What the Heck Is Going on in Higher Ed? A Conversation with Education Leader Ann Kirschner, PhD.

The U.S. higher education sector is undergoing profound transformation — and not always by choice. At the intersection of political ideology, funding cuts, and rapidly shifting technologies, colleges and universities find themselves caught in a storm of scrutiny, resentment, and reinvention. From heated debates over diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) to questions about the value of degrees and the impact of AI, higher ed is at a crossroads like never before.

In this timely episode, I sat down with the remarkable Ann Kirschner — entrepreneur, academic leader, innovator, and storyteller — to explore what’s really happening across the landscape of American higher education, and what can be done to bridge divides and find practical, creative ways for higher ed to provide value to all students regardless of economic background or identity. Ann, who has served in leadership roles at institutions like CUNY, ASU, and Hunter College, brings not only sharp insight but a deep personal connection to the American education story.

Transcript

0:01

Hello and welcome to the. Space in between podcast. I'm your host Lee Morgan. Again, this podcast is for listeners who are fed up. Up with the hyperpolarized nature of the world today. And who crave. Craves spaces where current events can be discussed in construct. enlightening and delightful ways. Let's get.

Leigh: 0:30

The higher education sector is experiencing profound turbulence and transformation. Shaped by a number of converging forces that cut across political ideology and societal norms. It's fair to say that higher ed is caught in cultural and ideological cross hairs, particularly around DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion. Also arguments about what is and isn't academic freedom and free speech. We are also witnessing massive cuts and funding for science and research. We're also seeing shifting demographics of who our learners are. Slowing of enrollment in some places. And don't forget shifts in learning and teaching modalities as AI tools come into play. So today we will try to make sense out of all of this. It's a nutty time and we're gonna dive into some juicy questions like, is the sky really falling for universities? Was change needed before the new administration came into power? And where is innovation happening even during this transformational time? And we'll also talk about where we can bridge divides to ensure that the US maintains a cutting edge and world class higher education sector. I can think of no one better to help answer these and other questions than my incredible guest today, Ann Kirschner. Anne is an entrepreneur. She's an academic leader. She's an author of two books, and for sure she is an innovator at heart. She brings that mindset to her leadership roles in higher education and in her work also in the private sector. A few things about her bio, she was recently interim president at Hunter College in New York. She's also a senior advisor to President Michael Crow at Arizona State University. She is a Dean Emerita at City University of New York, and I think that's an incredibly cool title. She has a number of other appointments and I will probably ask her about being the person who was responsible for the first Super Bowl being live streamed. She has two other qualities that I really love and make her a perfect guest for the podcast. She has strong values and she shares that candidly. She also cares about bridging divides that keep us apart, especially when it comes to education. Anne, I'm so glad you're spending time on the podcast today. Welcome.

Ann: 3:09

I'm delighted to be here. Forgive my scratchy voice. I'm getting over a cold. That was a gift to me from my littlest grandchild. And I'm listening to your introduction. I'm thinking, wow, what an interesting person. I wonder who she could be. Doesn't feel like me. But thank you so much for, for all of it. It was lovely.

Leigh: 3:26

You are all that and more, and I'm so glad our paths have crossed. We both get to work with President Crow at a SU, which of course is such an innovative,, institution, and your career is so interesting. You've been a leader in both the private and public sectors, as I mentioned. And then you have this entrepreneurial mindset that you bring it's easy to pick that up in your LinkedIn posts and how you. Connect patterns from across, not just education, but the private sector. I wonder where does your passion for innovation and this kind of orthogonal thinking come from?

Ann: 4:01

I'm not sure. one thing that springs into my mind is that, I'm the daughter of immigrants. My mother came to this country after World War ii. She was a Holocaust survivor. So she arrives in New York in 1946. She doesn't know the language. She has no family. She has no,, financial means she's come to marry, a fellow she knew for a couple of weeks in, in Germany when he was a gi. and she has to reinvent herself completely. I think innovation is about reinvention. It's about saying, how do we do things in a different way? And it's about what you determine is risk worth taking, what your profile, is for, for new things., And. It's not always been, you know, maybe the best thing in the world, but, I love change actually. And I, love novelty. I love the thought of doing things in, new ways. So I think what's always driven me is, is curiosity, and novelty and a lot of that in the last, decades has been about how technology helps us do things in different ways. How we entertain ourselves, how we learn, how we shop, how we have relationships. So it's not about technology per se, but about these new ways of, of doing things.

