Liberation is Lit Podcast

Tolstoy of the Zulus (with Moses Oaktree)

• Tayler Simon • Episode 10

Share episode

In this episode of the Liberation is Lit podcast, host Tayler Simon speaks with poet AJ Johnson, also known as Moses Oaktree. The discussion revolves around AJ's journey as a writer, the scarcity of Black male representation in literature, and how this has influenced his work. AJ highlights the importance of community and collaboration in improving as a writer and mentions his free writing and performance workshop, Tree x House. He also delves into the significance of oral tradition, reading diverse literature, and the power of words in fostering social change. The episode concludes with AJ emphasizing the need for organization and community-building to create positive impacts.

Books mentioned in this episode:

Where to find AJ: 

@Moses_Oaktree on Instagram

Thank you for being part of the Liberation is Lit podcast! If you have stories to share, want to suggest topics, or just want to connect, find us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @liberationislit or visit our website at liberationislit.com. If you enjoyed the episode, please consider leaving a review! Remember, your voice matters, and together, through the lens of stories, we're making a difference in the world.

Tayler:

Hey y'all, welcome to the Liberation is Lit podcast where the power of storytelling meets the force of social change. I'm your host, Tayler Simon. And in this podcast, we believe in the profound impact of stories. And I am so glad to be joined today with AJ Johnson, aka Moses Oak Tree. And we're going to get into it about everything poetry, spoken word writing, all of the good things. So what's up, AJ.

AJ:

Yo, I'm good. How are you?

Tayler:

I'm chilling. I'm chilling. Just trying to stay cool in this heat.

AJ:

Yeah, good luck.

Tayler:

Right. So AJ, can you tell us a little bit about yourself as a writer, a storyteller, and what inspires you to write poetry?

AJ:

Awesome. So, for those who don't know me, my name is AJ. I go by Moses Oaktree as my, pen name. I've been kind of into poetry for, a nice little time now. I think, going through school, I think one of the things that I noticed, pretty early on was, we're reading all this literature. It's super interesting. they go a lot of different directions, but there's not a whole lot of, like, Black authors. There's not a lot of authors that look like me, talk like me, represent my history, or even my struggle in a lot of way. Literature, I guess, learning it, disconnected from your history feels very abstract in a lot of ways. I'm learning so much about all these values and all these morals and all these ideas from all these other people that don't look like me. I think, because of that, it kind of created this, push for me to learn more. And I, I ended up finding, I guess, some authors that really connected to me early on those included. Everybody goes, it says Langston Hughes was their poet muse in a lot of ways. For me, it was probably Amiri Baraka. Leroy Jones, he was 1 of the 1st Black poets I found in my school library. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is kind of cool. I kind of like this guy, it just going off of that, just off of, the history of, you know, the, all the stories that you kind of are forced to read in literature. I was able to kind of supplement for myself, and ultimately it became a goal of, well, there aren't a lot of Black writers. There aren't a lot of Black male writers. I think I would like to be 1. Additionally, there's a lot of culture, not being written about, and a lot of our stories and a lot of our stories that, you know, aren't being touched on. There's not a lot of Black fiction, that I can find. There's not a lot of Black horror that I can find. There's not a lot of Black sci fi that I can find. And and even with the Black poetry, all anybody knows is Langston. So let me see what I can do.

Tayler:

Yes, definitely representation is an issue. I think the only books by Black authors I read in grade school was probably Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry, and Their Eyes Were Watching God. And one was in fourth grade and one was in twelfth grade. So, hardly anything in between.

