For the manager, if you have a loyal following, that'll stay with you the rest of your career. As a recruiter, I see that happen all the time. So, Lia, let's say you're working at Google, but then you move to Apple. You're gonna, and you're a good manager, I would guarantee you'd at least get one person hitting you up and saying, Hey, you know, I love it here, but I really like working with you.

I don't hate where I am, but I thought you were just the best manager. Do you have any openings? Can I come over there? Cause then. It. Ha. That happens all the time.

Welcome to the Managing Made Simple podcast, where I bring a decade of experience working in some of the most influential companies in tech to help you navigate the ins and outs of being a people manager. From conflicts to feedback, to delegating and more. We will leave no stone unturned when it comes.

So it makes us love managing, kind of hate it and everything in between. Doesn't matter if you're a new manager looking for some tips. or a seasoned manager looking to up their game, everyone is welcome to hang out with Managing Made Simple. Let's go. I know you're here because you want to be a better manager, but I also know it's often easier said than done.

That's why I put together a scorecard of 20 things that you can do this month and every month. To show up better for your team as a manager from positive feedback to recognition to honoring those working norms that we know we got to do, but sometimes forget this scorecard serves as a checklist and accountability buddy to remind you of all those things you got to do to be a great manager.

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Welcome back to the show today. I am so excited to have Jack Kelly with me. Jack is a senior contributor for Forbes, specializing in careers and leadership. He is the CEO of an executive search form, the compliance search group and the startup.

We cruder. He is the host of the blind ambition podcast. And Jack and I met recently and had an instant connection around our shared passion for supporting people and navigating the workplace and all of the change that's going on right now. Anything kind of workplace management top of mind, that is our jam.

So I'm so excited to have you on the show. Well, thanks for having me on. This is, you know, great. You know, your space management, it needs a lot of work, not you, not you personally, but the whole space. So you're, I think in a sweet spot for trying to help people because I think one of the biggest challenges workers have are their managers, right?

Like their bosses. Exactly. And I mean, I think You know, I've seen so much data from Gallup and other, you know, organizations that like the number one reason people leave is their manager, right? We've all heard it. You know, people don't leave jobs. They leave managers. And as a person that was a middle manager for, for a lot of my career, I felt like, well.

We kind of, that's not really fair. Like we're not getting enough support, like to just kind of carry the burden of that. So yeah, it's, it's been fun to be able to create this for, for managers to feel more supported so they can in turn support their employees better. You saw it. I think middle managers have it the worst because you know, Mark Zuckerberg, what was that just a few months ago was saying, Hey, I don't want managers managing managers, managing managers, which.

It's not a good, you don't want to hear that if you're a middle level manager, that's the last thing you want to hear because then all the other tech companies and outside the sector are going to start thinking, Hmm, do we really need all these people? Yeah, well, exactly. And I think what's tough is in a lot of large companies, especially the only path to growing in your career is managing people.

So like you're told you're supposed to amass like humans under you to, to be, you know, to be managing. Managing and yet. Then it's like, you're not useful. And so I think it puts even more pressure on, on middle managers and, and more of a challenge and figuring out like, you know, do I really want to do this?

I feel like I think, you know, data from gallops also talks about that. Most people become managers because they were good individual contributors. Or they've been in a company a long time. There's nothing to do with being a good manager or wanting to be a manager or getting any support to be a manager.

So if we're kind of just pushed into it and we don't have a lot of support and then we're told we're the problem, like what are we setting up people with? You know, it's so true. You're, you're dead on because you know, we're all told. Like in our generation, like Gen X ish, that to get ahead, you have to manage people and kind of keep growing and then so we feel, okay, that's what we're supposed to do and then you realize, I don't know, I don't really like it as much or sometimes if you're an individual contributor, you're awesome at it and they put you into a management role, it doesn't mean you have the skills to do it.

Right. Exactly. Especially if you were peers with folks before. I mean, this is something that I talk a lot about in my book and I talked about in podcasts. I think before is like, if you're managing someone you were friends with and you were kind of like you and them against the boss before and now you're the boss.

Like this is something that we don't always talk about. It's really uncomfortable. I think for, Entrepreneurs and small business owners, a lot of time you hire a friend or family member and you're navigating that dynamic of like, how am I managing my cousin who we, you know, grew up together whole lives and now we're technically, there's money and feedback at stake and, and there's not a lot of support there to figure out, well, how do we, you know, really make sure folks in any kind of manager capacity and any kind of leadership capacity are set up for success because it's funny, I think we've talked about this before, like.

