Taxes: A Candid Conversation with Conservative Innovator Matt McIllwain

In this episode, host Leigh Morgan welcomes Matt McIlwain—managing director at Madrona Venture Group, respected civic leader in Seattle, and fellow board member at the Fred Hutch Cancer Center—for a thoughtful and deeply human conversation. Together, they explore questions at the intersection of tax policy, constructive dialogue, and the responsibilities we carry as citizens navigating a polarized time. While their views on policy may differ they both have a shared commitment to curiosity, listening, and mutual respect provided a model for how to talk through even the most emotive and controversial topics. One of those topics, tax policy, is often treated as a battleground. But in this exchange, it became a topic for learning.

Transcript

We have a fantastic episode today, and I'm very pleased to welcome my friend and fellow board member at the Fred Hutch Cancer Center, Matt Mwa, to the show.

Leigh Morgan: I've asked Matt to be on the podcast for a few reasons. First, he's a really sweet human being and we always have interesting conversations on a range of topics. The second reason is that the space in between podcasts is a forum where guests share their strong opinions about current events and also how to [00:01:00] strengthen connections and understandings in a hyperpolarized world.

Leigh Morgan: Matt has some strong views about fiscal policy, about the role of government taxes and a few other topics. Progressives like me might disagree with him sometimes, but you know what? He is always thoughtful. He does his homework, and the best part, he's a great listener. Perhaps more important for our conversation today.

Leigh Morgan: He has some insights to share about how we can transcend today's blame and shame culture. It's not always that way, but it's that way too often, and he has some thoughts about that and finding innovative ways to strengthen communities and bridge divides. Before we get started, a few things about Matt. He is a managing partner at Madrona Ventures, which is a leading tech firm based here, tech investment firm based here in Seattle.

Leigh Morgan: He is passionate about helping founders [00:02:00] build companies that leverage applied machine learning and cloud computing to solve really hard problems, especially where the life sciences and data science intersect. And he's a really well-respected civic leader in the greater Seattle region and in Washington, and is one of the most optimistic can-do.

Leigh Morgan: People that I know. Matt, welcome to the Space in Between podcast.

Matt McIlwain: Lee, thank you for that incredibly warm introduction. I am so excited to have a conversation with you and I, I've loved all the ones we've had over the years, and, uh, look forward to sharing this with your listeners.

Leigh Morgan: Great. Well, first question I've mentioned you've been a very successful leader at Mad Ventures, which is a terrific firm. You're also very involved in the greater Seattle region. As I mentioned, I know you to care deeply about strengthening communities, about building great companies and unlocking economic [00:03:00] prosperity wherever possible.

Leigh Morgan: Where does your passion for tech and making the world a better place come from?

Matt McIlwain: Oh gosh. Well, maybe I'll, I'll, I'll touch on two different directions on that. I think one of that is just the opportunities that, you know, you, you had in life and, you know, my parents met in the US Army. My mom never went to college. My dad was the first in his family to go to college and, you know, they worked hard and he got an opportunity to help, uh, go, uh, abroad with General Electric and learn about manufacturing in Singapore.

Matt McIlwain: At the Times, you know, GE was the biggest employer. Or in Singapore, this was in the early seventies. And so it's really interesting to have seen that path. And he eventually went to work for a, a modem manufacturer before those were cool. Uh, and so I saw just what he learned over the years and the opportunities that created for, for he and my mom and, and our family. then I think the other part is just, you know, to your [00:04:00] own personal, you know, kind of what are the things that matter to you. And for whatever reason, I always loved this intersection of the private sector and the public sector. And so whether that was. You know, in college, um, being both a major in government and economics or in grad school going both to a business school and a public policy school, there was something in my, um, you know, kind of core DNA, I guess, for lack of better words, that, uh, was like, I, I really care about how these two elements work together, the public sector and the private sector to go create a better opportunity, a bigger pie, uh, for everyone.

Leigh Morgan: I love how you say a bigger pie for everyone. And was, was there a a moment in your family or with a teacher that really helped catalyze you to focus in on public policy and economics as you have or in school?

Matt McIlwain: Yeah, so I [00:05:00] think on the, uh, it's funny, uh, on the economic side, I remember being in junior achievement in, in, in junior high school and high school, and just the exposure to the idea of building a business and what that could be, and that was a kind of a, a, a key first step. I went to this national conference a couple of years, and so that I think kind of spurred my entrepreneurial curiosities. But then, you know, I, I had an amazing, uh, professor when I went to Dartmouth College, um, a guy named Vincent Inger and he taught, uh, different classes in the, um, in the government, uh, department. And one was a kind of a survey class of different political philosophies that I took, uh, in my sophomore year.

Matt McIlwain: And I remember taking that class, loving it, um, you know, understanding, you know, the different ideas of Locke and Marx and Mill and, and you could go on down the road there of, of different, um, political philosophers. And then writing this letter home and saying, I'm switching my [00:06:00] major from engineering to government. I couldn't even admit that I really wanted to study political philosophy. 'cause everybody I think in the family would've wondered what's that ever gonna do for you? But, but I did focus a lot on that and I ended up taking three classes from Vincent Inger and he was kind of a legend at Dartmouth and uh, and just really opened my mind to just how much. I was passionate about those areas and thinking about it. You know, one example, he, he talked a lot about how freedom is such a core element of democracies in America, and I think we all agree on that. But he also talked about the importance of having healthy boundaries, you know, our freedoms.

