Beyond Attachment: Using Theories with Infants and Toddlers

In this episode of the Learn Play Thrive podcast, host Simone Brand invites listeners to journey into the intentional heart of infant and toddler pedagogy alongside two leading academics and sector voices - Andi Salamon from the University of Canberra and Tina Stratigos from the University of Sydney.

This deep-dive discussion aims to move foundational theorists like Bowlby, Parten, and Piaget off the dusty bookshelf and directly into everyday early childhood practice. As co-authors of the recently published resource 'Intentional Practice with Infants and Toddlers: Pedagogies for Learning, Development and Wellbeing', Andi and Tina share their immense expertise on translating theory into responsive, respectful, and participatory communicative practices that transform how we see, hear, and support the youngest children in our care.

Throughout the conversation, they unpack practical ways early childhood educators can intentionally design environments and everyday interactions using these theoretical frameworks. Listeners will discover how to look past the surface of Bowlby's 'secure attachment' to deepen a child's sense of belonging; how to value Mildred Parten’s 'solitary' and 'onlooker' play stages as periods of rich discovery; and how Jean Piaget's stages of cognitive development can shape a pedagogy that recognises infants as active constructors of their own worlds. 

Concluding with inspiring takeaway messages, Andi and Tina challenge educators to reflect on how contemporary, interdisciplinary theories frame their thinking, ultimately reshaping daily practice to profoundly elevate the lived experiences of infants and toddlers.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Learn Play Thrive the podcast, the ultimate early learning podcast for educators and leaders in the sector. Let's learn, play, and thrive together.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

The Learn Play Thrive podcast was recorded on the lands with the Dark and Jung people. We pay our respects to the traditional custodians, past, present, and emerging. Hands up, hands down, clear on dark and jungle land.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Warm welcome to you as we tune in to today's episode of Learn Play Thrive the Podcast, where we journey into the heart of early childhood education and care. I'm your host, Simone Brenn, and today's episode explores the intentional heart of infant and toddler pedagogy. We know the names Bulby, Parton, Piage, but how do we move these giants of theory off the dusty bookshelf and into our everyday practice? Joining us to navigate this deep dive are two incredible academics and leading voices in the sector, Andy Salomon and Tina Stradigos. Today we're moving beyond attachment to discover how theory can transform the way we see, hear, and support the infants and toddlers in our care. Welcome Andy and Tina to Learn Faith Ribe the podcast. Balbi's theory of attachment serves as the professional framework for understanding why consistent caregiving is important for young children. Balby's central theme is that children must feel felt to feel safe. They require a reliable adult to act as a secure base from which to explore a safe haven to return to when distressed. For ECE professionals, this means recognizing that you're an important attachment figure who helps regulate a child's nervous system. When a child experiences sensitive responsiveness from their educator, they develop a positive internal working model, leading to higher social competence and emotional resilience. Conversely, if a child's attachment needs are unmet, their brain remains at a state of high cortisol and survival mode, making it biologically difficult for them to engage in play or cognitive learning. So let's begin with John Balby's attachment theory. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Great question. And I think you're right that, you know, Bolby's attachment theory is one of the big ones, and it's definitely one of the ones that comes to the fore when we think about infants and toddlers as well. And I think it's because it highlights the importance of and really prioritizes relationships and connection between educators and children and why these are just so important. It's so important for really young children to feel safe. And without that relationship with someone where you feel safe, somebody that you can rely on, then learning and development and compromise are just not going to happen. So, you know, attachment theory really highlights that emotional climate is really important from a young age and that it has, you know, really potential ongoing long-term impacts for children. It's really powerful and it's really important. And I think that the translation of attachment theory into the circle of security framework, which many people will have heard about, I think, you know, that can be really helpful for a lot of educators. I think, you know, it's that visual kind of map that can be really useful to, you know, to think about identifying and then responding to children's different emotional needs in the moment. So how to understand what is the child seeking? Are they seeking the safe haven now or are they seeking the secure base? You know, are they needing to come back to me as that safe haven to, you know, support them? Maybe, you know, something scared them or upset them, or it's not going right, they don't know how to handle it, or is it that they're in that secure base moment where, you know, they want to be out there exploring, but they actually still want to know that we're there watching, that we're still a part of that. So we're still providing that secure base for them.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

