The Morgan Sisters: A Story of Bridging Divides

Most weeks on The Space In Between, host Leigh Morgan talks with leaders, innovators, and bridge builders out in the world. This week, she invites you into something closer: a candid conversation with her sister, Melinda Morgan Thomas, about the complicated alchemy of sibling relationships—and their slow burn journey from rivalry to real closeness.

Along the way, the Morgan sisters explore how family dynamics shape our assumptions, how trust is rebuilt through “micro-moments,” and why their story has important – and transferable - lessons for anyone trying to create healthier dynamics at home, at work, and in community. This episode is touching, tender, and inspiring!

Transcript

Leigh Morgan-1: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Space In Between Podcast. I'm your host, Lee Morgan. I'm glad you are here, and thank you for sharing this virtual space together. Today's episode is a little different and very close to my heart.

Leigh Morgan-1: Most weeks I talk with leaders, innovators, and bridge builders out in the world. Today I'm inviting you into my living room in a sense for a conversation with someone who has known me my entire life. My sister, Melinda, Morgan, Thomas, Melinda, and I did not grow up as picture perfect. Always harmonious sisters, if there is such a thing.

Leigh Morgan-1: We actually bickered a lot. , We misunderstood each other, and for a long time it was not easy. Over the years and through a lot of growing up, some hard moments in our family and a willingness to keep coming back to each other, our relationship transformed into one of the deepest, [00:01:00] most joyful connections in my life, and in a world that often feels flooded with polarization, uncertainty, and distrust.

Leigh Morgan-1: It dawned on me that our sibling story is actually a small case study. How do two strong-willed people who don't always

Leigh Morgan-1: or experience the world the same way, move, from tension to trust, and from distance to real closeness. And what can that teach us all about repairing relationships and bridging divides far beyond our own family.

Leigh Morgan-1: Melinda is my older sister. She's my wiser sister for sure. She is an accomplished, well-respected education lawyer in Oregon. She's mom. She is mom to three wonderful kids and is partner to her equally awesome husband, Rob. But today you'll hear us as two-spirited and card [00:02:00] carrying Scorpios, talking honestly about conflict forgiveness and choosing each other over and over again.

Leigh Morgan-1: Mel, welcome to the Space in Between podcast.

melinda: Hey sis, happy to be here. This is gonna be a really interesting conversation and I can't wait to hear how we. Share perspectives and maybe have different perspectives on our relationship. It's going to be a really personal and, , interesting and meaningful , conversation.

melinda: So thanks for having me.

Leigh Morgan-1: I'm glad that you're here and I should let, uh, or I should mention, you've been such a great supporter of the podcast, so thanks for that. And this is definitely new territory for, for both of us to be on a podcast together. And, it's the late winter holiday season now, and so it feels really good to dive into something personal.

Leigh Morgan-1: , So anyway, let's, let's dive in. , I mentioned that both of us are, well, fairly spirited in terms of our opinions. , We both [00:03:00] often take stands for the underdog and occasionally we're known for being fairly direct in sharing our views.

Leigh Morgan-1: , Does that ring a bell for you?

melinda: Oh, it rings a huge bell. , I have to chuckle quite a bit. We're both very spirited and if I can start off with a funny story that I recall from our childhood. know, you, you stood up for an underdog and I believe it was second grade, and you had a, a teacher that was, I don't know, chastising or disciplining this kid that you felt was the underdog and you talked back to the teacher about it.

melinda: And I remember I was in third grade. We're just a year apart. And so that's an interesting dynamic, um, just the closeness isn't in age. But I do remember mom and dad having to go and talk to the principal and the teacher because you had gotten in trouble for back talking your second grade teacher because you stood up for another kid in the class that you felt was an underdog.

melinda: So yeah, we're, we're born with this spirit and of this nature [00:04:00] that, we contend with now.

Leigh Morgan-1: Yes, I know it brings much pleasure to others.

melinda: Yeah. Maybe.

Leigh Morgan-1: Yeah, and , you know, you're an education lawyer and , so much of what you do is you advocate for kids, you advocate for parents, and you advocate for teachers and also the staff. And balancing all of that is really hard. You do that really well. But I know you've spoken so passionately about, uh, particularly kids that need, , individual development plans and kids who may have some mental or emotional challenges .

Leigh Morgan-1: And, um, just thanks for that work. It's, it's so important, especially today where there's so much stress in the world.

melinda: Thanks. It is really important work. It's, it's difficult work, but you know, when you, when you focus on the kids, it makes it a lot easier.

Leigh Morgan-1: Well, let's get started, and I'm gonna ask you a question that I ask all my guests. Where does your spirited willful nature come from?

melinda: Willful. Am I [00:05:00] willful? I, I guess my husband would say I am. Probably my kids would too. You know, I, I, I don't really know. , I do think that people are generally born with either a fight or flight instinct, and I think both of us, in my estimation, we're born with a fight instinct. It's kind of second nature, you know?

melinda: I also wonder if we inherited a little bit of it from our mom, um, who is a wonderful woman. , Was very opinionated and, and she had a really strong sense of justice and fairness. And , I'd like to think that we inherited that from our mom. Um, but honestly, I also think that, you know, I, I suspect we'll get into this a little bit more, but as you mentioned in the introduction, we had a really Sibling relationship growing up. And it was pretty competitive in my mind. It's almost like competitive sisterhood. You know, we were a year and five days apart and, , in retrospect we were a lot alike, I think, much more so than what we thought at the time. And sh we were both [00:06:00] athletes. You were an elite athlete, and I was not, but we were on the same sports teams and , through that we shared friends , but it was a competitive, um, sibling relationship, I think.

melinda: And so I think that sort of honed , at least my fight, um, instinct a little bit to kind of fight for my, my space. .