Matt McIlwain: And so well, what are those boundaries? How kind of narrow, how wide are they? And do they shift a little to the, you know, left or a little bit to the right in terms of the boundaries that were kind of acceptable to, you know, kind of experiment within and having our freedom in. And you know, there's sort of these famous stories of, [00:07:00] you know, uh, research done of kids that are, you know, out in the playground.

Matt McIlwain: And if there's no fence around the playground, you know, they can all kind of congregate closer together, but if there's a fence, then they'll run all over the place. And it's

Leigh Morgan: Wow.

Matt McIlwain: that freedom within healthy boundaries that I really got exposed to, uh, under Professor Inger,

Leigh Morgan: That's a great concept.

Matt McIlwain: you know.

Leigh Morgan: It actually does set a, a nice foundation for thinking about political discourse and debate about what are those boundaries, whether it's free speech or what have you. I mean, that to me, that's a healthy place for us to play and have dialogue. So, well, yay for this. What, what's your professor's name?

Matt McIlwain: Professor Inger, Vincent Inger.

Leigh Morgan: Vin Vincent Starer. So tha thanks to him for helping to launch and for you actually, I, I think to focus a lot of your passion, um, as you have. So, and, and look at you now. I mean, you gave up the engineering. I mean, you're parents must be kind [00:08:00] of proud.

Matt McIlwain: Yeah, no, it's funny 'cause uh, I did, I did study both government and economics and, uh, you know, economics can be a little bit academic in, in college. Uh, but, uh, I ended up starting my own business in college and then going on to, you know, getting some exposure to the world of finance and, and, and whatnot.

Matt McIlwain: So, uh, it was a good, it was a good foundation.

Leigh Morgan: Yeah. Well, it's neat to hear that background. Um, and you do, you have strong views about the role of, uh, role and structure of government, which you've been studying and thinking about, and then I. As an advocate and community leader, um, for for many years, you also have some strong views about economic policy, inclusive of tax policy, national debt, government effectiveness, et cetera.

Leigh Morgan: Not unlike many of us, but based on the issues that you've been outspoken on and as an advocate for, um, one might assume you identify as a libertarian [00:09:00] or fiscal conservative, but how would you describe your political and economic orientation?

Matt McIlwain: Well, I, I do, um, towards the fiscal conservative, uh, framing. Um, I, I kind of like this idea of conservative innovator. Um, and so, you know, what does that mean? Uh, you know, the, the whole idea, uh, mean if you look in like biology, right? You know, uh, you know, and, and you kind of dig into to, to the genome.

Matt McIlwain: The genes that are conserved are the ones that have. You know, remained not only constant within a particular type of, you know, species, but are present across species. So there's something about those genes that they are relevant, you know, even in a world of natural selection and evolution over time, that they persist across a lot of different species. Presumably that means there's something good and there's been something learned by the system [00:10:00] to keep those. On the other hand, um, you know, we're always in a state of need of, uh, of reform and innovation and really adaptation to what's changing, you know, in our society, whether it's at the most macro levels, uh, you know, in terms of sort of geopolitical realities or economic levels, or, you know, in the time we live in now, we have one of the most interesting and, and disruptive forces around innovation, which is, you know, artificial intelligence and applied ai. And so I think that if you are just being a conservative, you're gonna get, you know, you're gonna overlearn from history. And not be open to what needs to be adapted and reformed and innovated upon as society changes. If you're just kind of an innovator without boundaries, as we were talking about before, um, you know, that can lead to, you know, chaos or even anarchy at the extreme.

Matt McIlwain: Um, and so I, I think, you know, you just can't have disruption for disruption's sake, whether [00:11:00] that's in, you know, kind of in the tech world that, as you say, you know, working at a venture capital firm, you know, it's our whole belief that, you know, there's always gonna be opportunity for new companies that will ultimately try to, uh, both expand the pie with innovation, but also take share from the incumbents.

Matt McIlwain: In other words, disrupt the, the, the now longstanding incumbents.

Leigh Morgan: That's helpful. Metaphors that you, you've used around, um, thinking about DNA and DNA that has persisted and endured in us over time. There's something inherently strong that self perpetuates despite lots of environmental influences and that sort of thing. Where have you seen in your own, uh, economic or political life, where have you innovated in your own beliefs?

Leigh Morgan: Because I, I know that's who you are, you not as static person and yet you [00:12:00] have really some strong core fundamental beliefs. But I'm just curious about the, the innovator side. As you think about the last, you know, from college to now, where have you adapted some of your views or yeah. How do you think about that?

Matt McIlwain: Yeah, I think, um, of the areas that I've been, uh, you know, thinking about and wrestling a lot with, and I, and I, I don't know, you know, if we, we have a, a kind of a clear consensus of what's best here is I. You know, the founders of the United States, you know, you know, established, you know, the, the, you know, the, the Declaration of Independence and the, and the, and, and ultimately the Constitution, um, you know, in a very, very different time, you know, kind of economically geopolitically, you know, kind of technologically. And, and one of the, and it's, and this is the place they were at, is you, it came about from a bunch of, you know, um, [00:13:00] states, right? And there was a big emphasis on states' rights. And I'm a huge believer in that as a core principle. But you also have to ask the question is sort of where should things be decentralized and where should things be centralized? Um, and so for instance, you know, uh, you know, I think that if we trusted the governmental systems right, we would probably all agree that there's probably a. More efficient ways at a federal level to do certain things. You know, you know, around administering areas like, you know, Medicare and Medicaid, for example.

