Stories Sustain Us #43 – Designing a Better World With Sustainable Cities & Community Empowerment

Summary
Dr. Azza Kamal shares her journey from growing up in Cairo, Egypt, to becoming a prominent architect and urban planner. She discusses her early influences, including her education and family background, and highlights her work on the El Gouna master plan development in Egypt, which received recognition from the UN. Dr. Kamal explains the importance of LEED certification in sustainable architecture and emphasizes the need for community engagement in design processes. Her experiences reflect a commitment to social equity and thoughtful design that meets the needs of diverse communities. Dr. Kamal shares her journey from academia to impactful community projects, focusing on affordable housing, environmental design, and urban planning. She discusses her work in San Antonio, including water quality initiatives and the recognition of the San Antonio Missions as a World Heritage Site. Dr. Kamal also reflects on her recent Fulbright experience in Berlin, where she taught urban design and sustainable development. The conversation concludes with a call to action for individuals to step outside their comfort zones to contribute to sustainability and a hopeful vision for the future.

About the Guest
Dr. Azza Kamal is an Associate Teaching Professor at the University of Colorado Boulder. She teaches in the Environmental Design Program and specializes in sustainable planning, affordable housing policy, and community resilience. In her research, she applies geospatial modeling to inform policy gaps and future risk and development in heritage sites. She brings over 25 years of experience in architecture and urban planning and has taught in Florida, Maryland, Texas, Germany, and Egypt.

Show Notes
Academic Profile: https://azzakamal.wixsite.com/azzakamal

Takeaways
•Dr. Azza Kamal grew up in Cairo, Egypt, which influenced her career in architecture.
•Azza worked on El Gouna, a significant master plan development in Egypt, recognized by the UN.
•She has experience designing healthcare facilities, particularly for psychiatric patients.
•Azza's work in colonias in Texas highlights the need for community engagement in urban planning.
•She advocates for the integration of end-users in the design process to create effective solutions.
•Azza transitioned to focus on affordable housing after her PhD work, reflecting her commitment to underserved communities and social equity.
•Azza participated in various projects addressing water quality and environmental advocacy.
•The World Heritage recognition of the San Antonio Missions was a significant achievement.
•Her Fulbright experience in Berlin involved teaching urban design with international students.
•Sustainability requires individuals to step outside their comfort zones.
•Collective action is essential for addressing climate change and environmental issues.
•Azza emphasizes the importance of education in shaping future leaders.
•Hope for a better future lies in inspiring the next generatio

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Transcript

Steven 
What happens when luxury design meets social equity? And how can community-led planning transform overlooked neighborhoods into resilient, thriving places? Today's guest believes the answer begins with listening, really listening to the people who live, work, and dream in the spaces we build. Hey everybody, I'm Steven Schauer, and this is Stories Sustain Us, where we bring you personal stories that reveal the

very heart of sustainability and inspire us all to take action. In today's episode, we journey from the historic streets of Cairo to underserved neighborhoods in Texas with architect, planner, and educator, Dr. Azza Kamal. From contributing to award-winning developments like Alguna on Egypt's Red Sea coast to designing mental health facilities and affordable housing in the U.S.

Dr. Kamal's career is a powerful reflection of how architecture and urban planning can and must serve the greater good. We'll explore why LEED certification is more than a status symbol, how qualitative research is essential in inclusive design, and how Dr. Kamal's work with colonias in Texas helped shine a light on communities often left out of the planning process. You'll also hear about her Fulbright experience in Berlin,

her commitment to teaching the next generation of urban leaders, and why she believes hope for a sustainable future lies in stepping out of our comfort zones together. Dr. Azza Kamal is an associate teaching professor at the University of Colorado Boulder, specializing in sustainable planning, affordable housing policy, and community resilience. She brings over 25 years of experience in architecture and urban planning across Egypt, Germany, and the United States.

Her research leverages geospatial modeling to close policy gaps, and she's been instrumental in projects from San Antonio's World Heritage Site documentation to climate adaptation tools for Berlin churches. She's a respected educator, a passionate community advocate, and a leading voice for heritage preservation, urban equity, and environmental justice. This conversation will challenge you to think differently about the built environment.

and inspire you to see design as a tool for change. So let's get started right here in Stories Sustain Us where we are inspiring action through the power of storytelling.

Steven 
Good morning, Dr. Kamal. How are doing? Azza, good to finally get you on camera and get you on the recording studio here. I'm so eager to speak with you. I appreciate you taking time to join me on Stories Sustain Us.

Azza Kamal 
Likewise, pleasure to be with you, Steven. Good morning.

Steven 
So

yeah, so I kind of start every show. ⁓ People know by now I'm in Seattle, but where are you coming from? Where are you sitting at today?

Azza Kamal 
I'm in between Denver and Boulder, so in a city called Broomfield, a closet to Boulder, but it's part of the Denver metraire.

Steven 
Yeah, that's a area. I like that, that Rocky Mountain area. well, as I also want to take a brief moment to thank our mutual friend, Karen Bishop, for, you know, bringing, connecting us. And I'm really eager to hear your story. We were very close to each other for a long period of time in San Antonio. We just never crossed paths. So it's nice to finally get to know you here. So, tell me a bit about your story before we get into some of the,

Azza Kamal 
true.

Steven 
long list of professional accomplishments and projects that I want to dive into. Tell me a little bit about your background. Where did you grow up and what was life like for you as a kid growing up?

Azza Kamal 
Well, thank you very much for having me and having the opportunity to share a little bit about my childhood. well, thanks to Karen too, because Karen is a great friend and know her for more than 10 years since my time in San Antonio. I grew up in Cairo and Cairo in Egypt, and I grew up in downtown Cairo in Egypt, like the middle of the hustle of all traffic, population growth and all active life. And I went to...

A typical public schools is a women's school. It's actually the oldest female high school and it was at the forefront of protesting in early 20th century. So female have like a role in the civic community and civic protesting and was a great school. Love my teachers and

Steven 
Yeah.

