Human Memory Carried in the Land and Water (with Shobha Rao)

In this episode, we interview Shobha Rao, author of 'Girls Burn Brighter' and 'Indian Country.' Rao shares her journey to becoming a writer, beginning with her migration from India to the U.S. as a child. We cover the themes in her books, particularly focusing on disenfranchised populations and the impact of colonialism. Rao also discusses the importance of cultivating kindness, the inspiration behind her writing, and her literary influences. 

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome

00:50 Shobha Rao's Journey to Becoming a Writer

03:49 Exploring Themes in 'Indian Country'

06:36 Shobha Rao's Literary Focus and Inspirations

09:14 The Impact of Colonialism and Empire

12:07 Grounding Practices and the Power of Poetry

15:16 Current Reads and Literary Influences

19:02 Advice for Making a Positive Impact

23:03 Closing Remarks and Where to Find Shobha Rao

Shobha’s Books

Indian Country

An Unrestored Woman

Girls Burn Brighter

Books Mentioned in Episode

2666 by Roberto Bolaño

Demon Copperhead by Barbara Kingslover

David Copperfield by Charles Dickens

Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain

Adventures of Tom Sawyer by Mark Twain 

James by Percival Everett

Where to Find Shobha

ShobhaRao.com

Thank you for being part of the Liberation is Lit podcast! If you have stories to share, want to suggest topics, or just want to connect, find us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @liberationislit or visit our website at liberationislit.com. If you enjoyed the episode, please consider leaving a review! Remember, your voice matters, and together, through the lens of stories, we're making a difference in the world.