Matt McIlwain: Just to take that as an example or other kinds of, you know, federal benefits. I. Um, but because of our history with state's rights and, and, and even beyond that kind of local rights and response, we push the government as down to the local level as you can. I think it's hard to have a, you know, kind of a constructive debate and discussion around, well, what could we do now?

Matt McIlwain: And, you know, you know, one area of how we administer government, like we all, I think would [00:14:00] agree that there's certain kinds of policies and programs that that make sense. I mean, let, let's take education as another example. Um, and so here we have education, which, you know, you know, should start in the home and be expanded in the community.

Matt McIlwain: And then there's, you know, over the last a hundred years, this idea of, you know, public schooling that became much more formalized. Um, and, you know, does that get all administered at the local level? You know, what's the role of the state level? What's the role of the federal level? And I think those are areas that I'm personally still teasing out.

Matt McIlwain: I mean, when you can now have. You know, incredible learning in, in the form of things like Khan Academy or, you know, there's a lot of things in the world of applied AI that can become increasingly personalized and customized learning. Um, and so I love the

Leigh Morgan: Yeah.

Matt McIlwain: of local, uh, but I think there's probably a few more places we could be more efficient if we

Leigh Morgan: Yeah,

Matt McIlwain: national standards.

Matt McIlwain: So that's an area I've wrestled a lot with, as you can

Leigh Morgan: yeah,

Matt McIlwain: on it.

Leigh Morgan: [00:15:00] yeah. And actually it's so helpful because you mentioned even technology, which you know tons about, right? I mean, this is your life. You wake up and learn and invest and keep learning about technology and machine learning, and there's. Um, I'm doing some work with, uh, president Michael Crow at Arizona State University and they've been, uh, leaders in online learning methodologies

Matt McIlwain: Yes.

Leigh Morgan: we know a lot about how tutoring actually really helps

Matt McIlwain: Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan: helps so much, but to hire tutors for college students, it's cost prohibitive.

Leigh Morgan: And now we have these AI technologies where personalized learning. So I think that's kind of a tool and some hopefulness that I have and it's clunky now and all that sort of stuff. But it's interesting to think about how some technologies might help us bridge the tension that you just described.

Matt McIlwain: Yeah, and I love the idea. I think one of the big positives of the system that we have in [00:16:00] America, you know, with state, local, federal government is you can run a lot of experiments at the local and federal level and then learn your way. And so I like that bottoms up piece. I think that's super important. And then it's like, well, what and when does something become, you know, kind of a standard? I think what we're, you know, seeing right now in the current. Um, you know, kind of, uh, you know, sort of federal level, sort of new views and new approaches that are going on is that, you know, our federal government does provide a lot of resources to a lot of the experiments that are being run at the state and local level.

Matt McIlwain: And so there again, you get asked the question, how much oversight

Leigh Morgan: Yeah.

Matt McIlwain: federal government have on what can and can't be done with those resources that then are allocated at the. and local level. And I

Leigh Morgan: Yeah.

Matt McIlwain: time of, you know, I know it's all, all uncomfortable for all of us, but I think it's a very interesting time of experimentation that I hope we can all step back and objectively say, well, what are we gonna learn?

Matt McIlwain: And, you know, you know, from that, and I'm thinking more about kind of things [00:17:00] related to government efficiency and you kind of, the, the role of the executive branch and its functions here. Not, not really the tariff stuff per se, but more like the doge for lack of better term. And, um, you know, I, I'm curious to see, you know, how that develops. 'cause the other thing that is probably not talked enough about right now is what I call the 36 and two problem, which is $36 trillion of debt that we have as a country. And then who. Owns that debt and ex expects us to service that debt all around the world, including countries like China that own a lot of it.

Matt McIlwain: And then, and then we have, you know, a $2 trillion annual deficit, which is not only adding directly to that debt at the moment, but it's also adding to the, um, the interest payments. And there kind of becomes this vicious cycle. I mean, you know, conservative innovators, like virtuous cycles, uh, flywheels if you wanna use that term. [00:18:00] Uh, and so I think that, uh, we've got, uh, you know, we, we gotta get through this 36 and two problem. Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan: a, it's a, it's a big thing. And my own sense of that is that, um, there's not enough, there's lots of discussions about the debt. Uh, not enough, I don't think on kinda more progressive sides. That's my own and where I would be and consider myself an very, very independent minded progressive. So yeah, I really hope that there's conversations about that.

Leigh Morgan: It's a very fluid time. Um, but, but I'd love to dive in on actually a, a topic, right? Because I. Um, to help listeners really understand as a conservative innovator, how you think about tax policy. And, um, I'm really interested in so-called wealth tax approaches, which, and you've written a lot, you've spoken a lot, you've a lot of strong views about, um, can you give us a, your [00:19:00] take?

Leigh Morgan: Uh, I, I think most of my listeners are gonna be mostly center or identify a little more on center left. My hope is that my listeners actually really expand broadly because this is a forum for deep understanding. Tell us a little bit about your approach to wealth tax policies and we have one right now in Washington state that's making its way

Matt McIlwain: Yeah.

Leigh Morgan: through the legislature.

Matt McIlwain: Well, I think there's kind of, uh, there's kind of wealth tax narrowly defined, and then there's sort of what are the set of taxes on capital that are slightly more broadly defined, you know, so capital gains taxes is, you know, to kind of expand it, uh, or, or even income taxes at some level. Um, in my, uh, kind of core beliefs are, uh, you know, kind of, you kind of zoom out and say. You know, the government's gonna need a certain amount of resources and we can debate how much those resources are to do the jobs of government. And there are many important jobs that the government, [00:20:00] federal, state, local level, are uniquely qualified or capable or required to do. Um, and then there's another question about how well they do the, that job in terms of how well they're spending dollars and resources and et cetera.

