Heal Your Story (with Nicki Pappas)

In this episode, we speak with author and poet Nicki Pappas. Nicki shares her experiences with spiritual abuse within a cult-like church and her path to deconstruction and self-discovery. Nicki opens up about her writing process, her self-published books, and the importance of slowing down, being grounded, and healing from trauma. The conversation also touches on Nicki's exploration of psilocybin for healing, her current projects, and living authentically. 

00:00 Welcome to the Liberation is Lit Podcast

00:40 Nicki Pappas: Journey to Storytelling

02:50 Leaving the Church and Finding Freedom

03:33 Rediscovering Writing and Theater

09:18 The Impact of Spiritual Abuse

17:11 Self-Publishing and Writing Journey

26:25 Upcoming Projects and Future Plans

30:24 Books and Influences

33:52 Advice for Making a Positive Impact

37:02 Where to Find Nicki Pappas

Nicki’s Books

As Familiar As Family

Becoming Egalitarian

Coming of Age and Coming Out: Stories of Repressed and Reclaimed Sexual Desire

Reflections from a Former Evangelical

More Reflections from a Former Evangelical

Books mentioned in the episode

Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants by Robin Wall Kimmerer

Unmasking Autism: Discovering the New Faces of Neurodiversity by Devon Price

Where to find Nicki

Instagram

nickipappas.com

Substack

Broadening the Narrative Podcast

So You Think You Can Date Podcast

Thank you for being part of the Liberation is Lit podcast! If you have stories to share, want to suggest topics, or just want to connect, find us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @liberationislit or visit our website at liberationislit.com. If you enjoyed the episode, please consider leaving a review! Remember, your voice matters, and together, through the lens of stories, we're making a difference in the world.

