A VERY Spirited Discussion About 'Wokeness' with Sally Kohn, Author & former FOX News Contributor

In a world increasingly divided by political and social ideologies, it's crucial to explore topics that might seem polarizing but are deeply impactful.  This week, we continue dialogue on a topic adjacent to diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI): ‘Wokeness’.  Join host Leigh Morgan delves into these complex themes with guest Sally Kohn, former FOX News contributor, media coach, TED speaker and author of "The Opposite of Hate." Sally shares her take on wokeness, the new administration, structural dimensions of inequality and how, despite deep divisions in society, we can bridge divides and not surrender one's values.

Transcript

0:01

Hello and welcome to the. Space in between podcast. I'm your host Lee Morgan. Again, this podcast is for listeners who are fed up. Up with the hyperpolarized nature of the world today. And who crave. Craves spaces where current events can be discussed in construct. enlightening and delightful ways. Let's get.

Leigh Morgan: 0:26

These days, hardly a day goes by without somebody referencing views about wokeness. decry wokeness as a plague on society and others experience anti woke sentiments a hardly veiled form of white supremacy. There is a lot of nuance between these extremes, and today we will explore the origin of the concept itself, discuss why wokeness debates are gripping public discourse, and share some ways to move past simplistic us versus them mindsets. and towards dialogue and connection that helps build bridges across divide. guest today, Sally Cohn, has a lot to say about this topic, my friends. Her work in the world is all about bridging divides. One of the things I like most about her is that she doesn't just talk about bridging divides, she actually does it. For example, she was a self described Lesbian progressive talking head on the Sean Hannity show. This is Fox News, folks. She has spoken and written frequently about how to move beyond simplistic us versus them mindsets and narratives. She is the author of a great book called The Opposite of Hate, a field guide to repairing our humanity. And her Ted talk on this subject is Very powerful, And we're going to talk a little bit about what she had to say and how to move forward with more togetherness and hopefully a little more, uh, smarts on issues of the day. Sally. Welcome to the space in between podcast.

Sally Kohn: 2:16

I'm so excited to be on with you, Lee.

Leigh Morgan: 2:18

I'm glad to have you here. And Sally, as I mentioned, you are, you are a walking, talking Bridger between many worlds. I gave some examples, but there's lots more to share. What do you want listeners to know about your passion? And you have a lot of passion for helping people and society move through divides, which and we'll talk about this woke, anti woke divide, but where does your passion come from?

Sally Kohn: 2:49

Wow, what a big question. Um, my, what animates me at my core. This is a really big question, Lee. what animates me at my core is what helps everyday people, live their fullest purpose, joy, self. Life and the idea that was thought to be pretty early on in my life and in my career by both experience and mentors that one of the best ways we do that, in a society and certainly in the United States of America, thankfully, still is by ordinary people having power and agency, meaning in the political system. Democracy, not just voting, but all the different iterations and forms of rights and responsibilities of a democracy and liberty, and in day to day life, the ability to you know, express themselves in culture, speak up at work, advocate for what they need. That, to me, how to do that, how to help ordinary people live full, free, robust lives, that's probably at the core of every single thing I've ever done.

Leigh Morgan: 4:11

That's a pretty strong core and a very clear North Star that you've described. Where did that from? Is that something in your family culture or you learned through certain experiences that became to animate you in such a big way?

Sally Kohn: 4:28

Um, well, Dr. Freud, I, was very lucky to have parents who, in, Cocated in me early on a sense of service, and a belief that, especially if you are fortunate, whether that is financially, intelligently, culturally, whatever, that your duty, that your responsibility is to do for others. Um, that was, that was taught to me very, very early on, and I was very lucky then to have mentors throughout my life, who helped me understand that in an increasingly politicized context, right, that it's not just, like, about charity and being a do gooder and meat, but actually thinking about the systems and structures that make it possible for some people to have agency and voice and power and others not to, and, and that's what made me want to work more in the world of community organizing and advocacy and justice and really think about how you make systems more inclusive. And I don't just mean inclusive in the sense of like everyone's included, but like that they are working for everyone, in our society.