Matt McIlwain: So start with that and then on the side okay. Of like, how do we kind of go about what are the mechanisms, what are the tax mechanisms we use to generate that revenue? I generally believe that sort of pro, you know, kind of investment, pro consumption, pro, um, know, sort of, you know, sort of flatter structures. Create a bigger pie, create more revenue, and, and, and, and generally speaking, uh, you know, the vast majority of that revenue comes from the people that are most successful, um, you know, in the system. so the, you know, the example of this, and we'll get to wealth tax in just a second, but the example of this is Washington State, which in 2010 had 26 [00:21:00] billion in what they call the biennium budget of, of revenue for the state. Um, and there was a proposal to create an income tax. And I got involved with saying, I don't think this is a good idea. We've got a revenue tax, that's a consumption tax, right? We have sales taxes, we have property taxes, we have, you know, other usage taxes. And in the end it got defeated. But here's the punchline. Our tax revenues over the last 15 years grew from 26 billion to 75 billion. You know, uh, over 175% growth when our population grew 15% in the state. So, you know, clearly way, way more revenue generation with that kind of a strategy. Um, and so now what's interesting is, you know, you actually had a tax, you know, uh, you know, budget surplus of over $10 billion a few years ago in Washington state.

Matt McIlwain: But then the kind of spending all comes in and now they're saying, oh, well we don't have enough, you know, revenue, tax revenue, so we need a new idea. And then one of those new [00:22:00] ideas is a wealth tax. And the challenge on the wealth tax is, you know, somebody who's generated wealth has already paid taxes on that wealth, you know, in terms of, you know, they. They sold a company, they, um, they, they, they saved, you know, their income, which their income of course was taxed, you know, at the federal level and d different ways at, at the local levels. You know, even when they spend it, they get taxed on sales taxes. So now this idea of being a good saver and that, and or providing those resource to our invest in growing businesses and contributing, you know, to other places, you know, with your savings, including nonprofits, I might add, you know, are, is it really advised to tax that? Um, and what does that encourage? Well, it doesn't encourage saving, it encourages spending, which maybe that's, you know, good just for, you know, kind of current day economy. But I don't think it's good in the long run in terms of the, back to my 36 and two problem, you know, kind of, you know, you know, best interest of sort of the economy writ [00:23:00] large.

Matt McIlwain: So I'm not a fan of wealth taxes. Um, and one other thing I would say is that some, so often the focus of tax ideas like that. On the people that have now become successful. Um, and I would eventually, both you and I in our lives, probably beyond our wildest imaginations, be, you know, became successful. But it's really about the new risk taker who's starting a small business or starting a a, a, you know, a a, a nonprofit or whatever it might be.

Matt McIlwain: Um, and I think you really gotta make sure that the incentives are aligned around that kind of innovation and risk taking that's gotta continue to go on in society.

Leigh Morgan: That's helpful to, to hear you lay out your approach. And I wonder, um, what do you say about proponents of wealth tax policies? And I wanna acknowledge you, you started out by saying, well, which one, how are structured? Okay, so we're kind of taking some [00:24:00] leeway here. Uh, but in general, uh, proponents would say, well, um, the highest income highest, the wealthiest among us actually have a low among the lower tax rates because wealth, the wealthier 1%, 3%, their wealth comes.

Leigh Morgan: Majority not from income, actually from investments, and the tax rate for capital gains is 25%. It's not 40%. And if you're low income or middle income, you're getting taxed actually at a higher percentage of your overall wealth, which tends to come from income, whether it's hourly wages or you're making a hundred K somewhere.

Leigh Morgan: And I wonder what you would say to that criticism.[00:25:00] 

Matt McIlwain: Yeah, no, I think it's, well, it's, it's good to understand the different, you know, criticisms, you know, of, of anybody's point of view, and then sort of have a respectful conversation, which I, I, I is what I've always loved about our conversations

Leigh Morgan: Yeah.

Matt McIlwain: I think, you know, um, you know, kinda the first element there is that, you know, wealth was already taxed, know, and, and so then it's a question of what are you motivating or incenting, you know, those folks to do with it. And, and you know, if they take their capital and they invest it at risk in, um, you know, businesses of different types and, and, and, and, and activities in their community, you know, it could be, could be, you know, arts or it could be, you know, a, a, a technology startup, or it could be a, a small restaurant or whatever it is.

Matt McIlwain: They're putting that capital at risk. Um, and they may or may not get a return on it. And if they get a return on, you know, kind of this kind of, you know, kind of [00:26:00] capital, you know, it's, you know, you know, out of kind of an equity gain, then it's a, it's a, it's a capital gain. It's also only a different rate if you've held it long enough. And so I'm not only putting capital of mine that's already been taxed at risk, but I'm also making it at risk and for an illiquid amount of time, several years, you know, you know, at least a few years in order to be able to get, you know, the, that long-term capital gains treatment. And so if we think that that is generally good for a society to have these longer term mindsets, be willing to put capital at risk over time to try to generate the next, um, you know, group of companies and ideas and products, then I, I don't think it's all that, you know, misguided, you know, or really misguided at all for, for there to be a preferential treatment on how you tax long-term capital gains.

Leigh Morgan: True. Understand. I understand your views and one of the things Matt, I'd like your [00:27:00] take on is my observation that there's tends to be starkly different language. Used by folks who are in favor of what I would say more progressive tax policies, which is the more you make, we should tax some of that. And I'm not, you know, this is like the extreme wealth.

