069: Real Masculinity vs. Toxic Masculinity | How to Be a Real Man in Today’s World

In this episode of Next Third, Best Third, I sit down with my friend Jonathan Suber to talk about what it truly means to be a man. We dive deep into the concept of real manhood—not just the cultural idea of masculinity, which is often misunderstood or labeled as toxic, but the essence of who men were created to be. We explore how manhood involves stepping into responsibility, facing conflict, and learning to create order from chaos. This is a conversation that goes back to the origins of man, exploring Adam’s creation, the purpose of maleness, and what it means to truly carry the seed of God’s creativity.

I share personal stories of my own journey through conflict, people-pleasing, and the struggles that come with learning to embrace my own manhood. From my experiences as a son and a father, to mentoring men and guiding my children, I reflect on how embracing conflict, conviction, and authenticity has transformed my life. Men are designed to pioneer, to explore, and to rise into their God-given purpose—and we talk about how modern culture can sometimes suppress that drive.

By the end of this episode, you’ll understand why every man needs men in his life, how brokenness can become authority, and why sonship and fatherhood are central to living an authentic life. Whether you’re looking to strengthen your identity as a son, embrace your role as a father, or simply understand the real essence of manhood, this episode is packed with practical insight, encouragement, and bold truth to help you live the next third of your life as your best third.

Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction & Purpose of the Episode
00:41 - Defining Real Manhood vs. Toxic Masculinity
01:44 - Manhood: Created to Bring Order from Chaos
03:13 - The Role of a True Man: Protecting, Providing, and Modeling
05:13 - Observations of Little Boys and the Natural Drive to Fix
07:05 - Avoiding Conflict: The Cultural Suppression of Men
12:03 - People-Pleasing, Conflict, and the Path to Authentic Manhood
16:08 - Sonship & Fatherhood: Repairing and Embracing Relationships
26:02 - Modern Culture, Suppression, and the Void in Men’s Lives
36:26 - The Mess Becomes the Message: Mentoring Through Experience

Welcome to Next Third Best Third! Join us for the inaugural episode of the Next Third Best Third podcast! Host David Fenwick, founder, author, and life coach, introduces the mission to inspire men over 40 to thrive in the next stage of life. Discover how to conquer life's challenges across physical, mental, relational, spiritual, and emotional dimensions. In this episode, David shares insights on:

- Physical Health: Strategies for maintaining fitness and vitality as you age.
- Mental Resilience: Techniques to stay mentally sharp and manage stress.
- Relational Growth: Building and nurturing meaningful relationships.
- Spiritual Fulfillment: Finding purpose and deeper spiritual connections.
- Emotional Well-being: Managing emotions and fostering a positive outlook.

Don't miss out on this journey towards making the next third of your life the best third!

Website: (https://www.nextthirdbestthird.com/)

Transcript

0:03
Hey, welcome back to Next Third, Best Third. I'm David Fenwick, the founder and the host, and I'm joined in studio
0:09
again by my friend Jonathan Suber. Hey guys, Jonathan, welcome. So great to have you here.
0:14
Today, what we're going to do is we're going to discuss and kind of dig deep
0:20
into what manhood is, real manhood. I don't like the word masculinity. Oh, wow. uh uh that's been kind of
0:26
hijacked, you know, with toxic masculinity and all these things. It always has toxic in front of it. Yeah. Yeah. So, but but but manhood, I
0:33
think, is is is so much more it's layered. It's it's who we were created to be. So, so buckle up.
0:41
Here we go. Jonathan, let's go. Well, I think you when you introduced me before, you know, you made the mistake of saying I'm a pastor. So, you know,
0:48
I'm a church guy and all that stuff. So, immediately my my worldview flows into that. So when you when you say man I
0:55
think Adam I think the original term when God created man he created male and
1:02
female created he them. So I can't think of man without thinking about male and
1:07
thinking the original about Adam or Adam. But I think what's amazing about Adam if you look at the Genesis story
1:14
and most world religions have their own origin story that include the garden or some avenue of the garden. I spent years
1:20
in India, you know, studying in in different areas and they have their own garden story because we know the Hebraic
1:26
story comes from the Torah and then even Islam has that same. So they all kind of have that same story. So if you look at
1:32
that origin of man, not mankind, but manhood, right, maleness because Eve
1:39
comes from man. So man is created in the image of God. But let's just take a
1:44
thought here and this is controversial. Have you ever thought of that God created Adam from the dust of the
1:50
ground? Yes. What about the dust of the ground? What is dust?
1:55
It's decayed decayed remnants of a living organism
2:01
that has taken enough time to create dust and dirt. So, we don't know how
2:06
long the earth actually had existed by the time God created Adam. Okay?