So the circle of security, uh, there's been a lot of research uh surrounding this area where the case studies have been developed on young children and their ability to walk into a room or have their significant other be in a room playing with them. And the significant other will leave the room and it's looking at their adjustments to their play and when they're re-entering the room and looking at their adjustments to play and their connection to that significant other person when they arrive back. And that's what's forming what the relationship phase looks like, and if the child is feeling secure in their immediate environment.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Yes, well, I think what you're referring there is to there is Mary Ainsworth's research. So she worked with Bobby and she developed what she called the strange situation test, which is just what you described. They basically brought children into a laboratory, so it was a space that they'd never been into. It had toys in there, but they came in usually with the mother, they do it with, and then they they watch the child and see how they react when a stranger comes into the room, and then the the mother would leave and the child would be alone with the stranger. Then how does the child respond when the mother returns? So, how that reunion goes with the child. And I think for me, this was you know something that worries me a little bit in terms of I feel like for education, it can lean towards potentially pathologizing children and their attachments. So she came up with things like, you know, or this child has a disordered attachment, which is quite negative. And I think it's important, you know, when Balby's work came out, it was post-World War II, right? And it was Britain. And so it was a time when women had been working out of the home to support the war effort, and men were returning from the war and women were expected to go back into the home. Now, you could argue that maybe that played a role in him sort of saying it's very important that mothers are at home with their children, otherwise, you know, they're going to be kind of, you know, there's going to be negative emotional implications for them. But it really had a strong focus on the mother as the primary caregiver. I think today we have a much more modern understanding that actually it's not just about one person. Children can form multiple attachment relationships, and relationships with different people will be different. So it's not that it's something the attachment relationship doesn't exist within the child. It's a relationship with between the child and another person. So that you may have the child may have quite different relationships with different people just because of their kind of history of that relationship and the interactions that they have had over time. So if you think about if you were to repeat Mary Ainsworth's strange situation test now with children who regularly attend early childhood settings and are often in contact with a range of adults over the week and have become quite comfortable with that, they might actually respond in quite a different way than the original children who took part in those tests who were coming from a very kind of nuclear family, what was considered to be the norm and the ideal at that time.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

We might reconduct that research.

unknown 6:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Well, with that as well, is what Tina's described is placing it in the research in the context of the time as well as the culture. And so it's very uh a lot of um, well, actually, I think all of these theorists that we kind of draw on, these main theorists, come from westernized um often developmental psychology kind of or different contexts. Um, and so the example that Tina gave about multiple attachments, you know, it's actually very different in other cultures. It's not about dyadic attachments and one-on-one. And so, for example, in First Nations and Indigenous cultures, it's actually that children are raised by other kin. There are different kinship systems. And so picking up on the point of pathologizing, one of the kind of where you ask how do we move beyond simply understanding secure attachment, right? And using it more critically, we have to see these children from their cultural context. And so we we can't pathologize a child and deem them insecurely attached if they're used to multiple people. So, you know, it's actually uh that's a part of that critical thinking is where did this theory come from? Who does it serve, and how do we use it with the children we see every day and the families we see every day?

SPEAKER_01 8:04

So then that looks into the intentionally designed responsive everyday interactions that support the sense of the well-being and belonging.

SPEAKER_03 8:12

Well, and knowing the children and the families, and that comes back to those relationships and starting there, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Mildred Parton's theory of social play is essentially the roadmap for how children transition from solitary explorers to collaborative teammates. For educators, her six stages ranging from unoccupied and onlooker behavior to parallel, associative, and finally cooperative play provides a vital lens for observing social development. Parton's brilliance was recognized that the play is a sophisticated ladder of social maturiation. When you see a toddler playing next to a peer but not with them, Parton reminds us that this parallel play isn't a lack of social skill, but a necessary development bridge towards the complex negotiation and shared goal setting of cooperative play. By identifying where a child sits on this spectrum, you can tailor your environment to support their current stage while gently scaffolding the skills they need to reach the next level of social connection. In the context of infant and toddler pedagogy, how can early childhood educators intentionally use Mildred Parton's theory on the stages of play to create environments that support solitary and onlooker play as periods of rich discovery and vital social observations?

SPEAKER_03 9:27

Well, I guess one way that Parton's theory has been useful in environments in early childhood and even beyond, um, her work is used in therapeutic contexts as well, like play therapy. And so I guess one way that it can be used positively is for as an organizing framework, and so kind of thinking about it in terms of observing play and focusing on social aspects, that's been a really uh important benefit. One of the tricky parts with Parton's theory is, you know, thinking about solitary and onlooker play. You know, it could be said that for children under the age of two, you know, that there is more, there are kind of more ways of seeing where they fit in in those stages. And and even having any kind of rigid age or stage approach can be limiting. So yeah, I mean, thinking about solitary and onlooker play as one aspect, but really that you know, young children and babies especially um play in different ways. And so they're highly social as it is, and so to kind of imagine uh, in a way, seeing them in that solitary and onlooker play kind of space only.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

When we look at a solitary play and onlooker play, what would you describe as solitary play when you see a child in solitary play? What what are the examples of what that would look like for a young toddler?

SPEAKER_03 11:07

I'm all I'm actually really interested in this because you know what is play and is everything play? So if I think about solitary play, what does it look like? I guess a child engaging with something and testing it and moving it, perhaps. But is that play, or is that just figuring out what this is and then I'll put it in my mouth, you know, like um it's a discovering with the senses, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 11:34

It's um trial and error. Maybe they're uh they're looking at their hands, they're grasping for something, or um they're looking at a way that something, an object moves, or have the way it reacts with themselves.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

But is that play?

