FIRE Social Worker Show
Welcome to The FIRE Social Worker Show, where financial independence meets compassion and purpose. Hosted by Joey Laswell, a Certified Financial Social Worker and military veteran, this podcast is your guide to building a brighter financial future while staying true to your values.
Join us for candid conversations, actionable money tips, and inspiring stories from industry experts, military members, and everyday changemakers. Whether you’re a social worker, part of the military community, or simply seeking financial freedom, this show is here to empower you.
It’s time to ignite your financial independence and create a lasting impact. Start your journey with The FIRE Social Worker Show!
FIRE Social Worker Show
Digital Networking to Financial Independence: Ken Peeples on the Power of Financial Social Work and Innovative Coaching
Unlock the secrets to financial independence with Ken Peoples, our special guest on the FIRE Social Worker Show. Ken shares his unexpected journey into financial social work, a field he discovered through LinkedIn Learning during the pandemic. The conversation reveals the power of digital networking and the growing interest in financial social work, especially in challenging times. We also discuss our excitement about upcoming events like the Military Influencer Conference.
Discover the diverse strategies within the FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) movement, from lean FIRE to fat FIRE and coast FIRE. We emphasize the importance of diversifying investments beyond the traditional stock market. Plus, we introduce our new project, Credit Card Wars, designed to help people use credit cards smartly for travel without falling into debt traps. This episode highlights the significance of delayed gratification and lifestyle adjustments necessary for reaching financial independence.
We also tackle critical social issues like predatory lending practices affecting vulnerable communities and the importance of financial wellness programs. Hear about proactive initiatives such as foreclosure prevention clinics and estate planning workshops that aim to foster economic resilience. Additionally, we explore an innovative financial coaching platform idea that merges personal finance education with social work principles, offering a unique holistic approach. Finally, we offer valuable advice for aspiring social workers drawn from candid discussions on the multifaceted nature of the profession and inspiring success stories from grassroots organizations.
Please join me on my different platforms and follow along my journey towards FIRE.
https://laswell.veteran.cards/
All right, welcome everyone. This is the FIRE Social Worker Show. My name is Joey, I'm a certified financial social worker and I am just really excited to be part of this show. I'm excited to introduce you guys to some financial social workers doing some great things. I've been doing a lot of things in the background, working on some things. I got the Military Influencer Conference coming up, which I'm really excited about, part of the MBR Military Broadcast Radio platform, so that's a really exciting thing that we're working on. Got a few things going on, a few things going on in the fire, but really I just wanted to. I'm really excited to introduce my guest. He is a fellow social worker, financial social worker. He's got a lot of cool things going on right now. His name is Ken Peoples. We'll go ahead and bring him onto the stage, ken. Hey, how's it going, man?
Speaker 2:Hey Joey, it's good to be on stage with you. How are you?
Speaker 1:Joey, it's good to be on stage with you. How are you? Yeah, it's good man, I'm doing good. I'm just excited to talk to another finance nerd, also a social worker. So this is kind of like you know the beauty of the internet. You know like normally it's really hard to find people that want to talk to nerd out about finances, but I'm glad you agreed to jump on. We actually were introduced by the AI social worker, so I wanted to ask you real quick how did you know Dr Badillo Diaz?
Speaker 2:So I reached out to Dr Badillo Diaz because I actually heard her on a podcast called Social Work Rise and I think that's.
Speaker 2:I don't remember the host's name, I don't want to say the wrong name. Um, so, uh, I just she encouraged Dr Moore, yes, she, uh. She encouraged uh people to reach out to her on LinkedIn. Uh, during the uh the episode, and I've just found everything she had to say to be so poignant and so impactful. I never thought about the use cases for AI and I never even thought about the intersection of AI and social work before until I listened to that podcast. So it was an awesome listen. So I encourage everybody to check it out. But that's how we met. And then I reached out to you because she said you know what you're into finance and she saw a lot of the workshops that I do around personal finance. She said you need to reach out to Joey. So that's what I did, and here I am.
Speaker 1:Here we are, here we are. Yeah, that's cool. It's the really cool thing about networking nowadays, like it's almost like digital networking, you know, like we're not in person but we still we're connected, you know. So that's really cool and you know we can talk about some stuff later if you want to, but first I kind of wanted to have the audience get to know you a little bit more Maybe tell us a little bit about your journey into social work and then maybe how you got into become a financial social worker.
Speaker 2:Ok, so when I tell the story about how I got into social work, I always preface work. Social work chose me. I was not intentional, uh, going through undergrad or or grad school, I was just trying to figure things out and I just happened to end up here and I'm so grateful that I did so. Um, I always been working in human services organizations. So I was working at one place where we did a lot of work with the community with disabilities physical disabilities, mental disabilities and this organization was very instrumental in doing housing modifications and even public modifications like curb cuts and things like that. They did a lot of advocacy around that. So my supervisor told me she was in MSW and she said you know, you should, you should, you should, you should look into social work. And I thought about it and then I realized that Temple that's where I did my undergraduate studies had a, had a MSW program where you can go and not matriculate it. So I went in and just part time and I absolutely loved it and I said you know, this is probably what I should be doing.
Speaker 2:You know, now for the piece about financial social work. This happened during the pandemic in 2020. So I'm browsing LinkedIn and I'm doing LinkedIn learning. I didn't have anything else to do. You know, we're all stuck inside. So I'm like I might as well learn something. And I'm watching these personal finance courses and investment courses and, um, and they were really good, so I listened to. So I go and see who their instructor is, and the instructor is like I'm like, wait, pause, what? And so, uh, I'm like you know, I expected the instructor to be an MBA or something like that, something finance or business related. But no, she was a social worker. So I went to her profile I forget her name, but she was a certified financial social worker and my mind was blown.