Azza Kamal
has green buildings too. think ⁓ when you try to connect the dots later on, you find out like the historic buildings and the structure and design of the school may have inspired me to go and pursue the architecture among too many other reasons. But it was like really impactful because I still recollect about the buildings ⁓ where ⁓ I used to attend for three years. High schools in Egypt did three years, not like four years like in the US.

Steven 
Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

Azza Kamal 
It was a great, great experience. ⁓ My neighborhood was like of like middle income mixed-use. Most of the communities and neighborhoods are typically by default mixed-use. The transformation to suburban single-family started late, late, late in the 21st century. But typical neighborhoods are mixed income, mixed-use.

Steven 
Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
Close to transportation, I started driving at the age of 19, but I always stopped transportation. went to, my school was like a walking distance, like 15, 17 minutes walk from my home. And ⁓ my college was also Cairo University, where I attended engineering school, architecture department and engineer school.

was like 30 minutes walk from my home as well so relatively you could you could walk too as well.

Steven 
Yeah,

yeah. And see the seeds of architecture and urban planning taking root in your early life with, even with the terminology years ago, know, mixed use and mixed income, all these, you know, urban planning type of terms. So yeah, that was, I could definitely see that that was your childhood growing up. Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
Yeah, but also.

Yeah, the irony is like the Cairo University is like located in a Giza city. The Giza city is part of the Cairo metropolitan area. So it's called Cairo University, but it's located in a different city that's only connected across the river. So they are basically just like one metro area, but still hold the name ⁓ of Cairo, not the Giza. It's very interesting. Yeah, probably. Yeah.

Steven 
Yeah.

Yeah, better marketing.

Um, well, so I know, I know going to do this episode just slightly slightly differently than, maybe some of the others where I dive deeper into past, cause you have such an incredible work history and do do we want to, you know, since we're already in your story in the Cairo area, do we, do we want to talk, jump into some of the work that you've done in, in Cairo? And, and, um, there's a master plan community that, that I know that

You worked on that one significant recognition from the United Nations. Can you tell us a little bit about your early career and some of the work that you were doing that really started you on this incredible path that you've been on where you've touched all of these different types of fascinating projects that we'll spend some time chatting about? Is that a good time to transition to Cairo and the work that you're doing there or is there anything else that we want to dive into with your childhood? I want to make sure we don't miss anything important.

Azza Kamal 
episode.

I

it's just like ⁓ I choose architecture because my uncle, one of my favorite uncles was an architect. And at the age of ⁓ eight, nine, I decided to become an architect. And that was it. as I grew up, his name was Yusri. He passed away three years ago, two years ago. ⁓ yeah, yeah.

Steven 
That's important.

Yeah, what's his name?

Hmm. I'm sorry. Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
⁓ So he was an architect and planner too, which is what I do, crossing the bridges between the disciplines. But I also, as I studied in high school, studied German as a third language or a second language. studied Arabic and English was the first foreign language and then a second foreign language by default in public schools. my...

study was in German. So, and I also was debating between studying German for college or going for my, my whole term dream. And I decided to challenge the engineers and the family and just to pursue engineer school. but I was very fortunate when I graduated from architecture department with two great opportunities to work. And ⁓ one of

Steven 
Yeah.

Ha

Azza Kamal 
great ones was to work with my former professor who graduated with a health design focused career from University of Toronto and she was my professor in Cairo University and worked with her for close to four years and she was like really a role model for what women leadership and in the industry specifically at the time was like. Then I switched to another firm that worked with development across the country

and abroad also. this is where I got a chance to work in Ilgona, a development or master plan development. It's a town that's mixed dues and even mixed income and has some residences and secondary dwelling or second homes and first homes, also people who live there permanently, but also have resorts and it has school.

Steven 
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
It has a campus, it shut down recently, but it has a campus from Technical University of Berlin, so I had some connections also there. And I got a chance to visit for the very first time this past December. So I designed this project in collaboration with the developer of Illegona, which is a company also known in the regions called Orascum.

Steven 
connections.

Azza Kamal 
It was like really transformational experience to work with the mega developer. And eventually this is actually a project that has multiple foreign architects also working in. So Michael Graves is like an American known architect. has one of the hotels run by I believe Sheraton is there. So I got a chance to visit his work also this past December and visit my work as well. So it was a really great time, like, know, you're.

Steven
Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
something with the masterpieces of other

architects and some Italian architects also have their ⁓ projects over there. So it's a mega multi-development project and still going on. So there are some development happening there too.

Steven 
And this is, if I ⁓ remember reading a little bit about it before this interview, it's on the coast of the Red Sea. Is that correct? Did I get that right? Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
Yeah,

yes, it's northern, it's like an hour drive, than an hour drive from the city of Uruguay on the Red Sea. ⁓ And it's very close to airport there, so people even sometimes they come for just like a vacation time. So it's known to be a vacation, but there are people actually who live there. ⁓ So it's a big employment center as well. So I would see it as a development.

that ⁓ earned the reputation over the time because it has also recognition for its green ⁓ kind of management and this is what the recent, it's not too recent, 2014 kind of recognition from the UN environmental program. So my project was part of the overall kind of recognition for the whole community.

Steven 
Yeah, and that was,

I want to make sure we give full credit. That was the environmental program. That was the global human settlements program that, yeah, can you tell a little bit about, that sounds intriguing. What was that award really looking for and recognition? How was it signaling out this master plan development for this recognition as what a global human settlement should be?

I think what the UN was pointing out that this was done so well, should recognize it as this is what we should be doing as humans.

Azza Kamal 
Yeah, so I'm not into the details of the certification, but because it's a management, it's not in the design field like my area in the lead kind of certification. But it looks at how resources are being managed across the community. And recycling is a major part and eco-friendly products and water ⁓ kind of conservation. it's much more like a broader

Steven 
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
certification for the management of specific business.

Steven 
Okay,

touching on different aspects of sustainability, making sure that future generations can have something to look forward to as well. Absolutely. Perfect. In your timeframe, so the award was ⁓ presented by the UN in 2014. What was your window of time working on that project and your timeline?

Azza Kamal 
Absolutely. We're saving the Earth.

That's right.