Entrepreneurs and, and businesses, I don't think they see themselves as a manager necessarily, but like you are, if you're managing people, you, you are that, and that's how your employees sees you. So you want to make sure you've really thought about it. I love that you brought up about families because when I started my executive search firm, um, I pretty much hired friends and family and as you can imagine, it was always awkward and difficult, especially if you have to fire like a family member.

How to tell a story about that. What happened? Have you had to do that all the time? Yeah. So, so what? How did that go? Cause like, well, what happened is this. You know, you're starting out and, and you don't have much money, you know, you're just trying to bootstrap. So what do you do? You look around and you appeal to people who you kind of know and will help you out, but it doesn't mean they have the skills, the ability, the interest in what you're doing.

So the whole process is sometimes really uncomfortable because, you know, you're asking. You know, you know, you know, my goal to say, Hey, we, I need you to do X, Y, and Z and so forth. Just like a, you know, a manager would do. But then you get pushback. Like, I don't want to do this, but you're here to do this.

Well, you know, you, you told me to come and work here and I'm helping you out. So then they throw, so it gets that weird dynamic and then it gets really uncomfortable. And like, give you an example. We had this Thanksgiving thing at work and you know, Thanksgiving, you have, you know, turkey and other things.

This, this guy is, uh, vegan and I respect that. But, you can be vegan without just making everybody feel miserable about what they're doing. And so, you know how something starts innocuous, like, okay, a little teasing, and then you realize, wow, you're just being a complete and utter jerk. And then it just, and then when you're friends or you know someone.

Even in a work context, you kind of, you know, act like you're not at work and all of a sudden you're using, you know, you're cursing each other. It can come to fisticuffs and it gets really ugly. So it's, it's a really, if I had to do it again, I don't think I would do, I would hire. You know, family, close friends, it just gets, it's just too awkward, too weird, too uncomfortable.

Yeah. I mean, I think one, one strategy that I've, I've heard a lot about, and I've seen work really well as like having this conversation upfront. And I do have an episode on this. So like talking about like, this is going to be awkward. This might be weird. How do we want to have hard conversations? How do we want to talk about money?

How do we want to talk about difficult feedback? And I mean, it's not going to solve for everything all the time, but at least you've like approached that, like the relationship is different when we come through, you know, these doors are virtual doors when we sign on. And, and I think at least that gives you something to anchor back to, which is like better than not having anything at all.

But I think it is really tough, I think for the manager, maybe even more so because you know, the dynamics different and you're approaching it from a little bit of like a. You know, this isn't really how I would communicate this to, you know, random employee off the street. And so your whole approach to it is a little bit different and I think that can bring a hesitation around feedback or a bit of an awkwardness around it or, you know, you're approaching the situation differently and then that can be palpable.

For yourself, like what, what do you see in your daily work and speaking to people? Are there effective managers or a lot of managers really don't know what they're doing? You know, I think it's a little bit of both and I think folks are just not getting the support they need across, across the board. So I think a lot of large companies have some infrastructure in place around manager training.

You know, there's things talked about like feedback and, and you know, that we should be doing that and we should have like psychological safety, which feels very abstract and you know, when you just say the term, but how you put the rubber to the road. I feel like it's just a huge gap across, you know, any size organization and like, if you have a company and you have five people and you read a book about leading teams and you're trying to like have a hard conversation, but it's with your cousin, like we just said, or, you know, or you're in a large corporation and the pressure's on and you know, a lot of folks are virtual or hybrid.

You don't see people every day and you don't know really how to navigate that. I think, you Oftentimes, we're left to whatever we've experienced in the past. So we bring in whatever tools that a manager has used on us, even if we didn't like them or agree with them, or it's not authentic to us. So I think there's a huge gap that is causing managers to feel burned out and is really fueling the disengagement that people are feeling in the workplace.

Like, you know, I'm, I'm not really excited about the work that I'm doing. I'm not really motivated about it. I. I don't really know how long I'm going to be here and, and all the uncertainty is making all of it worse. So I think that we're in a moment where kind of any workplace needs to be investing so much more energy and, and managers because they, like we've said, like they are at the front lines and I think they're having to navigate stuff they never had to before.

