An Oath to the Constitution: Perspectives from a Female Attack Helicopter Pilot

In light of recent controversy about the Dept. of Defense leaders & other cabinet members conducting classified war planning in an unsecure text app #SignalGate - I'm reposting a powerful episode of The Space In Between Podcast  that showcases the very best of our armed forces and integrity-based leadership. I speak with retired Major Hartleigh Caine about her experience in the Army and what it means to take an oath to support the Constitution in a world that can often feel divisive and lacking unity. Major Caine, an Apache attack helicopter pilot and decorated combat veteran, shares her remarkable journey from West Point to Iraq and Afghanistan, along with the many lessons she has learned about bringing men and women from diverse backgrounds together in highly stressful and often dangerous circumstances. She also discusses navigating her role as one of the very few female commanders and pilots in two wartime settings and shares rationale for her belief that the military’s oath and mission-based orientation will continue to transcend the political divides that too often dominate today’s culture.

Transcript

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Hello and welcome to the. Space in between podcast. I'm your host Lee Morgan. Again, this podcast is for listeners who are fed up. Up with the hyperpolarized nature of the world today. And who crave. Craves spaces where current events can be discussed in construct. enlightening and delightful ways. Let's get. Today's podcast focuses on military service in an extraordinarily complex time. As we get closer to the January presidential transition, there's a lot of uncertainty about what is to come. Part of that uncertainty relates to the military and its evolving role globally and here in the U. S. We will explore the enduring qualities of military service on today's podcast and capture lessons learned from a decorated combat veteran, army company commander, and major Hartley Cain. Major Cain will share lessons she learned as an Apache attack helicopter pilot and company leader in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Major Kane is a proud West Point graduate. She served 13 years in the Army and is a passionate advocate for service members and veterans everywhere. She is a trailblazer and today is a leadership coach for tech executives. She has strong views about the role of the military, and what it means to take an oath to serve the Constitution. She also knows a thing or two about bringing people together across many dimensions of difference. Major Cain, welcome to the Space in Between podcast. Thank you. Love being here with you, Lee. Glad to have you. May I call you Hartley? Sure. Great. Thank you. Hartley, I shared a little bit about your very distinguished career, but what else do you want listeners to know about your background and passion for military service? Thank you for asking. I think I joined the military like some other people that have joined without a lot of context about what I was going into. I grew up in Washington state and left and went to, first New Jersey, New York, Alabama, Texas really went all around and had incredible opportunity to serve, to meet people from around the U S and the world. And I would love people to hear some about that experience and learn, you know, learn more, maybe be curious themselves about service. Well, I'm very curious myself. And one quick question. Did you, as a youngster and going up through high school, did you know you wanted to go into the service? I think there was some signs there, but I would not say that I knew I did a report on people from my family who had served and mostly in World War II for eighth grade, but that didn't, you know, that didn't mean that then I was going to serve and my parents and my sister were all in the Peace Corps, so I didn't have that direct line of. military service. I had a direct line of service. I think my parents had that mindset of service and I happened to choose the military, whereas my sister chose the Peace Corps. Oh, okay. So service runs deep in your, with your sibling as well. And was there one moment where you just knew you wanted to join the military? Was there like one experience, an epiphany moment, or was it a gradual thing? I remember being in the guidance counselor's office and I saw a picture. Of, you know, soldiers in uniform, they were carrying the colors of the United States. They were on a parade field. It was so majestic. And it had this symbolism that really spoke to me. And really from that moment forward, I pictured myself being a part of that. And that's what started this. Dogged determination that I was going to get in somehow. Determination. I've seen that. I love that. So, just to level set, because my sense is most listeners haven't served in the military. I think plus or minus 6 percent of folks in the U S actually have served maybe more veterans over time. There's lots of roles. There's huge diversity within the ranks of. the service branches and the Coast Guard. Could you paint a picture of your role as a company commander, as an attack helicopter pilot, as a major? You commanded a lot of troops. You were in two wartime theaters, what you want us to know about the military and, what's an, that was an average week, like for you, let's say in Afghanistan. There's a lot there that I definitely want to share. So starting with my role, I, after graduating from West Point, I had to go to flight school. So I spent a lot of time in flight training, and then that allowed me to not just lead troops, but also to be, a helicopter pilot and Later on, once