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Well, I think it I mean, we're gonna come to Piaget late later, right? Yes, I feel like you know, this is sensory motor play, really. But I think my perspective on Mildred Parton's work is that it's interesting, maybe it's it's interesting to be able to observe and say, oh, that's this kind of play or that kind of play. But I think that sometimes the problem with those ages and stages approaches is that it can feel a bit hierarchical, right? So it's like, well, solitary play and onlooker play are not very advanced, so they're not as valuable. Whereas we know that they're hugely valuable, right? That as you said, it's it might just be interacting with an object and working out what is this thing? How does it work? What can I do with it? And onlooker plays also really valuable, and you see older children do onlooker play as well, because it's basically learning from what watching other children's play or even adults play, right? The more knowledgeable lover, all of that stuff. So I I think that it's it's interesting and potentially helpful, but we don't want to get stuck in some kind of really rigid hierarchical ages and stages kind of uh which in itself says, well, well, I'm sorry, that child can only do parallel play. That that's the best thing to do.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

And then again, when we look at where the the research and the theory came from, that was a hundred years ago now. So that was in 1926. The sample size for Parton's work was 42 children, which is not very big. And of those 42, they didn't look at children under the age of two. So, you know, and what Tina was saying, there's lots of different now that we know better and we know that there are different kinds of play, you know, there's scope to kind of be a bit more sophisticated, especially with babies, for example, we can play with them and be playful and have humour and play with more social elements rather than a thing. You know, in many ways it depends on what your definition of play is to then place children. Because if play is playing with a truck or a train or a doll, then babies can't do that. A six-month-old can't do that, but a six-month-old can play in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Jean Viaget's theory of cognitive development serves us as a reminder that children construct their own understanding of the world through hands-on experiences. Viaget's work suggests that children move through specific stages, most notably the sensory motor and pre-operational stages in the early years, where they learn by physically interacting with their environment and gradually developing symbolic thought. For educators, this means the environment is the best teacher. By providing open-end materials, you allow children to engage in assimilation and accommodation, fitting new information into their existing mental schemas or stretching those schemas to fit new discoveries. And how can Jean Piaget's stages of cognitive development intentionally shape an educator's pedagogy for infants and toddlers, enabling our thinking to better meet a young child's needs and recognize their unique capabilities as they actively construct their understanding of their world?

SPEAKER_02 15:02

It's interesting because I feel like we're thinking very critically about theories today, which is important work. And I feel like Piaget can be a bit divisive. Like a lot of people are like, oh, let's just get rid of these old developmental theories. They're two ages and stages. And there's a part of me that thinks, yeah, like there's there's some negatives to that. But I actually also think that there's a lot to take from Piaget, especially with this age group. And I think you sort of hit the nail on the head really with your question about constructing their understanding. You know, Piage was a constructivist, and I think that that is a powerful idea with infants and toddlers. You know, I always say to my students, I cannot bring 20, 18-month-olds into this room and sit them down at tables and chairs and explain to them how the world works, right? Because that is not how they learn. We know that, we understand that they have to have that hands-on experience with the world, with objects, and that they have to work it out for themselves. They construct their own understanding. Benjamin Franklin, involve me in all earn. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

Involve me in all learn.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

Yeah. And that is linked into the sensory motor stage that what that we mentioned before. So, you know, that's kind of the first couple of years of life, according to Pierre Jane. Look, I know that people, you know, more recently are doing some amazing research that's showing that he wasn't always correct and he didn't always get the time frames correct. Um, but I still think that there are some, you know, some interesting things there. And especially in what we talked about before, you know, like that through that interaction with objects, I'm working out, you know, what is this thing? When I'm brand new to the world and everything is new to me, and I have to work out what are all the things in the world, right? And how do they work and what can I do with them.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

To add to that, that's also connected with the social element. So, you know, there's um there's kind of socio-cognitive thinking where it's built in conjunction with other as well.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Yeah, and I think that is a criticism of Piaget, and that if you were a real hard-line Piagetian, you you would be all about creating the environment and providing the materials and not so much about you know the interactions or become a co-player and using some intentional teaching strategies, or you know, you'd you'd you'd have to go more towards Vygotsky to bring in that more social dimension. Something that I like about Piaget's, I mean, this is kind of an offshoot from Piaget's work, I guess, that I think a lot of people working with toddlers find useful is that idea of schema play, toddler schemas. You know, that there are particular patterns of play that children will just come back to and come back to and come back to, and that can give us an insight into what's going on for them cognitively, that they're just fascinated by this concept and they're experimenting with it in their play over and over. So you, you know, the transporting schema, I think for me is one of the classic ones. You know, I'm gonna fill this little trolley with all of these things and then I'm gonna move it across the room, I'm gonna take them out, and then I'm gonna put them in, and then I'm gonna move them somewhere else. I'm transporting things around. And there are lots of other schemas, but you know, I think that that's really fascinating and it can be a really interesting insight, something that educators can observe and then, you know, use for their planning. Okay, we've got these children who are really into this schema at the moment. How can we give them lots of different ways to explore that?

