Stories as Fuel for Curiosity (with Johnisha Matthews Levi)

In this episode, we interview Johnisha Matthews Levi about her powerful memoir 'Number's Up' and her journey as an author. Johnisha shares her personal story, discussing her parents' diverse backgrounds, her shy nature, and her path from law to environmental justice work. They delve into the importance of storytelling for social impact, how narratives can shape culture, and the ways individuals can make a positive contribution to their communities. Johnisha also offers insights on her process of using personal family experiences to highlight larger social issues. Additionally, they discuss the significance of local activism, philanthropy, and the role of nonfiction in storytelling. Join us for an inspiring conversation filled with rich insights and actionable advice.

00:00 Welcome to the Liberation is Lit Podcast

00:34 Introducing Johnisha Matthews Levi

01:47 Johnisha's Background and Journey as an Author

03:58 The Discovery that Sparked the Memoir

07:32 Exploring Family Stories and Sociological Connections

12:33 The Role of Storytelling in Social Impact Work

15:58 Staying Grounded and Inspired in Storytelling

17:53 What Johnisha is Reading Lately

21:13 Advice for Making a Positive Impact

24:39 Where to Find Johnisha and Closing Remarks

Johnisha’s Book

Numbers Up: Cracking the Code of an American Family

Books Mentioned in This Episode

Daddy Was a Numbers Runner by Louise Meriwether

The World According to Fannie Davis: My Mother's Life in the Detroit Numbers by Bridgett M Davis

His Truth Is Marching On: John Lewis and the Power of Hope by Jon Meacham

Fear and Fury: The Reagan Eighties, the Bernie Goetz Shootings, and the Rebirth of White Rage by Heather Ann Thompson

The Wilderness by Angela Flournoy

Bad Company: Private Equity and the Death of the American Dream by Megan Greenwell

Where to Find Johnisha

Instagram

Website

Thank you for being part of the Liberation is Lit podcast! If you have stories to share, want to suggest topics, or just want to connect, find us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @liberationislit or visit our website at liberationislit.com. If you enjoyed the episode, please consider leaving a review! Remember, your voice matters, and together, through the lens of stories, we're making a difference in the world.