Transcript

0:08

Hey y'all. Welcome to the Liberation is Lit podcast, where the power of storytelling is the force of social change. I'm your host, Tayler Simon, and in this podcast we believe in the profound impact of stories and we got so distracted at beginning just in the conversation, but I'm so excited to be here with Shobha Rao, the author of Girls Burn Brighter, as well as Indian Country. So I'm excited to keep talking about all things, books and storytelling and the things we just noticed as writers. So, Shobha can Hi Tayler. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. Can you kick off the conversation by telling us a little bit about yourself as a writer and author? Sure. So I like to joke that I became a writer on the airplane over from India to the United States. I was seven years old. And, you know, it's, it's half. There's a half truth to it, right? Because when I got arrived in the United States, I didn't know any English, almost no English, maybe like a handful of words. And so what happened is because I could no longer engage in conversation with people, and I couldn't really respond in ways I wanted to. What happened is I turned inward and all the other senses came alive in a way. Like, and, and so I began to see more and smell more. And of course that was also virtue of being, being in a new country right? In a new environment. And so, and, and that's when I think my storytelling capacities began, right? Because when you can't share moments or your day, it's you know, your day with your teacher, what's going on. What happens is the narrative turns inward and you start telling yourself those stories. And I truly became the, the belief that's when I probably became a writer, although I didn't start writing till I was in my, like, late, later twenties, mid to late twenties. And, you know, all through the years, and certainly in my years of living in rural Indiana, I read quite a bit all the time, and they were probably my closest friends. I didn't have many friends, so books became my companions. And I think when I got to my mid twenties, I thought, well, maybe I can add to that companionship, you know, maybe I can in some way contribute to it and give back to it. And so that's when I put pen to paper. And began to write. And then once I did that, in all my naivete, it took me from that point about 15 years to publish anything, not a book, anything like a, a small piece in a literary journal. And, it, it, you know, it's, it's a craft and it took me all those years to learn the craft and I'm so much, stronger and as a person and, and also braver as a writer, because of all those years. So that is my journey to becoming a writer. I love that and I kind of feel parallels just learning, writing, and finally feeling brave enough to publish something is the best feeling and that catharsis of, okay, you feel all of this inside and now. After, learning the tools and the craft, how can you translate all of these feelings inside something external? I see a lot of just deep reflection in your books in general, but especially in your newest book, Indian Country. And we were just talking about how one line or one part of the book in particular just made me think about how we don't treat anything sacred here in America, and that is kind of one of the underlying themes in the book. So can you tell us about the book Indian Country and was the inspiration behind you writing it Uh huh. readers will get from the story? Well, so on its surface, it's, it's, a young couple who moves from India to Montana. They were sort of forced into an arranged marriage that neither of them really wanted. And so, and once they arrived, they're embroiled in this sort of, you know, a crime that happens, on the main character. The husband Sagar during his watch at work. So it's a migration story. It's a love story. It's a murder mystery. It's all sort of, you know, in there, but at a deeper level and, and almost a more important level it's about human memory and memory that is carried in the land and in waters. And I know that sounds strange but I do, I hope to get to, you know, how I came to that later in our conversation, but certainly what I want the reader to take away is this understanding that, you know, though on the surface we might seem different and even if we're continents apart, there are histories and traumas that connect us as human beings. And I wanna reach, that the reader and say, look, let's look at those deeper histories and those deeper ways in which we're connected rather than being saying, oh, well that Indian person is from India and I'm Native American, and there's no, no, there are deep rivulets and rivers of connection, and I want the reader to come away with that. And the way you connected all of these different stories and timelines and cultures and the vignettes that are part of the larger novel is just was really amazing to me to feel that connection across, even that connection to what you were referring to, that human memory carried in land and water, but diasporically and ravaged by colonialism and Right. And so I really felt those themes. And so it seems like a a, pattern within the books you write, but Mm-hmm. of your favorite topics to explore within your writing? I, well, I would say, certainly disenfranchised populations, and, more, even more specifically, I would say, the lives of women and children within those populations. So, my first book, which is a, a collection of short stories called an Unrestored Woman. This is just as an example, looked at the lives of women and children during the practition of Indian Pakistan, which was in 1947. So it in that conflict which resulted from, you know, the British Empire leaving. The Indians subcontinent and just like basically plopping down a line and saying, here's your border. Goodbye. You know, in the ensuing conflict, you know, over a million people died, 12 to 20 million, were forced to migrate. And in fact, it was a, it's the largest human, migration in, in history, in all of history. So, and it was forced. Right. By empire, by the pursuit of Empire. And then once that empire no longer became lucrative, the the empire left, right and left. Incredible distress and displacement and conflict. And so the short story collection really examined, you know, the lives of mostly poor suffering, disenfranchised women who are, who are, you know, sort of, you know, in these situations because of these global forces that they have no control over, which is so many of our lives, right? And so that, and, and with girls burned brighter, it was like the, this world of human trafficking that these poor girls are forced into and they have no, I, you know, they do it to survive. And yet