Transcript

0:04

Hey y'all. Welcome to the Liberation is Lit Podcast, where the power of storytelling telling meets the force of social change. I'm your host, Tayler Simon, and in this podcast we believe in the profound impact of stories. And I am so excited to be joined here with my friend on the other side of the podcast, mic Nicki Pappas, author. Poet, a bunch of things that we'll probably get into today. So, hey Nicki. How are you today? Great. Thank you for having me today. I'm excited to be here. Yes. So to kick us off, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey to becoming storyteller through writing and theater? Yeah, how would I describe myself? And I would say I'm a risk taker. Not that I necessarily enjoy taking risks, but that I have experienced the most growth and the biggest shifts in my timeline when I've taken risks. And two ways of that for me were the writing and the acting. So if I could just give a little background, I'd say that my life changed when I took the risk of leaving home for college, which might not seem like a big deal to people, but you know, it was huge for me growing up in poverty in the rural south. Many of my friends never left, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it's like I never felt like I belonged there. And then I look back and I was like, oh, I was kind of always in this process of leaving. Then during college I got connected to a kind of culty church. And I was there for 10 years and that really became my family and the place that I spent a lot of my time. That was my circle of support, and it just got smaller and smaller as it became those people. And I hadn't cultivated relationships outside of the church. Which is kind of a function of culty behavior, right? Is you wanna keep everything in house and we are a family and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But when you're a dysfunctional family, that's where some problems can, right? And so it just started to get to a point where I couldn't even trust myself anymore, and that is where some of the breakdown starts to happen. And then I started reading about and learning about all these things that I had been taught one way about race first and then about gender. And I started being like, oh, well the church, you know, that I was going to, we say we're this welcoming place. But what that meant was, I mean, you have to believe the things we believe and show up the way we want you to show up. And so then I thought, you know, I forever the optimist, it's like people just don't know. And if they know then dot, dot dot. So tried to have some conversations with the pastor and that meeting resulted in me being directly spiritually abused when I tried to say. Hey, here's some ways that the church could maybe change. And so then my life changed again when at the age of 29, I took the risk to leave church. To leave that church, and after being spiritually abused, and I realized that even though here I am, I'm about to lose my entire community, I'd rather be alone and free than quote, doing life as we would say. People who think that it's God's good design for women to be submissive, for example, since that was one of the biggest things. So in leaving church, I gave myself permission to really start asking questions, lean into curiosity, and pursue my own passions because I didn't have an identity outside of who I was for the church. And so I've always loved to write, you know, I look back and I found journals from when I was a kid. And throughout my adolescence, and so I connected back in my thirties, started connecting back to writing. Started writing poetry, short stories, other types of writing, and I would enter them into competitions. And I also started going to therapy and the therapist that I was going to at the time was like, keep writing. This is helping you heal your story. So that's kind of how I got into the, the writing. And then in addition to that, I started podcasting. And in August, 2020, I launched my previous podcast, broadening the narrative where I would just interview guests who were broadening those narratives. I was taught about race, gender, sexuality, the bible, whatever from my previous religious context, and being a podcast host. Having people value those conversations that I was having really helped boost my confidence because it was like, yeah, these are stories that like what you're doing, like. People have these stories and like, let's be telling them. And so then I was like, okay, I feel more confident as I'm learning more about myself. And that led me to my first love, which was theater. Like, you know, I love writing, but theater was my first love. In the sense of, I was never in productions as a kid. It was like the things that we did at church, you know, so the Christmas pageant and all that. But I was like, your girl is Mary. Okay. Cast me as Mary. If you want me to be happy. Do not make me just be an angel in the choir of angels. No, I, I'm meant to stand out, you know? Oh my gosh. And, sidebar, I auditioned for to be Sandy for Grease in high school. Didn't get it. I was just like backup dancer number four. So I did like a few weeks, or I mean a few days of rehearsal and then I like dropped out because I was like, if I'm not Sandy, then I don't wanna do it. And so didn't handle that the best. So with theater though, getting back into theater I saw that there were some auditions coming up for a local theater for a show, and I had done so much work on myself through therapy and other means that I was like, even if I don't get cast, I wanna prove to myself that I can show up for myself in this way and put myself out there in this way, and not take the rejection personally if I'm rejected. And I was cast as actress number three, and that included over 10 characters and all these various vignettes. So it was quite the undertaking for a first performance. And I always joke that there were six characters and six of