Leigh: 5:32

Say a little bit about your work with the NFL. I gave a little teaser in the introduction, but you really brought to the NFL a sensibility about technology and how it could help that brand grow. So how, how did that come to pass?

Ann: 5:49

Well, so I had, left academics, with a, a fresh PhD, and came into an awfully cold job market for English PhDs. And then I, I answered an ad in the New York Times back when the New York Times had job postings. And I went to work in cable television and that led me from cable television, which was new at the time, to satellite television when that was new. And an entrepreneurial venture in satellite television that some friends and I launched. And then a friend of mine became, president of the NFL. he called me and said, you know, we're gonna start a,, satellite streaming business. Would you, come and run that? And I thought, oh, the NFL, are you kidding? I had never watched a game on tv. I'd certainly never been to a game. I couldn't tell you anything about, the rules of the game. But again, now you know, I love novelty. I love yes. And I also love things that make me laugh, Uhhuh. So when I went to go visit, this fellow, the first time at the NFL and I walked by all the helmets and all the logos, I thought, this is silly. This is, so funny that I would end up here. But I could also see the power of the NFL brand, was, incredibly strong then, and in some ways is even stronger now. So I put all my, reservations aside and I went to go work for the NFL as a consultant. And that led to the launch of NFL Sunday Ticket. Which went live in, 19 94. Oh, wow. Yeah, back in the day And then I went to go visit with a friend of mine, at MTV, who showed me. The first mosaic browser I had ever seen, and I'd always been interested in online. and I literally went back to the leadership of the league, And I said, I think this internet thing is important. And they had absolutely no idea what I was talking about, but they said, Okay, go do it if you think it's so important. So, they gave me resources. I had a small team and we were up and running for the NFL draft. you know, just in a matter of,, months. And. One thing led to another, and, I stayed for five years, seven Super Bowls. When I left, my children cried.

Leigh: 8:13

I bet you had some good swag. Exactly. Oh, my dude.

Ann: 8:17

They called, they called it glom at the NFL. I still have, more tote bags and towels and yeah. Water bottles than you'd ever, you'd ever wanna see. It was great, great experience.

Leigh: 8:27

I love your enthusiasm. PhD in, in English goes to the NFL, this curiosity, right? And then the piece that I heard you say was. The power of the brand, to really, light up hearts and minds, And what can happen when hearts and minds are engaged? You're cheering for your team, or the love of the sport. And so Then you made your way. Back to academia. I And here you are, a, thought leader, very much, a leader in university settings, thinking about education and where has it been, what's the current state now and where is it headed? So I'd love to transition and just get your 30,000 foot take, on everything that we're. Reading or listening to. There's not a day that goes by that there's not a new headline about some executive order or, funding cuts to the National Institute for Health, national Science Foundation, the education department. National

Ann: 9:27

Endowment for the Humanities. Yeah. You might as well name them all. They're

Leigh: 9:30

appropriate for an English major to mention that student unrest. How do you make sense of the scope and scale of the challenges that higher Ed is facing today?

Ann: 9:41

we can separate them into a couple of different categories and, the two most important ones I think for this conversation are about, academic research, and then, the everyday life, of a great college or, or university. I think those are different because I think that there were. Longstanding problems that predate the Trump administration, going back at least 20 or 30 years. I feel like I've been writing about them for at least that long. And those have to do with, graduation rates, with issues around affordability, with the dissociation between learning and then, careers. With, curriculum that's outmoded. These are all issues that have been around for decades. So we'll put those in in one bucket. And then in the other bucket, you know, after World War II, when the government was trying to figure out How do we, fuel the great competitive engine of the American economy? And, the government came to universities saying, how can we accelerate research? How can we assure American competitiveness for another, generation, this great partnership between. The American government and colleges and universities were, born and out of that has become extraordinary competitive, not only inventions, but, things that address our, everyday life. Whether it's the technology behind the smartphone or the technology of satellite transmissions. Or the incredible range of medicines that we enjoy. These are all things that came out of that, university government partnership and the power of the. US government to fuel those innovations is unparalleled. Philanthropy can't do it. The universities can't do it on their own. The private sector can't do it. It really is the power of the US government and it has repaid itself a hundred fold. for the everyday American. So, I would separate out those, And the, the issues relating to research are, coming down like a, toxic wave over the head of colleges and universities, as if that's the cure for this other bundle of issues. which have to do with, hmm. Lack of success in some areas. And I would add DEI in that, in that brew. So here's the big claw coming down to, destroy. American research and, the new knowledge created by colleges and universities, as if that's the cure for this other stuff that hasn't gone right at American colleges. And it's a, a disconnect to me completely. I don't see that one addresses the the other.

