Breaking Growth Barriers with Kyle Peter of Nevergreen Pools

In this episode of Between Two Stops, host Niki Acosta dives deep with Kyle Peter, founder of Nevergreen Pools, whose remarkable journey from servicing 12 pools solo to managing a 1,300-pool empire is packed with insight. Kyle shares the gritty, honest evolution of his business—covering breakthrough growth milestones, the power of data-driven decisions, route acquisitions, and how Skimmer’s billing solution helped streamline operations.

From leapfrogging responsibilities to obsessively systematizing every part of his business, Kyle offers real talk on what it really takes to scale, including how to hire, when to invest, and why margins sometimes shrink before they grow. Plus, hear his take on the changing landscape of pool service marketing, the rise of AI, and why your reviews (and your response time) matter more than ever.

If you're building or scaling a pool service business—or just love a great entrepreneurial story—this episode is a must-listen. 

Transcript

NIKI ACOSTA (00:00.908)
Welcome to Between Two Stops. I'm your hostess, Nikki Acosta, and I am very, very excited today to be joined by Kyle Peter, one of our Skimmer customers, but also a really incredible guy who has done amazing things with Nevergreen Pools. Kyle, introduce yourself.

KYLE PETER (00:20.848)
My name is Kyle Peter. I live near Sacramento, California, and our company services about 1,300 pools a month. And we are just strictly service and repair. And I've had a really fun past almost seven years growing this company from 12 pools to where we're at today. And I have a great team supporting that endeavor. And I love talking shop about swimming pool industry.

NIKI ACOSTA (00:49.102)
So Kyle, I had to go back and look. I've had the pleasure of having you join me for webinars in the past and talking about all kinds of different things related to growing a successful pool service business. But I looked at our original case study that we did. It was released in June of 2023. And I know you started, you said in 2018 with 12 pools, hustling at your local pool shop, trying to get customers and help out.

with people who needed repairs, kind of came in not knowing really that much about the business. And at the time of June of 2023, you had 600 pools. And as you just mentioned, and as I looked up today, we are exactly two years later and you have 1300 pools. So you've more than doubled in two years and it's not easy to run a 1300 pool.

company I can imagine. So I wanted to just kind of get your thoughts on, you know, your incredible growth, how you've done it, what you've learned along the way. So do you want to start kind of from the beginning?

KYLE PETER (02:01.126)
Yeah, I think there's definitely some paths along the growth trajectory that are really tough to push through. So for me, I've kind of looked in our local area, like there's a number of companies around the 400, 500 bull mark. And then past that, there's few less that are, you know, in the 600 to maybe 900 mark. And then there's even less that are beyond the 1000 mark.

You can probably count them on one hand. And that's for a reason. At the time, I didn't know exactly what I was doing. But now looking back, I kind of have this clear plan that I enacted. But I didn't know. It wasn't clear at the time. And basically what I learned is, as we all know from being a business owner, you need to spend the money. You need to make the investment before you get the returns. And it's very easy as a smaller operation to not do that.

but you're not going to see the big returns if you're not putting in the big investment. So from day one, we continually purchase vehicles, had really good data to make decisions on to see where the growth was going. And now we have seven years of data and there's nothing new under the sun. I mean, we could have big bumps that come up and go, but those happen from time to time. So that's part of the data. So you see the patterns and then it's a matter of looking back on that data.

making plans for the future. So we hired four people and purchased four trucks in April, knowing that we're going to see that growth. And we also saw some customer churn last year that was higher than we'd like to see. So we put some more customer service people in place. And all those things we've done from day one have shrunk our profits. But the goal isn't to maximize profit when you're growing.

when you're growing, the goal is to grow, right? And so that's the top line number, the revenue. But people say, you know, the revenue's for vanity, the profit's for sanity. So you still need to keep that profit number in check. But you're basically funneling profits back into the business to grow. And I mentioned earlier about those kind of those breakthrough points that I didn't realize I was at them at the time. But that 500 mark is typically where you need to bring in

KYLE PETER (04:23.782)
another layer of management, so some more overhead cost. And if that's not budgeted in into your pricing, that's going to take all your profit. Because that's the profit that a small company is seeing is really more like management salaries. And there actually isn't that much profit. So I made sure there was profit and ability to pay managers. And so when you do that at 500, the profit really squeezes down. But then as you get to 600, 700, 800, now you see the profit come back.