us showed up. So by default I got cast, but I didn't care. The director says no, I could have called in more people I saw. Your potential and what you were capable of before you even saw it. So that's really sweet. And then one of my fellow cast members invited me to a different group, another local theater, main Street Theater, which we talked about when we were together at the Pride. Festival here in Rock Hill. And so that got me connected to Main Street Theater where I work with local writers and actors and we produce plays that are kind of written in-house and we workshop them together. And it sounds almost too good to be true. But you know, I almost didn't even go that first night 'cause I was so nervous right after. My experiences with groups of people, it was like, oh my gosh, am I gonna go to another group and what's gonna happen here? But took some deep breaths, got over that imposter syndrome in a way, or like invited it in and then just was like, okay, now let's go anyway. Let's do it anyway. So over the past couple years, I've just really tried to open myself up again to new people and to this, I've written more plays than I can count with the group I've acted, I've been in like. I've had some of my own plays produced and then you know that I produced my first set of shows and directed a show. So quite the journey leaving evangelicalism, it's like my story post religion even in a way is full of all these risks and taking one, leading to another. And even when things don't go the way that I wanted them to go, I don't look at the rejection quote unquote, or the failure. In the same way anymore. I'm like, they are survivable. I will get through it and what am I gonna learn? I see these as valuable teachers for me and you know, I'm not currently recording podcasts or broadening the narrative, but listeners can check that out. I also did another podcast so you think you can date. When I started dating for the first time in 15 years as a queer poly millennial mom. And it, it's, it's fun full of lots of ventures. I'm currently not dating, you know, the, everything's closed down for the moment, but. Anyways, I guess the too long didn't read, or didn't listen, would be that I'm a writer, an author, a podcaster, an actor, but I'm really trying to lean more into, more than all those things. I am. Let me get this right, a human being, learning to quote, relax toward the things that feel possible. That's what my CoStar, astrology app told me. And so I'm like, if I just get one shot at this. I wanna do everything that makes me come alive. I wanna tell my story and I wanna make an impact here. And, that idea of coming alive comes from the popular Howard Thurmond quote. Don't ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive and go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive. There we go. I love that and I can definitely tell, like you said, you were forever the optimist and star the show and I definitely get that from your big bubbly, personality. And, my next question is. Why do you focus on topics such as deconstruction through your writing, but also you mentioned something earlier about the reason why you left the church, and I'm about to deviate from my questions a little bit. But can you talk about , what spiritual abuse is and how that affected. You at your core about like your big bubbly personality, and how that spiritual abuse led to the deconstruction. And you don't have to go into detail about how you were abused, but just talking general about what, what are some signs that people may find in their own lives that they may be spiritually abused? Mm. That's such a good question. I would say any system that sets up a power dynamic that's rooted in a hierarchy. That is what was happening, where you have a central figure, in this case, a quote, lead pastor who doesn't have accountability. You know, I, I am not anti churches, you know, I'm currently identifying as an atheist, but I'm like, Hey, whatever helps people put more love in the world, go put more love in the world. I, I don't care what it is. If you're putting love in the world, I'm all for it. But in my case. Especially if you look at how I was 19, when I started the church, started going to this particular church. So I would say some signs to look for is who's attracted to the system, right? Like if it's a church who, who's going there? We really focused on college students in the beginning, and you think about that being a really vulnerable demographics because these kids are out on their own for the first time. So I won't go more into it than that, but you know, if you have someone who, and I want to give the benefit of the doubt in a way, this person really believe that the message he has to say is the message people need to hear. I believe that he fully believes that. But then if you isolate yourself and you keep yourself from being able to take any sort of feedback from others. Then again, you are setting yourself up for a really unhealthy dynamic. And Diane Langberger, she said something to the effect of, it's always the responsibility of the pastor slash shepherd, to repair the relationship always. And so if you have a pastor who can't even acknowledge there's a problem, then you have a pastor who's never gonna repair the relationship. And as I mentioned earlier, I really lost trust in myself. So it's another thing like the isolating nature of you just do so much with this group of people and they become your family. But again, examine what does family mean. And if family is rooted in some of the things that I heard, for example, were, we need more volunteers in the kids' area. We always need more volunteers in the kids' area and we just need bodies to do that. Even if you don't want to, even if it's not what you feel called to, I don't like to out the trash, but sometimes in a family you just do things you don't wanna do. Now again, just kind of examine. Who is being led to believe