The Worms Will Save the World (with Kevin Doyle)

In this episode, we sit with writer Kevin Doyle to discuss his children’s book The Worms That Saved the World. Joining from Cork, Ireland, Kevin shares his background and explains that he wanted children’s books with a political angle influenced by his left-wing interests. The book imagines a hopeful alternate ending to a real-life campaign in which earthworms organize, set ground rules, and win back their land, emphasizing collective power, solidarity, and mutual aid. He advises listeners to show solidarity, stand up for targeted community workers, practice everyday kindness, and organize together. 

00:00 Welcome to Liberation is Lit + Meet Kevin Doyle

01:45 From Chemist to Writer: Why Political Kids’ Books Matter

03:31 The Real Cork Land Fight That Inspired the Story

06:34 Imagining a Win: Turning Activism Into a Hopeful Ending

08:39 Making Organizing Kid-Friendly: Mutual Aid, Conflict & Staying Positive

11:32 Why Earthworms? Tiny Creatures, Big Environmental Power

13:55 Stories as Environmental Education (Beavers, Compost & Curiosity)

17:08 Self-Publishing the Book When Publishers Said No

19:45 Staying Grounded: Writing the Stories That Aren’t Being Told

24:15 Advice for Community Impact: Solidarity, Kindness & Organizing Together

27:43 Where to Find the Book + Closing Thanks

Kevin’s Book: 

The Worms That Saved the World

Other Books Mentioned

Beaver Girl

Where to Find Kevin

kevindoyle.ie

Thank you for being part of the Liberation is Lit podcast! If you have stories to share, want to suggest topics, or just want to connect, find us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @liberationislit or visit our website at liberationislit.com. If you enjoyed the episode, please consider leaving a review! Remember, your voice matters, and together, through the lens of stories, we're making a difference in the world.

