The Space In Between Podcast

A Candid Conversation about Diversity Equity & Inclusion (DEI) with Sandy Mollett

• Leigh Morgan • Season 1 • Episode 22

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In this really interesting episode of "The Space In Between Podcast", host Leigh Morgan sat down with Sandy Mollett, a distinguished thought leader in Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI). Mollett, known for her extensive experience as a corporate executive and bridge builder across divides, shares her insights into the complex landscape of DEI in today’s often polarized world. Leigh and Sandy go deep, exploring the evolution of DEI, why the topic is so controversial and evokes strong reactions across the political spectrum.  They also consider how to actually cultivate connection with folks who are big supporters of DEI’s aspirations and those who think DEI is the worst thing in the world.  Join us for a great episode!

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Hello and welcome to the. Space in between podcast. I'm your host Lee Morgan. Again, this podcast is for listeners who are fed up. Up with the hyperpolarized nature of the world today. And who crave. Craves spaces where current events can be discussed in construct. enlightening and delightful ways. Let's get.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Today we are going to consider the current state of DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion and explore why DEI has become a lightning rod in the US Today our aim is to deepen awareness about why the controversy. What is working well and not working well with DEI? Efforts in policy realms and in organizational settings and in our communities. And as always, we will consider how folks with different views can find ways to connect across divides, and in doing so, begin to soften the polarization that many people experience on this often contentious topic to help us today. I am so excited to welcome Sandy mullet to the show. Sandy is a sought afterthought leader in this realm. She's a consultant, she's a community activist. And she brings a few decades of experience as a corporate executive in the financial technology sector. She is a strong advocate for effective diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts and policies, and she cares a lot about building high performing organizations that have vibrant cultures. Also very relevant for our conversation today. She is deeply respected by folks who embrace DEI and by folks who don't. Because she works with people who come from diverse backgrounds. She doesn't just work with folks who agree with her. So of course, she's a perfect guest for the space in between podcasts, and we get to tap her experience, her lessons learned, and get some practical tips on how to navigate this topic. Sandy, welcome to the Space in Between Podcast.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Hi Lee, and thank you so much for the opportunity to join you. What? What a kind intro. Gosh. Thank you.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Well that, uh, an easy one to give you are such a shining light and a bright light in the world, and so glad that you're joining us today. So, I shared a little bit about your impressive career and the work that you're doing now, and I've personally born witness to your passion for creating a society and organizations. We're all people, regardless of their backgrounds can thrive. Where does your passion come from?

Sandy Mollett-1:

I, you know, honestly, I think it's like most people, when they have a passion for something, it comes from their lived experience, right? so there's two big things in my past, in my life that really drove me to where I am today. One was through, decades in the financial technology or payments technology space, you know, uh. I was there 30 plus years, 27 of those years I was in the closet. Um, I had this robust personal life. I had lots of friends and, and it was able to be my authentic self. But I had convinced myself that being out at work would jeopardize my career, whether true or not, nobody ever said that to me. and I presented in a way that it was probably pretty easy to guess and, uh, you know, my sexual orientation and all those things. but it wasn't until honestly. We saw a change in our leadership, and that leadership really came in and said, this is the culture, this is the climate. This is how we will operate as a business. We will treat everyone with dignity and respect, and we want to embrace our differences. And that informs us from a productivity, an innovation, a client and customer perspective. And I'll tell you late, I didn't just come outta the closet, come busting outta the closet when, uh, I saw all of this happening and really, uh, became heavily involved in taking the organization through that process and was so privileged to be a part of that and learn through that experience. The other thing that happened, uh, I was traveling to Atlanta. I was living in Houston, Texas at the time. So I am southern,

Leigh Morgan-1:

There we go.

