Fantasy Explorations
Welcome to Fantasy Explorations, the place where to geek out about fantasy, in all of its forms.
This podcast is made by a fantasy lover, in books, in big and small screen, in games, in anime or comics or in art. There is something freeing about exploring this genre, magic, magical creatures, mythological creatures; and the best part about fantasy is that the limit is our own imagination!
I will work on two different concepts: the first is collections, where we explore a topic (a theme, trope, etc.) of fantasy finding books and series that cover this topic; the second is the reading journey through a specific book, trying to mimic reading vlogs into a podcast format!
Fantasy Explorations
Gardens of the Moon, a personal adventure
In this episode, we dive into 'Gardens of the Moon,' the first book in the Malazan Book of the Fallen series by Steven Erikson.
The discussion covers my personal connection to the book, its unique world-building, complex plot, and emotional depth.
We explore what makes this series to unique in fantasy, even today; we spend time with Erikson's words and we dive into a spoiler free and a spoiler section, both characterized by a structure of: world building, plot and emotions.
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It first explains why it's called Malazan Book of the Fallen as a series, but it also is a warning as to how history repeats itself.
Intro
Welcome to Fantasy Explorations, the place where to geek out about fantasy. I'm your host, Solseit, and I'm in love with fantasy, in all of its forms. I haven't been exposed to fantasy for most of my life, and I want to keep learning about this genre, so this is the adventure we're on.
Intro to the episode
In today's episode we will review Gardens of the Moon by Steven Erikson, which is book one in the Malazan Book of the Fallen series. Gardens of the Moon might be my most cherished fantasy book to date, and I have a lot of personal connections to it. There is an emotional attachment, which is also connected to the fact, and which is more relevant for everybody else, that it was the first time that I experienced a fantasy book that spoke to me own so many different levels and at the same time focused on world building. And it also inspired me to think deeper. And because I love the book so much, and in fact I checked on my stats and I've read it at least five times so far, but it took me a long time to determine how to structure the review, sharing all these ideas and thoughts in a digestible format. Now, I'm not sure if it is a digestible format for everybody, but I've decided that the structure of this episode will be extensive and unique at the same time. The first is I want to start with my why. Why did I think this book and the series overall are unique? I also wanted to share additional reflections before even starting with the book and finally then we get into the non-spoiler review first and the spoiler review and both of them will be structured with world-building, plot and emotions. Yes, I have not specifically included characters in this particular review and the reason for it is because I connected to the characters really through emotions. That is the lens through which I understand and I want to explore the characters. Last but not least, we're gonna end with a summary, a few last thoughts and, most importantly, a few more words from Erikson.
The adventure
So let's get comfortable, hydrate, and let's get started with this adventure.
My why
Two very creative co-creators and authors
So why do you think this series is unique? And this is a perspective that I developed over time, read after reread after reread. And I've essentially landed on two main reasons. The first one is that this world was developed by two creative people. Now the idea of co-creators and authors is not new. We experience this in other fantasy books, even more recent books, sci-fi books as well, and the two examples that come to mind are M.A. Carrick and S.A. Corey. This world, the Malazan world, was built by two very creative individuals, Steven Eriksson and Ian .C. Esslemond and the reason why I find their perspective more unique than other co-authors is the fact that they trusted each other's vision so much that each of them writes separately, writes different storylines, but they are so closely connected that it's obvious that there is a collaboration to develop this world that is beyond the superficial. The level of trust that this duo has is truly uncanny and I want to celebrate it for a second longer, the work is impressive. They share a joy of creation and that joy just jumps out of the pages and ultimately inspires me. On top of that, as a reader, I find that there is a lot of satisfaction in how this world was built. There is a lot of work in detailing everything about the world. There is no hesitation in introducing elements of the world, a character, a plot line. It is clear that this world, the characters and everything in between was developed in great detail and with love for it. As cruel and as bleak as this world is, and the characters and the impact on humanity, but there is a clear love for the material.
Gods are capricious
The other reason why I found this series unique to me is the fact that gods are capricious. Growing up, I spent a lot of time with Greek and Roman mythology. And while they overlap, there is a key difference between the two, which is drama. Greek mythology is significantly more dramatic than Roman mythology. I like to think that Greek mythology is partially a source of inspiration for the Malazan book of the Fallen and in general the Malazan world with the dramatic reactions and stories, especially in relation to what seems capricious behavior of gods. And if one has an eternity to think about it, a few years or a life sacrificed to accomplish these goals might not seem like much. And so it really feels like mythology, the Greek mythology that I grew up with is reflected in these books.
