of shaped your life a little bit as well?

Michelle Harper 
I mean, it's interesting. I don't know how much they shaped my life, but they probably did in ways I just don't think about now, but I had a lot of fun. We played what was really neat about moving to the East coast is girls could play soccer, at least in Madison when I was younger. They didn't have girls soccer teams. No. And so it was awesome. It was so fun. mean, I'm sure I took lessons from that into, into my future. And I think one of the things that I just think of finally, when I think of that, other than it was

Steven 
wasn't a thing yet. Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
and we'd have playoff games when it was freezing out. It's just the camaraderie of being on a team was really enjoyable and it was great exercise.

Steven 
Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah. That, you know, growing up in the early years in Wisconsin, I can recall I knew what the Green Bay Packers were before I really knew what the NFL was, what football was. that, you know, playing football seemed to be the this is what you're going to do as a young, you know, know, male kid anyway, boy kid growing up. But when I moved to San Antonio, that discovered soccer as well. And another, I guess.

Michelle Harper 
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Steven 
combination there tied into our lives. I grew up playing soccer and that camaraderie you talk about. Guys, can't beat that. mean, that, you know, getting that sense of teamwork and all striving towards the same goal together and pushing each other to be best as best as you can be individually and as a team. I know those lessons pay dividends still to this day in my life. yeah, right on. So what did you study then?

at Penn State, what, you as you kind of picked the university for its football team, I'm assuming there was education involved in those four years. so yeah, so what were you majoring in? What kind of was your thought process there as a young adult?

Michelle Harper 
my gosh, isn't that funny? Yes. You look back at those years and now being in the job I'm in, realizing that your brain is not fully formed till you're older makes a lot of sense. I'd always been a good student and thought, I'm going to do math and science. Cause that's so much of what you study when you, at least that's what I look back on and think about what you study when you're younger. And it was not the path for me. will tell you my first day of college, it was,

Steven 
Sure. Absolutely. Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
bio 101, eight o'clock AM, it was in an auditorium and we walked in and they basically told us there are a thousand people here today and our goal is to weed you out. Like we do not want you to stay in this major. And so I certainly got weeded out. Yeah. And I'm so grateful for that. Like I just would not have been happy going down that path. So then I, you know, like

Steven 
You

least they were honest about it.

Absolutely. Right. Right.

Michelle Harper 
had to think about what am I gonna do, thought about liberal arts, and I really enjoy people, and I really enjoy thinking about groups of people and kind of how things come together. so sociology was what I decided would be great. And then I had minors in Spanish and business, because of course in the back of my head I thought, well, if I'm gonna be self-

Steven 
Okay. Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
sustainable, like sustain myself over time, I've got to figure out some skills that are actually usable. So that was where the business came in, which I'm not sure that really helped propel me forward, but it was good. I got to take some interesting classes like economics, which were super cool. I would say sociology was neat. had, I had to take some really interesting classes and two of my professors, you know, it was a really large research university. And so sociology was a top program. So I, I was really lucky in that I got to take.

Steven 
Yeah, absolutely.

Michelle Harper 
some really interesting classes from some amazing professors who really pushed and challenged you to do more. And so I got to take a child and family class that was awesome. And it really helped kind of shape the trajectory of my career and then what I studied and what I've focused on since then. And then I also got to work for another professor as a research assistant and then work with some of his grad students as a teaching assistant and which was the most amazing experience. were just, they...

Steven 
Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
pushed me and supported me in a large university. look back on that now and I think how fortunate I was. So it was great.

Steven 
Yeah, you didn't get just lost in the shuffle with

the thousands of other students. You feel you had some personal connections there and personal attention. That's wonderful.

Michelle Harper 
It was awesome. And then when it was time to get a job, I decided to go and I did not want to get a PhD right away because I didn't know, well, do I really want a PhD? Certainly I knew what it took growing up with a parent who was getting her PhD and my stepfather had a PhD. And I thought, well, that's what you do. You get a PhD yet didn't really feel right. But I was able to go to DC and work on child and family research issues. And both of those professors played a huge role in helping me secure that job and kind of

Steven 
Sure. Sure.

Michelle Harper 
land on my feet. I'm just so grateful.

Steven 
Yeah, well before I dig a little bit deeper into the DC work, because I'm curious about that part of your path, you mentioned studying abroad in Spain as well, and your Spanish minor, I'm assuming, helped open the door to get over to Spain. Tell me a little bit about that, because that sounds like a fun adventure for a 20 to 24 year old to spend some time in Spain. So yeah, what part of Spain?

Michelle Harper 
my gosh. It was amazing. I mean, it was absolutely,

it's at Salamanca, the University of Salamanca. So it's about three hours Northwest of Madrid. And we lived with families. you, I mean, my family didn't speak any English. And the first day at that point I ate meat, but not tons of it. I remember our first lunch, we had just arrived. The family was feeding us and I remember asking what I just eat, eat and then they're

Steven 
my drain, okay, yeah.

Michelle Harper 
They said, Tenera. So I was like, okay, great. I ran back to my room, got my dictionary out and it was veal. And I was like, my God, I just ate a baby cow. And that's kind of how it started, but it was amazing. It was such a great experience. The culture there, especially back 30 years, gosh. yeah, 30 years ago. That's unbelievable. I know.

Steven 
Yeah. Yeah, I didn't wanna ask, but I kinda did the math in my

head and I kinda knew that's when it was.

Michelle Harper 
my gosh. And this was before like Zara and this sounds silly, but now you go to any, any country now and there's might be a Zara or an H but back then Zara is from Spain and we would get so excited because they'd have the rebajas and we could go shopping and it was so different and like everything felt different back then being in another country where now I feel like you can travel and get along so much easier, more easily with English or everything looks the same. But back then it really felt

Steven 
Sure.