2:12
As far as actual time, right? We know there had been enough time for there to be dust and for there to be dirt because
2:18
the actual word there dirt, that's what it means. It's decayed living organisms that have had enough time to break down
2:25
into dust. So when God got ready to make something in his image, he took that which was already decaying, formed it in
2:33
his image and breathed into that image and it become a living soul, a living
2:38
nephesh. So to me a ma the origin of a man a male is the essence of someone
2:46
created in the image of God that was formed to take chaos and have the living
2:53
creative breath within them to create things from themselves. The man carries
2:58
the seed. Why? That's intentional because he is representing the image of God. So ma true manhood is a person who
3:07
has matured to the point that can take chaos and create out of chaos
3:13
and that's manhood. Wow. So a true man solves problems. A true man will fight for their nation. A true
3:20
man will defend their wife and their loved ones. A true man will be an example and work 13, 14 hours a day so
3:26
his son's watching him. Why? Because dad is going to take this chaos and make a way out of this chaos because that's how
3:34
I was created. That's so good. Eve was created completely different. Yes. And so that's the difference and the
3:40
distinction between male and female created he them. If you have a Christian worldview, and I know many people don't,
3:47
but from a Christian worldview, Eve comes from Adam. Everything that will
3:52
fulfill and bless and literally propel a woman to her fullest potential comes
3:59
from a man that understands I was created to turn hate her chaos into
4:05
safety. That's so good. And this is this is so important because right now with all the struggles in in society and culture
4:11
today about what what a man is, what the role of a man and things like this, but
4:16
we're not talking about a man lording over a woman. We're not talking about a man being It's never the case.
4:23
It's the equipping and the empowering and the releasing of her and her full potential. That's right.
4:29
Releasing her into her full potential. But if if we know anything about the Genesis story because I always love to
4:34
go back to origin. Eve would not have had the issue because everybody wants to blame Eve on the forbidden fruit. Adam
4:41
had been called to dress and to keep the garden. If Adam was doing his job, she would have never met the serpent.
4:47
Right? And so the essence of manhood is for me to create such a safety and a place that my loved ones, male or
4:55
female, that my loved ones are so protected and so provided for that they
5:00
don't ever deal with that because in me is the ability to create good things,
5:05
God things out of that. And so when you talk about the essence of of man or malehood, I think it goes back to that a
5:13
true man feels the drive to fix the chaos around them
5:18
from the time they're um little boys. I've seen I've seen uh you know I have grandsons, you have grandchildren. We
5:24
have uh I watch these little kids. It's amazing to me in the day of all the technology and sitting around if you
5:30
really turn that off and let them go outside what what do most little boys want to do? They're either going to fix
5:35
something or they're going to do sport. They're going to pick up and play a ball something. That's competition that that they're
5:42
pushing themselves kind of playing against themselves. That's that natural thing in a man to stretch themselves or
5:48
I'm what are you doing? Well, I'm working on the car or I'm fixing my bicycle. They're just sitting there with a stick or whatever. They're trying to
5:54
fix something. So, true manhood was literally, I believe, created to fix
6:00
things. Yes. Yes. and and and to form to form creation out of they were created. The
6:06
breath of God comes in. Now, one thing Levitical I don't want to get into this because people think, "Oh my god, he's"
6:11
But one of the things I love about Levitical studies and our Jewish friends is they honestly believe that there is
6:17
no way that Adam could have been a living soul without breath because Leviticus says that life is in the blood.
6:22
So they teach and my African pastors teach this. They teach it this doctrine that the breath of Elohim had to become
6:28
the blood of Adam. Wow. in order for him to be a living soul, God's breath became the blood. And
6:35
that's why the whole sin issue of ingested fruit, whatever the fruit was in the bloodstream, the whole issue of
6:41
Calvary and the blood of Jesus, the spotless lamb of God, why it's such a big deal because it's all about the
6:47
blood. That's so good. And so if if Adam literally was created out of the
6:53
remnants of chaos and decayed living organisms and yet God said that that I
6:59
just want to speak to somebody today, you're a man. You say, "You don't understand. My entire life is turned upside down." That's because you're a
7:05
man and God has formed man to create good things out of chaos. So so many men
7:13
that that we deal with and especially in my ministry as in my platform
7:19
men are trying to either avoid the struggle,
7:24
avoid the chaos, avoid the conflict, the conflict. You know, this is a big thing with with men in in in our culture today is this
7:32
avoidance culture. That's you know, we talk about all these I see an avoidance culture where men get complacent.
7:38
Men don't want to deal with the chaos. They want they want it to go away. They you know want to
7:43
wish it away. They want to pretend it's not there. That's why men medicate their pain. Self-medicate, suppress it, alienate it.
7:50
And then we have a culture that sometimes when a a man has an opinion that just because a man has an opinion
7:57
means they're aggressive. Yes. And I think that that's we're in a situation we have to deal with that.
8:03
That's the elephant in the room sometimes. We have to talk about that if you're a man, you will have very strong opinions.
8:08
That's right. And it's not hate or aggression to disagree. There's a difference. And and and and this week
8:14
and the last couple of weeks, something we're dealing with in the church world and even counseling is understanding the
8:20
difference between discord and disagreement. That's right. There's a huge difference psychologically and biblically between
8:27
discord and division and disagreement. Because you and I, we can disagree and
8:32
still be great friends. Yes. But in today's culture, it's almost like you have to have uniformality
8:38
instead of of unity because unity is we you can't have true unity unless we disagree.