SPEAKER_01 18:25

My favorite one is um trajectories when they pick up the food and they drop it to see what happens. What's she gonna do? Yeah, uh I keep doing this.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

All like those kind of enclosing or enveloping ones, you know, like I'm gonna hide inside things all the time, or I'm gonna post things into this box and hide them inside the box, you know, these are definitely things that we recognize. People who who have spent time with this age group will recognize that. And I think that that idea of schema play gives us a way to see that and you know, acknowledge it and use it, use it to support the children's learning and development.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

So talking about earlier looking at the positives and negatives of the theories that we're talking about today, I I think when we when we look at the positives and the negatives in developmental theory, we we it's and I think you've brought up a really good point of the time frame, maybe the issue that we we don't love, but potentially what the theory is still stands. So I know from experience, and there's been a lot of research surrounding it as well, with children that um potentially may not be able to use their imagination to create on their own terms what an object might be or um create their own play on their own. They really need that uh significant other to drive their play. But then yet on the flip side, we have children that also really need that less structure and don't like to always engage in more structure intentionality of teaching versus child-led play. So it's one of those items that potentially you can use to help identify where the child's at and use a schema of play to practice to practice those elements in a way that's engaging for children, make sure that the provocation, so the environment is there, but then the social aspect is, I guess, supporting the child where they're at in their zone of proximal development, which is Vygotsky. Yeah, well, but it's theorists that we're talking about today. I'm putting too many people in there.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

That's fine because I mean Vygotsky was a social constructivist, right?

SPEAKER_03 20:37

So and I always at the heart, and the thing is a lot of these theorists have the other theorists as mentors.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Yeah. I was just gonna say that, Andy. I always think I wish Piage and Vygotsky met each other. They were around at a similar time, but Vygotsky was like in Russia, and I have I'm pretty sure his work was not even translated into English until after he died. He didn't have a long life, whereas Piaget did. But I kind of feel like that would have been really interesting to get them together and see see where that went. But something just thinking about the social dimension of something that I kind of feel like is a potential, you know, negative of Piaget's work for infants and toddlers is the idea of egocentrism. And, you know, he talked to Piaget talked about young children being egocentric. And I think that very often people misunderstand what he meant by that. And there's a view that, you know, toddlers are egocentric, they don't care about anyone other than themselves, essentially. They just want what they want and they're not interested in anybody else. And that's not really what he was trying to say. And he really only talked about egocentrism in that pre operational stage, which is two to six years. Um, and really he was talking about them finding it very challenging to see the world from other people's perspectives, and he meant that in terms of physical perspective, so to understand that what I see from my Physical perspective when I look at an object, for example, is different from what you see from your physical perspective when you look at that same object from the other side of the room. And he did these strange experiments. You can look them up online called the Three Mountains test that he used to come up with these ideas. And the other one was a communicative egocentrism that they don't necessarily so they can young children can assume that the person that they're talking to has the same knowledge that they do. So they may not be aware that I know something that you don't know. And so when I'm talking to you, there's kind of a misunderstanding. And that's really linked to a theory of mind, which comes about later. So, you know, I feel like he talked about egocentriccentrism, and people just go, oh, well, you know, under threes, they're just egocentric, and they kind of just get a little bit written off as kind of megalomaniacs who don't care about anybody. And that's not really what he was trying to get at. And anybody who's who's spent time with, you know, two-year-olds knows that they're super interested in other people.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

So even babies, that's a part of how they are learning is by observing.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

You can see that in the mirroring when you're doing facials to a baby and then they replay it with their facials. Well, we do it to a baby, they'll do a face and we'll just automatically do one too.

SPEAKER_03 23:18

Yes, yes. And but here's the thing, and then what starts to happen at about you know, between six and nine months for kind of normally, and I'm using my scare quotes, developing babies, is and different personalities as well, um, and temperaments of babies, is they start to intentionally pick up and use what they've observed. And so, in a way, that's actually playing. I call it in the book, playing with emotion, because what they start to do is they Basu Devi Reddy, who is a great researcher and thinker, um, she talks about it as clowning around, right? So that they kind of use what they know about attention and intentionally engage us in these playful ways by giving us back some of those social observations. But I just wanted to touch on what Tina was just describing. You know, I think one of the things that's so important is and really a focus here is in this podcast, is that how are theories used now, right? Given that they're hundreds of years old, and and how do we learn about them and who teaches us about them? And and so, you know, it's that notion of how are they put to work, and is it in the in the way that they originally kind of deeply unpacked? And another example is with secure attachment, for example, and one thing that certainly this is just um anecdotal, and although for 30 years now, there's this sense that secure attachment means being with one person, you know, and and that that they're so attached to me. And that's actually a marker of insecure attachment because secure attachment means that babies can explore and be with other people. So I think it's really important to remain mindful about how these theories are kind of used and maybe keep checking in.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Like babies go through so many stages of their development. You know, it's that stage where all the neural pathways, all the synapses are firing off. It's the most important time of their life where their brain is growing so fast and so critically. But when when we talk about that secure attachment, we then have to put into perspective that potentially object permanence then starts to play a role once they realize that something, they they look at an object non-existent when they can't see it visually, and then eventually understand and unveil that something does exist when they can't see it. And that's when we start to see those, I guess, anxieties when children get dropped off because they know that's uh their significant other is existing outside of care, but then potentially that's what looks like when an educator leaves their room that they've decided to bond with more significantly. So it is that uh idea of babies and children can have a range of I guess primary caregivers that they are secure to be in the same space with. But then there are implications of developmental stages where it is quite normal to go through stages, also not only stages of development, but maybe they haven't slept the night before, or maybe it's their personality, or maybe they're hungry or tired, or there's other elements that are in play. So it may not just be, or maybe they're coming down with something. It may not just be a circumstance. So when you're looking at it from an educator's perspective and an educator's lens, you need to think critically, okay, what what is happening for this child in this context and and what could be affecting different avenues?

