
Stories Sustain Us
Stories Sustain Us is a captivating program that delves into the inspiring stories of individuals who have dedicated themselves to making the world a better place. Hosted by Steven Schauer, each episode features conversations with guests from all walks of life who share their heartfelt tales of both hardships and triumphs on their extraordinary journeys to create a lasting positive impact on our planet.
Stories Sustain Us
Stories Sustain Us #50 - Connecting the Head, Heart, and Hands: Climate Solutions with Dr. Katharine Hayhoe
Summary
On episode 50 of Stories Sustain Us, which celebrates the show’s one-year anniversary, host Steven Schauer is joined by the brilliant and inspiring Dr. Katharine Hayhoe—climate scientist, author, and Chief Scientist for The Nature Conservancy. In this deep and meaningful conversation, Dr. Hayhoe shares how her Christian faith led her to climate science, breaks down climate solutions into three accessible metaphorical buckets (turning off the hose, enlarging the drain, and teaching people to swim), and emphasizes the power of communication in driving climate action. Together, Steven and Dr. Hayhoe explore how values—not just data—guide our decisions, why climate change is a moral and human issue, and how everyday people can become the most trusted messengers. This milestone episode is a hopeful, practical, and empowering call to action for anyone ready to use their voice for good.
About the Guest
Katharine Hayhoe is an atmospheric scientist whose research focuses on understanding the impacts of climate change on people and the planet. She is the Chief Scientist for The Nature Conservancy and a Horn Distinguished Professor and Endowed Professor of Public Policy and Public Law at Texas Tech University. She has served as a lead author for the Second, Third, and Fourth U.S. National Climate Assessments and her work has resulted in over 125 peer-reviewed papers, abstracts, and other publications. She is the author of the best-selling book Saving Us: A Climate Scientist’s Case for Hope and Healing in a Divided World. She also hosts the PBS Digital Series Global Weirding and is a co-founder of Science Moms. Hayhoe is a Fellow of the American Geophysical Union and the American Scientific Affiliation, an Honourary Fellow of the Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society, an Oxfam Sister of the Planet, and the World Evangelical Alliance’s Climate Ambassador. She has been named to lists including the TIME 100 Most Influential People and Fortune's 50 World's Greatest Leaders, received a number of awards including the National Center for Science Education’s Friend of the Planet Award, the American Geophysical Union’s Climate Communication Prize and Ambassador Award, and the Sierra Club’s Distinguished Service Award, and is a United Nations Champion of the Earth in Science and Innovation.
Show Notes
Website: katharinehayhoe.com
Takeaways
•Faith and science are not at odds.
•Climate change is personal: It affects food, water, health, housing, and the world’s most vulnerable communities.
•No silver bullet—just silver buckshot: Effective solutions require a mix of strategies, from clean energy to green infrastructure to climate-smart agriculture.
•Communication is crucial: The most powerful climate messengers are not scientists—they're friends, family, and neighbors.
•Six ways to make a difference: Dr. Hayhoe shares her "head, heart, hands" framework and top actions anyone can take today.
•Hope is a choice: We must actively seek it out and share the s
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Steven
What if I told you the biggest solution to the climate crisis doesn't require a PhD or a billion dollar invention, but simply a conversation. Today, we're tackling one of the greatest challenges of our time, the disconnect between what we know about climate change and what we're actually doing about it. But there's hope and it begins with talking, not arguing, not lecturing, just honest, values driven, heart to heart conversations.
Hey everybody, I'm Steven Schauer and welcome to Stories Sustain Us, where we explore powerful personal stories from people working to build a more just and sustainable world for all. This is a special one for me. This is the 50th episode of Stories Sustain Us, marking one full year of the show. And I couldn't be more honored to celebrate it with someone who has been a great inspiration to me and the show, Dr. Katharine Hayhoe.
In this special episode, we dive into how Dr. Hayhoe bridges the worlds of science and faith, how climate solutions fall into three metaphorical categories, turning off the hose, enlarging the drain, and teaching people to swim. And we talk about why changing attitudes through meaningful conversations might be the single most important thing we can do to create a better future for all. Dr. Hayhoe and I also talk about natural climate solutions, environmental justice,
the myth of the silver bullet and how our values, not just data, should guide the actions we take. Before we get started, here's a bit more about today's very special guest. Dr. Katherine Hayhoe is an atmospheric scientist whose research focuses on understanding the impacts of climate change on people and the planet. She's the chief scientist for the Nature Conservancy and a Horn Distinguished Professor
an endowed professor of public policy and public law at Texas Tech University. Dr. Hayhoe has served as the lead author for the second, third, and fourth US National Climate Assessments, and her work has resulted in over 125 peer-reviewed papers, abstracts, and other publications. She is the author of the best-selling book, Saving Us, a climate scientist's case for hope and healing in a divided world.
She hosts the PBS digital series, Global Weirding, and she co-founded Science Moms. Among her many other accolades, she is a fellow of the American Geophysical Union and the American Scientific Affiliation, an honorary fellow of the Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society, an Oxfam Sister of the Planet, and the World Evangelical Alliance's Climate Ambassador.
Time named her one of the 100 most influential people and the United Nations honored her as a champion of the earth in science and innovation. And to me, she's simply a powerhouse of intellect, compassion and purpose. And today she's here to remind us that we are not alone in this fight. So how do we turn knowledge into action and action into hope? Let's find out with Dr. Katharine Hayhoe here on Stories Sustain Us, where we're inspiring action through the power of storytelling.
Steven
Good morning, Dr. Hayhoe. Welcome to Stories Sustain Us. I am so excited to have you on the show.
Katharine
Thank you, it's great to be here.
Steven
Yeah, and I was ⁓ mentioning to you off ⁓ camera and I imagine I'll bring this up one or more, one or two more times today how excited I am to have you on the show because you're absolutely one of the inspirations for this program and we'll dive into that a little bit later, I'm sure, but it's an honor to have you on as ⁓ episode number 50 to celebrate one year of Story Sustain Us. So thank you so much for taking time to join me today.
Katharine
it is such a pleasure and such an additional pleasure to know that why I'm here is because talking about this issue is so important. So I'm excited to talk about it with you today.
Steven
Absolutely. Fantastic. Well, normally the show, I jump into, you know, the conversation with folks to learn a little bit about their background, where they grew up and, you know, some major milestones in your life. But I know we've got a hard stop on this interview for your busy schedule. So I'm going to kind of forego that a little bit. But I do want to jump into a little bit of background about you. And if that's OK, we can just jump into it.
