Abortion Stories are Expansive (with Renee Bracey Sherman)

In this episode, we converse with Renee Bracey Sherman, co-author of the book 'Liberating Abortion.' We dive deep into how Renee and her co-author, Regina, wrote their impactful book, and explore the complexities and joys of their partnership. We talk about the importance of abortion rights, comprehensive activism, and the broader implications for social justice. Don't miss this compelling dialogue packed with insightful anecdotes, actionable advice, and inspiring reflections on creating a liberated future.

00:00 Introduction to the Liberation is Lit Podcast

00:36 Meet Renee Bracy Sherman

01:10 Journey to Becoming a Writer and Scholar

03:18 The Birth of a Book Collaboration

07:31 Challenges and Triumphs of Co-Writing

18:35 The Comprehensive Nature of 'Liberating Abortion'

27:32 The Importance of Addressing Abortion Myths

28:53 Surveillance and Criminalization in Abortion Debates

31:15 The Evolution of the Book 'Liberating Abortion'

32:20 Staying Grounded and Joyful in Activism

36:57 The Power of Community and Shared Values

43:33 Advice for Making a Positive Impact

46:29 Recommended Reads and Final Thoughts

Renee and Regina’s Book

Liberating Abortion

Other Books Mentioned

Rooted: The American Legacy of Land Theft and the Modern Movement for Black Land Ownership by Brea Baker

Becoming Abolitionists: Police, Protests, and the Pursuit of Freedom by Derecka Purnell

Relinquished: The Politics of Adoption and the Privilege of American Motherhood by Gretchen Sisson

These Heathens by Mia McKenzie

The Girls Who Grew Big by Leila Mottley

South Carolina’s Abortion Fund

Palmetto State Abortion Fund

Where to find Renee (and Regina!)

Liberatingabortion.org

reneebraceysherman.com

Renee’s Instagram

Renee’s TikTok

byreginamahone.com

Regina’s Instagram

Thank you for being part of the Liberation is Lit podcast! If you have stories to share, want to suggest topics, or just want to connect, find us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @liberationislit or visit our website at liberationislit.com. If you enjoyed the episode, please consider leaving a review! Remember, your voice matters, and together, through the lens of stories, we're making a difference in the world.

Transcript

0:05

Hey y'all. Welcome to the Liberation is Lit Podcast, where the power of storytelling meets the force of social change. I'm your host Tayler Simon, and in this podcast we believe in the profound impact of stories and I am just so excited, as you can see by like you'll see by the colors. how I feel, just like so colorful and light. Talking to Renee Bracy Sherman, one of the authors of the book, liberating Abortion. So this is gonna be a fun conversation.