I worked only in the 13th century, so the project again is still also evolving. when I visited, are still ⁓ residences being built in our different phases because that's huge land. ⁓ So it's owned by and run by Orescom and the owner of Orescom. It's a big family that have multiple development in the region, not only, ⁓ I believe, also in Europe. So they have multiple investments in the region.

So the recognition happened for that phase up until the 2014. I don't ⁓ know if they are pursuing ⁓ a different certification moving forward, ⁓ but there's something actually I'm looking up to also like how to certify because now even post 2014, there are much more site certification and community certification that could be part of LEAD. So that was something I'm.

Steven 
Sure.

Azza Kamal 
I was very interested in to connect with the management and to start seeing how that could possibly happen.

Steven 
Yeah. And I've heard you mention a few times now, and just for the audience members who may not be fully up to speed, you've mentioned lead on a few different parts of ⁓ your story. Can you ⁓ explain what that is for the audience? so even if they might've heard that term before and maybe not fully understand the depth of it, because again, in the realm of sustainability and trying to do things in a...

In a better way, that's one of the important aspects of that. So can you explain what that is and how it impacts ⁓ what you do ⁓ for the different projects that you work on around the world?

Azza Kamal 
Sure, LEAD is the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design. So a people who work in sustainability are very familiar. It's the popular one, but it's not the only one. Popular because it's been there longer. It's been implemented in different parts of the world, ⁓ in and outside the North American system. And it gives ⁓ certification to buildings, communities, neighborhoods, and now cities. ⁓

building in different phases, whether existing or new construction, ⁓ neighborhood as a project plan or existing projects ⁓ or completed design projects. And it also gives accreditation to professionals. So I'm on that side also of being accredited in the category for neighborhood development, which is the urban skill I teach and conduct my research.

So I also teach LEAD for my students and different programs when I was in Florida and now in Colorado as well. So it's very popular and I encourage them to pursue the accreditation. First step is to be a green associate. So I help them take the exam as well. So there are actually different communities that already exist before LEAD that

They did kind of like some of the communities I invested in in Germany as part of my work. They run the certification kind of credit score and they got like very high credit too. So we know that there are already communities that designed with sustainability and resiliency in mind that were not necessarily and today they're not necessarily lead certified, but they perform very, very high.

Steven 
Sure.

Azza Kamal 
So it is a tool to help communities to meet up kind of conscious design that's eco-friendly, that's not harmful, that's also socially respectful to the residents.

Steven 
Yeah. And could you give an example of what that, you know, going from that definition of what it is, could you give like a concrete example for someone of, you know, if you do this in a building or if you do this in a neighborhood, that will get you scoring you points towards getting your lead recognition. Is there something that you can help people make that connection between the concept of designing sustainably and with resilience in mind versus what that

means on the ground in an actual project.

Azza Kamal 
Yeah, sure. So there are some credit goes for water conservation and water fixtures that we use to save water and not everything that fits all regions because every region performed differently based on the climate zone. Of course, renewable energy is a must, but also you cannot capture ⁓ solar in areas that we got like most of the day, like most of the

the time is in the ⁓ overcast time. So it depends. there are areas where we cannot capture water. In California, for example, we have a lot of restrictions here in Colorado because we are in a dry climate. So it depends on what the region ⁓ kind of dictates and the policy dictates. ⁓ There are a lot of precautions and requirements during construction itself.

we can protect the sites so it doesn't harm the nearby areas. ⁓ Equipments need to be covered and so forth. are ⁓ design ⁓ features that we need and orientation features that we need to do. There's a lot of facade related elements, fenestration or glazing ⁓ elements. And industry has picked up very quickly that even the new

release of the LEED certification that was just released on Monday of this week, ⁓ believe on 25th of April. That was something that came up to address decarbonization and how to eliminate, to focus on resiliency too. So it's not just sustainability. So how to respond to shocks and stresses.

Steven 
Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
⁓ that happened to our cities and communities.

Steven 
Yeah, perfect. Thank you for helping describe that for folks who may not be fully up to speed on some of these terms and acronyms. So I appreciate that. ⁓ So back to your journey and your career path. We left off and you were working in Cairo on this incredible master plan development. ⁓ I know there's times that I want to get to San Antonio. I know there's work that you've done in Germany. Where do we go next from your time in Cairo?

Azza Kamal 
⁓ In Cairo, did work, ⁓ my first job was to work on health care facilities, actually. ⁓ I was like a very wonderful four years. And ⁓ I remember one of the great experiences was to help ⁓ designing and, also retrofitting old hospitals. And ⁓ my task

Steven 
Okay.

Azza Kamal 
ranged from just helping like the team, because I was just like fresh graduate to the beginning. And then you would be very surprised. in two years, I was able to do like a master plan in design of and learn a lot about designing for psychiatric illness. And at the time that was in mid 1990s where there was no

Google search, where you know what the needs are.

Steven 
Yeah, yeah, I remember those days.

Azza Kamal 
And we would get like ⁓ books and publications like periodicals about psychiatric ⁓ illness. And we listened to different interviews for locally ⁓ kind of experts, locally kind of like run facilities and what goes wrong. There was a lot that went wrong in existing facilities and there was not that many.

So we listened to interviews and thanks to again, ⁓ the credit goes to my professor who was like really the expert in healthcare facilities. She put us also in touch with local practitioners that pioneers in the field, like people who you barely like you need to pay them to sit an interview with. And we managed to have them in the office and talk to them and talk notes. It helped a lot and it was like,

the real experience on how to do a design program and everyone who's in the architecture field knows like what to do, how to do a design program is really difficult and to how to make it efficient, especially for special needs patients. And it was really difficult learning how to, that you have to have cluster ⁓ of the bid words based on the condition and not to put the different ages in the same cluster and in...

Steven 
Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
in our approach also not to the same gender in the same cluster. So we have to separate and how to also design for people who may have an extreme kind of condition based on circumstance that you have to have a place to isolate them so they can have the proper treatment. Also learning what kind of materials.

Steven 
Sure, sure.

Azza Kamal 
Glass doors with no-no, like circular corners or curvy corners are no, lot of factors in the design that could trigger their anxiety and confusion was something that we have to pay attention to quite well. So it was like, that was like really a good learning experience about how to design for special needs.