Leigh Morgan-1: I didn't know that. That's interesting. , You know, I've talked, uh, a fair bit, I would say, especially after mom passed in December, 2019. Right. About our, our upbringing and experience, , growing up. But , I didn't know that that for you kind of honed that competitive side

Leigh Morgan-1: I think for me. You know, I was just a little baby dyke, right?

Leigh Morgan-1: , You were the, , good at fashion, you were, , you know, wore makeup, , pretty popular. You cared about clothes and things that were just really foreign to me. I didn't know how to relate to that. And as a young kid, I didn't have any sense that I, I would later come out and that sort of thing, [00:07:00] but I was just trying to fit in.

Leigh Morgan-1: And so sports for me was just such an easy expression of, first of all, lots of joy and lots of fun because I'm active. And then I, I do have , athletic, uh, capabilities. You do too. You're actually faster than I am, if you recall. But my hand eye coordination,

melinda: do

Leigh Morgan-1: yeah, you do. You do. Remember that.

Leigh Morgan-1: That's good. Um, and I like what you said about mom. She really, such a big hearted person and she grew up poor, really, really poor and, put herself through college. No one in her family went to college and, she never really forgot what it was like to not have much. And then in our family system, we were, I think middle class and then his dad's career grew.

Leigh Morgan-1: You know, he would run the paper mill that employed most of the people in a small town. So we were kind of on a upper middle class track. [00:08:00] So we had enough financial resources. Uh, we never , had big cars or fancy houses. But I think for mom, she never lost track of the the fact that it was really hard for her mom as a single mom, you know, to make ends meet.

melinda: Yeah, I think that's, I think that's a really wise perspective and something that you see. Or said, um, about, you know, you were just trying to , fit in. And I was the, you know, you're right. I was the child in our family. That kind of was, um, more typical. And I say that in the context of we were raised in small mill towns.

Leigh Morgan-1: Yeah.

melinda: and so, you know, you being gay in that environment, whether you knew it at the time or know, identified with that later in life, I think that was a really hard place for you. And like you said, you found that belonging and you found that fitting in, in the, in your sports. But from [00:09:00] my perspective, I was jealous a little bit of your, um, athletic prowess.

melinda: You're very well known in our, in the towns we , grew up in, um. They weren't big and everybody knew Lee Morgan because you made our towns proud with your athletic, um, achievements. And I was, you are right. I was an athlete too. I wasn't as good as you. Um, but I was on the same sports teams.

melinda: And so from my perspective, I think we both look at each other and think, I wish I had a little bit of that, or I wish I enjoyed a little bit of that attention for the different reasons that we enjoyed it.

Leigh Morgan-1: Yeah. And then one way that. Our, lack of sibling connection. I like, I don't actually remember us playing a lot together. I think as a kid, you know, maybe under five. Yes. But then after that we didn't, we didn't play much together and in fact we didn't, we just didn't spend a lot of time together.

melinda: Yeah, I would agree with that. In fact, my, one of my. Memories of growing up over the arc of our childhood is [00:10:00] fighting with you, being at odds with you. I don't remember playing with you, but I do remember fighting with you and we bickered and we're just at odds. Um, you know, I, I remember when we were in early grade school and we would be driving somewhere.

melinda: Mom would be driving the car and we'd be buckled in. I don't even know if they had seat belts at the time, but we were in the backseat, and I remember we would always draw this imaginary line in the middle of the backseat, which was like a bucket or like a bench seat, and we couldn't touch even a centimeter over the line into the other sister's territory.

melinda: And I also think that we sort of provoked one another a little bit. Like I, I, I kind of remember just touching over there, like

Leigh Morgan-1: I am sure you, you did most of the provoking, I'm sure you,

melinda: sure. sure that's how you wanna remember it.

Leigh Morgan-1: I remember that too when we were in that Dotson B 10, that green car with, with no air conditioning, which wasn't a big deal because [00:11:00] we were in the Pacific Northwest. , Pre global warming, it didn't get that hot during the summer. So yeah, I, I remember that as well.

Leigh Morgan-1: Look at us now, because we certainly transformed all of this in beautiful ways, but sometimes I think, oh, I kind of wish that we had more fun as kids, um, that we missed out. And yet I don't have regrets, you know, there's hard things happen and I kind of tend to step into them and try to go through them, right?

Leigh Morgan-1: But I, I very rarely do I look back on a relationship or experience and say, oh, I wish it was different.