Warning: 0:34

It might be a little unhinged, but it's still gonna be really great. Hey Renee, how are you doing today? Hi. I am as excellent as can be in this like whatever this is of a world, but i'm happy to be here and I'm finding my joy and all that. I love that finding your joy. Can you start us off with talking about, yourself as a writer and a scholar, and what led you to partner with Regina to write the book? Liberating Abortion. Yeah. Oh my gosh. It feels weird to even say that'cause it, it took me a long time to actually identify as a writer. And I'm still awkward with the term author. It feels like a an ill-fitting sweater, like I know I'm supposed to wear it. It, you know, it is mine, it is my sweater and it still like, doesn't quite feel mine. So it's very odd. And also scholar too. Feels so weird. I'm in my second semester of a PhD program and I'm like, oh, I guess I did do a ton of research for this book. It is scholarship and I'm literally in school in the academy. And yet that doesn't quite feel it. And part of it I think is because we're socialized to believe what a writer or a scholar or an author looks like, and not just like physical looks like, but like that it means that it's something that you do every single day or that that's your, your sole job. But I'm a very much a hyphenate. I do a lot of different things, so I'm still getting used to it. I think. I mean, I've been writing for almost 15 years and it took me 10 to even identify as a writer. Even after I had published so many articles and I think it's, it's really a complicated feeling because I don't know, you feel like you have to, I don't know. I, I felt like I had to publish in certain places or publish super often because I'm not a writer in the way that some other people who are writers full-time. But all that to say that I am a writer and so if you're listening, you too are a writer and that it's normal. If that feels awkward. But what I, I think is important is that other people see you as a writer and therefore you can be that. That also brings me to how I met Regina and our journey in writing this book. We met, she was my editor. We wrote together at this outlet that she was working at Rewire News Group. They focus on news related to the reproductive health rights and justice field an issue. And she had been editing me a few times and I was writing about my abortion experience and at the time she was like going through an abortion and she was kind of fascinated that here I was just openly talking about having an abortion and that was just different. It was something she hadn't experienced before and she felt really confident in being able to talk about her experience, knowing someone else who'd had an abortion, but particular someone else who identified as Black and talked about the complicated feelings and that it, there there are a lot of different feelings and it's okay to have all of those complications and. We worked together for several years and then we were at this adult summer camp thing for like very, it was very millennial coded all that we're sitting in this boat on the lake, just canoeing and asking each other, well, what do you wanna do with the rest of your life? We were both at this turning point of. What exactly were we going to do next with our careers? And we were unsure. And so we were trying to brainstorm based on what the other was doing. Like, well, what are you thinking? What am I thinking? And I said, well, this agent reached out to me and asked if I wanted to write a book if I'd considered that. And I hadn't, again, didn't really consider myself a writer. So I was surprised that someone would even consider or think that I could write a book. And I said, I don't know if the book she's pitching me on is actually the type of book I wanna write. It was something that was more like an anthology and I would be editing it. But I felt like if I was gonna write a book, I wanted to write. I used the term real book, but that's not really like, I didn't mean like, not to be clear, everyone edited volumes are also real books, but I meant that I wanted a book where it was a hundred percent mine and my ideas, and then I wrote down my vision and Regina was like, oh my gosh, I actually want, also wanna write a book and I wanna write a book on Black maternal health. So we started talking about the types of book that we wanted to write and we thought we're sitting in this boat. And I like proposed to her in a way. I said, do you wanna write a book together? She said. Yeah, let's do it. And so we have a photo from that moment of her on the, she's, I took a photo of her, she's looking back in the canoe. And you know, that's when I asked her, and it took us years. I mean, it took us five years to write the book. Five years, multiple moves from houses for both of us. She had two kids. So much happened. We grew as people and it was beautiful that we grew as people and as writers and as scholars together, and that we really got to write the book that we wanted to write and not something else that someone else wanted us to write. I love that so much because, one, it's kind of like. I don't know. It's almost personify what you're writing about, about like partnering and being like a choice to bring a new life into the world. Yeah. And, and that it's a, a, it, it is something that you go into thoughtfully and willingly and that you actually get to make that decision freely. Exactly. And I loved how you documented the proposal. I know right. But how was, how was the process of the book together? I know, it, it, we had a very traumatic experience in grad school writing