it's, you know, obviously incredibly, incredibly, traumatic and violent. And then, Indian country. Again, it's manifest destiny and what it did to the native populations in our country and, and, colonialism and what it did to the populations in India and the world over, quite honestly. And, so that truly is, I think my, what I'm sort of obsessed with in, in not just. You know, historically, but how these things, how these forces and traumas play out in our current lives and to think that they don't is incredibly, it's not seeing the, the entire human person, right? It's saying, oh, well look, it's colonialism, is is, is done for the most part. And, and oh look, the, you know, native populations are settled and no, it plays out and it continues to play out in our lives. And, that is what I'm sort of, you know, very focused on examining in my work. I was just thinking the, yesterday actually at, the South Carolina State Department of Education, school board meeting, and, they were talking about this new program that's gonna like, talk about South Carolina's huge role in the Revolutionary War. And I, it all of a sudden it just clicked for me that america was a colonialist project and we glorify like our independence from that colonialist Mm-hmm. Yet we can't see how devastating our American colonialist projects have ruined different places in the world and how they deserve to be colonized. But we didn't, and Oh my God, yes. wow. I dunno why I've never, never clicked and it was just because the propaganda is so strong and Yes. embedded in our American history and And. was just Yeah, that's mind blowing. Right? And it's the compartmentalization that, you know, is in so many ways the project of Empire, right? Like, oh, they deserved it, but we don't, like, we, there's, you know, that again, like that white nationalist, like superior race thing, right? Like, oh, well no, we, we are smarter and better and thereby worthy of self-determination, whereas they, over there being people of color and maybe not, as you know, wealthy, they are, they should not have determination over their governance and their lives, and that compartmentalization is such a dangerous. Way to live because you're right, we've become steeped in these, self, you know, defined rules and "truths" that are deeply disconnected from our own, state sponsored violence and our own choices as a nation. And then something else we were talking about before recording was, being confronted with some of the more unsavory parts of history and, trying to reconcile with that on a personal level, but also as a country and so this could be really hard work and definitely extracting a lot of those feelings for the characters in your book when they are, they're not perfect. They are products of the society like you said, chasing empire has affected them, and so I know that can be emotionally taxing to harness those feelings for those characters, but you're channeling it as a writer. So what keeps you grounded in this work as an author? What, we touched on this before we started recording, but certainly like, and I, I know you do a lot of walking. I do a lot of walking and you know, I know, you know, obviously. The preferred, modality is to go into like a forest or buy a river or, you know, even a little stream. But we don't have, we don't all have access to that, right? And so I just walk in San Francisco and, and, and try to like see how the sun is glinting off the leaves or, or even the cuteness of the little dog that's walking toward me. You know, we can, I try to connect with whatever is. You know, on my walk. And, and that's a way of literally grounding, right? And, and also just being present and aware, to things that are beautiful and maybe not so beautiful but they have a, and I'm gonna say this again. They have a sacredness that I think is, is universal in, in our lived experience, in our lived environments. And the other thing, Tayler, is, poetry. I read a lot of poetry, so I'm a, I'm a prose writer. I, I don't, I'm, I'm a horrific, horrible poet. But, I, I read poetry. I'm, I use it, to center me. And to remind me how powerful one single image can be or even one single word and how it can travel through our bodies and into our writing. And so yeah, I do use poetry as well, and especially when I'm writing, it's a practice of mind to start the day with poetry and even end it. With a poem, and I just, I picked them randomly. Like, I don't even have a favorite poem or a favorite poet. I just picked them randomly. And that it's been a incredible, like place of solace and meaning and grounding in my writing life and also in my, in my, you know, daily life. I am the opposite. I am a poet. Oh, write poetry because I need a short little container to if it's too big, then I'm getting lost in it. So I'm like, I don't know where to go next. So when I write, I mostly write poetry 'cause it keeps me like in a snuck little blanket. you know what? I so admire poets and I'm so in awe of them because you have to say something. So precisely. I mean, with such precision and such like profound awareness of wording and flow and spacing, and it's, to me, that's overwhelming. You know? I'm like, why can't I just put that in a chapter that's like 20 pages long? No, you have to do it in a few lines, a handful of lines a lot of times. So yeah, I am, I'm absolutely in awe. Yes, and when I read your books, I feel poetry, so that's what matters. Oh, what a compliment. Thank you. The highest compliment. I so appreciate that. Yes. So in addition to poetry, has there been anything that you've been reading lately that's you've really connected with? Okay, so I do well in, I'll answer the second part first. I do love Roberto Bologna's work, namely 26 66, which has like, sort of changed my writing life because it was so conversational, but yet, and yet dealing with such incredibly difficult topics. And I thought, oh, you can do that like you can, you can make it. You know, such a pleasurable kind of, you know, I'm talking to a friend, kind of read, and yet, you know, really confront horrific truths, and events. And, but what I've been, what I just did was, well, so I had demon copperhead by Barbara Kingsolver just sitting there, and I hadn't gotten to it. But then the other day on a walk, I looked into a library book box and there was David Copperfield, which Demon Copperhead is, you know, sort of, paired with, or, you know, she, she used it, in some way that I don't know yet, because what I decided to do is read them together at the same time, so we have them in tandem. So I'm, I'm, or not in tandem, but at the same time. So I'll read one chapter in Demon Copperhead and one one in David Copperfield. So I'm super excited about doing