Some of us had a belief early in our careers. I certainly did that. You know, if I can just get to this certain level, I'll have it all figured out. Right? Ugh. So look at that job up there, that vp, that EVP job. And I have to say, it's really become clear to me that very senior people in very big companies do not feel like they have it figured out.

Welcome to the Managing Made Simple podcast, where I bring a decade of experience working in some of the most influential companies in tech to help you navigate the ins and outs of being a people manager from conflicts to feedback, to delegating and more. We will leave no stone unturned when it comes to what makes us love managing, kind of hate it and everything in between.

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In the workplace right now, we're all feeling stuck. Managers are burning out. Employee engagement is on the decline, and women are leaving the workforce at record numbers. And if you have a small business, you're wondering when is the right time to scale. The good news is you do not have to solve these problems alone if you're looking for tools to better support your managers.


Welcome back to the show. Today I am so excited to have Rachel Smith with me. Rachel is a director of Strategy and Operations at Google, and spoiler alert, Rachel was a former manager of mine a number of times while at Google, so it's gonna be such a fun conversation.

Rachel is a seasoned leader and manager who has dedicated her career to helping individuals and teams do great work. We had a lot of alignment there. She has worked at Google for over a decade, and previous to that was a leader in multiple high growth startups. So, as I mentioned, Rachel and I met at Google where she was my manager across a number of different roles, both while I was an individual contributor and as a people manager.

And if you've read my book, unstuck, she was that manager that I mentioned who helped me overcome my fear of owning my accomplishments, of writing a book and really celebrating that instead of downplaying it. If you didn't know I wrote a book, I did. It's awesome and you should definitely check it out. So I will put that in the show notes.

Rachel, I am so excited to have you here on the show. Thank you so much for having me. I love the episode so far and I'm really honored to be a guest. Rachel, you know, across your career, you've, you've worked both on the HR side and the product side with. Big tech and startups, meaning, you know, you've seen all angles of what leaders struggle with when it comes to managing teams, the ins and outs, the goods, the bads.

And I'm curious, what's been one of the most common things you've seen leaders wrestle with in your career? Where do, where do folks get most stuck? The, the place where I think there's the biggest opportunity for leaders to get unstuck is really leading with empathy. And I think that in the work setting, it's easy to forget that what you're seeing of a person is kind of like the tip of an iceberg.

You see this bit of them showing up at work, you know, putting their best foot forward, and there's a whole person, a whole life that exists under the water that you don't get to see unless you. Take time and earn trust and have, have conversations with people to get a better sense. I don't think you'll ever get a full sense of that, but I think really good managers, even, even really good managers, need reminding and, and really good managers are able to get to know people and know that there's big stuff happening, whether it's marriages, divorces, babies on the way, sick parents.

There's just a lot of, a lot that going on there and there's a a lot of opportunity to. Think about and listen to people to understand what is their full picture so that we can really not just think of people as the kind of work robot showing up doing the work, but really as a whole person. I think there's just a lot of room for us all to do better at that.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And you know, especially for folks that are managing distributed teams or hybrid and you're not seeing people every day feel things can feel so transactional. Yeah. You, you know, you log into a meeting, you, you hang up the phone, you go do something else and missing all of that interstitial time, we can really lose sight of this point.

So it, it's so important, and I'd love to, to build on this and ask, well, how do you create some of that when we are overloaded in meetings, when we are running from one thing to the next, um, or when. The last thing we want to do is join a team lunch because we just need to get up and take a walk outside.

Like what are some of the things that you've done personally or suggested to, to leaders to, to build that relationship? Yeah. I think there's two things. One is taking advantage of the moments when they exist. So sometimes there's a, a few minutes where people are joining a meeting, maybe virtually and in person, making sure that you are, um, breaking the ice even if you feel awkward to, to ask a question and engage with people.

And then the other thing is, is really being intentional and I think in a situation where there's a distributed team, so not everyone is in person. Maybe everyone's remote, maybe it's a mix. It's about setting aside some time intentionally to have that connection, which can feel awkward. You know, I was thinking about the beginning of the pandemic when like a lot of knowledge workers suddenly we crash, landed into home life instead of.