Transcript

0:09

Hey y'all. Welcome to the Liberation is Lit Podcast, where the power of storytelling, force of social change. I'm your host, Tayler Simon, and in this podcast we believe in the profound impact of stories. And I'm so excited y'all like. I remember years ago when I, before Liberation is Lit, was even a bookstore. I worked with Kevin and got a copy of the book, the Worms that Saved the World, and it was just so amazing to me that I definitely had to share. So welcome Kevin. Thank you for being so much. Thank you so much for being a part of the podcast. No, I'm delighted to be here and thanks so much for inviting me to, to chat about the book and just to maybe chat your listeners about the various things in the book. Now I'm, I'm very honored to be asked. Thank you. Yes, and tell the listeners where you are joining us from. So I'm, I'm all the way over in Ireland, crossing the other side of the ocean and down in cork in the, in the south coast. And I have to confess at the moment, we've had gray skies for I think nearly about it seems like for months and months and months. So we're not at our very best at the moment and we're all extremely wet from the rain. Other than that, it's, it's a great place to be in the summer. Oh yes, and we've had winter here. I'm in South Carolina and we never get snow and we got like six inches of snow, so everybody's freaking out. Like, what do we do? I didn't leave the house so. Yes. So can you us off by telling us a little bit about yourself as a writer and what inspired you to write a children's book about organizing and community and the environment? Alright. Well, I, we, I, I, I started off, I actually, trained as an industrial chemist, and I worked for many years in a, in a pharmaceutical plant and stuff here in Ireland and, and also in the States. And I, I did wanna make a, I, I've always loved books, loved reading when I was growing up, and I kind of always thought I'd like to, to, to write. And I, I started off really on short stories and things and I, I've, I've written a lot of short stories kind of and also, a number of fiction books, but I was really struck at one stage. We had my niece who's only very young, and we were looking for some books for her. This was going well back and there was, there was loads of great children's books, but we're looking for something with a slight bit of a political. Angle on it. You know, at the time I think it was I, I'm, I'm from a left-wing background, so I'm always been interested in social ideas and working class and unionization. I was kind of looking for something like that. But there was very few books around, you know, you really had to search. So when I got more confidence as a writer, I really started thinking more about the idea of trying to write a book o of my own that would maybe fill in some of those, those, you know, boxes. And it's funny. I think that's been a, a, a thing I think is really important in a way, sometimes with books, if they're not there, you, you have to write 'em yourself. And maybe that's another reason to, to, to be a writer. And I, this idea for the, the worms that saved the world came. From something that happened very local to us here in Cork, which was just a very beautiful scenic area. It's about 20 miles away. And it was taken over by a, a group of developers. It had been farmland, and the developers decided they were going to. They actually bought the headland outright and said, we're gonna put a luxury golf course on it. And they demanded as a re as, as a result of this, that they would extinguish all the rights of people to walk on the headland. And it was a, it had been because of its beauty. A lot of people walked there, rambled on the hills and so on. And also there's a lot of bird migration paths cross over the headline. A lot of different people were really upset about it, and a campaign got under the way to try and stop the, the takeover of the, of the section of land and. Sadly, we didn't win that campaign. It was a really great campaign, very, very fun campaign. A lot of people involved in it, a lot of families, different groups, different communities. But in the end we didn't win. It went to court, and the, the court side with the landowners and our, sorry, with the, the developers and then the police. Got involved and became very difficult to, to keep it non-violent. But the, the upshot of it was that some of us, it was still very inspiring to be involved in it. And some of us thought, I, I, I at the time was thinking I a childrens and I thought it would be lovely to kind of celebrate some of the positive things about it. And it was around that idea that I thought, well, could I write a children's book? And one, one of the key issues for me is I'm not an illustrator and I can't draw at all. So I knew I needed to try and hook up with a, a really, you know, someone who was interested, but in a story and in, in, in, you know, illustrating. And I searched around and searched around and I do there was one other person who I often saw at the, protest and I knew she was a really great artist and I asked her, spark Deley is her name, and she decided she'd be interested in it. And we worked to together on the book, you know, over quite a while. And spark was brilliant. Her illustrations are really, I think, the key to the book's success because she has a beautiful, warm form of illustration that really. Makes even sometimes kind of difficult ideas sort of seem something that you can approach and look at and think about. And I think that's really good for, for children's books. And so it was really meeting Spark and working with her that. Made the plan to, to, to bring the book to life sort of possible. So that was the, that was that, that, that's the long way around telling you that, you know, it was finding such a great illustrator that really made the, the big difference. I love that and I love how the story is based on a real life situation of community coming together to save the land and make it accessible for everyone, not just privately owned or for the elite I really liked that book was an opportunity to imagine a different scenario about , what if we win? And that's a question that we often don't ask a ask ourselves in community level work. Yeah, I, I think you're, you're absolutely right. It was it was, it was a, it was a lovely thing to be able to, in a way, work on the story as fiction, even though based on a real event, because fiction is that classic thing. As you know yourself, it allows you to imagine. So many different possibilities and actually imagining, because we knew with a children's book and with many books, you, you, you know, you want the. bring a good conclusion. In this case, we wanted it to be a