I got more training, an air mission commander. So those, those couple of steps kind of set the stage. And when you first enter West Point or you first enter some type of officer commissioning source, they spend years preparing you to be a leader, a leader of other Americans. And they really concentrate a lot of that training time on hands on leadership. So it's not. Let me open up a book that tells you how to be a leader. It's more go out and practice leading, standing in front of others, receiving feedback right away. Um, and then growing from all those experiences and supporting other people as they grow through those experiences in an effort, kind of a lifelong journey to become the best leader you can be. So, That was my role, was, was being a leader of, you know, aviators, of, mechanics, um, predominantly in aviation, although I did serve in some other units, along the way, kind of taking a page out of what's a week like in a combat zone. It is a struggle. It is not an easy place to live. There's a lot of. Lowes, and I would say the people around you kind of bring the highs. So it's, typically working every single day. You rarely get more than maybe a few hours off to do your laundry. The environmental conditions are very harsh. In Iraq, it would get up to 140 degrees Fahrenheit, and it's a very muggy place, especially in the summer. Becomes winter. It'll get down to below 100 degrees and you will find yourself shivering at 100 degrees because that temperature change. So just learning how to be in a completely different environment where you don't have buildings, where you don't have any amenities is, is a struggle. And then you kind of layer upon that. Now let's go, you know, take a mission forward. Let's go protect us interest. Let's guard a border. Let's perform that mission. And then kind of adding onto that. The challenges of combat. So all those things come together in a given week as the difficult parts, the high points is this deep sense of camaraderie with people that you honestly could have next to nothing in common with, you're from every corner of the U S. Some people are even, born overseas and decided to serve as part of their journey, in becoming Americans. you get together and you share these shared sufferings, these really difficult times. And that creates this bond where you, you laugh together. You, you create a big group of people and you all go eat together. Those are all the high points, is all the stories you learn and the jokes you tell. Ah, that's, that's amazing and that's the sort of thing that, I'm a big fan of documentaries and actually military documentaries and just, to hear you speak, there's no way watching as a civilian, on TV, to get a sense, a real sense of what you're saying, at least that's what I'm picking up right now, of a group of people, diverse people. Asked to do really, hard things under really stressful conditions with the threat of harm and then also doing things in war like potentially harming your enemies, right, that the constellation of that, I'm struck by the highs, of the camaraderie is where the brightness, the bright spots are. I don't know if that's the right word, uh, word to, to use. And can you say a little bit about how diverse the military is? I mean, you talked about your company that you commanded, but I want listeners to really understand across all the service branches, how diverse the military really is. I mean, I'm most familiar with the army. I think we should just talk about diversity and all of its flavors and how it comes when you join. So, many people experience a great sense of diversity when they leave their homes as a young 18 year old. but the The military provides something that's pretty unique in that the people within it are from all over the United States. And so even though about 40%, sometimes higher than that can be from the South, it's all over the South. And it's from so many different backgrounds that people all come together and you all get. Scrambled, if you will, into these jobs and into then duty stations and assignments. And so you find yourself meeting people that, I don't think you would have ever met or come across in. Any other kind of walk. some interesting, facts. The army has a really high percentage of people who identify as African Americans, Asian Pacific Islanders, far more than the population of the United States or of the workforce and for Women, it's even higher. Women have been much lower than 20 percent of the, of the, services. And for African American women is a disproportionate number of the workforce are in the military. So when you go off to something like basic training, half the women in basic training will be white and the other half will be either African American or Hispanic or Asian Pacific Islander, you know, so you have a very diverse group. And I think that's, an experience that I hope a lot of other people reach out and seek that kind of diversity in their young lives as young adults joining the workforce. That much must have a big impact on. the confidence that people have and I'll say my, nephew enlisted in the Navy and he served four years. So thank you, Brandon, for that. he's joined you as a veteran now. He spoke so much about the diversity that he encountered. Also, and it has really shaped who he is. And he's talked a lot about how it's impacted how well he's able to listen and consider perspectives that are different than his own. So I think that's similar. And I want to follow up on this notion. Of you as as a trailblazer is one of the very few women. I'm certain women majors in the army in wartime wartime and aviation. That's a very distinguished rank. and I think only