The Hidden Systems Shaping Democracy & What We Believe - With Deb Roy

In this timely episode of The Space In Between, host Leigh Morgan sits down with Deb Roy, director of the MIT Center for Constructive Communication, to explore how the modern information ecosystem is reshaping democracy, trust, and our relationships with one another. At a time when misinformation, algorithmic amplification, and fragmented media environments are fueling polarization, Deb offers a powerful framework for understanding what he calls our information architecture—the invisible systems that determine what we see, what we believe, and how shared meaning either forms or breaks down.

But this conversation goes deeper than technology or media systems. It is ultimately about our humanness—the ways we see, hear, and relate to one another. Deb’s work reminds us that when information systems distort reality, they also weaken the relational fabric that allows diverse societies to function. As a world-leading researcher, Deb brings rigorous insight into how information systems shape civic life. Drawing on both modern research and what he calls “ancient wisdoms,” he reminds us that renewing democracy may begin with something profoundly simple: re-invigorating relational connection through listening, storytelling, and shared human experience.

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Transcript

Speaker 0:01

Hello and welcome to the. Space in between podcast. I'm your host Lee Morgan. Again, this podcast is for listeners who are fed up. Up with the hyperpolarized nature of the world today. And who crave. Craves spaces where current events can be discussed in construct. enlightening and delightful ways. Let's get.

Leigh Morgan 0:28

Hello Fran. Thanks for joining me today. This is the space in between. Have you ever caught yourself thinking, I don't know what or who to believe anymore, or like me, maybe felt an occasional flash of anger watching someone confidently distort what I know or you know, are otherwise obvious facts? Well, those reactions aren't just personal. They say something important about the unsettled times we are living in. also point to an important, and I think, deeper question, what does democracy actually require to function? Well, just politically, but in a world where we are constantly surrounded by information we aren't sure we can trust. A lot of this comes down to what my guest calls our information architecture, the structures that shape what gets amplified, what gets ignored, and how meaning gets made or unraveled. It turns out when that architecture breaks down, so does our ability to find common ground. So I'm excited and honestly quite relieved that my guest today, Deb Roy, will help us unpack all of this. leads the MIT Center for Constructive Communication, which focuses on strengthening democracy by improving how information is created, shared and understood, especially around polarizing civic issues. So what a timely conversation, right? Today, he'll offer some clarity and some practical advice on how we can turn the tide on what he calls the decay of truth in society. last thing I'll add before introducing Deb, is that today's conversation is not about tech fixes or even asserting specific narratives that align with a particular ideology. It's really about what it takes to create shared meaning and how each of us can strengthen democracy. By doing so. glad you're here. Welcome to the Space in Between podcast.

Deb K Roy 2:42

Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.

Leigh Morgan 2:44

Well, I'm thrilled, uh, because there's so much swirling around these days, right? Things on video that we see a lot of unrest around the country and really around the world. And you and I have spoken a little bit and, and I got to know your work, you've been. Researching and advocating ways for society to understand the role of information better. And so it strengthens democracy. And you've been doing this for a while, and I'm wondering where does this passion come from? What really animates your work?

Deb K Roy 3:19

Yeah. Thanks for, asking that question. when I, if I, if I really kind of look back, I'll say two things come to mind. One is, I grew up, I was born and raised in Winnipeg, but I spent big chunks of my childhood and right until I was in high school in Calcutta and just. spending four months at a time every four years living in urban Calcutta and then getting on a airplane and being airdropped, you know, so to speak, in suburban Winnipeg. just living across these two worlds back and forth and hearing, my relatives in Calcutta with their stereotypes of so-called white people that think this and do that. And then in Winnipeg, hearing stereotypes about. what they would see in, let's say, a video in school of, you know, people in a village in India. And just, these stereotypes in each direction and how easily that distance can, distort and sometimes dehumanize others. And the challenges of bridging linguistic and cultural divides, I kind of. Like soak that in and also the payoffs when you can actually translate across. so I think that's one of the things that, you know, when I just think about why am I so drawn to these challenges and the others, I just love building things. As a kid I was like building robots, building machines that talk when I was, you know, in my bedroom Winnipeg as a kid. And a lot of what I do in my mind is a straight shot from all of that. So, you know, just kind of the wonder and awe of making something and, you know, in this age of ai, which is, you know, an area I've been working on for decades, seeing what's possible, that wonder and awe and sort of curiosity, that's probably the other passion that, continue to draw from.