Leigh Morgan: 5:36

Well, you did say Dr. Freud, so thank you for that,

Sally Kohn: 5:40

Yes, no problem.

Leigh Morgan: 5:41

No problems there. No pressure. Um, well, there's a lot there on power and agency. That's huge. And I actually think that notion is really relevant to our topic today, which is exploring this notion of wokeness. Right. And so I wonder if, we can take a moment and level set and try to define terms. I think the notion of wokeness depends on who's saying it and, and what the intention is, but what perspective do you have about the notion of wokeness? And how do you see it used in society today?

Sally Kohn: 6:17

Yeah, I mean, you know, look, it's I didn't go back and like, look at the historical what do you want? What not? I know in my own consciousness, right? I mean, it's very interesting, right? It comes out of, or at least in my case, it came out of, teaching, provocation, agitation, in particular from many of my colleagues and friends on the sort of Black left, and comes out of that discourse and culture, and it was very much in its sort of earliest days, and up until fairly recently, it was, A term that connoted a certain awareness about the intricacies and extent of injustice, in a particular systemic injustice, right? Like, I kind of generally correlate the idea of, with an awareness. That injustice, inequality, discrimination, et cetera, isn't just a product of individual biases and bigotry, but the history of injustice and the present reality of that, the ripple effects of that injustice are still baked into, not just our minds and how we all think of whatever, but like our institutions, our norms, our culture, our laws, et cetera, and that the awareness of that, Got termed wokeness. I think it's really tough how language gets appropriated and misappropriated and, and rewritten and, right? And so now it's like, well, we're not going to talk, we're not supposed to talk about that. And I, you know, there's the baby and there's the bathwater and, uh, but that's my historical understanding, if you will.

Leigh Morgan: 8:00

yeah, you know, I have a similar sense and some of the reading I did is actually this notion of Being woke in some African American communities was a way of being aware and attentive to risks that would come to you based on your race. And then interestingly, your 2013 Ted talk, which was on emotional correctness, what was so interesting to me is at that time around 2013, we talked a lot about political correctness and there was,

Sally Kohn: 8:33

Correct.

Leigh Morgan: 8:34

seems like a similar split where you have. More liberal identified folks, asserting beliefs about systemic injustice and discrimination based on race or ethnicity or gender or gender identity or religious belief, whatever that list is. And therefore shining a spotlight to say, this is actual reality. And if that's reality, we need to change laws and systems and policies. And culture to eliminate these systemic. And then, and then you had a reaction to that, political correctness. And you talked about this in your Ted talk saying, know, I'm not sure I agree with the assumptions that you're making liberals who are saying that these, that we have these systemic issues. And in fact, to actually take on or to disagree, uh, then I'm getting shamed for that. And I, there's some

Sally Kohn: 9:33

Well, that's interesting. I'm not sure I would characterize my talk that way I mean here's what I would say. And it's been a long time, so I don't know how many characters I'm going to talk. I haven't watched in a while, but here's what I think I thought, and here's what I certainly think today. I'll say this much, I think of political correctness as it was colloquially used at the time as having to do with a certain, um, it was about language and manners, if you will, right? It's offensive to call someone this, it's offensive to call someone that, and It was sort of intensely and inherently focused on the kind of individual level behaviors. And the point of my talk in, in that, that TED Talk was, for me, yeah, I don't love it if you call me a this and whatever, but like, it's more about what does it mean, and more importantly, what's the power in the institutions and the arrangements behind it, right? Like, yeah, do I like, You know, do I, uh, not like when some guy uses some derogatory sexist, whatever? Of course I don't. But what I really don't like is when you have like laws and systems and right hiring policies and so on and so forth that are sexist, right? So I care more about the institutions. That was my, um, under this larger point of like, yes, also it's the actual emotion behind it and, and your intent and your feeling and your analysis and whatever. That being said, and I'm probably guilty of it too in that talk, right? If I went back. what I think the sort of critique of what political correctness and the critique of I would argue they have in common, this would be the bathwater part of the baby in the bathwater, was this sort of holier than thou ness of, well, there's a right way, there's a wrong way. You, you are enlightened, you are not enlightened. And I've long said, and I'm not the only one to have said so, like, well, I wasn't born perfectly enlightened, right? People along the way had to teach me and school me, and, and I've done this for others, and right, like, that's part of learning and growing. And we recognize that we should give to others the grace that someone once gave to us, and that's part of the human experience, right, of building empathy and understanding is, oh, I didn't know, I've learned, right? And so some of this, like, judgy in group, out group I'm better than you because I know this and I've learned this and you haven't and so on and so forth, which often, by the way, is mapped onto class and education and so forth. There's a sort of like, you know, um, elite, enlightened elite versus, right? And I think that's a problem. And I think that's a problem for a whole host of reasons, but certainly also because it leads to a backlash. I think it's also a problem because It's not like, you don't pat yourself on the damn back because you lived in a, you know, you went to a well off college where you, right? I don't know. that's just, it's so wrong. It's also self defeating, right? I think it led to a lot of judginess. Um, that, that ended up being, I think, And I'm not trying to place blame or whatever, you know, again, but like, if we could have done it without that, I wonder if we'd be in a slightly different place culturally, but, Um, here we are.