a paper with four other people and our teacher made us write it all over again. So after that I've been. Wary of doing anything with anybody else.'cause like I said, it was traumatic. But how was that like being in this partnership and co-creating this book together? Yeah, I mean, group projects are always hard. I hated them in grade school because I was like the one that always ended up having to do everything. And part of it is because my type A-ness But, and I, you know, have a, I have some challenges relinquishing control. We're working on that. But it's control over something.'cause I care about it so much. It's not all things.'cause there are other things where I'm like, oh girl, I could not care less. Like, what, what, what do you need me to do? And just move on. But if it's something that it's like, my name is on this, this is what I consider my legacy. So that was difficult in even in like second grade doing my presentation on Harriet Tubman. But I think what it, I mean, it was a really extensive process with ebbs and flows, and we write about some of that in the book itself. We write about the complexities and how things like the lack of social safety nets and supports for families made it difficult for Regina to feel like one, she could do the things that she could contribute, but also, that she felt like I have to do it all. And then, you know, I was trying to take things off of her plate, but then that sometimes made her feel like I was thinking she, that I thought she couldn't do it. And I'm like, no, I'm trying to make this easier for her, or I just wanna get it done. I just, you know, and so without, we needed to be able to talk about that. And in the midst of a pandemic, in the midst of her having kids that was really, really hard. And I think. It was, there was just, it was just a lot. There were moments that it was so beautiful because we would sit together and just vibe off of each other and read, you know, the same books or different books and come away with different things and have so many tidbits. Right. And she has such an incredible understanding of the way Parenthood fits into reproductive justice from her own experience and also her research. And so that really shaped this beautiful aspect of the book even deeper than I could have ever gone as someone who's, I'm not a parent and I have a vision for what I think parenthood should look like in the world, but I am not a parent. And so there are things that she, made me better in thinking, more expansively. And so I could not have done that without her. And there were moments that it was just really fucking hard, like just like dumb things of like, I really like a paragraph, or she really likes a paragraph and like. Babe, one of 'em gotta get cut. Like it's gotta get moved around. That happens when you're working with an editor in general of like, you know, you love a paragraph and something's gotta move and like feelings. So there's stuff like that. But then there's also this pressure that we put on ourselves and the perceived pressure that we put on each other and. While trying to write a book while living life, living through a pandemic, living through fascism, it's really, really difficult. And I, I, what I think was really beautiful that we kept doing was talking to each other, like through it. And there were, like I said, there were days that it was, it was really, really hard. And we'd be frustrated with each other. That's, but that's also like what a deep partnership is that I think the beauty of our relationship is that even when, you know, we might have feelings about whatever dumb thing it was that we could come back to the table, take a deep breath, come back to the table and say, okay, here's what I need. Here's why I'm feeling this way. And sometimes it was just like, actually just like getting lost in translation. I think sometimes people think that because you're a writer, therefore you're always an effective communicator. Not always, like sometimes we just don't have the words. And or we're trying to explain that we wanna do a thing. And we actually can't say it out loud unless it just gets moved. You're just like, I had to just do this. I don't know. Or you can't explain the reasoning. And I think what's so beautiful about our relationship is the level of trust that we have with each other and just being like, okay, girl, I don't know what and why you're doing this, but I trust you and let's just, okay. Let me just, let me just see her patiently and see, see what it is. And then being able to understand each other in that way is, is just, it's incredible, I, I really love how this is just a metaphor for just good partnership, communication, and choice and autonomy. right? It's, I mean, here's the thing I explain. Co-writing a book with someone , again, I am not married. I am not a parent. But what I hear y'all talking about is this. You've agreed to go half on a baby and there are ways that you were raised and want to raise your child. And there are ways that your partner or partners were raised and would like to raise that child. And you have to figure out a, a, a way in the middle. And that child is actively growing and there's an active deadline of that. You gotta get 'em ready for kindergarten. Let's just say our book took five years, so let's say that, right? And there's the you know. You know, pregnancy stage of like, okay, we're shopping our book around, oh, we have an idea and all this, and then it gets the, the book gets bought and then it's time to write, and it's like, oh, now I actually have to raise this thing. And it's looking a little different than