Being in the office five days a week, and many of us, myself included, were dealing with kids suddenly out of school and at home and really trying to say, okay, where are those moments where we're not overburdening people, but where we can come together and have a cup of tea? Or, or eat lunch or have some fun together.

You know, I think companies got really creative during the pandemic to find ways. We did a comedy show, uh, with one of my teams, which I was super skeptical about doing that virtually, but actually it was fantastic. And so I think remembering to make those connections and whether it's at the beginning of a one-to-one and, and not just jumping into business or, or finding just those little ways.

I, I said during the pandemic, I, I realized that. You know, if, if you think of companies and relationships all working together like an engine, you know, really well run machine, those little moments, talking to someone in the elevator, waiting in line for coffee with someone, those are like the oil that just grease.

Mm-hmm. Greased that engine a bit. And when we stripped all that away, it really got hard things got Yeah. Tougher to do and, and it took a lot of the joy out of the work. Yeah. And so I think finding ways to have that connection, at least for me, is really what brings me joy. Absolutely. And like you say, I mean the power of investing, even if it's for a few minutes at the beginning of one-on-one, that relationship building, this creates the trust and psychological safety so that then you can have hard conversations.

And this is why I talk about this so much in my manager development work of the power of building relationships is because without that, we can't really coach. We can't really give effective feedback. We don't really know, you know what someone's full potential is because. We haven't invested in them.

And I would say to folks that if you're in a one-on-one and you know you got a lot going on, you're just kind of jumping right in the business or, or your team member doesn't volunteer a lot of information about them to not give up on that. To still continue to, to, to try to share, to model that so that there's a space open for that.

And I think when we jump right into everything feeling so transactional, We're, we're kind of inadvertently removing any chance of having that oil in the machine. Can I add one thing? No, I think if it feels awkward, if you're a manager who doesn't do that a lot, it might be hard to start. I think being transparent with your team that you want to spend a little bit more time in one-to-ones getting to know people, finding out what's going on in their personal life.

And then that gives them some time to prepare as well, so they're not caught off guard by a, a big shift from you of like, oh, why, why are you asking suddenly about my personal life? Right? Yeah. And so I think as always, I think being transparent and say, I want, I want to build that connection or build that, um, understanding of what's going on for you.

So wanna spend some of our time talking about that too. Yeah, love that example. And I know two things that you did in in your team meetings that I really admired were one was high fives recognition, like having moments where people could say, Hey, thank you, you know, Joe, uh, for, for helping me out. That thing.

So that you are creating some moment of recognition and, and belonging connection throughout the team. And second, one thing that was awesome was having folks maybe once a month teach something or do a share out. And this is a fantastic thing to do, whether you have a small team or a large team of having someone show something to a case study, teach something.

Because a lot of times another risk or or consequence of being distributed, being remote is we get really siloed on our work and we think, well, I don't really need to know what Joe's working on. He really doesn't have a lot of overlap. But actually if I do learn about it, maybe there's an idea that I have, or a month down the line I see, oh, that thing actually does connect to my work.

So creating moments where people can be learning from each other, even if it feels like, well, they could kind of totally do their jobs even without that. It's really powerful and that also builds more connection across teams. Absolutely. It also takes some of the pressure off you as a manager, right, to come up with content for a team meeting thing and what are all the updates I have to give?

And obviously it's important to do pass downs and share information that you may be aware of as the leader, but I absolutely love it. It gives people practice talking in front of their peers, which obviously for some people is easy-peasy. And for some people it's pretty nerve-wracking. So to try that out and build those muscles too.

So there are a lot of benefits for doing it. Yeah, great point. Same with using breakout rooms. As a person that creates content, I'm like, I gotta pack every single second and then I'll have a breakout room. And I think, well, they're getting this time for free. And it's like, they love it. People love breakout rooms.

You'd be surprised, I think pairing people together that maybe don't work together. That's very powerful. I. So speaking of, you know, motivation, engagement, this is something that I think we're seeing is, is declining and waning in all kinds of industries. There's a lot of data coming out of the Gallup organization that employee engagement being reported at is lower and lower year after year.