Sandy Mollett-1:

you slice and dice it. I was traveling to Atlanta where our corporate office was, and I was staying with some friends for the weekend. I just stayed over and we were hanging out and they were in a remote part of, you know, outside Atlanta. And I was standing in line checking out and like most grocery lines, you know, it's 10 people deep and you know, you're all anxious to get outta there. so two people in front of me was a rather large, uh, white man, and then between us was a black woman. And so, as you know, time is going on and we're all getting anxious, right? And so we're getting tighter and tighter as people do. You know, you start getting closer and closer'cause you start getting more and more anxious. And so you're almost on top of each other trying to get to the checkout the woman in front of me. Pressed against the man in front of her accidentally. He whipped around, used horrible, derogatory racial slurs, told her to back up. And in that momently, I didn't do anything. I think I froze was shocked at what I was seeing, wasn't quite sure how to react to that. And this is years and years ago. got out to the parking lot and I mean, I, I felt physically sick about it and I was sick. That what I witnessed my inability to do anything or say anything, and I swore in that moment, I would never be complacent in a situation like that again. So I think all of these coming together, my own personal experience as well as witnessing. This type of reaction in our communities really drove me to a space where I wanted to make a difference and help organizations specifically make a difference. So that's where I am today. That's how I got here.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Well, two powerful stories. One, in your organization of the, the power of new leadership. Who sets a expectation for a cul a, a culture where all employees can thrive? I would say probably more than they did before. Right. And I would guess there's a reason new leadership comes in. They want better outcomes in terms of growth,

Sandy Mollett-1:

That's right.

Leigh Morgan-1:

in terms of, profitability, competitiveness. Right. And so, um, inviting.

Sandy Mollett-1:

a proven model, right? They

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

They knew having that type of climate and culture inside a large enterprise organization would drive innovation, productivity, shareholder value, all the things, right? And I think on top of that, it was seeing someone that looked like you in leadership and how extremely important that was in helping us find our footing and wanting to do better and grow inside the organization because we saw that it was achievable. We saw some people that looked like us in those roles.

Leigh Morgan-1:

That story of seeing people in higher up positions, uh, whatever that might be in an organization or elected officials or whatever. That's such a common theme that I hear, and I think that cuts across many different groups and identities, right, of having a role model that you can associate with. No one's the same, right? You and I are both white women and we're different and yay. Imagine that. And we're both gay and we're different and we have different stories. But there is something about, that affiliation. And if someone else can do it, maybe I can I think many of us, really care about treating everyone with dignity and respect. When you, find race or ethnic or religious based or, sexual orientation, whatever, and you tag that to their identity that you make up or you actually experience it. It can be so rattling.

Sandy Mollett-1:

It can.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Um, and, and you reacted by saying, I don't wanna, I wanna figure out how not to freeze up in the future. Right? And

Sandy Mollett-1:

right.

Leigh Morgan-1:

so.

Sandy Mollett-1:

I need to be part of this solution and not allow this to happen in our communities.

Leigh Morgan-1:

You know, that experience as hard as it was for you, harder for the person receiving by a long shot.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Oh, yeah,

Leigh Morgan-1:

I mean, you can't really compare it. And the fact that this launched you into your work, which I, which I'd love to dive into now, um, first thing I do often with guests is set a foundation, of what's the topic we're talking about? I think there's a lot of assumptions and misunderstandings about DEI, I'd love it if you could describe ebb and flow of what we might think of as DEI efforts

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan-1:

10 years. And there may be some things prior to the last 10 years that led us. To where we are, but how would you set the table for us?

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yeah. And, and I'll, and I'll tell you, you know, coining the term DEI has happened over time. We didn't always call it DEI, but we did know that we had situations where I. Parts of our community, especially those who were historically excluded and underrepresented, didn't have equal opportunity, especially in the workforce, There was systemic complications that pro prevented folks from really achieving those goals. Especially back when we were talking about race. And I'm gonna go even further back for you.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yes.

Sandy Mollett-1:

you think about the 1920s and you had women's rights, think about how far back we have to go in order to understand kind of this, acknowledging that some of us don't have all the rights as the rest of us, right? whether you were a woman or a man, men had the ability to buy land and, you know, have bank accounts and credit cards. Women did not. We saw in the forties, uh, that they desegregated the armed forces. You know, Truman said, Nope, we're gonna have the Civil Rights Act and we're gonna desegregate our, our troops in the sixties. Lots of affirmative action, right?