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Object permanence is one of those ones that comes from Piage, right? And and that is something that more modern research is really challenging in terms of this time frame, that really babies are much more capable of that than we thought at much earlier ages, and that it was actually some of the tests that Piage devised were actually quite complex, and it was more the fact that this testing environment was actually quite difficult for them to show their capability, and so more modern techniques are actually not necessarily disproving it, but really changing some of the time frames, I think.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

It would be fabulous to reenact all of all of the research case studies that have been put in place those hundreds of years ago and put them in place today's environment and see and see what it looks like, maybe in a larger scale than 49 children. I think you said maybe 2,000, 42. Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

You know, good research is meant to be generalizable. That's a really small well. I mean, good it depends what you're doing with it.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

Um that's true, but we also have to remember that these are theories, right? Yes, they're not a truth that you must subscribe to, you know, these are theories that should help you. It should be a tool. You have a toolbox as an educator with different tools in it, and those tools might be different teaching strategies, for example, or the different songs that you use with children, but it's also the different theories that you might be able to bring to your work that are going to change the way you view children, that are going to change the way you practice, and to be able to have that little critical thing in the back of your mind that says, Well, okay, is this one working? How is this changing what I'm doing? You know, who is this helping? Who is it not helping? What might be different if I bring out a different lens to view what's happening here?

SPEAKER_03 28:36

And just on that, you do that with your colleagues as well, and with the families as well. So a part of critical reflection is getting multiple perspectives. So it's not just solo work necessarily.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

We briefly mentioned it earlier, Andy. You briefly mentioned the your book, Intentional Practice with Infants and Toddlers: Pedagogies for Learning, Development and Wellbeing. I just wanted to unpack where that came from, where it started, and um and what brought you you together to create such a book.

SPEAKER_03 29:09

I guess it started with me being very lucky to have been invited to potentially write a book with Professor Sheila Degatari about infants and toddlers. Sheila is a renowned infant toddler researcher and professor at Macquarie Uni, who is one of my mentors and teachers as my master's supervisor. She also was one of my assessors for my PhD. So I've had an ongoing professional relationship with Sheila. And when she said, I think we need a new infant and toddler textbook, again, it's that notion of being contemporarising or kind of bringing what we know up to date, and also for an Australian context. So she said, should we do that? And I said, Yep, I'd love to. Can Tina come too, please?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

And because Tina I was very lucky to be invited into the team, and I think that that thing of saying, Well, actually, we we all live in our different institutions teach into these infant and toddler kind of developmental pedagogy practice type units. And we were all struggling to find a text that was Australian. And we knew that the revision to the EYLF was coming out, and it was kind of a perfect time. So we've really incorporated that throughout the book and tried very hard to include examples of practice. So we each had a particular centre that we worked with, and we went out and we kind of took videos and used that to write up vignettes. And uh in parts of the book, we've sort of interviewed the teachers or educators in the services to try and keep it uh, you know, a balance between the kind of theoretical and research and the actual practice.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

Well, and with that, we've got that balance in the book of you know, when I think of literature, it's the research theory and practice literature. So a really important part of the book that was intentional was making really clear links with the guiding early childhood practice documents that we use. So we've got links to the code of ethics and the national quality standards and the earliest learning framework. So, you know, it was really important that we we bring it up to date, but as Tina said, make it practical as well and really accessible and and usable.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

I really enjoy that aspect of having the spotlight of uh theories and knowledge, but then the spotlight on practice. You've provided an example, you've tested out uh the theory you've brought forward, what it looks like. So educators can see a lot of a lot of the examples that you provided is something that could happen on a day-to-day basis, and you've linked that directly to what that theory means. So for an educator potentially starting out, or even you know, myself who's been in the sector for 16 odd years, you can really see that link of okay, I understand that this is what they're talking about when this happens, which is which is very practical for educators learning uh about theory and wanting to understand more about what it looks like and and ways to to include it in their practices. So at the end of our podcast, we have three takeaway messages, one theory-based, one practical, and one inspiring. What would be your theory-based, even though we're talking about theory, what would be your theory-based takeaway for us today?