Leigh Morgan-1: But sometimes I do. I think, oh, what fun we could have had.

melinda: Yeah, I agree. I think there were a couple things going on when we were growing up. I think you and I were competitive with one another and we probably actively disliked each other. . You know, we just, it, it was like foreign to us to be kind to one another.

melinda: But I also think that there wasn't a lot of joy in our house. I don't look back at [00:12:00] our childhood and think it was an unhappy childhood by any, stretch of imagination. But I do think that our mother struggled with some depression

melinda: you know, had some frustrations with her life and, and, and her role, , in our family.

melinda: And I think that we felt that, and so there were some negative dynamics in our family that sort of made it a little more difficult to find some joy and find opportunities to play together or connect. And, and so I think we looked to other things. You look to sports, I looked to my social life. Um, you know, I had boyfriends in high school, so it was just more outward of the, from the family where we found our, uh, belonging more.

Leigh Morgan-1: Yeah, that, that sense of a little bit of a coolness of a family culture. , I do wanna say we were safe. We had a very safe environment. , We were, you know, one of the, honestly few women haven't had sexual assault. We [00:13:00] haven't had the sort of.

Leigh Morgan-1: , Physical, , safety issues, , that too many, , women , just thinking about that as, as sisters,

melinda: Yeah.

Leigh Morgan-1: , We knew we were loved, right? We knew that and we were encouraged to be our best selves to go to college to, sure, you wanna play sports, let's do that.

Leigh Morgan-1: We had, , resources, right? So this was a, a, these are privileges and things that not everyone shares.

Leigh Morgan-1: And yeah, , what's also true is you and I maybe manifested that kind of cool relationship. And what do you think it was like for mom and dad to experience us as they did.

melinda: Oh, our poor parents, I mean, we fought all the time and, you know, our dad still talks about that to this day and he, he was, he likes to tell the story to me. And probably to, you've heard this, that, you know, when I graduated high school and I went off to college and I came back for the first time at Thanksgiving [00:14:00] you know, , he shared that he and mom had hoped that, , the absence would make the heart grow fonder and we would get along and that would be sort of the turning point in our relationship.

melinda: But I walked back into the, uh, into our home and within five minutes we were at each other's throat again.

melinda: And so I think it was really frustrating and disappointing for them. I think it was a source of stress for mom for sure, because she was a stay at home mom and we fought all the time. And that's hard,

Leigh Morgan-1: Yeah.

melinda: parent to navigate.

melinda: I've got three kids and they all have loving great relationships, you know, better relationships growing up than I think you and I had. But , they still fought and it's hard as a parent to navigate that.

melinda: And then when you add on a layer of unhappiness in our parents, um, and I think, you know, I think that made the dynamics. challenging, especially for mom. Dad had a career where he wasn't in the home as much where mom was and she didn't have a lot of her own, , interests endeavors.

melinda: So I think it was hard for her to get away [00:15:00] from that, and it was very difficult.

Leigh Morgan-1: And she's also a cancer. And we had three Scorpios, , you, me, and dad. And you know, I'm not a big astro astrology person, but the stereotype is cancer is like our water signs and just. Suck up all sorts of emotional, , energy.

Leigh Morgan-1: Given that, I mean, it's remarkable how resilient she was and she just kept loving on us so hard.

Leigh Morgan-1: And I that's true for dad also, but more in kind of his rational man, , a little more emotionally distanced way, which for his generation and, and he's a chemical engineer, and so the man is a, as left brain as you can get.

melinda: He is, he is the classic engineer. Um, but, you know, I do wanna be clear and, , and emphasize what you just said, is that we were well loved and well supported in our childhood.

melinda: There were just some dynamics as there are in every family that had an overlay and , you know, had an impact on us. And I [00:16:00] think, um, there were a lot of blessings too.

melinda: Um,

Leigh Morgan-1: lots of blessings. We had extra sets of grandparents because there were, was divorce in that generation. So I remember having go see grandma, go see grandma, go see grandma. , Uh, during Christmas or Thanksgiving we just had all these grandparents and I didn't know any different. So that, that was kind of a, a really fun thing.

melinda: Yeah. We had Grandma Shirley, grandma Jean, grandma Eileen, and Grandma Elsie.

Leigh Morgan-1: It's amazing. And Grandpa George and then, , dad's dad who died or died young at age 55. So we, we didn't know, grandpa Morgan that, that well, um,

Leigh Morgan-1: well, listen, I, how would you describe, so we kind of set a table, we bickered a lot , but there was, there was a transformation that happened and you mentioned, you know, when the first time you came home from college, I was a senior, you were a freshman.

Leigh Morgan-1: What was your experience of the transformation, which I think did , [00:17:00] begin to happen when you went to college.

melinda: Yeah, for me, I don't think it was when I went to college, I think it's when I graduated from college and then I got married and we were living in Kansas City and it was a slow transition for us too. It wasn't like one year our relationship changed. I think it was a very slow burn. Um, but , I got married to my husband Rob, who is a peacemaker.

melinda: He's a great guy. He's gregarious, and I think you, and he hit it off very quickly and . I think that helped diffuse the tension a bit between us. So it gave us a third person to kind of. Connect through in a way.

melinda: I also remember, I, I remember distinctly you coming to Kansas City to visit us when we were living there. I do remember going out to dinner with you and it's, when you came out to me, it was

Leigh Morgan-1: Yeah.

melinda: of us. Rob was at home, my husband was at home. Um, and suspect I didn't respond exactly as you were hoping to, although I genuinely [00:18:00] didn't care that you were gay. You know, I think I was trying to build a conversation with you and I, I recall asking you, well, do you think this is a phase?