about 3 percent of attack, helicopter pilots are women. Maybe fewer when you came out of pilot aviation training in 2001, when we spoke recently, you said something that really struck with me and I'll quote, I learned how to live as a bridging person during your time of service. Can you say more about that as a, as a woman, as a pilot you were, one of very few. And you were in charge. How did you navigate that? I didn't always navigate it well. It's not a, it's not a skill. I think many of us Walked out of our homes and high schools having. But I think that the military places a lot of emphasis on being effective as a team. And so you have to figure out how you're gonna be effective as a part of that team, because there really isn't. A success that comes from an individual action as part of the military. So I think what I had to learn again, through a lot of rich feedback was what were those moments where I was pulling people together and creating the common sense of purpose? And what were those moments where, people weren't bought in? To what was happening. I think there's a misconception in the military that it's all just giving orders and people have to follow. And, um, there might be moments where that is more true than in the civilian workforce, but it's not a universal. Experience of somebody in charge. You have to learn how to create the purpose that people need to deeply feel in order to do things that really put themselves either out physically or, even worse, like in harm's way or putting other people in challenging situations. So that need to become part of the team to become woven into the fabric and not be other or try to, Being an individual was really important and I think that it's part of what I carry with me today. Part of what, you know, I carry with me today is that skill that I had to develop, within the ranks. Can you give us an example of how you Became woven into the fabric, right? I mean, that was your job to lead you to earn respect, maintain that credibility as a leader. It's not all I say, jump and you jump like this is a really stressful setting and to be effective as a leader, you have to have earned respect, maintain it, et cetera. Was there. Any situation where you remember thinking, okay, there's 500 men and me, and I need to figure out how to bond and become a part of this fabric because it serves your mission and your ability to do your job well, is there anything that stands out or a memory that you have? Yeah, I think there's two sides of the coin. There's one side. That's we have a job to do. We have a purpose of why we're here. And I, I want to start there, but then I also want to go to the other side, the high points, the camaraderie. How did you become part of that and have that for your experience as well? Because it's just too hard. To do it alone and you have to find both sides of your capability on so starting with the mission side early on, it was a platoon sergeant told me you have, you've got to ask people their opinion. Hey, what do you think we should do? You might already have a hypothesis, but you need to put that in the bottom of your basket and start to fill it with what other people really think ought to be done in a situation. In almost every decision, there is always time. To gather more opinions and that will create one, a better mission, a better outcome. But, two, it'll create their sense of what are we dealing with? What's the purpose, you know, not allowing people to sit on the sidelines and just be told they don't want that. But, but as a leader, you have to reach out and invite. Folks. And I remember, doing practice drills, How are you, how are you going to do a particular mission? And the more people standing up at the board describing ideas, the better the outcome would be in that, in that practice mission. And the more sense of like actually being the leader, getting all those people to put their input forward and then getting them to finger point, which is the best idea and route and have some. Buy in. So on the mission side, the, the purpose, the creating of what we're going to do, how we're going to do it, how we're going to do it best, how to pull people into that conversation was kind of my slowed, education and how to being on the bridging side when there was no mission going on and it was time to put our feet up on a cardboard box and. Eat, laugh and wait for the next mission. Those are times also where I didn't always know how to fit it. as you know, as somebody who was very different because of my gender, and sometimes conversations would move to topics, which I struggled to join in and talk about because there just wasn't subjects that I was. Comfortable even laughing at. The topic that always I felt most comfortable that people would talk about and we would all like really share a laugh regardless of whether you were an officer, a pilot, a mechanic, a refueler armor, whoever was there, everybody could laugh at the universal story around it. Having to go poop, so you're in an environment where there are no bathrooms, there are no private spaces. And so it was just like one of those things where I could bring that up and it would be 20, 30 minutes of laughter and stories and you could really. You know, joke and have fun with everybody and, and laugh about that. So still this day, people remind me, but I would always bring up the poop stories. There we go. Friends. If you take anything bonding around poop stories, I've done some backpacking and not the same real clear, but it is funny how in those settings also. Conversations about bodily functions can become points of emphasis for connections. So again, can't compare, but that's funny. So