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Okay, so I'm going to talk about Bronfenbrenner. In one of the chapters of the book, I kind of took a bit of a deep dive into Bronfenbrenner and used his theory as the bioecological model theory as the kind of structure for the chapter. And people may know this one. It's really looking at what are the different layers of contextual influence that play a role in children's development. And the outer ring of his theory is the chronosystem, which is all about time. And so when I actually went and looked more into the chronosystem, I found that he actually breaks this down into three dimensions: micro time, mesotime, and macro time. And I found this really interesting and actually potentially really useful for educators because I feel like it has practical implications. So I guess I'm going to talk about my theory and practical implications altogether in one. I hope that's okay. So just let me like kind of give you the breakdown. Micro time is all about what the child is experiencing here and now in the moment. So it's all about the importance of allowing uninterrupted time, giving children time to engage deeply in their play and their interactions with people and objects. And so it's just really that lovely idea of being from the EYLF, slowing down, not rushing through the day. And then he talks about mesotime, which is about the repetition of experiences over days and weeks and years. So allowing children opportunities to return to things over time. And so for Bronfenbrenner, this idea of micro time and mesotime actually really work together powerfully to support learning and development. So it's both deep engagement in the moment and progressively complex repetition of experiences over time that he felt were really important. And then the third dimension is macro time, and this is about that broader influence of change over time. So the individual child is uh changes dramatically in the first two to three years of life. Their development is exponential. And so we have to be aware that the way that they interact with their environment with people is changing all the time. So we need to become attuned to that and adjust to that and adjust our curriculum accordingly. So I just feel like these are really powerful ideas for practice, especially with infants and toddlers. You know, whether in the moment they feel rushed or whether they feel calm, uh, you know, are they hurried and stressed or are things calm and relaxed, whether they feel that there's that sense of routine and repetition and rhythm and familiarity across time so that they're comfortable, they feel safe. It supports them to come back to things over time and you know, re-engage with them more deeply. And whether the curriculum offers opportunities for challenge and novelty to support that really rapid learning and development in the first three years. And I feel like these all need to be balanced. Um, but I really liked the way Bronf and Brenner broke down those dimensions of time. And I feel like, you know, reflecting with those, as Andy was saying, with the other educators in the room and with families and what that looks like in your service and where you might go. Actually, I'm not sure that this is working well. We could do that aspect differently. I feel like it's a really powerful tool to support thinking about time and how it impacts children's experiences.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

How do you feel about the notion of having the minimum amount of uninterrupted free play time for children being around two hours? What does that look like for you? Is there is there a time frame that you would sort of through your research?

SPEAKER_03 35:55

I think that comes back to the that free play is one kind of play as well. And, you know, in many ways, with it with there are different kinds of play. And so, you know, for babies, for example, you can't imagine leaving a baby on their own for two hours. You know, Tina talked about in the first three years, but actually in the first year, it's it's a really unique developmental period, right? So, I mean, from my perspective, I don't know that you could put a time limit on it. And then the other thing to say about free play is that, you know, in theory, um, the play is never free because we've intentionally created environments that have intentional resources in them. So that's not free play, it's actually guided by educators and teachers, but it's from a more removed perspective. So the the intentionality comes in the environment as the third teacher, and I think that's especially important with babies because you know, part of the work that makes it sophisticated is having observed them closely and figuring out what their interests and needs are, then we resource the environment in that way. So it's it's actually not free, it's set up by us, but it feels free for the babies, perhaps, or the children. And that's a bit of a tick when you know that they've got that choice within the structure we create.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

It's kind of that nurture versus nature, the nature part of part of the aspect. I guess uninterrupted play is probably maybe the time frame.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Yeah, and look, I don't think that there can ever be a magic rule that works for every for every setting. And I think that's why tools like that, micro time, mesotyme, macro time, can be helpful to really break it down and start thinking, well, actually, what is happening and what seems, you know, what do we want to change something? Are we happy with how things are going? And what happens now is not necessarily going to work in four months' time, right? So to have the tools to be able to think about it and decide what's going to work work, you know, for for educators, what's going to work for children and how that might work.

SPEAKER_03 38:09

Because Andy might not need uninterrupted play as much as Tina might enjoy uninterrupted play.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Yes. Yeah, it kind of hits towards the nervous system as to what theory.

SPEAKER_03 38:22

Well, no one, I was about to talk about my theory.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Okay, well, let's let's transition into um your theory takeaway.

SPEAKER_03 38:30

Well, for me, it was about polyvagal theory. So so Tina talked about, and it was actually a really good kind of complementary um description from what Tina described about having uninterrupted when you're feeling hurried, then the nervous system is feeling pressured, right? And so there's, you know, this notion of physical safety and physiological safety is connected with this, what's relatively contemporary? Polyvagal theory. That's a theory written by a researcher Stephen Porges, and he takes the notion of security and safety into a physiological realm. So when we feel safe in our bodies, then we we move into it in our there are different parts of the nervous system. It's the parasympathetic and the other one, sympathetic.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Um parasympathetic and the good one.

unknown 39:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

And what what it means is that that when we are in a balanced, when we're when we're acting out of, you know, a healthy physiological internal environment, then we're more open to social experiences. And then again, that's when the learning happens. And you know, that's then connected to the sensory profile of the room, because oftentimes in infant toddler rooms, you know, when babies are not happy, usually they tell us through crying, for example. And then that kind of impacts on the educators' nervous system and and how they react. So yeah, I guess that's kind of another way of connecting with other theories from other disciplines. So for this one, it's it's um more about physical health and and kind of physiological research, but it it gives us another kind of take on secure attachment, right? Um, or feeling safe and secure.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

So, Andy, can I ask a question?

unknown 40:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Because I learnt a lot from the chapter that you wrote and you talked about interoception as a sensory sense, which is our feelings from inside our body, right? Yes. Of oh gosh, I need to go to the toilet, or oh, I feel really stressed, my heart is racing, right? So is that linked in with pot? So when you talked about feeling safe within your body, is that what you mean, like the bodily sensations of feeling unsafe?

