Curiosity of Defying Your Own Limitations (with Deesha Dyer)

In this episode, we interview author Deesha Dyer about her new book 'Undiplomatic' which explores themes of imposter syndrome and authenticity. Deesha shares her personal journey from growing up uncertain of her voice as a young Black girl to working in the White House and beyond. The conversation delves into the pressures of conforming to societal norms, the importance of representation, and the impact of identity on self-perception. Deesha also speaks candidly about her health challenges and the importance of staying grounded. 

00:00 Introduction to Liberation is Lit

00:43 Meet Deesha Dyer: From Philadelphia to the White House

02:21 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

04:39 The Role of Representation and Identity

09:38 Staying Grounded Amidst Success

16:32 Upcoming Projects and Future Plans

19:18 Getting Involved Locally and Making an Impact

23:06 Conclusion and Where to Find Us

Deesha’s Book:

Undiplomatic: How My Attitude Created the Best Kind of Trouble

Books Mentioned in This Episode:

You Are Your Best Thing: Vulnerability, Shame Resilience, and the Black Experience edited by Tarana Burke and Brené Brown 

Where to Find Deesha

deeshadyer.com

@deedyer267 on Instagram and @deeshadyer on X

Thank you for being part of the Liberation is Lit podcast! If you have stories to share, want to suggest topics, or just want to connect, find us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @liberationislit or visit our website at liberationislit.com. If you enjoyed the episode, please consider leaving a review! Remember, your voice matters, and together, through the lens of stories, we're making a difference in the world.

Transcript

Tayler: 0:05

Welcome to the Liberation is Lit podcast where the power of storytelling meets the force of social change. I'm your host, Tayler Simon, and in this podcast, we believe in the profound impact of stories. And I am here with writer, author, Deesha Dyer, and I'm so excited to talk about her new book, Undiplomatic, and all of the things around imposter syndrome. So Hi, Deesha. Hi, how are you? Good. How are you doing? I'm good. I'm good. It's so good to be here with you. Thank you. Yes. So to get us started, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your book, Undiplomatic?

Deesha: 0:50

Definitely. So a little bit about myself. I'm, born and raised in Philadelphia, PA and Hershey, Pennsylvania. So kind of between the two. And, you know, the book starts, you know, when I got the White House internship and when I was 31 years old, but it takes it back a little bit to my childhood, when as a young Black girl, I was just You know, unsure of who I was unsure of my voice. Always told that I was loud and I was disruptive. And that's kind of when my imposter syndrome kind of started, obviously, back then, I did not know that that's what it was called. And so throughout my just growing up and adolescence, I went to boarding school, went to college, dropped out of college, was a journalist for a little while, worked in the mall, do this and that. Always involved in the community before going back to school. In my early thirties at community college to be a social worker. And that was interrupted by, going to work at the White House for President Barak and Michelle Obama as an intern, in 2009, which then, gave me an 8 year career. through the White House through 2017 when they ended. When that was over, I went to work at the Ford Foundation, did a fellowship at Harvard, and then now have my own, business. But Undiplomatic really takes readers through that story, but more so puts on the front lines, about imposter syndrome, about being Black, about confidence in a real way that it's tangible and relatable for people.

Tayler: 2:22

I definitely related to it a lot as I was reading it and thinking about just being, I feel like as Black women, we are very untraditional in a lot of spaces because a lot of spaces aren't welcoming to us. But in the book you talk about in your career, you seem like untraditional in a, in many respects, especially That, going to school later and starting an internship in your early thirties. And I, I saw that I read that you had a lot of doubts yet you did it anyway. So I would ask what kept you going? What kept you going past? Even though there are those doubts in your head, you just kept moving forward.

