Stories Sustain Us #46 – Water is Life: Wetland Wins and the Power of Local Action

Summary
In E46 of Stories Sustain Us, Steven Fry shares his journey from a small town in Indiana to becoming an advocate for water conservation with Amigos Bravos in New Mexico. The conversation touches on the importance of green infrastructure and blue carbon in environmental conservation. In this conversation, Steven Fry discusses the challenges and successes of environmental advocacy in New Mexico, focusing on the work of Amigos Bravos in protecting water quality and restoring ecosystems. He emphasizes the importance of community engagement, changing mindsets, and the role of natural infrastructure in achieving sustainable solutions. The conversation highlights recent legislative wins, including the establishment of a state surface water permitting program and the protection of significant river segments, while also calling for local involvement in environmental efforts.

About the guest
Steven Fry is responsible for leading policy and project development that improves watershed health, water source protection, and wetland restoration. He also provides research and technical assistance to internal/external requests and works to expand Amigos Bravos’ partnerships with organizations and communities throughout New Mexico. Prior to joining the team, Steven worked on the management of stormwater flows using green infrastructure and the protection of nearshore ecosystems in the Seattle area. He has a Bachelor’s in Economics from Santa Clara University and a Master’s in Applied International Relations from the University of Washington where he focused on the intersection of wetland protection and economic development.

Show Notes
Amigos Bravos: https://www.amigosbravos.org/

Takeaways
•Steven Fry's passion for water conservation was sparked by early childhood experiences.
•Fry's career shifted from finance to environmental advocacy after graduate school.
•He focused on stormwater management and green infrastructure in Seattle.
•His travels during the pandemic led him to New Mexico.
•Fry emphasizes the importance of wetlands in water conservation.
•He believes in the power of local action for global change.
•Green infrastructure offers multiple benefits beyond stormwater management.
•Fry's work with Amigos Bravos aligns with his passion for water issues.
•Incentives and regulations can drive innovation in sustainable practices.
•Natural infrastructure often provides the best solutions for ecological resilience.
•Community engagement is crucial for effective environmental advocacy.
•Recent successes include the protection of 250 miles of river segments.
•Establishing a state surface water permitting program is a significant win for New Mexico.
•The Wetland Jewels program prioritizes restoration efforts based on stakeholder input.
•Local involvement in environmental initiatives can lead to meaningful change.
•Hope lies in the youth and their willingness to engage in critical conversations.

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Transcript

Steven 
What if the key to solving our growing water crisis isn't some high tech fix, but lies in something as ancient and elegant as a wetland? And what if the most powerful driver of that solution isn't top down regulation, but local people who care deeply about the land and water they call home? Hey everybody, I'm Steven Schauer and welcome to Stories Sustain Us, where we explore the real life journeys of people who are reshaping our world.

through the lens of sustainability, resilience, and hope. Today's episode takes us from the heartland of Indiana to the high desert of New Mexico by way of rainy Seattle. Our guest, Steven Fry, shares how his early love for water and nature took him from a career in economics and law to the front lines of environmental advocacy. From stormwater management in urban neighborhoods to wetlands restoration in rural landscapes,

Steven has learned one key lesson along the way. Nature knows best. In this episode, you'll hear how green infrastructure can do more than manage runoff. It can restore ecosystems, inspire communities, and drive innovation in environmental design. We'll talk about Steven's work with Amigos Bravos, a nonprofit that's been defending New Mexico's waters for over 35 years.

From recent legal winds that protect hundreds of miles of rivers to visionary wetland jewels program, Steven shows us what's possible when policy, science, and community come together. Let me tell you just a little bit more about him. Steven Fry is responsible for leading policy and project development at Amigos Bravos, where he focuses on improving watershed health, protecting vital water sources, and restoring wetlands across New Mexico.

He also provides research and technical support and works to expand partnerships with organizations and communities throughout the state. Before joining Amigos Bravos, Steven worked in Seattle, managing stormwater flows through green infrastructure and protecting nearshore marine ecosystems. He holds a bachelor's in economics from Santa Clara University.

and a master's in applied international relations from the University of Washington, where he focused on the intersection of wetland protection and economic development. If you've ever wondered how local action can ripple out to global change, or how a shift in mindset can shape our environmental future, this is a conversation for you. Let's dive in with Steven Fry here on Stories Sustain Us, where we are inspiring action through the power of storytelling.

Steven 
Good morning, Steven, how are you doing?

Steven Fry 
I'm doing well, thanks for having me on.

Steven 
Yeah, thanks for joining me on Story Sustain us. I've been eager to speak with you. I reached out to you a few months ago and you had your hands full with some legislative work in New Mexico and the session's over and you're freed up to talk. So I'm eager to jump into this conversation. Thanks again for joining me.

Steven Fry 
Yeah, of course.

Steven 
Well, so before we get into all the amazing work that you're doing with Amigos Bravos, and I want to hear about the session, you'd mentioned, Offair, that you had some wins. I'm looking forward to hearing what those are. Let's jump into your story first. How did you get to end up working for Amigos Bravos? Where'd you start off? Where's your childhood begin?

Steven Fry 
Yeah, so I was born in Indiana and I was raised there until I was about 11 or 12 and I moved to Seattle with my family. And that was kind of like an eye-opening experience. always say it was like one of the best things that ever happened to me because I came from like a small Midwestern town and then right when you're starting to cause some trouble, all of sudden it was like this whole new world opened up.

Steven 
You

Yeah.

Steven Fry 
And I wound up going to Santa Clara University outside of San Francisco, San Jose area. And I studied economics and philosophy. I thought I was going to be a lawyer for a long time. But I did some exploration in that front and I wound up after some travels after undergrad in Chicago, Illinois, and I was working in finance and.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
While I was succeeding, succeeding, I guess I should say, at that role, I realized soon that it was not for me and I was not happy. And I wanted to get back to something that made me feel fulfilled and was doing my part in the world. And so I actually just quit that job and I went back to graduate school and I went to a program at the University of Washington. And, you know, one of the things that I