your respectable number. And so then again, at the like the 800 to 1000 pool mark, there's another breakthrough where you essentially need to build out like, let's say customer service or junior service managers or district service managers. You're probably bringing on a second or a third repair person and you're doing all these things before you have the revenue again. So now where we're at, at 1300 pools, we're starting to see

some of those those profits come back up right and then we'll have another breakthrough I don't know what it is yet but even not identifying those breakthrough points the key is to constantly be planning and to support the growth otherwise your turn is going to be too high and you're going to be pretty stagnant

NIKI ACOSTA (05:43.778)
I think, yes, I agree with you. I think where a lot of folks kind of get caught up is, when you're an owner and an operator and you're in the field, and then you get to a point where you are getting more requests for service than you yourself can support, maybe you bring on another tech, right? At that point, you've got,

another tech to kind of help you, but as that route gets built out and your time is, in terms of admin increases, how do you justify or when is it appropriate to bring on someone who can take on kind of the administrative side, whether it's answering the phone, sending out quotes, managing appointments or inbound calls or.

or you know following up with repairs or anyone that you might work with who's involved in a repair like what is the What is? Looking back the most ideal first or second hires you should make if you are smaller and wanting to grow

KYLE PETER (07:00.272)
The answer to that question really depends on the owner operator's skill set. And so I help support and coaching fashion a number of full service operators. And some of them come in from like a corporate world and they're like, I want to do my own thing. And so they buy a small route and then they're trying to build it up. And so those guys might be really good at the office side and systems and building all that out, but maybe they're not equipped to.

diagnose why a filter pump is not working. And so for those folks, they might be wanting to hire more of the technical technicians. But then if someone's more of a technician themselves, and they're maybe not as good with the paperwork on the office side, they might be looking to hire the office admin. So you're basically hiring skill sets that you don't have. And so you can go one of those two routes. For me,

was kind of interesting because I was more of the corporate world and had kind of that system mentality, knew about spreadsheets, knew about P &L sheets. I went and worked for another pool service company for a year. And then I first serviced the pools. And then I started this leapfrog technique where then I hired someone to service some pools. I serviced a few pools, had more time to be at the computer. And then hired a second person where then I wasn't doing any pools, but now I'm learning repairs and doing more repairs.

And then I did repairs for a while and then I brought someone in to do repairs. And then eventually I just kept reducing job responsibilities for myself. And that's still the case to today. mean, marketing is one of the things I just passed off within the past two months to someone that's managing all the marketing campaigns and stuff we're doing. So you want to hire someone that can help compliment your skillset. And then that leapfrog technique is really helpful. And the other thing that I had going for me is

In the early days, we were able to live off my wife's income and her benefits. So we weren't needing to strain the business and squeeze profits out of it. We were able to keep them back in the business.

NIKI ACOSTA (09:12.12)
very fortunate to have a wife that will let you go and build a pool service company.

KYLE PETER (09:17.252)
Yeah, yeah, it wasn't easy. We're kind of past, we're definitely past the dark days, but it was very hard. It was not for the faint of heart. Building a company, we had a newborn at the time. My wife was working full time. Had a lot on our plate, we still do, but I'm not out in the field and coming home at 10 o'clock at night, so.

NIKI ACOSTA (09:41.518)
One thing that I recognized very early on, you were talking about systems and processes, and one thing that I think that you've done really, really well is you've been able to put systems and processes in place that help you be more efficient and also make decisions that are based on actual data. Can you tell us more about kind of your philosophy in terms of...

KYLE PETER (09:46.566)
Thank

NIKI ACOSTA (10:09.048)
how you're making decisions using data in your business and some of the processes that you put in place.

KYLE PETER (10:15.034)
Yeah, so I'm definitely a type A person. And I think that oftentimes in business, some of the most successful people are not. They're a little more creative and they just, take chances and they get messy and they, things happen. And then as there's growth there, there may be bringing someone on that's more of the type A person. So I have a employee that's been with me for nearly day one since 200 pools.

And he's more of the creative thing outside the box, get messy type. And I'm the more type A person. And I call it the yin and the yang. And we come up with some great decisions together because we have both those perspectives. But so the systems and processes come so natural to me, even when I was doing this all on myself, I made my own checklists and processes and steps. And little did I know at the time I was setting up a playbook to pass off jobs to other people.

