An Indigenous Approach to Conservation - with Valérie Courtois

Indigenous-led conservation isn’t just a moral imperative—it’s one of the most effective strategies we have to protect biodiversity and live in reciprocity with our planet. In this episode of The Space In Between, I speak with Valérie Courtois, director of Canada’s Indigenous Leadership Initiative (ILI) and one of TIME magazine’s 100 most influential climate leaders in 2023. We explore how Indigenous guardianship, land “relationship” planning, and bold cross-sector alliances are reshaping conservation at scale—and how these approaches help us bridge divides and create life-affirming solutions for the future.

Transcript

0:01

Hello and welcome to the. Space in between podcast. I'm your host Lee Morgan. Again, this podcast is for listeners who are fed up. Up with the hyperpolarized nature of the world today. And who crave. Craves spaces where current events can be discussed in construct. enlightening and delightful ways. Let's get.

Leigh Morgan 0:29

In this episode, we explore the transformative power of indigenous LED conservation with a focus on the indigenous leadership initiative in Canada, and its inspiring leader Valerie COIs. ILI, as it is commonly known, was founded in 2013 to build a network of indigenous guardians who honor the responsibility and caring for the lands and waters of their ancestral homelands. The work of this organization alongside thousands of other indigenous initiatives and organizations around the world is vital to the health and survival of the planet and safeguarding the ecosystems that sustain all of life. Many indigenous practices, including sustainable forestry, hunting and fire management are being shared and adopted as much needed innovations in non-indigenous regions around the world. So we're gonna learn a little bit about that from Valerie. But first, let me tell you a little bit about her. In addition to her leadership of ILI, she is a very well respected and prominent global leader. I mean, I'm super honored. She's here with us today. She's often found in halls of power with heads of state and in communities all around the world, giving a TED Talk perhaps and influencing the shape and form of major climate agreements. She does this all with a refreshing, candor, humility, clarity of purpose, which I'm sure is part of the reason she has been named to the Time Magazine's 100 most Influential Climate Leaders List. She's also received the Shackleton Medal for the Protection of the Polar Regions and Stanford University's highest sustainability honor, which is called the Bright Award. For environmental sustainability. She's a wife, a mom, a grandmother and member of the INU Nation and lives in Goose Bay, Labrador in the far northeastern corner of Canada. She's told me many times, she is rooted at home in her territory with her family, and I'm glad to learn that she is spending a little more time here in the US with partners trying to expand and connect with others who share the same vision as ILI. Valerie, I'm so excited to have you here on the space in between. Welcome.

Valérie Courtois 2:59

Thank you so much, Lee, for having me. It's an honor to be here with you.

Leigh Morgan 3:03

And you're, in Labrador Now, how's the weather?

Valérie Courtois 3:06

Uh, it's a beautiful day. I don't know what it is in Fahrenheit. I can never do that conversion, but it's about 16 degrees, so, warm enough to be nice outside, but cool enough to wear a hoodie,

Leigh Morgan 3:18

We're approaching hoodie time, aren't we? Here in, North America, but I know you actually have some forest fires up near you. I've, I've been

Valérie Courtois 3:25

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan 3:25

reading about that. And ha, you had some really hot weather this summer, didn't you?

Valérie Courtois 3:31

Yeah, we did. I mean, every single province in what is now known as Canada has, been burning. This is on track to be our second worst year as a country, in recorded history around wildfire. And luckily in Labrador, we've. We haven't had too many strikes. We did have a couple scares near Churchill Falls, which is also where our major power plant is. That is where, there's a major hydro project that in fact, much of that power, eventually makes its way towards, the New England states. And power is part of New York. so we, we did have a fire that. lapped the edges of the power plant. But luckily our firefighters were effective. But, if you're looking at the news and you're looking at the island of Newfoundland, the Avalon Peninsula right now is not a great place to be. There are thousands of people evacuated. we've had firefighters from other regions. The Canadian military is responding. quite a severe thing. And when, for people who know the island of Newfoundland, you might also know that it's. It's called the Rock, because it is a, basically a giant rock in the North Atlantic. so it's quite striking for a rock to be on fire. Um, it does have good significant boreal forest on it. But I, you know, I've lived in the province for, over 20 years and I've, I've never seen anything like this. So, and of course we've had, a number of wildfires in, the western part of the provinces, Manitoba, declared two individual states of emergency, the province of Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia, of course, including fires near, that broke out just south of the community of Litton, which, was famous a couple years ago, it had the record for the hottest place in Canada then proceeded to burn down in a few hours. Unfortunately. So it is a reality for us. This, new climate reality that we're under. And it was interesting to see some of your Northern governors, writing a joint letter to some of our premiers, asking us, imploring us to, to have better forest management practices. Which is a bit of an irony for Canadians to hear because we're very aware that our forest practices are world leading. But this isn't a question of, simply, cleaning up the, the forest floor. This is a new management paradigm for us. And so, we're working on it. we're trying to find ways of, of not only responding better, but adapting our infrastructure and adapting our communities to be able to, to live with fire and, perhaps even bring back. what indigenous peoples call good fire, a managed way of, of bringing in fire and not waiting for disastrous conditions to lead to disastrous wildfire.