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

historical moments from a race perspective in women's workplace equality in the sixties, that was some hopping time, We saw the feminist movement. We saw rehabilitation acts. That was the one that preceded the American Disabilities Act

Leigh Morgan-1:

Okay.

Sandy Mollett-1:

people with disabilities. So when we think about who have historically been underrepresented, know, we have to think about. People with disabilities, women people of color, L-G-B-T-Q communities. I mean, we can go on and on and on and on. the eighties, um, that was really, really when we started recognizing the LGBTQ plus community. And that's when we also saw the height of the, uh, AIDS epidemic and HIV. So all of these things colliding we saw sexual harassment, uh, prohibited in the workplace. In the eighties, two thousands, we saw, started seeing, okay, now we need to start teaching people about this, acknowledge all these things are happening. There's some laws and legislation that are happening to try to prevent, uh, discrimination. Some

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

than others, but we need to teach people what all this means.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Mm-hmm.

Sandy Mollett-1:

bias? What is unconscious bias? What does it mean to be inclusive? So all those things,

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Why is it that we're doing all these things and do we really have systemic issues? And what does it mean? You hear things like race taxes because with of a certain race have to have better qualifications for a role than someone else. You know, you have, you know, gender, uh, taxes. Someone of a certain gender has to have more qualifications for the same role than someone else.

Leigh Morgan-1:

I ask you, can I ask you a quick question about that?

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan-1:

you, you'd use the word tax, like, uh, for listeners, it's not literally a, a, a financial tax, although that's a.

Sandy Mollett-1:

about tariffs.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah, we, boy, that's another show, isn't it? But I think what you're getting at, is that we wouldn't have had the 19 70 64 Civil Rights Act. We wouldn't have had some of these policies unless there was some recognition in society,

Sandy Mollett-1:

Absolutely.

Leigh Morgan-1:

organizational settings and or in legislative bodies, that there's not a mythical equal starting place like, uh, for everyone. And so we've seen a lot of research,

Sandy Mollett-1:

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan-1:

about people and their names. If you have a name that, people might associate as a quote, black sounding name, or a name that might be stereotyped as a Jewish. Last name, or, someone from the Middle East. We know through research that those people tend to get rated lower. Their resumes tend, to be seen as, less impressive than those who have dominant male gender. Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

you know, appropriate names, all the things,

Leigh Morgan-1:

So you're reminding us that this happens every day and we've had some milestones start history that to try to address this and then we kinda move into this DEI era. Did I get that right?

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yeah, that's exactly right. And, it's been kind of this sequence of events and a building on as we learn more and we educate ourselves, we start having more action around it. We start trying to do things that almost, you know, put us on equal footing. and it, it's a tall order in all honesty. You know, in the, in the 2000 tens, we had the Me Too movement, right? We had marriage equality, man, that was.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

amazing time. In the twenties after the killing of George Floyd, we saw DEI really taking off, right? We saw organizations embracing this appro, approach to diversity and inclusion and representation inside organizations. And I you kind of mentioned was there something that was well, something that wasn't going well? You know, why are we here on DEI? And I'll tell you, those organizations that really understood. The importance of bringing different lived experiences and different perspectives to the table to be more innovative, to increase productivity. It translated the business cases all over the place to shareholder value. There were those organizations that were performative, right? We can, we can't ignore the fact that happened, that they really were not about creating these environments and these cultures and these climates of inclusion, it was performative. It was for show because they knew that, it would attract, talent and they wanted to make shareholders happy, and they had vendors who were saying. you have a diverse and inclusive environment? I mean, businesses were asking each other to prove it. And so a lot of organizations unfortunately, weren't walking the talk.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

others that just did it wrong.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

it meant quotas. They thought it meant like, I have to have a certain number of black people at the table and a certain number of queer people at the table, and women and all the things, and I think they misinterpreted the spirit of what we were trying to achieve when we talk about DEI. So it's become almost demonized

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah. And we we're seeing a lot of that these days, right? Of the, policies out of the administration of, if you use certain words, including women, by the way, I mean science, and if women is included in a grant to the NIH, it gets flagged.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan-1:

For potential defunding, uh, or race or ethnicity or anything. It's, it's so, it's so big, you know, big strong feelings. We have, that's what we do. We have strong feelings here and we try not to other, because we know,

Sandy Mollett-1:

That's right.