Leigh Morgan: 12:45

yeah, I, I agree with your assessment and that's part of the motivation for me to launch this podcast and somewhat to my surprise, almost in every episode, there's a Recognition that no matter where you stand or come from, whether you're on this liberal side, right, of wanting to bring a spotlight to systemic injustice, et cetera, or on the right, which is having our judgy moment, right? It's like throwing lobbying back and forth.

Sally Kohn: 13:14

Mm.

Leigh Morgan: 13:15

the I'm right, you're wrong. But the dynamic is what is corrosive and destructive. And I believe undermines our ability to And actually listen and realize that we have way more things in common, then we don't have in common. And I do not say that we also don't have some really frightening policies that are being proposed that could really lead to of people dying, for example, if we pull back on the very little we spend on global health. And so we can have strong reactions and views, to kind of get in this cycle of othering and judging, it just doesn't actually get us better policy.

Sally Kohn: 14:02

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I don't, and, at the same time. Let's talk about, not the bathwater, but the baby, at the same time. When you look at the massive wealth gap in our society, and look, I'd rather us talk about you know, it's not like a black versus white, like you also have You know, a small handful of billionaires who own more than the other half of the entire country, right? So this is like, white folks and black folks and brown folks are really, really suffering. And when you look at, though, the fact that wealth gap is even greater when it comes to black folks, uh, when you look at the wage gap, right? I I don't know everything and I'm not perfect, but I look at that and I say, well, gee, I know how my own. Attainments in life, right? Economic, educational, etc. are the cumulative effect of what my parents were able to provide for me, and that, um, I understand, generational compounding interest, if you will, right? I put, you know, money in the bank, if I'd been smarter and put money in the bank when I was younger, I'd have more now, well, would my family and my family's family put You know, other kinds of investments in the bank, education, uh, right, like being able to have, own a house in a certain neighborhood with certain schools, et cetera, that all compounds generationally, and so when I look then at some of these statistics, I go, well, you know what? I think the only way to explain discrepancies in racial discrepancies, racial gaps in wealth, and, college admissions, et cetera, et cetera, those are baked into our systems, institutions, and norms. That's the only way I can personally explain away those inequalities, and the problem I have with people who say, No, no, no., We should throw all this out, all this diversity stuff, blah blah blah, well then, how do you explain the discrepancies? The thing I desperately want to ask, and I often do, but I, I wish people would address at higher levels in terms of those who are perpetuating deeply misinformation, disinformation, lie, let's just call them lies, lie filled attacks on so called diversity, equity, and inclusion. is they don't give us another explanation, right? sometimes they'll try to argue away the statistics, but some of you can't, even they can't even argue away, so how do they explain it? And, and to me, the only other way you could explain it is, well, you're just racist, and you just think, well, those people aren't as good, and that's why, right? So I have a really hard time squaring that circle, and I don't care what language we use, this goes maybe back to my TED talk, I don't care what language we use. As a society, we gotta wrestle with the fact that it wasn't too long ago, it wasn't until 1954, Brown vs. Board of Education, that we said like, Oh, we have to have, black kids and white kids have to be in schools that are To say, you know, they're equal and right, like, you can't just have segregation, you can't just say separate and equal and blah blah blah, like, that wasn't that friggin long ago,