what the plan was. There are gonna be days that you are so tired and frustrated and emotional and that you love your partner deeply. And I swear if you sit there and chew with your mouth open one more time. You know what I mean? Like I, you're just gonna lose it. And then also you, you don't even know, but there are things that you do that they're like, if you don't close those cabinets, close the cabinets. And you're like, oh, my bad. I keep for, I didn't even realize I was leaving 'em open. My bad. And so it is very much a relationship and a partnership in that way. And, and that you're contractually obligated to a multinational billion dollar, multi-billion dollar corporation that's holding your marriage together. And it's like, okay. Even if we're frustrated with each other right now we gotta, you know, we have this thing , we, we agreed to do this thing. We agreed to this marriage and, you know, obviously marriage, you can get out of contracts, in theory you can get out of, but , you know, we wanna make it work. And I think that is where that trust and that vision and that, like the moments in which you are just vibing and the creativity is there . And you're just like, oh my God, you wrote this amazing passage, and oh, I wanna build on this and I wanna go. And that is when it just feels so good. But I don't wanna lie and say that there aren't the hard parts. I think there's some stat that most people who've written books with other people don't talk to their co-authors after the book has been published. And I'll say that Regina and I still talk to each other. I actually got a message from her this morning about like, we're still looking at work, write together and things. So you know, she was here at my house a couple weeks ago and it just I feel really fortunate that like, that we each could hold our brilliance and our bullshit for each other. And that is what the beauty of that partnership is. And I think that that's what the beauty of any good friendship, relationship, you know, whatever it is, is that you can hold both for people. I love that so much, and I can see how in a partnership like this when you both have your own stories and such different per perspectives of Regina being a parent, you not, and but also coming together around this same story. It really came through to me in the book because all of these perspectives were given equal dignity and respect and I don't know how many times I've said this, but liberating Abortion was probably the most comprehensive book about any topic that I've ever read, it covers historical perspective, religious perspective, perspectives, a packing list of you'll need potentially if you are going to get an abortion, like words of inspiration from people who have had abortions. So it's just so comprehensive and I want you to talk a little bit about what, you hope readers get from a book like this. Oh, oh, I love talking about this. The book is a little, all over the place, not literally all over, but like, it, it has, as you said, it's expansive, I guess is the nicer word for that. Because abortion is expansive. It's not any one thing. It gets portrayed as this like. Contentious hot button political issue. But it is our history. It is something that we're experiencing in this moment. It is a political issue, it is a value system. It's all of these things and we wanted to put all of that in the book. And it's funny because one of the agents that we met with in the very, very beginning said that this book wouldn't sell. Said that this book, it was too many things. It was too much. This is actually two separate books that the handbook part is separate and the history stuff is, is something different. And I mean, it's, it's kind of not a surprise to me that the agents that didn't get it were all white. And the one that did and that sold it was Black and we just wanted people to like get our, our vision. And there is a lot because we understand that when Black and brown folks are experiencing abortions, we don't experience it in just one way. We experience all of those things and we wanted to include that. The book is also organized in a way in which you can read it all the way through if you want, but Regina in particular is like, I like skipping around in books and I just wanna read like different chapters. And so for that and also so that schools could assign chapters to read with students, each chapter could be read individually and it can be read out of order. What do you need to get out of the book right now? You don't need to read the the ancient methods. We took the tea chapter or the history chapter before the chapter you read on what to expect when you're expecting an abortion. You don't have to have that. And, and I think that is really important to talk about and the structure. I don't think people talk a lot about the structure of, of books. It's just like, oh, you just wrote it. And it's like, no, actually we put some really thought, like big thought and intentionality behind that. And that was, that piece of it was Regina and really thinking about how she likes to read books and that not all books are written the way that she would like to read them. I think for what we want people to take away from it, it's really we want you to find a chapter that feels like you and has that, I don't know, you can snuggle up in and it's like, here is the world I wanna create. Here's the thing I'm most interested in. Are you a plant girly? Cool. I bet you'll love the chapter on ancient methods. Do you wanna know why you know this country is such a mess? I bet the race and class chapter is gonna be great for