Steven 
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I appreciate that getting that insight and what I'm hearing and please correct me if I'm restating this improperly, but in the work that you're doing as far as designing ⁓ before you get to the actual, let's actually create the structure, design or whatnot, you're doing a whole lot of qualitative work. You're doing interviews, you're talking to people, you're...

you know, getting, you know, the, the interested parties and those who will be impacted and affected by the design, you're getting input from them in this really qualitative way before you get into the quantitative work of numbers and figures on, uh, you know, feet and length and how you're going to create everything. So it's really a mixture of, of qualitative research and quantitative expertise, all kind of blending together to create a design that meets the needs of.

whoever the client is. And in this case was ⁓ special needs folks that have psychiatric diagnoses. am I capturing that story correctly?

Azza Kamal 
Yeah, and ⁓ I would say like just dealing with every user of a building or a community as a client, respectfully, whether they are special needs. And later on, we did the same when I designed with my students, like expansion for transitional homeless facility in Baltimore. It was the same thing. We worked closely with the 32.

individuals in a transitional facility and we went to them every week. designed, we had workshops with them, we asked them, we designed how their condition from just...

coming out of the street to become fully assimilated and integrated into a family life, which is a cycle that could take years actually in those transition facilities. So that kind of like not the cookie cutter kind of approach of like, let's design a shelter or something above their head that we'll assume would work. It never works. And this is why we see a lot of like urban pollution or urban plight.

Steven 
Sure.

Right.

Azza Kamal 
that happened when people get the housing and then they started to change how things are, the close areas or the expand areas and they started to have their own persona into the design and the space reconfiguration. This is because they've never been integrated into the process from the beginning.

Steven 
Yeah, I love that example and the significance of that and the importance of inviting everyone into the process, giving them not just a seat at the table to hear what's going on, but a voice in the design process so that this is really integrated and it meets the needs. It's a little bit more intensive on the front end. takes a little bit more time, but the end product is...

such a better product when you do it that way. I appreciate you explaining that. I think there are different ways of designing and building. Some of it is the expert just knows best and goes and does it. And ⁓ then there are the ways in which you described in which the expert does know, but may not know best. So that's why you bring in the voices of others who are particularly the end users so that they ⁓ have a say in how it's going to.

evolve and grow and eventually be designed and implemented. So brilliant. I love that. love that. So moving on then in your career, you moved on ⁓ from working in hospital settings and working in designing some of the psychiatric ⁓ facilities that you talked about.

Where did you move on to next then ⁓ at that point? it to, you mention Germany? And I know San Antonio is part of your story. Where do you go from when you leave Cairo for the first time, where do you end up next?

Azza Kamal 
Well, I left Cairo after almost like nine years into practice and I was just finishing my PhD. I just defended and then flew to college station of just a fraction of my neighborhood in size in Texas. So it's a

Steven 
In Texas. Yeah. So people may not

understand College Station is kind of out in the middle of ⁓ East Nowhere, Texas from Cairo. Very, very giant to. Yeah, that's a big change. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of close to Houston. Yeah. Yeah. You got the big city, Houston, nearby.

Azza Kamal 
yeah very handsome yeah so it's yeah it was closer to his it's a huge change and ⁓ it took me a while and yeah so i remember yeah

Steven
Wow, that's a big jump.

Azza Kamal 
so i said true yeah but also i didn't say that in my phd i took a totally different approach as i was

Steven 
Yeah, yeah.

Azza Kamal 
started to teach in a city outside Cairo. So I took the train and then I started seeing communities and urban plight and the quasi urban communities. And that was my, topic of my research, what it takes to have a framework to invest in those communities and then to have a framework for their participation and what it takes to uplift socioeconomic and built form, ⁓ built environment conditions.

Steven 
Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
And

then when I came to Calgis station, I started to echo my approach and looked at the colonists in Texas, and colonists particularly around Laredo and with County Laredo and area. some of them were, yeah, right.

Steven 
Yeah. And I was just going to say, for those who

may not be familiar with that term, a colonia in Texas, it's often a border community. It's not necessarily required to be a border community, but it's often a border community. May not have, you know, wastewater treatment or, you know, water. It's very ⁓ lower on the socioeconomics. So they... ⁓

You know, really don't have some of the resources that you may find in many other places, know, clean tap water to drink or, you know, wastewater functioning very well, if at all. So these are very poor areas. And again, often, like you said, Laredo near near the US Mexico border. So just want to make sure people understood what, where you were working in is a very kind of a really poor, underserved community.

Azza Kamal 
True, and always miss, there was a misperception about them, the demographics were, at the time I was doing my research, I studied a master, like a second master at...

Texas A University in College Station, but all my work was remotely in the Colonial. I, community is great. They were very helpful, very supportive, wonderful people and always being looked at as the immigrants, but actually 97 % at the time were actually US citizens or a green card.

Steven 
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
holders. ⁓

Steven 
Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
All research shown that, but it was early in the process that and the communities by the census or by the official ⁓ kind of classification as a community, they are unincorporated areas. So meaning that they are not part of a city, ⁓ territorial jurisdiction, meaning that they're not covered by services or any kind of emergency response system.

911, all these kind of like, you know, the luxury services we enjoy in cities, ⁓ we take for granted. Yeah, but I found out part of what they are ⁓ doing in the process of transformation and advocacy that happened from many of them.

Steven 
Yeah, we take for granted, right?

Azza Kamal 
many residents across the border. the border, these communities not only in Texas, they are along with the entire border ⁓ from the East Coast to California. But they are more concentrated in Texas as probably some people know. ⁓ And I work closely with the community because I had to do surveys and I ⁓ I took an anthropological ethnographic approach that I, ⁓

you know, seek the help from ⁓ the local experts, the informants, and they were ⁓ like my connection to the community. Got a ton of volunteers from people there to help disseminate the surveys as well. So that was like really the transformation also to move in from this career of designing ⁓

communities like Algona, like people visit as resort also, ⁓ or special needs ⁓ health facilities to the looking at more of the urban scale, both in my PhD and in my master's in the Colonies at Texas A And this is where I started also teaching more of urban planning ⁓ and ⁓ urban design and communities and working with communities.