8:43
That's right. And choose to be together based on that. Absolutely. So, as a man, I think realizing that it
8:50
is not wrong. That is really a lie. It's a falsehood that we believe. Lies we believe.
8:55
Um it's a falsehood to think that you don't have an opinion and that you can't fight for what you think is true.
9:01
Because I think men are born and created to fight for what we believe in. We're to work, to labor, to sweat, to defend.
9:09
That's just in our nature as men. Again, go back to little boys, watch them play, whatever. So, I think when we have
9:15
convinced ourselves as a culture, men can't fight. And when I say fight, I'm not talking
9:21
physically. Defend what you believe in. Men can't defend their convictions. So, if I can't defend my convictions, what's
9:27
the use of having a conviction? And then when I get to the point of raising a generation that aren't taught
9:34
to have convictions because convictions lead to conflict. Yes. So in order to stop having conflict, we
9:40
won't discuss convictions. And so when we take conviction out of the equation of a male, you're really
9:47
taking out part of the reason he exists. Yes. This is this is so strong. You
9:52
know, when you said that you and I could, you know, have disagreements and we will, right? Yeah. Sure. real relationship as you get
10:00
closer to somebody automatically demands conflict. It demands conflict, you know,
10:06
and here we are trying to avoid conflict, but it actually demands conflict because conflict is how we
10:12
grow. Well, iron sharpens iron, but it also causes sparks to fly. That's right. I mean, everybody wants to quote that,
10:17
but nobody wants to talk about the sparks. That's right. If we're really going to be great friends together, we're going to have some sparks that fly. But we choose our
10:24
relationship. Yeah. We choose. So, that's unity. and and I I you know I have a lot of my friends what's funny
10:31
most of my close friends are not Caucasian my best friend is African-American I have other my African
10:37
father is African in West Africa Pastor Yamky and different people that help raise me and mold me and whatever so I'm
10:42
with people that are very diverse yes and we oh Lord have mercy if you listen to us you think we hate one another cuz
10:49
we will go at it we'll raise our voice and then we'll just bust out laughing if I can make one of them mad or they can
10:54
make me mad and really see that I'm getting like ticked off. They'll just fall on the floor. They think it's the funniest thing because we have chosen
11:01
relationship over that. So, we're if you see us, we're walking in unity, but that's not
11:06
necessarily walking in agreement. That's right. And and I it goes back to conviction. I wonder if this is something we're
11:12
dealing with in our culture. Is it possible that some of us feel emotionally neutered
11:18
because we have not been allowed to do what God created us to to create. You
11:24
know the males who carries the sperm carries the seed. Is it possible that we are not carrying things that we uniquely
11:31
could carry because it would demand conflict. And so since conflict is wrong, I refuse to have conflict. And so
11:39
that cuts off my creativity. So I'm literally living in a space where there's nothing flowing out of me. So
11:46
then it becomes like the dead sea. And then I start gaining weight. I get sluggish. I get negative. Right.
11:51
Um I begin to lose the essence of my maleness in that fact of that I'm not
11:57
being what God created me to be. Yeah. I um I mentioned to you something a conversation I had with one of my
12:03
daughters, but I grew up in a in a family where I wasn't taught how to have
12:09
healthy conflict. I was the baby of the family on on top of it. And so I was always the entertainer. I was always the
12:15
one to make everyone laugh. I was, you know, gloss things over. I wanted people to like me. And I spent years with this
12:21
attitude of people pleasing. You know, man, me too. You're preaching to me now. But the problem was looking back at it,
12:28
what I really was doing is I was manipulating. Yes. You were protecting yourself more than protecting myself and manipulating the
12:35
situation for my best interest. I was I mean it was like the perversion of creativity. It was the perversion of of
12:42
building, right? Yeah. And um so when I finally started to late in life really
12:47
come to terms with conflict, I look back now and I'm like going, "Man, I wish,
12:53
wow, I would have known these things before." I uh I have a a friend of mine who's
12:59
been on several times and he and his wife uh do marriage conferences together. Their whole thing is teaching couples
13:05
how to conflict in a healthy way. Yeah. Right. And I love it. I've learned so much from him and he's 20 years younger
13:11
than me, you know, and I'm like, this is such wisdom because because again, men
13:16
who emasculate themselves by avoiding conflict, by by not being able to have
13:23
honest disagreement, I mean, we are setting ourselves up. Our families are going to fail because of
13:29
that. Our societyy's going to fail because of that. But not just in our family and conflict, but is have we created a culture that's
13:35
emasculated the male? Not just on a sexual side but on this side of creativity, right? If if conflict is wrong,
13:42
if conflict is the big no no. If you disagree with me, you hate me. If conflicted and if men were created
13:48
for conflict, Yeah. then we have then it's a huge issue. And when you you know years ago on a staff
13:55
uh I was coming in do some consulting on a on a large church staff and someone had given me a book and I taught a few
14:00
sessions from it on creative conflict. M it was literally fun ways and we took this whole staff through the things and
14:06
it was fun ways to do conflict and in that I realized I was a people in the middle of teaching someone else I
14:13
realized that I had spent most of my career was creating safe places for myself
14:19
because in that people pleasing in that area because I had ran from conflict and to be able to embrace it in a fun
14:26
way and I would love to know that couple you got to hook me up because uh that's another thing though when it comes to
14:31
manhood That just while ago hit me. If you think of a of a male or a man, most
14:37
men Well, all men are sons. Yes. Okay. Even if you're not a father. That's right. But all men are sons. So the essence of
14:45
manhood really is son and father, which flows into identity.