I want to shift now to a topic that I know you have so much passion around, which is The notion of service itself. So you served the military, you're a veteran. you're also an advocate now for current service members, veterans, and also for other folks in the community. You're a passionate advocate for L-G-B-T-Q, identified folks and other, people who, deal with discrimination. And, and so this is kind of partly in your. In your DNA, but this oath of service in the military, can you tell us what it is and why it's important, particularly in this kind of nutty time of a lot of complexity, a lot of sparkiness, a lot of. Ideological divides. tell us a about that oath that military members take? And how do you see that evolving over time? Well, I think that the oath is, is a part of service that if you hadn't been in the service, you may not know about. And so that's where I, I definitely wanted to bring this up. when you join, you raise your right hand and you swear an oath. And then when you become a commissioned officer, you swear an oath. When you take on that rank and the core part of that is that I will support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and then I'll bear true faith and allegiance to the same. Now I'll take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion. And I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office of which I'm about to enter. So help me God. And I think that. a lot of people post election are elated, they're celebrating, other people are feeling wounded and despondent, all different other kinds of emotions on, on all the sides. And yet here's this military that doesn't represent any party. There's no changing of the military because there's a new elected official. The military serves whomever the people decide to elect and they serve the constitution and it's really a steadying kind of force within the military that we're there for the purpose of defending our constitution and You might join under somebody that you're excited that they got elected, and then you might still be in underneath somebody else. And so there's political changes that do have significant consequences for the military, but the underlying mission really doesn't change. And in these difficult times, I wanted to share here's these federal servants who are selfless, who may not be home for Christmas for years on end or miss every kid's birthday, their youngest first, how like you name it, they could be gone. And yet they don't ride the tide of the election because they have that steadying force of serving the constitution. I wanted to, I wanted to talk about it. I love that. And do you see that changing at all as we find the last few years, maybe more than the last few years, we have more public discourse that can sometimes really feel divisive, And othering and, That steadying influence that you described? Is that shaking in any way? Do you have any concerns about that not being as strong and steadying in the years to come? Or do you feel real confident that there's a rootedness and a strength that permeates the service and that oath to the constitution. I would, not want to speak about today because I'm not an active duty service member. and I wouldn't want to. Project onto the future, but my expectation from my experiences when I did serve was that people really signed up to serve America and that's what they were signing up to do. And if they voted, they were pretty quiet about it. And in fact, a lot of people really subscribe in the officer ranks to not talking about their own personal politics. Publicly, because they want to always ensure that the military is there to defend the constitution and not a particular party. And I would strongly suspect that that culture is still very much. what you would experience in the military, maybe not every day, maybe not every conversation. People are allowed to talk about those things, but I think they, as a group, there is so much emphasis on how do we come together to do incredibly hard missions and work together and protect one another and serve the constitution and serve whoever is elected. The people have chosen and they're there to defend whomever they've chosen. So that would be what I would project is going to continue to be. And I would want anybody who's thinking about serving to first serve like their first decision. I want to serve because I want to be a part of that. And I want to defend our constitution and not to be either overly excited or overly dissuaded based off of who currently is in office. Mm, that's, that is, that seems really important because that then nourishes this, your sense of a steadying influence, right, of the enduring oath, not to a person, not to a party, but again, the mission of the military itself. So that, that makes a lot of sense to me. And I'm thinking about some former generals write some books recently, right? And is it accurate that there's some controversy among veterans? About the wisdom of writing memoirs as a former military leader reflecting on a president and, their capability. How does that play out amongst you and your peers, veterans? There's definitely, there's a deep respect for military history. And a lot of, members of the military are very familiar with, Civil War or World War II, World War I, battles that were, It's just part of them thinking about how these different battles were fought and why they were fought. And I think the line starts to get drawn when somebody feels like somebody's writing about what they were involved in for a sense of personal gain. So there's this sense of is your purpose to communicate the mistakes you made, the why you chose to serve, you know, all