And I'm curious, and I know we talked about some of these already, but. Any other strategies that you've used to, to really intentionally fuel engagement? Yeah, I would build on something I think, think you've talked about, uh, before in some of the podcasts, which is having a real clear sense of purpose.

What is the why of the work that we're doing? And being sure that everyone on the leadership team can articulate that why in one sentence or less, something very repeatable so that everyone is aligned and grounded. So I think that's the starting point. And then second, it's ensuring that for the broader organization, you're regularly connecting people to that why.

And that, depending on what the why is, that could look at a look a lot of different ways. It could be user panels or stories from customers or even personas that you create about the people who are using your product, but really helping bring that to life regularly because I think even teams with a clear why can lose sight of it in the day-to-day, just grind of work.

And then the other thing I think would be really focusing on two-way communication. So leadership teams and leaders need to be cascading information, talking about what's on their mind, helping again, make those connections to people between the work and the why. But sometimes I think leaders can lose sight of the importance of that, the feedback coming the other way.

So how much of your time are you listening? And that can be formally, right? You've run focus groups and, and surveys and things like that. There's also, of course, just making time. If you're passing someone in the hallway or have a few minutes to ask a question, you know, how, how is this landing with you?

Or what did you think? And of course leaders will always say, but I don't know if I'm hearing the truth and Right. We have to find ways to create psychological safety and at times anonymity, let's say with surveys where people can be really candidly honest, so we know. And it never hurts to ask. And, and see what people say and keep that, you know, in the back of your mind, am I getting the full, the full story or not?

And you'll never know for sure, but if you don't ask, you're, you're a, you're not getting the opportunity to hear and, and, and b, you're not sending that message that you genuinely care what other people think. Could not agree more with both of those. Jumping back to the dot, connecting, I mean, this is something that is, is so critical to create that sense of purpose and motivation and, and to show people.

I think when you're hearing as a manager, if someone says, I feel like my work is so tactical, or it doesn't matter, or, you know, I, I'm not motivator, why am I here? These are all signals. That you can enlist this dot connecting skill and change the whole game for them. You know, I, I've mentioned I worked as a program manager and in team operations a lot of times in this work as a program manager, folks say it feels really tactical.

It's behind the scenes, it's administrative, and when that becomes someone's narrative about their work, Then they start looking at that. They don't see the way forward, and then they don't feel engaged. They feel like, well, what's the point of this? What I like to do in this situation is say, Hey, let's look at this in a totally different way.

Let's reframe this. You know, a program manager is really the glue across different pieces of the work. Without that, we would be, we wouldn't understand what needs to be, get, get done and why, and what the risks and mitigations are, and when you can do this storytelling as a manager and really help someone reframe that narrative.

Not only are they more motivated and engaged, but now they can better articulate the value that they bring to an organization. It's so important for managers. I know our team members should also be able to connect the dots and, and it is on them to be able to articulate their impact, but we play such a big role in helping them see that when someone is coming to you saying, diminishing or downplaying what their work is, I think that's a great signal to help do that dot connecting and then you can watch that whole narrative transform.

I totally agree and. Plug for your book for more strategies on how to reframe. It's so powerful. That's right. With motivation, engaging, waning, as we just talked about, you know, and, and so much change and things going on. For you as a, as a manager, as a leader, what are some of the things that you do personally that have helped you feel a little bit more stable?

I think for me, reflection and introspection is really where I get grounded. I started doing something a few years ago that I called my personal summits. Where I go away, I carve out a day or two and really give myself time to journal, to walk, to reflect, and think about whatever the big questions are for me.

And it's usually across, uh, spectrums. I did one at the beginning of this year around what do I wanna be true in my family life at the end of the year? So with my husband, with my child. What do I wanna be true as a manager? How do I wanna grow and develop my team? How do I wanna invest there? And then how do I wanna show up as a general employee?

Like what are my personal achievements that I want to focus on? What are the areas I wanna grow and demonstrate this year? And I always treat myself to a nice little journal. It's nice to have something to physical for me to hold onto, to look back on reply. And for me that just, I come away from those just kind of with my shoulders relaxed a little bit, saying, okay, I know what is, is most important for me right now.