Preliminary thoughts on the book
Now on a few preliminary thoughts on Gardens of the Moon, and here I need to go to Erickon's preamble to the 2007 edition. The very first sentence he writes there, I find mind blowing and inspiring for life and he says: “There is no point in beginning something without ambition.”
And I think this is ultimately the briefest way to describe what this project is all about. This is a project that has ambition. This is a project that is vaster than life. And once again, I find this a very good tip as to how to live life, but this is neither here nor there.
More to the point, Erickon says still in this preamble: “Beginning with Gardens of the Moon, readers will either hate my stuff or love it. There is no in-between. Naturally, I'd rather everybody love it, but I understand why this will never be the case. These are not lazy books. You can't float through. You just can't. Even more problematic, the first novel begins halfway through a seeming marathon. You either hit the ground running and stay on your feet or your toes.”
In other words, there is a clear understanding of the complexity of what is being presented to the reader. And there is no apology about this. And I think it's, again, the concept of ambition here. I'm just going to throw you in the deep end of the pool and you need to find your own way to survive. There is no cuddling. There is no simplification. There is no cheats. You either get it or you don't. And I love this approach to the book. In fact, I love also in a few other nuggets, he essentially says that he's considered, and I'm paraphrasing obviously, but the way that I understand his thought is that he was thinking about simplifying or finding a preamble that could introduce the material to the readers so that they are not thrown in the deep end right away. And he eventually decided not to do it. And I also believe that Erickon is correct in feeling and believing that his book is going to be very, or his stories are going to be very polarizing. You will either love them or hate them. And I'm delighted to be in the camp of I truly love this story. I truly understand the vision or hope I understand the vision. I understand how deep these stories go. I truly find a lot of reflection moments for me. And that was part of the challenge also in this process.
This review
How do I review a book that I love that I read so often and that I love? And in reality, my reviews tend to follow my gut rather than a structured approach. What I can say is that this story gives me three things that I love in fantasy.
The first is world building, which refers to geography, but also politics, the society structure, magical elements of the story.
The second element is plot, the storylines. How do we get from point A to B to C and so on and so forth.
And last essential part for fantasy, in my opinion, are emotions, which is a term that I use to really talk about my emotional reaction, which most of the times comes out of attachment to the characters, to their journeys, but also in relation to their development, in relation to their relationships, their hardships, their challenges and opportunities. And so once again, the idea of this review, I'll probably introduce this more often as this structure resonates with me quite a bit. The spoiler free and the spoiler section will really be built in world building, plot and emotions.
Spoiler free review
So without any further ado, let's get in this spoiler free part of the review. And I need to start from something that it's obvious, but I've missed for so many years. I just recently looked at the printed edition that I own of Gardens of the Moon and I finally noticed that it says on the cover that it is a tale in the Malazan world. And I had a lightbulb moment. It's a confirmation of another aspect that makes this series unique. And you already know that there is at least two elements that make the story unique. But there is another reason why this series is unique in is that in the Malazan Book of the Fallen in particular, but it's also true for the Esslemont production, the stories seem to be less connected than what I ordinarily expect from other fantasy series. There is no linear progression to the story. Even if there is a gap, there tends to be some level of progression.
In this case, in the Malazan Book of the Fallen in particular, it's almost hopping. Yes, hopping is now a term that I can freely use ever since Sanderson introduced world hopping as a fantasy term. I keep hopping from one character to another from one plot line to another. And yet this, complete, deep-end scenario, and at the same time, the ability and the will to follow, it's part of the charm of the book and the series, if one is so inclined. And the storytelling approach does not detract from the overall experience. However, it is important to understand what you're getting into. And once again, the hopping from characters to storylines to new elements of the worldbuilding, it could be considered confusing, while others you will find a lot of satisfaction in this.
So in a spoiler free way, I would say that this is probably the vastest worldbuilding and fantasy that I have experienced so far. And please, the Cosmere fans out there, hold your horses. I still believe that the Malazan world to date is the largest that I've read and it's all condensed in one world. It is a layered world with gods, mortals and any other creature in between.