Sure. Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
different and being in it. Yeah. But it was really neat. I mean, we'd have these late lunch. It was so fun because in Spain too, everything's focused on family and friends. And so you'd get up, you might have some coffee, then you would go to class or work. Then you might meet up with your friends and in the Plaza Mayor, you'd see especially the old men walking around talking. And it was more old school, especially back then. the moms might be home cooking, but

Steven 
It was a culture shock, yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
Then you go home and you'd have your huge, you know, middle of the day lunch, your comida. Then everyone would take a nap. Then you would go back to school or work. And then you might end around five and then you'd go back and have coffee or drinks with friends. And then you go home, you'd have dinner at 10. I it was just so different and really a neat experience. It was fun.

Steven 
Yeah, yeah, that

sounds wonderful. Spain is one of the countries I haven't been to yet, but it's on the list to get to and everybody I've ever talked to, including you right now, makes it sound like a lovely place to visit. I'm glad you had that experience. That sound, yeah.

Michelle Harper 
It is. I am too. And I

will say the one thing I think I took away from that, you know, it was my first time really leaving the country other than going to Canada back before it was a big deal and you needed a passport. we would go back and forth from the East coast to the Midwest and sometimes going through Canada was the easiest or, know, living in Western New York, you would go to Canada very easily. So, but this was my first time really leaving the country. so knowing that I by myself could get myself around another

Steven 
Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
country, you know, whether I spoke the language or not in Spain, I spoke the language, but then we were able to travel after the semester ended and went to Italy. did travel with some friends and then I did travel by myself through Italy and people would just, it was the most rewarding experience ever being a 20 year old traveling by herself in these different countries. People were always so gracious and kind and would adopt me and help me just find my way. And it was, it was a really neat experience.

Steven 
Nice.

Sounds wonderful, sounds wonderful. So thank you for going down that road with me. I didn't want to leave that hanging out there that you did this European adventure and we didn't chat about it. But you're back in DC now. You're working in policy at the beginning of your career. Tell me a little bit about what you were doing, who you were working for, what you were focused on. Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
Yeah.

So I worked for this group and they're still around and they've grown and they're huge now called Child Trends. So they focus more and more on policy as well, but it was really focused on child and family issues, research around a whole host of different things. It was started, I believe in the seventies by a couple of folks who broke off from the Urban Institute.

Steven 
Okay.

Michelle Harper 
was an amazing experience for a number of different reasons. One, my colleagues were just incredible and they really helped me grow and learn so much as a young person. They were supportive and they really allowed me the opportunity to take things on and show initiative and just kind of figure out what worked for me and what didn't. I will tell you, the parts I didn't love were some of my colleagues would just

Steven 
Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
thrive sitting in an office by themselves with data sets and just running codes and figuring it all out. And these regression analysis, which intellectually I think is super exciting, but I could, I realized I could not do that all day long, every day for the rest of my life.

Steven 
Sure.

Yeah, yeah, I'm

with you. Yeah. Thank goodness for people who can, because the data is so important in helping to make informed decisions. But yeah, I am not one of those either. So I get it.

Michelle Harper 
Right!

I know

it would back, know, I mean, this was in 1996. the internet didn't really exist. So what led me to go down the policy route was that we would be doing all this amazing research, a lot of federal grants, but I would just remember it would all live in these big black binders. So it might be like three years of work and would end up in this big black binders by section and

Steven 
Sure.

The big binders, yeah.

Michelle Harper 
the information was not easily accessible. It was so important. Like if you wanted to prevent teenage pregnancy, these were actionable solutions and information about why this problem has happened and what you can do about it. And so that's sort of what led me to policy school because we were three miles from the nation's capital and yet none of that information was getting out. And so, I mean, it was just kind of one of those interesting things.

Steven 
Yeah.

It it was, yeah.

Michelle Harper 
And so that's sort of now, I mean, gosh, it's everywhere, right? You can get whatever you want. I remember just spending so much time in this, just trying to give thought to what can we do about this? And so that's kind of what led me to decide to go to policy school was that I wanted to take that information and share it with policymakers so that they could make better informed decisions.

Steven 
Better

choices, yeah, yeah. So then you left DC, you stayed there in the 99, I guess, when you went to the LBJ school as well. Is that kind of the timeline or was there anything else between DC and Austin?

Michelle Harper 
Yeah.

No, that's it. But I had no intention of moving to Texas and no intention of going to, I didn't even know about the LBJ school. I went to a career fair at Georgetown. One of my mentors at Child Trends, she was getting a policy degree at Georgetown and they were having a career fair. And I thought, I'll just go check it out. But I had intentions of moving back to the Midwest. I thought I'll go to the University of Chicago, I'll go to University of Michigan. They have great policy schools.

Steven 
You

Sure.

Sure. Big schools, yeah.

Michelle Harper 
Chicago did stuff in child and family and Michigan had a new leader who was this economist who focused on child and family and poverty issues. She was super cool. And then I met Courtney Brown and I went to, I know, right? And I went to this career fair and she was like, you should just come check us out. Just check it out. You know, we have these, it's a neat program. We have these amazing alumni. And my mom was super confused. Like, what are you, why are you doing this?

Steven 
Yeah.

Courtney.