these reasons, or is the, is the underlining intent? I'm going to make money from book sales and I'm going to raise my sense of purpose and ego. And it becomes pretty individual. And starkest divide where members of the military, they don't like our tactics shared. Because that's, our, IP, and they also really don't like people seeking individual glory. And regardless of whether you're walking administrations, right, but those are two pretty clear lines where it's going to be a challenge to have the right intent of why you're writing whatever story it is you want to share. And it's partly that line you describe, it's easier to see by you perhaps, because as an officer, everyone is trained not to seek the limelight, and you met me, you mentioned before about building that sense of team and connection to purpose, that you have to be effective as a team and there's no success as an individual, right? So bringing limelight to yourself would be culturally really frowned upon. Is that accurate? That's accurate. Yeah, we have, all kinds of words for this and phrases, but, you know, one would be spotlight ranger, another one would be like my tents up, you know, like, Hey, I, my tent looks great. And again, all these different phrases, but they're all the same thing of you're starting your sentences with I, as opposed to, Hey, how do I make sure we all. You know, get something done and the best platoon sergeants drill sergeants, they teach that, starting on day one that they don't want you to try to stand out and the intention is, is how is this group going to perform as a team and they'll do it on the other side as well. Hey, this person's being left behind. How do you all, so whether it's stand out for glory or stand out being left behind, the group will be forced to pull together. And was there a moment in your training at West Point, Because it's an incredibly rigorous experience academically. It's fantastic. And You're learning how to serve, how to be a leader in addition to the academics and learning about military history and that sort of thing, was there a moment or a class that stood out to you that really helped you shape your moral compass and your sense? Of what taking that oath to the constitution was. Yeah, we, we had a course in the, in the social department as we called it. And it really stood out to me because it started to talk about, author Samuel Huntington. And, to give everybody the quick version is that the military is not there to serve one party. The military should be a political and this was very controversial, uh, at the time that it came out, but in, in studying that book and having all those discourse and conversations, and a lot of people were really proud of whichever party they supported and they're kind of being. told like, yeah, you vote, but you, you need to not wear your uniform to a political rally. You need to not, be vocal about your. your choices. And I think that course had a lot on just deepening my sense of purpose. What's the purpose of the military and why that was so important. And I think we can all say, yes, we don't want the military to serve an individual. And sometimes a party can start to be really represented by an individual rather than the military serving our constitution. Are, freedoms that are guaranteed within our constitution. And that is the higher purpose. And so that, that definitely stood out to me. Yeah, that's a powerful message, including, you were encouraged to vote, be an active citizen? And when you're in your uniform, when you're on duty, you are 100 percent focused on your role. And the blurring of boundaries between the two is not appropriate. That would be considered, unethical. It would definitely be against the professional military ethic that Huntington wrote about, and I think that we all kind of, we stop and think about it. Well, should the army endorse a candidate, should the Navy, should these different units, I mean, it, when you start to go through the layers, it's. It's pretty clear, why we should not, and even as individuals, being in civilian clothes, you know, participating in the civil process makes complete sense. And when you are serving as an officer in the armed forces, it, um, it doesn't really have a place. That seems very clear. I love how you are able to articulate that. So I have two more questions. One is After you retired from service, you went into the corporate sector and I know you worked in the maritime industry for a while. you've been in tech, and you now you're sharing your leadership experience as an executive coach and boy lucky clients that you have. Can I say that? What were some lessons that you were able to take from your service into the private sector about pulling people together? because I would guess the maritime sector is real different than the tech sector, right? Different cultures and what you're doing now, maybe a little more one on one. You've been an executive in a lot of roles. So what translates, what are those enduring lessons learned as a leader? And then what might be different that you would want listeners to know about? You know, there's so many, I'm not sure where to start. I think we talk a little bit about EQ, right? But you just for listeners as an acronym, what does that mean? Most people know, but I want to make sure your emotional intelligence, which. to get a real clear army speak, like are other people picking up what you're putting down? All right. Thank you. That's easier to know than EQ, right? And, I think that, in the military, there can be really low filter, which is fabulous in terms of your ability to learn. And I think building an organization and as a leader, encouraging