happy conclusion, so we knew we were going to the, the earthworms who, who fight for their patch of land and, and try and win it for themselves, get back their hope. We knew in the end they had to win. So in some ways it was a very joyful book to be involved in. And also it. Did gather up a little bit of of the campaign and many people who were involved in the campaign, even though they knew it hadn't been successful in in real life, were really happy to see the book and to sort of say, ah, brilliant, you know, this is this is the outcome we, we wanted, but at least now we have a book that that, you know, shows us what was like, so it was really, there's a lot of, it's funny how it. So many with positive things. Sometimes you get such extra affirmation. It's really lovely to be involved in it. Right, because we definitely need some positivity to keep us going in this work. Oh yeah. So, I know you talked a little bit about Spark's illustrations, really helping to drive home the point and make it accessible for children. But as far as the story itself, how did you approach simplifying complex topics like. coming up with like ground rules and how everybody's gonna work together and, all of those topics. How did you approach simplify, simplifying those topics for a younger audience? I, I guess we, we, at the background in, in the background, I think I, I have, I'm quite influenced by anarchist ideas and stuff and I was very familiar with, works of the, the thinker Kropotkin. And he had done a lot of work on mutual aid and on the idea of, you know, instead of competition and, in, in the natural world, there's actually a lot of cooperation as well, and that was almost a, that was an idea that it always sat with me and we kind, we kind of know it a bit in our, in our lives. You know, we see so much cooperation despite all the competition that's kind of put on us and that seemed to be an idea to. To run with in terms of a children's book because the children I think are very, sort of they're both honest and also they're, they're very, they can be very welcoming of other things happening and wanting to help out. We, we, we wanted to build on that in terms of the spirit of it, but we, we had couple of different, kind of just con conversations about situations in the book where we thought, how will we deal with conflict? Because when you are, when you're, when you're talking with kids, and we we're aware some of our audience might be readers might be quite young. How would that work? You know, what kind of conflict should we have there? So we have, we have won. We have one illustration where there's a, an airplane's dropping. It's dropping weed killer on the course to sort of kill all the weeds. And it's a kind of a, it's a bit of a serious image for a children's book. And oddly enough, it, it's taken from a real life event, you know, of where nap was dropped in Vietnam and we had all these sorts of different ideas coming in. So we were thinking, how can we make it, how can we make it work within the book? So we tried to be generally positive and sometimes where we had in. Even where we had things like the, all the air airports needing to flee from the dangers they were in, we made, we made that into a fun activity. They went down under the ground into very strange tunnels and you know, they had to hack away at a little bit of ground to get through. And then when they ended up where they were going to be safe, it was actually a place where pirates used to be long ago. So they had a. You know, we turn that into a kind of a positivity. So we all, we always try to keep a sort of a positive aspect to things, even when they weren't going so well. And that, that seems to be, I think that, and the other thing is going back to it against sparks really warm images, I think, and the worms themselves, that some people have said to us, why did you pick out worms? And, you know, some people are, are quite. I don't really like earthworms, in fairness, I'll admit it. But we, we liked them because we just thought they, they're just so many of them. They do so much for the environment and they're, they're working way all the time underground, which we, we like that idea of the underground, the sort of working to undermine the system from underground. And also there's such a lot of, if you really want to get a big group of, of. Anything together? Well, a lot of earthworms could pack a big punch, I think, in terms of being absolutely you know, a great collective community. So we, Oh, and I love that. Literally they're little people fighting the big forces that seem so insurmountable and they, they they show coming together, even though individually they're small, coming I. made a large impact. And that's like one of my favorite messages from the book. So I love how just people we would think, or things that we would think are so tiny and insignificant and how they were able to just defeat Goliath. So I love that as well. Yeah. And the funny thing later on, we, we learned a bit more about their environmental role and it's, it's big, it's really so significant. Of course, if, if the earthworms suffer in terms of the land and you know. So many other things start to are, are adversely affected in terms of our ability to grow crops and things. So they turned out to be sort of these amazing creatures that, you know, I'll even admit, I like the idea of them as a, as a huge community, but. Their, their work in, in this planet is like extraordinary, you know? And it was, was sort of a, it's a lovely aspect to the book as well and has, has kinda spun off an interest in just earthworms as and what to do and the rolling in compost making and stuff. So it was good. Now I have to go down a rabbit hole with all the earthworm things because like they. Is a local author here Cassie Primo Steele. She wrote a book called Beaver Girl. And it's, environmental dystopian set in Columbia, South Carolina. But it really, a Beaver family is central to the book and. Why I had my eyes open about just how important beavers are to the waterways. So Columbia is a city where two three rivers meet. So beavers are really important to that ecosystem and how they really try their best to slow down the, The climate crisis, but they could only do so much with humans just continuing to extract from the land. So similarly to earthworms, like I love this idea of in the inherent dignity and worth and value that animals have. That it's not just humans who have value on this planet, they are doing so much of the unasked for, and, Literally dirty work that we as humans benefit from. Yeah. Yeah, I think and, you know, it's, it's great. It's, it's. Great to be part of the thing with the story is just the story, but you can talk about