Good Neighbor Podcast: TN-WNC-SWVA
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Good Neighbor Podcast: TN-WNC-SWVA
EP# 272: Healing Beyond Traditional Therapy: Dr. Sandra Newes on Ketamine-Assisted Psychotherapy
What makes Dr. Sandra Newes a good neighbor?
Suffering doesn't have to be permanent. That's the powerful message Dr. Sandra Newes brings to this eye-opening conversation about ketamine-assisted psychotherapy (KAP) - an innovative approach helping people find relief when traditional treatments fall short.
With over 25 years of experience as a psychologist, Dr. Newes specializes in helping individuals with chronic stress, anxiety, depression, and trauma. She explains how ketamine's unique properties allow patients to process deeply held trauma that's otherwise inaccessible, creating breakthrough moments for those who've struggled for years. "It allows them to see themselves differently," she explains, helping people escape that persistent "grinding feeling" of anxiety or the "heavy blanket" of depression.
What makes this conversation particularly fascinating is learning how ketamine evolved from an emergency room anesthetic to a powerful therapeutic tool. Dr. Newes walks us through the comprehensive treatment process that includes preparation sessions, medicine experiences, and integration work - all carefully guided by trained professionals. The science is compelling, but it's the human element that truly resonates as she shares how this approach has transformed lives when nothing else worked.
Beyond her clinical practice, Dr. Newes discusses her work with the Living Medicine Institute, where she trains medical and mental health professionals in this emerging field. She addresses common misconceptions, emphasizing that ketamine therapy isn't "overly crazy" or exclusively for those already familiar with psychedelics. In fact, she notes that those who benefit most are often individuals who've never explored alternative states of consciousness.
Whether you're someone struggling with persistent mental health challenges, a professional interested in expanding your therapeutic toolkit, or simply curious about cutting-edge approaches to healing, this conversation offers valuable insights into what might be possible. As Dr. Newes so powerfully states: "Suffering is pervasive, and there are ways out of suffering." Her work represents one such pathway, bringing hope to those who need it most.
Discover more about Dr. Sandra Newes's work at sandranewes.com or learn about professional training opportunities at livingmedicineinstitute.com.
To learn more about Dr. Sandra Newes go to:
Dr. Sandra Newes
(828) 545-0437
This is the Good Neighbor Podcast, the place where local businesses and neighbors come together. Here's your host, Skip Monty.
Speaker 2:Well, hello everyone and welcome to the Good Neighbor Podcast. So I am very excited today to have a very special guest in our studio, and I'm sure you will be as well, because today I have the pleasure of introducing your good neighbor, dr Sandra Nunes, who is the owner operator of Clearview Psychological Services. Dr Nunes, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3:Hi there, Thanks so much for having me Skip. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Well, we're thrilled to have you, like I said, excited to learn all about you and what you do. So if you don't mind, why don't you kick us off by telling us about your business?
Speaker 3:good. So, um, yeah, so I'm dr Sandra newest. A lot of people call me sandy. You can find me as both online and I am a psychologist in Asheville, north Carolina and I have over 25 years of experience working with kind of complex issues chronic stress, anxiety, depression, underlying kind of complex issues, chronic stress, anxiety, depression, underlying kind of you know developmental and relational trauma and PTSD and I currently do ketamine-assisted psychotherapy to work with all of those issues and it's a really intensive clinical intervention where we use the medicine ketamine as a tool to really help get at underlying issues that are often really difficult to get to with kind of traditional mental health practices and I found it to be really effective as part of a psychotherapy process for people that have really had a lifetime of suffering. And then I also have Living Medicine Institute, which is a business where we provide training resources and content to clinical and medical professionals who are actually interested in learning about ketamine-assisted psychotherapy and how to incorporate that into their practice.
Speaker 2:Wow, fascinating. You do a lot.