AJ:

No, it's super bad, especially in the South. I don't know if it's very different in the North. Most of my education, my time has been in the South, but I can say, just finding some kind of representation, and especially in literature and in literature as a Black male, especially, I, I love my Black women. I really do. You got Toni Morrison out there. Who's just, incredible. More contemporary, you have like your, Jessamyn Wards. You have your Alice Walkers. you have, you know, a ton of Black women who are really pushing the envelope of what literature can be. Octavia Butler, But as far as Black men go and Black men in literature, it is a dearth. It is really tough to find someone. I was, you know, I've been very inspired by the work of Ralph Ellison. But in a fictional realm, It's just been tough. I've, I've tried to get into authors like Marlon James. I've tried to get into, you know, a lot of, you know, a lot of different Black male literature just so I could have, you know, better ways to be able to speak, you know, from myself and from my own experience. You know, you can, you can, you know, check out your Baldwins. It's just, it's a very limited, like, sample size. And I guess that's one of the things that frustrates me, but it frustrates me into my creativity.

Tayler:

And something I didn't really notice because I'm a Black woman is that even the The Black male authors that I know, they wrote for Black women, like the Omar Tyrese and like the Eric Jerome Dickies, they're writing for Black women.

AJ:

Yeah,

Tayler:

there isn't a lot.

AJ:

Well, I will say this. So I used to work at a bookstore. Shout out to the book tavern in Augusta, Georgia. It's a Black men in general, and literature. It's, it's, there's definitely a dissonance. And it's really because all day, I mean, you know, you can be like, man, I got the hardest bars. I'm out here, you know, I can spit better than anybody else. There's this, there's this whole idea. Ta-Nahisi Coates talks about it. He said his, he said it's the idea is, Tolstoy of the Zulus, right? It's like, Hey, I want to be the best Black writer of all time. And this was a thing, that, a lot of literate, like Black, literati, had to deal with, you know, we're talking 40s, 50s, 60s, boom, boom. Like I'm that dude. And it's kind of shifted into like, Best rapper alive. Best rapper alive. Like, okay, is that is this the only platform that we have to be able to like, you know, work with our ideas and kind of like, you know, try to, you know, share and create and be, it doesn't have to be rap. Does it have to be hip hop? Does it have to be R& B? Does it have to have a soundtrack, to my soul?

Tayler:

Do you think the lack of representation, specifically for Black male writers, contributes to, Black men not being as interested in reading in books?

AJ:

I think it's, I think it's two parts. I think it's, I think it's, it's just how we've been encultured in general. So if you've struggled with literature all your life, and you don't have any representation around you of like, you know, Black men in literature, Black men writers, if you don't know any Black men writers or have seen any Black men writing, you're not going to be interested in writing. Oh, I've only seen, you know, Black rappers, et cetera, et cetera. And especially if you've been frustrated in your English class, if you're that guy who's like, , oh, if the teacher calls on you, like, it's going to sound crazy. Like, yeah, it's probably not the direction that, you want to be affiliated with. You're probably going to want to be doing something else. So it's not only. A lack of, literary education, in the culture, you know, because a, that would have to be very specified, very concentrated because there is so little representation in it, but it's also that, you know, it's just not pushed upon, it's, it's not, Hey, this is a thing that we do. This is a thing that we're about. Here's a couple of examples for it. this is who we are as Black people. We are readers.

Tayler:

And so. You becoming a writer to be kind of like the representation that you sought, you are also working to help other Black writers. So you facilitate a really cool writing and performance practice group in the community called the Tree x House or Tree X. How do you say the X House?

AJ:

It's like, it's like the, the, the, the manga hunter, hunter it's, it's just tree house. Yeah.

Tayler:

Yes. Okay. Okay. Which I do need to go back to, my Wednesdays just have been booked the last few months, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna get back to them, but what led you to start these workshops and how can people, I know you do these workshops for free, right? And how can people support you in doing this work?

AJ:

Yeah, so, I got into it because I'm actually selfish, like, selfish as hell, and the thing is, I want to be, I want to be Tolstoy of the Zulus, like, I want to be that dude, like, dang, man, that, his pen is crazy, yo, every time he writes something, every time I see him, it's just, dang, that dude deep, I want that for me, but I also recognize that, like, I can only go so far by myself. That like, no matter how, no matter what your concept of genius is, it's because of, of what you've been, you know, what you've been shown, what you come in contact with, it's a, it's about the outside influences, that you've had. It's about your horizons. it, it requires other people. It requires other things, even if it's just reading other people's writing to get better. But what we do as a group, I've really picked up from, a book I read recently. I, I'm not entirely sure which one it was. But it was talking about the Inklings. Do you know who the Inklings are? Cool. But you do. Because the Inklings are, JRR Tolkien they are C. S. Lewis. And they're a group of other guys who got together every Wednesday for years and years and years and just tore each other apart. They would sit down and hey, this is what I wrote this week. How y'all feel about it and they would go over it and they would talk about it and boo, boo, boo, boo, boo, boo. And, if it was JR apparently he was, he was super righteous about it. And he would just be like, yeah, C. S. Lewis. That was trash. You should go back. You should check that out. I would not put that out anywhere. And that was, that was JRR Tolkien. And then you'd have C. S. Lewis and all these other guys and all these other guys are also published, for their work. And it was, it was, it was about being accountable to each other. It was like, Hey, yo, I'm J. R. R. Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, I expect you to bring some new stuff this coming Wednesday. And C. S. Lewis expected somebody else to come with some new stuff. And they could, they could talk about it and they could build about it. And they could say, Hey, this is where we need to be in order for this stuff to come through. And there's a reason why we know their names. So for me, it's like, if I want to be Tolstoy of the Zulus, if I want to be the best, Author, performing, poet, speaker that I can be, if that's, if that's part of my dream, I need other people who are also going to be able to influence my work to be at their, their best. I need them to be shooting at being, oh, I'm the best writer alive. I'm the best rapper alive. I'm the best poet alive. I need them shooting to be at their pinnacle. So that they can push my pinnacle so that I can be somebody who's just like, bro, we don't understand how all these guys are so good, but like, all these guys are so good and and and for me to get there. It's not about me. It's about me but it's not about me, because it's a group effort. It's a individual effort within a group so if I charge. It becomes about me. It becomes a yo, Moses is out here charging because it's his show. He's the teacher, blah, blah, blah, blah. Nah, for me, it's about it being a forum. I want everybody to come together and recognize that nobody's better. Nobody's worse, but we're all going to push each other to be the best that that person can be so that they can push us to be the best person that we can be. And it becomes this, ongoing cycle of Because I'm better. You're better. And because you're better, I'm better. And that's all I've ever wanted from it.

Tayler:

I love that. Just a community collaborative space. And you do a great job of facilitating. That's why I use the word facilitation and not teaching. and you do a great job facilitating, especially with your compliment sandwiches. So, I've gotten to see you perform quite a few times. What do you think sets you apart as a spoken word performer? What, what is pushing you? What is that secret sauce that is driving you to becoming the Tolstoy of the Zulus? And how do you incorporate elements of storytelling?

AJ:

Yeah. so for me, my, my storytelling, goes back to, yeah, I, I try to dig deep into the oral tradition, right? It's old as people. So it's, that is something that I want to be able to hold and maintain in, in this new day. And I recognize that, you know, it might not, Be, as as popular as obvious as like hip hop is. But at the same time, it's for me, our cultural history is maintained through oral tradition. As much as it is through the written word, especially if people aren't reading. so what I do is I go back, and I collect our stories. Okay. I collect folktales, East African folktales, West African folktales, especially African American folktales, whether they're Joel Chandler Harris, we're talking like Briar Rabbit, John the Conqueror, all these, African American folktales, are That disappear because there's nobody to continue to share them. So when I write, I not only try to keep the history of our oral tradition. Not only do I try to, code my language in a way of, like, These are our stories. This is how we free ourselves from the plantation that we see and don't see. It, is especially important for me to be able to say, Hey, if you hear this. This is going to make you think something, make you feel something, make you, make you more, whether that is to, to, start the process of dissolving, the ego or, or, or even super inflating your ego with, that which makes you feel like more of you, I want to be able to give you those seeds or at least the words that can act as the seeds for you to become, outside of that just being my philosophy that it has to tie back to our folklore as African Americans, which is like so, so easily lost because no one's sharing. I try to bring a, a level of, philosophy and, spirituality to my work as well. I like talking, spiritual in my stuff, because that is who I am. And I want to be able to have those conversations with people. I'm really big into, Khalil Gibran, and Rumi and, Eastern poetry, in general. I like to look into, lately I've been getting into, other languages in poetry, so I'll, I'll check out some Pablo Neruda, I've been checking out a lot of Spanish and French lately, and Spanish, French, and, and some Japanese as well, There's some like ocean Vuong There's a lot of, really interesting, poets and writers out there. shoot. I'm a fan of Salman Rushdie. One of the things that really, I feel like kind of set me apart from a lot of poets. Whatever is, I still read, and thing is, a lot of people don't seem to, and they wonder why it feels like, the level of their pen is capped. But at the same time, it's like, I don't know. I have, have you read any Ellison, or Baldwin? Who do you still read? Who do you still look at? If you want to be Tolstoy of the Zulus, have you read Tolstoy? What about Shakespeare? Have you just read the couple that they made you read in school? What about everybody else? I want to be able to write horror. So who do I read? King? Who else do I read? Lovecraft? Even though, he has, a weird history. I think, you know, it's being open to all these outside influences, but recognizing that, like, you're going to have to go get it. And it's not, it's not going to be easy all the time, but your pen deserves it, and the day that you decide that, like, dang, I want to be a better writer, it's going to require you to be a better reader.