Katharine
sure go for it.
Steven
Perfect. Well, a couple of months ago, I had a guest on the show, Bonnie Sorak, and she's from the Inner Faith Partners for the Chesapeake. And I believe you did an event with them a couple of months ago as well. ⁓ from my perspective, faith is such an important part of an individual's life, and ⁓ it really directs so much of what they do and how they think and how they act in the world.
And so faith has got to play a role in sustainability and climate solutions in my perspective. And I know you've been very open about your faith as a Christian. So I'm curious if you could tell me and my audience a little bit, how has your faith informed your journey as a climate scientist? How do you bridge that gap between faith and religion and science in your own life?
Katharine
Well, the fact that we would even say there's a gap speaks to, I think, the deep cultural and ideological efforts that have gone into creating that gap. Because for me, the reason I'm a climate scientist is because I'm a Christian, not despite it. And for me as a Christian,
Steven
Yes. Yes.
Katharine
I believe that the Bible is God's inspired word, but I believe that the universe is God's created word. And so how can two things possibly be in conflict if they come from the same origin? So the idea that there's a gap was actually, there's a fascinating book for anybody who's curious about this called The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind by a historian from Notre Dame called Marc Noll. And he tracks how the so-called gap between science and faith was deliberately dug out.
in America over the last 200 years by primarily by people who for political or ideological reasons were either uncomfortable with what science was saying and wanted a plausible excuse to reject what science was saying, which we see even today with climate change or
Steven
Yeah.
Katharine
They didn't like what faith was saying and they wanted a plausible excuse to deny the ethical or moral calls that faith was making. So in each case, there were people who didn't want to listen to what either science or faith were saying. And so they decided to promote the myth, the idea that they are in conflict with each other rather than in agreement. It's fascinating though, I have a friend, Elaine Eklund at Rice University, who's a sociologist who studies science and faith. And what she has found is that contrary to conventional wisdom,
She surveyed almost 2,000 scientists at research institutions in the US, and she found that 70 % of scientists would consider themselves to be spiritual people, and that they believe there is something more to life than just what science can study. And what she found especially fascinating was that the 30 % who identified as atheist, a fifth of them insisted that they were spiritual atheists. And she was like, well, what is that? What is a spiritual atheist? And they did that on their own. That wasn't like something they could select in the survey.
Steven
What is that? Yeah.
Katharine
So the idea that science and faith are in conflict is one that is sort of a narrative that is built into our culture. But when you actually start to dig down, you realize in many cases it's not. And for me personally, again, the reason I'm a climate scientist is not because of the science, but because of my faith, because I believe that we are to love and care for others as we ourselves have been loved by God. And today climate change is affecting the poorest and most vulnerable, most marginalized people.
Steven
You
Katharine
in the city where we live as well as in the poorest countries around the world. And if we really take our faith seriously, and I think this applies to all major world religions, not just Christianity, how can we not do everything we can to help fix this problem? And for me, doing everything I can involves my skills in science. So that's why I became a climate scientist.
Steven
Yeah. Yeah.
I love that and I suppose I would identify as an agnostic. I would be on that survey as a spiritual minded scientist, I imagine, because I don't see the gap either and I appreciate your explanation and I think there's some false narratives that kind of push us apart and create these polarizations where they don't have to exist. So I love that you're out there ⁓ pushing.
⁓ climate science as well as your faith in connecting those two. You've talked about how climate change is not just a science issue, it is a moral issue, a human issue, and I think you kind of just alluded to that. Do you want to go a little bit deeper into how that it's not just about hard science, it is about love and compassion and empathy for the...
for the world, for everyone that's in it, as well as the creatures we share it with? Is there more to that that you can share? Yeah.
Katharine
I mean, how long do we have? I could share this all day, yes.
So if you look at it this way, science can tell us that climate is changing faster than any time in human history. Science can tell us that all of the warming we're seeing today is human caused. Because according to natural factors, the planet should be gradually cooling right now. We're getting less energy from the sun, the orbital cycles are pushing us into a cooling phase.
we should be getting gradually cooler, but instead we're warming faster and faster. And then science can tell us increasingly that this is affecting our lives. It's affecting the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat. It's affecting the price that we pay for insurance or groceries. And it is absolutely affecting all other living things with whom we share this planet on whom our own life depends. So there's a moral quality to caring for nature, but there's also a deeply practical quality if all
living things other than humans disappeared off the face of this earth today. How long would we last? Not long! Whereas, you know, if humans disappeared, I think nature would be just fine without us. So, so there is a very practical aspect to this. But what do we do about this? We have a lot of different solutions. There's no perfect solution. There's no one silver bullet. Each solution has pluses and minuses. What do we do about it? That's where our values come in.
So in other words, ⁓ science is like a ⁓ map. It can tell us, know, in this direction or that direction, here's what lies, but our values are like a compass. They can tell us which way is the North, which way do you want to go? And so for many of us, for over 85 % of us around the world, our values come from our faith. And just about every major world religion, and in addition to most other,
ethics systems have at their core idea of being good stewards or caretakers for all living things on this planet and that we as humans are impacting so deeply and caring for and loving each other, our sisters and our brothers around the world, especially those who are not as fortunate as we are. Now I have to tell you a story because you mentioned, you you would put yourself in the spiritual agnostic category, which according to a lane survey, 20 % of scientists are spiritual, but wouldn't adhere. They wouldn't identify themselves with a specific label.
Steven
Yeah, yeah, please.
Katharine
⁓ so a number of years ago, after I had, I had written a book with my husband, who's a pastor talking about a Christian perspective on climate change. ⁓ I was attending a scientific conference, ⁓ and one of my colleagues reached out and asked to have lunch with me, which is very common because at scientific conferences, that's where you get together to discuss new proposals or new research projects. So I just assumed he wanted to discuss new research projects. And so I went into the restaurant to meet him. And before I literally pulled out the chair and I had not quite sat down yet before he said,
Steven
Yeah.
network and yep, of course.
Katharine
You know, I'm not a person of faith, but I care about climate change too. And I said, well, I never assumed you didn't. mean, he had dedicated his life to studying the impacts of climate change and the solutions that we could implement. And he went on to explain how even though he viewed himself very much as a humanist, he cared about climate change for the same reasons I did, which is because it affects people who are poor and marginalized and vulnerable. And that's just not fair. So bringing those values into play is really important. And in fact,
Steven
Right. Right.