Speaker 3:You sound busy, well, I mean it's really kind, longstanding, you know, struggles that they have tried to address through different types of therapy, different types of medications, and they just can't get to where they can really get rid of that kind of grinding feeling in their belly or in their, you know, in their stomachs that just kind of like keep them in that perpetual state of you know like kind of feeling like the world's about to fall apart and or just that depression.
Speaker 3:That's just like that heavy blanket and, and you know, while it ketamine and working with that as part of ketamine, assisted psychotherapy, which we refer to as CAP, is not it's not, you know panacea and it's not a perfect tool and it doesn't work for everybody. It definitely has been something that has brought, you know, a lot of people relief in ways that nothing else that I've tried up until this point has, and I have really done a lot of different types of therapy and have been at this for a long time. So I'm sold, I love it, I think it's really effective and I also enjoy teaching and training about it. So it's an exciting new way of helping people relieve suffering. How did you get?
Speaker 2:started in the psychological arena.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I mean I've been studying psychotherapy since 1993. But in terms of working with psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, I've been tracking the research of that really since the 90s and have been following that and my whole career has been about various forms of non-ordinary states. So I did outdoor-based therapeutic work, I've done mindfulness work. I've done, you know, different types of mindfulness practices and wilderness work and you know dance and movement and other forms of experiential types of psychotherapy. So I was already doing that work and then as I became as kind of, you know, psychedelic assisted psychotherapy started to move, you know, into the public awareness in maybe you know around I don't know the research around other types of psychedelics and MDMA started in the, also in the nineties, and so really tracking that and then kind of coming to realize that ketamine has never been illegal and that actually has a lot of those same properties and it's done in a medically supervised way, we do it either I do it either in my individual therapy office without a medical team there, where we use an intranasal administration which is much more affordable, or I also work at a local clinic that does IV ketamine and that's more of a medically supervised approach and there's a difference in cost and kind of pros and cons of each of the different approaches. But I really did a deep dive into this from 2019 on and I have been working in that field full-time ever since, so that's my entire practice involves that, and what's important for people to understand is that it's not just the medicine session. So people can go to a ketamine clinic and just get ketamine, which can also be helpful, often be quite helpful for, especially for treatment, resistant depression. But when we start to get into more kind of anxiety, trauma, ptsd, chronic stress, other things that are either associated with the depression or underneath the depression, then I highly recommend working with a trained therapist at the same time. Depression, then I highly recommend working with a trained therapist at the same time. And so as part of that, we do preparation sessions, where we do several sessions in advance to really get to know you, help establish your treatment goals, help really understand what's underneath the issues that are bringing you to treatment. And then integration as well, where we meet after every medicine session or in an ongoing fashion and talk about what came up in the medicine session, help situate that within your treatment goals and really you know, understand how that can treat all of you instead of just addressing the symptoms. So it's a very powerful kind of you know, intervention that covers a lot of different aspects of people's lives.
Speaker 3:So I got into it because I just found it to be incredibly interesting and then, as I began to learn more about it and I frankly tried it myself, it's extraordinarily powerful. And then the training emerged just kind of recognizing that there's not a real clear path for clinical professionals and medical professionals, therapists of all sorts to really get their training needs Like how do we find out about this, how do we get into this, how do we learn how to do it effectively and utilize it as part of a clinical process to, again, you know, help people that are struggling and so, understanding that there was a need, like once I got, you know, really deeply into this and felt really competent and had learned it and was doing the work, then also just switched into providing training and also supervision for people that are interested in that. So ketamine came out of working in the emergency rooms. So ketamine what's different about ketamine versus, like psilocybin or MDMA or LSD or anything other? If people are tracking this that you might be aware of the fact that there's there's an increasing body of research showing that these medicines can be really helpful for longstanding and chronic mental health issues. But like it's really part of a therapeutic process, but with ketamine itself, it actually came out of the emergency room.