Leigh Morgan 6:23

if there's an upside is that through some of these extreme, weather events, maybe there will be some openings to really dive into, indigenous approaches for fire, management, which, have been working well for thousands and thousands of years and we're in a new day. With our climate. We really need to listen and understand, and I hope through our time together we can touch on some of those practices. Before we get started though, I, I wanna ask you about your work. You and I have had the I pleasure of working with one another through your partnership with Nero, which is an organization I helped to, found and scale a while ago. You have an incredible ability to be authentic you also have a way of having very strong opinions about bringing people around you and, building coalitions. Where does that sense of integrity and rootedness, where does that come from?

Valérie Courtois 7:20

That's a great question, Lee. I mean, I come from a family of service. My father is a Royal Canadian mounted police officer, who served, nearly 35 years, was part of founding the indigenous policing branch within the RCMP. wrote the very first national Suicide Prevention Strategy in Canada. So just kind of that. That real ethic of service. His mom, was the first social worker in our nation. She was all of four foot eight. uh, when my father was 14, he used to serve as, a bit of a, bodyguard for her while she had to do, some of the,, less pleasant aspects of social work. Things like removing children from families and those sorts of things. And, I have in my aunties and uncles, oldest aunt on my dad's side, was the first indigenous woman to, be president of the Quebec Nursing Association. You know, having gone to residential school, having gone to, all of those kind of instances and then becoming the head nurse of, the province, those are inspirations on my mom's side. My mom is, qua and her, father was the town manager, you know, her and, and her uncles and aunties all have, advanced degrees. My, godmother's the first woman in Quebec to have a doctorate in robotics. you know, Lee, it was kind of like, there is no question you're gonna do something that matters in my family.

Leigh Morgan 8:52

Wonderful.

Valérie Courtois 8:53

but it's also, I really believe that, strength comes from being who we are and being authentic. And there is something good and, interesting and fascinating and beautiful about. About imperfection and about just getting up in the morning and trying to be better than the day before and just, putting your shoulder in and leaning in and doing what you can. I'm a mom and I'm a grandmother, but I came to be in those roles,, without myself having, had children. my partner, had her daughter and, maybe it's from being a child of the nineties, you know, I remember when, Bill Clinton was elected and there was kind of a. must leave the world a better place than when you got here. Kind of ethic

Leigh Morgan 9:41

Yeah.

Valérie Courtois 9:42

And, and I still think about that every day is what can I do to make my mark that isn't kind of the classic, simply leaving my jeans behind, but also leaving a, presence and doing our best to, make sure that, that our time here on earth is, worthy of the gift that we've gotten of life. so yeah, that's, really where it comes from, Lee. And, you know, I'm far from, from any perfection. I, it is just really about, just being a good person, uh, really.

Leigh Morgan 10:18

I'm struck by how there's a daily sensibility that you have of, today what, how can I serve? And. How rooting that is for you in terms of then dealing with the ebb and flow of whoever you're meeting with. Because it, it really isn't common for most people to get invited to, dinner with heads of state or meet King Charles or these things, and that's a part of your life. It's not all of your life, but you, you are in and out of lots of places and I am again just struck by the how can I serve now and then this legacy that you're bringing forward with your, kin and your ancestors. So that's a helpful lesson for all of us.

Valérie Courtois 11:04

it's a real honor to be in those spaces, Lee, but that's not my natural habitat.

Leigh Morgan 11:09

I know. Yeah.

Valérie Courtois 11:10

and my

Leigh Morgan 11:11

Yeah.

