More Truth Talk About Immigration with Maggie Mitchell Salem

Today’s episode tackles the sweeping shifts in U.S. immigration policy—tightened legal immigration, mass deportation efforts, and the rollback of existing due process protections for legal residents and undocumented workers—while modeling how to debate fiercely held views without dehumanizing one another. Joining me is Maggie Mitchell Salem, a returning guest and one of the country’s leading immigration experts. Maggie is known for her candid, nonpartisan approach and she brings clear-eyed insight on what’s changed, what hasn’t, and how we can have sensible immigration policy. Leigh and Maggie explore how we can bridge divides by creating spaces for good-faith dialogue, separate fact from spin, name trade-offs, and still hold fast to shared American values including dignity, safety, kindness, and the rule of law.

Transcript

0:01

Hello and welcome to the. Space in between podcast. I'm your host Lee Morgan. Again, this podcast is for listeners who are fed up. Up with the hyperpolarized nature of the world today. And who crave. Craves spaces where current events can be discussed in construct. enlightening and delightful ways. Let's get.

Leigh Morgan 0:28

Today we're gonna talk about a very current event, which is the dramatic and unprecedented effort to constrict legal immigration and deport as many undocumented workers across the US as possible. We will also explore the space in between on this emotional and often polarizing topic and how we can create conversations where we don't compromise our beliefs and values. While also bridging divides. guest today, Maggie Mitchell Salam joins us for a second time, the first time was in December when she helped set the table for us in understanding the dimensions of immigration what's happening with undocumented workers. she offered insightful commentary on how to navigate fact from fiction, the ins and outs of immigration law, and implications for our economy if we deport millions of people. That episode was wildly popular in no small part due to Maggie's candid straight shooter and nonpartisan approach one of the country's leading experts in immigration. Is executive director of Iris, a Connecticut based nonprofit that works with newly arrived refugees and asylum seekers. She cares a lot about strengthening communities working across ideological divides. And lucky for us, she is really good at educating people on the truth about immigration. I am so glad you're here with us today. Welcome back Maggie, to the space in between.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 2:10

It is so great to be here. Thanks so much for having me again.

Leigh Morgan 2:13

Yeah, so glad to to have you here. And so I'll start a little bit of commentary. You know, we are nine months out from our last conversation. Feels like time has gone fast and then hardly at all. Back then, candidate Trump was extolling his approach and plans for curbing immigration. Targeting what he called, criminal aliens for deportation if he were elected. Well, he won the election fair and square, I might add. And since then we have seen his administration green light, what he promised on the campaign trail. so much has changed in terms of policy, legal precedent,

Maggie Mitchell Salem 2:55

Okay.

Leigh Morgan 2:56

the tone and tenor immigration coming from the White House. Very, different than we've seen in really any other administration, democratic or Republican. most would agree, we are as polarized as ever. There's a subset of Americans who are enthusiastic about capturing and deporting as many undocumented people and keeping out. Others decry this for a wide range of humanitarian and economic reasons. Can you share. How dramatically things have changed and maybe there's some areas that there hasn't been big change, but set the table for us.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 3:39

Wow, that's a big ask. Um, how much time do we have?

Leigh Morgan 3:43

know we have just.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 3:45

What we know from our work, with the undocumented, with people who have become undocumented because they've lost status. Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans, Venezuelans, Ecuadorians, Afghans, Ukrainians are all either having their status removed categories that they were once in ended programs ended. and now we're talking about a million, if not more than a million people who have been added to the number of undocumented in the country.

Leigh Morgan 4:18

Let me ask you to explain that a little bit. What,

Maggie Mitchell Salem 4:21

Or

Leigh Morgan 4:21

happened there?

Maggie Mitchell Salem 4:22

I deliberately started there because it's not something understandably, that folks are thinking about. Like,'cause you think you know who the undocumented are. They crossed the border, they have not had legal status. you know, even for those of us who are really, supportive of treating people in a humane and dignified way, and recognize the value of those who are undocumented in our communities, what they're contributing, that that is the view of that community. These are people who have crossed the border and do not have legal status. What's been happening since January when President Trump issued 10 executive orders that initiated the process of really reshaping the US immigration system. And I'm not just talking about with the undocumented refugees, others in the humanitarian pathway, those here who are working and have worked visas. All of this has been or is in the process of being. Changed and, among those, the programs that the administration focused on early was a program benefiting Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans, and Venezuelans, offering them humanitarian parole, which is time limited, but can be renewed and had been renewed for different, populations, as well as temporary protective status, which is a status that the US government can provide to a nationality if there is something happening in their country that makes it hard for someone who's here on a visitor visa, on a work visa, on a student visa, it's not safe for them to go home. Many nationalities lost that status starting with Cuban Station, Nicaraguans and Venezuelans. Ecuadorians have, have, lost temporary protective status. There was a court case, so I, I'm not current on all of the dozen or more court cases impacting all these categories, including refugees. Ecuador's were on that list. Afghans have not had humanitarian parole extended. So Afghans are here either on humanitarian parole. Many of them in August of 2021 were put on US military planes. And when they arrived in the us, the US government scrambled to get them legal status and they used humanitarian parole. And we're in the process of adjusting them to other categories. They have fallen out of humanitarian parole. When you lose your status, That essentially means you've become undocumented for the purposes of this administration.