Speaker 3:So they started using it during the Vietnam era, war era, just because it's a short acting anesthetic that has no known side effects. With as particularly with cardiac or breathing, there are almost no side effects. It's extraordinarily, um, safe. And so then they also, as it moved into the emergency room and they began to use it, like my five-year-old got it when he was, when he broke his arm when he was five. Um, so they gave it to him. He was, you know, kind of of knocked out for like 20 minutes where they could set his arm. So they use it in that way.
Speaker 3:We've had emergency room doctors say you know, we use this like water in the ER, like it is very, very, very safe physically. And then they began to notice that emergency rooms have a lot of people who come in and out that have chronic, longstanding mental health issues and are often actively suicidal. And so they began to realize that these people who were often in and out of the emergency rooms regularly were actually reporting that their suicidality that's the clinical term that we use, their suicidal thoughts um were remitting and and associated with that was that depression was also remitting, but they found out that it was really only lasting a couple weeks and then it would come back. So out of that finding, which was pretty consistent across emergency rooms across the country, began to realize that if we also layer in psychotherapy or do several sessions in close proximity to each other, that we can extend that benefit Much more effective for people with longstanding issues than just traditional psychotherapy or medication alone.
Speaker 3:So it's kind of taking the best that medication has to offer, the pharmacological benefits, layering it in with psychotherapy, but then it works differently, like being under the influence of the medicine, allows people to process things that are otherwise really difficult to get at. It allows them to see themselves differently. It allows them to experience themselves differently and to kind of move out into the world without experiencing the negative effect of having these symptoms, and really experience the world in a different way. So it's a very different process that has a lot of similarities to traditional psychotherapy, with the added benefit of what you know the medicine brings, and then it also is a powerful pharmacological effect. So, particularly for depression somewhat less so for anxiety again, because it's more complex and it's embedded into the nervous system. But working with it in that way, I'm just seeing really different results for people that have been struggling for a long time.
Speaker 2:So very cool and fascinating. I am just intrigued. So, doc, what you do for fun when you're not treating people, helping people.
Speaker 3:Well, I am kind of all about non-ordinary states in general, so I like, I like anything that kind of takes me out of the ordinary realm. So I really like swimming holes, I like water slides, I like whitewater paddling, I like rivers of all sorts, I like going on lakes, I enjoy dancing and kind of, you know, getting deeply into dancing. I have two kids that are 12 and 14 and I enjoy getting them out on rivers and out in the woods and we also ski and do a lot of adventure-based activities and you know this region, you know these mountains and these rivers are just beautiful for that. So I do a lot of that, yeah, and I honestly I'm really into this work, so I do a lot of study with this work and it kind of expands into, you know, different types of consciousness and meditation and mindfulness, and so there's a lot of different things that inform this, so that I find just inherently interesting.
Speaker 2:Can you describe a hardship or a life challenge, either professionally or personally, that you've overcome and how it made you stronger on the other side?
Speaker 3:Sure, I mean I, you know, have my own trauma history. So you know different types of relational struggles and different challenging experiences that I've encountered in my life and really you know there's a whole lot of kind of you know you hear that healer, hear thyself, and there's a whole lot of that to me. So, you know, kind of continually working on exploring different ways that help me what is really ultimately adjust my nervous system, because so many of the things that people struggle with are about the ways that our brains and our nervous system respond to, you know, terrifying, overwhelming or life-threatening events. And it's important to recognize that it's not just, you know, something that actually could have killed you, but that our nervous systems perceive kind of a lack of safety in relationship and a lack of belonging, and you know things associated with that as a life-threatening event, like as something that is trying to kill us or eat us. So when you experience some of that as you're growing up and as you go through life, your nervous system kind of is on hyper alert for threat.
Speaker 3:And so being, you know, in a process of studying psychotherapy and different forms of psychotherapy throughout my own life, as I've been on my own healing journey, which you know ultimately has included psychedelics and ketamine work as well, is just something.