Deesha: 3:06

You know, I honestly ask myself that question a lot because I get asked it a lot and I would love to come up with an answer that says either faith or, you know, just meditation or my courage, but I really, honestly, and I think a lot of Black women deal with this is we don't really have a choice. There is not a lot of choices when it comes to our survival sometimes when we come from certain situations or we go through different things or just existing. And so a lot of things that kept me going was just because I felt like I really had not a lot of choice. You know, I, there was no money, you know, in some pot somewhere for my rent or there wasn't no way to eat. There wasn't trust fund. There wasn't these things. And so I had to keep working and I had to keep going. I think that excelling, however, and deciding to go for a White House internship and deciding that I was going to do the best I could was out of, me shocking myself and saying, Oh my goodness, like you got this internship, what else can you do? And then I started to kind of become healthy, addicted to how high I could go and what I could achieve. And so that's what kind of kept me going after that was the curiosity of, of defying my own limitations. And when I was able to do that, I just was like, what else can I do? And how many more limitations can I defy? And that's kind of what kept me going.

Tayler: 4:32

That's I mean, I really like that the curiosity and define, define your own limitations. And I think something that I've been thinking about a lot lately is representation and how that kind of defines our limitations of what we think is possible. Do you think that. Representation plays a role in people thinking small about what is possible, why or why not?

Deesha: 5:03

I do. I think that sometimes we, look at it as we have to be the first or we have to be, you know, we have to get in the room, to be a represent, you know, a representative of something or to be in there for the voice. And I don't really believe that because sometimes we smush ourselves into spaces that are unwelcoming, that are not safe, that are not receiving of us, just to be in the room. We feel the responsibility a lot of times to the collective or to the community, and that is a hard thing to balance because sometimes it is at the sake of ourselves. And so I think that, you know, we don't have to always say we need to be the representation or the representative in a space that is not. healthy for us that is not safe for us. And so I think that sometimes we do think small because instead of, you know, us crafting our own things and doing our own things or, getting a collective of safe people together, we're like, let's push ourselves into a space that is that they don't want us. And I don't think that that's, that's the case. That's worth, that's worth it. Because when you get in that space, you will be defined by, you know, the, the power that they don't want to give you. Or you will be defined by, you know, the lack of what people can see that you can do, if that makes sense. And so I think that sometimes we do play small because we feel like we need to play by the rules that are already set instead of deciding that we're going to just set our own.

Tayler: 6:33

I really, I really like what you said and it can be scary in it's in itself trying to create something new and do your own thing instead of cramming yourself into these perspective boxes that everybody tells us that we need to cram ourselves into to be accepted. Or whatever, but it's, it's really scary. And when you, especially when you don't have that blueprint, like doing something new. And I want to ask you to how do you think identity plays a role in having that imposter syndrome?

Deesha: 7:12

Yeah, I mean, I think that identity plays a huge role because we are a society that is image based, and we are a society that is based on respectability politics, and we are a society that is limited by what we think is proper, what we think is beautiful, what we think is trendy, and a lot of that has to do with sometimes how someone identifies, I mean, we are a In a different phase now than we were years ago, where, we can see somebody who is, who identifies as transgender and, you know, keep it moving. Like, for me, anyways, I keep it moving, and I've always been that way, but before, you know, a lot of people will stop and make fun of, they cannot see how a, somebody who's trans can be a senator, Or it could be, representative in our government. And so I think that when you think of identity, I think that there are limitations that people put on it and it does have a lot to do with, imposter syndrome because we don't want to be ourselves sometimes because it is not accepted. It's easier for us to conform to what is acceptable, even if we don't identify it, even if we don't agree with it, because. We need to be successful or we feel like that is a line to success. And while I think that is a wrong way of doing things, I can understand people who buy into that because people have to work. People want to climb the ladder. People have to pay bills. People want to belong to a group. People want to be relevant. People want to be influencers or whatever else, which I won't knock any of that. And they feel as if the way to get that done is to Sometimes reject part of their identities are part of part of their authenticity, and they've seen it done a million times before that. So it's like, Oh, look at this person got to the top of the ladder by conforming this way and looking this way and doing this. So that must be the fast track to success instead of being like, You know what, like, I'm not gonna conform to that, and because I just can't, or that, for me, I was like, I don't know how to do that, I still don't know how to do that, sometimes I'm like, I don't know, I wish I knew how to do that, but I don't, which makes my track a little bit slower, because people don't, people are looking at me like, oh, she doesn't look the part, she doesn't, you know, and I'm just like, I get that, but, you know, my track will just have to be a little bit slower, and in the end, I'll still have myself. to look at in the mirror versus somebody else. And so, so yes, I think identity has a lot to do with it.