Leigh Morgan 7:03

And we know who they are, where they are, because they had been already in the system

Maggie Mitchell Salem 7:08

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 7:09

so easy to find. And so these people are living in fear. Just when is ICE gonna show up? a lot of these Afghan folks were people who helped the United States in our war against the Taliban. They might have been interpreters or provided some sort of service to our troops that are over there. And so at the time the idea was, look, you helped us out and we're gonna help you out because if you helped us out and the Taliban's coming in, they're gonna come after you and kill you and, your family. And so that, promise to those people has now been reversed they're now at risk being. Deported back to Afghanistan where they are known to be folks who had collaborated with the United States. Did I mostly get that right?

Maggie Mitchell Salem 8:01

You got that perfectly right. And Lee, can I add, just to pile on the facts one, if you're being thrown on a US flight in August of 2021, you've been vetted, you've been screened, you've just been thrown on a US military flight, yet there was still a process grinding on to get them more permanent legal status and to bring their families over. And let me add one more part to the Afghan piece, since January, the state department office. Focused on Afghan resettlement. That office has been shut down,

Leigh Morgan 8:43

Okay. Hmm.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 8:44

in Qatar and in the UAE Afghans who were we had positioned there. So some people made it here. Some people made it to Qatar, the UAE, to other platforms in Europe. Qatar and the UAE are sending Afghans home. This isn't their fault. The agreement with the US government is that it was a temporary place for the US government to process Afghans. That processing stopped hundreds, if not thousands, have been sent home the entire system for processing what's called a special immigrant visa. Which is what these Afghan allies usually are able to obtain when they prove that they have a direct connection to the US government or US military in their service. That processing has slowed way down, was never fast, and it is now much slower.

Leigh Morgan 9:44

They're not going to devote if any resources to this because the administration has deprioritized across the board. Such dramatic reversal decades and decades of US policy related to. Immigration related to providing an opportunity for asylum seekers, et cetera. And you just described one part that I wasn't as familiar with in terms of people having their status revoked. What I noticed is you said a million people. I think I'd had some awareness that this was happening to some people, but a million people like, Hey, you have no status. You're now at risk for getting picked up, or voluntarily, we want you to go home as if these people have enough money for a plane ticket. Right.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 10:35

Yeah. Or, or they're just being thrown on a, a flight and we're deporting them, or I guess the US government's asking foreign governments to pick up the tab, which I'm sure is wildly popular. I'm getting my numbers from, fairly reliable sources. it's known roughly the number of humanitarian parolees who are Cuban, Haitian, Nicaragua, and Venezuelan. It's known how many are in the TPS temporary protective status system. And, and that, by the way, that designation, I may not got this number right, impacts 16 or 17 nationalities. The administration has chosen those that it wants to end that status for like Ecuadorians. others may be continuing. It's just not clear for how long and Ukrainians think about this. This is the other group that I think you listeners would want to know about Ukrainians who are here on humanitarian parole. They are losing their status'cause it's expiring and it's not being extended. Can you imagine if you see anything that's happening in Ukraine right now? This incredibly brave country standing in the face of an onslaught from its neighbor, unprovoked, and families are trying to seek safety and some may be forced to return home. It's. Between them and the Afghan allies who were, were betraying. Uh, sorry, I'm editorializing. It is, I, I lose words in how to describe how this makes me feel as an American.

Leigh Morgan 12:16

It's such a overwhelming experience to bear witness to this. And when I say overwhelming, what I, I am safe. I'm a citizen here and

Maggie Mitchell Salem 12:29

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan 12:29

have resources I can feed myself get along quite well. So I don't to center myself like poor me. It's just literally the system and the magnitude and millions of people who are impacted by the dramatic shifts is sometimes overwhelming. Yeah.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 12:52

very overwhelming. our staff. Includes Ukrainians, Afghans, Ethiopians, Syrians, our staff resembles as it should, and many had hoped to bring their families here because the other thing that I haven't mentioned, you know,'cause there is so much, are the travel bans, which are back in place and for more countries than in the first Trump administration. He's got three a color coded system, I think it was red, orange, yellow, can't remember, but none of them good either. You get extra scrutiny or there's only certain categories of visas offered or outright ban with limited exceptions.