And even if they should have had to navigate things like. Flexibility or talking more about people's personal purpose and motivation and all these things, whether they did or not, now they have to. And that can be really uncomfortable if you've, if you've never thought about these things before, or you never talked about, you know, safety or, you know, people, different comfort levels around, you know, whatever's coming up.

And so I think this is a moment where we're all being kind of like sort of push out of our comfort zone so much more. We could all really better support each other if we had more tools around it. So, you know, I think my big focus is on how. I think companies spend a lot of time on strategy, spend some, some time on purpose, vision, right?

The what, the why. But how work it's done, it's like supposed to magically come together. Like, no, it doesn't magically come together. What I find out, you know, what I've seen over the years through just recruiting is that You'll have somebody, and you kind of alluded to this, who's really, really good at their job.

And I equate it with, let's say sports, where a person could be an all star baseball player and be fantastic. And then that person retires and they put the, you know, put him or her into being a coach or manager. And then they just feel because they were such a great baseball player. Now you're going to be a manager.

And that happens in the real world, in the business world. So now you put someone who is great at what they do, you know, they're a rockstar, let's say they were a salesperson, they always beat their numbers, they're fantastic, but they can't make that segue. So now what happens, you lose that rockstar salesperson who's bringing a lot of commissions, and you put that person in a managerial role, and you don't train them.

That to me always like, Cause I would ask. I'm a nosy person. I like to, Hey, did you get trained? I'm always curious, right? And I've never heard like a manager say, Oh yeah, they gave me a course in management. I, you know, I was trained. Here's, I was mentored. I was coached. So they throw you in there and just think you're going to do well and you're not.

And that just gums up the works cause now, you know, you don't have that, you know, salesperson in that role who's doing great. And now you have somebody, now they're in that manager and they're not that good. And everyone's unhappy. Yeah. Literally. It's like, it's such an obvious thing to do, but I think that's where it's frustrating.

It's like, cause you're right. You, you lose on both ends. Like you had this star performer who now doesn't get to do that anymore. Or in some companies you're playing this, what they call like a player coach role. So you're still supposed to do all those previous responsibilities and manage and I have two jobs to do for the price of one.

And then that becomes really, really difficult as well. So, you know, it's funny. My mom is a professor for, for teachers getting their teaching credential. And it's the same, like people will go, well, I went to kindergarten. I could be a kindergarten teacher. It's like, well, it was a while ago. Yeah. Like I can do this or, and so just because we've had a manager or we've been at work, it doesn't mean we know how to do it.

And you're right. I think when there's not training, it's going to be so much more difficult and it's going to be, it's going to take so much longer. And right now, if we're trying to do more with less. which is the, the like slogan of the, of the moment and beyond, we have to make sure people are set up for success to be able to move fast.

And I think if you want to, you know, set people up for success in managing very quickly, the things to really, really focus on are. You know, training on how to give feedback, that's going to always be coming up, you know, how to, how to, you know, sharing feedback frameworks that are very simple, like situation behavior impact or, you know, radical candor, or there's a great book.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll link to the show notes. Like what are some concrete tools that I can use? Even if I'm like writing a script to myself at first, you know, then I think getting someone a coach or a mentor is incredibly valuable. And I think really making sure. That a manager is empowered around setting clear expectations and talking about what success looks like, meaning that manager has to understand what the expectations and priorities are.

So there is a ripple effect. Those are the places I would say to start first, again, in any size company, because someone is going to look to their manager on like, what does it mean to do a good job here? What am I supposed to be doing? You know, once I finish a project, how do I know it's done? How do I know I did it right?

These are questions that we're all asking really in any kind of job that If a manager really figures those things out, they can then kind of sort of get things moving as they build more of their skills and more confidence as a manager. You know, this is, you could, you might find this interesting in that for my company, what I did is I, I gave up being a manager because even though I found it, it started in a CEO of it, I found that I'm just not a good manager and I had enough self awareness to know my temperament really wasn't in line with being a manager.