Katharine
Social science research identifies what they think of or what they call dynamical tipping points in society that would make climate action the norm rather than the exception. I think of this as the opposite to the dynamical tipping points we see in the climate system, where if we push the climate system too far, it'll switch into a new state. And those are typically very negative because we humans are not prepared for new states. We like it just right, like Goldilocks.
Steven
Yeah, too far. Right.
Right,
right.
Katharine
But in society, we do need a new state. We need a new state where we eight billion humans live sustainably on a finite round planet. Because right now we are living unsustainably on a finite planet. We are living as if the planet were flat and infinite. But in fact, of course, it is round and finite. So we do need a new societal state.
in order to succeed. so researchers have identified what they call dynamical tipping points in society. And one of those tipping points is making the moral case for transitioning off fossil fuels to clean energy. So who's gonna make the moral case? It's not science that makes the moral case. It's our values that make the moral case. And that speaks to as humans.
Steven
Right. Right.
Katharine
We like to think we're like the perfect rational man that Plato described, but we are not. Yes, we are not. All of us, even scientists, we make decisions based on our hearts. And so we have to make that heart, that value connection.
Steven
No, yeah, we like to think that. We are not. That is correct. Yes. Totally emotionally driven.
Yeah, yeah, I love that. Thank you so much for making that connection. That's part of the genesis of this show, Stories Sustain Us, is about storytelling like you're doing so fabulously. Because we don't make decisions with spreadsheets and PowerPoints and facts and figures, all of that is incredibly important. We need the facts. We need the data. But just as you so well articulated, we actually make choices based upon our hearts, based upon our feelings.
Yeah, this idea we're super rational beings is really a mythology. We have the capability of being rational, but yes, we are mostly emotionally driven creatures, is why I'm so in, I could talk to you about this all day too, but I wanna bridge that gap then between ⁓ faith and science and that emotional driven value system and the data.
Katharine
Definitely.
Steven
and how do we then connect those two things a bit? ⁓ I'm wondering as the chief scientist for the Nature Conservancy, an incredible organization, I'm a big fan of and have many friends and former colleagues that work in that organization and ⁓ moving on, I guess, to climate solutions a little bit. You've kind of laid the framework of what the problem is ⁓ and how it's impacting all of our systems from
you food and economics to the environment that we live in. ⁓ Your organization, believe, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Nature Conservancy ⁓ really emphasizes natural climate solutions, ⁓ reforestation, regenerative agriculture, those types of kind of natural ways of ⁓ helping to restore a more balanced climate system. There's other technical solutions like carbon capture and things of that nature.
⁓ For my non-technical audience, could you help explain the difference between a natural climate solution and a technical solution like carbon capture? What are those differences and maybe simplify it for an audience that isn't necessarily ⁓ up on the science of it all?
Katharine
Yes. And in fact, can basically explain the solutions that we need in three categories. But before I start, I want to be very clear that there is no silver bullet. But the more worried we get, the more people are seeking silver bullets. And so you will even see headlines saying, is this the silver bullet or is that the silver bullet? And the answer is always no, there is no silver bullet. Why not? It's because
Steven
Perfect. Yes.
Right, right.
Katharine
of the origin of the problem. So here's the problem. The problem is, is that our planet has a natural blanket of heat trapping gases that keep us warm, just like a blanket keeps you warm at night. Without this natural blanket, we'd be a frozen ball of ice. So that's not a problem. That's a good thing. But what we are doing is we are digging up and burning coal and gas and oil. That's 75 % of the problem. And then we are also cutting down trees.
deforestation and large scale industrial agriculture. And that is a quarter of the problem. And when you put all of that together, we're producing huge amounts of heat trapping gases. Heat trapping gases from our tailpipes, from our smokestacks, from the front end of cows, and from burning down all the trees. And all of those heat trapping gases are building up in the atmosphere where they're wrapping an extra blanket around the planet.
And just like you would if someone snuck into your room at night and put an extra blanket on you, you'd wake up sweating saying, hey, I didn't need this extra blanket. I'm too warm. That's what's happening to our planet. So because these heat trapping gases are coming from so many different places, they're coming from how we heat and cool our homes, where we get our electricity from, what powers our factories, what powers our vehicles. Again, they're coming from fertilizer.
and from ruminants like cows and sheep. They're also coming from cutting down forests and deforestation in the Amazon or Indonesia. So they're coming from all these different places and that means that there is no one thing that will fix everything. But what that means is there's a lot of what I think of as silver buckshot. So there is a solution to fit every issue. And I love the diversity of that because the biggest solutions we need are solutions that have multiple wins right now.
So solutions that, yes, they cut our heat trapping gas emissions, but maybe they also cut the pollution that's making us sick when we breathe it. Maybe they're helping our cities get cooler, helping to protect coastal areas from storm surge, or helping us grow more food, not less, or giving us electricity that's cheaper, not more expensive. So we need these win-win-wins. And so that's why it's good news, I think, that there's a lot of silver buckshot, not just one big silver bullet. So what does the silver buckshot look like?
To explain it, I like to use the metaphor of a swimming pool, an above ground swimming pool like the one I grew up with in my backyard in Toronto where my toes could just touch the ground when I got in it. Now, if you think of the atmosphere as a swimming pool, did you have one of those too? Yes, yes. So think of the atmosphere as a swimming pool and the level of water in the pool is the level of heat trapping gases in the atmosphere. So about 200 years ago, at the beginning of the industrial revolution,
Steven
Yeah, had one of those too. I had one of those too. Yeah. Yeah.
Katharine
we stack a giant hose in our pool and we've been turning the hose up every year. So the level of water in the pool is rising and it's rising faster and faster every year because more and more water is coming out of the hose. So what's the first thing we have to do? Obviously we have to turn off the hose, right? So turning off the hose can be done in many different ways. And the first one might surprise you.
The first and easiest way to turn off the hose is efficiency. We waste almost 70 % of the energy we produce. Something like 30 % of all the energy from all the coal, and oil we produce is used to transport fossil fuels alone. And in terms of our efficiency, in terms of the end use, we're also very wasteful too. So efficiency is a first way to cut a huge amount of what's coming out of the hose.
Steven
Yeah. Yeah.