Speaker 2:I had never heard about this, I never knew this was a thing. So I looked into it and I found that, okay, good, yeah. So I looked into it and I found a couple of programs. I found that there was something in university of Maryland uh, college park they run a program. It was like, uh, but they weren't offering it regularly and, again, it was during COVID. So it probably is now. But then I saw I found this center for financial social work and I know you're certified with them too and, uh, awesome curriculum. Um, if you're a fire person, you probably know most of that no-transcript. So that was a little long winded, but that's my story.
Speaker 1:No that was awesome. That was a great introduction. I think I've talked to a few financial social workers now on the podcast and they all kind of have somewhat similar situations. I think the pandemic really did generate a lot of interest maybe. So the Center for Financial Social Work has really increased their numbers in the last few years, but, as you know, it's been around for 25 years I think, so it's still new. It's new to some people, but it's obviously been growing for a while and yeah, so I appreciate you sharing that story. I was curious like you know, you'd mentioned the FIRE community. What got you interested in FIRE?
Speaker 2:if you don't mind me, asking so during the pandemic is actually when I learned about it. So I was always an investor but I was a passive investor and all of my investing was in the stock market. But I was very passive about it Like my. I wasn't increasing my 403 as every year like I should have been. I could have put more in there from the beginning. So a lot of it was tracking, like the mistakes I made leading up to you know. Once you find out, you're like wow, I could, I should have been doing this Cause you know what they say, time in the market beats timing the market.
Speaker 2:So I'm like wow, I wasted all that time, but let me start from here and do the best I can moving forward, Right?
Speaker 2:So, um, during the pandemic is when I really started to get deep into the material. So, uh, that's when I started. Okay, I'm not going to be a passive investor anymore. That's when I started learning how to trade options. And then I learned about FIRE and the 5% rule, and then just 25% in the stock market of whatever your FIRE number is, and I was just like wow, so you don't necessarily have to work your whole life if you don't want to. And what I mean by work is work for somebody else.
Speaker 2:I don't mean like work as in you know, doing things that you're passionate about, that are still lucrative, that you can pay for, right. So that's how I learned about it. So, and then I started doing. I started doing the rounds on all the fire podcasts. So in a way, I'm kind of switching my investing philosophy from the stock market to real estate and more physical assets. That's just my preference, or is becoming my preference now. And so I started picking up, you know, podcasts like Bigger Pockets, and then there was a weekly juice or something like that. And then there's the fire. The fire fire something. Of course. There's the fire social worker, and there's so many fire themed podcasts out there that I can't even remember off the top of my head right now and I wish I had them queued up, but it doesn't matter, but yeah. So I got a deep dive, I started studying, and then it's just like, okay, how can I alter my lifestyle now to like go all in on this?
Speaker 1:so that you know, uh, alter my lifestyle now to like go all in on this so that you know, you know it's all about the lay gratification, yeah, so how, what, what, uh, what flavor of fire would you say you kind of align with? Are you more, uh, do you kind of like lean fire or are you into the you know like what we're? You know, for those of those that are not familiar with the fire movement, you know there's different flavors of like. You know lean fire is like okay, I want to cut my expenses kind of down to the bone and have like a smaller number of fire number versus, you know, like, fat fire was like yeah, I want to be, I want to be a baller and I want to have all the you know, millions in the bank and I can just you know, you know, basically spend how I want. Or where do you fall on that spectrum?
Speaker 2:the funny thing is, I will always look like a lean fire person. So even if I am going on fire, you would never know, that I mean, I could be a millionaire right now.
Speaker 2:You would never know, nobody would know. Yeah, but, um, I would. I'd probably be more of a little fire person. Um, and uh, I would probably be more of a fire person and I would probably be like, I forget the other one, so there's one like a barista fire. I feel like that's where I'm at right now, like self-employed, like or not barista fire. It's like the slope, the slower pace fire movement where you're still part time in a way.
Speaker 2:Um, I don't coast fire. That's what I'm looking for, thank you, um, but, yeah, but coast fire is probably more realistic of where I'm at right now because, like, uh, I'm doing, I have a lot of, like uh, big expenses, um, just because I'm dealing with family situation stuff and so, like uh, you know I can't really go all in on fire right now. So, um, right, because I have to handle business. But, um, I'm I'm definitely coasting and I'm definitely working towards my number to get there, and I'm doing it with a blend of I want to do it with a blend of real estate and stock market. I think that's a really good combination.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean you got to diversify, right.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2:Well, so yeah, crypto.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's right yeah, all right, well, uh, so, uh, yeah, crypto, okay, um, I was curious, um, like with, uh, with the financial, social. Well, let's, let's talk a little bit about um. You had mentioned in in a in our earlier message, um, that you have a few projects that you've been working on and I wanted to highlight them because I'm really curious to see how you've been incorporating, you know, financial, social work or just personal finance with you know that combination of social work and finances. So tell me a little bit about Credit Card Wars Wars.
Speaker 2:Card Wars is a workshop that I do, so I'll tell you why I started. So one of my big how I do my self-care is I like to travel, I like to go to other places, I like to experience new places and new people, new cultures, and I just love it Right. So that's a very expensive habit. So I do like to travel and so I would spend a lot of those expenses on credit cards, even if I had the money to pay for the trip, right, and you know. So I thought, okay, cool, because I was trained to use credit cards incorrectly. So my very first credit card, I was at Westchester university as a incorrectly. So my very first credit card, I was at Westchester University as a student. That's my first university one too. I was on the top floor of my dorm. These people came up to my dorm room everybody on the sixth floor or the top floor, everybody in the whole dorm and they knocked on our doors and signed us all up for credit cards, and that's how I got into that.
Speaker 2:I eventually got out of that, but I still didn't know how to properly use credit cards. So later down the line, when I would use credit cards to fund my trips. What I would do is I would just pay half of it off and then just finance the rest. But then I realized, wow, once I learned how to use credit cards properly, I was like, wow, so that trip was 879. That flight was $879, but I paid, when all was said and done, like $1,120 for it. So I paid more for it because I'm paying interest.