Leigh Morgan: And then by opponents that we tend to have, um, different words used. So folks who are in favor of these more progressive schemes would say, Hey, there's just a lingering, um, wealth gap of stark income inequality and we need to solve for that and create ways that we can have programs that are well funded.

Leigh Morgan: And again, you and I have lots to say about effectiveness of programs, so let's set that aside. There's just seems to be more attentiveness [00:28:00] to dealing, helping the poor, helping folks who are struggling, who actually, you know, are trying to get where they can actually get a small business loan so they can start that small business.

Leigh Morgan: Right. They're really struggling. And then the, there tends to be language, I'm, I'm generalizing here, but more around fairness and facts and figures and don't scapegoat the wealthy. 'cause folks have worked hard to earn what they have. Do you have a sense of different, just like shifts passing in the night and, and do you, do you have that sense as well of folks debating tax policy?

Matt McIlwain: I think, I think you're, you're absolutely right to point out that, you know, people frame these discussions and debates, you know, sometimes, you know, you know, in hopes of favoring their points of views on policy, and, and I think you also can create narratives, which is. You know, uh, and again, that's a, everybody creates [00:29:00] narratives.

Matt McIlwain: I'm not saying one group does and one group doesn't. Um, I do think though that, um, I, I'll go back to one point and then add another, that what you know is key here is not about the people that took the risks and, and, and oftentimes sacrificed a lot to become successful. You know, it's notable. You think about, you know, the Larry Ellisons and Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos is of the world. A lot of these, you know, certainly Elon Musk, they ca came, they grew up in very modest, hard, often, you know, kind of strange or, or adopted or estranged from family and parent kind of situations. These were not easy circumstances. And yet they had a determination and a, and, and a persistence that allowed them to ultimately become very successful.

Matt McIlwain: And I think you want to create a system that encourages, actually gives people that hope, you know, that they can be the optimist as, you know, I tend to bias towards, um, in the system. The other point that I would say is, you know, one [00:30:00] of the things I actually like about the nonprofit ecosystem in America, which I, I don't know exactly how that world works as well outside of America, is that if you're doing a good job as a nonprofit, you at Attack attract more, you know, donations and more support, you know, from philanthropy as well as from research dollars and other, uh, other places. And it's kind of healthy that if, if you're not successful as a nonprofit, you tend to kind of go out of business. And so I I, I think that that you, because you have this, you know, dual customer base, the, the people you're serving with your nonprofit as well as the. Donors and grantors that are, you know, you're trying to go get capital from.

Matt McIlwain: And what I, I note then is that, you know, I think we wanna, kind of, uh, encourage people that have been successful to be very, very generous of heart and generous of wallet and, and, and, and generous of time. And I think a lot of folks are, [00:31:00] and you know, for instance, we talked about, you know, I mentioned Jeff Bezos.

Matt McIlwain: You know, as you and I both know from being on the board of the Fred Hutch, know, maybe 12, 14 years ago, Mike and Jackie Bezos is Jeff's parents, uh, who put a very little bit of money at risk into their son's startup right at the beginning. You know, um, they gave a gift to, to help advance immunotherapies at the Fred Hutch. And the Fred Hutch was very good stewards of that gift. It was, you know, tens of millions of dollars. And then, you know, you know, more recently, three years ago that Mike and Jackie gave $750 million the largest gift in the history of cancer research to the Fred Hutch because they had been good stewards and they thought that they could do more in terms of the prevention and, and the precision medicine.

Matt McIlwain: We were talking about DNAA little bit ago that can help really find durable cures for more and more cancer.

Leigh Morgan: Yeah.

Matt McIlwain: I, I like that model,

Leigh Morgan: Very generous. Yeah.

Matt McIlwain: and, and, and the [00:32:00] competition around, you know, nonprofits trying to be good stewards of the dollars that they receive from different sources to go advance the different areas of, of, of philanthropic, of

Leigh Morgan: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's, that's really helpful. And I, I do wanna lift up the, the Bezos Family Foundation and Mike and Jackie, and then the entire, you know, Jeff's a part of that, um, of the generosity. And there's, there's so many examples of that generosity. And I, I really want to encourage all of us to not, well, if you're wealthy,

Matt McIlwain: Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan: get to be a scapegoat.

Leigh Morgan: To me, that's a, that's a ticket to nowhere.

Matt McIlwain: Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan: care about is kind of this juicy middle, right, of what, what should the, what should our tax policy be? And, you know, you mentioned nonprofits. I've, I've had, you know, uh, some time working in nonprofits and

Matt McIlwain: Yes. You have.

Leigh Morgan: you know, there, it, it's so interesting because I, I'm not not sure, I agree with your [00:33:00] assumption that the, the best nonprofits attract more capital.

Leigh Morgan: 'cause there's just so much research that says if you have a nonprofits run by a woman or a person of color, or if their board is a majority of, uh, a woman or a person of color, they literally do not attract the amount of capital. It, it is just, it's just, it's just a, a consistent reality. And so you say, well, are these people less capable?

Leigh Morgan: Are they, are their outcomes poorer? And the answer is, I would say no to the first, a mixed bag everywhere. Right? So there's, it's likely to have good or bad. Leaders, regardless of the shape or form of you're born. So that, so that's a tricky one and I think it gets back to kind of this notion of what's really, how do we mitigate this unconscious or conscious bias that tends to happen?