Leigh Morgan 5:07

It's amazing to me how many of my guests have some version of that story of an upbringing of having feet in, in different cultures and, being not just curious about it, but really understanding that how easy it can be to have misunderstandings. But the other side of that, which is how beautiful it is when you. Can build and come together across cultures. Right. And then that now combined with your own curiosity, and I'm glad you mentioned about your work in ai, um, because I, I want to make sure we touch on that in this conversation because AI certainly is amplifying our digital space, right? And digital spaces have such an impact on and the meaning they make, and, and you're an expert on that. So, thanks for that. And, you know, I also, will acknowledge, I watched your great TED talk from, oh, I think it was, was it 2018?

Deb K Roy 6:06

11

Leigh Morgan 6:08

Actually'cause That's right.'cause Obama was, was in, and I think you mentioned something about that, but, it was such a beautiful talk because fundamentally you spoke about being a dad. And so I'll put a link to that in the show notes. And this kind of the personal aspect of raising this beautiful little boy who's not a little boy anymore. you and your partner used his birth to learn more about how he made meaning with words. I think it was very powerful. Now here we are talking about democracy and creating shared meaning. So glad you're here and thank you for touching my heart through that, that talk. What I'd like to do is start with, a question to define some terms. I mentioned the word information architecture that was new to me before, you and I connected. Can you help, me and those listening today understand what you mean by information architecture and how that influences the wellbeing of democracy in society.

Deb K Roy 7:13

Sure, yeah. You know, you, we could say information architecture, just the way that, images and text and voice and sort of, you know, what all ends up being from a, technology perspective now in, in the digital world we're in, how bits move around, the world and between humans, or the human side of that is just. Our mediated experience. If you think about the world you and I know and navigate through every day, how much of what we think about and, and understand in the world do we have direct access to, and, and the answer is very little. so much of what we understand and believe about the world around us, about people, uh, about other people, about places, events, what they mean, all of that is mediated, right? And, and in that we're not directly experiencing it. We're not directly seeing it. We can't verify it for ourselves. We're depending on things that we see and hear, through media. So the information architecture is what is, channeling all that mediated content, all those bits of information, and determining. What reaches us and what doesn't. so it's, it's a pretty, general concept. and when the information in that architecture is content, you know, things that we can, consume and, and understand, that creates that sort of the, the media environment and, and the reason it's, I think, important to think about what is your media diet? What is it that you are taking in to build your understanding, your opinions, your beliefs about the world is that it's so invisible to us day to day, it's kind of like the old story of the two, young fish swimming, the old fish swims by them and says, how's the water? one young fish turns to the other and says, what's water? we're immersed in it. And so this idea that maybe the world is not exactly as it seems, and maybe the the lens I have to see and understand what's around me is somehow systematically distorted. really hard to know if that's true, because you somehow have to step out of your, your shoes and say, well wait, what's actually there? And so, but the fact that in the first place, everything that I'm looking at is through some kind of a lens that, could be different and in fact is changing. is, is some of what, yeah. I guess I think about when I think about phrase information architecture.

Leigh Morgan 9:49

Can you say more about the invisible nature of that? Because when you said that, I

Deb K Roy 9:55

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan 9:56

thought, well, I have some social media accounts. People might, know, intentionally go to a certain news platform online. So there's a around what we do with our time and where we seek out information. So that's not invisible. And yet, I love your story of the, the two fish say a little bit more about the invisible nature of that and then how it functions. In creating shared meaning or in unraveling a shared meaning in, in our society.