14:50
And when you look at there are some men who are listening today who did not have
14:56
perfect childhoods. They did not have situations that other people would say,
15:01
you know, well, I had a perfect childhood or whatever, you know, I I was raped by a man that weighed over 300 pounds when I was seven years old. Yeah.
15:07
So, even though I had great parents, they weren't able to protect me from that situation. It was a family member.
15:13
And I have so many stories I could tell in some of that and things that affected my life in different areas. But I look
15:19
back on I couldn't blame and thankfully I wasn't I never did blame my mom and dad for that because it was so separated
15:25
from them. But yet my father blamed himself as a man because he did not
15:31
protect me the way that he should or felt he should have. I don't know if there's anything he could have done, but
15:36
it meant it began to bother him as a man. So I've used that to think about, okay, today let's look at sunship and
15:43
let's look at fatherhood. So you have people that didn't have great childhoods or you may have people that are not
15:49
actual fathers, but they're men of a certain age. I believe that every man of a certain age has a desire to be a
15:57
mentor, a coach, or a friend, uh, an example. Even if you don't have natural
16:02
sons, any man has this desire to show someone else what they've learned. So,
16:08
if we lean into that, so what should I do to be a man? Okay, what is my relationship as a son? So, we go back
16:15
and revisit that. What happened to me as a son? Was there something broken? Was there a breach there? So, I begin to
16:20
repair the path of my sunship. And then as I'm repairing that, then I look at, okay, who am I fathering? Is it
16:27
my natural children? And where this kind of hit me is years ago, my father died when he was only 59. So, that's a year
16:34
away for me. So, that's kind of scary. But he uh 59, missionary for 40 years,
16:40
just culture and tropics and all of that. Didn't really take good care. No one was teaching him what you're
16:45
teaching guys now. He just didn't take care of himself. Um, and so I was at a
16:50
camp and and and I was with my mentor who was like in his 80s at the time at
16:55
this deer camp. And so I didn't get to hunt for like three days. I was taking care of him and I was helping cook. I
17:02
was cleaning the table because he was supposed to be the host and whatever. So one some of the people in the camp mistook me and thought that I was like
17:09
the camp help. Like somebody come up and said, "How long have you been working for Bishop so- and so?" I kind of laughed and I said, "Well, I actually
17:14
paid to be on this hunt the same as some of you guys. This is one of these huge hunts, you know, and um and they looked
17:21
at me and I said, "But I'm with Bishop, my mentor, and some help didn't show up, so I'm making sure he's okay." So, I
17:27
just did that. So, about the fourth day, there was a pastor, if I drop names today, he's very well known that internationally. He come up to me and
17:34
and didn't know me with small talking. He said, "Um, you had a great dad,
17:39
didn't you?" And I'm like, "I did? What do you mean?" And he didn't know. I said, "My dad's passed." Whatever. And
17:46
he's like, "He must have been an incredible dad." And we talked. And I was like, "He's a great dad. What do you mean?" He said, "Because you know how to
17:51
be a son." Wow. And I said, "Sir," he said, "I've watched you." And and it was his his son
17:56
had told him that. He said, "I've watched you for three days." He said, "I know who you are. I know what size church you travel that you pastor. I
18:03
know the ranks that you travel in." And he said, 'Ive watched how you have served and literally acted like an
18:10
employee or a servant for the last three days, serving them at the table, helping cook the food, clean up, wash, I
18:15
stripped their beds, I was washing their sheets, you these go, these guys are bringing in these huge racks and I'm still at the camp, you know. And he
18:21
said, he said, I've wait, man, it just did something to me that the essence of my manhood to realize
18:27
that I was still honoring my father and that I was a good son. Yeah. and that I had a good father. It
18:35
did something to me as a man to realize I'm a good son.
18:41
Wow. Sunship is such a key. Um the gentleman I was telling you about he and his wife uh he he also uh was we did an
18:48
episode about sunship and about what he was saying is he had to learn that he needed to honor
18:55
his father despite the fact that his father didn't deserve it the way he treated him
19:01
because he said he had to get to the point where he could honor his father in the midst of his father's failures and
19:07
mistakes to be able to glean off of him any of the good. Again, we go back to agreement. Yes.
19:12
He didn't have to agree with his father's actions in order to obey a biblical command to honor,
19:18
right? Because honor is not a feeling. Again, it goes back to it's an action. It's an action. My dad had that same testimony.