Valérie Courtois 11:11

habitat is to be home, just enjoying time with family or to be, you know, at my camp on the George River, or to just be a regular person. I, you know, there's, there are many moments where I'm standing there and I'm like, how did the girl from Labrador get into this space? But it is, you know, I recognize the privilege that is, and I recognize. How important it is if you're gonna be in those spaces, then bring your best foot forward, because you are an ambassador, for yourself, for your nation, and, and for your interests. And so it's, it's really important to, basically suck it up and get her done, as we would say here.

Leigh Morgan 11:54

I like it. And you're trained as a forester as well. And I recall, we were in the desert in California together, and you gave me a, an incredible lesson about a tree what about this tree and it, the species, et cetera. And what, drew you to forestry initially?

Valérie Courtois 12:10

well, quite honestly, I, wanted to work in the environment. I always knew that since I was a kid, that my job was to work in nature. I had. natural affinity towards those sciences. I'm not a very good of math person. I did have also affinities in communications, which I knew would be helpful for those, for that kind of, thing. But to be honest, I, ended up in a forestry program because I wanted to skip school. And when the university would visit the high school to kind of draw us in, we could skip our classes to go attend the university presentation and.

Leigh Morgan 12:48

Wow.

Valérie Courtois 12:48

in an English class and, my professor was awesome, but it sometimes those classes were boring and I had already done my work and so I skipped the class to go listen to the university. And were talking about, you know, nursing and education and all the classic for, women in particular to kind of follow through. And I was barely listening to what they were saying. But underneath the kind of the pile of brochures, because I'm old enough, the universities used to bring brochures to these presentations. there was a green one that was kind of tucked underneath everything. And of course I was interested in that and I pulled it out and they talked about forestry. And I had originally thought. Well, maybe I'll go kind of in environment and, but this was, 1996, the professions within environmental sciences or environmental studies were, not really developed. There wasn't, like, I couldn't picture what someone who did environmental sciences looked like or what their regular day was, but I could certainly do that with a forester. And I thought, well, if I'm gonna be working on doing better in terms of, how we treat our environment, then I better learn. You know, from a profession that, that I have perceptions could do better,

Leigh Morgan 14:03

You go.

Valérie Courtois 14:04

and see if I could, uh, learn the theory behind that. So yeah, I,, I'm the first indigenous registered professional forester in the province here. my registered number is 67

Leigh Morgan 14:16

Okay.

Valérie Courtois 14:17

of the foresters. And, it's been an like such an asset for me to have, a degree, and this is an honors degree. It took me five years. and, to have a degree that, understands the theory behind planning, the theory behind management, to be a forester, you have to do everything from figure out where the road goes to engaging with communities and, and the politics and everything

Leigh Morgan 14:43

Yeah.

Valérie Courtois 14:43

that repercussion. So turned out to be the, the perfect training ground for me.

Leigh Morgan 14:49

that's a great story of how. maybe not just chance occurrence, but you meet someone and then you look under that stack and then the relevance to your training now to your work. And that's a good jumping off point. I'd love to have you share a little bit about ILI, the Indigenous Leadership Initiative. It's work. What are the vision and priorities and why is it important not just for, indigenous communities and indigenous territories, but important for all of us.

Valérie Courtois 15:24

Well, the ILI is quite unique globally. I, as far as I know, Lee, I think it's the only national scope, indigenous led conservation organization, certainly in Canada. But I, I think of the world, we created it because look, we know that every single one of the indigenous nations that exists here in what is now known as Canada all have an interest on land management. Every single land rights effort. Land claims, title resolution effort has revolved around an environmental issue of some sort, whether that is large development proposals or past wrongs, from previous developments or what have you. But it's, it's actually quite rare for those nations to be able to focus on that and fully unpack, the opportunity. And so we got together with a, few other leaders, people who had occupied incredible positions from national chiefs to former premiers of provinces and territories negotiators, CEOs, former member of Parliament, we have the, first woman to have been elected, first indigenous woman to be elected to Canada's parliament is on our team. Really to look and see, what is it that we can do at this time with everything that we've been able to learn in terms of political strategy, in terms of rights assertions, and really see where we can take it. The goal of ILI isn't so much the kind of the nature outcomes. it's more empowerment of nationhood or I guess in, US parlance of, indigenous sovereignty. where nations who are strong in their nationhood, in their sovereignty tend to express strength in terms of how they manage the responsibilities with their environment. We also have deep experience we're, we were embedded within the International Boreal Conservation campaign, which had been working in the Boreal region for, 20 years had been supporting a lot of efforts, whether that was conservation planning or land use planning, which I prefer to it to call land relationship planning. but,