You know, the attention to details, you know, the softer skills you need, like, you know, with, with the people who you're working with. I was much better at recruiting, and that's what I enjoyed more, that's where my strong suit was. And so I wanted to spend more, you know, and I figured, you know what? Like we talked a bit like the being in this show is that most people you're brainwashed really okay You got to manage and keep going up and up and up So I was stuck in that too thinking oh, I should be managing and you talked about the player coach So I'm managing and being a player coach and pulling myself in different directions and not as you know As successful as I could because I'm having two roles.

So then I realized you know what that's crazy I don't care whatever you're supposed to do. I don't have to do what you're supposed to do. I enjoy recruiting. I enjoy reaching out to people. I like pitching them on jobs, getting them a job, negotiating the salaries. And I don't like the other parts, you know, you know, keeping track of everybody, but others are good at that, are great at that.

So like, let's, you know, the, you know, I have somebody who's great at that. Let them do it. And it works for everybody. I love that. And I think small business owners that are listening to think about, is this a moment where you want to hire a manager, someone that can really help develop your people, cultivate people, really, you know, be in that role like that.

You don't have to do it just because you, you founded the company. I, I love that example. Cause when we're in a situation where we can do something different and we recognize we're not really good at that, we don't like that. Maybe we don't have the bandwidth right now. We're in a growth moment, right?

Like then find somebody that's going to do it because that person will do it so much better. Absolutely. And as you pointed out, where we are now in the economy, you know, with high inflation, high interest rates, you know, worries about a recession, worry about being dragged in World War III. It's not easy.

So you do need strong managers to keep these things going. Not even to mention about this whole remote, in office, hybrid, trying to take care of all that. So there's so many things swirling around. that you need people who are good at what they do, who are trained to be top managers to take care of it.

Otherwise it's just a mess and you have, you know, people who are disengaged, they're disconnected, they're quiet, quitting, they're loudly quitting. I just wrote loudly quitting, you know, because they're just unhappy and they're just miserable. Yeah. Well, I'm curious, you know, working in the recruiting space, you, you probably catch people right at the beginning when they're excited about something and then maybe when they lose that excitement and they go to their next thing, like, What do you feel like, what typically happens to someone, like in their, in their kind of career journey?

What's some of the drivers of that disengagement? It's such a great question because like I'll get exactly as you said, I'll get the people Uh, Hey, Can you help me out with something? And usually, you find the same kind of fact patterns. You find, you know, and it's almost a cliche at this point, you mentioned this before, like, it's just a bad manager that you're not happy with.

Like, the person doesn't respect you, they don't appreciate you, there's no psychological safety. And for, You know, uh, Lia mentioned it before, but psychologically, my understanding is that you could say or do things and you don't have to worry about someone biting your head off or yelling at you in front of your peers so that you can make a mistake and own up to it and people accept it without humiliating you.

So, like, not having that psychological safety, not having that appreciation. Sometimes people just want that pat on the back. You know, hey, you did a good job, Lia. The way you did X, that was fantastic. And you say it in front of other people, so then you're like, oh, you know, you really feel good about yourself.

You're like, yeah. And those are easy things to do. And then also what happens too is like, you find that the manager, this happens all the time. The worker is awesome, but the manager is mediocre. So, they don't want. To lose that all star person. So you keep that person's career down Because if they if if they get a lateral or move elsewhere within the company, you're going to lose that person And they know that they're not so good at what they're doing So you keep that person down and after a while the light bulb goes on for that work and realize You're just, oh my God, I'm never going to get ahead.

You're going to purposely sabotage. And I've seen this and heard that so many times that it's not like a coincidence. Where, yeah, they're kind of sabotaging their workers because they realize if I lose this person, I'm going to have to pick up the slack. I'm going to have to hire someone new. I'm going to have to train this new person.

You know, truth be told, that person doesn't really feel good about themselves and confident, so they don't want to do it. And they were lying as a crutch on that other person. So this is like the behind the scenes that goes on oftentimes, but you really don't hear that too much in the media. You don't hear like that type of thing going on, but it does.

And for people who are listening to this, they may wait, Oh my gosh, that's me. That's why I'm not getting, you know, that promotion because they're afraid. to, you know, to, to move me up. Yeah, absolutely. And I think if you're a manager listening and thinking like, Ooh, like I, I have these people that are indispensable and I'm, and I am worried about that.

I am kind of hanging on too tight. Knowing basically what you're looking to is when those people find out they are going to leave. And the best thing you can do as a manager is to build up your competencies and skills and whatever, so that. You can help elevate that person because the irony is people leave faster when they don't feel supported or they feel taken advantage of.