Speaker 2:And that's when I learned about deadbeats and revolvers and I said you know what? I've been playing this game wrong the whole time. So instead of being a revolver, which is somebody who carries the interest, who pays interest every cycle on their credit card statements, I would be a deadbeat and be totally useless forever. So my goal was to earn back every cent of interest I ever paid to every credit card company just through rewards, which is points, cash back, miles, sign up bonuses and things like that. And I optimize my credit card strategy so that I get at least more than one, at least one point cash back. Everything I spent everywhere I spent, no matter where it is. So everything is a discount. And then, when you pull those little incremental savings, you can take a whole trip on the whole other side of the planet and not have a care in the world, so I teach people how to do this and.
Speaker 2:But personal finance is very personal, so everybody's situation is different. So most of this is I give the workshop just to show people you know, this is how you properly use credit cards. This is what it means to you know, be a revolver versus a deadbeat, and this is how credit card companies make their money and this is how you avoid being a person stuck in that feast, that fee cycle, in an interest rate cycle, and you can just reap all the rewards. You just got to be responsible, you got to be good at tracking and you just got to be interested in doing it. So the workshop works through all that stuff. But what a credit card wars workshop works through. All that stuff introduces people to the concepts. But my coaching I do financial wellness coaching and that is where we do the credit card. We can get you, I'll get you set up with a specific strategy depending on what you want to do. But it's that's all individualized stuff, depending on you know who the client is.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice. Yeah, I'm definitely curious to, to, to, to tune into that credit, that that presentation that you have. Just, you know, just because I am always down to learn, you know, like I'm there's, there's always something new, some new, you know new policy that comes out, or you know some new perk or something like that. So it's always good to uh to stay abreast of those things. So, um, so that's that's really cool. Uh, how, how often do you do those workshops?
Speaker 2:So I do them probably like on average, maybe like once or twice a month. Um, I've been dialing back now because, uh, well, I was, I was probably doing like, maybe, like, well, I was probably doing it maybe like three times a month, maybe like once a week at certain points during the summer because there's a lot of interest in this. But now that the semester has started in school and I have a lot of teaching duties so I can't always be out and do all those fun, because those are community ones that I do. I don't charge for some of this stuff. I do it for the community, but I do also offer it, you know, online for anybody who wants to. You know, check it out and things like that.
Speaker 2:So really good stuff. It's a lot of fun. Especially, you know, I find things to be a lot more interesting when you make it a game. You know you just gamify it. You know what I mean. It's just that's all it is. It's a game, it's just you, it's just pvp. Give it like that. You know it's like fortnite. It's just you versus chase or amex, whoever you want to, and it's just you guys are strategizing and out maneuvering each other to see. You know they want you to pay interest. You don't want to pay interest. You want the sign up bonus. You know what I mean. You want the points and the cash back. So you just make sure you stay in that lane and you just do your, you know, and then, yeah. So it's a lot of fun to optimize. It's a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just. It's basically just kind of hacking the system. You know, instead of going going with the masses, you know, you, you kind of go go on your own path a little bit, you know, and it is. It is a little bit of a work and it does take discipline, but it definitely can be done and I'm definitely an advocate for using credit wisely. I mean, that's also part of of of, you know, managing your credit score and, and you know, um, just wise, um, fiscal management, you know. So that's the other thing that people don't realize is that if you don't use your credit, then sometimes you can lose your credit, like it'll go down because you're not using your credit. So they'll, they'll lower your, your, your limits and then suddenly now your credit score is going down, which has been happening a lot.
Speaker 1:I've been hearing a lot about that lately. But you know, unused, dormant accounts. The credit card companies are like well, you know we're, you know we need to pull back some of this credit limits. And then, next thing, you know, you used to have like a. I think this happened to me. I looked at one of my cards. It used to be like a $4,000 limit and then it went down to like a thousand and I was like oh wow, okay, I'm glad I checked that.
Speaker 1:So that's a little PSA to definitely check your balances, because sometimes they do they'll lower your limits sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's never happened to me yet so far, but I would hate that because it just, first of all, that'll raise your utilization. Not that we care, because again we don't pay interest right, we pay our statement balance every month, but still it'll lower your utilization even when you do charge things up. So it's not good to roll back your total credit line.
Speaker 1:And I don't like that they're doing that very sneakily.
Speaker 2:That's not cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but okay, so let's talk a little bit about project equity. I'm really curious to learn more about this. This sounds really cool.
Speaker 2:Okay. So this is really the intersection to social work and financial wellness. And this project comes out of a personal story for me, because I've experienced financial trauma, but I didn't know we experienced it until a decade later, you know. So I was 16 when my parents divorced and we lost the house, our house, in the process and you know, I didn't think anything of it at the time. But then. But now, when, now that I know, you know, I know what I know now, and looking back at the life course, like how much that impacted, you know, not not just me, my sister and I, but my mom and my father as well, you know, just financially and just you know. So you know I always wanted to. And then I've heard a lot of other sad stories. Like I said, I did home counseling for a long time well, right after undergrad, for two years, and I saw two cases that really upset me.
Speaker 2:It was one it was an older lady. She was probably in her sixties and she was widowed, only had four years left on her mortgage and somebody approached her with a loan modification You'll pay so much less. And this, this and that Same thing happened to another guy. And this guy he used to work. He worked somewhere outside in the suburbs, not in the city, but he still came into the city to work and he said somebody convinced him to get a loan modification. He had his wife who was very sickly at the time and, like you know, near hospice. I'm like why would you put them in this situation, you know? And so he came to me as well for counseling. And this is what we would do home loan modifications with this with Harrisburg, like with with the state. I think they were called hes, if I remember correctly, and so we did that work with them, and it's just like this is a systemic issue. You know what I mean. These people are being preyed upon and this is during 2007, 2008, during the housing crisis. So they were good in their loans for, you know, 10, a year. One of the other one was 18 months, but then that balloon payment hit and they could not keep up with it.