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
did at that time was I'd like to ask a lot of hypothetical questions of folks. And one of the questions I like to ask was like, if you could go back in time and redo like your education, what would you do? And my answer was always like, I would go back and work on water. And everyone wants to be like a Marine biologist. And I've done a lot of scuba diving in my life. And I was like, I want to work on water. But I did business.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
as my undergrad. so going back and redoing all of the prereqs for science classes wasn't ideal, but I thought I could use my skill set to work on water issues and water problems. And so in my graduate program, I really started focusing on water. And I met this woman in my conversations as I was building out my network. And she introduced me to the concept of blue carbon and coastal wetlands.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
And I just immediately latched on to this and all of my research in that program was focused on the intersection between economic development and wetland conservation and preservation. And so my whole college experience was focused on wetlands and I soon realized that the biggest problem in Washington's water supply was too much water and stormwater pollution into our coastal ecosystems.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
And so I started working for a nonprofit in the Seattle area focused on stormwater capture using green infrastructure solutions to mitigate stormwater pollution to salmon habitat in the near shore wetland systems. And so I worked on that for a few years, really found it to be, you know, an exciting area where you're having impact with soil and vegetation. During the COVID epidemic, my wife and I decided that we didn't

really want to be in the Seattle area anymore. We needed to change. And so we drove around the country, mainly all of 2020, living out of our car in the woods. And we somehow ended up in New Mexico. And we've never been here before. But we came and we were like, let's hang out for a little bit. And everything just kind of kept falling into place. And so we're still here. We still love it. And, you know, one of the interesting things was

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven 
you

Steven Fry 
When we were driving around the country, I was researching water issues in New Mexico and I came across this podcast. So it's funny that we're doing a podcast today. my now boss, at Amigos Bravos had, had given one and I listened to it and I was like, wow, this organization is doing a lot of good work and they happen to be based in Taos, New Mexico. And so when we actually got here, I started reaching out and I was like, Hey, I've heard about you guys. I think you're doing really good work.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
And so that just like started that conversation. and I was very fortunate, to get some like consulting work with them. And then it ultimately led to my position now. So it felt like kind of serendipitous that a podcast started all of it. And that's kind of how I ended up where I am now.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven 
Absolutely. Fantastic. Well, let me back you up in time. I definitely want to want to know a little bit more about that connection and who your boss is and everything that you're working on. Because that's fascinating. And I love those those serendipitous connections that you talked about. And my wife and I just we kind of did it in reverse. We were down in San Antonio and San Antonio, And during Covid, we were like, it's probably time to go.

And at, you know, post COVID in 22, we kind of did it the other direction. We had never been to Seattle and we were like, I don't know, let's just go there. And that's where we are now. So we kind of, we kind of flipped into the countries, keeping the balance, I guess. Let me take you back in time a little bit to your teenage years in Seattle and your love for water.

Steven Fry 
Yeah, yeah.

Steven 
start in Indiana? that start in Seattle when you got to this big, rainy Pacific Northwest area? When did that connection to water really begin for you?

Steven Fry 
You know, I have some very early childhood memories of feeling overwhelmed or like stressed out. And there was this little creek that was in my neighborhood. And I have these memories of riding my bike to that creek and then just sitting on a rock next to the stream and just like

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
you know, doing what a 10 year old thinks is meditation, you know, and like just sitting there and experiencing the like, noise of the water and the peacefulness and like, just the calming aspect of it. And that memory is like stuck with me throughout my life. And I think that was like the first, you know, building block, I would say towards my now career path. And then of course, Puget Sound when I moved to Seattle, I think

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
because the sound is one of the coolest ecosystems in the world. And so being exposed to that environment definitely continued to build on that. And then as I mentioned, after undergrad, I took some time off and did like a gap year. And I did a lot of scuba diving during that year. And I remember, you know, being under the water and having my mind just go.

blank and not blank in a bad way, but just calm. I wasn't thinking about anything else. I was just really living in the moment. And that serenity really just struck me at that time. And I was like, wow, this is a place where I can just be and not bring anxieties or anything else from my life into this moment. And so that serenity is something that I tried to chase. And I would try to find and bring more holistically into my life.

Steven 
Yeah.

You're present. Yeah.

Steven Fry 
And so would say like those experiences built on each other. And, you know, I still find myself just sitting by water and just like letting it relax me. And I just got back from a trip in Morocco, actually, where we spent a lot of time on the ocean. And I, you know, I can just sit there for hours. It's that I think, you know, as

Steven 
nice.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
You know, here in New Mexico, water is life. And, you know, it just seems like it's always been building to where it's somewhere I feel comfortable and something that I want to work on. And, you know, I always say, like, if you try and change the whole world, you're not going to change anything. But if you pick something that you're focused on and have the energy for, and then you trust your fellow man to do that in their own right, then we can all make change. And so water is just the thing that I feel strongly about. And so that's where I find myself.

Steven 
Yeah. Yeah.

That's your thing. Yeah, right on. I can relate to that and connect. I, as you were sharing your early childhood memory, guess that would have been in Indiana, I'm guessing at the age you mentioned. you actually triggered for me a thought I hadn't thought about. I can't remember the last time I thought of this memory, but when you mentioned your earliest memory of water, my earliest memory of water popped up in, I'm probably was.

five or under, I don't know, was just a kid, a toddler. And my mom would, we would, she'd put me like in a little basket on a bicycle and we'd bicycle to this little creek that was not too far away from our home at the time. And I remember just being fascinated with the little, those little water spiders that just kind of, you know, glide across the top of the creek. I just remember just staring at those, like just totally fascinated by that water environment and these little bugs.

that just seemed to defy what was supposed to happen on water. That's clearly before I understood physics, but that connection to water for me began real early as well and still is a thing for me and my career path as well. So I appreciate that connection and thank you for kind of sharing your journey because it brings up warm memories for me as well. We have something else I think.

that connects our stories. seem to recall and maybe I'm imagining this, so if I'm off base, please correct me. But you have soccer in your background also?

Steven Fry 
Yeah, yeah, I played soccer my whole life. You know, it was like my number one sport growing up, like travel teams and took up most of my life. And then I played in high school and I played like recreationally in college. And then I still play pickup today. I coached youth teams several times throughout my life. So I'm a big like European soccer fan. It's just I like Chelsea is my team.

Steven 
Yeah, right on.

Steven 
Yeah. Who's your clubs? Yeah. Yeah. They still might win some European silverware. I think they should pull out that win there in the final, but yeah, not, not your best year, but yeah. Yeah. Same thing. I grew up playing and, and I, I, uh, I couldn't tell you what's going on in American football, but I can tell you everything that's going on in England and Germany and, uh,

Steven Fry 
Yeah, not our best year, but we're doing all right.

Steven Fry 
Yeah.