SPEAKER_03 40:49

Yes, and that one of the intentional things we can do is help children in the same way as they learn what a pen is, and you we give them words, we can help them learn what those internal feelings are by labeling and and supporting that kind of again. It's connected to the cognitive aspect of development because once you can label things when they're new and you don't understand them, you might feel a bit scared and nervous. But once you can make sense of it or you expect it, um, you feel less overwhelmed, discombobulated. It's about homeostasis, really. It's about internal balance. And so if we experience something that we're unsure of, like I I've been talking, I've been playing with a baby, for example, and then they'll just stop and they kind of look off into the distance. And I'm I thought, are they doing a wee right now? You know, this what's happening inside of their bodies, or I've seen babies who might need to go, you know, have funny bottoms or whatever, and they're uncomfortable and they don't understand what's happening inside their body. And so, as much as we help them learn about the external world, yeah um, you know, we can start to help them label it as a physical, oh, you know, I need to go to the toilet, or oh, I'm feeling happy or excited or scared. It's the same with feelings.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

It's definitely an interesting theory to unpack and to learn more about, uh, especially when we're working with the very young toddlers that are, as you said, there are ways to teach the babies and toddlers about what that feeling is.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

Well, tangling. And it's starting with knowing who they are. And so what's interesting is hearing this conversation play out. You know, we've got these similar threads of relationships, knowing children, and also our job as scaffolding, whatever the learning may be, we are helping kind of bridge that uncertain space for children. And it's co-regulating, as you say. It's about being the knowledgeable other, that intentional and sophisticated way both supports and challenges a little.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

And that's where the secure attachment comes into place because children then know that that person is going to meet my needs, whatever those needs are. Yeah, maybe that person will help me if I'm feeling uncomfortable, that person will help me if I'm I'm tired or or I'm I'm looking for something, then now I trust. It's like building trust and feeling secure because I'm putting out signals and you're you're acknowledging them and responding to them. Is that true?

SPEAKER_03 43:33

And in doing it, it helps the child learn and trust themselves as well. I think that's a really important thing, is that we can help them understand for themselves so that when we're not there, they can manage.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

It's when uh external voices and what we say to children become their internal thoughts, and then eventually that's how they perceive themselves and how they react. So that goes on to that almost onlooker play when they're very young. How do I how do I fit within this system? And then we've kind of touched on practical already. But would you like to add any more to practical?

SPEAKER_03 44:09

I think in relation to polyvagal theory, it's just thinking about well, what is the first of all a really important thing that we haven't said is that adults as co-regulators, you know, the first thing to do is to regulate ourselves. So as a practical kind of tip, it's about checking in with your own nervous system and making sure that we're okay to start. And then also extending that, I guess, to the environment and recognising how does it feel in this place. And then that kind of in theory helps shape what your space is like.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

I think that there is a really nice connection, Andy, between Pollyvagel and that idea of time. Time is a key dimension of the environment and how this is so important, not just for children, but for educators as well. Like you said, we also need to be regulated. So have we sort of got ourselves into this trap where we feel like, you know, especially with really young ones, that there's a lot of routines, are we just kind of feel like we've got to rush through this thing, you know?

SPEAKER_03 45:12

Or is there a slow pedagogy? There are places where they take the clock off the wall.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

Yeah, yeah. And look, it's every service needs to work out what works for them, what works for the educators, what works for the children, family, all the rest of it. But I think to have the tools to think about these things is is really important.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

And working with time, it's almost what are the non-negotiables, like for instance, nappy change, meal times or sleep times or routines that the child is following for their predictable routine. And what is negotiable? What what is something that doesn't need to be structured in in the sense of how long we we provide an experience for? And sometimes I think we think things are non-negotiable, but maybe they're not.

SPEAKER_02 45:57

So yeah, what is non-negotiable in your I yes, you have to feed the children, they have to sleep. Those things are true. But you know, sometimes I think we get caught up in things have always been this way, right? And so we can't imagine that they could be different. And we think that those things are non-negotiable. And I'm not suggesting you go and change everything all at once because that's going to be a problem, you know. That's about the macro time. We want there to be some consistency and routine.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

For instance, when we talk about mealtimes, and and and I know this is when we're talking about babies and toddlers, it's better best to meet their routine needs and and the routine of the families and where they're at. But when we look in in in a bit of an older sense to give uh an example, we can look at progressive meal times. The non-negotiable there is that all children have a chance to have a meal. But is the negotiation here, does it have to happen all at the same time? That's that's not really something that is a non-negotiable. That's that's negotiation. You do have time and space. You know, as educators, we're in a lot of educators are there eight to ten hours of the day. Does it really matter if your children are eating at this time, or can you space it out so you don't interrupt that child's deep work within their creation that they're they're sitting down with? If they're not hungry right now, how how much is that a non-negotiable for that child? And or can you make it flexible so that it suits their actual needs?