Um, and that becomes my, my guiding light throughout the next six months or year until my next, my next personal summit. Yeah, and I wanna share, you know, from when when you started doing this, I was working for you and I was managing folks at the time, so you were managing a manager and I came to you feeling stuck and you suggested that I do a personal summit and I think just wanna remind folks that making space for people to do things like this, this helped me show up better as a manager when I came back from reflecting and.

You shared the questions that you were working on are reflecting on as, Hey, here's some, some place to get started. If you're like, I don't even know what to do with this day off. Right. Um, but also suggested some just time for myself to take a step away. And I think really, you know, we can't, it's, it's cliche by now.

We've all been saying it, you have to put on your oxygen mask before helping others. But I think especially for managers, managing managers, When you see someone getting stuck, help create space and time for them to do the things that are going to help them feel more grounded. And so I, I loved the personal assignment both as something that you, you created as, as just something to do.

I, I do this kind of thing now in my, in my own business of having kind of heads down thinking time. Hmm. But in the corporate world, or. You know, in, in many other kinds of jobs, we don't create that space. And, and you really modeled that as a leader and showed both the importance of that and, and giving permission to take the time and do it.

Now, as you know, working on my own, I have to be doing that. And so that really helped me build the muscle. And this is another thing I think that I really. Appreciated about working with you and, and a and a suggestion about to, to other managers is really celebrating these interests and passions that I had and not stifling them or, or, or saying, you know, Hey, are you focused on work enough?

Like, I was a really high performer that did a great job, that had all these other interests, and you helped amplify all of those for managers out there worrying. Well, if a team member has all these other interests, are they gonna do their, their day job less good? Or sort of trying, feeling worried about that.

People will do their best work when they're living their whole full expression themselves. And while I was there, I was kicking ass. And I think that's something because of that support that you gave, and it's important that folks realize people are gonna do that stuff anyway on their own. They just might not be telling you about it.

Absolutely. And I think finding ways to. Even bake it in, let's say, to expectations if your, if your company or your team does expectation setting. Um, and for some people it can be something as amazing as writing a book or doing a TED talk. Um, for other people it's like, I wanna go to the gym twice a week.

And so if I share that goal and create some boundaries, like how can I fit that in? Um, or maybe it's, I wanna have dinner with my kids every night, or maybe it's, I wanna plan an amazing trip. Whatever it is, it, it provides that into. Help see what's really important to someone and then see how can we make sure that work doesn't interfere with those personal goals that you have.

Um, and cuz there's a lot of ways, I think, with many, many jobs and, and we're lucky to work in, in the space, uh, in tech where there is flexibility, but. If you have a conversation with someone, you usually can make things work. Um, and I think it, it brings us, as you said, people come back then to the workspace with more energy and enthusiasm because they are feeling like they're thriving as a human being.

Um, so I think it, it both, you know, is the right thing to do because people, you know, you only get one life, right? Like you gotta live it. Um, and work is just one part of that. Um, and it also serves work if people are showing up, feeling like they're cared about as human beings, um, and that they've had a chance to get the right balance for them.

And balance isn't just like time off work or working right. It's like, what, what are all the things I'm trying to achieve in my life? Yeah, absolutely. And again, as Rachel called out, this is, this is how people actually go above and beyond this is when they do that. And it's like, I think it's a misconception often of.

Oh, well then I'm gonna take the foot off the gas. Then that person's not gonna be giving their all. You can really tell right away when someone is doing, you know, doing their job or not. If you're worried about that, then that actually is a different thing to be exploring of. Have I done enough to build a relationship?

Have I set clear expectations? Are we on the same page about what success looks like? Are we really clear on priorities? Is it worthwhile to have some sort of, not overbearing, but like a end of the week recap or something like that? Right, because absolutely. You can actually use, there's other tools to get insight into what people are working on.

For sure. What's something that you've seen companies get wrong when it comes to developing managers, supporting leaders and, and supporting their teams? When I think back about the first time I became a manager, My hunch is I was doing a good job at my individual contributor role and was like, oh, so can you manage these, these other people who happened to be peers of yours yesterday and now today are gonna be your direct report?