And I know like as someone that was 10 X er in my corporate work and always really crushing my goals when I felt like my manager was looking out for me and was helping me get more visibility and, and, and really amplify what I was doing. That's when I wanted to stay because I was like, well, I got a great situation here.

It was the times when I felt like, you know, I was just doing the job for someone that was getting paid more than me. Right? Like when we feel like a sucker, like we're like, Oh, screw this. I'm out of here. Yeah. Like, why am I doing? That's one of the reasons why I started my own company because I felt really being taken.

I was in another search firm. I was a partner there. Uh, I guess a junior partner, younger, both in age wise and what have you. And so I just. I wasn't treated fairly. And I remember so, Oh my God, this is like what more than 20 plus years ago. I remember so vividly Lia, you know, speaking to my dad and saying, Hey, I think I'm going to just start my own company.

And he's like, why are you going to do that? You're making like 200, 000, you know? So back then I was a lot of money, you know, now it's still a lot of money, you know? And I'm like, well, I just, I don't think I could look myself in the mirror and have to deal with a person I don't respect. And who's, God, I think he's cheating me too.

And I just can't live this way. I just gotta, I just can't stay. And the crazy irony is if he was a. More of a decent person. I probably would have been there till out. You know, I never would have started a company I never would have started doing something different. I just would have gone cuz I like the other people I like the folks I work with but just that one person just soured it Yeah, exactly and like you say that can be the difference and I think if you Right now with a lot of managers feeling burned out and kind of squeezed from both ends, from, from maybe their stakeholders or investors or clients, or if you're internal in the company from your own management chain and then your employees, you know, if you can sort of stop and say, okay, how do I want to show up as a, as a manager, as a leader, how do I want to make sure?

That I'm focusing on creating an experience on, on creating that psychological safety and building relationships with my team members on, on recognizing and amplifying their work. When you do that, you can, you can actually, you know, sort of have a little bit more control and a more sense of sort of normalcy in a time when there's so much out of our control and, and you can, you know, even when.

You know, even though there is a lot of known and maybe an employee goes on and moves on to something else, you'll know that, you know, you approach it in the right way that you've kind of figured out, well, how, how can I build a team that has longevity? How can I, you know, think about this in a way that's not in a survival mode.

Because when we act out of survival mode or out of fear, like it's, it's never really works out. And so, I mean, I'm curious for folks, you know, in your firm, if you work for folks in, in smaller businesses or, you know, that are worrying about attracting talent, there's a lot of uncertainty, like, or larger companies, like, how are you, how are you helping kind of quiet fears around a lot, some of the uncertainty going around and, and, and figure out how they want to approach that.

I think, you know, the wild thing is this, Lia, you really try hard as a manager to say, you know what, this is a profession, I'm doing this now, let me take this serious, let me read books on the topic, let me watch Lia's podcast and learn from there. And what you probably would find out is that, you know, the people who are reporting to you.

Will kind of rise to the occasion because they're going to see wow Even if they're bad at what they're doing, they see they're trying you know I mean you could tell that they're trying they're taking courses online and the person and the manager would have to broadcast that like hey Here's what i'm doing and be vocal about it And whether it's a small firm middle size large to say hey, I know I have to work on it And here's what i'm doing.

You know, i'm taking this coursework. I had I got a mentor I had this sponsor who's helping me out You know i'm going to these conferences and so on so then I think You know, the workforce will look and go, Oh, I really applaud that. I respect that. And then for the manager, if you have a loyal following, that'll stay with you the rest of your career.

As a recruiter, I see that happen all the time. So Lia, let's say you're working at Google, but then you move to Apple. You're going to, and you're a good manager. I would guarantee you to at least get one person hitting you up and saying, Hey, you know, I love it here, but I really like working with you. I don't hate where I am.

But I thought you were just the best manager. Do you have any openings? Can I come over there? Because then, that happens all the time. You know, all the time. Because let's say from my recruiting side, if there's somebody who's at a firm, oh my gosh, I work for that person. I would love to go back and work for that person.

So you then create a brand for yourself as that manager. That people want to come to you and then people come want to work for you. Then you have your choice of employees. And if you have your choice of employees, you can get the best of a lot. So then if you have the best people working for you, you're going to be even better manager because now you have like, you know, an A plus team.