Katharine
Then we have to replace the energy we use with clean energy. And that could be wind or solar with storage, course, geothermal, ⁓ safe nuclear is also a way to reduce that hose. And then we also have to eliminate deforestation. We have to work with agriculture to reduce the emissions from agriculture as well. And then for the last few drops in the hose,
we can cut a little slit in the hose before it reaches the pool and we can at great expense with a lot of energy suck a few drops out of that hose and store them underground and that is carbon capture and storage.
But our pool also has a drain and the drain is mostly made up of nature. And so we have calculated the Nature Conservancy that you can make, we can make the drain between 20 to 30 % greater by investing in, first of all, protecting ecosystems that would otherwise be destroyed. That's number one. Number two is restoring ecosystems that have become degraded. And I'm not only talking about forests, I'm talking about grasslands.
coastal marshlands and wetlands that store a ton of carbon, kelp beds offshore that also do. And then number three is regenerate what's already been destroyed. That's where the tree planting comes in. It's number three. Number four is climate smart agriculture because if you do agriculture the right way in terms of how we grow crops, you can actually put carbon back in the ground instead of putting more of it into the atmosphere. And then once we've done everything we can with nature at great expense,
Steven
Big deal, right.
Katharine
with a lot of energy, we can suck a few extra drops out of the pool using direct air capture. That's where you pass air through a filter and it takes the carbon out of the air and you can store that underground. So turn off the hose, make the drain bigger, but there's one more thing we have to do. For many people, the water is now so high that their toes don't touch the ground. We have to help people learn how to swim.
That's building resilience, adaptation, helping people adapt to a warmer world. So I personally love the solutions that turn off the hose, make the drain bigger, and help people learn how to swim. And I'll give you an example of what I mean. So as the world gets warmer, we are having more frequent and much stronger heat waves. And we know that in the same city, a low-income neighborhood can be
Steven
Yes, please.
Katharine
over seven degrees Celsius, over 15 degrees Fahrenheit hotter than a high income neighborhood just because they don't have green space. They don't have trees and grass that keeps you cool. And the reason they don't have it is because of historic racist redlining practices where people wouldn't lend the right amount of money. The city wouldn't invest in that area to build parks and green spaces. And so as climate changes, those neighborhoods are much more vulnerable to extreme heat than richer neighborhoods with green lawns and big trees and parks.
Steven
Right, right.
Right.
Katharine
So when you go in, and the Nature Conservancy has done this, when you go in and you green a low-income neighborhood, first of all, you are helping people learn how to swim because you're helping to keep them cool during heat waves. Often, those neighborhoods are also more prone to flooding because if you're more likely to flood, then the land costs less to live there in the first place. But when you put in green spaces, it absorbs the water, so you're protecting against flood. Now,
Steven
Yeah, of course, yeah.
Katharine
When we burn coal and gas and oil, it also produces air pollution that when we breathe it in can make us sick and even die. Around the world, millions of people die every year from air pollution from fossil fuels. But it turns out that trees and vegetation filter that air pollution. And they even reduce the levels of stress in people's bodies that contribute to everything from physical to mental health conditions. So when you green a low-income neighborhood, it also does that. ⁓ and when all of that green stuff grows,
It sucks up carbon from the atmosphere. And the cooler it is, the less energy you need for your heating and cooling. Or sorry, for your cooling, I should say, during heat wave. So by greening that low-income neighborhood, you're helping people learn how to swim, you're making the drain bigger, and you're helping people turn off the tap. And so those are the types of solutions we need. And I love this because you're smiling, because these types of solutions, they put a smile on our face. They're great solutions.
Steven
Yeah. Yeah. Well,
yeah. Well, they, they all make perfect sense. And I think the, ⁓ the, the, resilience ⁓ solution, helping people swim in the analogy solution. I mean, I think that gets also to that, you know, moral and value driven, you know, connection that we talked about earlier. I mean, you know, the, yes, our ⁓ historic choices that we've made, the systems that we've built.
Katharine
Yes.
Steven
⁓ have made these differences, know, economic, socioeconomic differences in the world. I think we do have a moral obligation to, you know, look at these systems and the folks who have found themselves in a lower socioeconomic situation because of choices that were made in the 1920s, 30s and 40s about redlining. ⁓ Yes, we should be investing in those communities and then those neighborhoods. That's not, you know, giving away, that's making things right.
Katharine
Thank
Steven
in my perspective. I appreciate that connection between the moral right thing to do as well as it's also the sustainability right thing to do. We're making the world ⁓ more livable for all, not just for the few that can afford it. So I love that analogy that's Graham and totally use that. I'll give you credit for it. I like the buckshot approach as opposed to the silver buckshot as opposed to the silver bullet.
Katharine
you
Steven
I am curious, not trying to pin you down on a silver bullet though, but because you are so involved and knowledgeable of all the things that are progressing around the world, good and bad, ⁓ I'm curious, is there something that, you know, the next big thing or is there a tipping point you alluded to earlier? Is there something, whether it's in the realm of ⁓ solutions or people or policy or behavior, that you see?
Like it's either right here or it's right around the corner that the next big thing might be coming that we can help get behind and push for it. That we can get there together if we know what it is and we can help walk together towards that direction.
Katharine
Yeah, absolutely. I would say sort of starting at the baseline and moving up, I would say when we're talking about physical solutions like the hose, the drain and learning how to swim, people often say, well, as soon as we get nuclear fusion, then that'll solve all their problems. But nuclear fusion would only produce electricity. Now, electricity is a big part, but it's not the only part. It's not going to take care of deforestation or unsustainable agricultural practices.
Steven
Mm-hmm.
Katharine
When we talk about anything that literally turns the hose off, makes the drain bigger, teaches people how to swim, ⁓ there's never gonna be a silver bullet for that. But then if you move one level up, policies that enable or encourage or incentivize turning off the hose in multiple ways and or making the drain bigger in multiple ways and or helping people swim in multiple ways, policies can be ⁓ more of a, I don't know, what's between a bullet and buckshot?
Steven
Right, right.
Katharine
I don't know what you'd call that, but a halfway. So for example, around the world, economists tell us that when you put a price on carbon, because right now when we produce carbon, we're not paying anything for it, but it has incredible damages. And so other people are paying for it. So for example, you know, our own home insurance went up 50 % last year. And the biggest reason it went up 50 % is because insurers are pricing climate risks into what I pay for my insurance. But there's no way
Steven
Right, right.