the least lowest filter possible so that. People do again, back to, Oh, we got to make a plan. We got to pressure test this mission. I do not have all the answers, right? We do have the right answers. How do we kind of come together? If you can't read other people's reactions to what you're pulling, putting down, then. It's highly likely that you could end up with some kind of faulty plan. You do have to make decisions. You do have to tell people there isn't, there is a stop moment to discussion. But again, if you have people who are really guarded and don't feel comfortable to speak truth, I think it limits your organization's capability. And. It will certainly limit your capability as a potential leader. And so when you talk about having a low filter, it's, does that mean people understand you easily? Or what's the filter? They're not censoring their feedback, their words, their response. Their ideas, their participation in whatever conversations you really want them to be involved in. Got it. Yeah. That makes so much sense. And you gave that great example of the platoon sergeant telling you, ask people for their input. What a, wise platoon sergeant. I honestly think that was like day one. Okay. Must know this. Do you think, do you think that platoon sergeant saw a lot of officers who came in that might have had a different sense of what to do? I'm sure that it was battle tested advice, battle tested, by the way, a little aside, you know that I'm involved with the Fred Hutch Cancer Center here in Seattle. Fantastic institution. And I, know a lot of, MDs, a lot of oncologists. I know a lot of our nursing staff and to a person, our MDs will say the folks who really know what's going on. It's the nurses because they are there with patients all the time. And so that, that battle tested on the field, like in the clinic all the time, really know what's going on. So I wonder if that's a little bit of an analogy from the platoon sergeant, is that. An analogy that works. It's it definitely works. Great. So last question What gives you the most hope about how we as a society can bridge divides and as a former military leader, someone who's led folks in very stressful settings, You've been able to translate that, in the private sector, as you just mentioned. Where do you have a lot of hope, even in times that, again, can feel a little nutty, sometimes a little too caustic in our public discourse? I have a ton of, like a positive outlook when you meet young men and women who really want to serve our nation and they have put in so much hard work to try to earn the right to become an officer in the Navy, the air force, the army, and they have incredible futures and careers that they've planned. Unbelievable academic and physical leadership achievements. And they're saying, I want to raise my right hand and I want to serve this great nation. It is hard for you to believe that they will not bring together people from every corner of this country, including Puerto Rico and Guam build really strong units that are capable of doing sometimes near impossible. Missions to support and defend us. So if you're looking for a dose of inspiration about the future of our country, I would strongly encourage you to go watch a graduation of a basic training class. Go watch a West Point. Graduation on YouTube, watch a clip of everybody putting on their airborne wings that just freely without reservation decided to jump out of a perfectly good airplane and learn how to become the best soldier they could be. So it gives me, gives me a lot of hope that there isn't a divide when it comes to what their purpose is. Well, I'm getting chills hearing that. Thank you. It gives me a lot of inspiration and it reminds me of an event that I went to when I worked at the Gates Foundation. Part of my portfolio was security, cyber security and physical, physical security And so we had a pretty big operation because we worked all over the world and in some really remote areas. My head of security was retired major general Richard Lake, who was a Marine. And After I left the Gates Foundation, he rang me up and he said, hey boss, and I always thought it was really funny that this retired major general would call me boss, said hey boss, I'll be in town over in Bainbridge Island and we're gonna have this event of a changing of the commander for the, Marines who guard the nuclear submarine base here. And he said, would you come as my guest? I said, sure. So it was very formal thing. I didn't know what to expect, but it was such an inspiring event to see the regalia and the protocol and the honoring of the commander who was leaving, welcoming in the new commander and to see the precision. And all of their stuff. It was so inspiring to me and I looked around at what seemed like very young people working as a unit, pulling off this amazing event. And, Dick had shared with me that this is something that they plan and they choreograph and and it did give me a lot of inspiration then, and a lot of confidence that we have really great folks like you who are serving and our veterans who are now doing, great things. So it's not to say that there isn't controversy out there, et cetera, et cetera, but I'm so heartened. Hartley that you've joined today and have shared some of your experience with me and listeners on the podcast. So thank you for making time today. Absolutely. It was a pleasure to be here. Great. Thanks again. I hope you. Enjoyed this episode of the space in between podcast. If. If you did, please hit the like button and leave a review. Wherever you listen to the show. And check out the space. Space in between.com website, where you can also leave me a message.