you. Like what's race and class got to do with it? Do you love pop culture? The abortion on screen chapter is gonna be right there for you. You're gonna love it. There's so many different things and we really hoped that when people are reading it that they find that special little chapter that they can, I dunno, nuzzle into and just be like, this is all the stuff I love that they can nerd out in that chapter. And feel seen whatever that chapter is, hopefully it's multiple chapters. Hopefully it's the whole book. But we really wanted to hit every aspect. Whatever you nerd out on, we've got something for you. Yes. I think my favorite chapter is the Abortion Myths 'cause That is everyone's favorite chapter. Everyone loves that chapter. Get put in these situations where I don't know people, I guess because I have a social work background, people just wanna challenge me and like, keeping my composure. So , I really love the myths chapter because it's like I was talking to my intern the other day about writing public testimony for like legislative officials and she wrote her first one, got feedback on it. It was like, yeah, you gotta be a little nicer with the nice, nasty. So , I feel like the abortion myth chapter is like how you can be nice, nasty with opposition. Do you wanna know something wild? Yes. So when we were writing the book, the book contract was for 75 to a hundred thousand words. The book is at, I think 147,000 words. So essentially we needed to cut like three chapters. That was one of the ones that was gonna be on the chopping block. But I'm proud to say I refused to cut any of the chapters. And in particular, because with that chapter, it had a lot of myths and misconceptions about abortion that I didn't want to destroy the structure of the other chapters. Because it's filled with so much white supremacy and the myths are deeply white supremacist. They're deeply anti-Black. And what felt so important to me was that we don't sully the other chapters with them. Because I, I wanted to keep the focus on the liberation that Black and brown folks were fighting for and keeping it, our story, our narrative, and not move the spotlight to white supremacy and then right from a deficit of, well, here's what we didn't have. Actually, no. The whole book is designed to be written about, here's what we did have, and yes, white supremacy and colonization and genocide were things that happened and they're awful, and here's how we rose against them. Here's how we are on a constant path to liberation. And in particular, I remember talking about this with Regina and I was like, I will not put Margaret Sanger in our chapter on race and class or in the history chapter because I want it focused on the Black and brown folks and what we were doing. And I feel like she's such a, she's complicated and there's a lot there to unpack, and I felt like taking that and putting her in those chapters was gonna distract from being able to highlight the Black and brown heroes that we were highlighting in history and, and also like it needed to be unpacked in this larger conversation about Black genocide, because that's what she's brought up under that abortion is Black genocide. First off, babe. Abortion was here long before Margaret Sanger was a twinkle in her daddy's eye. It's here long after. And she didn't even like abortion. So what are you talking about? And that just felt like it was gonna be such a distraction, and I wanted to be able to wrap that up in a larger conversation of it's, it also wasn't just like we're tying Margaret Sanger to this. It is something that the young Lord said that Black Panther said justice Clarence Thomas says, right all this. And let's actually talk about the truth of who she was and, and that she worked with a lot of. Black elitist folks, heads of HBCUs because they were elitist that this idea that poor people shouldn't procreate wasn't, it's deeply anti-Black and it was not exclusive to Black people and elite using air quotes for the people listening to audio. Elites, Black people held this view. I mean, oh, rich Black folks have it now, that was what Bill Cosby was saying before he went to jail. He was talking about you need to pull your pants up all the time. And I think it's important to really unpack that. But yeah, that chapter is always a fascinating one. And also it was like there's so much. I mean, and not to say it's just about that, but that one's a, a big piece of that chapter and why, you know I advocated to keep it and to keep it separate.'cause I also was like, we can't write a book about the history of abortion without addressing this. Because this is the biggest question that I get that other people get from the anti-abortion side. And we want it to be able to address all of these things that people say about abortion all the time that people don't know how to respond to. You sometimes you just laugh them off because it's so dumb. But while at the time as we write about, yeah, it was dumb that they were saying that, you know, medication, abortion and baby parts were floating around in our drinking water. Which, you know, when I heard that went over a decade ago, I was like, girl, are you, what are y'all talking about? Now we've got rFK investigating it at HHS, we had the federal government putting legs to this 25 house Republicans wrote a letter to the EPA asking them to test for abortion pills in our water system last summer, and they do actually had the surveillance technology to do that. They say. So what we may be laughing off as this fringe conspiracy theory is something that they will use to surveil us, and I think it's so