Speaker 3:It's a super interesting process. And then really, things like kayaking and things like that, like challenging your own beliefs and, you know, self-limiting beliefs, and you know how can that take us to the next level and really has just propelled me to spend my entire life kind of questing for different ways of healing and different ways of working and and also just different ways of finding joy. You know, how can we deepen into joy and well-being, which is another thing that this work with ketamine really does for people is to help us just go deeper into, you know, being more present in our lives and appreciating that and being able to, you know, kind of expand what's good and to notice it and appreciate it. So you know, and then just really, you know, carving out a niche in a new and developing field like this is, you know, there's there.
Speaker 3:There has been a lot of stigma attached to this kind of work, really even psychotherapy, but you know, and kind of just you know, overcoming that and helping to really just make those things normal and help people recognize that suffering is, you know is pretty pervasive and that there are tools available to help with that and there's lots of different ways to go about that. And so you know, really, you know career wise, like overcoming those stigmas and continuing to carve out places in the in the professional arena that are kind of atypical or cutting edge.
Speaker 2:So yeah, you've sold me at it too, actually.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So if, if you could think of one thing, Sandy, if you don't mind me calling you, dr Sandy yeah.
Speaker 3:Yes, please.
Speaker 2:If you could think of one thing that you would like our listeners to remember about you and about your psychological services and the Living Medicine Institute, what would that be?
Speaker 3:I mean related to some of what I've said, like suffering is pervasive and there are ways out of suffering. So you know we're all going to suffer some. But if you're kind of stuck in a cycle where you know that there can be more, where you know that you're living with kind of a persistent, like grinding kind of anxiety or that depression is just making it really difficult to get off the couch and you feel like you've tried everything and there's just no way through that, that there are additional ways, this kind of emerging field of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy is something that's worth tracking and ketamine work and I know it is. I'll just name it. It's out of pocket, insurance does not cover it, so that's a barrier to many people and I do understand that. Like I said, there's kind of the lower cost way through intranasal that I offer, as well as the IV clinics, which are more expensive and again, pros and cons to each. But there are ways to feel better and I just want to really tell people keep working at it and there are ways to feel better. And if you can really take on I call it, take on the personal project of continuing to try to work through that and recognize that taking care of your body, taking care of your mind, taking care of your heart, but also accessing tools and skills that are available to you with a skilled therapist. And you know pharmacological effects, like ketamine. A lot of people have really negative side effects from a lot of the meds that people take and and they, you know they often run their course. So this can provide people with a great deal of relief, and so I want to just kind of say that and hold that out and say you know that's available to you, whether that's you know, whether you come to Asheville to work with me or whether you find somebody in your own community to work with. That you know there is. There are ways and many people do find relief with this that have never been helped before.
Speaker 3:And for professionals who are kind of burned out and, you know, tired of doing things the same old way, this is also, you know, a pathway for you. It is open to, you know, all medical professionals who are able to do prescribing work and it is open to all therapists. There is no actual certification requirement, which is weird, like it's kind of the wild west, but it's not Like we're getting better and better at professionalism and ethics and standards and that's what we stand for in our training program is doing it well and you know. So get the training, come and see what it's all about. Come check it out.
Speaker 3:We have a retreat coming up in September for clinical and medical professionals outside of Asheville. That's a great way to start and it's a really interesting place to situate your career. That again can kind of be an adjunct to what you're already doing and help bring some excitement and bring some new ways of doing things. So it's it's really exciting, it's super interesting. There's nothing overly weird about it. Like it's not too terrifying, it's not too strange I mean it is.
Speaker 3:I guess you know the space. If you're kind of, you come in and you know what just said. Also, if you don't mind, I would just tell people what it is a little bit.
Speaker 3:You know you come in and you get, you know you're under the influence for about 45 minutes. During that time we get you situated. Like I said, we do several different preparation sessions beforehand that look a lot like traditional therapy. We come in and you know, have you get situated and then we administer the medicine in that session. Those sessions are about two hours long and you're under the influence for about an hour of that time, getting situated and then coming out of it. And the whole time that you're cared for and you're supportive and you know we're actually talking and processing throughout, kind of noticing what comes up. So you know, and and we're you know the team that I work with we know what we're doing, so we're not going to send you kind of off into orbit in a way that's super terrifying. And we're, we're with you the whole time and you know, and then, as you come out of it, there's there's very little hangover effect. You might notice kind of something for a couple hours, but, um, and then you kind of, you know, go about your business and then we, you know, keep connecting in that way.