Steven 
Spain and Italy.

Steven Fry 
Yeah, it's a beautiful game, know. Yeah, it's something that I've always found myself coming back to. And yeah, it was kind of funny. I was offered to be the assistant high school coach here in Taos, and it was the same time that Amigos Bravos offered me the full time position. And I kept teasing my wife that.

Steven 
It is. It is.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
I was gonna take the assistant coaching job because my dream job is to be the men's national team coach. And I was like, this is how we start. This is how we get there. She was like losing her mind for like a few days. was like, you've been working for this for so long and you're gonna take this other job. I was just pulling her leg, but yeah, exactly.

Steven 
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven 
Gotta follow your dreams.

Nice, Well, yeah, I appreciate that little side trip there. just remembered reading that somewhere about your background, great, I think, connection between our paths in life. I guess, tell me, I'm curious also about your work time here in Seattle before the pandemic and before the road trip, because I want to ask you some questions about that too, but you mentioned you were working

at a nonprofit here doing some stormwater management work and your experience in grad school here at UW. You mentioned a term that I would love for you to explain to the audience because not everybody may fully know what that means. They might have heard it or maybe no one's heard it before. But you mentioned blue carbon. It's something that grabbed your attention in grad school given your business background. Can you tell?

Tell us what that is. Explain to somebody who's a novice at this or in simple terms, what does that really mean for someone?

Steven Fry
Yeah, so, you know, a lot of times we hear about carbon sequestration and how trees and forests are storing a lot of our carbon. Well, blue carbon is the focus on peat and like wetlands and specifically coastal wetlands. And the idea that that nutrient rich peat soil stores way more carbon than your traditional forest.

And a lot of these areas are acting as shoreline protection for our coastal communities. And so like the biggest example that most people will know of is like a mangrove forest. And so they're rooting into the soil and those soils are very deep, very compact and full of rich nutrients that they've been storing carbon for millennium. But as storm surge happens, those plants are also acting as a barrier.

and they kind of dissipate some of that energy as it hits the shoreline. And they also, you know, provide aquatic habitat for fish and other species. And so since I was living in Seattle on a coastal community that experiences storm surge and things like that, it really was interesting for me to think about it as a carbon sink, but also as shoreline stabilization, preventing erosion, preventing storm surge, providing that ecosystem services for habitat.

But then they can also serve as a water quality benefit. And so like in Seattle, we have a lot of stormwater discharge, know, pipes that are discharging from the system so that it doesn't overflow directly into Puget Sound. And so if you have healthy vegetation near those sites, they can help filter out some of those pollutants. And so, you know, there's green carbon, there's blue carbon, there's brown carbon, there's black carbon.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
We don't need to get into all four of them here, but blue carbon is the focus on wetlands and the benefit that they're providing to our ecosystems.

Steven 
Perfect. I appreciate that for the audience who may not be familiar with that, just trying to make sure people are sticking with the story. And I had a guest on a few weeks ago who's doing stormwater work in the Chesapeake Bay area and helping as an interfaith organization, helping congregations figure out how to better manage stormwater on their property and put in some green infrastructure and different

techniques for, you know, cleaning, capturing and cleaning that stormwater runoff. Sounds like you were doing similar work here. is, are there any projects that you can, you can point to as something that you, worked on here in the Seattle area or that, that, that you were working on or something that you're proud of accomplishing here before you jumped in, the car with your wife and traveled around the country?

Steven Fry 
Yeah, we built some really cool story maps that illustrated the impact that vegetation can have. And so we were focusing on the urban core and using the commercial and government buildings, mainly in some private, to manage flows onto their site. And so there was, helped create an incentive program so that private landowners would be encouraged.

to try and capture stormwater, we built a design competition. So HVAC systems, the heating and cooling systems that commercial buildings have, use a ton of potable water. And so we created this design competition to see if buildings could capture rainwater and then use that water in their HVAC systems. And so we had this whole design competition for a year. One of the buildings downtown,

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
I came up with the best design and so like we awarded them and then we were really advocating for that kind of technology to be implemented. We also got students from the University of Washington to help redesign. There was a parking garage where all the water that was falling on the parking garage was just being directly routed to the sewer. But there was landscaping and old fountain, kind of like some green features at the building adjacent to it.

Steven 
It's dumped, yeah.

Steven Fry 
and they were going to destroy or redo all of that vegetation and landscaping. And so I asked them, would you be interested in participating with these students? And I got them on board. And what ultimately happened was they took the rainwater from that garage, routed it through vegetation into the landscaping next door, and cleaned all of that water and allowed it to infiltrate into the soil. And then we put up a bunch of them.

educational signage and stuff as well. And it was right through like Amazon district downtown on third Ave. And so it was like an opportunity for public education as well. And so that was just kind of a cool partnership with a private developer, you know, a building and then a bunch of students just like raising innovation and kind of creativity around the idea, but also, you know, communication with the public on what's possible. And so those were some of the cool projects that I got to work.

Steven 
yeah. Yeah.

Steven
Nice.

Steven
Yeah, right on. I appreciate your work here. There's a lot to be done all over the country. So appreciate what you were doing here before you hit the road. And I want to pick your brain a little bit about that before we get, we end up in back in New Mexico where you are now, because that was something, you know, my wife and I talked about as well too. like, let's just go, let's just go do something. So where all did you go? You said you kind of traveled around, you know,

kind of living in force for a while. What was your route if you don't want me to, I'm just envious and curious.

Steven Fry 
Yeah, it was, it was interesting. We were in Seattle. We drove down the West coast all the way to like San Diego area. And then we cut across through Arizona, Utah, Colorado, heading through those kind of the Rockies. It was interesting. got to the four corners where Arizona, Nevada, and Colorado, New Mexico all join or Utah rather, not Nevada.

we purposely avoided New Mexico because we thought we were going to come back. So we were like, I could have thrown a rock and hit New Mexico, but we like avoided it and went around. And then we ended up in Wisconsin, where my in-laws live and we got married there during COVID, which was very interesting. And then from there we headed all the way. Thank you. From Wisconsin, we headed to Maine and we did like upstate New York, Vermont, Maine.

Steven 
You

Steven 
Nice.

Congratulations.

Steven Fry 
And then we went down the Eastern seaboard, you know, through Appalachia, basically. And then we headed back across the country. So we hit 26 states and ended up in New Mexico. It was quite the trip. It was really nice.