Leigh Morgan 13:41

Yeah, so there's three other areas that, if you could give us the headlines of what's shifted. One is asylum seekers, the other

Maggie Mitchell Salem 13:51

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan 13:52

legal immigration itself. And then the third is undocumented workers. Now, these are big buckets, what are the, what are the headlines? Then we're gonna talk a little bit about how in the world do we move forward, given that things are so polarized on this topic. But start with those three buckets, undocumented workers, asylum seekers, and legal immigration.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 14:17

Sure. And so what you're touching on is maybe two thirds of the very complicated US immigration system. So, we as Iris, a refugee resettlement agency and an immigrant serving organization focused on the humanitarian pathway of the US immigration system and. What you're talking about is the, another part, enforcement of immigration policies, and then another piece which is, employment. Right? Those that are coming here to work, either to work and live permanently or coming here to do business. all of those have been, impacted by the changes starting with, uh, the top of your list asylum seekers because it's a, a group that, we are also deeply concerned for and have worked with. Let me just remind your listeners of what asylum means. When you're asking for asylum, you have shown up at the border of the country that you are seeking safety in. The same credible fear screening or test that's applied to refugees except they're located in a third country, is applied to asylum seekers. Asylum seeking asylum and being a refugee are not different. They're the same. The difference is the location in which you are seeking that protective status. So folks are coming to the southern border, or maybe they're, intercepted in the Caribbean, and say, I am too afraid to go home.

Leigh Morgan 16:08

Something bad is going on. I'm fearing for my life or my family. So I'm showing up here and they get to the border, if they get across the border and say to an immigration official, or the police even, I'm here because I wanna apply for asylum. Applying is different from being granted asylum, but

Maggie Mitchell Salem 16:29

Exactly.

Leigh Morgan 16:30

We have a history in case law and a process that says we will say yes and we won't immediately kick you back, but you'll get in the queue to have your case reviewed before a decision is made. You have to go back or you can stay. Did I get that right?

Maggie Mitchell Salem 16:50

Beautiful and much better said than I would've and I wanna point out something here because what I appreciate most about. How you try to have these conversations is that we're just, we're candid, I don't wanna seem to be taking aside in this, the asylum system has been abused. I will say this. how the system has been administered in the past, has left it open to abuse and just to answer what that abuse is back in the 2010s. And this is documented, um, there's a fantastic book that I can't recommend, highly enough, written by Jonathan Blitzer. who has focused on the southern border. Immigration over time. And so I just have to say, just a fantastic, read and I'll, I'll come up with the name of the book in a second.

Leigh Morgan 17:46

I will make sure it's in our show notes.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 17:49

it is so good. And he makes the point because it's documented that immigration lawyers in the US figure it out. That if they in essence gum up the system, with claims, saying, you know, that their client who may not have legitimate claim to asylum, and I'm gonna come back to what legitimate means.'cause it all goes back to that credible fear screening. But they wanted to get them safety in the us, wanted to help them start their lives. If they filed claims for asylum, it would, in essence, gum up the system, which is exactly what's happened.

Leigh Morgan 18:24

and when you say gum up, is it accurate to say that means the person the lawyer is representing stays in the United States longer because the lawyer would claims and then another claim pushing back the actual decision on or go away. And so that might add two or three years for this person to stay. And one, one

Maggie Mitchell Salem 18:50

Exactly.

Leigh Morgan 18:51

that's the ethical obligation for the lawyer to do right by their client. So this is not a good or bad lawyer, judgment. It's just

Maggie Mitchell Salem 19:00

Nope.

Leigh Morgan 19:00

happened and you're basically saying, and this is so important, this is why you're, I love having you as a guest. This, has overwhelmed the system and maybe some of those claims are accurate. Again, let's assume positive intent.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 19:15

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 19:16

consequence is we had lots and lots of folks applying for asylum. They're here overwhelming the enforcement system to adjudicate these, these cases. That is not something you tend to hear people talking about. And so you've said this has been, a challenge in the system. And then we have the new administration who now says, well, we're gonna blow it all up and even do it.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 19:42

Yeah, essentially that's exactly what's happened. I don't think you can cross the border anymore and claim asylum. those that have requested asylum are going through the process. It's increasingly clear that the administration does, not appreciate immigration. Judges who approve asylum cases. They fired judges that have a high approval rate. They have fired immigration judges who were in their first two years, just like a, across the federal government. Probationary employees were categorically, Terminated. They did the same thing with immigration, new immigration judges. And now, Jags, military judges are being drafted into service, in the immigration courts. You no longer have to have any experience with immigration law. Super complicated stuff, but you don't need any prior experience. And look, I love military checks. These guys do a really hard job and now they're being handed another set of legal precedents and confusing, and in some cases, arcane laws that they're supposed to be interpreting. Knowing the administration's preference, which is just saying no.

Leigh Morgan 21:02

So the asylum world turned upside down. Just a completely different philosophy, and I will say that for any nation state policy about how many asylum seekers, refugees, you take in. Is rich fodder for discussion and debate.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 21:23

It certainly is

Leigh Morgan 21:24

just is.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 21:25

can.

Leigh Morgan 21:26

we can go back and forth and we have in

Maggie Mitchell Salem 21:28

Sure.