Katharine
for me to tie my personal emission reductions to reducing my insurance. So just because I get all my energy from wind energy, which I do, doesn't make a difference in my insurance rates. So there's no economic incentive for people to make the right decisions. So economists have found, and in fact, two economists actually won the Nobel Prize, ⁓ what was it, like seven or eight years ago already, for showing that putting a price on carbon so that when people actually make a purchasing decision, they're aware.
of the impact of that decision is one of those sort of big ⁓ sectoral, even national, even international, big policy mechanisms that could help, especially if you compensate middle and low income households as Canada has done for the last six years, if you compensate them so that the amount they're paying in carbon pricing is equal to...
or less than what they're getting back from the dividends. And then only the really big emitters are paying and that encourages them to change their behavior. So that is a big ⁓ lever. But what we found in Canada was that there's an even bigger one above that. And if you don't invest in the one above that, nothing below it is gonna work. The one above that is communication. People have to understand what's happening
why it matters to them and what we're doing about it and why it works. I think of this as the head, the heart and the hands. So we have to understand that climate is changing, humans are responsible, the impacts are serious and in Canada most people would agree with that and actually even in the US most people would agree. In the US two thirds of people are worried about climate change and three quarters agree it's real and it's serious. But then you ask people do you think it will affect you personally? And the number in the US is almost
halfed, people don't think it affects them personally. And then in Canada, two summers ago, we had a horrific wildfire season in the summer. And very sadly, it looks like this summer is shaping up to be more of same.
Steven
Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, there's
already some wildfires burning up there. Absolutely. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.
Katharine
yeah, and the plumes of smoke are coming all the way down already as far south as DC.
So we had a horrific wildfire season and you would expect that people would be like, horrible wildfire season when we have an election coming up, which we just did last month, ⁓ then we have to vote for a climate ⁓ candidate and we need more. We have carbon pricing, but we need more. That's not what happened. In fact, the opposite happened.
Because we, first of all, people felt like, well, what am I supposed to do to stop those wildfires? And so in the election, polls showed that 70 % of Canadians basically said, sure, climate change is real and I'm worried about it, but I don't think there's anything we can do or are even doing. So I'm going to vote based on the price of housing and the price of eggs. Essentially was what people said.
Steven
Yeah, same thing happened in
the same in the United States in the last election climate in wasn't even a top topic of the whole election season. So, right.
Katharine
Yes!
It wasn't. And
that's because in both the US and Canada, both ⁓ the President Biden and Prime Minister Trudeau, they did not explain the benefits of carbon pricing and of the Inflation Reduction Act in the US. They didn't explain them. Nobody, people who had jobs because of the Inflation Reduction Act didn't even know that that's why they had the jobs in clean energy manufacturing, the majority of which were in red conservative states.
Steven
Right. Right.
Right.
Yep.
Katharine
people
in Canada did not even know that the reason that they were, mean, my own dad, he got this like incomprehensible, ⁓ you know, he got like this money put directly into his bank account with this line on the bank statement that he couldn't even figure out what it was. And it turned out it was his carbon tax rebate, but he didn't even know what it was. And my dad has a PhD in science education and he couldn't figure it out. I mean, he eventually did, but it took him a while. So people didn't even know.
Steven
No, Right, right.
Katharine
why they were getting these rebates, why, you know, there were all these programs for weatherproofing your house or all these rebates if you bought an ⁓ EV. They didn't even know and the same in the US. And so if people don't understand what is happening, how it benefits them and how it's actually making an impact, then they're not going to support the policies. And if they don't support the policies, then the right choice is going to continue to be the most difficult and most expensive choice.
Steven
Right.
Katharine
And what we need is we need the right choice for everyone, regardless of where they live, who they are, how much they earn. We need the right choice to be the most affordable and the easiest choice. And the only way to do that is to change our social norms, to change our policies and to change our attitudes. So now when people say, is there any such thing as a silver bullet? The only answer I have is we need to change attitudes. We need to help people make the head, heart, hands connection.
Steven
Yeah, remove those barriers.
Katharine
what's happening, why it matters, and what we can do about it so that they will vote, support policies, take actions themselves, and encourage that change in social norms to make change easy for everybody.
Steven
Which gets us then to back to communication. mean, that's the perfect bridge to what I wanted to talk to you about is part of your initial message that kind of blew you up a little bit on that your Ted talk, even four or 5 million people have already seen that Ted talk. And your main message there is the biggest thing we can be doing is talking about it. Because that's how are we going to change attitudes and how are we going to change societal norms is by engagement, is by making sure that
our neighbors understand why they got a carbon tax credit back in their bank account or what the Inflation Reduction Act has done for them personally, making that personal connection. how do we do that? Then what's your best advice? Because not everybody, as I said, I was inspired by your message. I went out and created a podcast. I'm going to go talk about it. But not everybody's going to do that. Not everybody's going to try to be a content creator and put messages out.
Katharine
Right.
Thank
Steven
People can all talk to their family members, their neighbors, their coworkers. you know, so what's your ⁓ advice for folks to how do you start these conversations and how do you bridge that gap when you're talking to someone who either doesn't understand or is a climate denier? Some, know, how do you, you know, what do you advise folks on just having everyday conversations so we can get that momentum going to change society and change attitudes? Where does it start and how do we get it going?
Katharine
Well, first of all, it starts with the fact that the science shows that people often say, well, I'm not a scientist, right? But the science says that we scientists are fairly trusted messengers, but we're not number one. The number one most trusted messenger is someone we know. Someone that we share something with. We might live in the same area, have kids in the same school, participate in the same type of events, attend the same church, ⁓ even be part of the same family.
So we are the best messengers and all of us have access to different circles. So we're all part of different organizations. We all live some somewhere different. We all have different perspectives, different things that we care about. So for example, if you're a gardener, you're the perfect person to talk to other people who are gardeners. If you're a birder, you're the perfect person to talk to other people who are birders. If you go to a church or a synagogue or some type of congregation, you're the perfect person to talk to the people who go there. If your kid goes to a certain school, you're the certain.
best person to talk to all the parents of the kids who go to that school. Or if you go to school yourself, you are the perfect person to speak to everybody at that school. So you get the picture. So we need all of these voices everywhere. And now when I say we need to talk about it, often people think, ⁓ she's going to tell me the secret formula to go tackle Uncle Joe.
Steven
Right, right.
Right, right.