There are interests and objectives that collide and they are the spark for significant events and some of them have been in the making for millennia.
And for the plot, I already feel that calling it plot is a reductive statement. It does not do it justice. There are so many different plot lines that are intertwined in this story. And when you think you get the plot line of one character, something else happens. And most importantly, the decisions, the effect of decisions, actions and omissions of characters set a million ripple effects that lead to an infinite amount of changes in the direction of other characters' storylines.
As for emotions, there is a relatively simple way to summarize my reaction to Gardens of the Moon, which is this story and any other installment that I read so far is emotionally draining. In fact, so many things happen at all times. The characters are being put through the wringer and so my emotions. And if you think that Robin Hobb is the master of emotional manipulation, so is Erikson but in a very subtle way. I feel bruised every time that I finish a book and Gardens of the Moon is no exception to it, although it might be the least emotionally taxing of the series that I read to date. And for clarity, I read about 8 books out of 10 at this point.
And while we've completed the structured approach, there is one more thought that I want to share and I appreciate this tool whenever I see it used to expand wall building, or if it is used to introduce dope quotes to chapters in a mysterious and exciting way. And these are the quotes at the beginning of parts and/or chapters. And in particular, in Gardens of the Moon, they help enrich the wall building, giving us a lot more perspective into the world, the characters, and there is so much depth to it. I also think from a literary perspective, and I'm not great at that, but I find that also from a literary perspective, there is a lot of work being put into it.
And to finish the spoiler-free section, I think we need to go back to one of the first quotes from the book. And it first explains why it's called Malazan Book of the Fallen as a series, but it also is a warning as to how history repeats itself.
“Now these ashes have grown cold, we open the old book. These oil-stained pages recount the tales of the Fallen, a frayed empire, words without warmth. The hearth has ebbed, its gleam and life’s sparks are but memories against dimming eyes – what cast my mind, what hue my thoughts as I open the Book of the Fallen and breathe deep the scent of history? Listen, then, to these words carried on that breath. These tales are the tales of us all, again yet again. We are history relived and that is all, without end that is all.”
Erikson, Steven. Gardens Of The Moon: (Malazan Book Of The Fallen 1) (The Malazan Book Of The Fallen) (pp. xxv-xvi). Transworld. Kindle Edition.
And even just this preamble has so much to unpack. And we often find ourselves saying that history repeats itself. And I love how this is one of the encore points of this entire series. So with this said, we're going to move into the spoiler review.
So if you haven't read the book, if you're interested in preserving your own ideas about the story, please make sure to come back after you read the book, which will take you a little bit of time. And I'm hoping that this one-sided conversation has inspired you to pick the book and read it.
Spoiler review
Let's get our hands dirty with our spoiler review.
World building
Let's start with world building. And this is the crown jewel of this book and probably of the series overall. On a side and yet interesting note, at least I find it interesting, it seems that there is no map of this entire world and yet there are plenty of engaged and lovely fans who pieced it together. But I still find it very interesting that there is no official map of this particular world. And talking about the world, it is complex. It has so many different layers. We have the, let's say, geographical slash political element, which is the political element in particular is inside and outside the Malazan Empire, which is intertwined with military history of the various continents in this world, but also with the military aspects of this story.
There is magical element, so many different warrens and powers. Some are even an antithesis. Some of them are known, some of them are unknown, some of them are connected to gods and they not only have powers as gods, but they often are beings who are being worshipped. And the users of the warrens are worshippers of the gods. So there is a lot to unpack just right here.
And we have a lot of larger and smaller powers at play, with larger or smaller influences in and outside of the empire. We have the empire and then small realities and they all want to dominate or retain independence. And there are so many different personal needs and goals that will create challenges along the way.
And then there is the regular people, the ones who are victimized by the vast majority of the powers we described above. They are either victimized by conquest, war, or any other form of power. This is a brutal world, and the empire is probably the worst offender when it comes to brutality. As it employs, for example, systematic killings as a weapon, and it's a weapon that inspires fear, and there is regular decision during conquests by the Empire to kill, for example, all the nobles in certain cities to ensure that the Malazan Empire is the conquering force and that there's not going to be anybody opposing it. And this is an important detail that keeps coloring the morality and the humanity of certain individuals and their choices.