You

Michelle Harper 
I got on an airplane, a month, I got accepted, got on an airplane to come visit and everyone was lovely and nice and kind and kind of reminded me of the Midwest. And so I thought, okay, well, this could be super cool. And then I met this amazing human who shared a love for cookbooks. And so we were in stats class that I went to visit and we were talking about cookbooks. And then she said, you know,

Steven 
Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
You gotta come, you gotta come here, you gotta go to school, you need to live with one of my best friends. She's coming down for the program. And so I left thinking, well, this is strange, but intriguing. Maybe I should move to Texas. And then I met Sarah Widoff, now Williams, and I was like, okay, she's amazing. I should move to Texas. And so that's sort of how I moved to Texas.

Steven 
That's awesome, that's awesome. Yeah, it wound up being a good choice it seems like. yeah. Yeah, there's, I kind of fell into going to the LBJ school in a similar, similar way. I was actually planning on going to law school and a friend of mine whose father was a well established attorney in San Antonio.

Michelle Harper 
It did. It texted us, yeah.

Steven 
I was telling him, know, man, I'm gonna go to law school. And he's like, why in the world do you wanna be a lawyer? And I told him, I, I wanted to make policy. was, know, I, my undergrad was environmental science and I'd always kind of thought of this. I know there's better ways we can do things and I wanna be part of those solutions. I wanna be part of figuring out how we can do things better. So I wanna go make policy, I wanna go help, you know, maybe not be an elected official, but I wanna go help the elected officials make better choices and.

He you don't want to be an attorney then you want to go to public policy school. I had no idea they that existed. I didn't know there was any such a thing. I was so not prepared for what I was wanting to do. and yes, I looked into the LBJ school and JFK school and a few others and I was already in Texas and I just did a day trip up to the LBJ school and sat in some classes and I was like, yep, this is where I need to be. These are my people. And turned out to be an amazing, opportunity. I'm glad I got in.

Michelle Harper 
That's cool.

Steven 
Um, cause I got to meet, yeah, there was definitely some imposter syndrome when I got there meeting people like you and others who've already were in the career already doing things and, know, so I played soccer, right? That was, that was my, you know, that was what I brought to grad school. So, um, really fell into it like you did. um, so we spent a couple of years there.

Michelle Harper 
I feel the same way.

Steven 
enjoyed ourselves, got a good education. What did you end up doing then, know, in the early 2000s and moving forward before you get to the Meadows Institute? What have you been doing since we last talked 25 years ago almost? Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
Yes.

Yeah. Which I still can't get over. That's so crazy.

Gosh, what have I been up to? So, well in grad school, I decided to focus on healthcare policy. I'd kind of always been in health and human services policy. And to be honest and super frank, I figured the healthcare system is so messed up. There's going to be a job. Like there's always going to be jobs because we really need to do more to fix this. and it's.

Steven 
You

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Harper 
intriguing and interesting and complex and complicated and you need to figure things out so you can always learn and grow and it's been a good choice. I don't think it's some of the solutions that I thought maybe 20 years ago have happened yet using technology and such. I mean they're starting to don't get me wrong but in grad school sort of chose that I had toyed with the idea do I do more research and I

Steven 
Sure.

Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
in grad school, did some qualitative research and some ethnographer stuff and realized this is not for me. I thought, oh, maybe I'll try the qualitative side. I'd done the quantitative side and realized sitting for eight hours with data sets where it's not me. Well, I also realized that qualitative research wasn't really me either. Like I love to be able to use that information again to inform what we do as a society, but just wasn't for me. And then.

Another serendipitous moment, I happened to be at a healthcare policy conference in Washington, DC, and I met this human from California who's amazing, who had been working in healthcare policy in California for quite some time. And so he said, you know, like, if you ever need, if you do want to move to California and you need help finding a job, just give me a holler. And I thought, okay. And I tucked his card away. And then one of our cop colleagues at the LBJ school was looking for a job. And so I said, and she wanted one in California. And I said, call this guy.

I'm sure he'll help you. He said he'd help me. I'm guaranteeing he will help you. And then she literally a week later ended up in this fellowship and was moving to San Francisco and got a job with them. And so then this gentleman, Earl was like, well, if you need help, like I'm still the offer stands. can make connections for you. And the next day the organization he worked for posted a job, all about stuff I've been working on in grad school about trying to get children enrolled in healthcare.

through schools. And so it was just another serendipitous moment and this kind of inflection point. And so I had originally thought, oh, I'll move back to DC. That's where all the policy action is. That's where so much change happens. But when I visited California at the age of 13, I kind of always had this wish to go back and spend more time there. And so that I kind of packed up, got the job packed up and moved to San Francisco. Yeah.

Steven 
Yeah.

Yeah.

Nice, so how many years

do you spend there and were you working at the same organization the whole time or what was your San Francisco life like?

Michelle Harper 
it's such a great place. It was so fun. We had, it was a great place to live as a young person, just like DC, just like Austin. mean, they all are just great places when you're young. Yes. so fun. so I worked for Consumers Union. They are the publisher of Consumer Reports Magazine. And at the time they still do, I believe some advocacy work on different issues, but at the time they had an office in San Francisco. They actually had one in Austin. I think.

Steven 
Yeah.

Yeah, very vibrant. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Harper 
and DC. So they would, but each of the offices acted sort of independently. They would go out, there was some core things they worked on, but then they might go out and get grants. So for three and a half years, I worked on trying to take what we were doing locally and affect change on a greater scale by working the policy angle in California. And so was all again, trying to get children enrolled in Medicaid and CHIP through the schools or even private insurance and

figuring out what were some of the mechanisms to do that, and then got to work on some other issues too. And then at my last year I was in San Francisco, I worked for Kaiser Permanente Health Plan, where it was a really great experience. My first job, obviously I mentioned it was research, then I got to do advocacy. And while I loved research and realized that wasn't for me, and I loved advocacy, the part missing for me was that

And I didn't realize this till a little bit later. think at the time I kept thinking, well, I want to use research, which we did, but I wanted to like bring more of a, a collaborate, like collaboration together. I'm a collaborative to do more of that policy work. And then I realized, okay, you use research advocacy. So important to effecting change, but I'd never implemented anything before. And what did it really mean when a bill's getting proposed or it's yes. So we're yeah.