Steven
Wow. Yeah, that's in, this was van life or car camping or what were you?

Steven Fry 
We had a, we were in my Subaru Forester, so it was a little tight and we had our dog, but I had built out like a little like storage area slash bed in the back. And we had like a Thule and we had our bikes and stuff. But we slept in the car a few times, it was a little tight. We mainly, you know, put up a tent. So it was fun.

Steven 
Forster.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven 
It's very, I got a little Forester too. put a little bed in the back of it and we used it once and we're like, yeah, we're just going to put the tent up. It's, it's a little cramped back there. So that's awesome. With the two people and a dog like we've got as well. It, yeah, there's too much. we're, we, uh, we do the tent. We're actually going this, this weekend to Whitby Island for a little, little camping adventure out there this weekend. Looking forward to it, but.

Steven Fry 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
Well, nice.

Steven 
What a trip you had. What a, what a, what an amazing experience. That sounds wonderful. I am definitely envious. So maybe someday we'll pack up when we decided time to leave Seattle. We'll do a nationwide road trip too. So, um, well, all right. So you listen to a podcast while you're driving on the road and you like what the guy had to say and you end up in Taos and you, and you reach out to who, who is this person and what was he saying that attracted your attention?

Steven Fry 
So it was my now boss, Rachel Khan. She has been the deputy director for Amigos Bravos since 2001. So she's been there for quite some time. And she was just talking about, you know, resiliency and how drought conditions are impacting watersheds and just the actions that they're taking through some of their wetland restoration and water quality protections. And it just seemed to be like speaking my language. And one of the things that

I was talking to my partner about when we got here was, you know, this is a beautiful state, you know, it's actually like what I think the best state in the country. It's just absolutely stunning. But I work on coastal wetlands and we're not anywhere near coastal wetlands. So, you know, that is my only hesitation. But from listening to Rachel and doing my research, you know,

I came to the conclusion that wetlands are just as critical in the watersheds of New Mexico and the arid Southwest. And a lot of the design principles, you know, are similar in same way. And so it's a lot of like what I call green or natural infrastructure that we're trying to utilize in order to rebuild or reshape these wet, these watersheds. And so it just, felt like a, interesting transition.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
where I could use what I'd been working on in a new light, in a new landscape. And so, yeah, I just started reaching out. Probably was a little annoying and persistent because it was COVID and there was, they weren't taking on new employees at the time. But like every quarter or so I would reach out and be like, hey, I'm still here. I'm still very interested in wetlands. And yeah, I just kept knocking on that door.

Steven 
you

Steven 
Nice. Let me also say thank you for correcting me because I think I used the he or him on the podcast and it was actually her. So thank you for making and I want to recognize Rachel and make sure I apologize for that. was oops. Yeah. So.

Steven Fry 
Yes.

Steven Fry 
Follow the other shared rules.

Steven 
You use this term a couple of times. also want to dig a little deeper and have you educate me and the audience as well. You've said green infrastructure, natural infrastructure a few times and stuff that you studied here in the Seattle area and how it's also relevant to riverine systems and semi-arid areas where you are now in the Southwest. again, to a novice who doesn't maybe know what green infrastructure is, you

really skillfully explain what blue carbon is, can you tell us what green infrastructure is so people can associate that term and understand what you're referencing?

Steven Fry 
Yeah, so like the best way to think about it is like gray infrastructure is your traditional pipes and like roadways and things that we have built to manage water or other things in our in our built environment. And green infrastructure is instead of using cement and pipes and all that kind of thing, it's using vegetation and soil. And so when we want water to stay on a landscape and

instead of having it convey off like on cement, for example, which makes it run and doesn't allow it to infiltrate. Green infrastructure is soils and vegetation so that when the water falls, it's hitting a permeable surface and it's allowed to infiltrate into the ground. And so when we want to convey water, we normally have drainage pipes or cement or causeways or something like that. But we can also have like what we call bioswales, which are just

cavities in the ground with soil and vegetation and the water goes into that and is allowed to soak in but also drain naturally towards our towards our rivers and the important thing about green infrastructure is it provides a lot of additional benefits than just like What we would think of with gray infrastructure and so you're having soil and vegetation which helps filter and clean the water as it hits the ground

It also helps with like urban heat island effect. And so like you can think of in our cities, it gets really hot with all the cement and asphalt. If we have a lot of trees and shading, it helps for that cooling. It provides habitat for pollinators, aquatic invertebrates, know, mammals, small mammals. And so all these additional benefits come with these type of design solutions and they're often more cost effective than your traditional gray infrastructure, kind of, you know, large.

industrial type projects. And so it's something that we've been trying to build into our built environment. And it's the best way to help heal our environments while providing all these additional kind of ecosystem services benefits that you don't get with like cement and asphalt.

Steven 
Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that clarity and that explanation. yeah, what I've found in my career working in this area, the challenge is, or at least it has been in places where I've worked, is getting the local developers to want to do something different.

You know, the 20th century way of developing with the gray infrastructure with, you know, concrete, seeing rainfall as a waste product and you just want to get it off your property as quickly as possible. with, know, with those hard surfaced, you know, parking lots and driveways and rooftops and everything is changing the developer's mindset and like, no, you can still develop this way.

And make money, right? want, you know, that's part of why people build things is to sell it and make profit on it. So, but it can be more aesthetically pleasing with all these other multi-benefits, better for the ecosystem, better for the environment, better for quality of life, for area residents. It has all these other benefits, but the developers, at least in the areas that I've often worked, they know how to make a profit doing it the way they've been doing it and getting,

them to change their mindset is been a challenge in some of the places I've been. Have you experienced that same difficulty?

Steven Fry 
Yeah. I mean, and the organization I worked for in Seattle was called the 2030 district and their whole mission was to change the hearts and minds, but also, create an avenue where people that could break down those market barriers together. And so I see it as kind of, you know, you have to have a carrot and a stick. have to have building codes that

demand certain levels of performance, but it's also nice to have an incentive carrot to push those developers or designers even further. Because you can't set the milestone way out here because not everyone can get there right away, but incrementally, you'll bring up those design standards and then put some carrots out there to really push innovation forward. And so you see...

some old school where, know, like in any kind of avenue of life, some people are like change is hard and they don't want to change. And then you have your other, your kind of better actors who are really pushing that envelope. And like, we see that in urban design now, we see it in more environmental design and you really have folks that, you know, see the value in these design solutions and have really pushed them a long way. But, you know, what we've also seen is that

nature always wins and nature usually has the best solutions. And so that's why natural infrastructure and green infrastructure is so important. It's like, what we're really trying to do is just replicate what was there originally, because the natural way is going to be most effective. And so as we think about building resiliency and improving the health of watersheds, what we're really trying to do is like, let the system revert back to its natural state.

and that it will heal itself when left on its own. Sometimes it just needs some push because we as humans and our activities on the landscape have degraded it. If we push it back towards its healing process, it will over time heal itself. And so that's why that whole idea of natural and green infrastructure is so important. And I think why I really latched onto it is because nature will win.