And I didn't get a lot of guidance. I didn't get any training. I was just kind of thrown into it. And I think a lot of people, um, have a similar experience, either as a new manager or they've seen that with their own managers and so, I would say that companies really need to think very carefully about the role and how you select for managers, because being good at it as an individual contributor is a different set of skills than being a manager.

And then second is how do you help support people in that transition? Help them build those skills. This, to some extent, until you're doing the job, um, you're, you can't build the muscles. You can get ready and think about it and have your perspective, but it's, it's in the day to day that you really. You know, build the muscles to be able to be a really great manager.

And so I think, I think it's really important that companies invest and find what is their way to, to train new managers and seasoned managers, right? Because even if you've been doing this a long time, if you're not focused on it, it's easy to kind of fall into. Old habits or not prioritize it. And then another thing that you talk about in, in your podcast is accountability, right?

How do you, how do you hold managers accountable? What is the feedback mechanism from their direct reports so that they're not just managing upwards, but are they, you know, actually doing their job well? And how is that taken into account in their performance management? I think we've all had managers who we think are not doing a good job.

Luckily for me, it's only a hand, small handful. But you kind of wondered at the time, like, does anyone see this? And see what's happening here. And I think, to be honest, honestly, most companies don't see it. And so being really, really critical in how you set up those mechanisms as a leader, as a founder, to ensure that you have those signals.

Yeah, I love that. And I just pulled up the data. I'm gonna put it in the show notes. From Gallup top two reasons that people become managers is tenure in the individual contributor role, or success as an individual contributor as you just called out. So the data shows it that we actually most often promote people in a manager or ask people to take on manager without any support in any training.

And so maybe that's where they start it, but it doesn't have to end there. Exactly. And so like you said, you know, this is an opportunity to make sure folks have mentorship or coaching or training or development, or can do shadow before they become a manager. They can have an intern or you know, support onboarding.

So that you, you know about it, and the way that you find out if someone wants to be a manager is through a career conversations and having regular conversations with folks. I know when I first said to you that I wanted to be a manager, there wasn't an opportunity to hire, but now that was on your radar.

From there, we could have conversations about, well, what do I have to do to get ready for that? What are the opportunities maybe to shape a job description of what that would look like? As I expanded my role, These are all the things that you can do in the meantime as a manager, after someone's communicated something that's interesting to them.

Sometimes they think managers worry, well, if I have the career conversation, they tell me all this stuff. What if I, what if I can't make it happen? Or what if it's not the right path for them? That gives you runway to really figure that out. That's all things that you can do by, by having the conversation and having it on a, on a regular interval.

And I mean, yes to accountability. It's my favorite. Yes. Favorite concept. Percent hundred. Yeah. You gotta have that feedback loop as you say. I think a lot of times a company might have a survey that's, that's not the only way to collect inputs on how people feel about their managers. Because a lot of things, people are afraid, is the manager gonna see this is what if?

What if there's retaliation? How do you create enough mechanisms where. You really have a pulse on it, and that's gonna have to be through a number of different vehicles. Having skip level meetings is really helpful. Having informal focus groups, lunch and learns, collecting feedback, having anonymous feedback channels, whatever it is as, as you talked about, is, is so important.

It doesn't create a, you know, a finger pointing culture creates a culture of like, Hey, we want everybody to be successful and, and, and, and be supported, so we're gonna have feedback be more common here. Exactly. You've managed individual contributors, managed managers, and, and also working adjacent to and, and in support of many senior leaders across your career.

I'm curious, what's something surprising that senior leaders, VP level executive executives, uh, wrestle with, uh, that our audience might be interested or surprised about learning about? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think, um, Some of us had a belief early in our careers. I certainly did that. You know, if I can just get to this certain level, I'll have it all figured out.

Right? Oh, so look at that job up there. That vp, that EVP job. And I have to say, it's really become clear to me that very senior people in very big companies do not feel like they have it figured out. And many of them who maybe struggled with imposter syndrome early in their careers that stays with them.