19:24
You his dad died when he was 14. And I've seen him weep and say, "If God hadn't taken my dad, I probably would
19:29
have killed him." Yeah. Because the things that his dad did was atrocious. Just you you name it. It was
19:35
terrible. But choosing to forgive is a valuable key. My grandmother, I
19:40
would have never heard a word. She never remarried. She lived to be in her 90s. One of the most godly women I've ever met. I would have never known that her
19:46
husband was kind of the what we'd say in modern language, the dog that he was, right?
19:52
I would have never known if it was up to her, the way she spoke of him, the way she honored him, the way she chose to
19:58
forgive and to look at the good things. If my dad hadn't told me the truth the older I got, I would have never heard it from
20:03
her. Yeah. And that's that's honor because love covers, not covers up.
20:08
It's so good. But I think going back to fatherhood in in in the essence of man, I really want to just lean into this is
20:15
you really can't be a man if you don't realize your worth as a son and then how
20:21
that that propels you into this next season of your life where we are right now and many may be watching this
20:27
because we both have a choice and it's that different spectrum. Do you need to focus more on your sunship in this issue
20:32
situation and your natural relationships are there's people that have been orphaned? They've been abandoned. Some
20:38
people are illegitimate. So how to operate as a son in that level and then sometimes that's where we get
20:43
adopted and we have men like I mentioned Bishop Tenny in the last one. But when I came home from Africa without my dad, I was
20:50
so grateful to have men that took me in. Yes. To be mentored, to be fathered. But then there's a season we're at right now to
20:56
where we're now the fathers. When it dawns on me at our church that many of the people that come, yes, I'm their
21:03
pastor, but most of them call me pops. They'll call me pastor. Most of our church now
21:08
call me pops. Yeah. And then I realized a lot of them the way I don't need to be cool. I don't need to be hip.
21:14
They just need somebody that's faithful and has integrity that'll tell them the truth and just hold the You don't have to be
21:20
anything sexy. No, this don't have to be some big rocket science if guys are listening here. Just be faithful as a father.
21:28
It's interesting uh Jonathan because I'm on staff at a church here, right? And uh
21:33
I've been a senior pastor. I've done all sorts of traveling and speaking, but at this season of my life, my role at the
21:40
church, I'm not the senior leader. My role at the church is to be a father. That's my entire really pos. I mean, I
21:47
do other things, but but if you asked anybody in our church, you know, what is David? And he he's he's a father of the
21:52
house. Wow. But I have to tell you, that's incredible. Um
21:57
and and I value that, right? It means so much to me. It moves me deeply. Um, but I I've become the father because I
22:05
finally got to the place where I started to understand conflict and manhood because you said you were raped at
22:12
seven. I was sexually abused by a priest multiple times when I was like 11, right? That period.
22:17
And so for me, I didn't blame my parents, but I had this lie attached saying that I was not worth protecting.
22:24
So that haunted me and all sorts of stuff got attached to that. So as I go through and so being a people pleaser
22:30
and avoiding conflict, part of the reason that I avoided conflict is because I was suppressing this anger.
22:36
And the longer I suppressed the anger, the more fearful I got, be honest with you, that it would be a rage that would
22:43
be uncontrolled. So I never wanted conflict. That was the motivation for me to not have conflict.
22:49
So when my wife left and we had all this thing and my family was just de devastated seven, eight years ago, um I
22:56
was I I was like going what am I going to do you know and believe it or not I started taking acting classes and in
23:03
these acting classes um we were challenged the their whole thing is to live truthfully in an imaginary
23:10
circumstance. So in this acting classes I was they they called me out. He says David you're
23:15
not being truthful. I was like, "You should be angry." And I was like, "I can't."
23:21
So finally I decided to explore that and explore this emotion called anger. And
23:26
in one of the exercises in our class, it came out and it came out face to face with
23:32
another man almost to blows. And we were just doing an acting exercise and I scre I let
23:39
everything out. And I mean it was by the time of they they called the the scene, everyone was clapping and cheering and
23:45
it was this amazing thing and I'm just emotionally a mess. Yeah. I was driving home that night 11:00 at
23:51
night down I35 and all of a sudden I thought to myself, I like myself
23:58
because I was able to be angry and let it all out for the first time in my
24:03
life. Yeah. Well, since then, I have really stepped into this role that you're
24:08
talking about where I can tell any man the truth and I'm not afraid of his response. Yeah. It's a powerful thing because that
24:16
makes me a better father. Well, and it's this phrase, did it make you feel like a man?