melinda: And now I think back at that and I'm, I cringe.

melinda: Um, but you know, was in the early nineties and , . This was just not an experience that we had a lot. Um, and we didn't have a lot of experience with that, but I think that the most important thing about that memory is that you trusted me as your first family member that you came out to. , And that was a big deal for you. I'm sure it was a big deal for you. And it was a big deal for me too.

melinda: Like, wait, she's, she's talking to me about something extremely personal and we've had not a very personal relationship. And so it, for me, that conversation was instrumental in kind of resetting our relationship a bit and connecting on a different level.

melinda: And then, I started having to ki having kids. I've got three kids, um, and. Uh, you were clearly committed from the get go to have a [00:19:00] really close relationship and be the most awesome aunt, ever, and you still are.

melinda: , And I think that that helped us further bridge the divides that we had. , We had another thing to connect us.

melinda: Um, you a and to be honest, you know, you didn't seem very interested in my life when I was growing up and my social life, and I was probably not expressing a lot of interest in all of your athletic endeavors, but having these kids was a shared interest for us. Like, it, it meant a lot to me that you were interested in something in my life and not just interested, but absolutely committed.

melinda: I think, think that really helped. And now I'd say we're really close.

melinda: It's, it's, one of my core relationships that I treasure. My, my marriage, my kids and my sister, um, are so important in my life now. And it's just really. Amazing to look back at the arc and to know how It took a long time, but we did, we, we bridged that divide.

melinda: [00:20:00] Do you, do you recall it differently, Lee?

Leigh Morgan-1: , I, I have my own version of those events where, you know, it took me a while to figure out, come to terms of like, this, this wasn't a phase for me of dating women or being in a relationship or two with women. And then , oh, this kind of fits.

Leigh Morgan-1: And so to take a risk and actually come out to you was, yeah, that was a big deal for me. I remember being really nervous about it. And I do remember you kind of, freezing out, but, but just being shocked. Right?

Leigh Morgan-1: But then later you and mom told me that you thought I was gay, you know?

Leigh Morgan-1: 'cause I, , I was playing with trucks, you know, you were playing with dolls. . And so, um, yeah. Yeah.

melinda: The fact that you were gay? It was, I think I was more shocked by, wow, she's telling me about this[00:21:00] 

Leigh Morgan-1: I didn't know that. ,

melinda: Relationship.

Leigh Morgan-1: I didn't know you had that. Re And by the way, not all young, you know. Gay kids, uh, girls play with trucks. But for me, , back in the day, there was much more like, you play with trucks, you're, , either feminine or not feminine.

Leigh Morgan-1: You know, there was much more of a binary piece there.

Leigh Morgan-1: So coming out to you was a big deal and I really appreciated that. Right away you said, I just want you to know it doesn't matter to me. I wanna support you. . , You actually were really clear about that and , it was really helpful.

Leigh Morgan-1: But you know, that's the thing about building trust or building deep connections, whether it's with a sibling or even in intimate partnerships, you know, you have to take risks.

Leigh Morgan-1: There was a risk that I might feel rejected by you. Um, and I wasn't, so I really appreciate that. I also remember that weekend I made you and rob a dinner, a tofu dinner.

Leigh Morgan-1: Do you remember that?

melinda: I don't remember that,

Leigh Morgan-1: I [00:22:00] do, because I botched it and I was like, oh, I'm gonna introduce tofu to them. And the two of you looked at each other like, what the hell is this mess on my plate? At least that's what I,

melinda: nineties. I'm not sure how good the tofu was back then. And to be fair, I still don't like tofu to this day,

Leigh Morgan-1: and to be fair, I still botch most things that I make. So that, that was also kind of a double whammy for me coming out and botching a tofu dish. Like what a traumatic weekend. I say that with a wink.

Leigh Morgan-1: . And then the minute I held Cole, , my oldest nephew.

Leigh Morgan-1: . I remember flying to Kansas City and just holding coal, and I remember literally it was just like a spiritual knowing of , this is my kin. I love this human being here, my arms, and I wanna be in his life. And I knew it meant that there had to be a reconciliation [00:23:00] between us, you know?

Leigh Morgan-1: And I, I didn't even think, would you meet me in that? But that, that was my calling, that in order to really be in his life, I needed to be in your life in a new way, which meant I had to open myself up to possibilities of new ways of connecting with you.

Leigh Morgan-1: I had shared with you that I was gay, so again, there was like this layer of like a little more trust, a little more, me being my authentic self, letting my guard down. You and then you had, , another beautiful baby Alexa, and then another one Brandon. And , , I knew I wanted to be in their life as well.

Leigh Morgan-1: Then you and I started connecting in new ways and then that was kind of its own, own beauty and fun and reconnecting in a way that really launched this new arc that we're on.

melinda: Yeah, I, I, I think that that was huge and I will say. , Lee, you showed up in spades for my kids. You are the aunt that it's, you're more than an aunt to them, and you show up with them. You have a [00:24:00] beautiful relationship with them. Um, and so thank you for that. ,

melinda: And the interesting thing is, is that I, I'm not sure I expected that of you. Um, I don't think either one of us grew up around little kids. I didn't babysit. You didn't babysit. I don't think we, we lived in the country. We had acreage with horses and all that, so that could have been part of it, but we just weren't oriented. At least I wasn't around little kids.

melinda: And so when you showed up for this precious baby Cole, , when he was born and just connected and with all three of the kids, it was an amazing sight to see.

melinda: It was truly amazing. So thank you.