So this is what drives me crazy. Is that like, it's not rocket sciences away. You're like, this is stuff that you can do. Like, I can't be a software engineer, go and start being a developer now at my age. No, I'm too dumb. My brain doesn't work like that anymore. I just can't, I can't focus. I have like TikTok mindset.

I could only look at something for so long, but, uh, you know, you can do that. You can learn these things, you know, you can learn these, you know, how to be a better manager, and then that can really rocket you up because then their career could go up because then they're going to hear all these. Accolades, you know, from the reviews, the annual reviews, you know, about how, you know, when you have 360 degree reviews, how great the manager is.

And then that manager can kind of get promoted and keep going higher. So it's, it's one of those things it's, it's, I don't want to say easy to do because nothing is really easy to do, but it's easier, let's say, than me becoming a software designer or software developer to actually learn better skills to be a manager.

Yeah. And I think it's, it's all about really, you know, making that effort and really having that self awareness too, right? Like, I think that's probably the hard part and not, and, and reflecting, even if you think you're already good at it, like there's a lot, you know, what's sad is, you know, often the people that opt out of training and coaching are the ones that are worst at it.

Like that's, that's typically right. Like, Oh no, I'm, I'm, I got this. I don't need it. Like when I ran, you know, large manager trainings in, in, in the corporate world, like as an internal employee, so I could kind of see who was participating. I noticed like, Oh, the managers who really should have been here, like they opted out, like they, they're good.

But, but I think if we all say, Hey. This is people skills. This is interpersonal dynamics. We always could get better at that. We're always evolving and always developing this. If we all just like agree to that, that fact that we could always be better at it and then take that time and invest in it and get a mentor coach or.

Or before we have a hard conversation, go to a colleague and say, Hey, can I run this by you? How am I giving this feedback? I want to make sure this lands well and invest in, you know, in, you know, you talked about sharing with your team members, the, that the investment you're making in your own professional development.

Well, that's a huge builder of psychological safety because. You're sharing that vulnerability, like, Hey, I got stuff to work on too. Here's what I'm working on. You can create an open door for feedback. Now saying, you know, I'm working on not being a micromanager. Can you share if I get a little bit too far in the weeds?

Like I want to, I want you to keep me honest. You can do things like that by, by really, by, you know, having that conversation and, and it's like you say, it's not hard, the self awareness and the continual. effort I think can, I think where the continual focus on it can feel like it, but this is not that time consuming either.

Like, I think one thing I always like to explain to folks when I'm talking about focusing on the how and building our skills, all the miscommunications, all of the looking for new candidates and hiring and interviewing and having a low performer because they didn't understand expectations. That's the stuff that takes a lot of time, you know, like having a conversation with a team member, not time consuming.

Couple things one empathy something as simple as that. Yeah, especially now that we We're still wrestling with in office, not in office, remote work, hybrid work, and let's say the manager lives in New York City, and they have an apartment in New York City, they're like, what's the big deal? Come to the office.

Where someone like me, I moved out of New York City, I had two kids, go to the suburbs, and it takes an hour and a half to go in! So, They're leading from, oh, I'm, you know, I could work to work, I could walk to work, where their workers It's an hour and a half schlep to get in there. Yeah, and they just don't, they can't appreciate it And then you, you probably see this and then you get that conflict where then people start getting really upset Let's say you come in late and the boss gives you a dirty look because you're coming late I'm coming late because it's like an hour and a half and there was a snowstorm and You know, I had to have to drag myself in because I can't work at home And just a little empathy would go a long way.

Yeah, I agree. I think it's empathy both for the, the experience that maybe you're not in the midst of, and then understanding that issues like RTO are huge equity issues that, you know, we really can't ignore the, you know, you said like, You know, the distance people live, the, the access to childcare, they have the access to transportation.

They may have all these different factors that if we just apply what works for us, because we're in a leadership position where maybe we have a little more support or we have a little more, you know, resources, whatever. So I think when it comes to any of these issues as a manager, like you say, Bringing that empathy and thinking about not how you would feel in the situation, but like how, what does that other person's experience?

And so I talked about this with, with, with feedback, you know, I've heard from a lot of managers like, well, I wouldn't be bothered if a manager told me I messed something up. Like, I want that feedback. I want to know that I screwed up. It's like, well, If that other person, if that's not going to work for them, like we actually don't really care if you'd be bothered because you're thinking about how that message is going to land with them.