We also have gods and I in this spoiler free section, I made a comment to the fact that they really don't care about human life and they are ruthless. These gods, they are maybe even more so than the empire. They use, they influence, they interfere with regular people's lives and they use moral as pawns in their games. And that's the entire value that they give to human life. They are just pawns and they can be disposed off. I mentioned how there are so many different people, interests and goal.
So let's make it a little bit more tangible. We have the Tiste Andii, the first children of Mother Dark and their leader Anomander Rake. What is cool about them? They are human and dragons at the same time. And in my dragons episode, I really was tempted to include them as one of the more humanized depictions of dragons. I decided not to, but again, Tiste Andii, truly, truly one of the coolest representations of races. We also have great ravens, which are ravens, having Crone leading them. We have Caladan Brood, who is an ascendant, and we'll talk about ascendants in a second.
We also have the opposing forces with Laseen and who is the empress of the Malazan Empire. And the Malazan Empire within itself has so many different people, needs and objectives and they tend to clash. Now, who comes on top of every single clash so far? It's Laseen and she is the scariest of them all. She was an assassin before becoming an Empress and she was so prepared to become an Empress that she created the Claw, which is a loyal kinda secret organization of assassins that reports directly to the Empress herself. And then we have many other people and populations. An example of these are the Moranth, who are allies to the Malazan Empire. And probably the visual easier way to remember them is that they have beautiful flying creatures called the Quorls, and they tend to be used essentially as a courier service, whether for people or for post. But their alliance to the Malazan Empire was hard-won by the Empire through conquest, as per usual. But there is so much more nuance in this dynamic, which is explored in later installments in the series.
And then we have the army. And in the army, we have some of the scummiest people depicted in fantasy, like High Mage Tayschrenn and his objectives. And the reason why I talk about him so negatively is, remember? before when I talked about using systematic killings to continue the propaganda of the empire. Well, he is the first one that is ready to use the destruction of nobles and the city of Peel for his own agenda. And we have other forces opposing this behavior, for example, Dujek One-Arm, who is a one-armed man, but. is a man who is leading the army and he could become emperor very easily with the power of the Malazan army behind him but he refuses to do so. Now the story, we know at the end of the story, this is not entirely accurate although he essentially defects from the Malazan empire with the army itself.
And then we have the Bridgeburners which are a special unit in the Malazan army and they tend to get in trouble quite a bit. Mostly because Laseen is not exactly a grudge, but she has an objective. She has a specific objective around the Bridgeburners, which is to eliminate them entirely. And then we have people who oppose people like Tayschrenn, for instance, and Tattersail is the biggest example. So she is the one that hides the list of nobles in Pale from Tayschrenn. In fact, I don't think she hides it, she really destroys it so that it's irretrievable and therefore guaranteeing the survival of the nobles but she does it because she's experienced the systematic killing of the nobles in at the very beginning of the story in the preamble of the book now she's not in the preamble of the book but we find out while reading it that she was in that brutal moment she was part of the Malazan Empire and she was asked to carry out this order. And it was so shocking to her that she could not do it further, including in the city of Pale.
On assassin, incidentally, so we have already an Empress and I think it's a bit of an unusual depiction of assassin as an Empress, but we have more on Assassins and we have the city of the Darujhistan who is in the second half of the book, the main location of events and Darujhistan offers so much more when it comes to Assassin. So they resist Laseen and her need to conquer, but the city itself is divided and is a city that wants to retain its freedom but does not know how to do it or better. There are way too many ideas as to how to do it and none of them are coordinated. And one of the factions is assassins and assassins are either they have their own agendas or they're being hired to accomplish someone else's agenda.
And eventually they achieve their own independence, mostly because there is an influence, not of a god, but of humans who work really hard to ensure that better people get a leg up at least temporarily.
We also have the T’Lan Imass and Tool, who is probably one of my favorite characters of this entire story. And they offer a lot of information about who they are and what they are, but also we find out a lot about the Jaghut. I pronounce it weird, but there's another race that has been there for millennia like the T’Lan Imass/ And we understand that a lot of the events in this particular book have been in the making for a millennia. And it's incredible to think that this is the approach, the amount of layers that have been baked in this particular story. But we also have the gods. We have old gods like Oponn, the twin god of chance, sister and brother, “he who pushes, she who pulls”, we have also K’rul, and then we have new gods, and their terminology sometimes overlaps but not always with ascendants, such as Shadowthrone and Cotillion, and there is always tension between ascendants, all gods, and new gods.