Leigh Morgan: 17:14

It wasn't, you know, we,

Sally Kohn: 17:15

right? So, that was my parents lifetime, and again, then my parents go to college and my parents, right, so, like, you have to look at these patterns and you can't, you can't explain them away. And,

Leigh Morgan: 17:29

how do

Sally Kohn: 17:30

yeah.

Leigh Morgan: 17:30

yeah, no, I, I'm with you and I understand the thoughtfulness and, and for listeners, Sally and I know each other. We've been in a few spaces together. I would say on most issues, we'd probably agree on how we got here what I'm really curious about is. What do we do with this situation? Right? And we have a reality in the world right now in the U. S. where a dominant debate is raging, Talking about you're woke, you're not woke, D. E. I. is bad, uh, the baby and the bath water is bad, and so we're just gonna wipe you off the table. We're not having any more baths in the house, right? So

Sally Kohn: 18:12

I would characterize it differently, yeah. I would actually characterize it entirely differently. I mean, we're trying to get into the nice nuance of what's good and what's bad. But actually, the whole reason that this is a topic, the politicization of all of this, wokeness, D E I, whatever you want to call it. Is one thousand percent, because there is a small but extraordinarily powerful, very well organized, and very planful group. we can name names if you want me to name names. Who very much do not represent the majority, although very much have done a good job of stoking fear and division and resentment to win votes and elections and so forth and popular opinion, but who want to use this to divide people and distract us so that they can take this Unimaginable inequality that we have now and just make it worse, right? So, can I, can I, I'll pick, can I pick a current event example? So, just yesterday, Donald Trump Passed some executive orders regarding education. Two are worth noting, So one says, uh, we're gonna, in effect, we're gonna ferret out schools that are teaching,

Leigh Morgan: 19:39

Oh, the other

Sally Kohn: 19:40

you know, anything that we think is, like, diversity. I had only patriotic education. And by the way, I would just footnote here, this is a well documented, tactic of fascists, proto fascists and authoritarians. which is to whitewash history and to take away any kind of critical thinking on the part of the public. Guess what? You can hold both ideas in your head. You can be a proud, patriotic American and think we are the greatest democratic experiment in the history of the world and also recognize that we did some really messed up things and got some things very, very wrong. It is possible to hold both those two things together. But when you have, for instance, what they did in Florida, saying Oh, we're gonna teach that there were positives to slavery. Like, that is fascist. Anyway, so this, this gets passed. This is a history thing. So, so meanwhile, I'm not the only one saying it, right? Ruth Ben Ghia, Jason Stanley, Ann Applebaum. Historians. Go read them. Meanwhile, you have this executive order. We're gonna root out diversity, blah, blah, blah, in education, punish schools that do wrong, everybody has to teach patriotic education, at the exact same time. Exact same time, though it gets less attention, because the other one is flashy. The other one is transgenderism. Let's not forget transgenderism.

Leigh Morgan: 20:48

know.

Sally Kohn: 20:49

The other executive order says we're gonna start funneling public education money to private school vouchers, which is, by the way, just a money grab. For the super rich, right? In places like Arizona, something like 80 percent. Of people getting vouchers in Arizona already had their kids going to private school. It's just bringing people back there. It's another shrink government thing and say, here rich people, take your money back. Uh, and defund public schools that ordinary Americans of all political stripes and all races rely on. And I'm not saying there's aren't things we need to do to fix schools, but good god, this ain't it, right? Like, what do we need to do to fix schools? A lot, right? But it's not

Leigh Morgan: 21:31

of

Sally Kohn: 21:31

defund

Leigh Morgan: 21:31

Yeah.

Sally Kohn: 21:32

It's not defund them and attack what teachers are teaching. No, it's like, make sure teachers are paid better and they got science labs and textbooks and work on inequality between schools right?