Steven 
Yeah.

Nice. Well, it's important work that I'm sure you helped move colonias along back then, and there's still work to be done in those areas undoubtedly. ⁓ But yeah, I can see that shift going from a master planned resort-like community on the Red Sea to ⁓ working on the US-Mexico border in a colonia. That, is also a big shift in career path and the type of work that would be done.

in those communities. So that's a big, big move for you. So go ahead.

Azza Kamal 
And it was, I would say, big shift, but also was more fulfilling. And it took me to move more to build on my PhD work and to focus more on affordable housing. And this is why when I finished my master's in Texas A &M, I moved to Baltimore, where I worked in an HBCU campus, Morgan State University for people who don't know what the HBCU campuses they are.

Steven 
⁓ yes.

Azza Kamal 
historical black colleges and universities and they started in 19th century as colleges for black communities to give them access to higher ed, then eventually most of them have been transformed to

four years and PhD also granting universities. So I worked there as a tenure track assistant professor of environmental design and did a great job with the students, majority of whom were actually from inner city Baltimore and worked with fabulous colleagues and we did that project with one of the transitional

homeless facility in Baltimore. Then I moved to Texas. I moved to San Antonio. I got recruited for a position. Yeah, I got recruited for a University of Texas San Antonio, met the department chair and then I moved there for almost seven years and did a great job on campus and with the community too.

Steven 
Yeah. Came back. Yeah.

Yeah. And this is the timeframe then where, where obviously your friendship with Karen Bishop took off. She was a colleague of mine when I was at the San Antonio River Authority. and you did a, ⁓ then want to dive into some of your work there in San Antonio, cause you did a wide array of things, you know, from working on the world heritage site there with San Antonio missions. You did work for, ⁓ the San Antonio River Authority with, with Karen and, and, ⁓

Azza Kamal
Yeah

Steven 
water quality issues and low impact development and placemaking. You did some work with housing, affordable housing issues. And so you really kind of were touching on a lot of different aspects of your profession there for that seven year period in San Antonio. Can you tell us a little, you know, some of the highlights of those different areas? Cause they're all fascinating to me. And I know

I've seen the product of your work. I just didn't know you were working on it on some of the geospatial work that you were doing as well for the river authority. I was very involved in that. just didn't know you were on the outside consultant doing some of that work for us. So tell us about some of the fascinating things you did in San Antonio, because it really ⁓ shows your breadth and width of the different things that you work on.

Azza Kamal 
Yeah, I feel bad that we didn't cross paths in San Antonio. But who knows what's gonna happen to it. Yeah, I know. ⁓ So I did, I sat in a lot of advisory boards. I remember one of them was for access to parks and it was ⁓ led by one of the candidate for city. ⁓

Steven 
Just missed each other, just missed it, yeah.

Azza Kamal 
either for a mayor or I don't remember, but there was some candidate going for a local office and part of his campaign was to give the youth access to open spaces and green spaces and how we work out the hurdles. San Antonio was ranked 56 or 53 among the cities with having access to public parks. There's Trust for Public Land is an organization that ranks cities

based on their public access to open space and green space particularly. And I got to know a friend who eventually introduced me ⁓ an Alisa piece. She actually, the friend who connected me, ⁓ yeah, he connected me. She's amazing. Yes, she connected me with Karen. You should, she's amazing. She is a big, big advocate for environmental quality and water quality. Yeah, so we get to know each other well.

Steven 
and Lisa. Yeah, she's great. yeah, she is. I should have her on the show.

Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
We are still friends to date. We meet sometimes on Zoom just to catch up. And then she connected me to Karen and Steven Graham and everyone and Sarah. And we got to chat and they wanted to do a work with ⁓ also with the state about the groundwater and the surface water using ⁓

Steven 
Yeah.

⁓ Steve Graham. Yep.

Azza Kamal
the low impact development, is an approach to use ⁓ nature and plant and different techniques to design sites. So it can enhance the water infiltration to go into the aquifer.

So it could help minimize the energy that we use to clean up the water again when we use it for water. And to divert the water into the aquifer instead of going to the ditches, like the typical sewage system. So there was also the...

Steven 
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
compromises between what the surface water treatment need, like the streams and the San Antonio River versus the groundwater in there, which is going to be the aquifer and the recharge area, the Edward Aquifer particularly, and then how we can clean up the water. So some debates about do we need to put liners or we need to get rid of liners and the approach that

Sarah was sent to the University wanted is like we need no liners. I have to work on the compromise of multiple iteration of site treatments and design of the site and To make sure that water will be cleaned up ⁓ for both purposes

Steven
Right.

And this is water being directed into a stormwater facility, you know, as opposed to being so that it can be filtered naturally and eventually end up in the aquifer as opposed to water being directed to ⁓ a creek or waterway where it will be kind of just flushed out of the community towards the Gulf Coast. wanted to capture that water, that rainfall, particularly over the Edwards recharge zone.

so that it can filter back into the aquifer, because that's also a main source of drinking water for people in the area. is that a way to kind of restate what you were talking about as far as liners or not liners? It's in basins, basically, where we're directing water to filter back into the recharge zone. Is that correct?

Azza Kamal 
Yeah, and the reason for that was to retain the water on site and to have the site redesigned in a way that retained the water but keep it with a slow kind of infiltration that usually take up to 48 hours through different ⁓ planting and different layer soil layers ⁓ to make sure that it takes its time to be infiltrated properly. And then to do the design,

Steven 
Right.

Azza Kamal 
of those low impact development practices that fits the topography and the location and how we want the place making of the site to be attractive. ⁓ And I remember when we started getting the water inspection data from SOS, the water facility, there was, ⁓ and then from also the historically the data that were collected from.

Greater Edward Aquifer Alliance and Sanitary River Authority, find like there's a big violations of water quality in terms of the sites. So there's a lot of these kind of the recharge point that already have contamination around. So our approach was to use the GIS and to create like a geospatial model to prioritize those areas and to look at where the contamination is happening and then to give recommendation if you want to.

put investment in redevelopment on the side. These are the areas that where you start with.