SPEAKER_03 47:22

And I think what you've described, that process is actually critical reflection. Yes. You know, it's through critical reflection that you ask those questions and you identify, well, who is this helping and who is not going so well and why?

SPEAKER_02 47:34

And is this something that we do because it's what educators think it makes their life better or easier? Or it's just easier if everybody does it at once and then we can pack away and it's done, sort of thing. But actually, maybe if we try it a different way, maybe it's actually more relaxing for everybody. I I don't know, but it's important to have I think just think about it, have the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

How can we apply slow pedagogy throughout our day and include our routines and rituals surrounding the idea that potentially there's more negotiables than what we realise?

SPEAKER_03 48:07

But even what you've described applies for me in my work at the university. You know, there's a potential to be rushed through life, just generally.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

The last takeaway is inspiring. How would you inspire us today?

SPEAKER_02 48:20

I guess my inspiring thing would be don't be scared of theories, maybe. Like theories can be your friend. Um, there is no one right theory that's going to give you all the right answers all the time that's going to fit in every situation. But they can actually be really interesting, especially if you are, you know, I guess interested a bit like Andy and I, and going, Well, who is this Piage and where was he coming from? You know, why did he come up with this idea? I mean, uh Piage is an interesting character if anybody wants to go and read up about him. And Bulby too. Bulby too. Yeah. But don't like, don't, don't be scared of theories. Be open to them. You might find ones that you find are super effective and helpful, and other ones that you don't gravitate to so much. But yeah, I stick by that idea of just having a little toolbox, and maybe you only have two tools in there to start with, and over time you add one more, and then maybe down the track you add another one. But really, theories are meant to do something. They're no good if they're just an idea in a book somewhere. They should be something that's really practical that you can apply to how you view children or how you plan your curriculum. So don't be frightened to just go and explore them and give them a go. And and like Andy said before, I don't think it's something you should do on your own. Like hopefully, you've got a group of educators around you who are also interested in potentially learning a bit more about theories. And maybe you each have a different theory that you're interested in. But you know, talking with other people about them and thinking, well, what would happen if we applied this one in this situation? I think, you know, can be really enriching for children's experiences, but hopefully for you as an educator as well.

SPEAKER_03 50:01

And I guess I would add to that, it touches on what you said before, where our our theories become the lenses through which we act and interact, our practice. And so they can uh limit, they can constrain at times, uh, and they can enable a child's lived experience. And so if we remember what our purpose is in early childhood education in Australia, which is to uphold and promote the learning, development, and well-being of every child, the theories we use can shape those children's lived experiences. And so, to add to what Tina said about using other theories, you know, we we can get caught up in one. I've so often seen again, attachment theory is so strong. And then what does that look like for the child when we follow that? But if we take another perspective, what where do we end up uh in practice? And that's how it actually transforms the child's experience. So becoming an educator with a balanced approach towards theories, and how rewarding as an educator to know the impact and the why that you're working on contemporary thinking, you know, this is a lot of these are a hundred years old and they've been helpful, but we've got some really cool research about what and actually what I'm seeing more and more, which has been my observation as a practitioner, is that actually people have underestimated infant those taken for granted theories, uh proving, like Tina said, um, to not quite be accurate. So, you know, what what do children miss out on uh when we don't give them those those high level um it's what the EYLF says, high expectations within a reasonable frame. Um and to do that, it would help to use kind of contemporary theories or take or or developmental theories in contemporary critical ways.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

And I go back to what the goddess of infant toddler pedagogy Anne Stonehouse says, which is that the more you know, the more you see. That's right. So you know that I yeah, that the idea that infant toddler learning and development is subtle, right? She talks about it being subtle and easily overlooked or misunderstood. Whereas if you have a deep knowledge of what's going on for these different ages from research, from theory, it allows you to really see what it is that's happening for the child. I mean, you think about schema play, you might see that child putting those things in that trolley and pushing it across the room for the hundredth time today and think, well, what why are they doing that, right? But if you the more you know, the more you see, because you see that in a different light, and that changes you as a teacher and an educator, and so it changes what you offer to children. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast today. I've really enjoyed your time and having the conversation and being able to bounce around um the theories and ideas and and to hear from you both uh directly in regards to both the benefits and the negatives and the complexities towards working with theory and children and young children and toddlers as well. So really appreciate your time and thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. It's great. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Learn Playthrive the podcast. We hope you found inspiration and valuable insights to fuel your journey in early childhood education. Remember the key to fostering learning, promoting play, and empowering young minds lies with your dedication and creativity. Stay connected between episodes by following us on Instagram at learnplaythrive underscore and join the conversation on Facebook at LearnPlaythrive Australia. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please like, subscribe, rate, or review our podcast on your favourite platform. Your feedback helps us to continue to deliver content that resonates with you. And don't forget to visit us at our website at learnplaythrive.com.au for additional resources, blog posts, and professional development opportunities. Until next time, keep learning, keep playing, and keep thriving. We'll see you in the next episode of Learn Playthrive the podcast.