all these aspects as well in the story. You know, if you're reading it to, to, to a cater and thing. And I mean, children love that idea of, I mean, one of the big things is all the questions you get when you read a story like that. There's like, why is this, why, why, why are they doing that? And, and so on and so forth. And it's, it's a great opportunity in an educational sense. Just to talk about, you know, the environment, it's rolled, compost, and as you say, even with something like beavers, how, however, every sort of everything plays a part in this kind of beautiful planet and. Where, you know, well, it's, it's not us all, but there's a lot of corporate responsibility in really dumping on, on communities and on riverways. And we've, we've had a lot, we've had identical issues here. With Riverways being polluted and the beaver community in, in serious trouble there, you know? So it's, it's and, and the whole thing of pollution on the land as well, that I'm farming that with intensive farming. So you get a chance to talk about all those things, which are great, I think for young kids.'cause they'll take them, they'll take them with them through their life, you know? Right. And I love how you said like we want stories that prompt a lot more questions for kids than that. They can then take that curiosity and start learning more about other things. So this book, I didn't realize how much nuance this book really tackles. I was just focused on the community the environmental impacts, but it's literally so much to it, and gonna keep recommending it to all my organizer friends who have any child in their life. Thank you so much. No, it's great. I mean, it's, it's, it, it is a book that when, when we got it going, we, we had no, we couldn't get a publisher interested in it, which I think is another interest. Maybe I'm cutting into a, a new area, but. W you know, it was one of those things where we, we, in the end, it, it didn't fit into any of the categories normal for publishing, you know? Oh, it's not, it's not quite that age group, you know, and it doesn't seem to end in some of the topics there. Aren't they really suitable for book again, in the end? We, we had to after numerous, I, I, I would say we were almost a year and a half going through publishers who all said no. And in the end, as, as even Spark said, we publish it ourselves. And you know, it was the best thing we did because we didn't have any editorial issues and we were sure of the book. We were always a little bit worried if we, if we do get a publisher, are they gonna want some of this cut out or some of that cut out, you know, so here in the end, we had our own sort of story and we do, we were happy to go with it and we got great support then from so many people, including yourself, that it's, it's sort of word of mouth. It's gone out and it just, it, it, it ticks away nicely as a book now with people seeming to get new things from it all the time, which is lovely. Yes, and it can be a lot to self-publish, but there is so much power and empowerment that comes from self-publishing that you don't have to water down a message. For, the end of the day, a business that de deems a story marketable or not. So I, that's why I love self-publishing as well, and I'm so glad you didn't let lack of publisher interest stop you from getting this beautiful book into the world. No thank you. Oh, absolutely. You know, it, it is, it does take, it takes a bit of courage, I think, sometimes to, to, to step into the self-publishing world. But so many writers do it and, and, and have done it. And we'll do it in the future. I think with the pub, with the publishing industry going the way it is, it's, it's in serious trouble now. I think in many ways. In terms of how Orthodox it's become and how mainstream they don't want to, I think they don't want to. You know, a chance on anything that's a bit different where, whereas we have these stories, I mean, these stories are there and they're waiting to be told, and there aren't the publishers there, I think now sometimes to take them on. And that's why you have to, as you say, go take on the self publishing route and it's, it is very rewarding in that sense. So speaking of work, but also the rewarding from the work, what keeps you grounded in your work with community as a writer in anything that you do. What really keeps you grounded and keeps you going, and how do you take care of yourself? Well, I think I, I, I think it's, you know, I, I definitely think the writing, the writing publishing situation, ha I, you know, I'm is, has got more difficult even say in my time in, in writing. But I, I, I definitely think a thing that keeps me going is the idea that. The stories that I want to tell anyways, just speaking personally about myself, stories I want to tell are not being told, are not out there. And for instance, one of my nonfic, one of my fiction books at the moment in, in the adult fiction is is a book about a, a workplace accident in a pharmaceutical plant. Going back to my background there and it's, it's about a corporate coverup. Of just one person's death. But it's, it's those, I, I just know myself, it's a lot of, you know, workplace safety is a big issue everywhere in, in the states, in Ireland, and. Those stories just so rarely get told. So for me, sometimes I go back to my own reserve and say, well, if I don't write this story, it won't be written. You know, at least so far as I can see anyway, I, I wish someone else would write it, but I don't see sometimes anything else of a more left wing nature and I'm happy to kind. Be in that area and say, I, I can write things that I know will bring a new angle and bring a new perspective to a reader if, if they choose to read a book. So I think that's certainly something I kind of have fallen back on again. Again, like I'd say certainly the types I've thought about myself. I'm not so sure if I can keep going at this, but you know you, you, you, you, then you do find, I think keeping a couple of projects going all the time is very important and, I feel almost now because, you know, I'm sure we all feel the political climate has got very, very cold and has, has got very difficult and I think it seems all the more reason now that you, we need to keep our stories out there. There's, there's so many things that have to be spoken about and talked about, and writers are often the people who will do that. There's plenty of other people will do it as well, of course, and that, that's great. People from union organizers, community activists, but certainly writers can sometimes bring a new dimension to something. I recall many years ago, the, the, the, the glaswegian writer, James Cameron saying that writing was one of the few things