important that we help people understand that and that. All of this comes under this idea of surveillance and you know, criminalization, it's all abortion splaining. And we as people who care about this work, need to be able to have an answer for it. So we get into the silly things like abortion causes tornadoes and hurricanes and whatever, silly, right? But we talk about like, why do they say that? Because it helps distract from actually having a conversation about climate change. What, why do they want you to keep thinking that abortion is in your drinking water?'cause they want you to feel disgusted and they, they're playing on abortion stigma and hoping then that you won't support it. And then you might support these surveillance efforts that I promise you are gonna be used to criminalize Black and brown folks, particularly Black and brown parents, to have their children removed from them in the home. So, I think it's, it was a chapter that I'm really proud that I'm glad you love it and I'm, I'm proud that it's in there. And it was one of the original chapters that we were so excited to write and Regina and I had just such a great time, like looking up the weirdest things that people said. And originally that was abortion Splaining was gonna be like the title of the book. It was gonna be a countering abortion splaining. But the book, it grew as I said, you know, it's, it's like a, a, a, a being in that it, it grew into something else, to bigger, so we ended up changing the name. Mm, I really love the name Liberating Abortion, and I think that's why I was so connected to the book because a lot of social justice activists text are very deficit based, like how do we need to burn it all down? And a lot of my liberation philosophy is like, okay, we can't just be living in ashes. What is the world we wanna build after we tear down the harmful systems like have to radical imagination for that as well. And I love this idea of looking to the ancestors, looking to what was done before. Because like the saying goes, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. How can we, with all of the technological advances that we have now utilize what they had in the past when they had very limited resources, but still fighting for freedom. How can we continue that legacy? And I think that's why this book is so important, but at the same time, so hard, especially something so personal. So I wanted to ask what keeps you grounded in this work as a writer? Ooh. around abortion too. It's funny 'cause during book tour people are like, oh my gosh, it's so funny. You know, you're, how do you stay upbeat when you're talking about this? And I don't know, I just don't know any other way. I mean, it's why I wear my yellow, it just feels like, I mean, yes it matches the book, but it's also just like bright and fun and beautiful and it feels like a new day. I think that. Keeps me grounded is, I mean, it's like being on a book tour. I mean, when I came to visit you all in North Carolina, or South Carolina. Sorry, South Carolina. I also did North Carolina and South Carolina. It's just you all are facing such insurmountable odds and yet you're organizing. Seeing how many people came out for that walk for the Monks for peace, that community still wanna come outside and build a better world. And yes, we're always gonna tussle with what it means to build that world. But like the fact that we're all still dreaming feels really, really important and critical. I think yeah, just knowing that there are so many brilliant people doing this work and getting to be in community with them, that is what keeps me so happy. And I mean, to your point about the title, there's so much to be down about. They're a lot of, even the campaigns within the reproductive rights movements, you know, bans off our bodies and things like that, yeah, that's declaring something, but it's still centering the harm that they're doing to us. And it's like, okay, so we want the bans off our bodies. Okay, and then what? What do we want next? And at that time when that campaign, you know, the rest of us had had a campaign called the Liberating Abortion Movement. It would liberate, oh, it was liberate abortion. And I was part of the committee that like came up with that name and we had these themes of flowers and green and growth and all of this stuff. And the campaign was really incredible. But the larger organizations did not latch onto it and did not promote it as very much or at all. Because they wanted the more deficit, you know, bans off our bodies campaign and I think it was interesting that, you know, the liberate abortion campaign was led by folks on the ground who, and folks of color who were dreaming and wanted creativity and joy and looking for something different. And yeah, we knew Roe was going to fall and we knew that people would be outraged about that. But I guess I think about. That deficit base or that outrage as like candy? Yes, you get that sugar high and you are outraged for a moment, but it's not gonna sustain you. It's not going to give you the energy that you need for tomorrow. And what has been so important and beautiful was being on book tour and being able to have conversations with people on the ground about what we can all do in our different communities to liberate abortion, to move toward abolition, decriminalizing abortion and going places where people are surprised that I would come, which I don't know why, but they'll be like, oh, wow, you'll come here. And I'm like, yeah, y'all got an airport, don't you there's a, there's a highway to get there. No. Are y'all, y'all lucked up? I don't