So you constantly wanna be doing that. The problem is it doesn't come natural to most business owners. So it's one of those skills you really need to just force yourself to do if you're looking to scale. So you need to write everything down, have steps. And for me, I have a touch of OCD where I don't do math in my head, I can, but I don't trust myself. I gotta double check and put it on Excel or Calculator or something. And so same thing when I was doing, you have these

routine habits of things you're always doing. just always document them for myself, wrote them down and put them in some sort of tool that has like reoccurring reminders for what to do for myself. My team tells me that I have an uncanny ability to keep track of things and all that, but it's just, basic project management and you need to have a tool and a resource that you use every day. And so for me, I have a folder on my iPhone, which has Skimmer.

iPhone reminders, which is a very basic app, but I love it. And then my email. And those three things I need to check, like before I shut down for the end of the day, first thing I wake up in the morning, well, my calendar's in there too, that's very important. And that just guides my decisions and my plan throughout the day. And so everything is systematized. And again, it comes natural for me. If it doesn't for you, maybe that's something you look for if you're bringing in like an office admin, like, hey, can you help me write down everything we do here?

NIKI ACOSTA (12:41.326)
Yeah, I think, and just looking at some of the things that you created that we've shared through our webinars, things like a task of onboarding an employee, right? Not only do you have to like find and hire this person, but once you hire them, then what? What's the training plan? How do you get them access to tools? How do you make sure they know how their trucks should be stocked, where things are on the work? Like there's a whole list of things that.

A new tech needs to be able to be comfortable with before you can turn them loose. And I think you've done a really great job in being able to document those processes and have someone that can manage to that document to make sure that you're literally checking all the boxes and making sure that you're not missing steps. One of the things you sent me recently that I thought was really cool was just a diagram, a poster of how the trucks should be stopped.

which is like, seems like something, you know, so basic. And if you have been doing it on your own forever, then, you know, it's probably like second nature. You don't think about it, but there's a reason why you have your trucks stock the way you do, right?

KYLE PETER (13:49.19)
Yeah, absolutely. it's another thing that I've had managers say, well, do I need to hold their hand for everything? Do I need to tell them exactly what to do? And it's like, yeah, you do. Like if everybody did their job as well as an owner with that much pride and care, you know, wouldn't need management, right? But the fact is we do. And so, yeah, the more you can, you know, I hate using the term idiot proof, but that's just the simplest way to, the more idiot proof you can make things.

the more scalable and repeatable the systems will be. And whether that's, hey, this is how much chlorine we carry, this is where we put it, you come in the morning, you swap it out here and there to, you know, recording and keeping track of your labor rates and your pricing. And all these things can be like these big hairy tasks. And you as a business owner, probably just naturally know how to do it. So there was a day where every time we quoted a job, I sat down and I looked up prices and I

developed what I thought was a good price for that job. Well, now we have that in a thousand products all developed and jobs all developed. And I have, we have automations to put in our costs inside of there and our gross profit margin requirements and our labor hours. But it took, you know, three years to basically know how to do that and develop that. And then now I set it and forget it and someone else maintains that. And so you keep, again, it goes along and keep.

putting down on paper and systematizing things that you do yourself that you need help with so you can keep scaling and growing.

NIKI ACOSTA (15:23.128)
Talk to me about what you've done around marketing, because it sounds like you've actually done a pretty good job. One of the things that I've always been impressed with was your ability to have, I'll call it, non-service revenue things that you do for customers, whether it's like, I think you had UV system maintenance and all of these other things, but you had maintenance plans for folks.

KYLE PETER (15:38.096)
Mm.

KYLE PETER (15:51.654)
Yeah, when you first mentioned marketing, right? Like kind what we're doing there. So with marketing, the first time we ever did Google Ads, we hired an agency. And I 100 % support that. If you're going to go alone, you're just not going to know the tips and tricks, and you're going to waste a lot of your marketing dollars, whether it's Google or Meta, Facebook, they're going to gobble all that up, and you're going to be off to the side. So using an agency to help with your campaigns,

NIKI ACOSTA (15:56.366)
Sure.