Tayler:

I definitely agree with that because I'm, reading all the time and I'm also interested in writing horror, so I've been reading a lot of horror. I actually am in the middle of a young adult horror anthology. called The Black Girl Doesn't Die in This One. So I've been reading a lot of horror lately, but you talked a little bit about, using your poetry and your spoken word to plant seeds, to liberate mind. So, Are there other ways that you think spoken word and poetry can be a tool for liberation?

AJ:

Absolutely. There are a couple of ways that I think that it happens, right? Number one, I think words are powerful. I think Words allow you an opportunity to express yourself, and express your meanings, in ways that you might not always, you know, be able to articulate. So for instance, I told you that I was getting into Spanish, right? I'm getting into other languages, and their poetry and I'm actively learning Spanish. I didn't learn it in school. So I'm just like, well, I'm, I'm a teach myself Spanish. Right? so I'm teaching myself Spanish right now. And 1 of the things that I picked up, not only am I, actively practicing Spanish, I'm learning how to learn Spanish. And 1 of the things that I learned. Was that, when you learn a second language, it provides you a vocabulary that is separate from your own, that your brain processes, In a different way. Because of that, if you were to learn a second language, you would have a whole nother means to process not just your ideas, but your feelings as well. And that one of the best ways in order to deal with trauma or issues that are just really hard to talk about is to be able to talk about them in person. Your other language, because your first language is so tied to your emotion, that the second language can allow you to kind of separate just enough that it doesn't have the same emotional effect on you, that it would if you talked about this in the first language, learning this, I can kind of, recognize that, every word is, holds levels of meaning and context, that have the capacity to affect us on a day to day. And if we come to learn and understand more words that are more representative of different concepts and different feelings, we have a better emotional vocabulary. In general, so learning words, that, that coincide with feelings like schadenfreude, right? That's German. You know what schadenfreude is? Okay, schadenfreude is the feeling that you get when somebody else fucks up and you want to like, you're just like like that, like, I'm glad you fucked up. Like, that's, that's schadenfreude. That, that feeling of like, yeah, it feels good to see you fuck up. Like that's schadenfreude. And that's German. And now that you have the word, you have a better understanding of that feeling and you can put your feeling into that word. And that's just a word. What, what about all the other feelings that have words that you're struggling to conceptualize? They talk about how Eskimos have many definitions of many different words for love. As if, because love itself as one word, Can't hold all the ways that we love. So they have all these numbers of, different words and, and we're just talking about love. What if we talked about, revolutionary concepts. What if we had a concept of, libertarianism versus Marxism? The Black Panthers, had terms they used often, like counter revolutionary? And that would be of interest to you if you checked out, Revolutionary Suicide by Huey P. Newton Huey P. Newton, which was a really cool one. So the idea of counter revolutionary, that thing that you did, Counter revolutionary. That ain't, that ain't what we do, because we, trying to get things done. So there's, there's words, and they may come in and out of, popularity, they, they may represent, jargon, but at the end of the day, the goal is, hey, I have a word that I can use to conceptualize this idea, and because I can conceptualize this idea, I can act on it. And to me, that's the power of words. If I can introduce you to a word, I can introduce you to a concept. And if I can introduce you to a concept, I can introduce you to an action. And if I can introduce you to an action, we can take action on that in order to execute whatever goal it is we're trying to meet. And to me, I mentioned that spirituality, is really important to me. I mentioned that, folk history is really important to me. But Amiri Baraka is the guy who introduced me to like poetry and what poetry could be. And if we're talking about coming up in the 50s, 60s, we're talking about being a Black man in the 50s, 60s, and we're talking about that revolutionary poetry that, like, what people lean on Gil Scott Heron about, if we're talking about, like, Thank you. Hey, you know, let's talk about how fucked up this world is and what we can do about it. We're talking about beat poets. If we're, if we're talking about the beatniks, if we're talking about, Def Jam, poetry, you know, in, in the nineties, when it was just like, Yeah, nigga, like this shit crazy, like, like what are we going to do about it? And even today, when, performance poetry is at its height, like when it's popular, it's often in a time of war it's, it's somebody, somebody has been laid low. Something has been put in place to hold us back. Somebody has been shot. Somebody can't breathe. It is a whole. Whole world of like, hey, we got to talk about this. And not only do we need to talk about this, we need to talk about it in a way that is entertaining and educating so that ultimately we can take action on it because some people, some people aren't going to sit for a speech by Cornel West, but they will listen to a poet, talk about, how fucked up shit is in rhythm.