understand. You know, is it, is it an island with no boats? I don't I don't understand. Is there a high fence? I can't climb? I don't, I don't get it. But I think it is really frustrating that the, the folks who are doing some of the hardest work in our movement think that people won't come have these conversations in their communities. And I think that that's the only way that we will win. And that is what just keeps me joyful and grounded and, and moving forward in this work. Just being around them. I definitely feel similarly 'cause people ask me how do you keep showing up at the State House? And I'm just like, child one, I'm not worried about those people. I just do it because a lot of people can't. And what keeps me going is I, when I enter those rooms in the public audience, there's someone often in front of me, left, right and behind me You're not alone. who we're making faces with. Like, we're in this together. So I never feel alone in this work. And if anything, it is just a, a chance to Kiki with some of my friends, although I am working on separating joy and work with my therapist. So I, it's I gotta hang out with my friends outside of doing they house and stuff work too. So. know, it's funny because I was once dating this person who was like. I think it looked down on me made a comment and said like, or asked how I met a bunch of my friends and I said that, you know, well, you know, I met them. We used to work together, we used to do this, we used to do that. And I was like, do you know all your friends from work? And I had this moment I couldn't figure out what it was that was so annoying to me about that. But it was like this judgment and when you're doing this type of work, it's not just a job, like you work at a bank. No, I'm choosing to hang out with people who believe in the same type of liberation that I do. And also a bunch of us don't even work at the same place now. Some people have left the movement, some people do other things like whatever. But that actually to me is a beautiful place to find friends because it means that you have a deep core value together about the way you think the world should be. And you problem solve in a similar vision, not the same way 'cause we're all very different people and all that, but we all know that. We get, we're going in the same direction. And there are friends that I've had for now, 15 years in doing this work. And people ask us, one of my best friends and I, when people ask us how we met at the same time, we literally just go abortion. And then people are like, oh yeah. And we're like, okay. And then they're like, yeah, but how and where did you meet? And sometimes I actually don't remember where I met them. It's just like they've always been by my side. I don't know. Others, you know, we can think about little moments in which we sort of like had our me cute or fell in love, and I think that that's just so beautiful. I also think that it's really important that we know each other beyond whatever that is. Like, one of my friends actually last night, she and I and her husband and then one of my other best friend's husbands went to a, a horror theater production 'cause we all like horror. The other best friend whose husband I was with, he, she doesn't like horror. So like we ha he and I hang out and watch more. Like, and then she and I hang out and do things. Just that we can have other things and enjoy other things together, and we are trying to build a better world together, which feels really wonderful. Hmm. Like why I love my organizer friends. Yeah. It also makes it great when you're picking a restaurant and you'll, and you'll be like, oh, we can't go there. And they're like, why? And you're like, oh whatever happened, you know, they didn't support the, the one fair wage campaign here, or that actually, that chef is a, there's a strike on there, or that chef is a Trump supporter or whatever. No questions asked. You don't have to fight about oh. But, but you know, their French toast is so good. Yeah. And so is liberation. do you have. to bring Why you have to bring race into it? Why you gotta bring this in that I, it's funny 'cause when people talk about hearing that I, I don't know what that life, and some people might say that, well, you live in a bubble and, okay. Because I'm protecting my peace, and why would I expend energy with someone who does not want to build the same beautiful world that I want to build? I'm depriving them of my, that person of my joy, i'm not gonna sit here and piss myself off for what? So anyway. which is different. Our bubble is different from like, oh, I just don't engage. Oh yeah. no, you need to engage. But in a world set on destroying us people who look like us and Right, right, yes. We need to protect our bubbles. right. And also it's not, and also it's funny because I think they assume that because you live in a bubble, you don't disagree with people. No, we do disagree with people. We disagree with people on how beautiful our world should be, what shade of beautiful it is, and how we get there. Not are, are queer people, humans, like, is do we allow abortion as a medical procedure? I don't know. You know, we just, we disagree on how many clinics to have per cl per block, you know which I think. You need people to be able to dream and vision with. Otherwise, you're just stuck in what's not possible. And it's not like, I don't know what's going on with the haters. It's on the news all the time. I'm surrounded by it anyway. It's, it's not where I spend my free time. That's for. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So my last question for us today is, what advice would you offer listeners who wanna make a positive impact in their communities? Look around wherever you live. I am, I'm sure there's an abortion fund in your community. So look for that. Go to their events and you'll find some people who do whatever the thing is that you want to do. If you like picking people to take them to their clinic. I've done that for many years and I love it. There's usually an abortion fund that does practical support. They always need people help with fundraising. And you like party planning, babe? Lemme tell you. Abortion funds love to throw parties. Abortion clinics, independent abortion clinics love parties and need people to throw fundraisers for them. Whatever those skills are that you have, there's something you can do in your community. And I think it's really important to read and learn, like don't stop learning. I, I think one of the challenges is that people are like, okay, cool, I got it. And they stop there. I understand what reproductive justice is, and then they stop learning and then all of a sudden you find yourself behind a bit. And I think it's important to read ideas that are different from your own and ideas that you disagree with? Again, not in the, like, I don't mean like reading like white supremacist ideas, I mean ideas that are kind of like maybe more left than you are. I read a lot of things that I'm like, oh shit, this. Oh wow, okay. They over here, I'm reading this like, am I, am I a Republican? Wow. Okay. Like that's how I feel every time I go, organized with folks in Europe and like all around the world, I'm like, God, am I, they got me looking like a conservative out here. And I think that that keeps you thinking more creatively and, and learning about other parts of the world, learn about other movements and then think about how that's connected. You know, books I love rooted by Bria Baker is an incredible one. Becoming Abolitionists by De Perel or Pernell. I loved that one. It was absolutely just like wonderful. One that people who care about repro should read is by my best friend is, relinquished by Dr. Gretchen Sissen. It's about adoption and basically adoption is a failure of us not having a social safety net for low income families and that people, birth parents are coerced into it and like it's from the birth parents' perspective. That book really, really opened my eyes. Read books about Palestine, read, read books about the US imperialism, understand what is the machine that we are actually. Paying taxes too and how that's impacting the rest of the world. So yeah, I think it's like, get involved in your community and keep reading Well, a liberation is lit. We love for people to keep reading and I'll link all of the books in the show notes so people can get them and keep, won't fall behind. Yes. Also, if you love if you, you care about abortion and you're like, cute, but babe, I'm like not really into reading a nonfiction right now. I hear you. And there's a ton of incredible fiction books with abortion and repro in them. One of 'em by Mia Mackenzie is these heathens. So good. Leila Motley's the girls who grew Big, incredible, she's just like an incredible writer. Night, night crawling. Her other book is incredible. There's really just like so many good ones. But I made a list on bookshop on my little like shop or whatever on bookshop that has a list of books with abortion in them. And so you should totally check those out. Yes, and definitely I'm cosigning on the girls who grew big because I think this is the third podcast episode where that book has come up. It's incredible. Yes it is. And that might be a sign. I need to get Leila Mottley on the Yes. I shot my shot, but I haven't heard back from her people. She's incredible. I interviewed her when she came and did her book Event at Politics and Prose and she's just, she's absolutely brilliant. So. Yes. In addition to the books I'm adding to the show notes, where can people find you and keep up your work? And I'll put Regina's things in the Yeah, both me and Regina, you can find us on socials. Her handles are by. It's by Regina Mahon. On I think everything yes, everything. I am at Renee Bracey Sherman on almost everything except Twitter, but whatever. I'm not even there anymore, so who cares? And then you can find us. And the book at liberatingabortion.org. I'm renee bra sherman.com and she's by regina mahome.com. And you can find us. We're still on tour. We're all over the place with this book, so, you know, we'll hopefully be in a community near you and if we haven't been or aren't, be like, reach out to us and we'd love to come to your community and like have an event. And you can imagine this beautiful energy in person. It's, it's great. We have a really fun event, I promise. I think people come in expecting this, you know, the world is on fire and this is awful and we need to defend abortion with everything possible. And yeah, I mean I believe those things and also like, let's talk about what we wanna do and how important all this is and build together. Yeah. Exactly, and it's, that's my type of a good time. Thank you so much, Renee, for being on the podcast, and thank you listeners for being a part of the podcast as well. If you have stories you wanna share, wanna suggest any topics or just wanna connect, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok at Liberation is Lit, or our website at liberationislit.com. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a review. And remember, your voice matters and together through the lens of stories, we're gonna make a difference in the world. Until next time.