Deb K Roy 10:30

Sure. Well with the, the emergence and then the spread of social media, you know, which really started with, uh, Facebook and Twitter. And, and YouTube, Instagram acts, TikTok, et cetera. one of the things, you know, the reason that this was a, a kind of a, a radical shift in our media networks was that these were social media and user generated content, and you had direct access to millions and, and various, quickly billions of other people. and you could directly see and read and hear what they had to say and what they were doing. And so this is all true, right? All of us got onto these networks. and so when I say the kind of distortion and the invisible nature, it's like, okay, there's this, you know, group of people. let's just say these others, they're different than me, and now I have access to them. Now I can hear. What they have to say. Now, I can form opinions through direct. I don't have to rely on secondhand information. that's the belief we all have. And it's a reasonable one because there really are other people there. Although more and more now there's bots and AI slop. So it's getting harder to know if that's a real person. But I'm talking about early days of, uh, of social media. And this is still true. There's still real human beings. so if I want to, you know, see and hear for myself and decide what that other person or that other group is like, well I can just get on social media and browse and search and, and get a sense. The problem is that there are. Algorithms deciding of the billions of people that might be posting, or, you know, millions of people that are posting content, which of those will reach me? And the algorithms don't care about representativeness, they don't care about nuance, they don't care about, quality of information or truthfulness. as probably everyone at this point is aware, you know, these networks are, trying to turn a profit makes sense. Their business, uh, turns out to be profitable you need to grab, uh, people's attention. And so all those characteristics I just suggested are not the ones that are most profitable. but you're still seeing and hearing real people. It's just they're not elected or somehow selected to be representative of a larger group. So, I end up with this systematically distorted sample of, that other group. It even goes down to an individual who, if I speak to in a live small group or a one-on-one conversation, that person will say certain things. If I go and then look at what they're saying when they post on social media, it's systematically distorted. So even individuals project a different facet of themselves than they would in say, a face-to-face private conversation. But if that's my only access to that person or people like that, then I will become convinced. That's what she's like, that's what they're like. And this is happening at scale. It's been happening now for a, a human generation because these, uh, networks have been around for, you know, over a couple of decades now. So it's that sense that I have direct access and the. Systematic distortion of the intervening algorithms that decide would get to me. And also just our individual behavior that we shift in, how we show up in these places, which are performative in general. You know, uh, um, there was a, a brief period of naivety where we thought, well, I'm just gonna be myself. And in various ways that did harm to some, and some who started cranking up the provocative facets of their personality, got more attention and, and good goodness. And so that this idea, that's a performative space that you're stepping into, most people who are active understand that. And so all of that leads to. I mean by this kind of, uh, distortion and it's invisible in that it's very easy to forget it's happening. Right. You just, you know, and here we are talking about it. So maybe for a moment we're aware and then we just slip back into it. So, because it's so, immersive, it's everywhere.

Leigh Morgan 15:04

yeah. And

Deb K Roy 15:05

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan 15:06

really helpful. And just to key in on the word of distortion. Distortion. And then that gets amplified as information is flowing so much faster, it's literally harder to make time to check. It's harder to see the water we're swimming in. I think that metaphor is so apt. What is your sense of how this impacts the strength of democracy? And I'll say democracy here in the United States, right? Because I know for me and most people who tune into the space in between, care a lot about their communities, their families, their organizations, and have a sense that parts of the fabric The United States, maybe even globally, are, are getting frayed, are shifting in ways that are unsettling, literally scary, violent for some people. And so there's a lot of, upset and we are seeing an uptick in polarization. Uh, rates of distrust are actually just going up so fast. So this has an impact on democracies. What, what is your take on that?