that they need to be doing things they don't wanna be doing? Is the pastor doing things he doesn't wanna be doing or is he absolved from that? And I, I Tayler this is gonna be a tiny bit of an aside, but I've been learning more about my own brain and realizing that I am neurodivergent in some way. I've been reading this book, unmasking autism and rigid beliefs and a belief system like people, like autistic people can be attracted to that because it gives you a certain set of rules to follow and all of that. But also you think about different personality types and your own background if you're a people pleaser or all these things. I, my, my brain, can't it, it, I'm struggling to keep up with all the things I wanna say, but it's a situation that's ripe for abuse. When you have vulnerable people, college students, women, you know, who are being told your sole purpose, really examine what the theology is being taught too. Like I was being told that Eve was created to be Adam's helper. And the best way, this was from the mouth of the pastor. The best way my wife helps me is by bearing our children. And so when you're reduced to this assembly line for producing progeny, right, it really causes you to question, you don't have any identity for yourself outside of what you've been told The message from the church is, and so I would say I focus so much on deconstruction, or I have, I am gonna be moving away from that. But I did for I, it was such a big part, evangelical Christianity was such a big part of my life for so long. It impacted this, my whole personality identity, really trying to fit this mold of what they wanted me to be led to me being a shell of who I once was.'cause you talk about like the bubbliness, that's kind of who I was before the church. And then the church really beat me down in a lot of ways, caused me to doubt and question myself. I know so many other people are in that right now. They're on the cusp of being able to get free. And so I think about all these people I love and know have been impacted in some way, and I'm still healing from the damage, not only being on the receiving end of it, but you can't come out of it unscathed, believing those things and perpetuating them too. So I need to take responsibility and accountability for, hey. I taught these damaging beliefs too, and now I, I want to repair the harm I've caused. So through my writing, you know, I wanna be transparent too about the highs and the lows of deconstruction, because I think a common misconception could be, or something that gets kind of thrown back at people who are deconstructing, is if you're experiencing struggles, then it's like you shouldn't have left the church. But it's like. No, and there's highs too. And again, I go back to I'd rather be alone out here in a way and free than with these people who were like, this is God's good design for you. And so I would just say to the extent that someone is curious and willing to engage with my writing, whether that be like a Substack Post or a book like purchasing a book. I want my writing to help heal them. Like they might not engage in a conversation with me about it. They might not be ready for that, but they might do these other things. Like I said, purchase a book, read a post, and that can have ripple effects for their healing. Because yeah, I just, I see all the damage that has been done by the teaching to myself and to people I love. And I don't know if I said enough about spiritual abuse, but I could talk, you know, at length more about it. But I'll stop there for now. So, yeah. No, that was great. And I love those warning signs and I taught the signs of you may be in a re abusive relationships for a really long time. In my other life. And a lot of that tracks about just abuse in general is the power dynamics using a pattern behavior to enact power and control over someone. And that can definitely happen within a church context. and so I love how you use your writing to heal your own stories, but also, inspire other people to like be curious about their own journey through your story. And so I would love to hear more about your journey as a self-published writer. What's that been like and what keeps you grounded in your work as an author? Such good questions. I'm gonna unblur my background 'cause I'll show Oh, don't look behind me though. I shouldn't have blurred. It, it's fine. This is real life. I'm in this messy closet, so my first book is over here, is As Familiar As Family Leaving The Toxic Religion I was groomed for. So the church that I was just talking about in that pastor, that was the impetus for this book and about seven years prior to releasing it. I had written like an early, early draft, and it obviously went through so many changes because I went through so many changes and yeah, so in the book I really do explore toxic religion and all that stuff we were just talking about. It's like all these ways that the church, well, I, I go back to my family of origin. The ways that I was groomed for toxic religion because in my early story, the abuse I experienced there really set me up for accepting abuse in other forms. And I chronicle my journey to really finding my voice in a way out of that church, which began when I understood that all those things, the power dynamics, the narcissism, the spiritual abuse, the emotional detachment in the church were as familiar as family. So that's where that comes from. So I wrote the book. I met Kim Marsh who founded the open book company, and I just felt all this magic on our first Zoom call together with her and hired her to be my editor. And with her support I also had a beta reader team to give me early feedback and then a launch team when the book was getting ready to go out. And so that was me self-publishing the first book. And so, yeah, for anyone who is going a self-publishing route, I just think it's so good to have. Things like beta readers and or a launch team, because