Speaker 3:So it's, it's not like, you know, some people have done other types of psychedelics or they might have misconceptions about it, but it's. It's not, like you know, some people have done other types of psychedelics or they might have misconceptions about it, but it's not overly crazy. It fits very well into a person's life. It's not super terrifying and it is definitely not only for people who've already tried psychedelics, like the vast majority of my clients, as well as the professionals who come and train with us, have really either done very little or did it a long time ago, or have never done it at all, and so it's not that it's only for people who are interested in that. In fact, I might say the opposite that sometimes the people who find the most benefit from it are people who never really explored themselves or those sort of non-ordinary realms in those ways, and so so I just, you know, and I want to just kind of like burst that bubble about, like this is weird and this is scary, and you know what is this and what are these people doing. And you know, recognize that, you know I'm a licensed professional, I've been doing this work, for I've been doing this work since 2019. But I've been, you know, working in with in mental health since the mid to mid 90s and you know, so really incorporate the work with the medicine in with all the other psychotherapy tools that I've been using throughout my career. So it's it's an exciting time and it's a really interesting and different type of approach. So I just want to invite people to come try it out. Well, I want to also, if I might.
Speaker 3:I mean, I one of the things when I do teaching about this, as I tell people, is like recreational use of, you know, psychedelic medicine, or even specifically, ketamine, um, and medically supervised, clinically informed use are like meat and fruit, like you can eat them both, but they're not the same, like you know. They're different in every level. And so, you know, imagine a world where you come in and you have a trained therapist who you know really takes the time to get to know you, understand your history, understand the things that might be driving some of the symptoms, help you set up treatment goals, guide you through the medicine journey, and then we meet within 24 to 48 hours to kind of go over the session and and really situate it into your life so that it has meaning. And that's a really different experience than you know some other psychedelic use in some other context that you know somebody may have experienced. So it's. It's just that you know, medically supervised and clinically driven part is central to the whole process.
Speaker 2:Very good. Like I said, I'm intrigued. I'm very intrigued.
Speaker 3:Great yeah.
Speaker 2:So if any of our listeners are like me and or they're a medical professional that's interested in learning more about the training, where can they find out more?
Speaker 3:Great. So you can find me and my private practice online at sandranewiscom. Or you can find me on Psychology Today also, sandra Newis and Ketamine-Assisted Psychotherapy. Type in Asheville, and type in my name, sandra Newis, n-e-w-e-s in Psychology Today, or just type that into the browser and you'll come up with that that way, and then the training program is livingmedicineinstitutecom. So again, it's livingmedicineinstitutecom and we do have a training retreat for clinical and medical professionals coming up September night through the 11th, and then we start our online clinical intensive, which is 16 weeks online meets every other week and you also do your own medicine work in between, and that starts in October and that's more of a deep dive into the how to's of how to do it. So if you're interested, the retreat is a good entry point. If you want to learn more about the how to's, you can do the retreat and that, or just the clinical or just the level one clinical intensive. So, and I do have room in my practice right now, so I'd be happy to talk with people Awesome.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, doc, I can't tell you how much. I hope you don't mind me calling you doc.
Speaker 3:Nope.
Speaker 2:I can't say how much I appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to talk with me and with our listeners and wish you and your practice and your family, your boys all the best moving forward.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Skip. I really appreciate this opportunity and appreciate the chance to be here with you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Maybe we can have you back sometime.
Speaker 3:That sounds great.
Speaker 2:All right, thanks so much.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the good neighbor podcast. To nominate your favorite local businesses to be featured on the show, go to gnptry-citiescom. That's gnptry-citiescom, or call 423-719-5873. Thank you.