Leigh: 12:48

Why do you think that happened? It's very illogical to me. Doesn't make sense. You know, A plus B does not equal C on this topic. And regardless of where you are on the political spectrum, I think most people agree science is really important.

Ann: 13:08

Do most people think that science is really important? Well,

Leigh: 13:11

maybe what? Yeah. I mean, why, why the disconnect, the emotional disconnect. Like one, I, I used the word, it's illogical, right? But when change happens, when people stick to ideas or policies that actually give outcomes that are negative, often it's because there's some heart space or some passion that's lit up. And what, what do you think that is?

Ann: 13:35

You know, a lot of, a lot of American higher education has been about exclusion., It's been about, you're not good enough. You're not gonna get into our college. I mean, it's one of the reasons, you and I admire Arizona State so much is. The charter of Arizona State says, judge us by who we include and who we help, not who we exclude. So, we have the lowest percentiles of American demographics have been the worst served by higher education. Mm-hmm. They don't get in, or if they do get in, they don't graduate. And sometimes they graduate with debt and sometimes they graduate without debt and without jobs, or they go into jobs that didn't require a college education to begin with. So that's a, bad, a bad message. To send to, to people. So, you know, science, uh, ah, don't, tell me about science. Tell me about the fact that, you know, my, my kid is not gonna succeed because you've rejected, you know, him or her. So I, I think, in part we have brought this on by a, brand that prizes. Exclusion rather than upward mobility through higher education, which we know is the essence of the American dream. I mean, my mother's education ended in sixth grade when the Nazis invaded Poland. Wow. And when I graduated from. University of Buffalo and University of Virginia and Princeton University. That was always in my mind is how did that happen in one generation? And it happened because of, public education and a commitment to learning by American society and of course, by my parents and, my family thinking that that was an important thing, but it was made possible by, the American ethos of, upward mobility for people to, move up into, a better life, for them and their, and their children. And that, that promise has been, you know, it's not broken for everybody. But it's been broken for too many, and I think it has fueled this backlash against colleges and and universities.

Leigh: 15:55

I agree with you and I love your assessment of how we got here, that there's a disconnect between those with, lower socioeconomic. Resources and the return on investment one, getting into universities, public or private, it's hard to do. And secondly, then hard to afford, as you mentioned. And then coming out, being in debt. I mean, I went to graduate school and I had a student loan, and I was paying that off for 10 years and it just seemed like forever. And I was lucky I was able to, you know, pay that down and pay it off. For our listeners, can you share a little more about Arizona State and its charter?, You and I are both senior advisors there and we are very passionate about, president Crow and the team's vision, to have quality education. Scale so that we really flip on its side that, the prestige of a university is not about how many you exclude. Say a little bit more in case folks don't understand why college rankings are typically based on exclusion and not how many you include.

Ann: 17:02

Well, you know, the press is kind of obsessed with, Who gets into Ivy League universities and, a SU alone, probably serves more than the entire, Ivy League put together. I mean, it's, maybe four or 5% if that? I should know that percentage, but it, it's, it's very, very low. The overwhelming percentage of, students go to places like Arizona State or the City University of New York, where I've spent the last. 17 years. These are the places that educate, the majority of America particularly, first generation college students. But I think there's, there's much more to the Arizona State story. It's, it's excellence at scale. It's, measure me by who I include, not who I. Exclude. It's also about research that matters to the community. And so what are the, problems facing Arizona? Some of those are the same problems that are facing other communities in United States, whether it's about, climate change or affordable housing. Then the third part of it is. The commitment to, finding ways to, do this, in innovative ways because the old financial model for universities simply doesn't work. You can't just go back to your state legislature and say, give me more money. Because your state legislature, in all fairness, they have a lot of hungry mouths to feed. You know, they have to, they have to solve a lot of, problems, you know, ranging from healthcare to housing, to public safety, on the backs of, of American citizens. So education. Is critically important. But so are, some other things. President Crow has introduced a, mantra of, of entrepreneurial, energy into the university that doesn't say, here's my handout. To the state, you know, just fill it with money, right? But what can we do for ourselves? How can we be more self-sufficient? And I think that has unleashed a tremendous amount of, creativity, which has translated into. Sources that have then been plowed back, into the university and, you know, culture change. What, the old, um, is it Peter Drucker? the, uh, culture eats

Leigh: 19:23

strategy.