So it's really, I think you, like you say, it's a, it's a perspective taking even more than, you know, thinking about yourself and the situation. So yeah, it really is that empathy and in letting go of what would bother you or what would work for you or what maybe you be. And looking at what the times are kind of like calling us to right now.

Yeah, i'm so glad you also brought up child care because I didn't realize because my kids are older I didn't realize how expensive it is for child care Because what would happen is I would hear people talking whether I was writing articles for forbes and like interviewing people And when they started telling me about like how much it cost I was just like blown away.

So when you figure out your salary, your partner's salary, and then after taxes, and then child care, it's like, oh my gosh, that's taking a big chunk. And then if you don't have a manager who could understand that, and this is, Lia, I would hear this a lot from people. I would hear, oh my god, this rhymes. I forgot all about this.

I would hear this so much where someone would say, and they feel bad saying this, they would say something like, You know, this person doesn't have any kids, so their whole life is around work, so they feel, you know, my whole life is at work. So then when it comes to, let's say, my kid has, you know, my daughter has a ballet recital and my son is playing t ball, whatever it might be, they would look askance and be like, oh, what are you doing?

Because they just could not relate. They live, let's say, they're living in New York, the office is in New York, they don't have kids, don't have planet kids, and so they have no idea how much childcare costs, how much the commute costs, which is very expensive by the way, and they don't, so they're oblivious to it, and I think that even hurts people more, because then they're like, how can they be so oblivious, and then how can they be mad at me?

What I just want to go to a school play. And now I got to feel guilty that I'm going to a school play and I'm never going to get that time back ever again. Yeah. Yeah. That, that's like a manager that just really burns bridges. Absolutely. And I think like you're saying, you know, it's a manager's responsibility to understand like what the different situations are of any employee.

Like what could come up between childcare, between religious holidays of folks that maybe you don't celebrate that. Like what is the awareness of? You know, for things about time zones, you know, I worked at, you know, it, it, it Google a lot of the teams I was on had global teams with folks in India or Europe and like just putting something out, you know, there's six o'clock in the middle of dinnertime.

Like that's not being thoughtful to like, what is the, what is the experience of your different employees? Even again, if it's not the one that you have. And getting informed and asking people about it and, you know, experimenting with things. And I think there's a flexibility in how we work, location wise, and in just fluidity, a flexibility of like how we, norms around all these different things that come up.

You know, it reminds you, so the people I play so primarily Wall Street oriented, not literally Wall Street now, because now Wall Street is just like everywhere. And there'd be these roles that you would have, let's say a control room, where you're making sure people aren't trading on inside information.

So you would have people working really odd hours 24 7. And it was always hard to find somebody who wants to be like, you know, imagine being in San Francisco or Chicago at three in the morning by yourself. Yeah. And they would like push people to do it. And, you know, and I imagine I get it on one side, but to your earlier point, why people leave?

You're like, all right. You're making me come into this to a city at three in the morning and the city is kind of dangerous and I got to worry about my safety. This is nuts. Like, how can you even make me do this? And if I don't do this, I lose my job. You know, it's awful. It's awful. And I think, you know, and there's, we're running out of time.

The RTO issue is such a big one right now. And actually the episode that came out today was about my hot takes on RTO. Like, I think like, my big point around it is we are trying to Like solve for all these different issues by having people come back to the office leaving all these issues unresolved. So like, if you want to, you know, be more clear on productivity and efficiency, and that's the big thing, then there's so many ways to solve that that aren't just having people sit in the office or installing eye tracking software or something like that.

Like, no, you know, if you want people to feel that company culture and have an easier time onboarding, then that's solved in a different way. Like being very intentional about, you know, onboarding, getting mentors. buddies, onboarding cohorts, whatever it is, before we figure out the, the, in office, if it's, you know, because you want to have more collaboration or idea exchange, there's things that you can do.

And I think like we've talked about, there's a lot of, there's so much value to being in person and being other people. It doesn't, it's not about that. It's about understanding the bigger context that we're all in, you know, how we have a new relationship with time and with. space and flexibility, like folks that have been able to work from home.