Speaker 2:So how, what does this have to do with project equity? So that's my personal experience, like my personal, my personal experience and my work some work experience, right, but we're also having an issue here in the city of Philadelphia, where, you know, even on my block now, where I live on my street, there are two developments being built two, three story apartments. Now, this is a, this is a street, just nothing but homeowners. It's been this way for as long as I've been here, or as long as I've known, and so everybody's property taxes are going to increase as a result. So there are a lot of people who are very vulnerable, who are very sensitive to any type of increase like that. However, there are a lot of programs here in the city that people just don't know about, that they need to get tapped into. So that's where we play that role to be the liaison.
Speaker 2:So all we wanna do is just like combine proactive intervention, community engagement, and just promote financial literacy, and so, and to keep people, the most vulnerable people, you know, black and Brown individuals, are indigenous people, women with children, families are elderly people, because they're at very high risk of being foreclosed on. A lot of them, you know, and they're on a fixed income and you know, and so somebody has got to do something about this. So it's, I feel, like there's, there's, there's. What's missing is connecting people to these resources. Some people are doing it, but they're not reaching a lot of people and it's very hard, especially to reach, like a lot of the elderly, uh, our elderly, uh, neighbors, because you know they're not necessarily on social media, like that. If they see a flyer, they're not going to scan a scan a QR code or anything like that. So that's the hardest population I've been. It's been really challenging to get them because I really want to target them because they're probably the most vulnerable.
Speaker 2:But also we go into estate planning. I'm a big fan of Revocable Living Trust, tell people about a will, the importance of passing inheritance and like passing it down to the next generation and things like that. So there's another spinoff to this project, equity workshop, which is it's called don't sell grandma's house, right, you know, keep it in a family. So we talk about, we talk about a lot of that type of stuff. You know what I mean and this is a workshop.
Speaker 2:It's very like family oriented, like you know, for you know older adults, but, like you know, we really talk about it and we get into the history of redlining. That's how we start off. We talk about how it's not an even playing field and how there's still predatory lending practice is still happening, for you know minorities in this country, and so you know, we, we talk about that history and we talk about okay, what do we do about it? What can we do on our end to play defense and keep everybody who owns their home in their home and if they're having trouble with their property taxes or even mortgage foreclosures, we can get them connected to the resources they need to get them out of that hole and back to where they need to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that's awesome, like an awesome program. It sounds like and it really from what I'm learning. You know I'm still a relatively new social worker, but what I'm learning about social work is we're the connectors. We connect people and resources. You know, like, whether it's at the macro scale or the meso micro scale, and you know it sounds like what you're trying to do is you're trying to connect these people who need the resources with the actual resources, which can be a very daunting task, as as as any social worker can tell you like getting them to the door of the building that they need to, like fill out the forms is just half the battle. Sometimes they actually have to do the forms and do all the leg work and everything, which is which is what a lot of times where people get frustrated and they don't follow through. So, yeah, like, has there been any good success stories in the city of Philadelphia where you've seen, like you know, like a push for connecting residents and community members with the right resources?
Speaker 2:Yes, so there are a lot of great organizations here in Philly, grassroots organizations that are doing fantastic work, connecting the whole community with resources and, like you know, with each other. We sort of do mutual aid with one another. You know what I mean. So I think we can only rely on each other, you know. And another, another point about the, the project equity, so the foreclosure prevention clinics, it's it's, you know it's, it's, it's more about promoting also, you know, financial wellness and like, just like, fostering a very supportive ecosystem, not just for homeowners but just for the community as a whole, you know, is nothing more disruptive to families or like. Think about, you know, people becoming housed or having to move because they were of an eviction or a foreclosure or something like that, how much the kids, their routine is disrupted. You know they might have to go to a new school, they might have to go to a new daycare, new friends move to another part of town or move to a new town. You know it's a lot of stress on the parents, it's a lot of stress, it's a lot of stress on everybody involved. So you know, we have a very flourishing housing landscape and the thing is, the thing here is like. It's more of like a ordinary residents versus investors. But in terms of victories, I'm really glad to say that. You know, our city council has been doing a really good job. It's particularly one of our city council members who represents West Philly and Southwest Philly, for you know, bringing about a lot of these, these programs. So there's there's a lot of these programs. When I couldn't do this work and connect these of these programs so there's a lot of these programs wouldn't exist. I couldn't do this work and connect these folks to these programs, or I wouldn't be able to at least like.
Speaker 2:And to get to another point sorry, I just had a quick sidebar. I just want to think about something I thought about. You were talking about the paperwork angle. So every time I give this workshop, people have different needs and so they need to talk to me about different things. So for one person it might be like okay, my husband is disabled, we need a modification, a home modification, like what resources are available to the city. For another person it's like yes, my taxes are too high, I cannot do it. How can I mitigate this? I don't want to lose my home.
Speaker 2:For somebody else, it might be something totally different. So for each person is I have to individualize things, but I'm giving a group presentation, so at some point and, like I said, I'm doing this through my organization, so we're not a nonprofit yet, but it's called dynamic justice collective and soon, hopefully, we'll be a nonprofit and we'll, you know, be able to get funding and things like that. But, um, you know, right now we don't have funding, so we do this on our own. But you know, like I said, this is a passion project for me. This is something that you know is, is this an issue that impacted me as a child, and more so as an adult too? Because, uh, this is now I'm more aware of it. You know, I'm more aware of of of how much it negatively impacted me as a child, which I wasn't aware of it then, or maybe I was just disassociated, you know right.
Speaker 2:Because it's just the worst got through a divorce, right. So so, yeah, like I said, it's a passion project, is something that I will continue to do. We I want to expand it and I want to maybe it's a model that can reach other folks in other cities. You know, uh, you can change it up and uh make uh tell her it's specific to your local community, but it's just a workshop, um, it's Philly specific, um, but the things that aren't fully specific or is redlining, is something every community across the country has experienced, and also estate planning is something that everybody should be doing across the country. So those parts are not zip code specific, so those pieces can go anywhere and I encourage everybody to do this type of work and help the community in this way the community.