And there is, in the background, a fight for supremacy, and that fight will not care about the cost the human or the mortal lives cost that this fight leaves.
And then there is one particular detail of the world building that I have wanted to have holding my own hands since the very beginning, since the first time I read about it, which is the Deck of Dragons. It is a tool that is used to read the past, the present or the future and if you are getting the same vibe that I am, it's because I'm perceiving this to be like a tarot deck, only cooler. It also changes the cards themselves, change depending on the pantheon that it's currently on track, available, alive. And I would love to see this merchandise. I would love to have my own deck of dragons. First of all, the name is appealing, but also the art has to be mind blowing. If you remember the depiction of Harry Potter's when in the movies, right, with the pictures are kind of like the Apple version of live pictures. I imagine the deck of dragons to be something like that. But once again, cooler, the cards change, their meanings change, their information within the card change. And so truly, I find this one of the coolest magical tools portrayed in fantasy.
Plot
Now, moving on on the plot. The plot is quite intricate and there was already a lot to unpack in the world building alone. So you can imagine that the plot to be able to present so much world building has to be intricate. And if you can keep track of all the different plot lines happening, there is a huge reward at the end of the book. And what is cool about this is that the reward will continue in the next books of the series. The motivation of the characters as well are very well fleshed out and a lot of the plot lines depend on characters' decision, but because they make so much sense, the plot lines never feel harsh or unreasonable or completely irrational. In the popular belief around this series is that there is an equivalent to military fantasy.
And while army play very important roles in this particular story, but in general in the Malazan book of the Fallen, the focus is mostly on aspects of military life and the consequences of them. And it's more about the life as a soldier rather than as an army. And there are a lot of themes that are being explored throughout the series in connection with the armies and how the armies are being used.
Now, going back to the plot in Gardens of the Moon, we essentially have a story that it's divided into two locations with connecting storylines. The first location is Pale, that is a city essentially destroyed by the conflict between the Tiste Andii and the Malazan Empire. And we have a second location, which is the city we mentioned before, the city of Darujhistan, which is instead a city that is still free, not subject to the empire yet, but it is in a process of being conquered. The first part of the book, which is once again located in Pale, it's really an opportunity for Erikson to share with us the complexities of the Malazan Empire. And this is both in terms of politics and in terms of people. We know that within the Malazan Empire, there are many different interests, many different goals. We have a lot of ambitious people and a lot of people who would like to be forgotten at the same time, so we have a lot of different agendas and most of them clash, but what's worse is that most of the people do not care about the consequences, whether there is going to be a destruction of human life and many human lives, most of the cases or not.
The second location is Darujhistan and what is interesting here from a plot line perspective is, first of all, we have perspectives outside of the Malazan Empire. And so we see the perspective of those who risk to be conquered. And on the other hand, we still have very different interests and needs within the Malazan Empire, different agendas. And the story here, it's about a fight to maintain independence aided by the Tiste Andii versus an empire that has never been shy of using all tools available, and Tool being one of them, in order to conquer and make sure that the Malazan Empire comes on top. Even if that means resurrecting a long imprisoned tyrant. There is really no shame. There's really no limits to what the Malazan Empire will do to make sure that they come on top.
And what's worse, because we are, at least in my case, I'm the reader who has been in need of being part of the Bridgeburners ever since I started, what's worse in this story is that Lassine is desperately trying to get rid of the Bridgeburners.
The events in Pale prepare for astounding results in the second part of the story. We get an ending with a bang, almost literally. If you read the book, you know what we're talking about. And we get a convergence of very different individuals, of plants that come to fruition or that are stopped in the Darujhistan.
What I appreciate the most about the Darujhistan plotline is the use of assassins. I have very extreme mixed feelings with assassins in storytelling, but in Gardens of the Moon, find that the plotlines around assassins are compelling, well written, and most importantly, they feel relatable. We also have Kalam, Sorry, The Rope or Cotillion, Rallick. And every single one of them who belong to this category of assassins has a different perspective, a different motivation, a different need, a different sensibility, a different weakness to everybody else. And they are so unique and so different from each other that it's not about being an assassin so much as to being human. So cool, objectively really well put together.