Leigh Morgan-1:

that's not helpful. But there is a lot of sparkies, uh, around DEI and I, I'd love to dive in a little bit on,, effective DEI practices, right? Because you described a positive experience you had, in your organization. I've been in a number of organizations as well where we've done some good things and some things that just really weren't effective. And I'd love to highlight specific things that you've seen done well, practices, policies, behaviors. Give us a couple of examples.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yeah, I, I think organizations that have done it well and intentional have really taken a hard look at their own internal policies. how they present themselves to the public. And when we talk about policies and processes, we look at as easy as gender coding job. When we say this position requires this type of demeanor, we often gender code job openings, right? So naturally as human beings, we look at those and go, oh, they're not looking for somebody who's great at collaboration and, you know, motivating and inspiring teams. They're looking for someone who is hard charging rough and can deal with high stress moments. And you know, and all of those leads you to think about who should be in that role. Who are they actually talking to? I had a lot of organizations during my consulting saying, anybody is welcome to apply every time they had a job opening. We are inclusive. But at the same time, there was this unconscious bias that said if I had a woman's, and I'm just gonna make up examples here'cause I don't wanna throw anybody under the bus. I had a resume that came in, it looked like it was from a woman or had a name that I couldn't pronounce, or they used pronouns in their resume, was this whole unconscious bias that kicked in. It may not be con There was conscious right bias, but it may not be aware that were, that went into the no pile immediately without even looking at qualifications. Or if I saw someone's resume come in, that did tap into my unconscious bias. I might be looking for qualifications above and beyond.

Leigh Morgan-1:

So you get a woman, someone is a woman's name or name of someone from a different culture. You are sitting there, Sandy, or me saying, okay, here's a candidate. I'm gonna look at it. And there may be moments where we just look through it and we don't e the name and ethnic or background. We don't associate it. I think what you're suggesting this is unconscious bias is that it's really hard for us not to have somewhere in the back of our minds

Sandy Mollett-1:

right.

Leigh Morgan-1:

we have. We might be questioning, well did, did she get two degrees? Uh, or longer experience where a guy John Doe or John Smith comes through, we might not question that. And, I think that's what you're getting at

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yeah. Organizations that have embraced doing it well, as we'll call it,

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

really have put in processes that help us overcome those unconscious bias, right?

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah,

Sandy Mollett-1:

That we have ways of looking and that we have different perspectives looking at resumes as they're coming in, and not just one homogenous, approach to that,

Leigh Morgan-1:

yeah,

Sandy Mollett-1:

we're always comfortable with the people that look like us, think like us, have gone to the same school as us, you know, came from the same state, town, whatever

Leigh Morgan-1:

yeah, yeah,

Sandy Mollett-1:

We're attracted to those people because we have something in common with them.

Leigh Morgan-1:

yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

So we need processes and systems in place that help us overcome those biases,

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

even the unconscious ones. To make sure we're looking at candidates on their qualifications and not their identity. Does that make sense?

Leigh Morgan-1:

It makes sense to me. And, I'm aware also that it is illegal to discriminate

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan-1:

based on race, your gender, et cetera. It's just illegal, right? So any, uh, well intended company of which most are well intended, we're not looking to discriminate and we're not also looking to give favoritism just because you come from a underrepresented group, I think that's a mythology is, and we're hearing it a lot today of if you think about DEI or bring this sort of a tool to weed out unconscious bias, you are actually, um, showing favoritism in a way against a certain group, which would be any non underrepresented. That's out there. Um, but I think it's, and we can't use race as a factor in admissions to colleges now.'cause we had a Supreme Court ruling a few years ago. So, so I just want people, people think there's all these advantages that people get. I think what you are getting at is a practice that you're familiar with in your organizations and others that actually helps assess the best talent

Sandy Mollett-1:

That's

Leigh Morgan-1:

any given role.