Steven 
Yeah. And these are ⁓ like large parking lot areas or development, know, apartment development or housing developments, commercial developments, all things that would, as you talk about, you know, capturing water on the site, it's, you know, this, development property, what do you do with the rainfall that, falls on that property? How do you keep it there and manage it there in a healthy way, as opposed to allowing it to just run off that site and, and then become a stormwater problem for

somebody else to deal with. that was an important project that you were working on for the San Antonio and Bexar County area, given the significance of the aquifer and for drinking water purposes and endangered species that are there and all the other aspects of aquifer. For those who aren't familiar, that is a big, big deal in San Antonio.

federal lawsuits in the early 90s over the use of the aquifer that are still impacting how people in that area live and behave ⁓ today. that was a big project that you were a part of. So I don't know how we didn't meet because I was a part of that on the ⁓ communication side with other elected officials and folks. So I'm very familiar with your work. I just didn't know you were doing it. So.

Azza Kamal 
Thanks.

Yeah, that's how I know. I know.

And

as far as I know, today they have not like enforced like development kind of ratio to make sure that there is enough conservation of the land and areas specifically in the recharge zone. And there's a lot of advocacy happening around this area to make sure there's much more respect for, ⁓ you know, protection of the recharge zone. Very, very sensitive area and we just gonna spend ton of

Steven 
Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
energy to clean up the water again.

Steven 
Yeah, that's where

Annalisa comes in and all of her advocacy work and all the great efforts she's been putting in for decades to fight those fights, to make sure that development happens, not to stop development, but to develop in a smarter way, in a better way. So ⁓ you are also working in San Antonio, I believe, on another project that ⁓ I had my hands on also and didn't know you had your hands on, but it was the San Antonio missions.

World Heritage Site, which is also just another fascinating connection that you and I have. We just never crossed paths. Can you tell us what you were doing with regards to that project as well? Because that is also another big deal for the San Antonio community, that World Heritage recognition for four Spanish missions, well, five when you include Wilson County as well.

Azza Kamal 
True, and this one was, I didn't know like you were involved in any of this project, by the way, so I'm curious to hear your story about it too. ⁓ Yeah, this was one of the best collaboration I've ever had. was three of us, colleagues in the College of Architecture, and each one of us come from literally different world academically, but also demographically.

Steven 
Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
So, and we put together a proposal that we were told it's usually these type of top, it was like university competitive proposal that usually goes to science or engineering. And we neither was so for anyone outside the US architecture is not part of engineering in ⁓ most of the US schools unless it is architectural engineering department and we were not. So,

Steven 
Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
We had a historian and we had conservation and a person, she's from Italy and the history person, she's born and raised in US, I believe in Texas. And we come in from all this different background with a geospatial kind of like the STEM tools. We put together this proposal and we wanted to put the World Heritage Site, the five missions, including the very ⁓ popular animal.

mission into the digital world. And we wanted to document the stories about each mission and the land developed around them to feed the communities of each mission. This work, this which is the land, we wanted to digitize those and to show the kind of a spatial temporal or the evolvement over time for these lands and how the mission from Mexico

and the pathway to each mission happened. And also the irrigation system, the ESEC, yes, and most of them are buried. Yeah, most of them are buried. And there's no recognition. They are buried, but they still exist. So we found that a lot of them actually under existing neighborhoods, residential neighborhoods. we got the archives and one of ⁓

Steven 
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Azza Kamal 
the historians, she traveled to Spain and Sevilla. She got a lot of archival data from Sevilla as part of this grant. But it was a celebration. Like it's three women getting a grant that we were told that none in architecture will get it. And it usually goes to science and engineering. I was like, ⁓ hey, we get it. It's just easy. But yeah, but it was a big deal. Like it was, we were so happy and proud to get it.

Steven 
You

Azza Kamal 
And then we had also students working with us. So it was like a very good team. And we presented our work in a computer management conference in MIT. And we published a couple of papers out of it. ⁓ But the thing is that we now have like a digital format, a map in a digital format for where are the areas that need to be protected.

and the zones around the mission that need to be protected, where the asequists really are based on the archival data, and then when they were kind of established because we tracked them from maps go back to 1733. Yeah, so it's really interesting.

Steven 
Yeah.

Yeah, that's fascinating. That's such an important ⁓ work that you were doing for protection. Was that done ⁓ as part of the application process for the World Heritage Recognition or was that done after the recognition was already ⁓ awarded by the UN?

Azza Kamal 
⁓ We've done it just before the recognition, but the recognition happened by the time we were publishing the paper. I remember we were just, me and my students, were presenting at the MIT conference and that recognition happened like a month before. So we were able to take like a screen capture of the news and like, ⁓ this is what the value of this type of work means because it's going to recognize

Steven
Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
the word heritage sites. Yeah. Yeah.

Steven 
Yeah, so being done in tandem.

that was, and just real briefly, my connection to all of that was through the restoration project of the mission reach and how we were beginning in 2011 when Secretary Salazar was in San Antonio and kind of announced his interest in supporting San Antonio's desire to seek World Heritage recognition for the missions.

he was there because of the restoration project. He was there to celebrate ⁓ opening of the first phase of that project. And so I worked behind the scenes, ⁓ you know, helping to make sure that as that package was being put together, leading to the 2015 recognition that, you know, we were connecting the ecosystem restoration along the river to the,

archaeological, historical, and cultural connections of the missions because they were put there because of the river. so I had a little bit of a role to play behind the scenes in making that connection between the river and the missions and ⁓ funded some of the photography work and some of the promotional work that helped ⁓ along the way. a small part to play, but it was an exciting project to be a part of.

Azza Kamal 
No, but thank you.

yeah. Yeah, thank you. This is like a lot of effort was there to help put all this application together. This was like a big deal. Yeah. Long-waited. Yeah.