Speaker 1:I'm still new to the Memphis area. I have been reaching out to different agencies to try to do basically what you're doing and really get into the community aspect of financial literacy. I did reach out to another financial social worker based out of St Louis. I'm still hoping to get her on the show at some point. Her name is Alnita smiley. She's doing some great things. She has a. She told me about a program where they basically get, you know, hope, hopeful home buyers you know under in the underserved communities and they're basically going through the, the whole step from from cradle to grave of like okay, this is what you got to do to get a house and like they go from, like you know, getting credit repair getting you know doing your credit repair, getting you know, doing your credit, like from from the ground floor.
Speaker 1:And as soon as I heard that I was like man, every, every place needs that type of program, and I was just like man, why, why aren't more more communities doing things like this, you know? But it does kind of come back to financial literacy, and I know you mentioned that before. You know, financial literacy is, is should be, a required subject in school, I feel like. But it's also something that I've been trying to advocate for on my platform of just like just having conversations about money, like just open dialogue with peers, with, you know, friends and, and you know, family members.
Speaker 1:We just, we just we're just really awkward and uncomfortable talking about money and and I'm just hoping that, you know, with conversations like this and, like you know, hopefully the conversations that you're having can really help foster that, that sense of like okay, we're all dealing with financial problems. Everyone has financial problems. That's a universal thing for the most part. So how can we, like you know, just through dialogue and and normalization and reducing the stigma around, like debt and things like that, you know like why, how, why can't we change the narrative around talking about money? So I appreciate what you're doing and you know, hopefully, that that we can also have more substantive discussions like this in the future with people that we care about.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And you know, I take a very cynical view for why personal finance is not toyed in schools. I think there's just no intention. I think folks want you in debt, they want you paying. We live in a neoliberal world, capitalist world, where people create markets and want you to pay rent some way. Somehow they would create a market so that somebody can make money.
Speaker 2:So I think, uh, when you have people coming out of school not knowing how to write a check, um, not even knowing things like interest or debt, like I didn't know anything about student loan, debt or debt period, you know, I understood that. You know, okay, I owe you a dollar, I'll pay you back on the schoolyard, okay, cool. But you know, student loan debt is a whole nother beast, you know, and we're not educated about that at all. So, and I think that's by design, I think the system is working and I know you want people to be revolvers. I mean the banks sure do, right. I mean they want you to pay interest. You know what I mean. And so, like there's no incentive to really like, uh, to really have a uh, a true, long term, sustainable uh solution to student loan debt, like, come on, you know. So it's like I'm I'm very cynical about that. So that's why I feel like I feel also feel very empowered, because I feel I've come to grips that nobody's coming to save us, you know, is not the federal government, nobody's coming to save us.
Speaker 2:It has to be us that does this work and it has to be us who go out in the community and educate the people about personal finance, estate planning and just how to build wealth and live a happy life and be comfortable, because finances is just like, like I said, your finances contribute to that Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like you know what I mean. Like it's it's how much think about how much stress and anxiety, um, that in depression that you won't have to experience if you didn't have money, money, money issues you know what I mean Cause a lot of our stress, anxiety and depression is brought on by, um, our personal finances. So so I feel like it's part of the health and wellness journey I really do.
Speaker 2:Financial wellness is good for your mental health, it's good for your physical health, sure, and it's just good for your overall holistic health, in my opinion. So that's why we really need to lean into this. We really need to, like you know, do what we can to like, you know, if you need to do research, you know, and it's this niche, this niche in social work, because I really want to go in, all in on it and I also find, like you and other folks are very passionate about financial social work, and I love that.
Speaker 1:I love it and other folks are very passionate about financial social work and I love that. I love it. Yeah, it's just one of those, like you said earlier, like that light bulb moment. Like you know, I became a social worker and I'm like I love social work, but then as soon as I saw that financial social work, like I think it was like a presentation, it was just like like the heavens lit up and I was like, oh my God, what is this?
Speaker 1:I have to do this, you know, because I'd already had a passion for personal finance and you know, like it was just like I can do something with this, you know, and yeah, so, like, speaking of that, I actually did have an idea that I've been it's been germinating for a while and I wanted to kind of pick your brain about it, or at least you know, kind of kind of pick your brain about it, or at least you know kind of kind of get your your perspective on it as a federal financial social worker. So I'm working on a, on a platform that is basically like I'm, I'm thinking of it as, like better help meets uber, so, but for financial, financial wellness. So I'm basically wanting to um, to build a platform where financial coaches can get on the on the platform and then customers can basically get matched up with a financial coach. So the idea is, um, is I mean I'm, I'm working on, uh, building the platform right now as we speak, but um, but I guess, but I guess I haven't really had enough conversations with other, you know, financial social workers about the idea. So, you know, I thought you might be a good person to really kind of like, you know, if anything, just brainstorm with me like, okay, how could you see this actually working? Could this actually work?
Speaker 1:And you know, would you, would you theoretically see a market for you know, other coaches wanting to basically do what we're doing connecting with coach, connecting with clients like Uber? You know you just say, hey, I need a ride to this location. Well, in this, in this situation, it would be, hey, I have this financial situation and then you have a financial coach or professional. That's like all right, let's do this. I got you. So I don't know, what do you think? Just give me some feedback. What do you think?
Speaker 2:I love the idea. So, when you say a better help meets Uber, so I'm thinking this is literally a financial therapy practice, but more so, coaching, and I think you know what there's, you know coaching and social work, and I feel like this would be fantastic because I don't think anybody would be able to do the sort of financial, personal finance, education and support that a social worker could, just because, you know, we come from that biopsychosocial framework and that more holistic framework looking at the whole person, the whole environment, and so, like, uh, consider all those considerations, I think people will have a fantastic experience at this outfit, versus like saying going to, like, uh, uh, getting a person. Uh, what's those people called? Uh, those people that do your finances or whatever I forget.