Sandy Mollett-1:

That's right. It's not about lowering the bar. we hear a lot of rhetoric out there about what is DEI and a lot of folks are saying it's about lowering the bar, not having the skill that we should have in order to accommodate someone who has been historically excluded or underrepresented, often people who have disabilities, people of various races, L-G-B-T-Q, community. It is not about l debar honestly, I have not seen any organization in my work that describes DEI as having a lower expectation of the employee in order to bring in quote, unquote diverse talent. If someone is doing that, let's get'em. Some coaches, some counseling, some

Leigh Morgan-1:

They need to call you. They need to call you. Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

But, but, it's, it, it's not a common thing that I have seen.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

around the processes and processes having equitable opportunity inside your organization and attracting the best talent and meeting talent where they are. In all honesty, when we say, we put a, you know, job requisition out there and anyone's welcome to, uh, apply. Well, there's accessibility, challenges, whether you're a person with disability, uh, there is. Uh, a comfort and safety, uh, component that if I'm posting that opening in a place that is typically white, cis people, um, I'm probably as a woman or a person of color or whatever, not going to be looking there for a job.

Leigh Morgan-1:

And so can I stop you? You used a word cis.

Sandy Mollett-1:

yeah,

Leigh Morgan-1:

When you say that, what do you mean? Just to, that's just one word that I think trips people up or can.

Sandy Mollett-1:

yeah. So, you know, today's environment, we think, uh, cisgender and transgender. Okay.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Okay.

Sandy Mollett-1:

And cisgender essentially means that you identify as the sex you were assigned at birth.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Okay.

Sandy Mollett-1:

the doctor slapped me on the butt and said, it's a girl.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yay.

Sandy Mollett-1:

I identify woman. Okay. Or slapped you on the butt and said, congratulations. Here's a cigar. It's a boy. the person identifies as male.

Leigh Morgan-1:

So the person grows up and at some point in their life, they're like, wow, I really identify as the opposite gender, even though I was born my literal sex, male, female sex and women. That's, yeah. That's transgender people, right? Think thank you. Thank you for part making time And cis is spelled CIS just in case. Alright, so sister. Um,

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yes.

Leigh Morgan-1:

There's an article in the New York Times today, tracking this, retrenchment, I would use the word retrenchment of. Formal policies in the corporate sector, that say they support diversity, equity, inclusion, Because it gets us better profitability, better growth, better innovation, better efficiency, because diverse perspectives brought to a hard problem, you tend to get better outcomes. We've seen a drop off. I think we had about 90% of publicly traded companies would have statements, right? whether they do it well or not, that's another issue. And now we have maybe 60%

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yeah, it's

Leigh Morgan-1:

well,

Sandy Mollett-1:

about 60%,

Leigh Morgan-1:

this is just in the last few months, I think, or the last year.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah. And so one might say, look, if you, if it doesn't really matter, please don't say it matters. Mm-hmm. Okay. A little truth in lending is, is never bad.

Sandy Mollett-1:

right.

Leigh Morgan-1:

You could also say, well, they're responding to prevailing, sentiment from the new administration, which is, hostile and basically equating DEI to lowering standards. Right? And so if you're a big company and you have federal contracts or you don't wanna attract the ire of the administration and you're worried about the survival of your company, and you might change, and, and that doesn't feel really good to a lot of people. What sense do you make of all this.