Steven 
Yeah, it'll be on that side of it. Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Harper 
So Kaiser was a really neat opportunity for me. mean, you probably know of Kaiser now being in Seattle. They are super interesting health plan and that they own their hospital systems. They contract with one provider group. So their admin costs are super low compared to most health plans. And it was a really neat place to work. So I worked for the health plan and we would analyze and implement legislation for both the health plan.

Steven 
I do. Yep.

Yeah

Michelle Harper 
their insurance product and for the hospitals. And it was really, I just loved it. I loved the people I worked with. It was, I loved being able to really analyze legislation and think about the changes being proposed from the perspective of the hospital. And of course I would work with all my colleagues throughout the systems, but they, know, if you, sounds silly, but you might want to pass legislation about putting up a sign in a hospital. There are so many signs in hospitals today. And so,

As an advocate, you might feel great about that win, but then when you actually have to go implement it, it can sometimes give you pause or where are you going to actually put this on and how's it going to have an impact? Does it really have an impact? so we made the decision to move back to Texas, or I would have loved to have stayed in that job longer. I know I would have learned a ton and it was a really eye-opening and really great experience to be part of that implementation.

Steven 
Yeah.

Now you said we moved back. I know you mentioned to me this offline, but you'd met, guess, someone in San Francisco. That's the we that moved back to Texas is, yeah. Is that, so, yeah.

Michelle Harper 
yes. Yes. Yes.

My husband, Brian, who's super fun and does completely different stuff. He's in marketing. so I met him through some friends, someone I went to Penn State with who was going to become a roommate. Let's see. He lived with her brother. So we both lived with, we lived. So it was just kind of funny on a Friday night. His, her brother was not home, but she wanted to go visit Brian because and

Steven 
Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
She didn't know him. I mean, she knew him, but we didn't know. Neither of us really knew anyone in San Francisco. So I thought, sure, I'll go to this random stranger's house and your brother's not home. Why not? And that's how I met Brian.

Steven 
Yeah. Yeah.

I love how your decision to go to Penn State just to, because it was a big school and, you know, wound up years later connecting you to your future husband. I love that full circle of how life can do that for us. That's amazing.

Michelle Harper 
It's amazing. And since then we have found we have all these random connections. It is the strangest thing ever. Like one of my roommates in undergrad took his stepmother's job at a jewelry shop in Pennsylvania. Another one of my girlfriends, let's see, how do I even make this simple? She, one of his closest friends living in LA, her, okay, how do I say this? Her best.

Steven 
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Harper 
Okay. So my, one of my friends from studying abroad in Spain and my girlfriend's from Penn State, she had a best friend, Karen. Well, her brother was this guy, John, and he lived in LA. Brian lived with him and Brian was like, it's one of his closest friends, but this is before I knew Brian. Yeah. Yeah. And my friend Jill came to visit here and was going out to LA to visit all of Brian's friends. This was years before I met Brian, but I remember hearing about these guys for it's, but it's totally disconnected. And then.

Steven 
before you knew it, yeah, there's connections, yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
The small town I mentioned, I went to high school and Brian at the University of Maryland had a fraternity brother from that small town. And so I brought Brian home and he's like, wait, do you know so-and-so? And then the last crazy connection was that one of my girlfriends in San Francisco, who was in my reading club or book club, she went to semester at sea with Brian. So like Brian knew her, he knew her husband. They'd, you know, this was years later. Anyway, it's just crazy how the world works.

Steven 
you

Yeah, that's

it is it is I love all of that. Thank you for thank you for sharing all that because that that is I mean that that how the universe connects us is in ways that are just unimaginable is is so fascinating. So that's great. So get back to your story. Go back to Austin. Are you at this point going back right now? Did you start?

your tenure at the Meadows Institute or was there something else going on before you got to the Meadows Institute? Because I know that's where you are these days and I definitely want to dive into that important work. But I don't want to miss any steps in the process. was there anything else between getting back to Austin and the Meadows Institute or is that kind of where you landed when you got back?

Michelle Harper 
gosh, no, it's funny. spent a decade working for the state, which was never my intention. So when it was time to leave San Francisco, or we were getting, we were thinking about it, I reached out to several people. and, professor Warner at the LBJ school actually told me that, one of the alumni that he really thought highly of was looking for someone at the health and human services commission. And I thought, well, no, I don't really want to work.

there. I don't know that I want to work for like a state agency, but it just so happened another person I contacted about jobs, I was thinking, Oh, I'll go work for a consulting firm. That'll be great. There was when I was in grad school, I did my thesis or policy research paper, whatever they're called PR on a topic and gotten to know these folks at a consulting firm. So I was actually flying here to talk to a consulting firm.

Steven 
this date.

Sure.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Michelle Harper 
when this woman from the state agency called me and said, hey, I know you're in California, but maybe we could just chat. And it was so serendipitous because I was coming to Texas in a couple of days. So I met with her and I thought, again, another random connection. My grad school roommate had actually interned for this woman, Lisa, who I didn't realize because she had since gotten married and changed her name. And so all of a sudden I thought I'd always heard about this woman for like five, six years, how amazing she was and great.

Steven 
yeah,

yeah. Give it a shot, yeah.

Michelle Harper 
So then I thought, maybe I should go work for her.

Yeah. So I got the job. We moved to Texas a couple of weeks later and it was great. It was a really great job. I worked there for a decade and I learned so much about implementation. was, it was just, it was so rewarding in so many ways.