Tayler:

Yes, I definitely agree with all of that. And like, it's a huge reason why I started Liberation is Lit in the first place. So I definitely agree. So lastly, what advice would you offer listeners who want to make a positive impact in their communities?

AJ:

So the new thing that I've been on lately is, organize. My heroes growing up were people who were really, really good at organizing. As a Black man, you know, that might sound a little weird because my hero wasn't like, Michael Jordan. It wasn't like, any like King Griffey Jr. It wasn't, a sports star. Because I just, it just, I'm, I'm like five, five, like, it's like, it is what it is. But like who I was into, I was into Martin Luther King. I wanted to be Martin Luther King. I want to be Martin Luther King. Or, or Malcolm X or Huey P. Newton or Bobby Seale or Elijah Muhammad. Gandhi, any guy who was able to, use their mind, use their, use their spirit, use their voice in order to compel people. Not only were they, incredibly, driven, in intelligent and charismatic, which are things that I try to bring into my life. They were able to organize. And execute. And that, my big thing growing up was always, where are the Black leaders? Where are the Black leaders? Where are the Black leaders? Who should I follow? Who would I want to follow? Who do I, like, where is the king? And I realized that, it took me forever. And I realized that, it's just a matter of who is organizing under the flag of, like, let's get stuff done. Let let's come together and get stuff done. As a group. What did what did MLK do? He, had the Southern Christian Conference. He, organized or helped organize. He had a group that helped him organize the Million Man March. He, was able to bring all these people together. We can talk about Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam. I love. Huey P. Newton and, and Bobby Seale and the Black Panthers. It's, it was an organization. We as, people who are able to speak, able to write, able to, really, be, in our minds about having a vision. About having a vision, and about bringing that vision to life and it being specifically a vision that's going to be better for all of us. The key to execution is organization. And whatever it is that you want, it requires other people and it requires other people to be on board. So bring other people together. If you want to be the best writer you can be, bring them together. Bring together the best writers that you can bring together so that all of you can be the best writer so that if you want to be the best writer, you got a group of best writers to, sharpen your sword. If you want to make change in your community, organize in your community. However you choose to go about that, if it's through poetry, if it's through writing, you can, it's about organizing a forum and organizing the community around that forum and around that group, if you want something, Hey, shoot, you want money? You organize people like all of us, let's go get this money. Every rapper got a crew, like it's an organized group towards a singular goal. And that's what gets us to where we're trying to get to. If you want to talk about people of color, if you want to talk about Black folk and about why we are struggling the way that we are, it's because, you know, outside of the church. Like, where are we organized? Sports? I mean, the guys at the top of sports are making, making plenty of money. Is that all? Is that all? Like, is that what's left? What about, what about our, you know, what about politically? what about internationally? What about, what about manufacturing and business? How many Black banks are there? And it's just a matter of like how we have organized ourself as a culture and how we choose to do so it's organization is organization. And at least for me, that's where it's got to start. If you want to make change in your community, whatever your skill is, whether it's writing, whether it's speaking, whether it's bringing people together, just being a great gifted person, being nice, being kind, people love you. Everybody has something that they can give and into a greater community. So organize, build that community. And with that community that you build, shoot for a collective goal.