Sandy Mollett-1:

I, you know, I, I think you, you, you headed down the right direction is, you know, if I'm an organization that is dependent on government contracts, that that is a large portion of my income and there is whether conditional, uh, statements of contracting, there is new legislation about DEI, whatever the case they're feeling, the pressure of saying I have a responsibility to my shareholders. I. We're here to make business. That's why companies exist. And if we're in jeopardy of losing these government contracts, we have to play ball here. Now some will choose to completely roll that back, eliminate their DEI staff, and come what may, so we know the business case for DEI. We've seen it over and over again. We've talked about the innovation. We've talked about shareholder value, productivity, all the things. So they're gonna throw that out and they're gonna keep their fingers crossed because they've got to keep these government contracts. The other mode is going to be, there's two more. One is going to be, I hear you. I'm going to appear to be compliant with the current administration. I'm not gonna call it DEI. We are still an environment and climate of inclusive opportunity no matter who you are in the organization. And

Leigh Morgan-1:

Because?

Sandy Mollett-1:

good for business.

Leigh Morgan-1:

organizations see it in their best profitable interests.

Sandy Mollett-1:

That's right. We know it's in our best interest. So we're, we'll stop calling it all the things. the people that are currently doing the work and we're just gonna do it on the dl, if you will. Right? And then there's those organizations and we know'em, and they are standing tall and standing proud and saying, we are sticking to our core principles. DEI is good for us, good for our communities, and good for our business. And we are doubling down and we are being very vocal and visible about it. So you have those three scenarios, roll completely back, be totally compliant. Do it on the dl. Or stand tall and stay committed.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah, that's a,

Sandy Mollett-1:

we're saying.

Leigh Morgan-1:

yeah, that's a helpful framework. And you know, I'm involved in organizations as you are, right, that are.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan-1:

up, uh, none of the organizations I'm involved in, pick number one in part because the organizations really want the best outcomes, the best innovation, really wanna fulfill their mission and impact, um, understand that, uh, the demographics of our workforce, the demographics of their customer base, of their partners, uh, has been changing. And we need to source and maintain the best talent and find ways to harness the upside potential of diverse perspectives. And,

Sandy Mollett-1:

right.

Leigh Morgan-1:

you know, I'll share one, uh, organization that I'm, I'm very honored to be a part of, which is Arizona State University. I got to know, president Michael Crow when I was working at the, um, Nero Foundation. He was on our board. Just an impressive, impressive visionary. And he is been there for two decades. I had a little stint as a leader at, the University of California, San Francisco. And I could tell you of all institutions, academic institutions, especially public sector, where you tend not to have these big endowments,

Sandy Mollett-1:

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan-1:

It's really hard to change. These are large bureaucracies and faculty. If they get grants, they're like, I got my grant. I don't need to pay attention to you, miss or Mr. President,'cause I already got my money. So it's like hurting cats. Well, president Crow from the very get go, he said, look, I think for us to be our best selves, we need to throw open the doors to education. And we need to ensure that, qualified students at scale can get into Arizona State, get a great education, and that we care about them and the communities we're a part of. If we do that, we are going to have a diverse student body because we're gonna throw open the doors, not just to the best students, which tend to be ones from higher income settings, et cetera. And so you tend to have less racial diversity, et cetera. So he is done that for 2 23 years now. And you know what? They don't say DI at asu. They don't talk about it. They just do it

Sandy Mollett-1:

Do it, do

Leigh Morgan-1:

because it's their charter. It's how they think about educating the masses in a high quality way and doing amazing research. It's really floored me, Sandy, to see what they're doing, because I'm on campus and

Sandy Mollett-1:

that is.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Oh, and I'm, and I'm learning a lot. Right, because you don't. I think this is the interesting thing. I don't think we need to say DEI. It became a, a phrase, diversity, equity, inclusion, which I like. I have an affinity.

Sandy Mollett-1:

acronyms.

Leigh Morgan-1:

People have acronyms and so I'm of it if it leads to better outcomes, yay. I just think there's some examples like what a SU have been doing now for two decades.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yeah,

Leigh Morgan-1:

You know, you get better outcomes. And I think that's what you said at the very top of like, you got involved at First Data where you worked

Sandy Mollett-1:

You right.