Leigh Morgan 17:40

Wait, say that again. I love that land relationship planning Say more about that because I believe most of my listeners are, non-indigenous identified and so you've used phrases and this is so important to honor indigenous identity of the. country now known as Canada,

Valérie Courtois 17:58

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan 17:59

is now known as Canada, because the other side of that is Canada is a created country after it was colonized by European settlers. That's why you would refer to it at in appropriately as what is now known as Canada. And then also to have kind of that sense of not just the time before, but the time now where indigenous nations and sovereignty. So can you just tease that out a little just for those who may never have considered that reality?

Valérie Courtois 18:30

sure. Well, you know, the, common term is land use planning, which is where, you arrive and you look at maps and you determine kind of how you're gonna use various aspects of the landscape. Now, that is a very well utilitarian view of the land.

Leigh Morgan 18:47

the landscape right.

Valérie Courtois 18:48

It is, and it precludes and kind of assumes that that is the function of landscapes, that their function is to be useful to humans. but I actually prefer land relationship planning because of course, one of my favorite things that I learned when I first went into forestry, and that I still, you know, appreciate so much from this professor, she said, forestry is 50%. but there's a 50% art, in that practice because we as humans, we can never fully understand the complexity of ecosystems and all of the dynamics at play. And so the concept and, thinking and the arrogance in humans to just assume that it's all for our use is something that I'm not comfortable with. And, and, a, a fellow indigenous, conservation, oriented person who's done some guardian work, her name is Giselle Martin. her and her sister Simko are just wonderful. They come from a very strong family. their father is a, a canoe artist. and she came up with that term and I remember having an epiphany going, what? That's perfect. Because what we're actually doing is thinking about. What kind of relationship do we wanna have with these landscapes? And, and when I do planning, the first question I ask is, not what can I use, but, what needs to stay in this ecosystem for it to continue in perpetuity? because what right do I have to use up something, to the detriment of, of future generation? My, my job as a human is to make sure that the next generations have at least as much choice, if not more than I had as a human being in my time. And so that, that kind of thinking about those terms and, and referencing land relationship planning is something that aligns much better with my values.

Leigh Morgan 20:48

Thank you for that. And there's a sense of reciprocity and non hierarchy of earth and all of her species of which we, humans are just one that I think is part of the assumption and the worldview and belief system that you have there's such diversity across, around the world, around indigenous peoples nations and the expression and practices of that. Would you say that this sense of living in reciprocity, if we were to generalize and say that most indigenous peoples, would share this sense of living in reciprocity, that that is a distinguishing characteristic of indigenous worldviews, from more western consumption base nature is for our use. Is that an accurate statement?

Valérie Courtois 21:37

Yeah, I would absolutely agree with that. Uh, indigenous peoples are amongst the most sustainable societies that continue to exist, on this planet, and it's not an accident, that that is the case. And, One of the reasons why is because we understand that if we take care of the land, it'll take care of us. You know, that's our tagline for our Land Needs Guardians campaign. that reciprocity, also means responsibility. And look, anything in life, there's nothing that comes for free. Even if we think about the, the things we take for granted, the air we breathe, the water we're drinking, all of that requires a system, a species, uh, it requires something doing good things. And so, yeah, I think it's really important to, to think about that and, and certainly it's something that I find myself having in common with peoples around the world, whether they're located in Papua New Guinea or the Amazon. the Siberian Boreal. these, are all people who, understood that their, their sustainability depends on that relationship with their place.

Leigh Morgan 22:48

You mentioned Boreal. Not everyone is familiar with the different types of, forests that we have. So we have tropical forests and we have the Boreal forest, which of course is the dominant ecosystem in Canada and Northern Europe. Did I get that right?

Valérie Courtois 23:03

Yeah, yeah. In fact, the Boreal in Canada represents the largest intact forest left on the planet. in fact it's, it's 25% of, intact forests left on the planet. It is a huge forest that you know, has the benefit of, of being cold. when we think about plants and ecosystems and coal does not sound like that great a thing because we, we have this image of productivity and growth, but cold is what allows the boreal to, to store more carbon hectare than any other terrestrial ecosystem in the world. And so in terms of climate regulation. it is essential. We know, we know that oceans are essential to our climate regulation and that they are responsible for more carbon cycling than any other ecosystem in the world. And, and, you know, speaking of growing up in the nineties, what I used to hear is, oh, the lungs of the earth, there are the Amazon, but the lungs of the earth are the ocean and, and the Boreal forest. Not to deny and diminish the importance of the Amazon in any way, but that is the reality of the Boreal. We have, a quarter of the world's remaining wetlands and we've, we've learned over time of the importance of wetlands

Leigh Morgan 24:23

Yeah.