Leigh Morgan-1: Hmm, no thanks. Needed. And, , you and Rob have raised three amazing young humans in, they're mid to, to late twenties, Cole's 30 now.

Leigh Morgan-1: They're kind, thoughtful, introspective, and I'm so proud [00:25:00] of them and , credit to you and Rob.

Leigh Morgan-1: . , But thanks. I, I love, I, you know, Cole, Brandon and Alexa are just so deep in my heart. So it's, it's reciprocal.

Leigh Morgan-1: And I wanna ask you about a big moment in our lives, which was mom descending into Alzheimer's.

Leigh Morgan-1: And we have this arc of kind of not connecting and then building this relationship and some, you getting married your career kids, these moments for me and my career as it's taken different shapes and form and supporting each other.

Leigh Morgan-1: And, and a big moment for us was, was mom, you know, first we were told it was just, , cognitive challenges for age related, and then she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's and about from, it was about a 10 year from diagnoses to her passing and she [00:26:00] lived with you for five of those years and then we got her into an assisted living memory care where she was for five years.

Leigh Morgan-1: How do you think our, our journey helped us provide care and love for mom?

melinda: Yeah, I think that that was another bridge for us to connect. , Um, it was a really difficult experience. but I think it created an emotional bond and, and a practical partnership. So we had to work together to ensure mom's care and make sure that she good care of.

melinda: And we had to make some pretty tough decisions, you know, when we moved her from her own home into our home. And then when we moved her from our home into memory care, that was just so agonizing.

melinda: , Those are hard decisions and I think that it brought us. Together emotionally, but also in a partnership, you know, kind of practical. ,

melinda: And then I remember it culminating when we were on her deathbed, um, when she was on her deathbed in memory care and we were together [00:27:00] holding our hands

Leigh Morgan-1: Yeah.

melinda: and we, , helped escort her into the next phase of her being. And it was a very moving and emotional experience.

melinda: And so it's an experience that I wouldn't wish on anybody else because of how difficult it was.

melinda: But there were some blessings in it also. And one of which is the strengthening of our emotional bond. And what I, I think is a partnership with you now.

Leigh Morgan-1: . We didn't have much conflict around mom or her care . Sometimes we would trade off of, I can't talk to, to the memory care folks. I'm mad you call. It's like, okay, I'll make that call. , She was in a, great facility and inevitably there were moments where we felt we needed to give some clear and direct feedback.

Leigh Morgan-1: About her care, which we did, and you were in town and handled most of that on a daily basis. [00:28:00] But on other times it was like, Lee, you gotta call because I'm about ready to throw a water balloon on their head.

melinda: Yeah. A ack of something else. Yeah, we had a couple of moments, but,

Leigh Morgan-1: You did? Yeah,

melinda: it's difficult. I think everybody who has a loved one who experiences Alzheimer's can appreciate the, um, challenges, um, with that. And it was a tough time, but I'm really grateful that we were, we did that together.

Leigh Morgan-1: we did that. And I , I know I've shared this with you, but I just wanna thank you because I think you in a way, dealt with the bulk of the emotional daily ebb and flow of her life, ? Because you were in Bend, Oregon and mom was in a facility I was in. Seattle most of the time. , I would get down usually once a month, I think, for a good part of four or five years to spend time with her.

Leigh Morgan-1: , But you dealt with kind of the daily [00:29:00] things, which plays to your strength. I mean, you're a multitasker, you get things done, you're super organized. But I sometimes think that you dealt with more of the emotional, um, ebb and flow just because there were so many things to do to make sure her care was consistent.

melinda: Yeah, , it's, I think it's just sort of like being a mom to the kids too.

melinda: I mean, there's all the logistic issues. Logistical issues of taking care of somebody who lives with you with Alzheimer's and then visiting her in the memory care facility, but. It wasn't always easy. And there's a, there's a huge range of emotions, , from that experience.

melinda: I remember feeling guilty because I, you know, I'd get impatient with mom sometimes. , Now I look back and I just think, oh my gosh, why? Why was I so impatient? Couldn't I have just my emotions a little bit and been there more present for her rather than just taking care of the logistical details of her life and, , all of that.

melinda: And so it wasn't easy, [00:30:00] but anybody who's been a caregiver for somebody who has Alzheimer's, um, they, they know it. It's an, it's a hard path.

Leigh Morgan-1: It's a hard path.

Leigh Morgan-1: , one of the blessings from. My experiences with mom , , , mom taught me so much about mindfulness and presence of however mom is, that is what I have to show up for and accept. Right? I could not control her influence whether she felt huggy or whether she would look at me like, who are you?

Leigh Morgan-1: No, I do not wanna play with that stuffed animal you just brought in.

Leigh Morgan-1: And that wasn't a kind of an amazing, I. Lesson, looking back of the, the lesson of however she is, my, my job as daughter was just to show up and accept that and go with the flow.