Leigh Morgan 21:28

administrations uh, tinkering around the edges. But what I am hearing from you and is affirming my take, we have a massive, disruption of decades and decades of precedent here in the United States that would generally say, air towards listening to people who come in and their claims

Maggie Mitchell Salem 21:54

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan 21:54

about why they should be here. And then we would recognize on a global stage that some nation states indeed are so unstable and have a level of violence that folks coming in from those countries, understand that it might be. Too dangerous for them to go back again, understanding that we might wanna limit the amount and volume of people coming in, that's a very normal policy.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 22:20

Yeah. What I love about your, your podcast, Lee, is we can just talk about things openly and candidly. There's no, I wanna avoid the polarizing, and I know we're gonna get to, to the, to that space and, and what we might do productively to, um, come together. I just wanna return to that credible fear of screening'cause for refugees and those who are claiming asylum. Your country not doing great, your country being in the midst of a, war, even your country having economic collapse, political disintegration, being ravaged by gangs, that is not enough to get you asylum or for you to be considered a refugee. It is at the end of the day. A subjective decision of a US government, which status to give to a particular nationality. There is lots of politics at work

Leigh Morgan 23:21

And can I just say there have has always been lots of politics at work.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 23:26

Yes,

Leigh Morgan 23:27

So

Maggie Mitchell Salem 23:27

yes.

Leigh Morgan 23:27

that's the piece. I don't find as much acknowledgement

Maggie Mitchell Salem 23:32

Yep,

Leigh Morgan 23:33

left.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 23:34

yep. Oh yeah. It's always been at work though. I mean, I'm gonna push back a little on you here.

Leigh Morgan 23:40

Please.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 23:41

I never tire of talking about the 1980 Refugee Act, which is the reason that we exist as a refugee resettlement agency. Can you imagine a hundred senators agreeing on anything? And in 1980, a hundred senators agreed that we need to do better than having this ad hoc way of accepting those fleeing and those who are the most vulnerable in the world. they all did. 100 voted for it. Crazy. President Carter signed it, one of his last acts as President. President Reagan, not only faithfully implemented it, but in his farewell address in 1989, talked about what it meant to be a country of people who have come from other places, a condemnation of immigrants, and that welcoming the vulnerable, and I'm doing a terrible job of paraphrasing beautiful words. Peggy Noonan, of course, His chief speech writer, you know, talking about that welcome and our democracy and how interlinked they are and just beautiful. So there is a time that we all agreed, okay, we could disagree over specific numbers, we could disagree over many different details, but overall we agreed on having a system that the US government would support and implement that welcomed vulnerable people. I think in the past, I don't know, I'm gonna say 15 years, it's become polarized. You know, we are the nonprofit, we are the resettlement agency that welcomed the Syrian family that Mike Pence, who was then governor of Indiana, rejected. They are still here in Connecticut. And The mom is an amazing cook and she has helped expand many waistlines in this state.

Leigh Morgan 25:40

Okay, good.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 25:42

I think that we had the shared understanding. yeah, we're America, but we're part of a, a global issue. And I loved how you were actually referring to that in a way, in talking about what, mass arrivals at the border mean and how they can be causing disagreement and leading to folks not supporting this program in the way that they may have in the past. And then you add to it social media and polarizing political language. And we, it's hard to even find a space where we can have a rational. Dialogue like this one.

Leigh Morgan 26:21

Thank you for that. Um, I just wanna affirm the debate about how many asylum seekers, refugee seekers, immigrants coming into any country is fair game for rational debate.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 26:38

Yes.

Leigh Morgan 26:39

it's not like we have not had that. What I wanna highlight here for listeners, is the magnitude of change, change, and then in terms of the many programs that grew outta that 1980 act right, so we can count and stagegate and ideally make some decisions about, in the coming year or four or five years, we want to dial things up. Or

Maggie Mitchell Salem 27:04

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 27:04

back, that's normal. Can you

Maggie Mitchell Salem 27:06

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 27:07

a little bit about, undocumented workers? There's been so much press, almost daily of some new ice raid, immigration, customs and enforcement there with so many cuts to the federal budget. One We're seeing, the roundup of, hundreds, thousands of undocumented workers

Maggie Mitchell Salem 27:30

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 27:31

and we're seeing the roundup of folks who are documented, who

Maggie Mitchell Salem 27:36

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 27:36

legally, but are rounded up in our. Languishing in these detention facilities or like

Maggie Mitchell Salem 27:45

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 27:46

uh, Garcia, you know, sent abroad. And then we say, well, we made a mistake, but it's too late.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 27:53

And American citizens. By the way, let me just add to that. American citizens have been picked up.

Leigh Morgan 27:58

That's alarming. And then they end up spending weeks and weeks in these horrible conditions and then, we're finding folks arrested because they happen to be speaking out against policies at the federal level. That's the other thing.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 28:14

I mean, the intersection of our democracy with what's happening with the massive changes to our immigration system, it's, it's all happening at once and it's having consequences in both spaces. I know that for some of your listeners, it's going to sound like, and I am left of center. But I'm not so left that I can't think critically about the fact that some on the right have felt shut down for years. So I will say that out loud. it is true. We, we need to reflect on how we are shutting one another down and and respectful dialogue. Even if we're angry with one another, that's okay. But we, we've just gotta come back to that space where it's open. Instead of having this increasingly debilitating for our democracy, you know, tennis match of now it's us that's in charge of determining what is allowable speech. Well now it's us and you did it. So we're doing it. Which strikes me as like a third grade school fight. Like, no. And you need a referee come in and say, or teacher say, stop.