Um, kind of no title or no, no level of promotions or compensation necessarily takes that away. And so, you know, I think, I think in some ways that's reassuring. In some ways that makes me also a little bit sad. Um, I have to say, I've had moments where especially let's say, really accomplished senior women leaders who I really respect and really look up to and are role models for me, you know, have shared with me their own struggles still.

And I thought, oh, I just wish you could see how we all see you. Um, and so I, I think it's, but it's also humbling. It's like, okay, well, you know what? This is just part of the reality for some of us that we have this and our hope that it might go away anytime soon on its own is probably not gonna happen and say, okay, so then how do I, um, still focus on my career?

You know, not let this block me, because not blocking that senior person, they're still crushing it. It's just something that is, is, is part of who I am or part of the reality that I have right now. Obviously, I think doing coaching, um, for some people, therapy, um, you know, to, to work through whatever's going on for you, but also, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't need to stop you.

Yeah. That, that was one thing that really has surprised me in my career. Yeah, absolutely. And I agree. It's, it's both humbling and then it's like, oh man. There was wonder, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So before we wrap, I, I was curious, any, any last tips you have for folks managing managers, because that can introduce a whole new level of complexity.

I. Yeah, I'm a big believer in having skip level meetings. Um, not all the time. You can't be that senior person who's micromanaging, but creating a regular cadence and getting it on calendar. So if it's twice a year, make sure that for the rest of the year those are booked out. If it's once a quarter, then it's on the calendar, whatever it might be, so that you build trust with the people that you're not getting that day-to-day, week to week, um, one-to-one time with.

And that trust will open up the door then for relevant feedback, for ensuring that you have your finger on the pulse, that you're also, you know, also hearing what the goals and aspirations are for your entire team in case there are ways that you can support that from where you sit. And so I think it helps drive that accountability for managers, but can be done in a way that isn't checking up on them, isn't nosing around for, for the inside scoop, but really about thinking about your entire team, uh, and your responsibility there.

Yeah, I love that example. And, and that's actually how I built a relationship with Albert Shum, who was the corporate vice president of Design at Microsoft who was on a previous show. And this was a way that you really get a pulse on the team. We have a whole conversation about, you know, the way that we work together and just by making time even at that executive level, and this gives you a pulse on, on a larger footprint of the organization, and this is where you can introduce some of that reverse mentoring as well.

Where leaders are really needing to have more of rep pulses. Maybe younger generations are maybe a little bit more scared to say what's really gone, but maybe a little less scared too, cuz they're a little bit more removed. So it also gives you an opportunity to get just a different perspective. So I love that example.

Anything you wanna leave our audience with? I think managers have to make lots of decisions and I've been reflecting on one way that I've been, a tool that I've been using recently to help me with decision making. Uh, and it's called 10, 10, 10. And so it's to reflect on how will you feel about this decision in 10 minutes, in 10 months and in 10 years.

And I think so many of the day to day, day decisions we make won't matter even in 10 months, much less 10 years. And then there are some really big decisions, right, that we might make about our own careers. Sometimes even hiring, uh, that could have implications 10 or more years out. You know, remembering when you need to bring those headlights of your attention up and look long term and really say, you know, what is, what is the really big picture here and how does that influence what decision I make?

And then what are the things I can just let go of, right. That they, they just don't require the. The level of attention, or I could, you know, might be overthinking a particular thing and saying, you know what? I'm not sure this'll matter even in 10 minutes, but it certainly isn't gonna matter in 10 months.

And trying to really, um, sh put my, my attention and my energy in the right places. And as a manager, I think, you know, there's a lot of stuff that gets escalated to you that you need to, to work through. And so hopefully, uh, for someone out there, 10, 10, 10 will be a useful model. Love that. Very helpful for deciding what to order in a restaurant to also true.

Yes. Well, I care after this. No, no. Thank you so much for being on this show. This was such a fun conversation. Always love talking with you about all these things. Oh, thank you so much for having me, and congratulations on such an awesome podcast. That's all I have for today. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Managing Made Simple Podcast where my goal is to demystify the job of people management so that together we can make the workplace somewhere everyone can thrive.

I always love to hear from you, so please reach out at liagarvin.com or message me on LinkedIn. See you next time.