Leigh Morgan-1:

the company needed to be transformed. So they brought in new leadership and they said, wow, I actually think we have a great employee base, but they're underutilized.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Absolutely. And I, I think you're spot on as you know. We like to name things, especially in corporate environments, right? We like, it's gotta have a name. Every project has a name. We love acronyms.'cause you know, we gotta make it short and pithy. So, you know, to your point, DEI, we don't have to call it DEI, it's about being inclusive, attracting the best talent, and having the environment to do that and having opportunity to grow and thrive inside those organizations. And knowing that those opportunities exist for all of us, not just some of us.

Leigh Morgan-1:

That's so well put. And I have, uh, one question for you and then we'll, we'll shift to how do we bridge divides when people might not share some of the views that you've expressed or I have. So the question is. How do you respond to criticism of DEI efforts now that DEI is just a different form of favoritism

Sandy Mollett-1:

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan-1:

to what we might call underrepresented groups or certain identities. Because you might have some, some white guy in the middle of the country who says, don't tell me I have some privilege based on my race. I was just laid off. And you're telling me that because of my demographic, we need to focus on underrepresented. I want your views on this because I think this is a, a belief. That, many people might, reasonably have.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yeah, I

Leigh Morgan-1:

and if that's the case, then we might care about listening and understanding that criticism. So what are your thoughts?

Sandy Mollett-1:

You know, just as, just as we talked about, what it's not is lowering the bar, bar and making exceptions for people.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yes.

Sandy Mollett-1:

not about favoritism, It's not about quotas. It's not about favoritism. And this is where, if that has happened, and I'm not denying that that has happened, That is their reality. And, and by the way, nothing against. Straight white guys. I love straight white guys and they have something very important to share with us as far as how do we get this right? Because we, I don't think we've gotten it right. And so I think it's important for us to listen to them

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

understand where we're not getting it and saying, is it favoritism? Are we unconsciously, I'm getting back to this unconscious component of this. Are we over-indexing saying, wait, I've gone too far with this. This is not an either or. This is an and.

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Right? And it's creating that complimentary group of people that can come to be together and really give different perspectives, insight. It's not about cutting another. Perspective and lived experience and insight, It's about being inclusive of, that's where I think, you know, organizations may get it wrong if, and, and I, again, not denying that that actually happens. I'm sure it does, I think we've gotta think of it in the end terms.

Leigh Morgan-1:

I like, I like your framing of that because it creates some spaciousness

Sandy Mollett-1:

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan-1:

for understanding and curiosity. And, I do think some organizations get it wrong and you'll hear people saying, we went overboard. I, I get concerned because people get stuck on you have one bad experience

Sandy Mollett-1:

Right.

Leigh Morgan-1:

And then, then there's this loop of, because I had that one bad experience, anything related to DEI has got to be tainted and bad.

Sandy Mollett-1:

it's the evil, right? And this

Leigh Morgan-1:

yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

you know, it's why I got fired or laid off or

Leigh Morgan-1:

Right. Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

not denying someone's truth, but I think that is not the norm

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

and that it is this, and, and I think that's easy to blame in all honesty

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah,

Sandy Mollett-1:

because of DEI, I didn't get X, Y, Z when. of DEI and we can call it anything we

Leigh Morgan-1:

yeah,

Sandy Mollett-1:

it. of having inclusive opportunities inside our organizations, had a little stiffer competition. You know,

Leigh Morgan-1:

maybe. Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

people at the table and more folks qualified for this opportunity. And it wasn't just me and I was not a shoe in.

Leigh Morgan-1:

I think that's really true. I do also just wanna lift up that, there also is a substrate of fear I hear from colleagues in a lot of different settings of, oh no, I'm gonna use the wrong word.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan-1:

I'm gonna use the wrong pronoun. Um, I'm a well intended, thoughtful person, but ooh, I got it wrong. And, somebody might react by, blaming and shaming me. I think in organizations that are, are not doing DEI, well, they tolerate blame and shame. When we as humans, we just mess up. Sometimes I mess up maybe more than other people.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan-1:

I think we want cultures that aren't blame and shame because that's the shadow side, I think around DEI that I think is true. we want accountability. We wanna treat people how they wanna be treated. And it's normal to put your foot in the do dup pile, as I say.