Leigh Morgan: I think it's mostly unconscious. Um, so, so that would be interesting. I also get

Matt McIlwain: Yeah,

Leigh Morgan: [00:34:00] it, you know, so then you think, well how do, what, what is that about? And I think that's something, I know you care a lot about it because you care, you've been an advocate for DEI, whether you call it that or not, for getting more women on boards, for people of color, on boards through your work, personal advocacy and at your firm.

Leigh Morgan: So I know you care about these things, but I wonder if we can, um, kind of shift a little bit to this notion of stereotyping people, which we both agree it's bad. One of the reasons I created this podcast is to be able to discuss. Events, right. Uh, in ways that transcend this often polarizing tone of discords, we don't blame and shame.

Leigh Morgan: Uh, I know you've been a, a target yourself as a community leader of activists who, you know, have literally put you on websites and gone around in public spaces saying some pretty icky things about [00:35:00] you. And, um, I, I was, became aware that was horrified. Um, myself, I've shared that with you. What was it like to be targeted, uh, for your views in ways that were blame and shame?

Matt McIlwain: Well, I, I, first of all, I appreciate your friendship and countless other friends that across the broad, you know, spectrum of political ideas, um, uh, you know, when that took place and there was a group of us that were kind of highlighted because we had these points of views on tax policy. And, and you know, I think that it's, there's lots of room to debate and discuss, you know, tax policy and again, the kind of what are the different sources of revenue?

Matt McIlwain: What are the best sources to generate the revenue that government needs to run the business of government, as it were. And, you know, and then, uh, you know, we can, we can all debate that. Yeah. So I think it was unfortunate. Um. I, you know, for me, uh, [00:36:00] I think those kinds of things are misguided because they stifle a, a, the better debates and discussions. And, and so I think they're counterproductive wherever they come from, you know,

Leigh Morgan: Yeah.

Matt McIlwain: And I don't think it's, there's any, it's not really a political set of labels, it's just, it's more maybe personalities and styles of things. I, I don't think that that helps. Um, and so if we wanna have kind of respectful, honest, you know, collegial debates and discussions, there's not room for those kinds of tactics.

Matt McIlwain: Um, no matter where they might, what, what direction they might come from. Um, and so, you know, what I, what I've tried to do is have, you know, authentic relationships with friends, uh, and, and understand, try to seek to understand their points of views. And,

Leigh Morgan: Yeah.

Matt McIlwain: um, things that I deeply believe, I, I know I'm far from perfect in, in living this out, you know, every day is the idea that curiosity is an act of humility. And so people are like, well, what, what do you mean by that? [00:37:00] And it, what, what it means. Like if you're not genuinely curious, which means that you're actually humble enough to say, I, I, you know, I may be right, I may be wrong. You're not gonna learn something new. I mean, you're just gonna be sort of

Leigh Morgan: Yeah,

Matt McIlwain: in your ways.

Matt McIlwain: And one of the other ways I sometimes articulate this, I think it's great for people to have strong convictions loosely held, know, you know, uh, you know, be willing

Leigh Morgan: like that. Yeah, I like that. Yeah.

Matt McIlwain: Have an openness to new facts. You know? Now you mentioned this, you know, thing about non, you know, nonprofit leaders and you know, how, you know, kind of their, their, their ethnic or background or gender might, you know, lead to the research shows it, it does lead to, you know, less ability to attract others.

Matt McIlwain: I haven't seen that research. I, I was like making a note to myself. I wanna learn more about that. That's genuine curiosity.

Leigh Morgan: Yeah.

Matt McIlwain: you know, having, you know, my, my daughter has a, a, a successful podcast that she and another young woman host [00:38:00] and, you know, they would point out that, you know, there's like less than 5% of, you know, podcast, I think, or have women hosts.

Matt McIlwain: Well what's up with that? You know, I mean, there's no constraint to having a podcast. So again, and maybe that's improved since they started it five years ago, and I hope it has. Uh, but you know, that was part of their motivation for starting this tech podcast

Leigh Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Matt McIlwain: young, super talented women.

Leigh Morgan: Well. Uh, I, I'm, I'm laughing because I did some research before I launched this podcast and I found the same thing. And I thought, you know, who takes space in, in public discourse

Matt McIlwain: Hmm.

Leigh Morgan: influences what the discourse is, what the content is, and also what is not. And I literally had to look in the mirror and say, Lee, you have some strong views.

Leigh Morgan: One, you know, political views. I also just think the world is in, we're in bad shape, and that there's way more love and [00:39:00] kindness in the world. And that it's the latter, which is linked to this notion of being able to be curious. Right? And then that's where we need to build bridges, right? So I, and I've met your daughter.

Leigh Morgan: She's amazing. So, so anyway, and Matt, you are the second man I've had as a guest. Because I, I committed to having an overwhelming majority of my guests be women again, for that reason is that I wanna radically rebalance

Matt McIlwain: That's

Leigh Morgan: where narrative is and you know who, who, who influences. I'm not wanting it to be all just women.

Leigh Morgan: We, we'd have some bad outcomes there. I just want this rebalancing, I think is good for society in lots of ways. So, um, so anyway, I'm glad to have you,

Matt McIlwain: Great.

Leigh Morgan: here, and it's because you're curious. That's what I like about it,

Matt McIlwain: And, and you know, you go back to like, I think that, you know. You wanna encourage debate and discussion, and you're doing that through this, through [00:40:00] this podcast. Um, and I think that that was what was counterproductive about some of those tactics that we, we talked about before. And I think it also kind of upsets and concerns others that are close to you. And I think it also can lead to, you know, you know, folks that maybe are not thinking clearly, how are they gonna react to that? Um, so I think that there are some risks if you, you know, have that degree of, you know, sort of vitriol as it were and that, you know, can, uh, can lead to some really, you know, unfortunate and counterproductive things again, uh, kind of across the political spectrum.