24:21
Yeah. See? Yeah. You you've literally embraced your manhood. That that doesn't mean that that females
24:27
don't have anger and rage and whatever. But this whole conflict thing that man was literally designed. Yes. Female was
24:34
designed to nurture and protect. Man was designed for conflict and exploration, pioneering. Yes. That's why go into the
24:41
wilderness for years or whatever. When I read these stories of pioneers and even pioneer preachers and missionaries that
24:47
left their wives and kids for years with that primal drive, remained faithful to God, remained faithful to their family,
24:53
but felt that they were doing their family the greatest service they could to explore even though it demanded great
24:59
sacrifice. That's real men. We talk about it. You know, a lot of times real men, you want to watch John Wayne. Why
25:05
do we like watching John Wayne? Because it reminds us of that part of man. It's speaking to
25:10
Yeah. It's speaking to that part of that. So, so if again, so I I think we're we're on to something today and
25:16
and I would love to have a psychiatrist or somebody here with us that could just help us understand is it possible that
25:22
in Western culture in the last say 30 to 40 years, is it possible since we have
25:28
focused particularly on men that men cannot say their truth and they cannot
25:35
say facts as they see it without being seen as hate speech or conflict or
25:40
whatever. that we have neutered them from conflict which has taken away their desire to be creative. Right?
25:46
And so you have men who have been told you can't act like a man. So as they
25:52
suppress this to please others, it then causes them to have their own issues and there's all these emotional
25:57
issues and health issues that are going on because I don't think we've embraced our malness.
26:02
So would you say because of this our culture now has a void and it's a void because man is not being fulfilled.
26:10
Well, now what's funny now? Our culture, even secular culture, is asking for that
26:16
back. Yes. They missed the void. They want protecting. They want creativity. It's
26:21
it's almost like there's a flip-flop now. Then then you could have we could see the rise of toxic masculinity. That
26:27
phrase you we could see the rise of that taking over because real masculinity has been so suppressed. So if the authentic
26:34
doesn't come out, if we don't rise to the top and that's too because I have five daughters and so the term toxic
26:40
masculinity has been well discussed in my family, you know, and because I have
26:46
five daughters, I recognize and I and I and I war against that toxic masculinity. But we can't
26:53
fight it properly unless authentic manhood Yeah. rises to but doesn't even whether they would
26:58
agree or disagree inside their subconscious don't you see their attraction toward a real man
27:03
I think in their very disgust about toxic masculinity reveals their desire for a real man authentic I know I don't
27:09
I have a daughter she's in New York beautiful single u 27 years old but that's the thing with her a couple years
27:16
ago or no probably this year situ and she literally just and she man if I would tell socially we're on opposite
27:22
sides of the fence you know if I stand for this she stands for this I mean we're as opposite it, but yet we're almost the same person as far as
27:28
personality. And one day she's like, "Are there any real men left?" And
27:33
that's exactly what she said in the context of a certain thing. And then me and her brother just crack up cuz like
27:40
here we are. You know, we're we're every time we're talking, it's like we're just clashing, but yet it's like, "Yeah, here
27:46
we are." Yeah. And that I wonder if society's asking that. Are there really any real men
27:51
left? Men of character, integrity, that will defend their truth, but defend your right to believe your truth. I'll def I
27:58
will defend your right to disagree with me. Yeah. And I believe that's a real man.
28:03
Yeah. We need men who are fearless, you know, and and it's, you know, we we
28:12
fear this whole idea of fear. What are we afraid of? Yeah. What are you? You know that's the question.
28:17
I think in in in our modern context though because you study history I don't think there's a way but modern say let's
28:23
say the last 50 maybe a hundred years and now with social media I think it's worth can the cancel culture has
28:29
revealed that our greatest fear is rejection. There it is. So if what if we have
28:35
created a culture where rejection is our greatest fear, not death, not imprisonment, but actual someone
28:42
else's opinion of you is more important than your desire to do right. Yeah,
28:47
that's scary. It's very scary because then you then you truly have emasculated
28:53
a culture that entire culture and that goes either male or female in this area in our culture. So if we are if if
28:59
rejection is the greatest sin then we force ourselves to live a lie
29:06
and we live these lies just what you're saying in acting we literally are living a part that is really not who we are but
29:12
in order to keep the peace that's why you know biblically there's such a difference and I'm doing a series on the biatitudes right now there's such a huge
29:19
difference between peacemaking and peacekeeping. Yeah. Yeah. And we confuse it. Yeah. uh when one of my daughters uh was
29:27
born um I she was born at home and I remember holding her and prophesying over her that she would be a peacemaker.
29:34
Yeah. Blessed to be the peacemaker makers. And um watching her over these years and
29:39
especially now she's getting her masters of divinity. She's incredible. Her life story, the way she has come and really
29:46
committed herself to her faith. But she was just up in um a conference and it
29:51
was Christians for Palestine. Okay. And so, you know, some people I've told that to and they're like, "What's that mean?" No, no. She She's fearless.
29:59
Yeah. She wants to see the kingdom of God expand through the earth and and she's
30:05
just fearless. And I'm like going, "Man, I'm so proud of her." But she's a peacemaker. She's a peacemaker, not a peacekeeper.
30:11
Because to make peace, sometimes you have to make war. That's right. You got to stand and you have to stand for something and
30:17
you you have to put your your values on the line. Yes. And it's a huge difference. That's right. And and that's what we
30:23
need. Here's my daughter doing that. That's what we need a men to do. The men to do. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool though.