Leigh Morgan: 21:45

Yeah. And you know what? Um, I did a

Sally Kohn: 21:48

Sorry, I'll get off my high horse. Sorry. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Leigh Morgan: 21:52

a very interesting podcast on this subject around public schools with Laura Papano, who wrote the book, moms and ostensibly it was about the, moms for liberty movement,

Sally Kohn: 22:04

Mm hmm. Mm

Leigh Morgan: 22:05

of the architect around some of the language and policies that have been rolled out. And when one of the reasons I had Laura on was because her book was also and gave examples of red conservative school districts. where school moms were literally taking back the school boards from the Monster Liberty folks but what I'm interested in is your views because, you were the liberal voice, in a, red studio there with Sean Kennedy. And part of what you write about and talk about, you hold these strong views, You also have an ability to help clients and people you touch find ways to listen to people with other views. And so when we talk about this anti wokeness that dominates. feels to me like a distraction from actually having the kind of conversations we need where there's more people like the school moms and red districts who are like, Oh, no, no, we do need to say, do we have enough money to pay our teachers? Can we have the breakfast for the kids who come to school hungry? Do we have money for janitors so that the schools don't smell crappy those are the real issues. And debating about whether to say, the unhoused or homeless, right. I think distracts us. And so what, what have you learned, To be able to keep this kind of fiery clarity, but also create space to build bridges and see each other as fully human.

Sally Kohn: 23:47

So, right, I was a Fox News lefty lesbian commentator for almost four years. Uh, this was 2009 to 2013 or so. 2013, 2014, something like that. And then as now, what is true is that When we talk in absolutes, we create absolutes, right? So, you know, we have to find ways. Look, uh, here's the thing. I don't think, I'm not compromising on certain beliefs. I'm just not. Right? I, I do think, and I will say from experience, right, cable news and a lot of our public discourse, and certainly social media, it forces us to act more and seem more polarized than we really, really are, and we lose a lot of the nuance and so forth. But even that being said, like, there are some things I feel very deeply, strongly about, right? I don't think we should privatize public education. You want us to educate the private school? No problem, right? But, I don't think we should take public money. And why, by the way? Because public schools are a hallmark of our democracy. And the whole reason that we created public education in this country is because our founding fathers understood that to have a democracy where the people had the power, you had to actually educate the people and have them informed on civics, among other things. And so, it is essential. Again, that's the reason why I love it, and I feel passionately, and I'm not going to stop. And, talking about it that way, principles, morals, values, common good, common ground, as opposed to, you're right, you're wrong, you're this, you're that, right? And listen, I'm not saying I'm not doing that too, because I'm throwing around labels. Uh, maybe I should be talking about You know, being fascist as opposed to being fascist or whatever, but like, I do think there is something about talking about morals and values as opposed to just policies and conclusions. I think there's something about sharing stories and experiences, right? Why is this important to me? Why do I feel this way? Um, right? I've had experiences with doing that when I had Any number of, people attack me, my sexuality, my family, on air at Fox News. I could have reacted in a certain, like, shutting down discussion. Instead it's, well, wait a second. Hang on. I need you to know something. And, again, trying to connect as opposed to closed down discussion. Um, I would say the other thing that I find is incredibly essential, and this one's really friggin hard, is that if you, and it's something I teach people, uh, in the work I do around communications and media training for politicians and business leaders and non profit leaders is if you are not genuinely willing to have your mind changed, you can't change someone else's opinion. So it has to be a conversation. And this gets into actual neuroscience where we know that when we argue. We feel like we're being argued with or attacked or whatnot, or even we're just watching an argument, the persuasion part of our brain shuts down, the argument, uh, flight or fight, like, taking sides, right, turns on, persuasion stops, so you can't

Leigh Morgan: 27:14

Right.

Sally Kohn: 27:15

And, you know, listen, I write about this in my book. No one, no one, no one ever, ever, ever, ever has been yelled at into changing their mind. That's not how it works.

Leigh Morgan: 27:25

It might be yelled at into submission or to doing an action that's different. Then a heart and mind, saying, Oh, I can see or feel what, where you're coming from.