Speaker 1:Like a financial advisor CTSC.
Speaker 2:Financial advisor, yeah, yeah, right. So I mean, I think the coach could be a supplement as well, or maybe the financial advisor could be a supplement, you know, but depending on how much you're working with. But I think there would be a very big market for that and I think it would be very successful. And even that's just based on my anecdotal experience before I even kind of launched. So Sacred Realm has only soft launched, it hasn't fully launched yet. So, and still, with the inquiries, it's just like, okay, there is something here, and I think people are really hungry to, you know, and you know they want to, people want to be comfortable and they just want to learn how. And I think that's where this comes in. I think it's a fantastic idea. Joey, I think you should definitely go through with it. It sounds like you already are well, I was.
Speaker 1:I've been working on it for like a behind the scenes for a while and then I've been I've actually been been utilizing chat gpt to kind of like flesh out, and that's why I want to talk to you a little bit about AI too and and this confluence of artificial intelligence, social work and finances. And, as Dr Badio Diaz mentioned, you know like I'm I'm kind of have like this weird, even like super niche of like finance, you know, social work and then now artificial intelligence. So I'm really trying to harness and train this, this artificial intelligence. So I'm really trying to harness and train this artificial intelligence. So I created my own chat GPT to basically create a virtual financial onboarding assistant.
Speaker 1:So the way I was envisioning it was that you know, like whenever you do financial counseling, you got to do, you got to get all the data. It's like all right, well, you've got to get the list of their debts, their assets, their income, all that stuff. So what I was hoping to do and I've been trying to mess with it is create that chat TPT that will do it in a conversational way, like a chat bot would do, but then also with the underlying empathetic, compassionate, like cause I'm, I'm like teaching it financial, social work components as well, you know. So there's a there's an emotional component to it, you know.
Speaker 1:So it's. It's like it's not just like, okay, give me your numbers. It's like, okay, where, where's your stress level right now? Like what, what is your level of anxiety, you know? So things like that that I'm trying to incorporate into be that holistic model of financial social work principles. So, yeah, I'm, and then okay.
Speaker 1:So this is the other thing I wanted to see, if you what your thoughts on. So what I was hoping to do was to create like a complexity score based off of your, your financial picture, and then, like, let's say, out of a hundred you're based off of your finances. You know you might be at a 75 out of a hundred, so that might actually warrant a little bit higher, like a maybe a premium subscription because, like you know, like that's going to take a lot more work. But if you're like starting out you know you're more worried about financial literacy, getting that foundation then maybe it's like a 20 a month thing, you know, um, so it was, it was I was thinking it might be a subscription model, but um, but then again that kind of goes against a lot of the financial industry, where it's usually like a flat fee kind of hourly rate kind of thing.
Speaker 1:So I don't know that that's just something I've been thinking about and, you know, just curious. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:I like. I like the subscription model that you talked about and I like the inverse relationship with, like you were saying, you know when you're first starting out you would probably charge like 20 because you're just trying to learn about personal finance, but as you move up to the more advanced levels you pay more and then you'll be in a better position to pay more by the time you get there anyway. So it makes perfect sense. I like the idea. That sounds great. So I like the subscription model. Curious, what is the alternate model? Model is, like you said, a flat rate. How would that work?
Speaker 1:Well, so the other thing I was thinking about was is basically just creating a, the platform to where the, the coach could basically charge their own, like basically, you know, charge what, what they want to charge. And then, just like Uber you know like Uber would like we it would get a cut from that. You know, basically providing the platform. So yeah, I'm still kind of got you.
Speaker 2:That's where the uber came in. Okay, I was wondering where the uber piece came in.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry I didn't get it okay no, yeah, yeah, um, but yeah, I mean, is that does that sound like something you think? Especially because I'm thinking about financial social workers and I'm looking at them as like the gig economy, because, let's be real, social workers need some extra money sometimes so they could become certified in financial social work and then get on the platform and then start making some extra cash. You know that was the other. The other side of this is that I'm trying to, trying to.
Speaker 2:It sounds great.
Speaker 1:Trying to, in trying to create jobs or create incomes, residual income- right. Which is part of the fire. The fire thing you know is is creating them that other sources of income. So so that's kind of my, my bold, moonshot vision. So you're the, you're the first.
Speaker 2:I like it.
Speaker 1:First person. You're the first person I've actually just put it out there for.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm honored, I'm honored, and yeah, and once this is off the ground, I hope you'll think of me.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely Because.
Speaker 2:I would love to be a part of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's like I like that you're building a community of financial social workers Like you're. You're the only other financial for social worker I've met, besides the people that I see on the like CEU credits for or the CEU trainings for at the center for financial social work. So you're the first one I actually talked to and like actually had an interaction with. So if we can get a whole bunch of other people together and build a community of helpers, oh man, that'd be great. You know well there's, there's 2000. I did the research.
Speaker 1:I asked Rita Wilson, the founder, or I found out through Rita that there's 2000,. At least as of now, it's 2000 certified financial social workers out there.
Speaker 1:So that's 2000 potential coaches that could you know be bringing in extra money, and and also helping with financial literacy, helping with, you know, financial traumas and uh, yeah, so that that was, uh, that's been that's been germinating for a few months now.