Valérie Courtois 24:23

terms of climate reg regulation and carbon storage and cycling. We have a fifth of the world's remaining fresh water and.

Leigh Morgan 24:31

Wow.

Valérie Courtois 24:31

know that, that fresh water is becoming, more scarce and, starting to be at the source of, of conflicts between humans. all of the songbirds that your listeners have in their backyard. Well, the Boreal is their nursery between three and 5 billion birds a year are born in the Boreal

Leigh Morgan 24:53

Did not know that.

Valérie Courtois 24:54

and migrate south. And so, those of your, your listeners, south of the 49th, should care about what's happening in the Boreal because it, it is what, allows all of those beautiful songbirds that, you wake up to, to exist.

Leigh Morgan 25:10

I'm getting chills that, that is incredible to know those statistics. And I actually, Had a sense of the importance of the boreal uh, forest regions, but you've just really amplified the importance. And so the health and wellbeing of all of our remaining large, intact forests, critical for the health and wellbeing of everyone listening, our families and all species. Say a little more about ILA on a daily, basis. What, what are you building? What are you doing to help protect these pristine, ecosystems, which has this incredibly positive impact on all of us.

Valérie Courtois 25:52

I've had this conversation with my partner all the time. She's like, what is the elevator pitch that I could tell people in terms of what you do? And I, you know, my answer back is, well, good luck with that. really what we do is we work by invitation. And so Nations will call us and say, we need your help. We wanna do this, whether that is the creation of an indigenous guardians program, who are people, who are hired to take care of these landscapes, or pushing forward a, declared protected area, or, really positioning the nation for, its ability to fulfill its, responsibilities and to provide free prior and informed consent, for activities on their landscapes. and that, that means that I spend a lot of time on Zoom. it also means that I spend a lot of time at various meetings. But if I were to sum it up, like the biggest indigenous led conservation and stewardship.

Leigh Morgan 26:49

Okay.

Valérie Courtois 26:49

and, really what I do is, is mostly fundraise. So Terms of impacts, we did fundraise and lobby for the creation of the very first National Guardians Network, in the world. We did, push for financing within Canada's efforts to meet its biodiversity commitments, to recognize and centralize indigenous led conservation. In fact, it's the only way Canada's gonna be able to meet our targets is by empowering indigenous nations.

Leigh Morgan 27:20

Why is that?

Valérie Courtois 27:21

one, because it's a natural thing for us to do, to think about conservation, to look at things like what needs to stay for, these ecosystems to continue to support us. We, many of us are hunting cultures. Many of us depend on, on those ecosystems and our relationship with them for our food security, for, an understanding of our place in the world. but also in the last 20 years, if you look at all of the newly established protected areas across. The vast majority of them, o over 90% of them have been led or co-led by indigenous peoples. And that could be examples like, like the newest national park here in Labrador. It's called the Milly Mountains, or in my language, AMI National Park, um, ish literally translates to white hills across because there's a big inlet Labrador. And, and, and the hills are across the inlet from the Innu community, to places like Guhan, which is a flagship na National Park for us, or died in an ne in the Northwest Territories, but also, places like, Tuta de uh, Dessan, the Silver River Watershed in, in, in Manitoba. And these are these are huge areas

Leigh Morgan 28:39

Give us a sense of how big these areas are.

Valérie Courtois 28:41

Well, the Seal River Watershed is, um, 50,000 square kilometers. Uh, so, that is, just over 30,000 square miles. Uh, and, that means it's the size of, two Costa Rica's,

Leigh Morgan 28:56

Okay.

Valérie Courtois 28:56

um,

Leigh Morgan 28:57

That's big.