Leigh Morgan 29:25

yeah. Yeah. We, we, we don't want to have to need teachers, although we love teachers.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 29:31

But let me come back to your question. I'm so sorry. You were asking about the undocumented workers, So let me and quickly,'cause we could talk for hours. Um, undocumented are able to work, some are able to do that by setting up, either a 10 99, like setting up their own, small business or company and, doing it that way. Um, others are, are working, for employers that are willing to engage them. I'm not even gonna talk about what that means. But they're working. I mean, they're being picked up at workplaces. They're being picked up in courthouses. By the way, the governor of Connecticut this week just restricted ice access to state courthouses as a public safety issue. We need to be thinking these things through. If they're in a courthouse, for a state courthouse, you want people to be showing up as witnesses in cases that it might involve crime. You know, they're in family court for a hearing. They're doing something that is in some way helping their family or helping their community be safe. the undocumented or, those whose status has just ended and they have become undocumented. Are important to our construction, agriculture, hospitality, healthcare systems, elder care. They are vital. They comprise a significant percentage of each of those. And when I say significant, I'm talking 20 to 25%. And here I'm being conservative.

Leigh Morgan 31:08

20 to 25% in construction, agriculture, healthcare, I maybe also food service somewhere.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 31:15

yes.

Leigh Morgan 31:16

and we have a labor shortage as well. And we talked about this in our December podcast that, if we go to a restaurant, you're gonna see a sign said, hiring.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 31:25

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan 31:25

you might think, gosh, why is service a little slow? Well, it's because there's not enough workers

Maggie Mitchell Salem 31:31

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 31:32

hired. And to 20% of, of that workforce in the past has been undocumented workers. And it's a fair question to say, Hmm, Should they become documented'cause they're contributing or not. Right? But this is a labor issue. And

Maggie Mitchell Salem 31:48

It is.

Leigh Morgan 31:49

I'm checking this with you. As we see these massive roundups at workplaces, at courthouses that we may exacerbate the worker shortage that we have, which

Maggie Mitchell Salem 32:02

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan 32:03

our healthcare, our access for our beloved elders who may want some care either in a nursing home or hire for a couple hours if we have enough money to do that. These are

Maggie Mitchell Salem 32:18

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 32:18

life implications. And I just read in Pennsylvania, farmers They don't have folks who can pick their crops.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 32:26

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 32:27

And this is happening all over the us. If you don't have enough workers, that means you are going to lose money because you can't your cops. And we know there's automation of course, but we still need folks out in the fields. And

Maggie Mitchell Salem 32:41

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 32:42

Americans, American citizens, by and large, aren't doing those jobs and they're not going to start doing those jobs. So there's a real economic consequence, and I think this is gonna be a lagging indicator, Maggie, that over time in the next year or two, we're gonna feel this more than we do nine months out of these policies. So

Maggie Mitchell Salem 33:02

yep.

Leigh Morgan 33:03

what else around undocumented workers you want listeners to be aware of? Anything that touched on?

Maggie Mitchell Salem 33:11

I, I would just ask everyone to think about those di different sectors and what it means. And, there's also a compelling case to be made for. Increasing the wages of those workers who are here, American citizens or, or workers who can, who have work authorization. let's say you don't have such a ready supply of undocumented labor in the construction industry, that could increase the hourly wages. Maybe even improve conditions on work sites. Okay, let's play this out so it's costing more for the labor. What does that mean to you as someone who's about to go buy a house or you need to hire a company because you need to, redesign some part of your house because you just had a baby, or you need to move your mom or dad in. Or the kids are home and don't have jobs because getting jobs for college grads now is as hard as for those that only have a high school degree, first time in American history, for a different set of reasons. So now your costs have gone up because when your labor supply is decreased and the cost of labor increased, then the cost of everything increased. So now play that out, not just for the cost of your addition or your new home, but for the cost of things at the grocery store.