Sally Kohn: 27:37

Correct. It has to be, it has to be conversational. It has to be, and generally speaking, people have to kind of come to the revelation on their own as opposed to being told, no, you're wrong, here's why, here's why you need to change. And literally, we now know from neuroscience. That is counterproductive. Hmm. Hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Leigh Morgan: 27:59

Fox, who was a bestselling author and she helps people write books and she's written books. She talked a lot about the neuroscience of listening, uh, what that actually does and actually telling your story. And you talked about a compelling story for you to. when you teach people if you're not genuinely willing to change or be open, your effectiveness in changing someone else's views decreases. And I've been really surprised this is episodes to be probably episode 14 or 15. This notion of storytelling and listening as a way through for all of us who have really, really strong views because you just lit up like a firecracker talking about some of these policies and I have similar passion on issues. I think there's a general dissatisfaction with the corrosive nature of conversations about everything. And I would wager that a lot of that corrosiveness comes from, you know, it's kind of tone and tenor, right? Of, I don't care. It's my way or the highway on that's coming from the current administration. I will also say, There's not a, don't have a monopoly on othering and finger pointing.

Sally Kohn: 29:21

No.

Leigh Morgan: 29:22

And so that's the piece that I want to elevate. And I do find some hubris, across all political spectrums of like, I actually find that the Trump and mega are actually just unbelievably effective. In simplistic either or right or wrong. I think there's just a mastery there. I don't wanna copy the mastery because it's based on othering and instilling fear. I wanna take the mastery of communication and put that in a better light.

Sally Kohn: 29:55

Well, listen, uh, Trump has an uncanny ability, well, I'll say this, lemme say it differently. Lemme say it differently. For 60 plus years, the, avowed political strategy of the Republican Party, this is just a fact. This is not an opinion this is a fact. The southern strategy, uh, go read about it, has been to stoke. Fear and resentment, particularly among, uh, a base of working, working and working poor white voters. And stoke resentment and fear about people of color, black folks, immigrants, et cetera. And on and off, that has been a strategy, you know, Nixon, Reagan, et cetera. Trump has a particular uncanny ability to tell people what they want to hear and stream it in. Us, them, firms. But again, he's building on a tradition there. Uh, do I think it is just heartbreaking that that person convinced struggling working class folks that he gives a damn about them? Yeah, I think it's heartbreaking. And on the other hand, folks are not wrong if their lived reality is that Politicians and certainly Democrats didn't give a damn about them. Right? And, you know, to me, that's a whole conversation about NAFTA and globalization and how both parties are too, you know, invested in corporate elites and cultural elites and right? In a way, it's, he's an avatar for the diagnosis of the problem. But the, there is an authentic pain and problem that he taps into. And I don't think it's about wokeism. That's the thing, right? Like, it's not.

Leigh Morgan: 31:54

Well, I want to riff off of that because in a way I wanted to have a podcast that explored the notion of wokeism because it's a thing in our culture. And I share your belief that wokeism and language is a symptom. Of beliefs and mindset in your culture. So I'm interested in kind of the deeper levels here, I think one of the reasons why people get motivated to vote is because candidate, perhaps more than the other, an individual feeling seen and heard more. And so this is where at a very deep level, I think as a society and as individuals. There's an epidemic of not feeling seen and heard. So, and where that happens, it's easier for for anyone to follow or lean towards someone who, who maybe not just looks like them, but sounds like them and describes a reality that feels proximal. That feels a little more like what my daily life is like. And

Sally Kohn: 33:09

Mm hmm.

Leigh Morgan: 33:10

that's where some of this surface level language of you're too woke anti DEI, it comes from is enough voters that Trump or the MAGA movement or candidates that represented those beliefs, feel seen and heard finally. And in fact, the day after the election, I was listening to, one of the New York Times podcasts. And they started by. Sharing for individuals who were sharing their reactions, and two were liberal and two were Harris voters. Two were voters and the first person was a man and I what I've made up is kind of a white guy who said, I finally feel respected. It's been a long time and so hold that and then we had two people saying I feel fear for my physical safety.