Ann: 19:24

Culture eats strategy for breakfast. Okay. Well, I cannot tell you how true that is. I

Leigh: 19:29

agree.

Ann: 19:30

Try changing the culture of an organization and it is really, really tough. And that's what I think the great achievement of Arizona State is that it has, so inculcated that, ethos of self-sufficiency. partnership with the government, partnership with the private sector. To move the university forward. And it's a, great model for the rest of the country.

Leigh: 19:58

It's a great model and I, I don't know as much about the city University of, New York, which you've been a part of. It is great to see that a lot of that's happening there. Again, this commitment to opening the doors, quality education for the masses, because we really need to level the. The playing ground and, we get better life outcomes, we get better social determinants of health. A key part of that is access to affordable quality education, which helps with ability to get jobs. So this is important for all people in all communities, not just those who directly benefit by having access that they wouldn't otherwise have. And so this disconnect between, Cuts that are coming out of the federal government right now. You described that as kind of a red herring of like cuts as a backlash to what I would call elitism, A lot of the universities like Columbia, Harvard, these are private institutions, right? Your thought. About this makes sense to me because it's a reaction to perceived elitism, You have lots of money, we're coming after you, And we're gonna accuse you of antisemitism and other things. I'm not saying that's not a, it's a part unfortunately, everywhere in our culture. But I feel like that's been used as a, bit of a wedge,, just to find a way to, to come out against, some of these universities. Do you see similar attacks on public universities?

Ann: 21:29

Oh, of course, of course. I mean, it's already happening at public universities. And, the elimination of, of perceived. DEI programs, it's a blunt instrument to say that anything that benefits one part of society, I mean, it could be medical research that aims at the problems of black Americans. Is, that DEI, or if we address. issues that touch on equities and education towards women, like the fact that so few women major in, computer science. So if we have a program to double the number of women in computer science, is that a verboten? Because it appears to be, favoring one gender over, over another. I mean, these are all, blunt attacks that. have to believe at the end of the day, people are not understanding that this is, where new knowledge comes from. I mean, I was thinking about this the other day about, ai. Most large language models, many of them that we use now in our everyday life, they scrape the internet, they scrape. Public sources of, information. Well, if we're not creating new knowledge, then

Leigh: 22:56

at some some point we're gonna max out.

Ann: 22:58

Exactly. Might as well stop talking about AI because AI's gonna be frozen in 2025. Yeah. mean, I'm, I'm being a bit hyperbolic and somebody's gonna write in and say, no, no, no, that's not how AI works. But, gonna freeze ourselves in 2025 as if everything that could possibly be discovered has already been discovered. We know that can't be true. We know that there are humanists and scientists and folks all over this country. Who are every single day creating new knowledge. That's what faculty, scholars, researchers do at colleges and universities. Who wouldn't want more of that? Mm-hmm. it's a blunt instrument and it's very blunt, incredibly damaging. One, when we think about the long-term implication of losing a whole generation. Yep. Scholars and researchers,

Leigh: 23:50

and I think this cuts across all communities. And you gave the example that young girls early in their learning journey, fewer stay in the sciences. And so that's partly where computer science is. And, if you're a, strong MAGA household in, in Ohio or. Louisiana or in Washington state and you have girls, bright young girls who wanna go into school. I would guess the parents really would like that. Their young girls, whatever age, to have as much support and encouragement to follow their gifts and their passions, which might include in the, STEM area and the sciences. But we know. That that tends not to happen, and so this is why there's programs that need funding to help encourage. Girls and to stay in the sciences I think that's a good example of, why all of us, all families in all communities should care about this. And one thing that I'm acutely aware of and because of, work at a SU and also at the University of Washington Medicine and at the Fred Hutch Cancer Center in Seattle is the, proposed cuts to indirect costs. could you share with listeners why cuts will threaten and undermine innovation and research.