Leigh Morgan 34:36

Yeah. And we're beginning to see that consumer price increase, which is an index that tracks the cost of, of things that you buy. It's creeping up and there's lots of factors, but this labor shortage, and then now we're trying to deport millions and millions of undocumented workers. That belabors the question of should we be doing that Is there a moral case, to deport these workers? We're just spending some time on the practical consequences

Maggie Mitchell Salem 35:04

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 35:05

in terms of access to services, because a workforce is declining due to these policies. And one other question for you. One of the things about candidate Trump was, he talked about the quote, millions of criminal undocumented workers and we're gonna get the criminals out. And that struck most of us folks who study immigration as a red herring because first of all, hard for an ICE person to determine if someone was a criminal in their home country. Because home countries don't wanna take a lot of time. And sure, we'll get back to you on those 30,000 folks names you sent us, and we'll then we'll let you know. Like we're busy. And they're in your country. And there's really little information to go on of determining. then the other piece which you shared with me, that the rates of crime

Maggie Mitchell Salem 36:03

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan 36:04

in the United States, you are actually safest if you live in an area with a high number of immigrants or undocumented workers. And why

Maggie Mitchell Salem 36:13

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan 36:13

Because immigrants are here, because they've chosen, to wanna be in the United States to become Americans, to contribute to this new country.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 36:21

Yep,

Leigh Morgan 36:21

Or if you're in process, if you commit a crime, you actually immediately get sent away. there tends to be more attentiveness to not

Maggie Mitchell Salem 36:30

yep,

Leigh Morgan 36:30

A law here. And so it's just the irony to me that this is a stereotype. I will say it's dishonest propaganda, trying to demonize entire

Maggie Mitchell Salem 36:43

It is. Yep, it is. And just to add to that, a lot of folks are coming to this fresh, right? And, and. Accepting, whichever, whatever you're hearing from either side. In the arguments over immigration, there's, you know, important baseline facts and one of them is that there was already a way for ice to deport actual criminals. if you have been convicted of a crime and sentenced to more than I think it is 362 or 364 days in jail, on release, you can be turned over to ice. So there was already

Leigh Morgan 37:30

A way

Maggie Mitchell Salem 37:31

a way for this to happen. You can say, maybe we should tighten that up. Maybe it should be six months. Maybe we shouldn't wait for, you know, if they've been in jail for a year, that suggests something very serious. But there are also standards on whether it's a felony. There is existing law here that was doing that job. But of course if you don't know that and a politician tells you, well, we're gonna be doing this, then you would think it doesn't exist and it does.

Leigh Morgan 38:03

that's, that's really important for us to be aware. That's the space in between of understanding. We had a process to do this. Then the space in between is also saying, huh, well, was it enough to enable. Folks who committed a crime to be tracked and they could be identified and then said, sorry, you don't meet our ethical standards here I, I'm not sure I'd want someone to stay if they had a history of committing a crime. So that's the debatable part of was it effective? Did that process work? Yes or no? Maybe we, wanna add some more money so that we could do that better. what we're seeing here, my view is an extreme reaction, for political purposes, to instill fear in the electorate that there are hoards and hoards of undocumented workers who are in fact these horrible criminals. Last point on this issue, we can also understand that there are bad apples who come into the United States and who do commit crimes.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 39:13

Oh yeah,

Leigh Morgan 39:13

things can be true at the same time. And we've seen high profile court cases of a undocumented worker who committed murder

Maggie Mitchell Salem 39:23

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 39:24

that's wrong and that's bad, and that person please send them back right now. Right? That

Maggie Mitchell Salem 39:29

yes.

Leigh Morgan 39:29

has become, uh, feature for the policies to say that as if this is happening all the time. It's kind of like saying all white men are rapists because Jeffrey Epstein was a rapist

Maggie Mitchell Salem 39:45

Yep. Let me just pile on here and say the other part of this is the danger of allowing these specific high profile. Hideous cases to start derailing our democracy. So what happened in the Lake and Riley Act, which was that murder of a beautiful young woman, uh, I think it was in Georgia, the Lake and Riley Act done in her name, actually allows for the, deportation of someone who is accused of a crime, not just convicted.

Leigh Morgan 40:28

That's a big departure. Because we think you may have done it, you now can be deported right away.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 40:37

Yes. And I'm even triple checking, checking myself, The law removes judicial discretion and the ability for a person to be released on bail while the immigration cases pending, even if criminal charges are dropped. That's just one part of the implication

Leigh Morgan 40:56

didn't know that.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 40:58

So we just, we have to hold a lot of information in mind. But it, and it can be confusing, right? I'm in this space and I still have to look up and fact check myself. I, think it comes to something that I think you were touching on earlier. What are our values as a country? Which by the way, let me just throw out again, I never tired of saying it. We are about 35 years overdue for comprehensive immigration reform across the board. Every pathway for all the reasons that we're talking about, we don't have enough workers. We actually need people. We don't need to protect the labor market as much as we did before. We probably need to be more sophisticated. And I'll underscore that by saying again on values. You can have strong borders. You know me, I'm a strong borders girl. I like strong borders. They have meaning. I'm sorry if that offends people who look, do I want John Lennon's? Imagine as my world. Yes. It's a vision. We're not anywhere near that. We, we can't even figure out how to talk to one another even as citizens. So we need secure borders. It does not mean that you treat people inhumanely or disrespect them in enforcing your immigration policies. we need to come together and say, I'm a strong border person. Well, I'm an open border person. Okay, what can we agree on? We can agree on treating people humanely.

Leigh Morgan 42:31

I love that you said that because that really is a place where most Americans can say yes people.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 42:41

too.