I also liked the idea of the heist. Somehow in this whole huge mess about a conquering empire, we're able to have a heist that slowly builds up and I did not get it. Obviously the first time that I read it after that it was easy to to find, but the first time that I read it, the heist was building so slowly that I did not see it until it hit me on the nose with it and I was just in love with everything else, which is a perfect moment to go into the last part of the review which is emotions.
Emotions
Once again, I tend to associate my emotions to the characters and their journey, whether it's development or they are just beautiful or horrible events happening to them. And in this case, for the Malazan Book of the Fallen, I find that every single installment is draining. It is a ruthless world, a dog-eat-dog reality. And in some ways it is appropriate that Erikson throws us in the deep end of the story. It is kinda like the same approach that this world would have to any human being. There is no way to slowly introduce a world or its complexity, you are just transported in the middle of it and you have to survive, and really it feels it's a reflection of how ruthless this world truly is. And there are so many circumstances that just break the characters and therefore me as a reader.
This is a place where being alive on its own is a great risk and there are predators everywhere that can make any life horrible, if not even ending lives. Finding out, for example, at the very beginning, the massacre, the smell of burnt humans, it feels so the way that it's described it felt so realistic to me that it was quite shocking to me to fit in that particular prologue. And then having Tayschrenn wanting to do the exact same thing a few years later, it felt horrible. I mean, even talking about it, it just gives me a really an emotional reaction to what is happening and it's not even happening to me. And so I really struggled with it.
Conversely, though, there are a few moments of generosity and selflessness that are to be cherished and it's truly moments of joy. There is camaraderie, there is friendship and sometimes love. They are rare in these stories, but when they come around, they are just a significant moment of sunshine. And there are a couple of moments that truly jumped out of the page in this department for me. The first and I mentioned this before, I've been wanting to be part of this group for the longest time, are the Bridgeburners. Despite everything that the Malazan Empire throws at them, they stick together. They are there for each other and they have an objective, which is to survive while retaining their own humanity in the context of a military expedition. Each of them has a different character. Each of them has a different role. Each of them has a different personality. And yet they are all so complimentary. They're a well-oiled machine overall.
The other moment that gave me a lot of positive emotions is the friendship in Darujhistan. Rallick, Murillio and Coll. Sometimes the lovable, Kruppe and the young Crokus. I loved how this group interacted, how they operated, what their discussions were all about, including how Kruppe just makes people go out of their mind just by talking. And yet, he's not stupid. Kruppe is probably the most underrated character in this entire story, and he does it on purpose. He wants to be undervalued to be able to come on top.
To summarize
So to summarize, the world building is vast, probably one of the largest in the fantasy genre, and it pays off to stick with it, although it requires giving it once full attention and trust. There are gods, there are ascendants, non-human beings with millennia of experience, and non-human beings who want to destroy the world. And then there's humans, with conflicting goals, with more or less power, and people who are just being victimized. All of this leads to a complex plot, which ignites often and leads to severe consequences. Most of the times, deadly consequences, which also showcases how this is a dog-eat-dog world with nuggets of generosity and humanity which one cherishes and then it's been taken away in a few pages afterwards, leaving the reader, least leaving me emotionally devastated.
Now, I want to end this review with one last quote from Erikson's preamble, which is directed at aspiring authors, but I find that these are inspiring words for anything else that one wants to pursue. “Ambition is not a dirty word. Piss on compromise. Go for the throat. Ride with balls. Ride with eggs. Sure, it's a harder journey, but take it from me. It's well worth it.”
And with this, we end this journey through Gardens of the Moon. And I hope you enjoyed the episode or at least found it entertaining enough by following this crazy collection of ideas and thoughts and reasons by which Gardens of the Munges is once again my most cherished fantasy book to date.
Outro
Thank you for spending time with me today and I hope you've enjoyed this episode. Next time on Fantasy Explorations we will dive into great couples and fantasy literature. If you had fun and did not listen to these episodes, please feel free to follow and listen to them. If you find the information I shared with you valuable, please consider following the podcast, leaving a review or a star rating depending on what platform you're using and supporting the journey by word of mouth. If you want any more information about my fantasy adventures, please go over to saltseed.com or follow me on threads where you can find more information about what I like and themes and topics that I mostly enjoy in fantasy.
Thank you once again and see you next time.