Steven 
Yeah.

Fantastic. Well, yeah, we're doing, I haven't officially worked for this day. I worked for elected officials at the state level and elected officials at local levels, but I've spent most of my career since then, last 20 years or so in government working for, and it is rewarding. is kind of where you can help effectuate that change, not just give the recommendations, but actually see the legislation through.

And yeah, there's some, at least for me, some meaning to that work. So I can appreciate your journey. Yeah.

Michelle Harper
yeah. Well, and

what I've learned about policy work is it was, I enjoyed being an advocate, but at the time, I mean, I was like, I just didn't have as much experience as I have now. And so you think of policy ideas and they might be great solutions, but you realize it's all in the implementation. So that great idea might not be a great idea once you actually have to implement it and be at a large state agency.

Steven
Sure. Yep.

Michelle Harper 
It was an enlarged state. was very interesting implementing things because what worked in Houston might not work in Midland, but at a state level, you're getting directions sometimes from federal agencies or your state legislature or the governor's office. And so you're trying to make these things work, but it can be really difficult given a state that has a lot of rural areas, has more urban areas and how do you actually make that work?

Steven 
Right.

Sure, definitely sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
It, we had a lot of tight timelines and had to, you know, pull together to figure out how are we actually going to make this work. And I worked with the most amazing people, just smart, dedicated, just wonderful. It was, it was great.

Steven 
You

Yeah, yeah.

I feel the same. know there's often government employees can be branded as, you know, not the best. And I've found that to be quite untrue that the people that that dedicate themselves to public service, many, if not most of them are just incredible human beings that are just working in under.

almost impossible situations to, like you said, meet timelines with nearly nonexistent budgets and trying to make these miracles happen following the policy direction that the electeds set under the constraints that.

Michelle Harper 
Yeah.

Steven 
that we all have given, you know, whatever, you know, whether it's health or environment or that we know whatever field we're in. So yeah, there's amazing people that are public servants and they don't, I don't think get some of the appreciation that they probably deserve. So it is definitely an unsung profession. So thank you for your years of service there as well. So now Meadow Institute, you eventually leave the state then.

Michelle Harper 
I agree.

Okay.

Steven 
So

I want to make sure we give enough time to talk about what you're doing now. And mental health work is, I think, important in all of the realm of being health care. think mental health, for me, stands out as also an underappreciated area. So I'd love to learn a little bit more about what you're doing now to.

affect policy in Texas and improve systems and some of the different work that you're doing there. So tell me bit about what life is like now at the Meadows Institute for you.

Michelle Harper 
Yeah.

You know, again, I work with amazing people, which really have made this job rewarding. I've learned so much and it's so complex. mean, I think that is the one of the things that has amazed me about the mental health care world is that it just doesn't live in one system. There's all these different systems that impact someone's wellbeing. And so it's been really fun to work with this multidisciplinary team to figure out.

how do we scale things that work? And I think what intrigued me about the Institute is when I was working for Medicaid and working for the state, I realized there was more that we could do. And I'd learned about the Institute and kind of knew about some of their expertise. And the more I engaged with the Institute, I realized, wow, there's things that can be done outside of government to affect change. they were just, the Institute is about 10 years old. And so,

the children and families area was just getting started. This was about eight and a half years ago. And so I kind of leapt at the opportunity to help get this off the ground and figure out what could we do. Yeah, it is. We know so much of what works, but again, it's all about the implementation. so, I mean, school districts know about evidence-based programs, but how are they going to implement their job, their

Steven 
Yeah. Yeah. Create something new sounds exciting. Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
real, their day job is making sure students are learning and that they're graduating. They don't have time to sit and figure out the stuff. Or if you're in a pediatrician's office, there are some amazing evidence-based programs that can be implemented to help kids get connected at the first signs of mental illness. But it takes one knowing about them and then figuring out how to implement them. Or if you're a community-based organization and then there's the whole sustainability. So it's like,

Steven 
Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
Okay, we need to implement these solutions. People don't know how we can help. You need to do it to fidelity for it to really work. And then how do you actually pay for this in the long run, whether it be government, whether it be private sector, whether it be foundations. And so it's been a really, it's been a really rewarding experience. There's so much that can be done, Steven. I mean, that's, and we're doing it.

Steven 
Yeah. Where the resources come from. Sure.

Yeah, can,

yeah, give me an example of something that maybe you've seen through, you know, in your time there that you saw something that could be done and you were able to maybe get it implemented or help make a change. Yeah, I'm sure you have plenty of examples, but can you share one just so the audience can begin to connect those dots of what are we actually talking about when we talk about mental health and children and family? So.

Michelle Harper 
Yeah.

Steven 
Help me understand or help everybody understand.

Michelle Harper 
Yeah, so I would love to. So one of the things I've, you know, as we've been on this 10 year journey to figure out how to affect change in Texas and even nationally now is that children wait often eight to 10 years for, to get access to services. You know, like something might, you might be noticing something at home or a teacher might be noticing something, but it's easy to think, that's just, you know, they ate something different that day or they didn't get enough sleep. and as parents, we're not really taught.

Steven
Yeah.

Sure.

Michelle Harper 
how to identify how we might best help our children. Or if you're a teacher, you're not trained in behavioral health, you're really trained to, again, do academics. Or if you're pediatrician, really, you you have that well child checkup or sick kid checkup and you might not be asking certain questions. And so when we first started out, we focused a great deal on children and youth who were either in or at risk of being in the child welfare or juvenile justice system. And super important work. And yet,

Steven
Sure.

Sure. Sure.