that. I've, I'm usually a one book at a time person, so this is a bit of a departure for me, but I'm excited to do it. And I'm so enamored now with, with that, you know, being influenced by work.'cause I read James. Enjoyed so much and so powerful and amazing. So I now wanna, revisit, that kind of writing. So I'm excited. I'm excited. I just started doing it, so I'll have to report back. Yes, definitely because I, there's books that I want to read like that. I read multiple books at a time all the Uhhuh, let's see. I never thought about the book that influenced a like more contemporary book. Oh, now, now I've gotta try. So if I could, if I do read James again, I'll do it with Huckleberry Finn. Right? So, so that then you have that resonance because you know, I mean obviously the author was obviously deeply influenced and was moved and we, you know, I don't remember, I remember reading Huckleberry Finn in high school, but I don't think I ever read David Copperfield. So this will be a whole new you know, entran an entrance encounter for me. Yeah, 'cause I definitely remember reading Huck Finn in high school, but I don't think I read David Copperfield and I remember just being bored with Huck Finn and Mark Twain in general. My grandma loved Huckleberry Finn Uhhuh. She used to love, love them, and I'm just like. I just don't really vibe with little white boys having little white boy adventures. But, But there is Jim. Don't forget, Jim. yes, yes. And, and No, you know, you're right. I mean, I do. I, it's Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn have become such a part of the, such a part of our cultural zeitgeist. You know, every time I'm doing something that I'm like, oh, this is such a drag, I'm like, I think of the picket fence, you know, that Tom is painting and he talks somebody else into, you know, I, I think about those things and then Becky and Tom, you know, anyway, but, but you're right. It would be such an interesting thing to read them as adults now. See the ways in which they maybe had, you know, were there was commentary, like social commentary that we didn't pick up at, pick up on as, as you know, adolescence. So you're kind of talking me into reading the Adventures of a Huckleberry Finn now. I mean, it's with a reread of James. exactly, exactly. And so my last question for you today is what advice would you offer listeners who wanna make a positive impact in their community? So here's, you know, I know this, is gonna sound a little like. Pollyanna, and maybe I don't, I think we need to be kind to one another. And here's the thing, everybody I know is like, oh, I'm kind, I'm a kind person. I try to be, I'm like, no, no, no. That's not the kindness I'm talking about. I'm talking about kindness that you cultivate, like you work on it. Like it's a, it's an act of love. It's an act. It's a act of, it's a laborious act. And I think in the society we're living in. I'm like, we need to revolutionize it, our acts of kindness and rethink them and deepen them and practice them in a, in a way that's not like passive, like, oh, I'm a kind person. Like, no, no, no. Make it a verb. I get an active verb and turn every interaction, on its head and topple it with kindness, you know? And I, and I. It, it seems like a small thing, but I've since, and I'm not saying I'm good at it or even, you know, perfect certainly not perfect at it, but I see how it can just, every interaction, whether it's a cashier, at Trader Joe's, or whether it's, you know, a person that I'm just walking past on the street, if the moment arises to practice kindness, I'm like, double it. Triple it. Like deepen it. Broaden it, like, you know, dive into it and, and you know, instead of just being like, I'm good, I'm kind. It's like, no, like go, go in. Just go all in. So that's what I would say. And I think that is what people confuse is that they are nice versus kind. Hmm. And from listening to how you were talking about kindness, feels like that kindness is connected to a sense of humanity. Seeing Mm-hmm. someone else versus when you're nice, you don't necessarily have to connect to that humanity piece. Oh, absolutely. Because you have that built-in excuse of like, oh, I'm a nice person, you know, and I'm like, no, I mean, you're not punching a little kitten in the, in the head, but that's not, you know, we, there's, there's levels to every, emotion into every act and to everything we put into the world, and I think this kindness. I feel like it's changed the texture, texture of my life to just really, almost embarrassingly kind. You know? Just, I'm like, go in, get in there. What is there, what are you gonna lose? Like, somebody who's like, oh, doesn't smile back. I mean, or, you know, and that's the least of it, right? That's the least of it. I'm like, who cares? It's, it's, it's an, it's a worthy act. It's how we recognize each other. And meet each other in a place of common, as you say, humanity and empathy and understanding and just generosity 'cause I don't know what you've been through. You don't know what I've been through. So let's just arrive and be kind and start there. Yeah. yes, yes. Be kind, Yes. not just nice Exactly. There's the dis and maybe sit with that distinction, like sit with it and think about it, you know, and see how it, how it, it resonates in, in your own body. Nice versus kindness, like true revolutionary kindness. Mm-hmm. And being kind to ourselves as well. Oh, amen. Absolutely. That's where it starts. Well, yes, and I so love this conversation. I did too. Thank you. Shobha, for being on the podcast. Where can people find you and keep up with your work? So I have no social media. I'm one of those just opted out. But, but I've in, local libraries, I'm in local, independent booksellers anywhere you couldn't buy a book, borrow a book, um, know, steal a book anywhere. Yes. Do you have, a website where people can find your Yes, Shoba rao.com. S-H-O-B-H-A-R-A o.com. And that is, you know, it's kinda a static website, but you can see like you can go there to buy from bookshop.org and other, good places. Yes, yes, and I will include all of those links, including the link to all of the books and the website on, the show notes for this episode. you again, Shoba, for being on the podcast. And thank you listeners. If you have stories that you wanna share, wanna suggest any topics or just wanna connect, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok at liberationist Lit, or visit our website@liberationistlit.com. If you enjoyed the episode, please consider leaving a review. And remember, your voice matters and together through the lens of stories, we're gonna make a difference in the world. Until next time. Yay. Thank you. It's been an honor.