30:28
Yeah, it is cool. I may need to meet her, get in contact with her because that sounds like a great conference. Yeah. Yeah. No, she's you you and
30:34
she's on the cutting edge of that. She is on the cutting edge. You know, she's great. So, but I I think we I I think there's
30:40
that part of there's a phrase that that when you look we laugh while I go about John Wayne, but the whole radical side
30:46
of a man. Men men are born to be pioneers. Yeah. and to be radical, to
30:51
stand alone, to create something. I don't think we were ever meant just to hide in a dark room and play on our
30:56
phones. No. No. And this is what we're doing. Men are isolating. They're pulling back.
31:02
And that's what happens when you don't have authentic ma manhood, right? If you're not walking in that, you're going
31:08
to medicate. You're going to isolate. You're going to um pull away from, you know, and get complacent.
31:14
Well, I appreciate your ministry is is you're living this truth. Men need men. Yeah. You read the statistics now. Just
31:21
remove the B. Move, remove Christianity. Just look at the statistics of what being fatherless or orphaned or having
31:28
no male strong relative, no uncle, no grandfather, whatever, does to a young boy by the time they're 15.
31:34
Yeah. The statistics that are out there, you can you can chat GBT at whatever. It's
31:39
mindblowing of of the influence that men have on men. So, what does that
31:45
mean? That means that we need to literally every day fight whatever we
31:50
have to do to be connected to that iron sharpened iron that I'm connected to a man this morning on the way over. One of
31:57
my I have two accountability partners. One's in Pennsylvania. He's a long way away, but we we we zoom, we FaceTime, we
32:03
call text him this morning. I'm going do a podcast. He's the guy that can tell me no. He can get in my business. But just
32:10
making that intentional of I needed a man to know I'm hey I'm going to go be on this thing. Pray for me, cover me,
32:17
whatever. And yeah, I have my wife. Yeah, I have other people. But there was something about having a a strong man
32:24
in my life. I mean, this guy's like you what you you think he lived in the gym. He's that type guy. He challenges
32:30
me every day on to do better. But just to to know, okay, he's got my back today. You're going to do this. Kind of
32:36
that coach thing. And here I'm 58 years old, but I need that. Absolutely. I need it at my age.
32:41
And so we we all people that are watching today, everyone needs it. So men need men.
32:46
It's interesting because uh I may have shared it earlier. I I know I talked to you off camerara about this, but when we
32:52
started this, we were really targeting an older guy, but the followers are trending way
32:58
younger men in their early 30s and in their 40s. And what they're doing is they're craving
33:03
fathers. They're craving mentors. They're craving to be challenged. They're craving to say, "Hey, I I don't
33:10
know what I need, but I need something." Tell me if this is true. What what I'm seeing, everything you said is true, but
33:17
they're not craving perfect fathers. They're willing to learn from our mistakes. They're like, "Just tell me the truth. Yeah.
33:23
Help me not make the same mistakes you made. You don't have to be perfect. Tell me what happened and help me not to do
33:29
that." Yeah. So, that takes such pressure off guys if you say, "Well, I have nothing to mentor. I have nothing to coach. I
33:34
really don't have success. What if you lived through some things? What are some things you've gone through as a testimony? Yeah. That that you that can
33:41
encourage them because life isn't perfect. No. And they need to hear our stories of brokenness. They need to hear
33:47
uh as we said in another podcast, you know, our our mess that has now become our message. We need we need to know
33:53
that it's okay to make mistakes. And I you're you're so right on, Jonathan, is is these guys don't want to
34:00
hear they don't want it to be sugarcoated. They want truth, right? They want real, you know, and uh um
34:06
because if you're listening and you feel I'm disqualified or I, you know, my life's too, you know, I don't have any
34:12
authority. I'm telling you, your brokenness, your struggles, your pains, the things you've gone through,
34:18
your your the just the mess you've made of your life. Doesn't disqualify you at all, but it uniquely qualifies you
34:24
because from that you have if you've gone through it and you've come on the other side, you now have authority over
34:30
that. Exactly. and you can speak and share that. And this is this is the stuff that
34:35
men need. Yeah. Whatever you've been delivered from, God gives you dominion over, right? And that's I that is so huge when it
34:41
comes to men. We had a guy several years ago. He wanted to meet with me. And so we met I thought it was going to be some deep theological discussion because the
34:47
guy's a business guy, young, you know, I just looked on the outside. Looks like he has everything together. Um and so we
34:54
sitting down, we're small talking and I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, whatever." He said, "Yeah, I want to ask you some questions." It's okay. He said, "I want
35:00
you to look me in the eye." And I was like, "Cool." I look you me in the eye. He said, 'You made a statement in a
35:05
sermon. And back then, I forget how many long it had been, 30 something years. My wife and I been married 38 years next month. He said, "Uh, you made a
35:12
statement that you were a virgin when you got married and that your wife's the only woman you ever knew." He said, "You
35:18
made a statement in the sermon." I said, "Yeah, I" He said, "Look me in the eyes.