Steven 
Yeah, ⁓ whole lot of people doing, yeah,

yeah. So fantastic. Well, they've got a good connection to Germany with that story because the recognition happened in 2015 at a conference meeting in Germany. And let's transition to some of your work ⁓ in Berlin. I'm just kind of keeping an eye on the time as well. I do want to hear about some of your more recent work.

in Berlin and then we'll kind of get to the end here of the interview, but ⁓ tell me a little bit about your work in Germany and in Berlin as well.

Azza Kamal
So I wanted always to practice my very long kind of like ambition of learning German. I learned German in high school, but I wanted to practice more. So I also wanted to apply for a Fulbright and to visit Germany. So I reached out to some connection through the Techno-Universität Berlin in Lugona to connect me with Techno-Universität Berlin in Berlin. So I got in contact with

Steven 
Nice.

Azza Kamal 
Powell and Kristen Wellner, who's the Dean of the College of Engineering and Johanna Siddiqui. She worked with her too. So we put together a proposal for a visit. It's called Fulbright Specialist Award, where we match each other. They put a proposal for what the collaboration is going to look like. And I put my proposal for the Fulbright US.

for what I need to do, what I'm looking up to do. And we put together like a joint course, urban design course, it was like a short term seminar or praxis seminar that we taught in January, 2023. And it ended up being like a record high registration.

Steven 
Nice, congratulations.

Azza Kamal 
And when I got it, yeah, it was like,

I think we got like 28 students. was told like, usually it's half this number comes into the course. the good news, the excellent news was that we got students, I stopped counting. I think we got students from like ⁓ 15 or 16 countries, including some students who were just visiting TOB for just like one semester.

and they heard about the course and then they registered. And they come from like eight major. So not only the College of Engineering where the course was offered, but we got students from other departments from across campus. ⁓ The course was basically about also sustainable real estate, unsustainable businesses making. And we had a case study ⁓ of... ⁓

Steven 
Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
development that's very popular in Milan in Italy, it's called Portanova. And we wanted the students to to re-envision the entire Portanova with sustainable business making in my sustainable real estate. And without any unforeseen consequences of gentrification for the neighborhoods nearby. So it was three of us, Powell, Johanna, and myself in Creston visiting

Steven 
Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
the course. So three of us were kind of like instructing the course, but also we ran several workshops with the students, but also we had different panels from experts in and outside Berlin. People from real estate and people from environmental advocacy and environmental law that looked at real estate from environmental perspective and people outside Berlin who are actually working on

the UN certification and documentation for sustainable real estate. So it was like really intense experience. So we worked with the students day long for that week practice until eight or nine PM. So it was like really heavy, heavy course, but it was a great success. Yeah.

Steven 
Hmm.

Yeah. Nice.

Nice. Nice. So you came full circle with your German. You got it. And what I went to ask you this long ago in your story, what, what, why German? Why Germany? When you were back in high school, what was the attraction?

Azza Kamal 
have no idea to date and all my German friends keep being surprised that I tell them like German is easier than English and I like the German language and they keep saying like, are you sure? said, yeah. I think it's just the, mind from engineering works like in a pragmatic way is like what you read is what you write. And this is what I like about the German. It doesn't have all the tricks and the French or the Spanish.

Steven 
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Nice. Well, Azza, I want to be respectful of your time. Thank you so much for joining me on the show. And really sorry we didn't get a chance to meet in San Antonio, but I'm glad we met now and hopefully someday we can actually meet in person as well. But you just had this incredible career and this wonderful journey, know, sustainable planning and urban ⁓ planning and

all the work that you've done for affordable housing, incredible work and water quality work and protecting ⁓ heritage sites. mean, just really what an amazing career path and undoubtedly more to come. So I look forward to following your career as you continue to do these amazing things. ⁓ Go ahead.

Azza Kamal 
Thank you. just want to say thank you. This is a great opportunity. Like you never think about reflecting about what you do, but this was like a great opportunity to do so.

Steven 
Yeah.

Yeah,

well, I appreciate you coming on. I want to give you an opportunity now to direct the audience into action. know, we've talked about a wide variety of things. ⁓ All have ⁓ a connection to sustainability and resilience, you know, making the world a better place and for future generations to thrive as well as we can thrive in today's environment.

So what do you want people to do? ⁓ What's your call to action? How can they support you in your work or what do want them to do in their own neighborhoods and communities? What should people do after listening to this or watching this episode?

Azza Kamal 
Okay, so that's a big responsibility, but I think it all lies ⁓ in the comfort zone. Everything that's within the comfort zone is usually eventually going to be harmful to others. ⁓ you know, lowering your thermostat to save some energy is outside the comfort zone. Taking the transportation and scheduling your time around the

Steven 
Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
the transit system matters a lot. Rethinking about your next car, is it going to be the luxury car, is it going to be the more efficient car? All of these kind of responsible decisions matters. So we're not going to talk about like the stuff like the recycling or the no plastic bags because I thought those were already we're done with those already. We should be at least. but major, yeah, major decision about.

Steven 
Should be.

Azza Kamal 
the CO2 emission matters and we see every summer, this was the hottest summer, this was the higher, this is the record high. Next year it's the record high, it's the record high. And it doesn't stop, so it will only stop and stop bothering every one of us when we take actions. So just work outside your comfort zone, it's not gonna hurt. You're gonna get used to, yeah.

Steven 
I like that. Yeah,

I like that redefining what comfort is and maybe find a new comfort zone. But I'd like that idea of stretching beyond your comfort zone that has a whole lot of metaphorical connections as well for me. So I appreciate that. the last little bit, then let's transition into the hope for the future. We just talk about hard things sometimes like record breaking heat that repeats summer after summer after summer because of the

climate crisis that we're in right now. These are hard subjects to talk about and, and, ⁓ difficult and can generate anxiety and, and, know, concern in people. So I like to end every episode speaking about hope, ⁓ to give people some energy to go into action. Cause if you're overwhelmed by the fears of the future or, ⁓ you know, your climate anxiety is too much, it's hard to go do something then.