Ann: 25:11

Well, you have a, a researcher in a lab. And, they win a Nobel Prize for their research and they, developed something like mRNA, which was the basis for, our covid vaccines. Well, somebody had to keep the lights on in that lab and someone had to. Give the researcher, a set of, beakers to, to pour their, pour their magic, stuff in. And, someone had to help the graduate students who were helping in the, in the research lab. All of that is indirect costs. And what, colleges and universities have traditionally done is, is assign a percentage of their grants from the government to pay for all of that overhead. And, did it need to be reformed? I have to say I was not fully aware until this debate began of how all over the map it is that it's 10 or 15% in some places and it's 40 or 50% in in other places. And was there adequate transparency? You know, probably not in all cases. So, could things have been improved? Should things be improved? A hundred percent. Yeah. So I agree. Make, make them more transparent. let's find out what really goes into those costs, and if they are bloated or, inflated. let's figure out what, makes sense. But you don't stop the research in the meantime. You don't, throw the baby out with the bath water. You don't pour the contents of that beaker down the drain just because you think you paid too much for it. I think many of us feel disruption is, akay. I personally, as I told you, yes, I like change. I like, I like disruption. But I don't think, you do it crudely, and I don't think you do it without compassion. And respect for institutions that have been incredibly generous to American life.

Leigh: 27:16

Thanks for, explaining that so clearly. I think it's one of these topics that, When talking heads will say, oh, there's so much waste that's happening, and these indirect costs are ridiculous and not needed. Actually indirect costs, it's like. Saying you bought a beautiful new home, but you don't have any money to have the heat on when it's cold or the air conditioning on when it's hot. But by golly, you have that house and aren't you lucky? And why don't you just be quiet and stop complaining and at the same time, I, agree with you. One of the things that is Brought to life is, could there be a way of calculating and implementing indirect costs that affords more transparency? To everyone, to taxpayers, to the federal government, to these institutions, et cetera. And, and I would guess that had we just looked there, there could be some really, good creative ideas. The other thing you mentioned at the top of our conversation that, philanthropy Adequate substitute for cuts to our basic sciences. And part of the reason is that philanthropies, such as the Gates Foundation, which is a huge funder of, science and innovation, they have. Tended to have low indirect cost rates relative to the federal government. So when we say, well, the Gates Foundation or the Ford Foundation or other foundations will pick up the answer's no, they're not gonna all of a sudden pay the same rate that the federal government did and does. And I think it's because of this historical pact. That we had, that the federal government has a vested interest in the United States staying at the cutting edge of innovation.'cause that drives economic value, that helps create jobs. It helps us stay competitive in our communities, whether it's a small town or. Or big city like New York.

Ann: 29:12

Yeah. And it, philanthropies don't necessarily invest in, basic research, which is, is really the government has been Yeah. The strongest. And, that's really the engine of research. it's a flywheel. It's one piece of it feeds into the other, and that's where the fact that undergraduates will be inspired by working in the lab with a graduate student and with a principal investigator, then they too will become. Researchers, and that's where the research, ecosystem really shines. And so you can't extract. One piece of that and then expect that the rest of it is, is gonna continue. We've already heard of many situations where,, undergraduates are expecting to move into graduate labs where their offers have been withdrawn. Yeah. Because the principal investigator has lost his or her grant.

Leigh: 30:13

Yeah. Yeah.

Ann: 30:13

it's, an ugly picture that does not need to be. fully painted. So let's, let's just turn the page and start again on this.

Leigh: 30:21

I like the idea start again. And this notion of recreating, it's so much a part of your family's history and in your legacy and current work as a leader. And so maybe we can just switch this up then of think about what's going well, what is going well in higher ed right now? Where is innovation thriving despite. The pressures that we just talked about. What thoughts do you have?

Ann: 30:45

So if you, develop kind of a heat map of the United States, from the point of view of highlighting where there's innovation, there's, bright lights everywhere across the United States. there's not a single college. Or university that doesn't have, a, couple of, faculty researchers or staff members who are not thinking creatively about how to do things more efficient, how to teach in more exciting ways, how to use. Technology, how to improve, student outcomes. It's happening everywhere. I think that the real strength of Arizona State is that it's been institutionalized from the top as well as bubbling up from the, grassroots. Yeah. And that really is, in my experience, quite. Unique. But something I think that needs to be modeled at, at lots of other places. I could single out a couple of other universities, university of Michigan, Northeastern, Northwestern, Berkeley, university of Pennsylvania. I mean, there are, good things happening everywhere. But there's not as much. a sense of the trends really coming to the fore as I would like to see, and I think that This overhang of the federal government has introduced, in some places a sense of paralysis. You know, like the administration is so busy.