Steven Fry 
And if we just help encourage it and be an active participant, we can achieve a lot.

Steven 
Nice. Well, let's use that transition then, because I always think when you're, sometimes it just needs a push or we need to push. And that seems like what a connection I just made is like, well, I think he's working for an organization that is helping to do some of the pushing and some of the educating and trying to, you know, get the community, the residents, the developers, the elected officials, get everybody kind of.

crowd and pushing them in the right direction. So I think that might be way oversimplification of what it is that you do, but tell us a little bit about Amigos Bravos and some of the pushing that you're doing to try to get people to use nature and work with nature in a healthier way.

Steven Fry 
Yeah, so Amigos Bravos is a statewide nonprofit based in Taos, New Mexico. It's been working to protect and restore the waters of New Mexico since 1988. So we've been around for some time. The organization started based on the Malinum mine, which is adjacent to us here in Taos in a town called Cuesta. And it was this mine that had been creating waste products for, you

a number of years, which had really killed the health of the local Red River. And so our organization sprung up basically trying to do restoration and reclamation of that mining site. so mining, oil and gas kind of discharges and reclamation is still a large part of what we do. But since then, we've kind of evolved and added some more features to our organization. And so a lot of what we do now is restore headwater wetland systems.

And we do that through low tech process based restoration. We do it through a lot of volunteer efforts, building simple kind of Bill Zeidike structures, if people are familiar with him. And then we do, we still do a lot of work around holding polluters accountable. So through the mining, oil and gas, things like that, we do a lot of work with water quality standards at the state level. And then.

We also do a lot of education and youth building. So we reintroduced the river otter to the Rio Grande. Right now we're working on cohabitation and relocation of beaver throughout New Mexico. And we have also been doing water quality testing throughout New Mexico for the last 15 years, which is a really critical aspect of our work. Cause we bring volunteers in, we show them how to do water quality sampling.

Steven 
Nice.

Steven
Thanks.

Steven Fry 
And in the state of New Mexico, we only monitor our water once every nine to 10 years. And as you can imagine, water quality can shift dramatically in that timeframe. And so what Amigos does is we take samples three times a year, one in the spring, one in the summer, one in the fall on rivers across the state. And we submit that data to our environment department. And so we're getting multiple samples every year on these streams. And that really helps with

Steven 
Wow.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
water quality aspects. And I'll get into it more, but we've done a lot of work around the Sackett decision, which, you know, and that would be a topic that I think we can talk about as well. Yeah.

Steven 
Okay. Well, let me ask you about the topic that first brought you to my attention in the organization. And then we can eventually work our way to SAC it. so I mean, we're recording this in May, it's airing in June. I reached out to you probably in January-ish, early February-ish.

I was reading articles about the end of the year, 2024 end of year success stories, know, things that we should be happy about with regards to environmental issues around the world. And I read an article that you were quoted in and it was about, I'm just going to read the headline here real quick. New Mexico Water Board votes to protect 250 miles of river and stream segments from pollution. And the article, you know, was talking about

protecting portions of the Rio Grande, Rio Chama, the Cimarron, Pecos, and Jimenez River watersheds. And you were one of the folks quoted in there. So can you tell me a little bit about that success story, this 250 miles of river and stream segments that are protected?

Steven Fry 
Yeah, so outstanding national resource waters are the level of protection that we're talking about. And it is the highest level of protection under the Clean Water Act. And it's something that Amigos Bravos has been working on for a long time. And it basically is a nomination that prevents future degradation of that water quality.

And so, especially in a time right now where we're experiencing the Sackett decision and reductions in jurisdictional geography for the Clean Water Act, this is an avenue to protect that water quality in the streams moving forward. And so it's something that requires a nomination and a petition to the Water Quality Control Commission, a hearing, and then, you know, all this discovery and stuff. And so over the course of the last

I want to say 20 years, we have protected over 1700 miles of river now in New Mexico and like 8,300 acres of wetlands. so we, this was our latest petition. did it in conjunction with the New Mexico environment department. It was one of the avenues that our current governor, Michelle Lujan Grisham tasked the environment department to do. And then amigos bravos in a coalition of partners.

worked hand in hand with the environment department to strengthen the petition as much as possible to add waters that we thought were critical. And then we ultimately got that success last December. So 250 miles were now protected. And so the water quality in those streams can no longer degrade in any way. And so it's just a level of protection that we find is critical for these streams, especially as

It's the shifting dynamic of who's protecting waters in New Mexico. But it's also a way to really get the public engaged so that now they know that their local streams are protected. And we, as I mentioned, we do the water quality testing. So now we provide water quality samples on those streams. And so now we're over 1,700 miles of streams in New Mexico. It's something that states across the country are trying to implement.

Steven Fry 
I would say that New Mexico is the lead on this topic. We have definitely gotten the most number of streams protected. And so now it's, know, now that we have these levels of protection in place, now we're looking at, how can we work with our federal partners, our local partners, our state partners to make sure that these streams are maintaining the water quality standards that they're supposed to.

Steven 
Yeah, that's incredible. mean, that is a great success story. and the role that you and Amigos Bravos had on it, I'm sure was instrumental in kind of spearheading and pushing for this. Is that something that you worked personally on or, yeah?

Steven Fry 
Yeah, it was definitely a big thing on my plate for the last year. As I mentioned, we worked very closely with the Mexico Environment Department and their team, which a bunch of rock stars just want to say thank you to the Mexico Environment Department team. really did a lot. But they came with a list and they were using a criteria one definition to nominate these waters. So it had to be within

Steven 
Right on.