Leigh Morgan 42:42

People should be treated humanely, And actually public opinion of polls are showing that the majority of Americans do not like the disruptive policies or tone and tenor coming outta the current administration. And I think that's the case because we hear this dehumanizing, demonizing language it doesn't track with our general experience. we

Maggie Mitchell Salem 43:08

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 43:09

the world, when we meet folks that, you know, they may be from another country and most people are, fundamentally decent. Again, bad apples kick'em out, but we want bad apples or US citizens put in jail. So think this is it.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 43:23

The way, can I just underscore US citizens to be put in jail here for their bad actions, not to be sent to third countries, to, mad Max type prison situations? Yeah. I just wanna underscore, we, we treat everyone humanely regardless of what they have done.

Leigh Morgan 43:41

Yes. That should be a floor and, lots of conversations about whether we do that in our criminal justice system. Now, that's another episode, can you give us some examples you're showing up every day to, help build your organization, help serve the constituencies. are there some bright spots? Where are people mobilizing in ways? That do not feel polarizing, but feel constructive and important.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 44:18

gosh, that is such a great question. We're part of networks, um, immigrant rights organizations, focused on the humane treatment of those that are here, asking the state to do more to protect them. We had, an Afghan interpreter in Connecticut. First name is Zia. Folks can, look him up. Because there were quite a number of news articles about this case. he went for his biometrics interview in East Hartford. he's year on, humanitarian parole with his wife and five kids arrived last year, ice detained him. He's still, two months later detained in Massachusetts. We've had to have conversations with his wife about looking for work, because she will lose access to snap to food stamps. If she doesn't meet the new work requirements. She

Leigh Morgan 45:10

part of the new, um,

Maggie Mitchell Salem 45:12

exactly.

Leigh Morgan 45:13

and policy where we'll find or minus 10 million citizens kicked off of Medicaid. And she's not a citizen, but she was eligible due to the status of she and her husband. Is that

Maggie Mitchell Salem 45:25

Yeah, exactly. And that they have young children. just having those conversations with her is a, is a community project that's brought us together to, to help her understand this shape shifting world she's living in. She's absolutely devastated. Her family's devastated, they're deeply afraid, and no one knows why he's being held, there's no criminal record. There's nothing, nothing at all. And so while she's waiting, we're having to talk to a woman who has just arrived here last year, who does not speak English from a deeply conservative. Background about going out and trying to at least look for work. We have volunteers that are the backbone of our operation, especially as we've had to downsize so significantly because of federal funding cuts. community's donated money to a GoFundMe. And more and more people have been donating to us, which has been incredibly helpful and will be even more helpful next year, when funding is cut again and, we see every day. Outreach. Like we, we have so many people asking to volunteer with us that they're actually annoyed because we're not giving them enough to do, We're having to say, we love you all. We don't have enough work to go around and to manage, you know, hundreds of volunteers who have literally come forward. A call was put out by a, city council alder, in, May to get 30 volunteers. I think it was 30 volunteers in three days. For Iris, we had 350.

Leigh Morgan 47:11

Wow, that's amazing.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 47:13

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan 47:13

people who are all across the country here in Connecticut. I have friends in dc, Baltimore, Boston, here on the left coast, in the Bay Area, in Seattle, Portland. Just people sharing their resources, whether it's making donations, donations, which not everyone can do that. Volunteering time.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 47:36

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 47:36

friends that have an extra room in their house, they're in a blue.city and they have been working with the church community and they have a whole network If someone feels like they're being targeted, the entire family can come stay in this room. And I, I've just been so struck by the kindness

Maggie Mitchell Salem 47:58

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan 47:59

you just described that this motivation for volunteers to show up. And I think that's under reported in the media.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 48:08

Oh, yes

Leigh Morgan 48:08

think it's happening. kindness is like an epidemic

Maggie Mitchell Salem 48:15

it is.

Leigh Morgan 48:15

in part because many of us are seeing the unneeded suffering and reacting to what I would say is a, demonization of entire classes of people, of undocumented workers, as if they're all criminals. One, they aren't. there some bad apples? Yes. Deal with them, using the process that apparently we've had for decades for finding them out. I think it's a nice place for us to wrap up our time, to just remember and recognize and acknowledge that amidst massive disruption amidst the caustic tone and tenor of scapegoating entire groups amidst the economic hardship that will be, I think will just continue to roll out of

Maggie Mitchell Salem 49:03

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan 49:03

of people, 20, 25% of our workforce that has been playing a, vital role for us. Amidst this, there is so much kindness and mobilization and my fervent hope, Maggie, is that. That continues. And we find ways to have the type of conversations we've had here, which is to say, secure borders. Yes. Have that conversation. And there were some ways that the asylum system was being abused. Maybe not out of bad intent, but if things weren't working well, let's,

Maggie Mitchell Salem 49:38

No.