Katharine
Uncle Joe
is always posting on Facebook or showing up to family dinners saying those scientists are just raking in the government grants for their Swiss bank accounts or, you know, something like that. Unfortunately not. So 10 % of people in the US, slightly lower number in Canada, but there's still dismissives, you know, all across North America, Australia, European Union and beyond. There's dismissives everywhere, but even in the US, it's only 10%.
Steven
Right.
Yeah.
Sure. Yep.
Katharine
Now, even though it's 10%, we all tend to know one or more. And how can you identify a dismissive? A dismissive is someone who brings up climate change all the time, like a sore tooth. They can't leave it alone. Every time they bring it up, they want to share how it's a hoax or how it's actually cooling or how CO2 is plant food or how warmer is actually better. And my definition of dismissive is somebody who
If an angel from God with brand new tablets of stone that said global warming is real and foot high letters of flame appeared before this person, they would still reject it. So who are we to think that we can change their minds? I don't think we can. I think it requires a genuine honest to God miracle to change a dismissive mind. think in 20 years, I might have seen maybe two dismissive changed their minds and it was not because of anything I personally did or said.
So with the Uncle Joe's of the world, my best advice is to say, I'm sorry you're wrong. And if they are indeed a family member, you say, I love you. I'm sorry you're wrong. Now let's talk about sports or let's talk about fishing. And yeah, didn't they have to put a new roof on that stadium to keep it air conditioned because it's too hot or ⁓ isn't it sad that there aren't as many fish today as there were when you were young? I wonder why that is. Why do you think it is? But.
Steven
I'd love that.
Yeah.
Katharine
Do not
get dragged into arguing over solar cycles with them or anything like that because that's what they want. It feeds them and it does not change their mind. actually, research has shown it actually hardens their denial. So don't get engaged in hardening their denial. But 90 % of people are not dismissive. And so with 90 % who are not dismissive, we need to talk about what? We need to talk about the heart and the hands. Why it matters test personally?
Steven
that there's argument. Yep. Yep.
Katharine
and what real solutions look like. So someone says, what about China? And I say, and you can say too, if you subscribe to my Talking Climate newsletter, because every week I have good news, not so good news and something you can do. So if you subscribe to Talking Climate, you will know, oh, okay, great.
Steven
Which I do, by the way, and I encourage
everybody to do that. Yeah, I absolutely love that weekly newsletter. So, but continue, I just wanted to let you know it's wonderful and put that extra plug in there. Please go sign up for it if you're not already signed up for it.
Katharine
Thank you.
Thank you. As one person said, you make me feel so good about something that's so bad. But I do include, like I said, not so good news because we need to understand. And the not so good news is not about polar bears and ice sheets. It's about how climate change is affecting our skin or how it disproportionately affects people who are older or how it even affects fertility rates for people who are trying to get pregnant or how it affects bananas and coffee and chocolate or things that matter.
Steven
Yeah, yeah.
That's good news, yes.
Yeah. Yeah, are food. You had a
recent issue about food, right? Yeah.
Katharine
to our lives.
Yes, and children's health and sports and things like that. Anyways, so if someone says, for example, what about China? I would say, yes, what about China? Because last year, they installed more solar panels in a single year in China than the US has in its entire history. Now, aren't you worried about the US falling behind in the clean energy race to countries like China? What can we do about that?
Steven
Yeah. All right.
Katharine
And that sort of can prompt a discussion about where we get our own energy from and how actually there's ways that now we can even pay less, not more, to get our energy from clean sources if you live in certain places like I do in Texas or other places where clean energy is readily available. So we have to have conversations that don't hit people upside the head with these big global facts about, my gosh, we're passing the 1.5 degrees Celsius threshold. We're all gonna die. What's somebody supposed to do about that? It's like,
All the Canadians who saw the wildfires and were like, well, what am I supposed to do about that? I'm going to vote based on the price of housing. And I actually, forgot the punchline to that whole story. The new prime minister who was elected is an economist and he was elected based on his economic ⁓ expertise, which is very high. But of course he understands carbon pricing very well. And so from an economic perspective, he knows that it's a very effective policy mechanism. But being a smart man, he also knew that it was so profoundly unpopular because nobody had ever been told.
how it benefited them or why it worked, that he had to scrap the tax because public opinion overweighs policy levers. Yes. So anyway, so back to that. So when we start to have a conversation, it's not about, you know, hitting people upside the head with this massive amount of scientific facts. We have to begin with something we have in common. So bond over something we share, something, a place we both love, people we both love, things we both enjoy. If we don't know what that is,
Steven
Gotta get elected. Right. Yep.
Katharine
We need to just get to know the person and figure out what that is. I started conversations over shared love of cooking, beach vacations, even knitting one time, but I didn't know that this other person knit until we'd had a conversation about it. Then you connect the dots. Connect the dots between what we both care about and how it's being impacted by climate change. And then always bring in positive, constructive solutions. And you might say, well, how the heck do you get there from knitting? Well, in Australia,
Steven
Right, right.
Katharine
As you would know, again, if you read my newsletter, there's this amazing group called knitting nanas. Nana, course, is a term for grandmother. And so these knitting nanas have knit in protests against fossil fuel expansion in favor of climate action. They're actually using their knitting as a way of protest, which I absolutely love. But other people are using their knitting skills to create ⁓ warming stripes, scarves, and blankets, where every row is a year.
Steven
Yeah, yeah.
Katharine
And if it's colder than average, it's blue. And if it's warmer than average, it's red. And the darker it is in either direction, the colder or warmer it is. And so I have a warming scarf that someone knit for me. And when I wear it, people say, what a beautiful scarf. What is it? And I can say, ⁓ this is actually a warming stripe scarf. It is showing how much warmer it's got. Look, it's blue down at this end 100 years ago. And then by the time you get to now, look how red it is. This is how much our planet has warmed. So.
Steven
Nice.
That's brilliant.
Katharine
There's all kinds of creative ways to have these conversations. And that's literally why I write Talking Climate every week. I write it every week because I want to give people a different way to start a conversation every single week. And nowadays it's amazing. There is a program in Australia that has just started up in Ireland too, where they're training hairdressers to talk about climate change. Because there you are in the chair, you're there for, you know, half an hour, an hour, you're having, you're talking.
Steven
⁓ yeah. What are you going to do for the hour? Yeah. Yeah.
Right. That's fantastic.