Steven Fry 
wilderness, a state park, wild and scenic, wildlife refuge. And so it was like a very descriptive nomination criteria. And so we looked at all of the waters in the state that could fit that criteria. And then with our work through partnerships and stakeholder engagement, you know, identified the ones that we should really be advocating for. And so we increased the number of waters that were included in that petition, and then really fought.

for them to stay in, you cause as opposition came up, you know, other stakeholders who want these protections, you know, got wind of it. They were advocating for the removal of certain streams. And we were really there to be like, no, this is the reason why we have, you know, thousands of community stakeholders in support of this. And it was really just demonstrating the widespread support across the, across the state that appreciate clean water.

Steven 
Sure.

Steven Fry 
and want these levels of protections in place for their local waters. Because they provide irrigation, drinking water, recreation, habitat, all of these critical functions for our communities. so really demonstrating to the Water Quality Control Commission, to the Environment Department, to decision makers on this issue, just the widespread level of support we had. It's almost hard to say no when the whole state's there feeling we want these.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
we want clean water. And so it was definitely a huge win. Like I said, this is, I think, our sixth version that we've done on this front. And we look to continue increasing these levels of protections across the state. And by increasing, I mean just adding new waters.

Steven 
Wow. Wow.

Steven 
Adding more to it. Yeah. That's, that's so fantastic. Congratulations to you and the team. And I, I appreciate you recognizing and thanking the folks at the state as well. Public servants often get a bad rap. But they're incredible people doing real difficult work and the constraints that they have put on them by policies and procedures and things that they don't have any control over. That's the realm of the elected officials. So.

Really thank you for as a public servant myself working in the public sector appreciate it when somebody recognizes that their public servants out there also Really working hard to do these get these environmental wins also. So but it does take as you Described as your scenario. It does take this coalition of

nonprofits and residents and everyday people, as well as the elected officials. But those elected officials, as you pointed out, like to listen when there's a groundswell of constituents and residents that are in favor of something. it takes folks like you kind of going out there educating people and rallying the public to get behind these things.

all around. Congratulations to all of you. I mean, it's really a fantastic, fantastic win for New Mexico and a great example for other states to follow.

Steven Fry 
Thank you.

Steven 
So you had some other wins, it sounds like. We talked a little bit before the recording. We couldn't do this interview back in February because the New Mexico legislative session was going on and you were real busy in that. asked if we could wait until session ended and that's why we're here in May. But before we started recording this morning, you had mentioned you had some wins this session as well. So how'd it go?

what happened this spring for you in your state session there.

Steven Fry 
Yeah, so the biggest thing I want to talk about is the state's service water permitting program. And so just backing up for context, two years ago, there was the Supreme Court decision, SACA versus United States, and that reduced the jurisdiction of the Clean Water Act or waters of the United States, and it shifted it dramatically, and particularly in New Mexico. And

up to 95 % of our waters in New Mexico are no longer protected. And New Mexico was one of three states in the nation that didn't have a state surface water permitting program. And so we relied on the EPA to issue NPDES permits and dredge and fill permits to protect our waters in New Mexico. Now the EPA...

Steven 
Wow.

Steven Fry 
can only issue permits on waters of the United States. And so when Sackett happened, it just took away 95 % of the jurisdiction. And so it's had a massive impact on New Mexico. there was decisions before that, the Rapanos decision about 15 years ago also really started this trend, but Sackett was like one of the crushing blows for New Mexico. And it's something that

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
We at Amigos Bravos were extremely concerned about a number of our partners were extremely concerned about. And the fact that we didn't have a state surface water permitting program left us extremely vulnerable. And so it's something that we've been working on. We were working on this before the SACA decision, but when that came down, it really galvanized us and our partners. And so two sessions ago, we were able to secure a lot of funding to support the development of this program.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
But then this past year in the legislative session that we just had, we were able to get two bills signed by the governor that created basically this state surface water permitting program for New Mexico. So it was two bills that got wrapped into one, but one bill basically gave us the authority to have primacy for waters of the United States and New Mexico. So taking that authority from the EPA and

Damos Island in the state and then also expanding that program to be able to do waters of the state. So the rest of the 95 % and so this was We needed these two pieces of legislation to get through in order to set up this program And so it was like critical that we get it through for those that aren't aware in New Mexico has a very interesting legislative Foundation or setup and so we have a 60 day session

followed by a 30 day session and then a 60 day and a 30 day. And so it's very short amount of time. And really, if you're trying to get these kind of policy legislation initiatives through, it really needs to take place in the 60 day session. And so if we weren't successful this year, it's almost like having to wait two years. And we already lost all these protections that outstanding national resource waters are one way we can combat it, but.

Steven
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
It was incredibly important to get these pieces of legislation through this year. We had some really amazing legislative sponsors, Senator Wirth, Representative Ortiz, and Senator Gonzalez. I want to give a shout out to those three. And then just a widespread coalition of partners that helped champion these through. And we were able to get them passed. And so now the Environment Department is going to stand up this program over the next year or two. And so...

Eventually, a couple years down the road, once we have everything in place, we will be able to protect New Mexico's waters with New Mexico. You know, we don't have to rely on out of state actors to protect our waters, which is incredible because the people living here know our watersheds the best. You know, and we see the ones that are protecting our waters. And so that was our big push was just demonstrating that, trying to communicate that message that right now, someone in Dallas

Steven
Right.

Steven Fry 
is determining the water quality of New Mexico. And they probably haven't been here on the ground very often. They don't know these watersheds. And it should really be local New Mexicans who have the authority to regulate our water. And so that was, it's a huge win for us. Now we are no longer one of three states that doesn't have this. And so it was a big win, especially in light of the federal uncertainty that is currently going on and the removal of protections for our.

Steven 
you

Steven 
Yeah, no doubt. Congratulations. That is a giant win. And also surprising to hear that you didn't have those kind of protections in place already. you know, again, congratulations on all the hard work of working with those legislators to get that passed. just for the reference about Dallas, if people are wondering, well, why would somebody in Dallas, that's the regional headquarters is for the EPA region that you're in, I'm assuming. Yeah.

Steven Fry 
Exactly. Region six is headquartered in Dallas. And so yeah, that's where they are. Yeah. just one more thing to add is the reason why it was so impactful to New Mexico is because we're at an arid state and a lot of our streams, like perennial streams are ones that flow all year round. We have a lot of intermittent and ephemeral streams. So those are only running when we have precipitation or snowmelt and all of those intermittent and ephemeral streams.