Valérie Courtois 28:58

you know, or Denis in northern, uh, British Columbia that is moving forward, in partnership with the government of, British Columbia is 40,000 square kilometers in size. Or the size of Switzerland. these are globally significant areas, in terms of their size. and they store the, you know, the area in the Seal River watershed would store the equivalent of eight years of Canada's national emissions carbon. And so, these are areas that, that will be making a difference. Now, if we were to take all of the proposed protected areas that are being advanced by indigenous peoples, we'd have more than half a billion, square kilometers, being proposed. And that would take us pretty much to where we need to be to, to meet our target as a country. I don't know if people in who are listening know this, but we have, we have the equivalent of the size of the province of Manitoba to go in terms of our protection. So I don't know what that is, Lee. That's probably. Three Texas two, two or three Texases.

Leigh Morgan 30:02

Two or three texases.

Valérie Courtois 30:03

yeah.

Leigh Morgan 30:04

That's

Valérie Courtois 30:04

So we

Leigh Morgan 30:05

one. It's hard to say texases, but it's secondly, you mentioned earlier the healthiest ecosystems on the planet. These large intact ecosystems, whether tropical forest or boreal forests, that's where indigenous peoples have rights and sovereignty generally over their ancestral homelands. And why? It's because this notion of understanding that the health and wellbeing over generations, over millennia, is the thing to do. And there's tried and true practices.

Valérie Courtois 30:45

Yeah,

Leigh Morgan 30:46

I and ILI. The work that you're doing is just, is sustaining and actually trying to reignite perhaps in some places, but expand for indigenous peoples who understand and live in these territories to protect and nurture them. And

Valérie Courtois 31:01

Yeah,

Leigh Morgan 31:02

you're training people to do that.

Valérie Courtois 31:04

Absolutely. We're also kind of like, indigenous civil society in many ways, which is not something that is common. we have to remind your listeners that in terms of those rights, at least here in, in what is now known as Canada, those rights are recognized as being collective rights. These are not individual rights. These, these rights relate to the very nationhood, of our, of our nations. And so the way that we, uphold those rights is, very different than you would if you thought about individualized rights. And, that is a part of, of what ILI does is uphold and, and ensure that the nations as much space as possible to fulfill their, their leadership. And of that has to do with, with real time information from the ground, on what is happening. and I don't envy our leadership, you know, these, the chiefs, even though we think about chiefs as being chiefs of small communities, the kind of issues that are brought forward to them. And the kind of things that they have to decisions on on a daily basis are, just huge. They could, in one day, be sitting across the largest mining company in the world negotiating. accessing part of their landscapes. they could be dealing with social crisis within the community. They could be dealing with infrastructure gaps all in the same day. I don't envy that, that responsibility at all. And I uphold and uplift our chiefs. Thank you, for

Leigh Morgan 32:39

Yeah.

Valérie Courtois 32:40

that you're providing for us. because I know that's not an easy, easy job. The best thing for them is to be as informed as possible at every step. And that is, also why ILI has pushed so hard for, for the concept of indigenous guardians and for that to be recognized not only as a profession, but to have the whole support system around it, to make sure that our nations are equipped and tooled, to fulfill those responsibilities.

Leigh Morgan 33:12

How much support are you getting from the Canadian government?

Valérie Courtois 33:16

I'd always like for more, uh, but in

Leigh Morgan 33:19

Good answer.

Valérie Courtois 33:20

um, they've been very supportive. Prime Minister Trudeau was elected in 2015, and the first thing he said as Prime Minister was the most important to relationship to him personally and to the future of the country, is the relationship with indigenous peoples. And so we saw an opportunity there to help him define what he meant, uh,

Leigh Morgan 33:40

There you go.

Valérie Courtois 33:41

And, to really push for that. And, so far the federal government has invested. almost a billion dollars in indigenous led conservation since the ILI has been created, directly into programs like indigenous guardians or

Leigh Morgan 33:57

Great.

Valérie Courtois 33:58

protected and conserved areas, but also into other initiatives like, the Project Finance for Permanence initiatives, which were announced at COP 15 in Montreal, where the Prime Minister, announced investing$800 million in these four regions to explore what it might look like to take, a real scaled approach to thinking about conservation, not just in terms of the establishment of, protected areas, but also what it might mean for shifting local economies from. From a simple resource based kind of boom bust economy to one that brings in kind of a more robust, and diverse source of revenue and, and responsibilities that includes stewardship and, and other conservation based

Leigh Morgan 34:45

So that's more of a systemic approach. To thinking about conservation, not as a thing, but just part of the normal part of community development, which would include economic development, which is intimately tied to the protection of our natural environments. That, I mean, did I get that right? It's a systemic approach. Yeah.