Sally Kohn: 34:06

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Leigh Morgan: 34:08

one can quibble or be annoyed that anyone would feel disrespected for whatever life that they live. It was his real experience. I mean, I didn't feel like he was lying. And my first thought was how sad it is that this person has felt disrespected it doesn't make me want to change my views on public education and where money goes. But I also just had a reaction of like that's really sad. And that's partly why the salesman is very effective because there's a subset of folks who don't feel seen and heard. And I'm interested in what's the way forward for those of us who have strong views and particularly middle or folks more progressive minded.

Sally Kohn: 34:57

Mm hmm.

Leigh Morgan: 34:57

What do we learn

Sally Kohn: 34:58

think

Leigh Morgan: 34:58

this?

Sally Kohn: 35:00

it's very rough here, right? Because, and this is where, uh, this is something I've written about, it's one thing to have these conversations individually, right? It's one thing to have a person sitting across from you who says, you know, I don't feel respected in our society, and you can listen to them, you can hear them, and you can ask questions and get curious, and asking questions and getting curious is, generally speaking, the absolute best thing we can do, right? You, if you don't ask questions, there's nothing to listen to. Mm hmm. Um, and as a trend, we can also try to peek beneath the hood of that and say, well, wait a second. Why is it that, more Black people in culture and more women's equality and, you know, more visibility of LGBTQ folks correlates with you feeling disrespected or invisible or disempowered or marginalized and so forth? And, again, part of my diagnosis, writ large, kind of big macro level, is that Societies are always changing. Communities are always changing. We have done, I think, a bad job. First of all, in some ways they are changing for the worse, right? it's harder for your kids to afford things than you could. And we've, we, we, whoever the we is who's not The extremes have not done a good job of explaining and ascribing why that's happening so that the alternative answer, it's easy or it's right to be able to then say, oh, well, it's the immigrants and it's the gay people and it's the right.

Leigh Morgan: 36:48

Marxist ideology in the school rooms. Well, actually there's not, that's not really happening. Yeah. I think that's really. Really astute, that in the absence of compelling storytelling where people feel seen and heard and listened to, then we're absolutes. And you started the podcast talking about this, of all or nothing language, you know, these simplistic reactions to anyone. And you know, guess what? The podcast, the space in between, we're really interested in what's in that space in between. Because I think that's. That's really the only way forward and the challenge is how do we do that and maintain our spirited strong views things? That's tough, but I've seen it be done and I've seen you navigate that in real time and because you actually put yourself in those settings and you've trained and how to share their stories. The language that we use, that's why I wanted to just start with that woke or not woke and like drop down into this much deeper conversation about how do we create those spaces we can hold firm to our strong views, and create the spaces at scale, Because I don't know if you can create spaces at scale, where people feel seen and heard. I think people more affiliate with people that look and feel like them.

Sally Kohn: 38:12

I will say, Brene Brown has this beautiful line that it's hard to hate people up close. It's not impossible, of course, but it is harder. And so I will say, again, I think that the nuance of each individual, a person, right, you know, the idea, for instance, that many on my side or whatever I've had for so long that, oh, well, if you believe these things. You are a racist, or you are a homophobic, or just not true when you meet people, they're just not. What is also true that you're saying, what is true, is that we as a society, partly because of the Twitter, and the cable news, and the soundbites, and the whatever, have gotten incredibly thin, and it feeds this is good, this is bad. You watch your new show, it's bad. You watch your new show, it's good. You watch, right? And it's so simple. Plistic. And then it relates to our points about education, right? Like, I feel like the best parts of my daughter's education are when she's given a whole set of complex ideas and she's supposed to not pick a side, not only get, learn one side or the other, but Understand complexity, and think critically, and be able to analyze pros and cons, and problem solve, and, right? All of that, that's what makes us good people, it's what makes us good citizens, right? It's, in our relationships, we manage in most of our relationships, interpersonally, to hold massive complexities. I'm mad at you for what you did, and I still love you, right? That's the essence. We do that interpersonally all the time. Now the question is can we do it for groups of people and can we do it for our country? Can we say, I'm mad at our history and I still love our country. I'm confused by this group of people and what they mean. And I Also, I believe that, you know, people live and live, live and let live, and I don't want anyone to suffer, right? Like, can we do both things together? That, to me, is what we have to lean into and lean toward. It's just very, very, very hard because I think everything in our media, politics, cultural society is, is Pulling in the other direction.