KYLE PETER (16:21.762)
is worth its weight in gold. So I definitely recommend that. And then it's a matter of monitoring how much we're spending and how much are you getting for that. And there's different, there's customer acquisition cost, there's return on ad spend. There's a number of these different metrics. It's really important for a business owner to understand. And most importantly, which is most difficult to keep track of. And so there's different CRMs and a lot of the agencies have these different platforms where you can monitor all this. But

you get out what you put in. So you need to be tracking where your leads are coming from and you need to be tracking what the revenue you're getting from those leads. And once you do that, sky's the limit. I marketing should be a money printing machine. I put $10 in, I get $100 out. I'll do that all day. How much, you know, it's an infinite, infinite opportunity there, but it's a matter of knowing those metrics. And so,

We spend quite a bit of money on marketing and we know we're going to get out on the other side. Just a little aside, we do know that lead generation is down this year and also the cost of the leads is up. And I think that's because people are becoming more sophisticated and we have more competitors advertising and fighting for the customer's dollar. So that I think will continue to happen.

NIKI ACOSTA (17:45.858)
Yeah. Yeah, I have definitely seen that. know, we have great relationships with a couple of marketing firms that market exclusively for pull service companies. And I was talking to Ryan of Pull Monopoly yesterday, and he was saying, you know, when we started this out, we used to be able to get leads for 25 bucks, you know.

KYLE PETER (17:48.71)
industry.

NIKI ACOSTA (18:09.39)
Now qualified leads are costing more like a hundred dollars in some of the major market areas that he's servicing to the point where he can't take more than Four or five clients in a metro area because otherwise he's just driving the costs up He's competing against himself his clients are competing against his own clients and that's it's interesting. I mean, I think

KYLE PETER (18:25.386)
Mm.

and

NIKI ACOSTA (18:34.69)
What people don't realize is that when it comes to algorithms and Facebook ads, all those kinds of things, when you start having more people competing for visibility on your ads and eyeballs on your things, the cost ultimately goes up.

KYLE PETER (18:54.277)
Mm-hmm.

NIKI ACOSTA (18:54.783)
And I think that's something that some people don't quite understand. The other thing he told me is that, you know, that's still the number one problem that he sees with a lot of folks who writing ads is there's no one picking up the phone.

KYLE PETER (19:06.028)
yeah, absolutely.

NIKI ACOSTA (19:07.254)
And when someone's looking at an ad, if you're gonna put ads out there and you're wanting people to call you or fill out a form, those people are actively shopping at that moment. You need to be able to respond to them very, very quickly in order to even have a chance at winning their business. And so that was good advice. Speed to lead, that's it. One other.

KYLE PETER (19:16.262)
Thank

KYLE PETER (19:23.77)
Yeah, speed the lean.

Yeah. Yeah. And also the climate is changing. I just had a call earlier today with a, a consultant and he was mentioning that Google searches are down. And I think, I think Google should be shaken in their boots with what's happening in the AI world and chat GBT. I mean, my wife, she's a little late adopter to things, but like within the past two weeks, she's just constantly over on her phone, talking to chat and GBT planning our next vacation, doing this. How do I cook this?

And it's an amazing tool. And I think there already is some advertisement abilities in there. It's brand new, but that's going to be the next thing. And that's going to take a lot of that Google market share. So as someone that's trying to market and reach the people, it's a lot to navigate, for sure. And you could easily waste money. So that's why you need to keep track of your metrics.

NIKI ACOSTA (20:21.814)
The other thing he was talking to me about, and this is something that you've also done a really good job at, is kind of advising folks that if they want to kind of be at the top of those Google lists when people are searching, they need to have good reviews, and they need to have a lot of them. Like the more reviews you have, the better your rating is, the higher up on the list you fall just due to the algorithms.

KYLE PETER (20:42.7)
Yeah, so there's really kind of like four areas in Google and the top one is the Google local services ad. So the Google guarantee, that's a blend of pay to play and your organic. So your rankings, your recent reviews. It's also how frequent and are they recent. So if you just do a big campaign to get a bunch of reviews four years ago, you're not going to get ranked high enough there. So that one's like the hybrid and that's number one.

And then number two would be the Google Pay Per Click, which is literally it's a little auction every time and there's the three people up there. Then you have your maps, which is some local SEO. So you're really going to be dominant in your local area where you're set up. And then the rest would be the SEO. Then there's some more ads in there. So our goal is to be everywhere. And the final one as a business owner you should be working on is the SEO, in my opinion.

because you can start a business in day one, spend money, and get on the first page of Google. But the SEO takes months, year to start getting the traction there. And a lot more work.