Deb K Roy 16:17

I think that, for us to live peacefully with others who indeed are different from us and to tolerate or ideally embrace that diversity, it's important to believe that we have more in common and therefore we can, embrace that diversity because there's, you know, this common denominator that binds us, right? And no matter how different you and I are, we can break bread together. Our kids can go to the same school together. We have a lot of therefore shared concerns and that I think. Is grounded in, uh, something that I, I often talk about as, to me, a sort of a fundamental requirement for all of this to work for kind of democratic systems, you know, where we embrace diversity and yet live together and achieve continuously some rough consensus right, to, uh, make compromises and, and move forward. is that seeing and hearing the humanity in one another is an essential ingredient that, and there's this kind of, Trust in others and, uh, relational infrastructure of kind of my relationship to others and their relationships to others, that extends out. And, some level of constant reminder of, oh yeah, we have more in common. So those are, those are differences. And let's now, let's argue about it. Let's debate about it. let's get angry about it, but then let's settle and move forward because there is this underlying, understanding that we have more in common. That's why we're, we're here under one umbrella of some, democracy. so now if you layer in that systematic, invisible distortion field that the things that we have in common turn out to be kind of boring. Like I already knew that. And if I'm trying,

Leigh Morgan 18:13

by boring? Say more about boring because

Deb K Roy 18:15

well,

Leigh Morgan 18:16

yeah,

Deb K Roy 18:17

yeah.

Leigh Morgan 18:17

feeling. And I think you're onto something here of,

Deb K Roy 18:21

yeah, if you want to really win in the attention economy, and the best way to win is emotionally provocative, attention seeking, resting content over and over and over. Doesn't that sound like the opposite of boring? And so if it's like, you know, how are you feeling this morning? What did you experience, tell me about your day. Oh yeah, that sounds familiar. Me too. That's kind of boring, right? and so I think that, but the, and know where does trust get built, you know, it's in, uh, often in those, those quiet spaces and those exchanges and slowing things down. I mean, there's a lot of elements. That come together for, um, building relationships, building cross. Now it's, it can happen in exciting and under stressful, conditions as well. But that's, there's, you know, there's, there's a lot, lot of, uh, importance in, in those quieter spaces. And yeah, it's just, if, if your only access to others, um, or your only way that you, you form your view of others is governed by the attention economy. Right. Uh, then, you know, if you think about when Twitter and Facebook were first created, they were a kinds of what, you know, if like a, a dog is a kind of animal. Twitter and Facebook were a kind of, do you remember what we originally called them?

Leigh Morgan 19:48

I forget

Deb K Roy 19:49

Social networks,

Leigh Morgan 19:51

social networks. In fact, we have the movie about Zuck, uh, called social

Deb K Roy 19:55

we, we do, but what do we, what do we call them today?

Leigh Morgan 19:58

Uh, nightmares, dangerous,

Deb K Roy 20:02

you a more neutral answer. We call them soc,

Leigh Morgan 20:05

Call me

Deb K Roy 20:06

media. Social media. So it's, it's a, it's subtle, right? It's subtle. But what happened, we went from social networks. These were like people, us connected to one another and creating networks to social media, which was, oh, there's this thing called user generated content and people are creating content and feed, and that creates my feed. And that creates a media experience, which was necessary to figure out the business model. Now you can put advertising just like you would television or, any other media feed and, alright, these companies needed to figure out a revenue model. But that conversion from a social network to social media, the reason I, I, I'm bringing this up is when you think about, well, what is the fundamental trade-off or cost of having this non-boring constantly provocative content? it's in the name change. It is deteriorating our relationships, which is to me this kind of, irony, right? That originally the whole point of these, these products, these platforms were to connect people. They were to actually extend relationship. If you go back and listen to the early language of, of Facebook, it was all about the social network. That's why the movie is called the Social Network, right? but the cost of figuring out how to optimize for revenue was relational. And so this, kind of relational trust infrastructure, the civic infrastructure that, still remains, you know, when we are amongst our private networks of friends and family. but the scaled version, I think has actually gone in the So that has weakened,

Leigh Morgan 21:43

think it probably weakened the, the societal sense of shared meaning. Is that accurate?