Leigh Morgan: 40:29

I completely agree with you and I will Encourage and ask anyone who's listening here one way to just get out of that is stop saying the W o k e word take it out Because it's so loaded with your either believe this or that And it

Sally Kohn: 40:47

Mm

Leigh Morgan: 40:48

us to sink into that space that you just, just described. that's sort of about tactics, things that can be done easily during the day to remove these emotive, uh, words. one of my guests, Danny Fallon, we talked about mental health from a public health perspective. she and I were talking about when we get to the boiling point, which. When you know you're mad at somebody and you know that feeling we all can think of it if it's our significant other or friend

Sally Kohn: 41:17

mm-hmm

Leigh Morgan: 41:17

that

Sally Kohn: 41:18

Great.

Leigh Morgan: 41:18

self awareness so the idea of self regulations get below the boiling point As individuals, because when we're at the boiling point, we don't listen. When we're angry, we don't listen. You gave us that example earlier. We, we know our brains don't function there. this isn't a Pollyanna thing. It's just really a practical way of understanding. Are, are, am I ready to listen to you now or not? If the answer's no, don't try. Because you're probably going to feel defensive. You don't feel seen or

Sally Kohn: 41:51

yeah. Great point. Great point.

Leigh Morgan: 41:53

so as we. Wrap up our time together. I always ask this question. If you had a magic wand,

Sally Kohn: 42:00

Oh,

Leigh Morgan: 42:01

Sally magic wand, And anything or everything you said to listeners today was heard, respected, and manifested. What is one wish you would have for listeners as all of us try to find a way through the polarization. That we find in society today, what's that one wish

Sally Kohn: 42:23

yeah, I'm gonna, go back with no one has ever changed their mind by being yelled at. I, I know it's, I mean, listen, I have a teenage daughter, I yell at her all the time. And she tells me, she's like, it doesn't work, mom, your lectures. And I was like, I know, but I feel like it's my birthright as a parent. Like, that's what, you know, and it didn't work when my parents lectured me either. But here I am doing it again. You know, it. That doesn't work. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. Uh, so, if we could learn, what does work, we know from all the child psychology and all the books that I've read and failed to follow, that I'm supposed to just ask questions and learn and get curious. Because, of course, by the way, If I actually respect her as an independent sentient being, she's supposed to come to her own realization, and I'm just supposed to be there to be supporting and loving. Okay, I get it, in theory. Now I have to actually do it with my child, who pushes every button on my planet, and so every single other human being on Earth, right? So that's a big one, too. Can I respect the people who disagree with me? Can I respect them? Can I believe that they have beliefs and value systems and morals that are valid because of their life experience and they are not inferior to mine? And that as a basis to then be curious and learn and listen? Whoa. Try that.

Leigh Morgan: 43:41

I'm going to try that

Sally Kohn: 43:43

Okay, there you go.

Leigh Morgan: 43:43

word to the word to the wisdom there, my friend, boom,

Sally Kohn: 43:48

Good to talk to you. This is great, Lee. I love that you're doing this.

Leigh Morgan: 43:52

it's, it's important work, we're all in it and, and, uh, I'm going to put in the show notes, the links to your powerful talks to your book.

Sally Kohn: 44:02

Why, thanks.

Leigh Morgan: 44:03

our spirited conversation here. You are a bright, sparky light in the world And thank you for spending time with us on the space in between today.

Sally Kohn: 44:13

Glad to do it, Lee. This was fun. Good job. It was great. You're good at this.

Leigh Morgan: 44:17

Awesome. Bye for you.

44:21

I hope you. Enjoyed this episode of the space in between podcast. If. If you did, please hit the like button and leave a review. Wherever you listen to the show. And check out the space. Space in between.com website, where you can also leave me a message.