that are really free anymore. And he's, you know, he was made the point that, you know, you, we still have a lot of freedom. No one can really think that from us. Now, do Mike. Ignore us or not publishers, but we still have the ability to tell stories that are our own and that are important and, and that are true. So I, I kind of hold to that, you know, that try and keep going on that level. I. Yes, that's my inspiration too. And that's why I love promoting books like this because these are important stories to get in the hands of people, to have them think differently. Question what they've always believed to just be normal or that they don't have power. And that's why I do what I do with abrasion is lit. So thank you for putting the stories out in the world. To challenge the status quo. Welcome. I'm delighted, and as I say, you know, getting, it's sometimes when your book hits it's a chord somewhere else far away. As, as you know, you, you are it's great. You know, and we've, it's, it's been lovely to hear back from people from all different places. You know yourself as a writer and you, you hear sometimes from people unexpectedly and they'll say, oh, you know, that was really great. And it's, I think that's, that makes it all work. That it's, it's, it's so nice to, to hear that, that you've connected with someone. Yes, and so my last question for you is, what advice would you offer listeners who wanna make a positive impact in their communities? Yeah, I was thinking about this, you know, that, you know, I, I think I, I know of one level. The thing that really comes to my mind first off is, I think it's so important now to show solidarity in a sort of broad sense.'cause we've had that issue here. InCorp, we've had a lot of trouble actually. We, we had trouble with people targeting our libraries and trying to stop certain books being lbt plus books being, and, you know, a lot of the library workers suffered a lot of harassment and then gradually people came together. We had a very big march in solidarity with the library workers and with the libraries and you know, I think it's so off these people, the far right and so on. And I think that was a great example. I think sometimes that there's nothing else for it, but test stand up, show solidarity, and be there for people. And I kind of, that's on one level, but. I suppose on a, on a sort of smaller scale, everyday level, I, I think, you know, it's just important to be, to be good and be nice to people and you know, do little things around, you know, that that, that sort, I, I think in a way, a bit of kindness every day. Something that helps such a lot in a, in a sort of world that sometimes seems to have done mad with social media and, and just busyness and, and time poverty. I don't know. It's, it's sometimes it's just at the ordinary human connection is what can make the big difference. And we all can do a little bit, you know. But yeah, I suppose as a political person, I, I, I always say. At the end of the day, we, we, we've gotta keep going and organize with people in our communities and we can make a difference. You know, we can really do things, which is maybe one of the themes of our book, that we can really do things when we stand together. And I certainly think that's a message to keep, keep putting out there to people young and old. Yes, a message. generational, cross continental, every, everybody needs the message of solidarity, human connection because they want us to be divided because we're less powerful when we're divided, so I love that so much. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we can really, you know, I, I know a little bit about the history of the states and the different things from union organizing, the fighting racism. I mean, you, the story is inspirational, you know, and we sometimes we look over to the states and we see things that have been done there. By community activists and by movements, and it's like, it's great to see it, you know, it's like so many fabulous examples of people, you know, standing up for themselves and winning, winning real change. Yes, and just seeing the work that's being done around the world and learning from other people, and people learning from our struggles. It's all, it's all very connected and we're all connected, so we're all in this together. Once we realize then. It's. Yes, exactly. Nobody's coming to save us. No aliens gonna swoop down like we have to save us. No, absolutely. So thank you so much Kevin, again for being on the podcast. Where can people keep up with your writing the worms that save the world? Where can people find all of that good stuff on the internet? Well, I've got a, I've got a webpage, which is my name, Kevin Doyle, and it's Kevin Doyle, ie. So it's it's, it's the IE. Is a, an Irish domain name. So if, if you look for Kevin Doyle. Writer or something. You should, you should come across me or Kevin Doyle, ie. And I, I'm here and there on Instagram and things, but all I only, I don't post too much on that. So the website's the best place to find any of the books and any information and we, we have, we're working on a new book, myself and Spark now I follow up to it and, and nice little progress being made in it. So we, we'll, we'll maybe have a chance to chat about that at another time into the future. Yes, definitely, and I'm definitely gonna put the website on the show notes so people can keep up with the updates there. This was so great. I'm ex. Excited for the new book to come through. Like y'all don't realize like we have to finagle postage to get these books here so you can get them on. Liberation is lit. Can you get them on your website as well? Can get 'em on on our website as well, and also AK press in in California. I think they're out there. They, they also have stock of the book and have, have definitely, they'll also send them out probably at a more reasonable cost if you're state side. So but yeah, yourselves and, and AK press there are, there are big supporters and we're really grateful for it. Yes, love AK Press. I'm gonna put the link to just AK Press in general. They have a ton of great resources in books. Fantastic. so I'm gonna put all of those in the show notes. So thank you again, Kevin, and thank you listeners for being a part of the Liberation is Lit Podcast. If you have stories you wanna share, wanna suggest any topics or just wanna connect with us, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok at Liberation is Lit, or visit our website, liberation is lit.com. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a review. And remember, your voice matters and through the lens of stories, we're gonna make a difference in the world. Until next time. Thanks so much Tayler. Really.