Steven 
Yeah. Yeah.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
aren't protected anymore under the Clean Water Act. And that is the vast majority of New Mexico's waterways. And so those are the streams that are above our communities, above our irrigation, our acequias. And so those are the streams that we're, you know, and ultimately all of those streams feed the main stem. And so water quality across the board is impacted. And so that's really why we needed these protections in New Mexico is because that's the vast majority of our watersheds.

Steven
Yeah. And that's, that was the crux of that second decision that those intermittent streams were deemed no longer part of the waters of the U S. so that really shook, you know, the water world and folks, like you that, that work on water issues, not just in New Mexico, but across the country. mean, there's the reverberations of that decision are still being felt in many places of, of how do you protect.

those intermittent streams and ephemeral streams because they need protection. And so, so really congratulations, amazing work. That's a tremendous success story. Like those on the show, like telling people you can accomplish good things, like things, it's not all doom and gloom. they're, you you take this doom and gloom decision, the second decision that really altered the, you know,

literal as well as metaphorical landscape of the country and you guys built something that now has local controls in it which is arguably going to be better for the systems anyway. So that's fantastic. That's fantastic.

Before we transition into your call to action, there any other big wins or any other things that you want to share about your work at Amigos Bravos that you want the audience to be aware of?

Steven Fry 
The one thing that I would like to mention is our wetland jewels program, which is something that I run or help run. And this is an avenue that we have built around wetlands in New Mexico, where we do high detailed GIS mapping. And we combine that with stakeholder input on what is valuable for them and their local watersheds. And through this process, we identify keystone wetlands.

within different landscapes in New Mexico. And that's how we prioritize our wetland restoration is we try and target these kind of keystone wetlands that are providing a lot of ecosystem services benefits in addition to water quality and quantity. And so we have four different versions of this. We're currently updating this page on our website, but if you go to our website, you can see these maps. And we think it's a really incredible tool for not only prioritizing restoration, but

going after implementation funding and working with partners. It's a way that we advocate for protection with the Forest Service and BLM and other agencies for these watersheds. And that is really driving how we think about restoration in New Mexico. And so just want to advocate for people checking out the Wetland Jewels program.

Steven 
And what's the website so people can get there?

Steven Fry 
So it's amigosbravos.org. And then we have some kind of toolbars at the top, one of which is watershed restoration. And it's one of our first things that you can flag. You can also reach out to me. I don't know if you're going to have my contact information, but it's just S as in Steven, F-R-Y at Amigos Bravos. And I'm happy to direct folks to the resources. yeah, that's how we.

Steven 
Perfect. Yeah.

Steven Fry 
We're thinking about restoration in New Mexico and a lot of it is these headwater kind of critical zones and it drives a lot of our restoration. So just wanted to flag that as well.

Steven 
Fantastic. Well, definitely put the website and your contact information on the show notes of the podcast so people can reach out to you personally or visit the website and learn more about all the great stuff that you're doing there in New Mexico. So with that, Steven, what's your call to action? Now we've got me fired up. Hopefully the audience is fired up about what we can do to protect our local watersheds, whether they're coastal or...

You know, it's semi-arid. mean, there's wetlands work and water work to be done everywhere. So what do you want people to do with this information? How can they support you or support Amigos Bravos or what's your call to action for folks?

Steven Fry 
Yeah, it probably seems, you know, simple or straightforward, but like my call to action is really just get involved. Especially with, you know, all this uncertainty that's going on at the federal level, like, you know, one response is almost like paralysis, you know, like you're just like numbed by all of this what's going on and it's just easier to disengage.

But like paralysis is death and like what we really need to do is engage at the local level. And so if this topic is interesting to you, I promise that it's not rocket science. A lot of what we're doing is built with hand tools and with volunteers and just being on the landscape and learning to read it and seeing where issues are arising. And so there are volunteer workshops all over the, you know, all over New Mexico, all over the country.

Steven 
Yeah.

Steven Fry 
And so if this is something that you're interested in, I would just encourage you to reach out to local groups who are leading these efforts. And, you know, we do a ton of volunteer workshops where, you know, sometimes we're picking up trash. Sometimes we're planting willows. Sometimes we're building rock structures and streams. And, you know, it's a day. Sometimes we do camp outs. Sometimes it's a few hours. And it's just a way to, you get to learn a lot when you're participating in these workshops.

Um, you know, I don't have an engineering degree, like through being hands on with a lot of these experiences, I've learned how, what we're doing and how to implement and things like that. And so it's not rocket science and everyone can do this. And if you go and participate, you'll learn these skills and you'll be able to then apply them to other streams that you care about or your backyard. Um, and so more than anything, it's be a local advocate.

and get involved in your local watersheds and just be aware of what's going on and try and make a little bit of difference yourself. And so that would be my call to action.

Steven 
Perfect. I love that. mean, that's, know, everything is local and, you know, getting involved, encouraging people to get involved. And I appreciate your, you know, recognition that the times we're in are at best uncertain and a little challenging and that can be overwhelming and, you know, that taking that effort, taking that

that moment to center yourself and bring yourself into the moment and taking action to get engaged in your local community is so important right now. It's important all the time, but it's certainly a real critical aspect of the times that we're in right now. So I appreciate your call to action and echo it and encourage folks to get involved in whatever they're passionate about in their local area. they're...

water folks like you and me, then there's plenty for them to do wherever they're listening or watching this podcast. So get involved, get engaged. So Stephen, let me ask you then we'll transition to the last few questions about hope since these are uncertain times and there are some challenges that we're facing undoubtedly in our communities and our country and across the globe. There's definitely some big, challenges that

that we all face. So I like asking folks about hope and hope from the perspective, not as a little fluffy emotion, but really as a mindset, as defined by those who study these kinds of things. Hope is when you have a vision for a better future and you have some steps, a plan of action to take to get to that.

better future and you have a sense of agency that there that you feel there's something you can do about it. might not be able to do it all by yourself. You may need help. It may be difficult. You may fail, but you have a vision, you have a plan of action, and you have a sense of, of agency that you can effectuate some of that change. And the more you think that you have those things, the more hope you have, the less you think you have those things, the less hope you have. and, we're

Steven 
trying to build some hope and encourage action on this show. So I want to talk to you about what makes you hopeful. So I'm going to ask you three questions. I would ask that you don't think too long about the questions. You just kind of give your first response and see where we end up. But my first question for you, Stephen, about hope is what is your vision for a better future? That can be for you personally or professionally or for the world. What's your vision for a better future?

Steven Fry
Hmm.