Tayler: 9:39

And I think you touched on this a little bit, but what keeps you grounded in the work that you do?

Deesha: 9:46

Yeah, I would say, I'll be honest with you. I don't, I think that the perception of me is that I'm very grounded, to be honest. I think that if you would ask my husband, he would tell you the opposite. It's funny when we go somewhere and people are just like, you're so kind, you're so all these things and he's just like, these people know how much you freak out at home or like, how messy your room is, how things are all over the place and I think that, you know, I'll be honest, I think a lot of, things that keep me grounded right now are my health, my physical health. I have type 2 diabetes. I've had blood pressure. I have high cholesterol. And so, Some of these things that I know came from these illnesses, that came from stress, that came from trying to conform, that came from trying to overprove, and overprove, and overprove. Some of these things, I believe, resulted in physical ailments. And so, for me, I no longer have a choice, if I want to keep living, to live in a, in a way, That makes me so stressed and makes me feel like I need to keep up with the Joneses and I need to do this, like I can't do that anymore because it is killing me, you know, physically and so I think that that has a lot to do with, I would love to say some other again, better answer for you, but I'll be honest that has a lot to do with, the changes that I've made because, people talk about diet, people talk about exercise, people talk about meditation and all these things, but no one talks about the everyday stressors of life, of just trying to make it and, and when you're trying to do that for 46 years, it is going to cause you to be extremely stressed out and extremely burnt out and that then shows up in the way you eat, the way you sleep and everything else. And so what keeps me grounded, I'll say, okay. Is the fact that I want to be here tomorrow, and I want to be here to vote for Kamala Harris, and I want to be here to see her take office, and I want to be here to go on vacation with my husband and see my nieces graduate, and that's all dependent on me deciding that I'm no longer letting things happen. get to me to the point that I'm going to be physically sick. So yeah,

Tayler: 11:55

I've been thinking about, urgency lately because, so I do Liberation is Lit full time and sometimes the money is not there. So I always feel like the sense of urgency, like, what else can I do? What else can I do? And it's a lot rooted in moving to. Other people that I could make it on my own financially. So I definitely get that pressure that you put on yourself to even rooted in imposter syndrome. And like you said earlier, thinking about not being chipping away parts of yourself to fit in these boxes, how much stress that causes and thinking about letting go of that urgency and just. Like you said, being here another day, and not letting that cause physical ailments.

Deesha: 12:48

Yeah, what I will say though too, Tayler, is I will say that I, you know, I understand what you're saying, and I don't like you being that predictive, because I would love for you to get paid and make a living off of what you love to do and what your calling is. But I also will say, That if I had to go back to working at Target or I had to go do some consulting and events or whatever to make ends meet, yes, I would be disappointed because, yeah, that's disappointments a natural, you know, a natural feeling, but I, but I don't think there's a shame in that, you know what I mean? So I think that when people go out on their own as entrepreneurs or, media person, whatever they want to do. I feel like there is a shame attached that, , you need to make a full time living off of that. I think that is the goal, but the road to get there takes some time. You know what I'm saying? So I think that I'm learning that too. Like, yes, I had this high profile role, but But that doesn't mean that money is pouring in. So sometimes I've got to take clients that are like a little bit, not that I want to, but I do. Cause I'm like, I have to pay my bills at the end of the day, because you don't want to be stressed out about money and then add that to your whole thing too. So, I think you build up to, being a full time entrepreneur, a podcast host or anything else, and never be ashamed of having to use unemployment or , get a job somewhere, you know, just in the meantime, you know, but I. Can understand that because again, people think that we all have it made in different ways. And you're like, Nope, I'd be budgeting like everybody else. So yeah. Nope.