Speaker 1:Um, but yeah, if, if you're interested in being part of that, that project that you know, because you know it would, it would be a, you know, as I'm, you know, workshopping it. You know, like there's there's the whole minimal, minimally viable product, the MVP, which is like, okay, this is like the, the prototype, you know, but then, like the grand vision, you know is is potentially pretty complicated. So I would require vision. You know is is potentially pretty complicated. So I would require, you know, like, funding and things like that. So, uh, it's, it's, uh, it's. It could be a pretty, pretty big project, but I'm trying to do the bare minimum to kind of get the, like I said, the prototype out there and at least get the vision out there to see, okay, is this actually makes sense, you know so awesome man fantastic yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I thank you for that feedback and and um, you know, we can always we can keep talking offline and, and you know, work on it and workshop it some more and and I'm I'm always because, like I, I love talking to other social workers, other financial social workers and other change agents that basically are saying, hey, you know like we can do differently and we can do something different, you know.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, and it sounds like you're you're doing, you know you're you're creating workshops, you're you're, you're putting yourself out there in the community and and this is just another way for people like minded us, like minded people like us, to kind of do that, you know, and have a platform to do it.
Speaker 2:So yeah, absolutely. I, I, I, I, in fact, I I'm going to be more like you and have more of an online presence. I feel I realize now that that's that's important, to get the word out like. You know this type of content. In fact, I was on one podcast I don't know if you know this, this, this guy, he's a professor, dr Boyce Watkins, I think. He taught at Syracuse. He's a PhD in finance, and so at the end of the, the, the, the, our chat, he asked me okay, well, where can people find you? What is your social media? And this, this and that? And I had nothing to say.
Speaker 2:So I learned from that experience. Now I have things that. So now I realize the importance of like putting out content. So I appreciate you even like starting a podcast, having a podcast, um, and putting this content out there. And I encourage a lot of social work, I encourage all social workers to. You know, you don't always necessarily have to wait to find an opportunity or or look for an organization that is doing what you're doing. If you see a need and you want to do something, you want to start it, you just get started, just start doing it and just start organizing.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Um well, you know, and that was like I said. Oh, go ahead.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry I was gonna say, and I was just thinking about it recently that, like you know, with online world being the way it is, you know like, and we are social workers, we literally social is in our title, so it kind of behooves us to be social and social media is one of those platforms. So if we can advocate and, you know, help people with these platforms and I was inspired by, you know, social Workers Rise and Social Worker Rants Baz, you know, baz Marino and Catherine Moore and all these other social work podcasts, because I was listening to those podcasts while I was commuting to my grad school and, you know, in school and social work school. So, like I was, I was taking all this in and I'm like man, I love what they're doing. And then it just so happened that like, um, so I I got hooked up with the military broadcast radio and that's kind of like where I, I, they taught me how to basically create a podcast. So they're a non-profit that helps veterans create podcasts, and so I basically was like, well, my idea is to help military members with their finances.
Speaker 1:And then it's kind of evolved into, you know, this whole fire social worker thing. So, um, it's just it's been a crazy journey but like, yeah, I mean, um, I'm, I'm just uh, like I know, when I first started I was just throwing everything at the wall and I had no like I had no idea what I was doing, but but I was uh, you know, just winging it and trying to trying to make, uh, you know, make content about finances and and workers and they're interested in finance, and I'm like I found my, my people, you know. So I'm just uh, every time I talk about financial, social work, I just get, I get super excited and and I'm like you know, the other, the other challenge is that like there aren't any real jobs with financial social work per se.
Speaker 1:So right now I'm basically doing financial social work just through an online platform.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so it's just been a crazy journey, right yeah, and I want to say you built a fantastic platform and, like you said, you just you just got started and you know, and I feel I realize now, you know which is in how Dynamic Justice Collective came about, similar to how the Fire Social Worker came about. It's just like, hey, just just get started and just just do it. You know, and we don't have to know what you're doing, you know. You just figure it out as you go. Just give yourself some grace. You're going to make mistakes, learn from them and just keep pushing, just keep moving, just keep moving forward. That's the key.
Speaker 1:Just keep pushing, yeah, yeah, because, like a lot of uh, you know um the social work school, you know, like CSWE, like you know there's there's a lot that that they, they can't, they can't teach you everything you know. So there's a lot that you know we don't know about. Until we get out into the real world of being a social worker, you're like, oh wow, this is not like school at all in some ways, but I love that there's this community of like-minded social workers. And, honestly, linkedin has been amazing. I connected with you via LinkedIn. I I honestly didn't even put much thought into LinkedIn for many years until the last like five or six months when I was like, oh wow, I I've been, I've been holding out on LinkedIn. There's a lot of great um opportunities here, you know, if anything just to connect like this, you know, virtually um, you know, hopefully we'll be able to meet someday in real life.
Speaker 1:I love Philly and I would definitely be trying to travel down to Philly at some point, or up to Philly.
Speaker 2:If you come up, definitely let me know. Definitely let me know. If you come to town, definitely let me know.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm actually going to be in New York City for the Social Work to Wealth Conference next month. In October October 10th and 11th we're actually going to be doing a brochure.
Speaker 2:I had no idea that this was a thing, yeah yeah, it's on LinkedIn. I had no idea.
Speaker 1:Social Work to Wealth. Oh yeah, it's actually been on LinkedIn a couple. So Eva Ford is the rich social worker. She was on a YouTube channel and she's like a coach. She turned me on to it and yeah, it's. It's in New York.
Speaker 2:I know her. Okay, I've seen her channel. I know exactly what you're talking about. Okay, I'm going to look into coming to this. Okay, maybe we'll meet next month. That would be awesome, man.
Speaker 1:That would be cool.
Speaker 2:Thanks for telling me about this. I would have never known.
Speaker 1:Of course, of course.
Speaker 2:We're actually going to do a road trip.
Speaker 1:We're going to drive to New York City, so we might actually I don't know. I don't know how the road trip is going to go but we're going to drive to New York City.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you'll pass by me. You got, well, yeah, so you'll pass by me. Um, you got, you got to pass through philly to get to new york. So, because you guys are going to be going up, 95 most likely.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, man, I'll see you, that's gonna be, that's gonna be great that's gonna be great so I'm looking for that and I want to sign up for that yeah, that's awesome. Thanks for letting me know about that. Seeing this is why these connections matter, you know.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I wanted to uh to ask you. Like you know, you've got a lot of irons in the fire. Um, you mentioned that you're. Are you in a professor as well, or um, what's the? What's your day job? I should say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm a lecturer, so my day job is a sacred realm consulting, just doing my consulting work, doing my I have. We have a lot of workshops, school cohorts with a dynamic justice collective, so I'm also in the schools with that as well. We I do therapy as well and you know, kind of moonlighting is that I don't have a lot of clients just like 10. I'm working towards my LCSW. I don't know if you're into that at all.