Deb K Roy 21:49

Yeah, that's right. And, and

Leigh Morgan 21:51

not always. I mean, I think there's still shared meaning and shared hopes.

Deb K Roy 21:55

Oh, not always. I, I mean, look, I, I'm hopeful, right? And, but, um, no, but I, I actually love what you just said, which is that ability to have shared meaning our ability to make sense of one another and, and collectively what's going on here, is weakened when the relational structure is weakened, right. Our, our ability to do that. And then you end up with kind of markets, you know, for attention and, uh, bits of information, bits of content that can grab that attention. And that's the, uh, that's not the marketplace of ideas that we're, we're looking for, right?

Leigh Morgan 22:33

Uh, I,

Deb K Roy 22:34

Yeah.

Leigh Morgan 22:35

is so helpful how you're, how you are laying this out. And I'll share two anecdotes that I think are related. One, I did a podcast. on the illusion of polarization. Uh, because I heard, uh, Todd Rose, who is a researcher who wrote a book about this, and he said, like, you did that in our private spaces. we know this from research, we tend to share ourselves our authentic stories. when that happens, we know that there's so much that. We have in common, even with people who might be on a different

Deb K Roy 23:12

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan 23:13

of the

Deb K Roy 23:13

Yep.

Leigh Morgan 23:14

spectrum. And then when we get into public spaces, which include social media posts, it also can include in-person meetings or virtual meetings, tend to censor and the loudest voices tend to dominate. Right. Or the voices which are most emotionally evocative. so you just, you know, kinda describe that movement. And I love you, your observation of the social networks to social media because media is a, an industry

Deb K Roy 23:45

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan 23:46

industries too. Thrive and to perpetuate themselves, have to make money. Which leads me to my second anecdote, which is a dear, colleague of mine, um, that I think very highly of, uh, was former lead director at Facebook. she left that role in 20, I think 15. Dr. Sue Desmond Helman, of immense integrity. But she said to me once, people don't understand that Facebook is a ad agency.

Deb K Roy 24:17

Mm-hmm.

Leigh Morgan 24:17

a social network. And, you know, she would know because she was on the board and she never, she's very appropriate around not saying anything as a member of the board relative to the business model. But it was so obvious. So saying that. it's an ad agency and to sell ads, you really want to keep people on your platform, addict them however you can. And this attention economy of like evocative algorithms, you know, you react, oh my God, I can't believe what's happening here. Then you're gonna get more of that.

Deb K Roy 24:50

you know, if you look at the whole history of, corporate media, you know, whether it was the, the local newspaper or the radio station, the television networks, um, each of these, if they had an ad, you know, revenue model, you could say from one dimension. They're just an ad seller. They're just selling, you know, access to eyeballs or uh, or ears if you're a radio. but from another facet you'd say, oh, they're actually, you know, a, a, a news or entertainment provider creating, you know, uh, a product for that people want. And which one's the right answer to? What, what is it? What are they? Well, they're both, and the key is there's some balance

Leigh Morgan 25:33

Hmm.

Deb K Roy 25:34

those. And one of the things that I just see over and over, and I think this is really again, a consequence of the technology, of, of digital networks and, and taking all the friction out and allowing these networks to scale, is that, there were just natural sources of friction that kept the balance between, you know, the, the quality of content and the responsibilities of the people creating that content. And the need for revenue and having enough content in that local newspaper that you had enough of a readership that you could sell advertising, but also keeping some of the high quality journalistic content because,

Leigh Morgan 26:18

Yeah.