35:23
Is that the truth?" and just look he said I want to look me in the eye and I was like yeah you know
35:30
I was I was shocked and he kind of teared up and he pushed a notebook and whatever he pushed that all away he said
35:36
I don't need to know that I need to know this how do I do that how do I live it like that found out his
35:42
story background brokenness whatever and he said I need you to show I need you to
35:48
live me number one and this is what this is what broke my heart he said I've never had a man tell me that he said I
35:55
don't know anybody body in my life. Yeah. That can tell me that. Yeah. And he said, "Is that even possible? And
36:01
you're saying it's possible, so help me." I got in the truck and cried because to me that was so simple.
36:07
Yeah. But yet you look at how much it affected him of just so so today you say, "I may
36:14
not be a father to somebody." You've got something that God has allowed you to do
36:19
faithfully or even if you failed in some areas, you have the testimony of God bringing you back from it. That's right.
36:26
That you can father somebody. So I I think every man because you said, "What's the essence of a man?" The
36:31
essence of a man, there's a part of the man that's always a little boy. So that sunship part of your
36:36
relationship with your mother and your father. And even if they're gone, if God can restore that, I've had people write letters to their
36:43
dead families. My dad had to do that. Like I said, his father passed, whatever, and how he had to reconcile.
36:48
Yeah. Um and got to where he could actually preach and teach how he was able as as an older man to forgive his father. Um
36:55
leaning into that area. And then every man has a little boy. But then every man
37:01
at the point of maturity has a potential to be a father, whether it's natural or whether it's adoptive.
37:06
That's right. And so being a man falls into that, your sunship and your fatherhood. So good. I have one son, but I have many
37:14
sons. Uhhuh. You know, absolutely. And I really don't know because I've
37:20
come to terms with so much of my life, even in my 60s, uh, and God has been so good to me.
37:27
Excuse me. God has been so so good to me that
37:35
I am embracing I'm Here's the greatest compliment I that I ever got.
37:41
Last January, I'm having coffee with one of my daughters. And my daughters are all beautiful, successful, amazing young
37:48
women. And she sat with me knowing has walked with me, seen me walk through this last eight years, seen everything
37:55
I've gone through. And she looked at me and she says, "Dad, I like this version of you better than any previous
38:01
version." Wow, Jonathan. I mean, what what more can you ask for? You know, wow.
38:07
Such a powerful thing. And that's my hope for the guys listening, right?
38:12
Embrace true manhood. The authentic you. The authentic you.
38:18
Be willing, not just willing, but being be intentional about conflict.
38:24
Be intentional. And who is the you? You know, Jeremiah, it always blows my mind that we quote that scripture um that
38:32
that he was known, I knew you before you were in your mother's womb. Mhm. And we quote that, but I don't think we
38:38
really understand what that really is trying to tell us is who is the you. Yes. That God knew that you've never met yet.
38:45
That's right. That's right. It's not this flesh. Who is the au who is the you? So trying to identify as a man, who is the unique
38:52
me? Yeah. Who is the unique you that God knew that I've never met yet? And when I meet that person, that's probably what happened to
38:58
your daughter. She's meeting that person that is the unique you. And if you can ever find because we all have, you know,
39:04
we have we have the facade. So we have the projected us. We have what we want people to see. We have who we think we
39:10
are. Then there's the real us. Yeah. And so embracing that, being bold enough to embrace that, the true you,
39:16
man, it's like it's we're called men are supposed to be pioneers, explorers. Why don't we pioneer and explore the real
39:23
us, the real you? Oh, man. That would be great. What is the real essence of your manhood? That's right. And it's not too late. No,
39:30
never too late. It's never too late. And in our men's gatherings, I'm always moved with guys in their 70s and 80s. We
39:35
have some guys in their 80s still help. I mean, they could play out work me, a couple of them. And to see in these settings of prayer
39:42
or devotion or whatever, to see the tears in their eyes and to see how they are still wanting to be a better man.
39:48
Yeah. Yeah. A stronger man, a more loving man. It just gets me. Yeah. We have gotten to become a very
39:54
good friend with a man who's 81 years old, right? He's he's a he's stalwart in
39:59
our men's ministry and everything. He and I talk every day. Every day. And it's fun because
40:06
we challenge each other, you know. But what I really admire about him is he's willing to be challenged.
40:12
Wow. He's not done yet. No. Still challenged. Yeah. Still dreaming. Yeah. Still hoping.
40:18
That's right. And and you know, men men are dreamers. Don't take away their hope. No. But I think when you the essence of
40:25
this podcast today, I think when we take away when we take away a man's right to
40:30
conflict, we somehow take away his creativity and that that causes him to want to be a
40:36
pioneer. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's so good, man. We could talk about this. We'll have to do more of
40:41
these. So anyway, Jonathan, thank you y'all. You're welcome. This is great. I hope you're getting
40:47
this. Um do me a favor. If you'd subscribe, if you'd like, if you'd share
40:52
this, comment. I mean, any interaction with us really helps us grow this channel because we're intentional about
41:00
reaching into men's lives, encouraging them, and and having you be really have the next third of your life, the very
41:06
best third of your life. So, we'll see you next time. Awesome.