Leigh: 32:09

Yeah. Fighting

Ann: 32:10

fires of, budget cuts in research and, scrambling to improve not only their, their student outcomes, but you know, the issue of antisemitism on college campuses is a very real one. And so, trying to figure out how to create a more civil society within their own campuses, that is real, it's a, heavy lift and it's really important one. So in all of that soup, innovation can sometimes take a back seat. I don't expect to see as much excitement, maybe as, we would like to have. On the other hand, every big,, company involved in AI they all have made big moves In education in just the last, six months to a year. I don't think there's gonna be any lack of, activity there. You know, same thing for Google and, and Microsoft. Yeah. So it, can be an exciting time.

Leigh: 33:05

1 area of innovation, I think is this, potential for public and private partnership around workforce development and upskilling. I. Because what we're seeing, and this will increase, but we see a lot of, companies, particularly medium and larger size companies that are trying to adopt AI tools to help with efficiency or help with their call center or drive. Innovation in some way, whether it's, customer facing or if you're a business to business company or, accounts receivable, right? As these tools come on, we need to have an employees who are able to understand them, deploy, execute, learn, and then optimize. And so the nature of work is changing. It's slow to change in some areas. It's fast changing in others, but universities, particularly ones like a SU that have massive capabilities and online learning. We're seeing a lot of conversations about how when students leave, they have skills, and then once they're in the workforce, ongoing training, can happen at a more successful and faster pace.

Ann: 34:19

we are in, a little bit in, in no man's land, I think at, you know, not, not to be Debbie Downer, but, we're a little bit at, the point where, there are lots of. College administrators and faculty who are uncertain, or downright negative about what, this all means. Mm-hmm. And is the end of Western civilization, as we know it, is. It, is it, cheating, taking over the, world. Students will no longer know how to read or write. There's a, spate of articles just in the last, week or two, right about. Actually, the one that amused me most was an article about students using AI to prove that they weren't using ai. I mean, seriously, how, how meta can you get? So, I think we have, a ways to go before we're in the mode where. We understand that this is simply the next

Leigh: 35:15

Hmm. Uh,

Ann: 35:15

I mean, it's a, huge sea change, but it's simply the next sea change in education. And of course, we want students to use AI because yeah, as you've just said, they need to come out being, ready to use it in the workplace because, from what I've read, 70, 80% of people in the workplace are already using ai. Yeah. Yeah. So, the genie is not going back in the, in the bottle. Yeah. But right now, 2025, we are in this no man's land as we're still trying to, trying to navigate it.

Leigh: 35:50

It's, it's like a interstitial time of Yes, yes. Some, some use cases, some experimentation. And, someone said to me, gosh, AI technologies are gonna be ubiquitous. They're gonna be everywhere. And I said, don't forget. Organizations are populated by humans, they're run by humans, and we humans tend to resist change. Which makes actually the experiment at Arizona State University, this giant university, it's taken, president Crow, he's been there two decades to change that ship. Right? And, and so it's amazing,

Ann: 36:23

There was a, kerfuffle a couple of weeks ago because one of the mayoral contenders in New York City, it happened to be Andrew Cuomo, his campaign was caught using some AI thing. I don't even know what it was for, but some, something in his campaign literature, was, AI generated the other opponents jumped on it. Oh my God. He's, you know, we are human. We are here to solve tumor problems. my buddy Julie Samuels, who runs tech, uh, NYC, wrote this wonderful, op-ed basically saying. Don't you realize that you should all be using ai? That this is, this is part of where government's gonna find new efficiencies. Yeah, for sure. New and new successes. So anyway, it's again, that, yeah, that no man's land.