Steven Fry 
I think like an active and involved community is one. I think in this day and age, it's so easy to hide behind our phones or not engage with folks who don't maybe think similar to us. And the hardest thing in the world to do is to change your mind and to admit it. And I think that that is a problem with our society now.

is no one is everyone's afraid to change their minds because it makes them feel, I don't know, like they were, you know, they don't want to admit they were wrong. And so I think having impactful conversations where we admit that we're wrong and have the freedom to change our mind is how I think about it. like connecting it to my work. You know, New Mexico beavers have always been seen as a nuisance. And a lot of people just

get them off my landscape type mentality. But we're starting to see the incredible benefit that they have to our ecosystems, especially in extending our hydrograph for ranchers and irrigators. like the ranching and ag community has traditionally been opposed, but we're starting to see folks change their mind. And when they are the ones who are communicating this message, now it becomes even more impactful. And like now we're really seeing progress. And so

Steven 
Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah.

Steven Fry 
That's like my hope is that we take the time to think critically and take in information from new sources and give ourselves the ability to change our minds.

Steven 
Perfect. You kind of already answered this second question, but I want to give you a chance to dive in a little bit deeper on it. So tell me why that's important to you.

Steven Fry 
So.

I mean, as we all see in frustration is like the status quo isn't working for most people. And that is why folks are getting so frustrated with how things are going right now, both socially, culturally, environmentally is like what's going on isn't working. And if we just try and maintain status quo, it's just going to continue to unravel. And so that's why it's important for me is like, we need to use.

the lessons that we've learned, traditional knowledge, ancestral knowledge, and involve it with current knowledge and chart a new way forward where it's beneficial for everyone. And the biggest thing there is changing our minds and acknowledging that previous practices were not the best practices. so change is hard, as we talked about at the beginning of this episode. And the only way to really have change is to change your mind. And so that's why it's so important for me is that...

What's going on is not working for most of us. It's not working for the environment, surely. And if we don't change the way we're doing things, then it's only gonna get worse for future generations. So that's why it's important for me.

Steven 
Perfect, love that. So last question then, imagine for a moment that this future you just described where people are having critical conversations, difficult conversations, but are opening their minds to other ideas, willing to acknowledge when they're wrong and we're in a society that is developing new ideas and changing and growing, that everything you just described as a future

That's happening now. Imagine that's happening right now. How does that make you feel?

Steven Fry 
I think we're there. I think that we're achieving critical mass and that my hope is really in the youth and the next generation, because we see how they're thinking about things now. And they're willing to push the envelope and they're willing to break down these historical foundations because it doesn't align with their principles. And so like,

My hope is that we're on the path and that we're achieving critical mass and that we are valuing environments for what they're actually doing for us. And like in the future you just described, that's what we're doing. We're evaluating and valuing ecosystem services for the benefits that they're providing, not only to us, but to our environment and to our wildlife. And so that just makes me so happy knowing that like the values that we talked about with Korean infrastructure.

the additional value that they're bringing to our lives beyond gray infrastructure are now being recognized and are now being taken into account when we're thinking about these projects financially. It's just mind blowing for me. And so now it's like, these are no brainer solutions because now we're valuing what they actually do for us. And so in this world that we're talking about now, it's like everything's being thought of in this light. And I just see...

how our environments are going to respond to that and the benefits that it's going to provide to us. And so that's just a really exciting future.

Steven 
Yeah, right on. Well, I love all that and I'm on board and I'll be doing my part to make your future vision a reality. And I agree. think we're reaching critical mass and can't reach it quick enough, but it's because of work by you and others like you that we're getting there. So thank you for what you're doing to make the world a better place in your little piece of heaven there in Taos. I appreciate your earlier message about you. Just find that passion, find that thing that makes

makes meaning for your life and dive into it and make change there and trust that your fellow human beings are going to be doing the same elsewhere and we'll all get to a better future together. So thank you so much, Stephen, for being with me on Stories Sustain Us. I wish you all the best and I look forward to reading more news stories about the great wins you guys are getting there in New Mexico. So I'll leave you with the last word.

Steven Fry 
I just want to thank you for what you're doing and helping to elevate these stories and helping to select our story and getting it out there in the world. hope it has a positive impact on folks and yeah, keep doing what you're doing. Thank you.

Steven 
Right on. I wish you all the best. Take care. Bye bye.

Steven 
What an insightful and energizing conversation with Steven Fry. Today we explored the critical importance of restoring watershed health, holding polluters accountable, and cultivating a strong water ethic for future generations. Steven shared his journey from managing stormwater in Seattle to fighting for the rivers in New Mexico, to pushing for systemic change through community engagement and advocacy. His message was clear.

Uncertain times demand engaged citizens, and we are most certainly in uncertain times. I really appreciate Steven's powerful reminder that we can't sit back and let others decide the future for us. We each have a role to play, whether it's speaking up for clean water, advocating for stronger environmental protections, or simply learning to listen with open hearts while holding firm to our values. If you've ever felt like things aren't working out in our systems,

You're certainly not alone and you're not powerless. Now's the time to act. The world doesn't change by standing still. Like Steven has demonstrated for us, uncertainty is not a reason for silence. It's a reason for action. So take that first step. Use your voice, call or write your elected officials, show up to local meetings, support clean water initiatives, join a watershed group, participate in a community cleanup, whatever it is, just

start because the world needs your voice and your action. A big thank you to Steven Fry for being here with us today and for his essential work protecting rivers, empowering communities and building a better future for all. I want to thank Steven for his dedication, which is truly making a difference. If you were inspired by Steven's story, I hope you'll consider taking action in your own community. And if stories sustain us moves you,

Please support the show. You can do so by subscribing, leaving a review, sharing it with a friend or family member, or visiting me at storiessustainist.com or on the show's socials. Every bit helps me keep telling the stories that inspire change. So I appreciate all your support. Be sure to join me next time as we travel from New Mexico to New York, where we stay focused on freshwater ecosystems.

On June 17th, I'll be talking with an ecologist working on dam removal projects that are helping reverse centuries of ecological disruption. We'll explore how restoring rivers can lead to thriving, sustainable landscapes. You won't want to miss it. So you can catch the next episode of Stories Sustain Us on June 17th at storiessustainus.com, wherever you listen to podcasts and on YouTube. Thank you so much for being here with me today. Keep doing your part to make this world a better place.

Until next time, I'm Steven Schauer. Please take care of yourself and each other. Take care.