Sure. Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
if

kids are waiting eight to 10 years and ending up in these systems, we kept thinking, how do we get to them sooner? And so, right. And so we still need to do that work. And yet, yeah, how do we get to them before they end up in these systems when we can really stop that progression of that illness? And so we started focusing a great deal on how do we support pediatricians' offices? How do we support schools? And several sessions ago, the Texas legislature passed

Steven 
Yeah, it was too late at that point. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Right.

Michelle Harper 
some legislation we help support that brings the medical schools to the table and supporting pediatricians and supporting schools and identifying mental illness and getting treatment as soon as possible. So it's kind of like a phone your friend, if you will. You might be a pediatrician and oftentimes pediatricians aren't trained about behavioral health needs in school. So this allows them an opportunity to call a colleague at one of the medical schools, get a call back within 30 minutes, and then they can actually

Steven 
No, right on.

Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
know how to maybe assess what a client, you know, their patient needs or how to address their needs or how to get them maybe referred to someone who can actually help support them. Then in schools, every Texas school has access to this thing called TChat, which every time it is, oh my gosh, it's gonna, the acronym gets me every time. And so, I know, I know.

Steven 
Yeah, yeah.

There's so many in government, so yeah, it's all right.

Michelle Harper 
It's embarrassing my brain sometimes there's so many in government, so many in mental health care and every system has different. So in Texas, what's really exciting now is that every school can get support from the medical school. So if you have a student who's showing different signs of having some behavior issues and you're not sure what to do, you can get them assessed by the medical school. So it's all telehealth, I should tell you. So schools will have, I mean, a room.

Steven 
There's so many. Yes.

Michelle Harper 
or whatever, could be a closet that you turn into a nice comfortable room for a student. Yes, a parent has to give consent. Nothing can happen without parental consent. And so then if the parent says, yes, want my student to be assessed, the medical school can do some assessments and then they can provide some free mental health counseling or skills building. It's amazing. And this started out, it's up.

Steven 
Sure, some privacy, yep.

Of course. Sure.

Michelle Harper 
the legislature just made a huge investment this past session at 300, over 300 million. So it started around a hundred million now it's over 300 million. And so it's, it's really been a neat process and it came from trying to figure out what's going on nationally. We, you know, try, how do we get to students or students or patients in general, faster children and youth. And so these were solutions that we looked, you know, and then how do you actually make it work for Texas? And then how do you start?

Steven 
Sure. Sure.

Michelle Harper 
How do you bring people, get those services out to people and then how do you scale it over time? So it's, it's been awesome. And since then, yeah, huge.

Steven 
Yeah, these are big challenges, big challenges and

maintain consistency with that patient. How does that patient then from initial assessment through maybe a lifetime of care, I some mental health issues don't just go away. right, so these are massive, massive challenges. Sounds, and I commend you for working on them.

Michelle Harper (44:14)
Yes. Right.

Steven 
for me, my wife's in the mental health profession and so I get to hear some of the challenges from her career path and just personally, have mental health issues in my life and my family and friends. It's everywhere, yeah, right. It's just one of those things that I think we're, as a society, starting to get comfortable with, acknowledging this.

Michelle Harper 
All of us. Yeah.

Steven 
these issues exist. You know, it's not like a, you know, a broken arm or you know, that's a broken arm. Let's go just put a cast on it or, you know, cancer or diabetes or, you know, some things that are easy to kind of acknowledge whether you're the patient or the provider, you can kind of see that's an issue. Let's address that issue. I mean, what's going on inside our skulls is a little bit harder to, to see. And I appreciate you pointing out to you that it's easy to

overlook, you know, the little student just didn't sleep well or they didn't eat right and you're not necessarily seeing these, you know, signs that this is a person who's in need of help. So these are super challenging issues and I'm so grateful for you and others like you who are tackling them because we need, we need it. We know our community needs it. Our society needs it. So, thank you so much for working on it. Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
We do. And I think you, it's such an important issue. And I think

you bring up a great deal. I mental health care is health care. And so how do we make sure that people get access to the health care they need? And that's kind of been how we think about it. And you mentioned cancer is true. mean, if someone has breast cancer, you know, we have these treatments are going to get assessed right away. And so we should be doing the same thing for ourselves, our friends, our colleagues who have mental health needs. And it's it's health care.

Steven 
Right.

Right.

Yeah, absolutely. And that, that to me is, you know, for anybody who's wondering, well, why is this discussion on a show about sustainability? first and foremost, cause healthcare is about sustainability. And then as you just pointed out, so rightly mental health is, is a component of healthcare. So if we can't figure out how to sustainably care for ourselves, holistically, not just the physical.

shell that we're all walking around in or however, you know, whatever our abilities are. But the internal aspects of our mental health as well is for me, clearly part of a sustainable future that we all should be striving for. you know, how do we continue to improve humanity in this really critically important area? So I'm so grateful for your time and coming on and

Michelle Harper
my gosh.

Steven
talking about it, raising awareness, because I think that's a big component of it. Start getting away from the stigma that can be attached to some of mental health diagnoses and recognize it's just health. Let's just talk about it.

Michelle Harper
Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Well, and think you bring up a really great point because we do both need to sustain ourselves and our own wellbeing and we need to help providers sustain their practices. And so what's really been awesome is I get to work with amazing colleagues and you know, there's evidence-based practices that show a return on investment. If you put them in primary care practices,

Steven 
Absolutely.