⁓ So we want to be generate that hope so people can get into action and looking at hope more from the perspective of how it's studied, not defined as a fluffy pink cloud of motion, but how is the mindset? Hope is something that we can train and cultivate in ourselves. And it's, ⁓ we have a vision for a better future. We have a plan of action that can help us get to that better future.

and we have a sense of agency that there's something I can do. I might not be able to do it by myself and probably won't be able to do it by myself, but there's some steps that I can take to help get to this better future. So, I want to ask you three questions about your hopes and would ask you not to think too long and hard about your answers. Just kind of go with what your first gut feeling is or what your heart says. So, the first question for you, Azza, is

What's your vision for a better future? And it can be for you personally or professionally or for the world, but what's your vision for a better future?

Azza Kamal 
⁓ Personally and professionally it's the same. I think I just want to continue to do what I do and expand.

inspiring but also keep connecting with students I do have and I'm very thankful and blessed to have that kind of term relationship with former students even from my time in Egypt. So for over now 20

8, 25, 28 years. do have still now, we take different roles. So now they are friends and colleagues and I got a lot of inspiration from them too, but I'm also having very close connection with students who just graduated, send me like pictures. ⁓

Steven 
Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
just even a couple of weeks ago from Florida saying that we are graduating this semester and we're going to see you in a different capacity. So I think the hope is to have them really take up ⁓ the new rules and to help shape the world.

with sustainability and respect to different humans and diversity in mind. So that's really my hope to continue to be there and to continue to see them thrive and spread positive vibes and be connected to others ⁓ the way I hope that my connection with them to last.

Steven 
So the second question then, why is that your hope? Why is that important to you?

Azza Kamal 
I think we're going to be better humans if we just like appreciate others and the environment is like it's one earth, it's one planet, we're all equal on it. ⁓

we don't even have to say that. don't unless it should be by default. So I'm like, you know, why do we have to say what's what should be a priority and like what's something that we should have like as a no brainer. But it is a fact that not everyone think the same. So it's my role. And this is I like my role as as ⁓ educator or as researcher just to keep ⁓ spreading these ideas and continue to

and a group of people based on those principles.

Steven 
Perfect.

So the last question for you then, Azza, imagine the future you described. ⁓ We don't have to say the no-brainer things that people already understand that equity and diversity is important and we're all living and sharing this ⁓ planet in a sustainable ⁓ way. Imagine that future is happening right now. So how does that make you feel that you're living in that future right now?

Azza Kamal 
Well, not to disappoint you, it's very difficult to see this happening very soon just because of what's going on in the world. ⁓ It's just going to be great if it's happening. reality is also part of me. I'm ⁓ realistic person. It's not in the near future. just depends on all of us just pushing the boundaries extremely.

Steven 
Yeah.

Yeah.

Azza Kamal 
⁓ far and extremely high and pushing the ceiling high for everyone else who does not have the chance to have the chance. So, ⁓ just we keep, we need to keep the hope, ⁓ but at the same time I need to balance that with being realistic. That's not going to be the time where I'm living. It might be next generation.

Steven 
air.

Yeah, well, I appreciate that, both the hope for the future and the practical reality of, and I share your perspective. I don't know that I'll be living in that future either, but it's the work that we're doing today that will help that future materialize. So thank you so much for sharing your hopes with me and sharing your career journey and all the amazing work that you've done.

I wish you all the best because we need the world, the world needs you to keep doing the work that you're doing to help make it, get it to a better place.

Azza Kamal 
Thank you so much.

Thank you so much, Steven. That was really great and really appreciate the time and opportunity to share something I did. Hopefully it's going to be valuable to others.

Steven 
I'm sure it will be. So thank you very much and we'll stay in touch. look forward to hopefully meeting in person someday, Azza. All right.

Azza Kamal 
Thank you.

Yeah, one day. Yeah. Take care.

Steven 
Bye bye.

Steven 
What an incredible journey we've just taken with Dr. Azza Kamal, urban planner, architect, educator, and global change maker. In this episode, we explored how Dr. Kamal's upbringing in Cairo shaped her passion for architecture, how her early work on award-winning developments like Alguna laid the foundation for her career, and how she has since devoted her expertise to advocating for affordable housing,

sustainable urban planning and community resilience. We heard how she's championing community engagement in underserved areas like the colonias of Texas, led innovative work on water quality and environmental justice in San Antonio and helped preserve cultural heritage at the San Antonio Missions World Heritage Site. And we learned how she brings all of this global experience and expertise spanning Egypt, Germany and across the US.

into the classroom to empower the next generation of urban leaders. On a personal note, I just want to share how meaningful this conversation was for me. While Dr. Kamal and I didn't know each other back then, we were both working in San Antonio on different aspects of the same big challenges. I saw firsthand the positive impact of her work from stormwater quality to world heritage preservation. I just didn't know who was behind some of that remarkable progress at the time.

It's been an absolute honor to finally connect the dots and to celebrate the dedication and vision that Dr. Kamal brings to every project she touches. Her 25 years of experience in Florida, Maryland, Texas, Germany, and Egypt is more than just impressive to me. It's truly making the world a better place. Dr. Kamal's story is a call to action for all of us, whether it's advocating for affordable housing in your city, volunteering on a local planning board,

Engaging your community in conversations about resilience or simply supporting equitable and sustainable development. There's something each of us can do to shape a more just and livable future for all. If this story, today's episode with Dr. Kamal, if this moved you in any way, I would invite you to support Stories Sustain Us by subscribing, leaving me a review, sharing this episode with a friend or family member.

or simply just following me on social media and clicking like on these posts. Every little bit helps amplify voices and stories that matter. So thank you for your support. And I hope you'll join me again on May 27th for a brand new episode of Stories Sustain Us. I'll be speaking with a visionary German architect currently living in France who co-founded a global nonprofit with his wife, who just happens to be part

of one of the most iconic French families known for ocean exploration and protection. Together they're working to return the world's oceans to abundance. It's a fascinating conversation about marine restoration, global collaboration, and the very real possibility of revitalizing ocean life by 2050. Catch the next episode of Stories Sustain Us on May 27th at StoriesSustainUs.com. ⁓

wherever you listen to podcasts and on YouTube. Thank you so very much for being here with me today. Keep making the world a better place. One story, one action, one community at a time. Until next time, I'm Steven Schauer. Please take care of yourself and each other. Take care.