Leigh Morgan 49:38

let's fix them. And that's what the left, I think needs to be more accountable is like these blanket statements of anyone who ever wants to come in, should come in. It's That's just not a realistic way of running a country, nor is it the sort of thing you do if you run a small business

Maggie Mitchell Salem 49:53

no.

Leigh Morgan 49:53

And you are calling us right into that middle.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 49:56

Yes. can I raise one very quick point that I think is another area that's positive and it's dreamers, they're getting lost in the mix here, but they're also getting picked up. It's clear the administration is not necessarily going to respect daca. Just to briefly explain, dreamers are are young people who were brought here as children. They did not have status, and there was a period of time in which they were able to register. Under this daca, this Dreamer program, it was time limited. There's no new registrations. It's been held up in court, and these are young people. I, I know some of them, they're friends of my kids who are now in their late twenties and early thirties. They are like other immigrants that are here contributing. They have, in most cases, not been to or lived in their country of origin from the time they were a toddler. And the prospect of them being sent back not speaking the language, not even really knowing this country and offering so much to us is just so significant. And I just, I just have to call that out because that used to also be another area where there was a way for left and right of center to come together and say, yes, we want to do this. And even President Trump himself in his first term, seemed to be supportive of daca.

Leigh Morgan 51:29

he waffled a little bit, but then he said, no, I think that's fine. And it came out of a place of understanding. These kids have grown up here very much affiliate and see themselves as Americans contributing members of society. Many are in college. I have a dear

Maggie Mitchell Salem 51:45

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 51:45

that graduated from University of Portland. He was two weeks from getting, DACA status and then the Attorney General in Texas filed a motion to stop adding more. And so now he's in, in limbo. And of the smartest, most enterprising young people, college grad

Maggie Mitchell Salem 52:08

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 52:09

awarded for his service and how he helped a lot of different communities. He, he's exactly the sort of. Young man that you want to say, can you please run for office? Because your integrity and leadership skills. And I actually believe we're gonna find some movement on that, Maggie. That gives me some hope.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 52:29

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan 52:30

I think we will see that's a real easy place, for people to come together. And despite some of the increasingly negative rhetoric, I'm gonna hold out, hope that this may be an area that does not get as much attention as we finish up here. Let's pretend you have a magic wand. And I trust you to have wands, my friend, because you're and balanced and spunky and have views and care about the space in between. What one wish for listeners to feel. A sense of agency react to this current situation in ways that can be helpful.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 53:17

I'd ask them to think about their own family history. for most of your listeners, that history is immigrant in some way. And two, Seek that space in between. Not because I'm trying to promote your show, but because if more of us don't live there and aren't willing to, you know, I, I wish if I had a magic wand, every time we go on social media, there would be a surgeon general warning that said, the algorithm will tell you what you want to hear and will remind you of that. Every time you open a social media site Just as a reminder, remind yourself of that. And there are places that you can go to find facts which exist to understand those, to understand the range of options around them that neither. Demonize people you don't know. Think about your own family and think about your friends and think about those in your community that you know and like, or even love. And look for that. yeah, sure. It's complicated, but it's not that complicated. We all have a gut. Connected to your heart, because I think most people's hearts are in the right place. I think most people are good and kind and just like, it's just a tiny fraction of immigrants. Just like it's a tiny fraction of Americans that are criminals of the sort that we don't really like. And one gets to stay here and the other should be sent home. Most people want to do good and want to do right by one another. And when we can leave those places that encourage us to categorize entire groups of people as x to remember that there's no entire group of people that can ever be summed up in two or three adjectives. and again, keeping in mind your own family and, and those around you that you love and care about,

Leigh Morgan 55:22

When we think of our families, we're able to connect with real people, real stories.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 55:28

I.

Leigh Morgan 55:28

And storytelling unveils, humanness. And when we can be our most human with each other, then that's where real connection happens and that's where that integration, I think of gut, heart, and brain happens. And the space in between really is a space of kindness.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 55:49

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan 55:50

a space of great debate, of other feelings,

Maggie Mitchell Salem 55:54

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan 55:55

anger, maybe it's a place of great agency and that's who you are. Maggie, I have really enjoyed this conversation as heavy as it was at sometimes we also need to really talk about the reality then remind ourselves that there is an abundance of kindness and goodness out there. I think things might get. Harder before they get better. That's possible with this topic. But I'm confident with folks like you and others and listeners who are saying, we're just gonna keep signing up, that

Maggie Mitchell Salem 56:26

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 56:26

Can find a way forward that demonstrates the parts of our country that we love, uh, which is that we value people and can treat people humanely with dignity and still disagree

Maggie Mitchell Salem 56:40

Yes. And if you have the right to vote.

Leigh Morgan 56:43

Let's do that as well, Maggie. Thank you for being on the space in between.

Maggie Mitchell Salem 56:48

Thank you so much. Great to be back.

Leigh Morgan 56:51

Bye for now.

56:54

I hope you. Enjoyed this episode of the space in between podcast. If. If you did, please hit the like button and leave a review. Wherever you listen to the show. And check out the space. Space in between.com website, where you can also leave me a message.