NIKI ACOSTA (21:51.734)
Yeah, it's been interesting to see your website evolve too as kind of the technology has shifted. I've noticed you've made some improvements.

KYLE PETER (21:59.47)
Yeah, well, we started with a Squarespace site that a friend and I built and was not optimized at all. mean, according to Google, we didn't even exist. Couldn't find us organically on Google, unless you searched our name. But in terms of local search, we weren't around.

NIKI ACOSTA (22:18.83)
So one of the other ways that you've been able to grow too is through route acquisition. And you and I have talked about this on a webinar, so we don't have to get super deep into it. If y'all want to see previous webinars with Kyle where he kind of does a deep dive on these topics, definitely check out our YouTube channel. They're all there. But tell me about your acquisition strategy, because it sounds like you've been able to make some good relationships and get some good deals too.

KYLE PETER (22:26.031)
Yeah.

KYLE PETER (22:44.006)
Yeah, and actually our last one, one we did this March was through a connection through Skimmer. So I like, kind of go up and down on acquisitions and the marketing spend and different ways to grow. And you know, the kicker is the best leads we get are the referrals, which we pay $0 for. There's a high close rate on referrals. So it's like, how can you, how can you support that more?

So obviously we all know we have this tight window to make hay, which is like right now, I probably shouldn't be on this podcast. I should be out trying to get customers, but I have a great team around me so I can. So you have this tight window to grow your customer count. Because organically or through paid ads, you're going to grow right like April through the end of summer for us here in Northern California. And then we pretty much stay flat through the whole winter, which is a combo of like doing some price increases.

getting rid of customers that are not a good fit. And then a little, we pick up a few customers here and there. So we kind of stay flat in the winter. So what I like to do to keep the growth going is purchase routes of varying sizes in the fall into the spring. Purchasing around middle of summer is a lot to put on your team because there's a lot of customer contact. There's a lot of setup that...

we're busy enough with new leads and customer service needs that we don't, don't want to put that on the team. But the thing to keep in mind of is the customer acquisition cost is much higher when you're acquiring a pool. You know, you're buying from a broker, you're going to make 12 times the monthly revenues. We're talking over a thousand dollars customer acquisition cost. And, you know, through marketing and having a sales rep out there in a vehicle and salary and all that, you know, you're

potentially looking at maybe $300, $500 per customer. So it's about double the price. So our goal is to purchase pools, just like a real estate investor would do at a deal, right? At a wholesale price. And what we have to offer is a quick close, a quick evaluation of the pools. And so for some sellers, they like that, you know, as opposed to going through a broker. And most of those are also someone we've potentially built a relationship.

KYLE PETER (25:05.934)
with or they've seen us in the marketplace and there's some trust there. And it's also people that care about their customers and want them to go to a good home. They don't want to just sell them to the corporate guy that quit his job and he's like, hey, I want to buy some pools. They want them to go to someone that's going to handle their customers well.

NIKI ACOSTA (25:28.182)
Yeah, I'm sure if you're servicing folks and in their backyard for, you know, five, 10 years, even two years, like you've got a pretty good level of trust and it's probably hard to just turn those over to anybody for sure.

KYLE PETER (25:37.029)
Yeah.

Yeah. And you know, we've done, I think 10 acquisitions and a varying success, but we have again, cause we keep track of a lot of data thanks to Skimmer and using different tags. think we overuse tags, but it's nice to have the data cause it helps to make decisions. And so we have a pretty good idea of how many of those customers we purchase, we keep, how many of them we do new equipment work for that like basically pays for that.

$1,000 customer acquisition costs right out of the gate. lot of data there, which helps build confidence and helps you evaluate routes when you're purchasing them.

NIKI ACOSTA (26:20.322)
And then once you purchase them, I know getting folks on to billing and getting that all streamlined. And I think in our last webinar, you mentioned being able to get customers on auto pay through Skimmer Billing. How big of a game changer that's been that it's baked into your process now. Can you tell us more about how that transition to a new billing system and kind of automating the billing has helped? think you said you reduced headcount because of it.