Katharine
What a great time to talk about climate change. So
all of us can talk about it. You do not have to be a scientist. In fact, if you're not a scientist, that probably means you're an even better person to talk about it than if you are.
Steven
Right,
yeah, that trust level, that personal connection is what we need. Well, I'm keeping tabs on the time and we've got about 12 minutes left or so ⁓ and a couple transitions I still want to make with you. Besides signing up for Talking Climate, which I again encourage everybody to go do and I'll post on our show notes how to get to your webpage and how to sign up for these things. What is your call to action? You know, we've had...
this you've given us so much great information about what the problem is, what some of the three different types of buckets of potential solutions are, how we can then arm ourselves with this knowledge and go start this conversations with folks to start moving the needle. Beyond all that, what do you want folks to do? How can they support your work, the Nature Conservancy, or what do you want them to do? What's your call to action for folks?
Katharine
Yes. Well, my call to action is you will not be surprised to hear based on the science of how we as individuals can make the biggest difference. Because so often people think, okay, she's going to tell me what to eat. She's going to or not to eat. She's going to tell me how to travel or not to travel. She can tell me how to use energy. Now don't get me wrong. If we live in relatively wealthy countries, which most of us do, then our personal carbon footprint is much larger than if we lived in a low income country.
Steven
Right, right, right.
Katharine
which means that our actions have much greater influence. But remember what we were talking about before. The best choice today is still the most expensive and or the hardest choice. It is still more difficult to eat responsibly, to source your energy responsibly, to travel responsibly than it is to just do the status quo with a much higher carbon footprint. We need to change the system so that the best choice in every circumstance is the big, easy button.
And so it's just a no-brainer that you eat more plants than meat or that you take public transportation or bike than you take your personal internal combustion car. We just need to make these things no-brainers. So for that, as Bill McKibben says, he says the most important thing an individual can do right now is not be such an individual. So by that, he refers to the fact that in North America, people are very individualistic. And so when we talk about action, they automatically think of
what can I do in my personal life. But if we really want to change the system, the system is made up of people. And if we look to history, our society has changed before at the scale we need it to today. Think about the abolition of slavery, women getting the vote, civil rights being enacted, apartheid ending in South Africa. All of these were massive societal changes. And
the people involved took steps in their personal lives to live true to their values. But what actually tipped the balance? It was when, as Bill says, an individual was not such an individual. They used their voices to call for collective action. So if you go to my Instagram account or my threads account, you will see pinned to the top of it, ⁓ and my blue sky account as well, you would see pinned to the top of it, a science based list of what you can do. Number one, have a conversation about
Steven
to group together the group.
Yes.
Katharine
your heart, why it matters, and the hands, what we can do. Number two, join a climate action group to help amplify your voice. And on my website, which is just my name, KatherineHayhoe.com, I collect lists of groups. So if you're really into nature, the Nature Conservancy is a great group to join. There's a chapter in every state, every US state, and 80 other countries around the world. If you are a parent, if you are a person of faith, if you are a student, if you're a senior citizen, if you're into certain sports,
I have all these different groups that you can join, sign up for the newsletter and amplify their voice. Number three, consider where you keep your money. So what we do with our money actually is part of our voice too. It's crazy, but keeping a thousand dollars in a savings account in a bank that invests all your money in fossil fuels produces the same amount of carbon as flying from New York to Seattle once a year. So what we spend our money on as well as where we put our money,
And something I talk about often in my letter is Bank Green, where you put in the name of bank and they'll tell you how they rate on that scale. Where we spend our money, where we keep our money, how we invest our money for those of us who have pension or retirement funds, that can be a way to use our voice. Then next, use your voice where you work or where you study. Because how does any organization change? It's typically not because the CEO or the president comes in one morning and says we have to change. It's typically because somebody else says, why are we doing this? Why don't we do that?
Steven
Yeah.
Katharine
they're doing it over here, we should do it over here. People using their voices are why businesses, companies, and organizations are changing. Then we need to use our voice with our elected officials. Now of course I'm talking about voting in federal elections, but I'm also talking about voting in many other elections. 99.9 % of elected officials in the U.S. for example are not federal.
Steven
Yes.
Yeah.
Katharine
And there are massive decisions being made at the city level, at the county level, at the state level. In Texas, the railroad commissioner is the one who controls all the massive methane emissions from the West Texas oil fields. So voting all the way down the ballot and attending local community meetings and just reaching out to our elected officials is a really important way to use our voice. The Yale Program on Climate Change Communication found that most elected officials consistently under
Steven
local level.
Katharine
estimate how much their constituents care because they never hear from them. And then one more at the end, number six, make a change in your personal life in terms of what you eat, how you travel, how you get your energy and make it contagious by talking about it. Tell everybody around how much you love this new plant-based recipe, how much money you saved by getting a credit union loan to put solar panels on your roof, how...
Steven
Yeah. They need to hear from them. ⁓
Katharine
being car free has actually worked out great and how much money and stress you've saved by doing so, or how you actually, took public transportation or bike the other day and it was phenomenal. Tell people what you did and make it contagious. So those are the six most important things. And if you wanna remember them, you can either rewind here or just go to my Blue Sky account, my Instagram account, or my threads account and it's pinned right to the top.
Steven
All of that I will put on the show notes as well so people can get to you right away and easily to get all that information. That is fantastic, amazing. I love all of that and I appreciate you put it in such an easy format for average everyday folks to file. They don't have to have a PhD to understand this. Just go get it and go get involved. That's lovely. Well, I know I typically end every episode ⁓ asking my guests about hope.
We talk about hard subjects on these shows, climate change and climate anxiety, for example, today. ⁓ But because this is a 50th anniversary, it's a one-year anniversary, 50th episode, kind of a special occasion for me and the show, rather than doing a deep dive about what you're hopeful for in the future, I'm going to simplify it a little bit. And I just want to ask you one last question. ⁓ What are you grateful for? And it can be for you personally.
Katharine
Mmm.
Steven
professionally for the world, just what is bringing you a sense of ⁓ gratefulness into your heart these days? So what are you grateful for?
Katharine
Well, what I'm grateful for is probably also the answer to what gives me hope. ⁓ And we have to remember though that hope will not find us. We have to go out and look for it. Our entire ecosystem of news and social media is built to deliver bad news, not good. Because as humans, that's what we click on and share.
Steven
⁓ Nice
Yeah, it's a skill, we gotta build it. Yep.