Deb K Roy 26:19

you had a mission and values guiding your work. And when I look at these companies, I, I know the early days of Twitter better. there were good people there. They, they had a, set of values guiding their work. and yet, I feel like they lost that balance. And part of that is how much have we just relied on natural source of friction, that the digital friction-free scaled world we're now in, We don't have these natural, uh, guardrails and we can, we can lose balance and just get this, you know, extraordinarily optimized machine superhuman and speed and capability AI infused to figure out each one of the billion people on my platform, which piece of content is most likely to keep them attentive next. Right. I mean, none of that existed right. 20, 30 years ago. So there's also, um, I, I'm, I'm just kind of responding to this idea that, you know, Facebook and the other company is essentially just an ad seller. It's like there's always been that aspect in that business model, but the way that we have, or I, I feel, have lost the ability to navigate that, tension between those different functions is deeply problematic. Yeah.

Leigh Morgan 27:37

is. And thank you for that comment. It's really helped me. I think that's really insightful. This notion of frictionless world that we find ourselves amplified by digital technologies. Compared to a time when there was some friction, which we liked. And that's actually one of the cornerstones of this podcast is why I named it The space in between.'cause it's the space in between is not a milk toast middle where everyone agrees. It's a place where we can have kind of constructive dialogue, right? Be curious with one another, have some, thoughtfulness and disagree, but do so in a way out of a place of well, where is there also common ground? Well, affirming and respecting people might have different values. And strikes me that your analogy of frictionless creates too many spaces where there's not actual thoughtful debate. So tell me. Your view on, on this quandary? We're, we're talking about the flow of information and, and you've given some great examples. There are times for me, and I think this is true for, folks who tune into the space in between where we think about, oh, what's happening in democracy? Things are shifting so much, and we think it's easy to go to a place of, well, it's malicious actors, people who aren't nice, who are trying to undermine things, you know, individuals then we might say, that party or these people in power, or those people on the streets. You, you're providing examples of something a little different, which is about how information is shared, disseminated, and curated. what I'm curious about is your view on our propensity. I know this happens for me think about the fraying and fracturing of our society and democratic norms

Deb K Roy 29:47

Yeah,

Leigh Morgan 29:47

caused by. Individuals who

Deb K Roy 29:51

right, right. Yeah. the reality is of course, uh, there are bad actors. there are people work, you know, operating in bad faith. And if those are the people that are more likely to constantly be the ones that I see in here, and in a sense they represent some larger, you know, in a America is polarized, we have enclaves that have. That are pulling apart more and more from one another. And if I am in one group and I am just hearing from people from the other group that turn out sometimes are bad actors, right? Well, that's going to, strengthen my stereotype about that group. But I think separate from that, that's important, but also this idea of consistently seeing things from only one perspective. So, you know, when I, think of a politician, hear about that politician, I am likely thinking about certain facets, certain things that they have said that they represent. Then imagine someone who say, I, I don't like that politician. And, and you do, you are probably thinking about very different aspects of that person. you might be thinking about their, policy about immigration and in particular how it has led to some what you believe are good things that have been, uh, addressed. I'm looking at that exact same person, but I'm focusing on comments they've made or things they've done that I believe are, uh, racist. you and I both hear that politician's name, you're thinking one thing, I'm thinking another, and then I, I, I realize you support that politician and I think. That means you support racism, but you're not even thinking about that. Right? So this again, is something that I feel because it's, this is less about, not, not just about lack of friction, but we are in such a fragmented media environment, right? I mean, the largest, most influential source of media now are podcasts. Here you are producing one, right? And, um, there are so many podcasters with millions of subscribers that you and I have never heard of. And I can say that, uh, with confidence for not just the two of us, but basically anyone, um, millions means that person has real influence and yet they will be unknown

Leigh Morgan 32:40

Yep.

Deb K Roy 32:41

a large swath of Americans, right? Because we just have this fra fragmented.

Leigh Morgan 32:46

yeah.