Valérie Courtois 35:07

totally. And our communities are asking for it. I mean, the average standard of living of an indigenous person in Canada is much lower than the standard of living of, of average Canadians. We, you know, our, children receive two thirds of the funding for education. We get. and we tend to be located in remote, communities, where, where economic opportunities really are dependent on things like resource development and, we don't have access necessarily, to urban realities or, access to service industries and other opportunities for building economic development. So when it comes to conservation, this isn't just about kind of development out, it's actually about how do you better integrate your community's needs, including economic development, but also social development and other things with

Leigh Morgan 36:01

Yeah,

Valérie Courtois 36:02

desire for perpetuity, for sustainability, for, for being there hopefully for many generations to come.

Leigh Morgan 36:10

it's exciting to hear that there is that level of support at the Canadian federal government level, and not without challenges, I don't assume, but there is that, foundation such that ILI and other efforts can expand and amplify impact. And as I think about impact, one of the things I wanna get your views on is how do we bridge divides during this, I would say extra polarized, fragmented global community that we're a part of. And you know, I live and work in the United States and we've just seen a divided electorate. We've seen the tone and tenor of public discourse just become more caustic, more blame and shame and scapegoating. And so I have lots of views about that, but that's partly why I started this podcast, right? It's to create a forum for the kind of conversations that we're having today, and what advice would you share or encouragement or lessons for those of us who want to hold firm to our convictions and also find ways to bridge divides at this kind of crazy time.

Valérie Courtois 37:24

That's a great question. I mean, we've been, first of all, no one globally is isolated from those dynamics. We are also experiencing that polarization here. And I, in many ways, I, I, the way that we consume information, all of these things are, are certainly factors, but I, I tend to, to remind folks and I, it's funny, it's like a simple thing, I, I get a lot of comments about this. Look, we can, we can focus on what makes us different. Till we're blue in the face. Like there's, of course there's gonna be differences between us. We are biological beings. Biology loves diversity. Uh, this is kind of a fundamental tenet of biological sciences, is that diversity is good. But you can flip that and look and see that we actually have a lot of com in common as humans. would do much better to focus on commonality than we would to focus on differences between us. Look, the differences are part of what makes us unique and uniqueness are, is important. That's a lot of, like, the edge of innovation happens in those places. And, and I'm not advocating for ignoring that role, but I do find that, when I look at, at discourse on social media and. And other discussions we're very quick to point out the differences in our opinions or differences in our gr upbringing or differences in our privilege or all of those things. And, I think we'd be better served too, to focus on, on the 80 to 90% of what brings us together, even, even on the other side of the world. We are still fundamentally human. We still, you know, need to eat every day. We, all of the things a, about us as, as a species is in common. We love our children. I hope that we love our spaces and our places that we're from. we are all, the same. and when it comes to political discourse and how, how to bring it forward, as someone who considers themselves. You know, on the progressive side, I do find myself concerned about regression, politically but I think that's, that's good, to be aware of and mindful of as we're, as we're doing that. Look, if we are to create genuine change, we cannot do that at the detriment of others. if we are to be real leaders, we have to bring everybody along. now folks are not recoverable and we have to

Leigh Morgan 40:05

Yeah.

Valérie Courtois 40:06

you know,

Leigh Morgan 40:07

Yeah. Yeah.

Valérie Courtois 40:08

that, that is a part of it, and that's okay. I, you know, we've had people in our environments who know I disagree with them fundamentally, but, I, I still wish them well. I don't wish Ill on those people, but. Uh, and that's okay. But I do think, Lee, that if, if we continue to focus on what makes us different, we'll

Leigh Morgan 40:29

Hmm.

Valérie Courtois 40:30

the charm of what we have in common.

Leigh Morgan 40:33

We will never see the charm of what we have in common. That I love that statement. And are there any opportunities that you see for innovation or spaces of collaboration that are emerging now or may emerge because there is so much retrenchment in some spaces, especially around, environmental protection. certainly we're seeing in the US the administration is, really shutting down funding basically. Drill, baby, drill at at all costs. So lots of constraints, lots of concerns. Where is innovation happening in the work that you're doing or in the global spaces that you're in?