Matt McIlwain: So, um, that's kinda my, uh, approach on it. And, you know, I think happily those things have, have moved on now and, and, and actually through, uh, a few constructive conversations on my part, you know, with some of the people involved with that, were they able to, to, uh, you know, get those things, uh, you know, removed?

Leigh Morgan: Yeah. So, and, and, and Matt you're mentioning removed again, there's this kind of website that was really targeting and gaslighting and, and stuff. And [00:41:00] you know, I always say when you have one finger pointing to someone else, there's three coming back to, to you. It's one of those lessons wherever, you know, my grandmother said that, or someone else, so Well, are there any examples of.

Leigh Morgan: I mean, we're having this conversation, you know, we haven't dived in super deep on the issues, but it's a beautiful forum for us to connect. Are there other places or spaces that you've created or experienced or been a part of where you've had really constructive conversation about, say, tax policy with people who come to the issue differently than you?

Leigh Morgan: Or, or is it, is there a dearth of that?

Matt McIlwain: Oh, I, um, I, I will give you another example. Uh, so I, I went to the Kennedy School. of government, uh, a while ago now. Um, and then more recently, [00:42:00] uh, you know, joined their Dean's council. And that's a great group of people. Uh, but as you know, one might imagine I probably on the more conservative, free market oriented side of, you know, kind of policy views, uh, you know, within that group.

Matt McIlwain: And so that's been a great group to have conversations with about, you know, these kinds of topics and hear and understand different perspectives. And I have a tremendous amount of respect for the new dean of the Kennedy School, a guy named Jeremy Weinstein, um, and some of the team around him. And so that's been, uh, a lot of fun to have respectful, you know, diverse discussions.

Matt McIlwain: And, you know, one other example is, you know, you know, I've worked with founders literally from every part of the world. I. You know, uh, you know, whether that's, you know, kind of, you know, uh, up and down, you know, uh, kind of the, you know, kind of the Asian coastline, uh, to India, to Pakistan, to Middle East, to all kinds of countries in Europe, south America, uh, you know, [00:43:00] on and on and on. Um, and, and so you get folks that have different world, know, life experiences and worldviews. And again, establishing that trust, maybe it was first anchored and trusting each other with, in our case, our capital and our time to help them build companies and them as founders to, you know, and so you build that trust, you know, and kind of a first principles basis.

Matt McIlwain: And then that opens up a trust dialogue on a lot of different topics. And so I'm thinking of, you know, several of the entrepreneurs I've had the honor of partnering with, and we've had some good lively debates and discussions about policy issues over time.

Leigh Morgan: I love, I love that it just reinforces that every day and in every part of our lives, whether it's conversations of building and scaling a great tech company, you can, we can find ways to connect, right? Because you have work to do and you're gonna go talk about the company and its potential and is there an investment and [00:44:00] evaluating the team.

Leigh Morgan: Uh, but I love your example of how when you are able to create those spaces, um, magic can happen. Listening, curious, curiosity can happen. So as we. Begin wrapping up our time together. I I have two last questions, and you kind of alluded to, uh, experiences you've had in your, in your last comments. Um, what advice would you give to listeners who want to build bridges across political or other dimensions of difference, difference at work in the communities or even in their families that maybe you haven't mentioned yet?

Leigh Morgan: What, what, what insights would you offer?

Matt McIlwain: Oh, well, um, you know, I think that's a great question and you know, I, I think this coming back to this idea of. You know, I think a lot of people have, you know, strong opinions, uh, you know, whatever those have been shaped by, uh, and, [00:45:00] and, and so, but approaching the context, whether it's serving together on a nonprofit board or, uh, you know, working with, you know, founders or community groups, um, and, and certainly family. I think that, you know, uh, you know, kind of stepping back, especially I think in the family context as our kids have grown up and they're all in their twenties now, and, and, you know, treating people with mutual respect, like the, the incoming mindset is mutual respect and a curiosity to learn. that I think leads to better, more authentic conversations where you actually can learn.

Matt McIlwain: One of the things I've loved, you know, you know, you know, and really more and more in the last, you know, set of years is the things I am learning from my children and. Whether that's what they're doing with kind of technology and, and, and, and experimenting with it and using it in, in new and fresh ways or what they're [00:46:00] seeing from their life experiences and, you know, areas where, you know, they may have a different point of view from me on, on a certain area of policy, but I think, you know, without having that, you know, kind of mutual respect, um, and, and, and sort of open, open-mindedness, you know, you, you, you don't, you don't even encourage a conversation.

Matt McIlwain: People just don't engage. And you know, I think I find at times that it's being available for that conversation too. you know, so often, you know, like, you know, I think what makes family stuff hard is, you know, so often you gather around a holiday or a big event, whether it's a happy event like a birth or a wedding or a stressful event like somebody in the family passing.

Matt McIlwain: And there's often way too many tensions going on. And so I, I had this experience recently actually with one of my, my. Family members, it was just like we had a weekend together and there wasn't one of those things. And it was some of our best richest conversations. So I

Leigh Morgan: Great.

Matt McIlwain: available,

Leigh Morgan: Yes.

Matt McIlwain: [00:47:00] you know, and, and especially for those that have, you know, children, I think that's one of the things that's tough is that, you know, when they're in the mood to have a deeper conversation, you've gotta just switch into, okay, I'm available now.