Deb K Roy 32:46

Um, and so, uh, your, if your media diet and my media diet are very different, if the, uh, the narratives about, uh, that that politician or narratives about what's right or wrong about AI or immigration or pick your topic, are totally different in, in your media diet versus mine. When you and I meet and we say, let's talk about ai, what do you think? And you say, I think it should be stopped at all exp expense. And I'm like, I, I love it. Um, now maybe I think you see exactly what I see in ai and you, you think it's a good thing. You know, you're worried that AI is going to, I don't know, uh, destroy humanity or just keep us as pets and, uh, and. If I had the same belief or I had the same, and then I said, I think AI is good. You, you get what I'm saying? So this idea of perspectives, you know, and, and it's so, it is so simple. Like if you just think of a, a cylinder, I'm holding up from one side and I see a circle and you're looking at it from the side, you see a rectangle, right? Um, and then we can argue about that thing, um, about whether it's gonna roll or not. And I see the circle and I say, of course it is. And you say, no, it's not. I see it, you know?'cause you're seeing a rectangle. If we can't resolve that, we're actually seeing different sides, different facets of the same thing.

Leigh Morgan 34:08

Yeah, you

Deb K Roy 34:08

Um,

Leigh Morgan 34:09

You can't even

Deb K Roy 34:10

you can't even start. And so again, this, this, uh, uh, so I, you know, I think there's a lot of causes for why

Leigh Morgan 34:17

yeah. Okay.

Deb K Roy 34:18

having the challenges we are. when I look,

Leigh Morgan 34:21

multi, and you study this. So

Deb K Roy 34:23

yeah.

Leigh Morgan 34:23

so this notion of, uh, low friction at scale, fragmented media market, this attention economy. And once, you know, it's that ladder of inference that I learned when I was in graduate school of you start with information, you make meaning of it, and then you take action on it. And then it becomes kind of a her hermetically sealed, circle, right? And if I don't question the basic assumptions or basic meaning that I make of like, ah, I, that seems that way to me. I get some other information or would anyone challenge me? Then we're just gonna com completely on steroids, have our own views magnified. And so I think we're, that's why we feel this polarization. wanna get your views on this notion of agency because so much, uh, about what we do here and in your work to help individuals, help organizations really help society identify where we have influence and choice around these issues, around the notion of information that we have, of finding ways to make human connections so that we can question and be curious in ways that contradict, this media diets that can be very polarizing or, in silos. What would be practical advice you'd offer that. For anyone, regardless of role of like, Hey, here's a few things you can do right now to help contradict place that we're in regarding social media and information flow.

Deb K Roy 36:12

Yeah, I think there's, a lot of things we can all do. I think starting with, reflecting on your own diet, reflecting on your own habits for how you are. On what you're basing your, your beliefs and your opinions, realizing you have choices. You don't have to use, that social media app. You don't have to consume those media sources. Or even if you do, you can also diversify your diet. And then more important than just diet, also, there are so many, we call them, you know, in our work, ancient wisdoms to draw from, from if you actually want to understand someone who's coming, from a different point of view. and it starts with, you know, I really like that you, you raise this, concept of a collective illusion. what if it's a collective illusion that I'm falling for and, that person is not so different from me. And actually we have more in common. How do I even get that conversation started? That there are these. ancient wisdoms for how to create spaces to listen to one another. I'll give you a simple example. find a quiet, quiet space in a familiar place where in a small group setting you can ask someone rather than share your opinion about something that's contentious. Share an experience you've had that relates to that contentious issue. Just shifting from an opinion to an experience, shifts everything. and if you would like to build empathy or trust or respect across divides, there's now a lot of recent empirical. Studies and evidence that shows that the ancient wisdom was right, which is that shifting away from opinions, which tends to, you know, as soon as someone contradicts your opinion, it's kind of like you're ready for battle and opinions become weapons. it's very easy to forget that the opinions we hold about many things are not our opinions. We pick them up from somewhere. Whereas your experiences, those are yours. we've studied this. When you ask people to share a personal story or an experience, you can't help but, embed your opinions about what happened. It's just how we tell stories. So you still convey. What you think about, say it's an issue, it's my experience as it relates to immigration, my experience as it relates to ai, but it's my experience. And so that's an example of something that you, you can do. And um, yeah. And then a lot of our work today, which over the last 10 years has been on building an alternative to social media that taps into ancient wisdoms and brings them together with technology to scaffold and, and amplify. That's one of the ancient wisdoms that we've been drawing upon. And, um, it really works.