Speaker 1:I mean, I would like to be. I would like to be for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm working on that and also just some other business businesses that are that I run, like with family and things like that. So I'm kind of like, like I said, I'm more of a co-spy and I do teach, so I do lecture. Right now I'm at Rutgers. I really like it there. I'll probably pick up classes in other places as well, but right now I'm more so leaning into the consulting piece and that's really what I've been spending most of my time lately that in Dynamic.
Speaker 2:Justice Collective and our school cohorts and things like that.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, it sounds like you got a lot going on, a lot of projects and irons in the fire and I think, from what I've seen, a lot of social workers. We can't just sit still and just do one thing. We, we, we have to, we, we have to have many hats and do many things and it's almost like an addiction, you know, but it's all about helping people usually, you know, it's always you know, trying to trying to trying to help and trying to make a difference, make the world a little bit better place.
Speaker 1:Um, so you know like when, when you see a social worker just just shake their hand, say thank you. Because you know, like, when you see a social worker just shake their hand and say thank you, because you know you might not realize it, but they're probably thinking about a hundred different things and then thinking, you know, or they're thinking about a you know a plan for their next counseling session or a group therapy session. They're thinking, they're brainstorming, like what am I going to talk about for my next, you know, groups, group therapy session? So it never, it never ends, but in a good way in a good way yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, it's a lot of work, but it's very, very rewarding as well. It's very rewarding.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't do it, I wouldn't do anything else. Honestly, I wouldn't do anything else at this point. You know like, yeah, I wouldn't do it, I wouldn't do anything else. Honestly, I wouldn't do anything else at this point. You know, like, and I'm, and I actually, if, if you were to to talk to a, you know, a future hopeful social worker, you know, let's say they're thinking about college, like you, or you were never really considering it, but like what? What would you tell somebody to say, hey, social work, and actually could be a fit for you, or if this is your kind of person, what would you tell them to come join us?
Speaker 2:So that's an interesting question, because usually most of the people that I kind of like sort of steer towards social work are people that sort of already have an interest in it, towards social work, are people that sort of already have an interest in it. But then I know that's not true for most people, because I was a person who didn't have didn't well, not didn't have an interest in it, but didn't really know much about it, just thought of it. In fact, it might've been stigmatized Like these people come and take your children away or something like that. Cause that is social work is stigmatized like that.
Speaker 2:But I think one of the biggest stigmas being as though this is the fire social worker podcast one of the big biggest stigmas with social work is that we do not get paid, and I talked to my students about that and I always referenced this 2009 study about that showed. You know, there is a the higher your education is, the more educational attainment you have as a social worker, the higher, the more money you earn. That's that, but that's general to everything, every to that stat in general, regardless of degree. But I also, like you know, tell people that and you just have to be really creative, and I know also that the field doesn't make it easy for us because it creates a lot of hoops for us to jump through. So LSW, lcsw two totally separate tests, two totally separate fees that you have to pay, two tests you have to pay for, and so there's some things we need to clean up in social work, I think, you know, to make it a little bit more, um, a little less of a gauntlet, you know.
Speaker 2:And then I think, uh, in terms of licensing some of the instructions and things like that is not very, you know, you hear different things from different people and it's very hard to find certain details on NASW, nasw's website and things like that. So we got a lot to do. But for people who are interested in the profession, or anybody who's not interested in the profession but just likes helping people you're an empath like me and you just have a natural inclination to just be helpful and caring I think this is a, this is, this would definitely be the profession for you, and if you like personal finance, you can get into this too and still help people in that way as well.
Speaker 1:There you go, wrapped it all up in a nice little bow. That was perfect, oh man. Well, man, ken, it's, it's been. Can you believe? It's been an hour almost. We've just been going and it's been an amazing conversation. We're definitely going to have to have you back on and keep the conversation going. Okay, now you have a chance to redeem yourself. Where can people find you? On your different platforms, or are you still working on that?
Speaker 2:Okay, so I'm still working on that, but you can find me. Dynamic Justice Collective that's wwwdynamicjusticecollectiveorg. We do have an Instagram page up. We do have a LinkedIn page up. The Instagram will start posting on that soon. Sacred Realm Consulting the site is not live yet. It will be on my LinkedIn. Anybody feel free to follow me and connect with me on LinkedIn. Ken Peoples, you can find me and, yeah, you can find Sacred Realm Consulting on LinkedIn and the site will go live and once it goes live, you'll obviously have access to it. So, and you can find me. Well, yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn. So, yeah, that's it for now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so LinkedIn is your main hub right now, and that's that's. It's a great, it's a great hub.
Speaker 2:Like.
Speaker 1:It's a great way to connect with people For now, for now, people for now, but then we, yeah, we definitely got some, some some projects going. So, um, well, ken, it's been, it's been a pleasure. Um, do you uh, do you have any last parting thoughts any? Anything you want to um kind of like, uh, anything you want to say to the audience. One last thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, um, but anybody who's here listening. Thank you for tuning in and please support the fire social worker. Please support his work. Does great work with veterans and thanks for having me. I really enjoyed our conversation. I'm really excited about the project you're working on and I definitely will keep talking. We'll talk about that. Keep that conversation going behind the scenes and, yeah, I'll be happy to come back on any time.
Speaker 1:Awesome, awesome, all right. Well, that's going to conclude today's stream. We'll be uploading this pretty soon and thanks again for everybody that's listening, and we'll catch you guys on the next stream.
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