I know a lot of jobs don't haven't gone, you know, remote or hybrid, but those that have, we can't just go back to before and pretend that never existed. So we have to approach it differently. Do you think we're going to find a way to do it because this keeps going on? Oh my gosh. I don't think we'll go to a, like most industries in five days.

I really don't. I mean, I think that's very unlikely because like we know that we can do it another way. There's just not, like you say, even that the role you're talking about in. That works all night. It's like, why can't that job be? Unless there's some sort of like security thing, or a lot of folks that work on hardware are fine.

There's a reason, but like when there's not like a super justifiable reason to physically be there, especially if there's a lot of hardships, it doesn't make sense. And I think, especially as Gen Z and younger folks join, you know, the workforce and larger numbers where they value flexibility, like above like all else in many respects, I think we really are going to need to see the thoughtful reasons for bringing people together.

Makes a lot of sense. And I don't think it's one size fits all, right? Like you say, if you're working on really high security, you know, equipment or you're doing hardware or you're, you know, working in a trade or whatever, like, yeah, okay. But, but like, there's a, there's a, you know, millions of jobs that can, can and have been done flexibly.

So I'm curious before we wrap, you know, what's, what's. It's something you're working on that you're excited to share with our audience. I'd love to hear more about your, yeah, Cochiro. So I, um, so basically, uh, kind of what we're talking about now is so many people are unhappy and miserable in what they're doing.

You know, uh, as a recruiter, I would always get people just, you know, asking, Hey, what job do I take? You know, am I getting ripped off? Am I getting low balled? Which offer should I choose? How do I negotiate salary without blowing it up? So then I realized, let, let me, let me put together a startup where I could really offer value to people who not, who, you know, can navigate their careers, whether it's salary negotiations, how to interview.

A lot of people are terrible at interviewing. They need a lot of help, how to interview. And also I'm infusing it with AI as well because sometimes people don't want to speak to a human being. They rather, you know, have you know, kind of information, kind of share with them and cut out the middle human being and go right to it.

So it's kind of a combination of like white glove helping people out as well as some ai. And then what I'm trying to do is build up, find like top tier career coaches and mentors. And this way we could kind of. If let's say somebody is working as an accountant kind of maybe point them to the right person who really knows that area really well so that we could we could just help people during these difficult challenging time.

I think we're in this weird spot for a while and and if we could help people and I did this a lot during the pandemic and it's it's really satisfying work because you have people who are upset who are worried got laid off in between jobs not knowing what to do and to help them get through it is it's it's good.

So You know, as a business person, hopefully I can make some money doing it. Let's be honest. But at the same time, if we can help people, that's just awesome. I love that. And say the name again and I'll put it in the show notes. Cochiro. Cochiro? Okay, awesome. Sounds like Coach Hero. I love it. Yeah, yeah. So, so it's, uh, I'm looking, we just started, you know, we're getting up and running and, uh.

If you know any people who need some career, you know, help, let me know if you want to be a career coach, let me know. I'd love to have you guys be part of everything. Love it. And anything you want to leave our listeners with before we wrap? Yes. How about this? For the management, maybe by listening to, as Leo and I were talking, and I'm sure in her other podcasts as well, you want to advocate for yourself so that if you do find yourself with a bad manager, it's easy to be like, F you, I'm out of here, but you know what?

A week later, you're going to regret that, you know, leaving without another job. So you want to try to see internally that you could make, you know, you can make a change. Sit down, see if you can speak with your boss, speak with HR, speak with somebody else to try to ameliorate the situation and work it out.

Simultaneously, you want to do a bit of a stealth search. So if it doesn't improve, you don't have to start from square one. So you find some recruiters, tap into your network. Look at the job boards, send out your resume, be careful about it because you don't want to blow up your spot. So, you don't have to deal with a bad boss in a bad situation.

You could try to either make it better internally, but if that doesn't work, stealthily look for another job, because you deserve to be happy. No one deserves to kind of go to work every day and dread it. Yeah. I love that. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks for an awesome conversation.

And yes, I will include links to CoachHero and your stuff on Forbes in the show notes. Thank you so much. It was great speaking to you again. You too. That's all I have for today. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Managing Made Simple podcast, where my goal is to demystify the job of people management so that together we can make the workplace somewhere everyone can thrive.

I always love to hear from you, so please reach out at LiaGarvin. com or message me on LinkedIn. See you next time.