Leigh Morgan: That's such good advice. I love that advice. I'm giggling because, um, a previous guest I had, uh, Danny Fallon, who was the leader of the Emory School of Public Health, really, really, um, dynamic and effective leader on our podcast. We talked about the notion of when we reach our boiling point. That's not a good time

Matt McIlwain: Oh

Leigh Morgan: to try to have a conversation.

Leigh Morgan: And I mean, there's been times in the last few weeks where I was at that boiling point, right? And I could not engage. With the other person. Uh, I couldn't listen. Literally, our brain chemistry changes. You can't listen. You literally can't be curious. [00:48:00] And so that self-awareness, I think you're inviting us to be aware.

Leigh Morgan: You used the word being available. And so, um, I think that's really huge. And I love you talk about curiosity, humility, being able to listen and demonstrate respect. And if you're human, you can't all, you don't always, we aren't always able to access those,

Matt McIlwain: true.

Leigh Morgan: feelings.

Matt McIlwain: I love what you're adding to the concept of availability, which is both, know, I. You, you know, being available for the conversations when there's a good time and a readiness, but also recognizing when it's not a moment to be available because you're, you're not in the right state of mind.

Leigh Morgan: Oh God. Yeah. I mean.

Matt McIlwain: wise, really wise extension of that thought.

Leigh Morgan: It's wise, hard to do. And, uh, at, at certain, certain times, I have, uh, better or worse skills. The other thing that your comments make me think about is the value of diverse perspectives and driving innovation.

Matt McIlwain: [00:49:00] Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan: And my own view is diverse perspective. Pers our perspectives are informed by our life experience.

Matt McIlwain: Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan: It's not directly correlated, but it's informed by it. And so when we talk about DEI or diversity, I mean, to me it's just a no-brainer that where you have diverse perspectives, you actually get to the front of the starting line. However, that does not guarantee that you, you'll be able in a team setting to curate a space where diverse perspectives are actually a.

Leigh Morgan: Brought to bear, it just means you kind of have a better chance of getting better outcomes. And my own view is cognitive diversity is what really matters. Um, and it's certainly influenced by our life experience, but it's not directly correlated all the time. I, I don't know if you have a sense of.

Matt McIlwain: no, I mean, I, I, uh, the way I think about this is how [00:50:00] important diversity of thought is. I think you're right that there's an element of it that, you know, you know, kind of our life experiences are, are a powerful teacher and they do shape views, uh, on different issues and policies and ideas. So diversity of thought is, needs to be encouraged in, in, in and grown. Um, I think one of the interesting challenges for me from a professional context is, you know, as, as you become kind of, you know, one of the more senior people, you know, how do you avoid your perspective being weighed too heavily? I.

Leigh Morgan: Yeah, that's a tough one.

Matt McIlwain: And, and, and, and, and also trying to encourage some of the really talented and, and often different perspectives of some of your younger colleagues and partners, you know, to be, you know, kind of for them to speak up and to share their views and, and, and, and create a better dialogue. And, uh, I, I think that's, you know, an, an [00:51:00] an art and I, you know, for instance, we had, uh, you know, Satya Nadella from Microsoft, the CEO from Microsoft come and speak at our annual meeting of our, our investor group. And he does a, a terrific job of articulating that. Uh, but I know from friends that work with him closely at, at, at Microsoft and of course we know from when he was on the board with us at the Fred Hutch that he really lives that out.

Leigh Morgan: Yeah,

Matt McIlwain: he's

Leigh Morgan: he does.

Matt McIlwain: way of encouraging

Leigh Morgan: He does.

Matt McIlwain: perspectives.

Leigh Morgan: Yeah.

Matt McIlwain: I think that the, you know, the proof has been in the, uh, outcomes there at Microsoft

Leigh Morgan: Yeah,

Matt McIlwain: seven

Leigh Morgan: pretty good, pretty good outcomes.

Matt McIlwain: been a

Leigh Morgan: And, and yeah, and, and you know, I've seen you do that also, Matt, as chair of the Fred Hutch and, and, uh, it's neat to see. I, one, one last question before we wrap up.

Matt McIlwain: Sure.

Leigh Morgan: gives you the most hope about a future of more connection and [00:52:00] better understanding across divides in the world?

Matt McIlwain: You know, I, I, I, I'm gonna start this maybe in a little surprising way and then, and then, you know, kind of. Give it a turn. So, I mean, I think if we're all honest with ourselves, you know, we all have our, you know, imperfections I certainly do plenty of 'em. I could go, we could go on for a long time on, on that. so kind of that recognition that we all have our imperfections, I think should give us the humility to listen and discover and understand from other people, you know, who are also imperfect. and what my hope is, is that we can honestly listen to one another to try to find kind of the, the best outcomes. And I think there is a time right now in this world. Where, you know, we didn't get a chance to talk about it very much, but where we can a, allow for some [00:53:00] of the reasoning to be done by mach machines. And I think what that can do in its best, most hopeful world is it gives us all the opportunity to have more of that space, more of that availability, you know, to have diverse, thoughtful, creative discussions to try to solve the harder problems our society. so with that automated reasoning, I'm hopeful we will bring even more space to actually do creative problem solving.

Leigh Morgan: Well, I'm gonna sign up for that potential. I love it. Thank you. That's wonderful, Matt, I've so enjoyed our time together and thank you for a really rich and engaging conversation and sharing your insights. Thanks for being on the podcast today.

Matt McIlwain: Thanks for having me, Lee. I really, really enjoyed it.

Leigh Morgan: Super fun. Have a great rest of the day.