Transcript

0:08

Hey y'all. Welcome to the Liberation is Lit Podcast where the power of storytelling meets the force of social change. I'm your host, Tayler Simon, and in this podcast we believe in the profound impact of stories, and I am super excited to be with johnisha Matthews Levi to talk about her memoir and just her journey as an author and her story that she tells in her memoir. Numbers up. So, hi Johnisha, how are you doing today? Hi, Tayler. It's so nice to be here with you. Thank you for having me. I'm, I'm doing well. I'm doing well, you know, getting over the, the winter storm and hit hard in Nashville. But, yeah, back on my feet. So here I am. Yay. so glad.'Cause you know, down here in the south, we do not have the infrastructure for snow no. Yes, I have some friends in New England and they just kinda shake their heads, but I'm like, you don't understand that. They just are not equipped to deal with it down here. Exactly. Even though although here in Columbia everything was closed and people were freaking out. It was just cold outside. We didn't get a lot of ice, but I'm just grateful that we are taking precautions not forcing people in unsafe conditions. Yes. Yes, for no reason than people to go out in the world where we're not prepared to take care of people. very true. Very true. Yes. So to start off our conversation today, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey as an author and what led you to tell your story through your memoir? Numbers up. Yeah. So, I grew up in Washington, dc I'm one of those, true natives. They, they are rare, but they do exist. And actually. I guess my mother was born in DC so I'm like a second generation. My dad is from southern Maryland, but he came to DC as a, as a young man, after he had, served in World War ii. And so I grew up in kinda a. Non-traditional household. My parents were different religions, different races. We had a, a large blended family. My, my oldest sister is in her seventies. I'm in my forties, so there's quite a span there. And so, yeah, I always kinda, grew up being like very interested in writing, but not really thinking of being an author. I just knew, I liked to write, I was very shy. I had a lot of social anxiety and I felt like writing was just kind of there as like my. Way of, you know, bringing out my voice when I wasn't really comfortable, like, you know, saying things to people. And it's been central to different careers that I've had. I, you know, I practice law for a little while. Of course, writing is very important there. I meant. I work as a development manager, at a small environmental justice nonprofit. So I do a lot of proposals with a lot of like communications work. But so I didn't necessarily think I was going to be a writer until it was sort of this like perfect storm of things that happened and I found. You know, my parents had passed away. My mother was like very, she collected everything, kept everything, and it took me some years, but I was going through her files, I'll go to files because it was a lot of disorder. But I found my dad's parole paper and I knew he had been, incarcerated, but nobody ever really talked to me about like the circumstances or the timing. And the thing that surprised me was. He was incarcerated at the time I was born. So, you know, you can imagine you're living your life 40 years thinking you know the story and you realize you don't. So I, I had already started doing some writing about my parents because I was just trying to like preserve memories that I had. And, but it sort of, upon finding that, I just really felt like called to get into the deeper story, to learn the truth for myself. And I also thought it was something that would resonate with people because that it, you know, my, my dad worked for many years, many decades as a numbers runner and it has not, it is a very under-explored but very common thing in black and brown communities. And like everybody knows people who play the numbers, who ran the numbers. It's in, you know, all kinds of movies, like minor characters and stuff, you know, or some of the like Colson Whitehead and his novels, but they're never really like the subjects. The only books that I knew of that were, they were like the subjects was this excellent novel that was written about 55 years ago. And I didn't read until I was an adult. Daddy was a number runner. And, Bridgette Davis, who has become a friend of mine, that was the first time, that was the first book I really read about the numbers. You know, the world according to Fannie Davis, which was about her mother running numbers in Detroit. I just felt compelled. I was like, this is a story that needs to be told. And I think it's reflective of a lot of people's experiences and, you know, I committed to it sometimes I'm a dabbler, like I'll start projects and I'll just kind of like fall off. But with this, I felt like really strongly committed to it and I felt like I was also doing it for my family, for my parents. Ooh. I love that so much because I'm more and more interested in genealogical research and like telling the story of my own family. Family. If you're listening to this, that doesn't mean I'm gonna air out all the dirty laundry publicly, like many of you all think, No Nova Bourdalone right. Yes. And that's the example my mom uses every time at the family dinner table. I'm just like, Ooh, this will be a great story write down. And then they clam up and be like, oh, is this gonna be, and I'm like, I would never publish anything without permission or anything like that. I'm not Nola. I, I'm wondering more about your process of examining your, your family story through kind of a sociological lens, even though your background is in law and development and communications. How did you work to make connections to something so, or universal connections to something so personal? Well, I, I'll first I'll just say I'm like really drawn in my reading to stories that are kind of keyhole stories. For those who aren't familiar with that concept, it's kind of like using the story of an individual or a family to look into like a larger social issue or like conditions, systemic failures. And so, I don't know. I think through my reading, I kind of just, you know, throughout my life that was kinda like the lens that I felt naturally that I was gonna go toward, because I also felt like I wanted people. I was