Tayler: 14:20

Which is so interesting because We go through these like emotions of imposter syndrome, like they're going to figure me out. And other people meanwhile are watching you be like, Oh yeah, she got her stuff together. And it's just like, baby, if you could

Deesha: 14:34

see me home. Yes, exactly. And I think that that's why I try to be so transparent and honest, even to a fault of my reputation or to a fault of people being like, she is, she's not whatever, because I want people to understand. That my definition of success is not, I could make it on my own as an entrepreneur. My definition of success is that, I just keep getting up and I keep trying and that I'm still living. You know what I'm saying? So sometimes I think, we have all these success stories. you know, measurements and I appreciate them and I love goals and I love all those things. But I'm like, sometimes you got to take a step back and be like, the fact that I'm still living four years later on my business that I started in 2020 during the pandemic, we've had losses. We have not been always profitable. But the fact that my family, my husband and I had both been able to maintain a home, maintain health insurance, all of that while doing this on this business is an accomplishment, through the losses, so I think I've just learned to appreciate that because when we front, Like, think about when we front that we have it all together, then you have other people watching you, and other people are gonna think that, and then think something's wrong with them, that they're struggling, and then they're gonna start frontin too, and now we all frontin And it's just like, ain't none of us, like, listen, we all trying to make it out here. Like, I'm, you know what I'm saying, we all are trying, and I am thankful, especially to any Black woman, or any Black femme that identifies, That they are still here to tell the story because it's not easy out here, so yeah, yeah,

Tayler: 16:09

I definitely agree. I definitely agree. And that's why I'm so big on vulnerability too. And that's why I really resonated with undiplomatic because it was so vulnerable and talking about like, yes, I'm in these spaces, but this what's happening inside. And I love that vulnerability and that transparency. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. So, what are some of your upcoming projects or things you got coming down the pipeline?

Deesha: 16:38

That's a great question. And so some of the upcoming projects are continuing to promote the book and continuing to kind of be out there. We are going to be, unrolling. More an imposter to impact kind of, workshop and some things like that. So a website around that, that kind of takes off of the book. We also are going to be, hopefully, I'm trying to maneuver my head. It's one of those things that we just talked about, like, how do I do this? You know, being more. Present on social media around the election on, you know, everyday people getting involved, not feeling like they don't belong in politics or public service using my story from a city level from a school board level to a Capitol Hill presidential level. So. Really trying to get that education out there to make all those people who is a first timer in politics right now not feel like they don't belong in it because they've been moved by whatever is going on, whether it's, Kamala Harris or other things, they've been moved by it. And then they're just like, , I'm a chef at a restaurant. How do I fit in? So. I want to make sure that people feel so I'm trying to work that and trying to really get my speaking career up a little bit. So I think that those are some things I'm working on and trying to keep the business alive as always. And so, and so yeah, those are some upcoming things that I have going on.

Tayler: 17:56

I love that. And something I really liked about undiplomatic too, was that ease and accessibility of the Watching you navigate like politics and not just working specifically in the White House and all of the social aspects that at that, but just the context of being in D. C. in general, and just navigating it as this. Yeah,

Deesha: 18:22

and it's all in hindsight now, like I look back and I'm like, oh, there are things I wish I would have, I wish I would have been more out there on the scene and got to know more people, but I was scared I had my job and I was focused on my job and I was like, I don't have the attention span to do anything else, like go out to parties or go get to know people at networking things because I was so scared. I was like, I don't know these people. And, I don't want to be found out. And so the more I go out and people get to know me, the more they'll be like, Oh, she's like a normal chick. And people would always say to me, you're so normal, you're so normal. Which was a compliment, but also was not as, high status as I feel like the job should have been because I'm so normal. So it was kind of just like, Oh, she's just normal Deesha. And I'd be like, yeah, I am. But then I'd be like, But you're disrespecting me too. You know what I mean? Like about my job or whatever else. And so I think that navigating D. C. was tough for me. It's still is.