KYLE PETER (26:48.806)
Yeah, we basically brought like the invoicing and collecting payments from like a back office role, like in QuickBooks to we brought it to like the forefront and the customer service and even on the repair team. we're working with Skimmer to bring quoting and payments even more to the forefront to the the repair technicians working in the field or any technicians working in the field, depending on how you structure your business. And all of that just eliminates paperwork.

whether you're doing it or you're paying someone to do it. And then also when a customer calls in, now the people that are answering the phones have access to all that. They can take payments. They can tell people what's up. It's no longer like hidden over here in this vault where you need to be a CPA to access it. that's been a huge game changer. From a very early point, we required people to have credit cards.

on file with us before service began. And so we've continued that. There is a little bit of a challenge with an acquisition. We have a number of changes that are happening. We don't typically require that right away. We bill on the first, do on the 10th. And so when we do an acquisition, we'll usually bill on the first, do on the first of the next month. So we give them that grace period, especially if they're used to like paying a month behind or something like that.

And then the next month we go to the first one, the 10th, and we try to collect the credit cards, we call. But what often happens is most of the people are just signing up for autopay on their own after like that third or fourth month of the service, right? Once they're like, okay, this company's real. I've actually seen someone in my backyard, you know, 12 times. I'm gonna leave my card on file. And so that's really no effort from us. We're just doing the invoicing. Once they get to trust us, then they are leaving that card on file.

And I think of our customer we have, it's over 90 % of the people have a card on file. That's for repair work or pool service. Everything's auto pay. As soon as the job's done, the money hits the account the next day. So very, very helpful for cashflow.

NIKI ACOSTA (28:57.952)
And such a great experience, right? Because you're not calling your customer going, where's my money? Where's my money? Where's my money? And they're not saying, I didn't get your email. I'm not sure what you're talking about. It probably helps with the relationship a little bit too. And as far as like, you're not having to call them with bad news or chase them down or spend your time.

KYLE PETER (29:04.376)
Yeah.

KYLE PETER (29:18.15)
Yeah, granted, so it's June 13th. So we build on June 2nd, the first business day of the month. And there was $10,000 of credit cards that didn't go through. So you still have to deal with that. And we're also working with Skimmer to kind of streamline that collection process. And then the other thing is we still have about 50 customers that pay by check. You got to go to the post office, got to enter them. They might have missed their, oh, you forgot your.

skimmer basket so then they got to write another check for $35 or whatever it is and then enter it in a skimmer and then you need to reconcile it for your bank deposit and QuickBooks then you need to go to the bank. This is a lot of work and so well worth the 3 % or whatever the credit card fee is as you grow because you're having to pay some to do that.

NIKI ACOSTA (30:07.436)
Yeah, it probably helps with your cash flow too to have that money at your bank account, you know, quickly, right?

KYLE PETER (30:11.686)
100%. It's a reliable, consistent pattern. And it's something I work with some of the folks I coach with and how to manage that cash flow. And for me, when that money hits the bank account on the second or thereabouts, we're budgeting out that because that's real cash that we could do things with. We're budgeting out two payrolls for the month, which you're not doing payroll on a credit card. And then we're also budgeting out, know, supply costs that are needed.

NIKI ACOSTA (30:42.69)
Well, Kyle, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. I know we're at time here. I wanted to thank you for being such a great advocate for Skimmer and offering all kinds of free tools and templates and advice via our webinar programming. Do you have any closing words for folks that might want to grow or any kind of advice for people that are thinking about making that jump into building a bigger business?

KYLE PETER (31:12.218)
I would just say that it's always worth it. In the moment, it could be really hard and dark, but you gotta push through and go to the light. looking back at some of the darkest days I've had growing the company, looking back, they're almost like badges of honor. They're necessary to push through and get where you're at. So get connected, get a mentor, get some other business owners together in groups and chat and try to stay positive.

NIKI ACOSTA (33:11.03)
Right. Well, thank you again, Kyle, for joining. I hope you'll come back and talk to us. know, 1300 pools is a lot. I know you're going to have a busy summer, but we hope to hear more about your successful growth in a future episode.

KYLE PETER (33:26.116)
Yeah, anytime. if we're done. So in two years, we'll be at 2,600 according to that math. So get to work. All right. Awesome. Take care.

NIKI ACOSTA (33:33.516)
All right, yeah, you've got till June of 2027. The clock starts now, Kyle. I'll let you get back to it. Thank you so much. All right, bye-bye.