Leigh Morgan-1: Did you ever have any of those experiences?

melinda: You know, honestly, I think I was so, , in the weeds on, I mean. , The hardest years were, when she [00:31:00] came to live with me and my family and I was parenting three kids. They had, you know, all their sports events and activities.

melinda: My husband was working, I was working more than full-time. And so honestly, I think I was in survival mode, um, a lot during those years just

Leigh Morgan-1: Yeah.

melinda: navigate a career and kids and marriage and mom and all of that.

melinda: And so , you know, I was also going through menopause at the times. That's not helpful.

Leigh Morgan-1: What.

melinda: Uh, you know, brain fog is real, folks. Um, . I don't think of it in term in those terms. I just think I was surviving honestly. And I was so grateful when you did come down because you came down as frequently as you possibly could and really gave me a break.

melinda: And you were the one that was more present for mom, where I was the one trying to do the logistics of taking care of her, which weren't always easy, you know, trying to get her to bed or trying to , organize her day. , And her care. And she didn't always make it easy because she was in the throes of Alzheimer's and, and there's some anger issues that a lot of Alzheimer's, , patients experience and that impacts the families that they live [00:32:00] with.

melinda: And

Leigh Morgan-1: Yeah.

melinda: I just really appreciate that, that you brought that to her because sometimes I didn't feel like I could.

Leigh Morgan-1: Well, , maybe you didn't feel that way, but I saw you still show up with gifts and flowers and little things, so that, , even in that survival mode, time for you, it was, it was a touching and inspiring to me. I don't actually, I don't think I've ever shared that with you.

Leigh Morgan-1: Yeah. So much kindness that you, you still had and were able to share.

melinda: Like that at times.

Leigh Morgan-1: Well, thinking about times when it is stressful, . We talk a lot on the space in between podcasts about practices that help us stay grounded in both our convictions, things that we care about, beliefs that we have, that we hold dear and.

Leigh Morgan-1: That in these times, it's also really important to bridge divides and that we need to do both. We can't do both always at the same time, and yet the [00:33:00] intention to do so requires us to find ways to stay grounded.

Leigh Morgan-1: And what have you learned about staying grounded, either from kind of our arc as siblings or just going through some of these tough periods of time yourself?

melinda: That's a tough one 'cause I don't always feel very grounded.

melinda: Um. I think for me, connection is super important. And I think, not just personal connection, but remembering that despite how the media wants to portray us, all the divisions out there, all the, all the rhetoric. I really, truly believe that if we can find connection and commonalities with the people that are in our lives or the people that we come across, that is so important.

melinda: And I also really fundamentally believe that we're all more alike than what the media wants to portray us [00:34:00] as.

melinda: If you look at our values, and even if you were to put a, you know, a Trumper and a super left wing person in a room together, and on the surface they don't share a lot of, um, perspectives because that's what we're made to believe by the media, but.

melinda: But I think that if we kind of make a mental list of, well, what values do I have? I'm betting that those values overlap with the Trumpers on the, and the far left side, there are so many values and things that we have in common that we forget about. and it can be on a micro level.

melinda: I mean, you can have a conversation about, Hey, do you have kids?

melinda: Yes, I have kids. And what do they, do? They play sports. Oh, my, my daughter plays volleyball. How about yours? Oh yeah, they, she plays, there's so many micro connections that can be made and commonalities, but there's also macro connections.

melinda: Like , we don't often talk this way, but if you were to make a mental [00:35:00] list of the values that you. um, you know, we all kind of want the same thing and it's just a matter of how you get there, and that's where we kind of get lost in the weeds.

melinda: , I don't think we share so many differences. We just have fears about what we don't know.

melinda: And so connections on the macro and micro level help us bridge that. , And , the fear decreases when you start learning about somebody and realizing everything that you have in common. And we get lost in that.

Leigh Morgan-1: I think that's so wise , and I'll put a link to a podcast I did on this topic. , It's a podcast on is polarization and illusion,

melinda: Yeah.

Leigh Morgan-1: and I shared some research and similar reflections that there is more in common than not. And you're just talking to that.

Leigh Morgan-1: . Earlier in our conversation you said we're more sim similar than not. How do you see that? ? 'Cause I think for us, discovering that helped [00:36:00] us in our connection and then bridging divides, which, , whether it was , don't put your hand over the imaginary line in the backseat of the car, but also just really different lives that we have led, but , we've still found each other.

melinda: Yeah, I, uh, I, I think back our childhood, and I am absolutely convinced that if we weren't siblings, we would've been very close friends. , I think we were a lot alike. I think we both liked a lot of the same things, and we shared a lot of interests, and we shared the same perspective on friends and and our family.

melinda: It's just that at the time we were, you know, growing up, we were kids. , We didn't have the maturity to think beyond ourselves. And that's, that's the job of a kid, is to be self-focused. And, and it's not until you grow up and acquire some life experiences that you can reflect a bit more.

melinda: , But going back to the commonalities, we had so many commonalities. We really did, but we just didn't see it in [00:37:00] each other at the time.

Leigh Morgan-1: Yeah, , I think that's true.

Leigh Morgan-1: And , I think about your work. In education as a lawyer.

Leigh Morgan-1: And you mentioned that a, way to stay grounded is to find connection, right? On issues that might be less emotive than a political issue, and that that's a place to cultivate and grow so that we can let our guard down.

Leigh Morgan-1: . How do you see that playing out in, in your work, not just in your district, but more broadly in education?