otherwise it can be a really isolating experience to be a writer. But it doesn't have to be it, it doesn't have to be isolating. And I also joined the open book company and they have writing circles. So I would be on a call with other writers and that felt like I was connected to community as I wrote the next year. I self-published my second memoir, so becoming egalitarian, our journey from Hierarchy toward Mutuality and it features contributions from my then partner Steven. So we got married when I was 20 and a part of the kinda culty Church and becoming egalitarian examines our relationship and how we operated from that male headship model. And then how we moved toward a more equitable partnership. And around that same time I was also doing my poetry collection. So I've got, reflections from a former Evangelical, and these were poems that I actually wrote in 2019 and then revisited and edited and worked on those. And then I was like, now let's do more reflections. So reflections and more reflections from a former Evangelical, it is like, I'm not reinventing the wheel here, we're just gonna. Keep it going. And then my latest book that came out is Coming of Age and Coming Out Stories of Repressed and Reclaimed Sexual Desire. And it's my final memoir closing out this trilogy of memoirs, and it's a collection of stories that start in my childhood and go through my adolescence. And culminate in coming out in my thirties as queer and non-monogamous. And again, my coach and my editor, Kim Marsh, who I mentioned earlier who founded the open book company, she says, we write to understand. And she got that from someone else, you know? And it's that idea of by writing, I have grown to understand myself and my life and why I do what I do. So much better. And you know, I would say I've been writing what I know, but I've also been writing what I want to know more about in relation to how I show up in the world and how I want to show up. And you asked what keeps me grounded and I would say two big things, slowing down and being outside. So to go back to like spiritual abuse. Let me say that a hustle culture and one that is all about what do you come do and that glorifies just work, work, work for the Lord, and you burn out. That is spiritual abuse. When you are being treated as a commodity or as like a cog in a machine, and your personhood is being stripped away, you're being objectified and you're being. Expected to operate in a way that's almost like a guide, which I heard someone else define narcissism as trying to live without limits. And so I liked that a lot. So no, I am not a demigod. I don't have endless whatever. So I slow down and I try to get outside. So a few months after leaving the church, I referenced before we started going to this other church and they invited a therapist to come in and speak on a Sunday morning. So it was really beautiful and she delivered this message about the need for rest. As well as the restorative nature of water. She talked about water a lot. And so I decided like I'm gonna slow way down in my life. And that has gone and rippled into every area of my life. Like, how much can I just try to slow down? And that has actually benefited me creatively. So I started going to a local lake at that time on Wednesdays, and I would just look at the water. I would just sit there and watch the fish. Watch the birds and do absolutely nothing. Okay. And that just simply sitting at the water improved my whole mindset. And I also started daily breathing and meditation and journaling and so. Some people might be like, okay, but like what does that have to do with writing or creating art? And I understand, and I can only speak for myself, but for me personally, I can say that all of those things help me show up to the page and write and be more creative from a place that is peaceful, that is gentle with myself, that is mindful and that is grounded. Sure. It's like I can crank out material when I'm stressed out, when I'm harsh with myself, when I'm scattered, when I feel untethered, it's like, why would I keep doing that? I don't want to do that anymore. It's like, I've tried that method. I don't wanna do that anymore. Been there, done that. And so even though this dominant culture around us may suggest that, hey. This approach is lazy, right? It's like that hasn't been my experience and I wish I knew who to give credit to for this, but I read somewhere, I'm gonna read it. We waste years because we won't waste hours. We waste years because we won't waste hours. And in the wasting of hours, I came to realize none of it is ever actually wasted. Okay? And instead of viewing all those things that I do. For my grounding, instead of viewing those as a waste of time, I'm like, oh no. They are absolutely essential for having a successful and productive writing time, but also success and productivity are experienced differently when I come to my writing with this grounded mindset versus, versus like a hurried mindset. And I wanna also say the last piece, I like the material that I create and I like the person I am. While creating it, when I have that gentleness towards myself and when I'm operating from that, right, I'm more authentic about what I'm writing. I'm more aligned with who I am. And who I want to be. And so in place of that hustling, it's like I'm healing, I'm showing up for myself. I'm being faithful in all that I do, even if it doesn't result in a book deal or accolades or wealth. But I'll also say your girl is super not opposed to those income, those outcomes. So you know. I don't have to have those things, but I'm also like I would, I would like those things. I would like the book deal and the accolades and to make money off my writing. So both and both. And. No, I definitely feel that, and I love what you said about just liking who you are. When you show up to the page when you're gentle with yourself.'cause am in this place where I'm just like, what do you mean?