Tayler: 19:15

What are you reading now that's really made an impact on you? And also what, Are, what is some advice that you have for listeners who want to make a difference in their community, especially during this election?

Deesha: 19:30

Yeah, definitely. So I think what I'm reading right now for the second time is, You Are Your Best Thing by Tarana Burke and Brene Brown. And really I'm reading it, Mainly for Tarana, but, uh, also the stories that are in there. I just feel like there's different stories by different authors in there. And so it's not like, you know, a book by one author. And the themes of each of those stories is so prevalent and so good that I just love reading it and I love getting a different perspective And it's so real from all the different authors that are in there so there's that and the advice that I would have for anybody wanting to get involved Is you don't have to follow the mainstream Of how to get involved in politics, public service or community or anything else. You can take what you love and go to a community like the Y or Big Brothers Big Sisters or Homeless Shelter, whatever you want to do and apply that skill there. I mean, There is always people who need help with like, does the communications people need help getting a, a press release out? Do you enjoy, throwing birthday parties for kids? Can you go to the shelter and do that? I would say to get involved in any which way you can, that makes you feel comfortable, makes you feel loved, makes you feel like you're contributing, but also doesn't burn you out. Some people, they don't have time, but they have money. You can just give money Because these movements need money. But I think what I would say is, I am a local person. I'm a hyper local person. So you don't have to get involved in all these national, organizations and national things, which there are some amazing ones, but think about the things that are in your community, the things that are in your backyard, the organizations that are foot shoulders every single day for everyday people. who were getting paid between 40, 000 and 50, 000 to 60, 000 a year. They're fundraising for their salary. They're fighting to keep the doors open, and serve families, and serve people, and all these things. They are the ones that need your dollars. They are the ones that need your help. These movements, these, these mutual aids. Don't forget about those in the, in the span of the national and legit things are asking for money and asking for time. If you can give to both, I always say that, but just don't forget about those in our backyards, even the city council, the school board members, the school board members have such a fight, you know what I mean? So learn about them. So that's what I would say is like, you know, again, I'm a local person. So I would say, that's where my heart lies.

Tayler: 22:01

Yes. Cause people forget. That you can vote outside every four years for the presidential election. So getting involved and really niching down is how you can see a bigger impact too. So.

Deesha: 22:17

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I would say, too, that, it's important for us to know when to tap out. It's hard on social media because you see, everybody's at the DNC convention, and everyone's, like, reporting from it, and this, that, and third, and that's wonderful, but, for me, my grandmother just passed, a couple weeks ago, so I'm not fully present. Or engaged in like all the stuff happening this week because I'm like my mind's somewhere else. I need a second I need to be and that's okay when you have personal things to balance it sometimes i'm like I can only be on social media for an hour before i'm like I gotta tap out so don't ever feel like you're missing something What is for you will not miss you by so you're not like missing something, you know So that's what I would say. For sure when it comes to that

Tayler: 23:01

And I'm so sorry for your loss. Thank

Deesha: 23:03

you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you.

Tayler: 23:06

Thank you so much again for being. Podcast. Where can people find you when you decide to dip your back to social media and things? Yes.

Deesha: 23:15

Yes, they can find me at, d Dyer 2 6 7 on Instagram. It's D-E-E-D-Y-E-R 2 6 7. And then it's just under Deesha Dyer on every other platform. I'm just trying to get back on TikTok and understand it. So that might take me a second, but that's where I'm at as well as my website. It's just Deesha dyer.com.

Tayler: 23:36

Awesome. Well, I'll link all those in the show notes and thank y'all so much for joining the liberation is lit podcast. If you want to connect, suggest any guests that we have, or if you have stories you want to share, you can connect with us online. On Instagram, TikTok, Facebook at LiberationIsLit. com. And at LiberationIsLit on all the socials. And I just want to thank everybody for tuning in. And remember, through the lens of stories, we're going to make a difference. Until next time.