Leigh Morgan-1: You know, because everyone cares about kids. Everyone wants kids to thrive, , I think that's a shared aspirations. Parents want that.

Leigh Morgan-1: Teachers want that administrators show up, trying to make that happen. And how have you seen that play out in ways where folks have come together across divides now?

melinda: Yeah, that's an interesting question. And I think that's where the, the macro commonalities come in and the connections [00:38:00] come in a lot, and I've actually had a lot of conversations. I work with two wonderful lawyers, and talked a lot about that because I represent, um, many school districts in the central Oregon region, and we've had school board members that are card carrying moms for Liberty members.

melinda: And then we've had school board members that are on the complete opposite political spectrum. And we've had a, we've had some in terms of school board drama.

melinda: Um, and , it's a contentious time in, in this education industry for sure, because it's political where it used to not be so political.

melinda: It used to be, you know, school board meetings. . It was just boring. . Now it's like a, it's a forum, um, to carry out our political divides.

melinda: , But. Talking with my colleagues about this, you know, , we all feel pretty fortunate that we at least have the framework of the rule of law. We have that framework that unites us whether we like the laws or not, whether we [00:39:00] agree with, um, the law is, is not the point.

melinda: The point is is that we have a common framework to do our jobs and work with our, , districts. Um, and so that's helpful.

melinda: But I also think what you said that, you know, we all want the same things. , And one of the things that I remember from our childhood, , I, I always viewed you with the worst of intentions. Like, I assumed the worst in you we were so at odds. But

Leigh Morgan-1: Hmm.

melinda: as I've gotten older and had some life experiences and had some really amazing relationships, try to assume the best in everybody now.

melinda: And I think that's something that I wish more people would do because I think it, it resets the conversation to something more positive, and helps build the connection.

melinda: And so I have board members that I work with that are very different , but I assume the best in them.

melinda: They care for kids. , You don't just get on a volunteer school board and go through an

Leigh Morgan-1: Yeah. [00:40:00] Yeah.

melinda: don't truly care for kids and want them to thrive. How we get there is a different issue, but we can have conversations about that.

Leigh Morgan-1: Yeah. I mean, that's the passion , you know, the Moms for Liberty movement, . The impetus for that is the moms care, let's just say they care and they're very passionate. And , we might, we, and I'm not ta saying you, because I know in your job you're officially, neutral.

Leigh Morgan-1: You're here to help everybody.

Leigh Morgan-1: But wherever we identify, if you're on the left, you might say, oh, I don't really like the expression of that care. But folks on the right might say, I don't like the expression of that far left policy approaches for education.

Leigh Morgan-1: But, but there's, that's the passion in between.

Leigh Morgan-1: And I'm kind of struck about our arc as we've been talking about it, of like, we're both really passionate people, we're strong-willed, we're opinionated, and yet we found connection with each other.

Leigh Morgan-1: And then you've offered that as advice around the way for us to find connection.[00:41:00] 

Leigh Morgan-1: Other people, whether it's in the workplace or elsewhere. I think that's really powerful.

melinda: Yeah. My job is to build the trust and confidence of my clients and my clients are ultimately the school boards, and so. have to find a way to bridge those divides and find those commonalities as we did in our, in our sibling relationship.

melinda: And I'm doing as best I can, doesn't mean I don't get frustrated with some people and some of the things that they say

melinda: , . But that person cared about their kids.

Leigh Morgan-1: yeah, yeah. It's remarkable. You're able to stay in that, what I would call the space in between. Surprise.

Leigh Morgan-1: , But I, I have a question for you. Where do you. Personally locate the space in between. And, the way I think about the space in between is when emotionally or spiritually , we can hold two different perspectives as equally important, where we can [00:42:00] actually find and locate that someone might say something I disagree with, but the place that that comes from is worthy and important to understand.

melinda: Yeah.

Leigh Morgan-1: And sometimes we just can't be in that space. And so that's where self-awareness, knowing our boiling points, if you, if you're near a boiling point, don't get in the space. .

Leigh Morgan-1: How do you. Locate that space in between both personally and professionally.

melinda: I think that, um, to start with what you said about, you know, sometimes we can't be in that space personally.

melinda: And, to me, I work with kids, not directly with kids, but I work in an environment in which I have access to information about kids who are very distressed and tremendous, you know, mental health and behavioral health issues.

melinda: And to be quite honest, it's become at a crisis level for schools.

melinda: But , that's where I would start, is that to have a safe space, you have to [00:43:00] first. Center it on mental health.

melinda: And I think that we all are struggling with that, to be honest. Some of us navigate it a little better than others.

melinda: But, , as a school lawyer, I'm seeing a, , significant decline in mental health and behavioral health and students in our, um, in our schools. And, the preservation and the protection of mental health , has to be the priority, , as a starting space to find a safe space.

melinda: It has to be safe, um, even as adults, not just kids, but as adults.

melinda: And so establishing boundaries and sometimes, , distancing ourselves from challenging situations is the starting place because we have to be in that place of mental health in order to extend ourselves to people that are different than us or have different views than us.

melinda: And then if you're able to establish that safe mental health place where you can look outward and try and bridge divides, if you're in that. Place

melinda: again, to me it just comes out, comes down to looking for, know, [00:44:00] connections and commonalities on the macro and the micro level.

melinda: To me, that's everything. , Trying to make those connections is just the fundamental building block of humanity, and I think it's the only way that we're going to overcome any divides and find a safe space in, which to function.