I'm laying in bed till 8: 25:44

00 AM I used to wake up at 5 45 in the morning, go to the gym, be to work by eight. Why can't I have some of this energy and I'm. Trying to be okay with slowing down. And a lot of my work has gotten a lot better now that I'm just adding a lot of ease into my life. So Yeah. I love that approach and how it just like, it's, it's quality over. The amount of time you're spending grinding. So you don't want to come from a place of being ground down you wanna be earth, grounded, but not grinded from the grind. Yeah. so diametrically opposed to everything we just talked about, what are your some, some of your upcoming projects? Yes. Okay, so my last poetry book will be aptly titled Final Reflections from a Former Evangelical I Know. So Creative over here and it it'll come out soon and sort of close out that. Trilogy of poetry. I'm also currently trying to get an agent, so to the point of like, I'd like to get a book deal, for my latest work that I've been writing, it is called Practicing Presence Healing Trauma with the Magic Mushroom. And so I'm working on writing those first 10 pages. Because a lot of agents now are asking for the first 10 pages. So I just wanna say, I'll give my, I'm gonna practice, give you my little spiel. That practicing presence is for the over 14 million US adults who have had at least one major depressive episode with severe impairment according to the National Institute of Mental Health. Right? And so, like me, those people may have already tried. Therapy or something else. Now, I've never been on an S-R-A-S-R-I, but maybe they've been on a serotonin re-uptake inhibitor. I had to do all this research for what these things actually mean, so I'm gonna talk about 'em. And so people are desperate for a solution, right? And so I, through this book, wanna uncover what plant medicine could be able to offer people. Practicing presence. I just, I don't know. I'm in love with this book. It's broken up by categories where I explore my relationship first to nature. Like if you imagine a set of concentric circles, so starting with nature, then we move into activism and advocacy, family and friends, food and exercise, sex and intimacy, and then myself. And each of those is where I outline what my relationship was like before the psilocybin and after the psilocybin. You know, the book is not medical advice and I will go on record saying that, you know, these are still schedule one drugs, which is bananas, but this is the world we live in. By sharing my personal stories, I hope to remove some of that stigma that has come from the war on drugs, quote unquote war on drugs propaganda, and encourage others to get curious about a modality that they may have previously overlooked for their healing. I don't believe psychedelics to be this cure all like external panacea if people have been neglecting their inner work. But I have experienced the power of them when paired with that deep inner work to bring me the healing that I've needed. I will just say, like I put in years of preparation through therapy, through research, setting my intentions about it before going to the medicine to prepare me to, to partake with the medicine, and then to write the book that I, I am writing about that journey to heal my trauma with the magic mushroom. And my last little thing is I recently went to Iceland for a writing workshop and spent almost a week in Iceland, which was just so good. Like, take me back to Iceland. And so I'm working on some fiction manuscripts from that, but those are still in very early development, so yeah. That is amazing because I feel like. You? Well, first of all, the war on drugs was very racist and classist and has origins in that. And thinking about natural alternatives, but also. The reason why there's such a stigma against drugs is because people use them to disconnect. So I love how you are talking about how to use them as a tool to connect to yourself instead of like disconnecting and running away from that inner work. So I'm so excited for this book and I hope you get an agent for it. Me too. crossed for it, Thank you. All great writers are avid readers. Hmm. has there been, I know you mentioned one book, has there been anything else that you've been reading lately that's left an impact on you? I just finished braiding Sweet Grass, the very well known book by Robin Wall, Kimer, and I took away so much wisdom that is still changing me and my relationship to plants, to trees, to nature, right? So I'd heard so many people talk about it for so long and how. Much, that book changed their lives. And then over the past, oh gosh. I don't even know how long now, but since my deconstruction journey started, I've been influenced by indigenous teachings and wisdom, which I had at one point because of the indoctrination of white supremacy and white evangelicalism, I had discounted those teachings. Now I see them as like vital to our healing. And so yeah, healing my relationship to the land through the things I've been learning. And so while working on my book proposal and writing those first 10 pages of my book. I was like, let me read Braiding Sweetgrass. And it was just so fitting to, to be reading that while thinking about what was my relationship like before Psilocybin to the land and what has it been like since? And yeah, I'm currently reading Unmasking Autism, discovering the New Faces of Neurodiversity, which is by Devon Price. Because yeah, I've been wondering for a few years now, like, am I autistic? And yeah, and just seeing the ways that. Society makes it really difficult for an adult to get a diagnosis and so a lot of adults end up self, I self diagnosing and so I have been, yeah, for the past couple years really revisiting a lot of stories from my childhood and even seeing the ways that I maybe, like if I am autistic, the idea of putting on this mask is saying I don't wanna be seen as. Lazy, so I'm gonna overcompensate, you know?'cause it was like all these negative