Michelle Harper 
that can help make sure children and youth or adults get to services right away. And you can sustain those over time. It's really thinking about, for example, the collaborative care model. started, actually, I think it's the University of Washington, I should know this. And it started focused more on adults and we've done a lot, my colleagues have done so much to really expand that to children and youth. And what it is, is it's someone in your practice who helps support the pediatrician. So the pediatrician might notice something or this...

behavioral health care manager can assess what's going on. And then they use a psychiatrist and this consultative method, you psychiatry, it's expensive to access. And so here you're using them more as like a consultation. So the behavioral health care manager can assess what's going on, use the psychiatrist as sort of like, Hey, I think I need your guidance on this, this, that, but they don't need more than like five, 10 minutes. making that up, but you know, right, whatever the patient's needs are. And so there are sustainable models that can be used today.

Steven 
sure.

Michelle Harper 
and even primary care so that we can make sure you go see your doctor and you get what you need. It's both sustaining ourselves and sustaining this workforce that we need.

Steven 
Yeah,

society as a whole, I'm thinking back to your earlier mention of can you catch something going on in a child's life at a younger age if they're having a mental health challenge that can be noticed at eight or 10 or 12 before they end up.

you know, being 18, 20, 22 and maybe then in the criminal justice system because something was caught, you know, was missed before, you know, those, you know, again, talking about sustainable systems with regards to resources, helping a child when they're younger and getting them the help they need to maybe live a healthier life versus missing that. And then the expenses we have to

Michelle Harper 
Yes.

Steven 
put out both as a society as well as actual revenues in the criminal justice system, that's not cheap to house people. It's not good.

Michelle Harper
No.

Steven
for them, obviously, who wants to be incarcerated. And those systems, while very valuable and needed in a society, are not inexpensive to operate. So if we can put the resources on the front end and help a child and redirect them educationally as well as mental health-wise and physical health-wise, put those resources on the front end, we might actually find...

from a society perspective, know, tax revenue perspective, it's a better use of our money than waiting until someone breaks the law and then they go to jail, which is where they start getting their mental health care. Right.

Michelle Harper 
yes.

Yeah, right. Yes,

get this, some of the work that I get to do to support my colleagues, 50 % of our referrals into the juvenile justice system come from schools. I mean, teachers are overwhelmed, especially after COVID. You know, they're not taught how to deal with the behavioral health needs of their students. You're trying to figure out how to get that kid out of a classroom because they're disrupting everybody. But by taking those kids out of the classroom and removing them puts them down this path. And people don't realize that, right?

Steven 
sure.

Sure.

Michelle Harper 
the juvenile justice system. so my colleagues who I just think the world of have been doing some really neat work and what things I love about my job as I mentioned earlier, we're multidisciplinary. So we're looking at the solution across all these different systems because our children don't just live in school. They, yeah. So it's like, okay, well it's the, I'd again, I think the world of my colleagues, they've been bringing together all of these different, so they bring the juvenile justice folks in, the educators in, they bring the parents in and they sit down and they try to figure out like what's happening at that point.

Steven 
Yeah.

Yeah, it's intertwined, it's connected. Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
that that youth got removed from the classroom. Like, why did it happen and what tools were available? And then what could we do instead? And it's the most enlightening experience, I think, for everybody at that table, because they're realizing, whoa, wait a second, that decision at that moment that I made caused this reaction, like this chain of events. Yes. And so it's been really rewarding getting to work with all these different systems and trying to figure out how can we stop that from happening.

Steven
Yep, the long-term impacts of that. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle Harper 
so that we can invest in these youth up front and not have to spend all this money on them when they're incarcerated.

Steven
Right, right. I could spend the rest of day chatting with you about this, because I think it's so important for the individual, obviously, who gets the help. It's life changing. But for society as a whole, is what kind of world do we want to live in? What kind of city, state, country, world do we want to have in the future? And I appreciate.

Michelle Harper 
Yeah. my God, yeah.

Steven 
all you're doing to make sure that it's a better one than we have now. So thank you for that. So I do want to be respectful of your time though, even though we could keep chatting and continue to nerd out on policy.

Michelle Harper 
Yes.

Steven 
I probably need to let you get back to work pretty soon. So, let me change the subject here a little bit and ask you, Michelle, what's your, what's your call to action now that folks have kind of heard this discussion about the significance and in the, in the importance of mental health programs, particularly in, youth, and families.

What do want people to do with this information? How can they help? How can they get involved? Supporting your work or just in general, what do you want folks to do?

Michelle Harper 
Well, think one of the things that I think is important to remember is that mental illness is treatable. mean, up to 90 % of people's mental illness can be treated. And so we know what works. We know the solutions. And it's how do we work together to actually implement solutions that are evidence-based and put them into action? And then how do we scale that on the policy level? So we take the research, we put it into practice, and then we scale what's working and we can tweak things.

by making sure we're involved in the conversations with our policymakers. And it sounds daunting, but I think like when you were in San Antonio, mean, the San Antonio folks are really great at communicating with their legislators about what's working for them or what's not. I mean, I've seen it, parents communicating that. I mean, it's just so important that we use our voice and that if something's happening with our child, that we bring up those issues and don't just, I mean,

my daughter started kind of having these different anxious thoughts. And at first I thought, it's, you know, this and that, but it ended up being something that I got was able to get her some skills training and how does she actually work through some of that and address it in a really healthy way. But at first I was kind of thinking, gosh, and if it hadn't been for this job, I think I wouldn't have addressed it as quickly because I, yeah, I think that's exactly right.

Steven
Yeah. Yes.

Might've missed it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, thank you for sharing that. That's very personal and vulnerable thing to share. So I appreciate that. And I'm so glad that your daughter's found the tools that she needs to, you know, move forward in life in a healthy way. Cause like you said, those tools are available. They're out there. We just need to, you know, acknowledge when we need help and get the help. So, well, I will make sure on the show notes to put,

Michelle Harper 
Yeah.