Leigh: 37:10

it's definitely, we're in this, kind of nutty time, you know, and as we begin to wrap up our time together, I wanna make sure we, talk about. How do we bridge divides on the issues we've talked about? I think you and I have a certain set of experiences and a bias about the value of, research and education and the critical partnership between the federal government and, powering innovation right through a funding and support, which now is clearly being threatened and at the same time in order to find ways. To innovate. We really need to work with people who hold different views and who might be suspicious or harbor some resentments, towards higher education for the areas that it hasn't done well, that it's left certain communities and people out. So what have you learned as a leader of how. You've built bridges with people who might come to this from a different persuasion. What, pearls of wisdom would you offer to us about how to hold your views, but also find ways to build bridges?

Ann: 38:20

Boy, I wish I had the magic answer to, to that because we live in such polarized. Times. it's always about listening. It's always about putting yourself in the other person's shoes. It's always about not having a, a knee jerk reaction to, things and to be relentlessly kind and, open-minded in your demeanor even when. The other person you're talking to is not open-minded or, kind. I think we have to model that kind of behavior even if we don't see it around us. And so the only, words of wisdom I have there, are that you have to be prepared to. Hear things that are, challenging. last year was a really searing experience because it was really hard to get people to even be in the same room, because passions were so high. I think we're a little bit better this year. Uh, not that much better. I think it's gonna, I think it's gonna take time and I think, I think we need examples from the top.

Leigh: 39:32

Mm-hmm.

Ann: 39:33

that basically say how do we, how do we cross divide? So I think it's a challenge for every college president. I think it's a challenge to the president of the United States to model discourse that is, is what we would want our children to emulate.

Leigh: 39:52

That's a. Powerful image of trying to create kind and thoughtful and smart young people, what, what's, what do we wanna role model there? we've talked about President Crow. He does that very well, actually of working across, literally across the aisle. Another person who does that really well is Anari Cal at the University of Washington. I like to tell people that, if you follow her on Facebook, you'll know her political persuasion, okay? Mm-hmm. And she is. 100% authentic. And when she goes to the Washington legislature to let them know what's happening at the University of Washington to ask for money, republicans love her and part of the reason is she's a straight shooter. She doesn't pretend to have views that she doesn't, and they know where she stands. And she brings a, rationale for why the University of Washington, the entire system here serves all communities, much like Arizona State. It's very well known for its diversity. And I think, uh, president Co does that and there are many other leaders are out there. I know you do that as well, which is partly why wanted you here. And one last question for you. If you had a magic wand, you know, we have this kinda hyperpolarized world that we're in, but. You have Gandalf staff, right? But it's, Ann's magic wand for higher education transformation and innovation. What is one wish that you would want that can really help, higher education reach its fullest potential?

Ann: 41:26

I think we need new models in higher education. I think that the, march towards an undergraduate degree in the formats of majors and general education and, disciplines, I, I feel like it is, not the best model, and it's certainly not the only model that we should have for, this generation. And, and I don't see institutions experimenting with what that would look like. So my magic wand would show me a model that has all the values that we treasure and respect. Higher education, those values of, new knowledge and dialogue and creativity and innovation. All those, wonderful things that, the best college campuses, portray. But in new, in new formats. Mm-hmm. And, ways that ways that fit this moment, which calls for more flexibility. Uh. Hmm. More interdisciplinarity, more teamwork, all of those things that this moment really calls for. So I want examples of those new institutions.

Leigh: 42:43

I like it. Let's all hold that up as a potential. Sometimes when things are crashing down around us, established norms crashing, innovation can thrive and I'm gonna just hold hope that that's gonna happen, that this will be a, dramatic forcing mechanism for some of those, those new models. I'm struck by also your comments about bridging divides right around calling us to be relentlessly kind. Knowing that, we need to listen to one another, put ourselves in each other's shoes, and we need to do that even if the quote other side doesn't reciprocate. keep showing up and doing so doesn't mean we give away our values, it doesn't mean we can't. Take hard stands and I, I think that's what you're calling us too, especially at this hard time. Anne, thank you for being a relentless innovator, a creative thinker, and someone who's. Calling all of us to be our best selves and also calling, higher ed, to find ways to thrive despite, a lot of challenges right now.

Ann: 43:49

Thank you. I enjoyed every minute

Leigh: 43:51

of talking to you, Lee. I appreciate your time today. Thanks.

43:57

I hope you. Enjoyed this episode of the space in between podcast. If. If you did, please hit the like button and leave a review. Wherever you listen to the show. And check out the space. Space in between.com website, where you can also leave me a message.