things you associate with someone who's autistic. And if you started to see those traits in yourself or see how people responded to those, trying to overcompensate for them by showing up in the world in these ways and doing these things, but how that leads to burnout and how really it's not sustainable for anyone. So there's that. Definitely. And I feel like the rise in TikTok has been influential in that because it's just sharing their everyday experiences. Yeah. I follow, oh, I can't remember the name of the page. I'll link it in the show notes. But Savvy, he is this black autistic man and he just talks about how like. He just unmasked and like, you could just see the joy on his face, just him being himself and like the first video I saw from him, just seeing like him talk about unmasking, like crying I always feel such immense joy seeing people be who they really are and not have to wear a mask. And I feel like what would be, what would the state of the world be if. didn't feel like they had to mask and they could just be themselves and how much joy and love could be in the world, even from those who use power and control to. Control of their people. How much could we all benefit if everybody felt the need just to be themselves and didn't feel the need to control everybody? So I love that so much. And so my last question is, what advice would you offer listeners who wanna make a positive impact in their communities? So obviously this applies to more than just dating, but something I went into dating with was, I will be who I am and you be who you are and we can just be who we are together. Like that was one of my guiding principles is. Just be who we are in that authentic living, one of the biggest ways that I think you can make a positive impact on your community. And like you were saying, the world, you know, but if we're starting with like what we can just tactically and just be there with is just live authentically. Tell your story, you know? And I would say people don't have to do it on a podcast. They don't have to write a book. They don't have to do it in this big public way. But there is power in naming what we've experienced with people who have earned our trust and who we feel safe with. And if you can be authentic with them about your experience. And I think when we are open and gentle with ourselves and nonjudgmental with ourselves. Our own stories and can hold a lot of space for that. It gives other people permission to extend openness to themselves, to be gentle with themselves and to not be judgemental about their own stories. Because where shame is, you know,'cause some people would be like, no, I think some people need to be shamed. But I think just without any. Extra caveats around it. Just saying, I think that what we, what we put into the world, and if we are aligned, then that can help other people put that into the world. And I think that as we are more tender with ourselves, we are gonna naturally be more tender with one another. And I think that that will make an impact in our communities if people feel safe and secure. Like that's what I want. I want people to feel safe and secure with me. And that I have earned their trust, and that even if I do have to push back on something that they've said or done, they're gonna know it comes from a place of love and vice versa. Out here trying to, you know, like obviously it's not just a blanket statement of just be gentle and there's no accountability, so yeah. Yes, I definitely feel that because one of the things, in the. Sexual assault and domestic violence support world is talking about transformative justice and accountability and how punitive nature of just incarceration doesn't help anyone. It doesn't help people wanna take accountability because at our core, we don't want to be rejected or seen as monsters. So if we change the way about, how we talk about harm and accountability. And allow people to be tender and actually want to repair relationships and not be seen as a monster rejected. Just have some of that tenderness, where again, where would the world be? This was such a great conversation. I. So much fun I did too. when I'm around Nicki. So where can people keep up with you and your work and connect? But that connects back to systems, like the toxic stuff, right? Like we have the kind of penal, retribution, punitive system we have, and you trace that back to our. The dominant religion being rooted in one of retribution and punishment that isn't restorative, even though, again, I'm an atheist, but I understand that the Bible at its core has a message of restoration and so it's like, but where? Where are the people who hold power choosing to. Put their stake in the ground and to yeah, build a, build a system off of. And so that tells you a lot right there. Okay, so where can people find me? I'm on Instagram most, like mostly at broadening the narrative, so that was my podcast before broadening the narrative. And I do have a website, Nicki pappas.com, and people can subscribe to my website and get fun emails from me. I think they're fun. And then I have a Substack, which is called Coming Alive, where I write about pursuing all that makes us come alive per that Howard Thurman quote that I shared the beginning of the call. So yeah. Yay. I will be sure to link all of those places in the show notes and all of the books that we talked about as well, as well as all of Nicki's books and where to get them, which by the way can also get them. Liberation is lit.com. So yes. Thank you for being a part of the podcast, and thank you listeners. If you have any stories you wanna share, wanna suggest any topics or just wanna connect, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok at Liberation is Lit, or you can visit our website, liberation is lit.com. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving your review. And remember, your voice matters and together through the lens of stories, we're gonna make a difference in the world until.