Sandy Mollett-1:

I, I think just, just yes to everything you said, and we all want to be treated with respect and to people recognize our identities, our, I identities, our. Who we are, and I want you to respect who I am and recognize who I am. And to your point, most people are well intentioned. There are those that refuse to acknowledge someone's identity correctly, et cetera. But most people, well, intention, and I think giving grace when folks make mistakes is absolutely key. So respecting someone's identity doing our best

Leigh Morgan-1:

Yeah.

Sandy Mollett-1:

to call them by their correct name, call them by their correct pronouns. You know, all the things that are important to us as human beings, But when somebody messes up, give a little grace to that.

Leigh Morgan-1:

That's a beautiful segue as I ask you, a last question here.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan-1:

You are a walking, talking model, bridging device, you offer that grace, I feel you, this way. You have that reputation. That's why you're very effective in your work. You offer that to everyone. not just for the underrepresented folks. I know that's a core value for you. What would be one or two kernels of advice for listeners

Sandy Mollett-1:

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan-1:

who want to most often walk with that grace? Offer? Grace and who, like any normal person might get upset, if they're treated poorly or they had a bad experience. Someone else was hired and I thought I was better qualified. What advice to bridge divides for people who have diverse views on this very topic?

Sandy Mollett-1:

You know, I, I think communication and connection. You know, you talk about connection a lot on this show, it is willingness to sit down and have the conversation to when someone tells you their story, believe them. No gaslighting, right? And it's easy for us to interpret someone else's experience or you know, accept or deny what happened to them or their perspective of the events. When someone tells you their story, believe them

Leigh Morgan-1:

Hmm.

Sandy Mollett-1:

you in turn share your story and believe them. Without judgment, without question. It is respect and understanding and acknowledging that we are all humans and we're trying to survive and thrive in this right now, chaotic and confusing country. And I think if we acknowledge that, we all wanna feel seen, valued. I. And respected. We'll thrive. We'll lift each other up. And when I think about that, I think about us having the confidence in ourselves, So comfortable in our own shoes. The confidence in ourselves to encourage and lift up other people, right? we know we can stand together. We don't always have to agree, but we treat each other with respect and dignity and grace when we don't. Does that make sense?

Leigh Morgan-1:

It makes a lot of sense. It's very powerful. Very powerful to hear you say that. And I'm struck by the consistency of this theme that you've articulated about telling our stories, listening to our stories, believing stories.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Right?

Leigh Morgan-1:

I think the trick is, is that we need to have self-awareness of sometimes I'm more capable of that than others,

Sandy Mollett-1:

Yes.

Leigh Morgan-1:

and that's okay when I'm not capable of that. it's important to say not now. Not right now. I don't quite have that grace to you who has a, who has a different view than me.

Sandy Mollett-1:

I, I, I'm in my feelings right now and yeah. I need to make this about me I'm gonna come back to the table and I want to have this conversation and share this moment with you.

Leigh Morgan-1:

And it's the coming back

Sandy Mollett-1:

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan-1:

that I think will get all of us through this hyperpolarized time because that table of grace, I think it's infinitely expansive and it's calling all of us to it. So Sandy, thank you for sharing some amazing wisdom and insights about DEI and about. The cultural implications. I'm grateful for you and making time for the space in between. What a fantastic conversation.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Thank you, Lee. I really appreciate the time and just everyone, let's love and listen to each other.

Leigh Morgan-1:

That's the way to end the show. Thank you very much.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Thank you.

Leigh Morgan-1:

bye for now.

Sandy Mollett-1:

Bye-bye.

People on this episode

Contributor

Lakshmi Nidamarthi

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Leigh Morgan

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Contributor

The Honorable Satana Deberry

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