really. It was really important for me for people to get like a three dimensional picture. And especially there are some tough things in the book, and so I didn't want it to be like, oh, this is the story of a villain. You know, my father's very central to the story. There was violence in my home, but I also wanted to, people to understand. Him as a person, like the social factors that shaped him. I also wanted them to understand the same thing about my mom. Some of the history of DC that I felt was like, particularly relevant, you know, talking about, this sort of sustained black world in DC like U Street in that neighborhood is kind of like a minor character in the book. And it's very different now, with gentrification in the city. So I also wanted to, you know, paint some of that picture and not just tell, you know, the story without the context. And I think by doing that kind of thing. So I, I almost feel like when I was telling the story, I was like one of those little birds who's kinda gathering like little branches or like pieces of cloth or whatever. And even as I was, you know, working on it, sometimes I would, yes, there were books that I sought out as research, but there were also things that I was just reading for pleasure I would just find like a little vignette or something like that. Like I think there's a, there's a story in there that I tell about Colin Powell and like how his grandparents one, like they played the numbers and they used that to buy their house in Queens. And like that wasn't something I was looking for. I was just reading like this book by John Meacham and it kind of jumped out. Or there was a story about, you know, the, John Lewis trying to get money together to continue the Freedom Rides. And they, like the only people who had cash on them were numbers runners so they went to them like at that like, you know, at night and were able to like fund and continue their journey. So little things like that. And I think, you know, even readers who have come up to me at events and like, they can't relate to. You know, some of the central experiences when it comes to race, they may relate to something, they may relate to the family secret aspect and, you know, having a challenging or difficult relationship with a parent. So I think, you know, I tried to make it a very sort of accessible voice too when I was writing, and that also makes it like easier for people to connect to the story. Yes, and agree, and even just highlighting a lot of the issues that you just talked about through your personal story makes it more accessible for people than reading jargon filled research studies or studies put out by different political committees and things like that. It's, it's, a real experience where people can touch and smell and taste and see through the eyes of. The real people's experiences. So I love how you did that and so you talked about, working in development for a social impact nonprofit and, as somebody with a background in that and who kind of a. impact, nonprofit business, hybrid thing going on with liberation is lit. How do you believe that's, do you believe storytelling is important in this work as well? It's real, it's really essential. I, you know, I feel like at our organization right now, because we are doing environmental justice work and we're up against this polluter agenda. It's really important for us to find a way to counter that narrative. And I think what. I have noticed is that the right is very good at this kind of work. They invest in the long-term culture change, like telling the story that you know, then changes, conditions and laws. And I think sometimes a lot of us who are doing like a lot of progressive work. Sometimes we like focus on, you know, direct services helping people, and that's all very important but we also have to like invest in that longer term strategy of like changing the culture and changing the narrative because that. Is going to carry us forward beyond like individual victory. So I think like a really good example of that is just, you know, leading up to the legalization of gay marriage. You know, I think there was a very, sophisticated effort to kind of you know, lead the culture in a direction where that was going to happen. And if that was, that work wasn't done, by advocacy organizations, then, you know, the law isn't going to follow. So, yeah, and I just think also just for my day-to-day work and grant writing, my proposal writing, I think a lot about. I think a lot about like how our constituencies are portrayed and depicted, and just trying to ensure that we are seeing them as subjects and not objects and we're not here doing for them. We are working with them. So that's, that's another thing that, you know, I think is really central and like communicating that to like all of our partners or stakeholders, whether they be funders, whether they be other community based organizations. And As somebody who used to be in this work and continues this work in another iteration, it can be exhausting sometimes to feel like you're always trying to people of other people's humanity. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. know, how do you keep yourself grounded in this work as a storyteller? Yeah, I, well, first of all, I just always am like, I'm such a curious person and stories are kind of like my fuel. And I don't know, I feel like I grew up as this, like outsider aliens, like even in my family too, I'm a little bit of an anomaly. And so it's kind of like the way that I connect to people. And it was the way that I connected to my dad. Like, even though he was this like very complicated person to have a relationship with, he was an amazing storyteller. And so when we would have those moments like that is, that's what I really loved about him and, and kind of wanted to communicate. In the book as well. But, yeah, I mean, it, it is, it can be really disheartening and especially with like events going on. My organization is located in Minneapolis and, you know, many of my colleagues are very directly affected. And I, it's, it's hard to, you know, kind of like support efforts when you're not on the ground. But I also know that we all have, you know, different skills that we can contribute and by doing my work, it helps them do their work. But, so yeah, that's, I don't know if that's the, Oh no, that's perfect because it's, the yeah. Our movements