Leigh Morgan-1: I'm struck by , this theme that we keep touch, touching on of connection of safe spaces. And, , you and I had a meta safe family system that we grew up in despite, , some of the coolness of the culture, right. That we've described and that we've clearly transcended.

Leigh Morgan-1: You know, you and I laugh and hug and cry together and vent together.

Leigh Morgan-1: I think we, as a society need to keep. Anchoring in on this, the advice you're giving, right? Of know our boiling points. Know when you need to check out, and [00:45:00] find that safe space, which might be going for a walk, hugging someone in your family, phoning a friend, right?

Leigh Morgan-1: If you have a pet, whatever it is, and it looks different for all of us.

Leigh Morgan-1: And seek out support.

Leigh Morgan-1: And then the other piece, I think what we're doing now, and helped our connection, is that we've told stories about our own experiences and our experiences of our family.

Leigh Morgan-1: That was part of the arc that helps us transform the distance and disconnection into new stories about each other of, oh, Melinda's just this amazing mom, right?

Leigh Morgan-1: . When I came out, you've showed up for me in a way that has been consistent and loving. And then I heard , you really appreciate how I've showed up as an aunt.

Leigh Morgan-1: Telling those stories to each other I think is also a way of connecting with each other at a really deeply human [00:46:00] level.

Leigh Morgan-1: And that's not unique just to us, but in society and at work also.

melinda: I mean telling. Is just a way to find commonalities in my mind and, , , prompt curiosity and, inquiry about, you know, what is this person about? Let me, let me dig a little bit deeper than the headlines. Um,

Leigh Morgan-1: Yeah.

melinda: and , we absolutely have to reset our conversation. We just have to reset the conversation, and we do that by practicing it daily. It's these little daily efforts that we have to make to find connection with our fellow human beings in whatever context that we relate to them, whether it's a work relationship or a sister relationship, or in our marriages, or within our kids or within our community. We have to reset the con conversation.

melinda: And I just believe that that happens by telling stories, which is a way of finding commonalities and exploring connections.

Leigh Morgan-1: That's profound and I'm drinking that in and it [00:47:00] makes me wonder, one last question to ask ,

Leigh Morgan-1: you know, even at this time of much division, a lot of uncertainty, the levels of distrust. In society, every dimension are going up. You talked about the rates of mental health, emotional health crises in school systems is is going up and yet there is so much love and kindness in the world, so much, and for those of us who look for that and give it out, it usually comes back, right?

Leigh Morgan-1: We're usually able to find it. That's not true for everybody.

Leigh Morgan-1: People face all sorts of challenges.

Leigh Morgan-1: I also think there's just way more love and kindness in the world. And so I wonder what bolsters you the most these days? Where are you able to touch into that frequency of, love and kindness?

melinda: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think [00:48:00] for me, I'm a natural born connector. It's just, it's in my blood. , I'm the, the one that's. Spends a lot of time to make romantic matches. For example, if I know two people that are single, and I think they'd get along, know, I'm the one that thinks about that.

melinda: I'm also the one that if I meet a new person who says, Hey, I'm from Los Angeles. I'm like, oh, I have a friend in Los Angeles as though I know each other in this city of 4 million people. I just have this optimism of connection.

melinda: , But it's the way I'm wired and maybe it's just because I'm wired like that, but I find it really easy to make connections if you just try.

melinda: It's just a daily conscious practice, and so I'm bolstered by how easy it is when you just try, when you just say, Hey, how are you doing today? Or, you know, ask questions of somebody to try and make that connection.

melinda: . Easy to find the love and kindness in this world and the connection. So I'm bolstered by, and I have a lot of optimism about how easy it could be to change [00:49:00] this awful division that we find ourselves in, whether it's on a national level or a global level, or within our own families. actually really easy if we can just try.

melinda: I have a lot of optimism about that and that's what bolsters me.

Leigh Morgan-1: I love that, that bolsters me as well. Amazing. We're sisters. It bolsters both of us.

melinda: Yeah.

melinda: If we can overcome our childhood division and now we're close in our fifties, it's, you know, anybody can do it because it was pretty bad there when we were growing up.

Leigh Morgan-1: it was, it was, there were some unpleasant times and you know, every time you put your hand over that imaginary line, Mel, it just drove me nuts in, in the back of the car.

melinda: Oh, you provoke me. That's how I remember it.

Leigh Morgan-1: Okay, well this has been super fun and meaningful. Um, thanks.

melinda: Yeah, it's been great. It's, it's been [00:50:00] great connecting with you in our adulthood on a personal level that we were never able to do we were kids, and it's become one of the most meaningful relationships in my life. And so I thank you for that and I love you.

Leigh Morgan-1: I love you too, sis.

melinda: All

Leigh Morgan-1: you mean the world to me. , That's a good way to close.

Leigh Morgan-1: Wishing uh, you a wonderful day and, um, just what a great holiday, uh, episode this is. It's really meaningful for us. I hope for you who is listening right now. Thank you for spending time with us. It's been great.

Leigh Morgan-1: Take care.

Leigh Morgan-1: Okay, Mel, bye for now.

melinda: Bye.