Yeah, right.
Right.
Katharine
So if we want to find hope, if we want to find things that we're grateful for, we actually have to go out and look for them. And then when we find them, we need to share them. And that's a big reason why I do my newsletter as well. And why I wrote my book, Saving Us, to answer the question, what gives us hope? So I am grateful every day for every single person who is taking action, who is making a difference, where they live and their community and their school and their place of work.
And almost every day I hear a story of somebody who's doing something that I had no idea about. And I'm not talking about, you know, big, rich, famous people who are, you know, celebrities or in charge of companies or anything like that. I'm just talking about just individuals who are making a small difference. Like Mother Teresa said, you know, it's like you drop a tiny little stone into a pool and then the ripples go all the way across the pool. So I am so grateful for the fact that we are not alone. We are all in this together. That giant boulder of climate action.
Steven
Right.
Katharine
It's not sitting at the bottom of an impossibly steep cliff with only a few hands on it. It's not budging an inch. It's already rolling down the hill. It already has millions of hands on it. And every day I learn about a new hand and every week in my newsletter, I share about more of the new hands I found out about. And it's just so encouraging to realize we are not alone. And that is the first step to hope. When we feel alone and isolated, it is so easy to give in to despair and discouragement because climate change is a global issue and
Steven
Yeah.
Katharine
I can't fix it alone, you can't fix it alone, none of us can fix it alone. But when we realize that we are not alone, that there's millions of other people with us, you and me and everybody who's listening to this, we're all in this together too. That's what I'm grateful for and that's what gives me hope.
Steven
Absolutely.
Wonderful what I and it's part of the reason why I do this show is to combat the the negativity that's out there because it is often all we hear and and it is an act that we have to go do to find something to be grateful for and something to be hopeful for like you talked about and Appreciate your time so much your your wisdom your experience and expertise and your kindness and your your heart I appreciate all that you do to make the world a better place and I
couldn't be more grateful to celebrate my one year anniversary with you as my special guest. So thank you so much for joining me, Dr. Hayhoe, and thank you for all that you are doing and no doubt will continue to do. So I'll leave you with the last word.
Katharine
Well, thank you. It is such a privilege to be with you here on this one year anniversary. And thank you for everything you do as well, Steven. And everybody who's listening, you're not alone either. We are all in this together and that path to a better future begins with something that's so simple. We don't even think about it. It's just a conversation today. Thank you.
Steven
Perfect. Thank you. All the best.
Katharine
You too. Bye.
Steven
Bye.
Steven
What an incredible conversation with Dr. Katherine Hayhoe. Today's special episode, we explored how climate change isn't just a scientific issue. It's a deeply moral one. We learned that climate solutions fall into three big buckets, turning off the hose, making the drain bigger, and teaching people how to swim. We also talked about the power of values-driven communication, the myth of the silver bullet, and how each of us, regardless of our background,
can be the most trusted messenger within our communities and circles of influence. I wanna take a moment to personally thank Dr. Hayhoe for joining me today and for everything she does to make this world a better place. Her work has been a major inspiration for this podcast from the very beginning. So it's an incredible honor to celebrate my 50th episode and one year anniversary with her as my special guest. What always amazes me about Dr. Hayhoe beyond her remarkable scientific credentials
is her ability to communicate with such clarity and compassion. Her analogies and metaphors, like the extra blanket, the swimming pool, and the silver buckshot, make complex science not just understandable, but memorable. That's a rare and powerful gift, and I'm grateful she was here today to share it with us. I'm also deeply grateful just knowing that there are people like Dr. Hayhoe out there, people leading with heart and science, showing us that we're not alone in this fight. Yes.
climate change can be very overwhelming at times. But this conversation gave me a lot of hope and I hope it did the same for you. It's important to remember we are not alone. Planet is full of people working every day to make the world a better place for all. And most are doing this work simply without notoriety or fanfare. Now for me, the change doesn't typically happen as fast as I would like and maybe that's the case for you. It's not happening as fast as you'd like to see either.
Change is happening though. Your efforts, whether large or small, matter. I say this often at the end of the show and I really believe it. You matter, your voice matters, your action matters. So thank you for being a part of this show and thank you for all that you're doing to make the world a better place. Now it's time to talk about making the world a better place, talking about what actions we can take. If you were inspired by this episode as I was, Dr. Heyhoe gave us six things we can all start to do today.
Number one, have a conversation. Start talking about climate change with the people in your life. Two, join a climate action group. Find your community and amplify your voice. We can't do this by ourselves, so we need to join with others who share our common values. Three, think about your finances. Where you bank and where you invest matters. Four, speak up where you work or study. Systems change when people ask questions and suggest changes.
Number five, engage with your elected officials, whether at the local, state, or federal level, tell your elected officials what you believe in and what you want them to support as your elected representative. And six, make a personal change and then go talk about it. Show others how possible it is to change. You get to be the light and the leader for somebody else by making that change and showing them it's possible. And I would add, seventh, if this conversation inspired you,
Please consider supporting Stories Sustain Us. You can help by liking this episode, subscribing to the show, sharing it with family and friends, and leaving me a comment about Resonated with You. Your feedback really does help the show grow. And now, there's also a new way to support the show. If you'd like to contribute financially to help cover the costs of producing and promoting Stories Sustain Us, please visit StoriesSustainUs.com and click on the support page.
Any contribution, big or small, is deeply appreciated and helps keep bringing these powerful stories to a wider audience. I'm sincerely thankful for all the support I've received during this first year. It's been an amazing journey and I'm excited for what's ahead in year two. We've got some incredible guests coming up and I hope you'll continue to join me as we explore the many ways people are making a difference around the world. And speaking of who's coming up next on the show.
be sure to tune in on July 15th when I'll be talking with one of the co-founders of Climate Karen. This creative climate campaign uses humor and satire to expose corporate greenwashing and call out climate hypocrisy in a bold, entertaining, and empowering way. It also, very importantly, funds different climate solutions to help scale carbon dioxide removal. If you've ever wondered how bold comedy can shift the conversation on climate,
and how you can help expand carbon dioxide removal. This is the episode for you. Catch the next episode of Stories Sustain Us on July 15th at StoriesSustainUs.com, wherever you listen to podcasts and on YouTube. Thanks again for being here today. Keep making the world a better place. Until next time, I'm Steven Schauer. Please take care of yourself and each other. Take care.