needs to be sustained, just like we as individuals need to be sustained. Yes, yes. so I wanna ask you a fun question now. What have you been reading lately? Oh yeah. I love this question. I, so actually somebody in my neighborhood, it put it in one of the free little libraries because it's not really, it wasn't released yet, but I found it in December. And I read, Heather Ann Thompson's new book, fear and Fury, which is about the Bernard Goetz, subway shooting. And it's really a compelling examination of, like, I, I have memories of that as a kid. Like, even though I didn't grow up in New York, it was just such a, like, big story at the time. And I think she, you know, skillfully kind of drew the connections between, white rage and vi vigilantism and, you know, you can see a lot of. That precursor of what's happening right now, unfortunately. So that was really good. I read the Wilderness, which was, really poignant look at, friendship between black women, and kind of reminded me of my, my friend group from high school. And then I, another book I read recently is called Bad Company, which is a. Was, examination of like how private equity is affecting workers in different sectors. I really liked the way that she, was able to kind of use like five different people and look at like how private equity kind of wreck their companies, the companies that they worked for and then also, you know, kind of, you know. Put their livelihoods in danger. So yeah, I kind of lean more toward nonfiction. Lately I used to be like very heavily fiction because I was an English major, but as I get older I'm like, oh, I really wanna understand the world around us.'cause it is really messed up. And people sleep on nonfiction. It's there's really good compelling storytelling, whether it's some, a book like Numbers Up where it's somebody, the author's personal story and account or like bad company that you talked about where it's an author telling the stories of other people who have been affected by an issue. So don't sleep on nonfiction, Yes, yes. I love it. I am, trying to get Angela Flo Oh wow. podcast, That would be amazing. in the universe. I reached out, having heard back. Maybe if I say I gave a shout out. But that book was so good too, so I, I agree. I think my favorite section of that book was the, the, the 14 hours in Chicago, because that like really reminded me of my friends. And the dialogue was just popping. It was yes. trips. So my last question for you is, what advice would you offer listeners who wanna make a positive impact in their communities? Oh yeah, this is a great question. You know, it can be really overwhelming because I feel like so much is wrong in the world, but. You know, even just starting small, starting locally, starting, you know, doing statewide work, I, I feel like nothing is gonna really change on that national, federal level and. The, the next few years. But I think there's a lot of positive change, that can come when, you know, when people come together in their communities. I mean, Minneapolis is showing that now, and that's not just like the demonstrations, but there's a lot of concerted behind the scenes efforts by organizers and like we should all sort of fo follow their lead. I think. And the other thing to remember is that there are different ways to contribute. So people have different skills, talents, maybe you're a really good storyteller, so you wanna help with comms work. Or, you know, maybe you're a great organizer or you know, maybe you're a relationship, a connector. There are a lot of people in communities who are good connectors. And I think another piece of advice would just be like it. You can find. So many avenues for, creating change. I think, you know, some people are drawn to work with like their church communities or religious communities, like there might be nonprofits, but just kind of pick that like one issue I think that is like close to your heart and just really learn about what's going on in your community and like how you can get involved. Yeah, I, the, the other thing I tell people too is there is this idea, since I work in philanthropy, that philanthropists are only rich people who write big checks. But that is not true. We are all philanthropists. We can all be givers. You know, we can be givers of our time. We can help people through like mutual aid or giving circles, and honestly, people in black and brown communities by like proportion of their income, we are like the biggest givers, the most generous. So I think that's also really important for people to know. Just kind of like disabusing them of that notion of what a, you know, what a philanthropist is. Because when we work together through our small actions, it can be impact and, just a shout out for the work you do and just Thank you. how grants are super important for nonprofits. But the thing that really sustains the work for a lot of nonprofits is those individual givers who give like as little as $5 a Yes. Mm-hmm. organizations. So that is super important. So sacrifice coffee once a Yes. Yes. nonprofit. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. So thank you so much again, Johnisha for this amazing conversation. Where can people find you and keep up with your work? Yeah, so, you can either follow me on Instagram at Johnisha Matthews Levy. You can also find more of my writing on my website also Johnisha Matthews Levy, as well as like some of my, upcoming events. And, you know, if you wanna support and pick the book up, I encourage you to, do so at your independent book, your favorite independent bookstore or bookshop.org. Yes, and I will be linking Jana's book in the show notes as well as the other books that we talked about so you can get some of more of those juicy nonfiction storytelling bits. Oh, awesome. thank you again. I'm so excited to read the book and get into it. And you Tayler so much. Yeah, This was a lot of fun. Yes, you listeners for being a part of the Liberation is Lit Podcast. If you have stories to share or wanna suggest any topics or just wanna connect with us, you can find us on Instagram. Facebook and TikTok at Liberation is Lit or visit our website at liberationistlit.com. If you enjoyed the episode, please consider leaving your review. And remember, your voice matters and together through the lens of stories, we're gonna make a difference in the world. Until next time.