Valérie Courtois 41:19

I think, it is creating opportunities for partnerships. Look, we worked for years and continue to be partnered with an organization like Ducks Unlimited. you have Ducks Unlimited Incorporated in the US we have Ducks Unlimited Canada, they're affiliated. These are mostly older white men who hunt ducks. Um, let's not be, illusioned about that. But they are men who also love. and understand the importance of the ecosystems, if they wanna hunt more ducks and, so we do have that in common. We do have an interest in having everybody brought along and to work together. I've had conversation. I never thought I'd sit in a room, at, Lloyd's of London and talking about the value of insurance. You know, I'm, I'm like, look, I, I really went to school to, to work with trees. Not, um, not

Leigh Morgan 42:13

actuaries.

Valérie Courtois 42:14

economics theory and all of this,

Leigh Morgan 42:17

Yeah.

Valérie Courtois 42:17

but the insurance sector

Leigh Morgan 42:19

Yes.

Valérie Courtois 42:20

more and more at what we're doing. And, you know, speaking of, hanging out with King Charles, one of the things that he did is he started something called the Sustainable Markets Initiative, which brings together the Globe's, top CEOs and, and challenges. The private sector with innovation and coming up with more solution and really being better global citizens. That's been fascinating to see. And we had a conversation in London, uh, with that group just this past spring. I was quite concerned because, your current president had just taken office and, there was quite some churn in, in where that was going. I've actually found a lot of calmness in the sector, and then saying, look, this political stuff, sure it's gonna affect our markets, but in terms of innovation, it, we're not, we're not lifting the, foot off the pedal. Like, we need to find green energy solutions. This isn't just good for the planet, it's good for our business. We need to find ways of reducing our emissions. we need to, find ways of increasing productivity and all of those things are also good for the planet. So yeah, I think there are lots of spaces where we need to collaborate better, and I actually wish that the left was much better at collaboration and stop judging so much. there is no perfection. Claiming that you are more perfect than another is, false. and we should accept that each one of us along that spectrum has a role to play in pulling, pulling the rope towards progression. And, look, the right is very organized, much less judgmental and, and they're winning. I think we should take that lesson and really think about, pushing us towards good things and creating environments where our children and grandchildren. Like I said, we'll have as many, if not more opportunities than we did as societies and as economies. We can't have an instance where, you know, the heydays of being a human was, you know, the boomer generation or the extra we all have to be brought towards, where, you know, this, this kind of place of, of good.

Leigh Morgan 44:33

Thank you for lifting up that we all have to be a part of the solution and There is sometimes I think in progressive or liberal circles a sense of we're doing this and if only that other side, you just spoke to better listening. Less judgment has to come from all parts of society. I think sometimes folks on the, left have a sense of moral superiority when we really just need to say, how do we sign up together, to get things done? And I have one last question for you, which is, I am a big fan of Lord of the Rings, I've read the books watched all the movies, and I love the character of Gandalf and he has that staff, you know, and it's a magic staff. And if you had a, Valerie's staff, or a magic wand, what one wish would you have for listeners as it relates to supporting indigenous led or any conservation efforts that are based on the principles that you've articulated today? What's that one wish?

Valérie Courtois 45:42

It's pretty simply, I wish that every human being experiences the feeling and emotion of love every day because, that is, how we'll see each other. I, I think in many ways, the stereotypes, there's this kind of othering that I feel with, with non-indigenous peoples that, oh, those indigenous peoples, they're just different. They're not actually, we're, we're not. We all love our children. We all love our place and, we're trying to build societies where, expressing that love is encouraged and, welcomed. And, and I think if we were to kind of recognize that capability in each other, we'd be in a much better place. So. Yeah, please make an effort of, of experiencing love in, in, in all of its facets and in all of its, scopes and scales every day. Uh, and it can be as simple as just, loving that, that breath that you can take, that might very well have come from the Boreal Forest.

Leigh Morgan 46:45

Okay. That's such a nice and inspiring way to end our conversation and there really is way more love and kindness in the world than the division and fear that we hear and see often. And you've just described a way to do that through our breath and understanding. Valerie, thank you for making time today for your work and everyone at ILI. It makes a big difference for all of us. Thanks for being on the space in between.

Valérie Courtois 47:15

No, um, thank you so much. It's an honor and I always love having a conversation with you, Lee.

Leigh Morgan 47:20

You're the best. Thanks. Bye for now.

47:25

I hope you. Enjoyed this episode of the space in between podcast. If. If you did, please hit the like button and leave a review. Wherever you listen to the show. And check out the space. Space in between.com website, where you can also leave me a message.