Leigh Morgan 39:08

I love that you've named that ancient wisdom and the. Creation of spaces to tell our stories as a fundamental anecdote to the ways that our information architecture, media, can make it hard to be a fully human and to to honor our own convictions, but also people who come from a different perspective. And storytelling seems to be that bridge, as you mentioned.

Deb K Roy 39:41

That's right. It is, it's, it is a way to build trust, is to be willing to listen to someone else's story and actually to be heard. there is a lot of hand wring around, quality of information of, you know. Misinformation. And you know, are these really factual? Are these facts? I think of course that's important, but it's not the whole story. Um, there's this really important question of who do you trust? where are your networks of trust? you know, the world is full of facts. Which facts am I going to tune into? And if they're not the ones that you're tuned into, then we have no shared facts. but what I pay attention to in the first place is, influenced by who I trust. If I don't trust the source, I don't care what information they're putting out, I'll tune it out. And so how do you build trust? creating spaces to listen to the stories of one another, uh, is, is definitely one of those ancient wisdoms that works.

Leigh Morgan 40:43

I'm struck by the, contradiction that advice is, and I say beautiful because, facts are, in our head. And you, you mentioned the hand ringing that we have about There's a million different, mental models about what happened. at a core, I think if we get below lot of the, the noise around is that fact what, who did what, who. are people who care about having vibrant, safe communities, and that's where we can find a lot of shared meaning. And it doesn't require vilifying entire people's, it doesn't require stereotyping. Well, if you voted for this person, then you must be a horrible, mean person, right? it's the storytelling round why we care so much Staking out an opinion if we can unlayer in those quiet spaces, telling our stories. a, a woman, I did a podcast, the very first podcast, Deb actually, um, with Maime Fox, who's a writer for Forbes, and she's done, she's a a few bestsellers she's a storyteller and she just reminded us. There's also research that shows when we tell our stories, we actually create and strengthen neural networks in our brain. plasticity increases, don't know about you, but I need as much plasticity as possible. I'm getting older, so, uh, lots of benefits. so thank you for, uh, that framing. And I have one last question for you. I ask all guests, if you had a magic wand, it was Deb's magic wand, right? Thinking about care about, passion, the work you've done in the world, what would be one wish that you want for listeners?

Deb K Roy 42:40

Well, it's, you know, maybe just building on what we just talked about, which is I, I hope that, uh, if you're listening to this, that you will learn and practice, listening, creating those spaces for those around you and even those that you don't, uh, know well to be able to create that space. And, uh, once you get the hang of it, the practice, it's a super skill.

Leigh Morgan 43:05

That's a beautiful wish with your, with your magic wand. Deb, you didn't know you had one, but now you do. uh, thank you for the work that you do in the world and for sharing with us today. Really helpful framework for dynamics many of us are experiencing around polarization. hard to make sense of things you've shared with us why that's happening. And then here at the end have just brought us. to the personal embodiment about our stories and about listening and how this leads to a capacity for empathy, for human connection. those really are the foundations where empathy and connection thrives. So to do democracies, I share your optimism that we can do this, I think it actually is being done, Deb. Right? I think this is happening a lot. It is just not, not prone to selfie culture. I think more of us are finding each other. So I am actually even amidst the noise and, chaos that we're finding. I am so hopeful your work and being a part of this podcast today makes me even more hopeful. So thank you very much.

Deb K Roy 44:24

Thanks for this great conversation. Really appreciate what you're doing.

Speaker 2 44:30

I hope you. Enjoyed this episode of the space in between podcast. If. If you did, please hit the like button and leave a review. Wherever you listen to the show. And check out the space. Space in between.com website, where you can also leave me a message.