Tayler:

Yes, I definitely agree. Organizing, build community, because like you said earlier, like you can't do this by yourself.

AJ:

So,

Tayler:

yeah.

AJ:

I'm tired now.

Tayler:

Right. I quote this all the time. I quote this book all the time. The Black Joy Project, if you can see it. There's a quote in here that talks about when you are listening to a choir, the members of the choir trust each other. So when somebody needs to take a breath, everybody else can keep going and we trust each other. So when we need to rest, like the choir still goes. So where can people find you and your work and keep up with you? And do you have anything that you want to update us on that you're doing?

AJ:

Okay. My big thing is, I'm on Instagram right now. You can find me on Instagram at M O S E S underscore O A K T R E E. That's M O S E S underscore O A K T R E E. Moses Oaktree. That's generally like where I live. as far as, upcoming events, this Friday, there's a, Baldwin event here, in Columbia that I would recommend everyone check out. That would be super cool. I'm a big fan of Baldwin. I think, I love Black intellectualism. I want more of it. Baldwin is that guy. Super cool. That's, this Friday and that's this Saturday. So I'll be out there this weekend. And, the next week, I actually,, I'm, I'm doing like an erotic poetry slam. So that will be fun. So if y'all are into like, you know, sexy poetry, Eric Jerome Dickey, like Zane, , that's going to be a really fun space, and, you know, all that's going to be posted up on, my social medias and everything, as well. And just, throughout this year, I, I'm looking to, put a website together, probably, like, I'm set to go to release my, poetry book this year. And I, I'm already talking with a couple of friends about, starting some recording, as far as, actually, like, recording some stuff because it would, it would suck if I've, lived my whole life, writing and, and speaking and, I passed and no one, no one could go back and hear me. And. A lot of, what I realized as far as poetry goes, you know, poets aren't here forever. and, they really do put their time and their energy to be the best writers they can be in a lot of cases. And, and at the very least, they have a message. But when they don't do the work of recording their message. It gets lost, and not everybody can respect how short life is and, and, and how important those voices are in the moment. So for those who are looking , to grow in, in the field or, or have any concept of it, they need a guide. And you recording your work. It gives them at least the breadcrumbs, especially if you're good. Everyone deserves that. And so that that's definitely something that I've set myself out to do this year is like, man, I should, you know, as much as I'm big on the oral tradition of things, maybe it's worth recording from time to time.

Tayler:

Still building that archive, which I've been learning a lot about archival work lately. So, yes, and I will be at the Baldwin event too. I'm not reading anything original. I'm just reading an essay by Baldwin, but I'll be there selling books too.

AJ:

Cool. I'm excited.

Tayler:

Yes. So, thank y'all so much for being a part of the Liberation is Lit podcast. If you have stories to share, want to suggest any topics, or just want to connect with us, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at Liberation is Lit, or visit our website at liberationislit. com. If you enjoyed the episode, please consider leaving a review, and remember your voice matters, and together, through the lens of stories, we're going to make a difference in the world. Until next time!