Steven
up the website for the Meadows Institute so folks can learn more about where you work and some of the policy and programs that you're researching and supporting and the systems transformation that you're trying to do in Texas that will hopefully have a ripple effect across the nation as well. So, and I appreciate also your message that people need to speak up, know, speak up, you

advocate for their own care, advocate for the care of their children, and connect with their legislators to make sure that they're advocating for the support that they need. So thank you for that message as well. So.

So with the last few minutes we have left, we've just been talking about some heavy subject matter of mental health and some of the challenges that are associated with that and juvenile justice and incarceration. These are kind of heavy topics. So I want to kind of wrap up on something a bit hopeful. And I talk about hope a lot on the show here, not from the pink cloud.

Michelle Harper
you

Steven 
Fluffy kind of sense because that's not what hope is hope isn't you know for those who do research and study hope It's not an emotion actually hope hope is is really more of a tool hope can be defined as when you have a vision for a better future and When you see that there's a plan of action or steps that can be taken To walk towards that that better future and that you have a sense of agency that you feel you can maybe do something about it Maybe not

Get it done yourself. You know, we need help from others and we might fail and stumble along the way and we may not ever even reach the vision we're aiming at. But there's this idea of having a vision, having a sense of action and a sense of agency. So it's not a fluffy feeling. It's it's it's kind of how we get into action is by having hope. So I'm going ask you three questions about hope. I would ask that you just kind of give your first.

Michelle Harper 
Yeah.

Okay.

Steven (57:18)
answer. You don't have to think about it too hard. Let's just kind of see what some of your thoughts about hope are. So Michelle, the first question about hope is, what is your vision for a better future? And that can be for you personally or professionally or for the world. It's just what's your vision for a better future?

Michelle Harper 
that is a good question. My immediate reaction is I just want children and youth to get access to what they need. And I I focus so much on mental health care, but acknowledge that, I mean, food is important, housing, all the different things so that they can take care of their mental wellness. just, that would be my dream.

Steven 
Yeah.

Perfect. So tell me a little bit more about why that's your dream. Why is that important?

Michelle Harper 
Gosh, you know, I have been so fortunate and I just want other people to have the support that they need to be successful. And I want every kid to have what my kid has. You know, like I was supported and was able to get to this point in life and I just want to support others and pay it forward.

Steven 
Yeah, that's beautiful. Love that. So the last question. Imagine now we are living in a world today in which your vision is a reality, that children are getting the support that they need, whether that's housing or good food, nutrition, support of families, communities, mental health, physical health. They're getting what they need. That's the world we're living in right now. How does that make you feel?

Michelle Harper 
Amazing.

Steven 
Love it. Perfect. Well, Michelle, thank you so much for your time. It's so good to catch up with you. I can't believe it's been so long. I know we're kind of talking offline about a reunion, hopefully later this year, next year. Looking forward to hoping that that comes to fruition and we can all get together in person and chat again. But I'm so grateful that you agreed to come on the show and catch up with me and share.

your life's journey and your professional work, is so important. So I wish you all the best and keep making the world a better place, please. You're doing amazing stuff and we need more people like you doing that. So please keep it up.

Michelle Harper 
Well, thank you. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for listening to my story and thanks for asking about all of the work that I'm doing and it'll help make a difference. So thank you.

Steven 
Perfect. Well, thank you, Michelle. And we'll see you later.

Michelle Harper 
All right.

Steven 
What an insightful conversation with Michelle Harper. Throughout this episode, we explored the complexities of mental health policy, the importance of early intervention for children, and the need for cross-sector collaboration to create sustainable mental health solutions. Michelle also highlighted how community advocacy plays a crucial role in ensuring access to mental health care, especially as federal funding decisions continue to impact essential programs.

One of the most important takeaways from our conversation is that mental health is treatable. But for people to get the care they need, we have to speak up. Advocacy isn't just about policy experts working behind the scenes. It's about all of us using our voices. Michelle made a powerful point about communicating with legislators, letting them know what's working, what's not, and what resources our communities need. Right now,

having conversations with your legislators is more critical than ever. If we don't make our priorities known, decisions will be made without our input. I want to thank Michelle for sharing her journey and for her tireless efforts to improve mental health care. Her dedication to creating meaningful, lasting change is truly inspiring. And I'm grateful she took the time to join me on Stories Sustain Us. For you, my audience,

I hope Michelle's story has motivated you to take action in your own community. That might mean reaching out to your local representatives to advocate for mental health funding, supporting organizations that provide mental health services, or simply starting a conversation with your friends and family about the importance of mental well-being. Every effort, big or small, contributes to a better future. And if you or a family member needs mental health support, please, please go ask for help.

I know from personal experience that one of the most difficult things to do is admitting you don't know what to do and that you need help with a mental health concern. But help is available so you don't have to face mental health challenges alone. If you don't know where to start, in most US states you can call 2-1-1 for health and social service assistance information and referrals. And you can also call 988 to connect with a mental health professional.

Particularly if this is for a suicidal crisis or mental health related distress. Now if you enjoyed this episode, please like it, leave me a comment, and share it with your friends and family. Your support helps bring these important conversations to more people who need to hear them. I also invite you back for the next episode, releasing on March 11th. My guest will share how their organization is helping TV and film creators craft wildly entertaining stories that reflect

the reality of our world, a world that's in climate crisis. You won't want to miss it, so you can catch the next episode of Stories Sustain Us on March 11th at storiessustainus.com, wherever you listen to podcasts, and on YouTube. Thank you for being here today, and please keep doing your part to make the world a better place. Until next time, I'm Steven Schauer. Please take care of yourself and each other. Take care.