The Fifth Season

Father Earth is angry...

The Fifth Season by N. K. Jemisin brings us into a world where people can control the earth and everyone lives in fear of frequent yet unknowable extinction level events. Essun is a normal woman living a normal life which is torn apart on the same day the earth is ripped in two.

Jen and Ellie discuss the world building, concept of self and how peoples fears and beliefs are constructed by the society.

This is the way the world ends, for the last time. 

Transcript

Jen: [00:00:00] Hi and welcome to If We Survive This, a podcast where we read fantasy books and discuss how likely we'd be to survive the challenges in them. A quick warning that this podcast is filled with spoilers for all aspects of the book. I'm Jen, the slightly more bookish side of the podcast, though I do have some fitness credentials.

Ellie: And I'm Ellie. I could survive in the wild for weeks, as long as I have a good audiobook. 

Jen: Today we're discussing The Fifth Season by N. K. Jemisin. Let's see if we survive this. Father Earth is angry. The world suffers from constant Earthshakes and the people live in fear of the unknowable Fifth Seasons, near extinction level events that can start at any time.

A massive shake happens in Eumenes, the capital, tearing the Earth open and starting a Fifth Season that could last for thousands of years. We follow one woman who has assumed different identities throughout her life, Essun, Damaya and Syenite. As soon as an Oregene, [00:01:00] as soon as an Oregene feared and hated for her ability to manipulate the earth, she's living in secret with her two genic children and still husband.

On the day of the shake in Yumenes, she returns home to find her son beaten to death, killed by her husband who has disappeared with their daughter as soon she leaves. In search from Nassun and is soon joined by hoa, a strange young boy who insists he can track her daughter. They meet Tonki, a seemingly calmless geomest, and soon find themselves in Castrima, a strange underground calm ruined by Oregenes.

Damaya is a child. Her family have realised she is a Rogga and locked her in the barn. Her guardian Shafa arrives and brings her to the Fulcrum, the place where Oregenes are trained and live under the guardian's control. Damaya excels in training until one day Binoff, a young still girl from the city, breaks in and convinces Damaya to help her look for her Fulcrum secret.

They find a strange socket in the ground before being caught by a guardian who quickly seems to lose her grasp on reality. Shafa arrives and kills the other [00:02:00] guardian before plunging Demaya into her first ring test. This test is an assessment of control, to see if she's worth keeping alive after the secret has been revealed.

Syenite is a four ring Oregene. She's been sent on a mission outside the fulcrum with Alabaster, a ten ringer, and the strongest living Oregene. Syenite and Alabaster are under instructions to produce a child for the fulcrum, and they are not happy about it. On the mission, Syenite breaks an unknown object from the base of the harbor in Alea.

It turns out to be a broken obelisk with a stone eater encased in it. There are obelisks around the world, always seemingly floating in the distance, and stone eaters are more myth than reality to most. Soon after, a guardian appears and tries to kill Syenite and Alabaster. They narrowly escape thanks to the intervention of another stone eater.

This is one that Alabaster knows. In the battle, Syenite reaches for the obelisk and unintentionally opens the earth under Alia, destroying the city. They find themselves stranded on an island that has survived [00:03:00] by embracing piracy and Feral Rogga as their leaders. Alabaster and Syenite begin a relationship with Inan, the second in command, and Syenite quickly realizes she is pregnant with Alabaster's child.

Two years pass and their son Corundum proves himself to be an exceptionally powerful Rogga. Syenite joins a pirating trip and finds that Alia is still an active volcano. She can't stand to see the lasting reminder of her actions and uses her skills to stop the constant eruption. Soon after she realizes this was a trap and ships containing guardians manage to find their island.

A battle ensues and it looks like they might win until Alabaster's stone eater drags him into the earth and he disappears. Without him, the Fulcrum quickly overrun the pirates and Syenite watches as Inan is killed. Shafa tries to take Corundum and consign him to a fate worse than death, but Syenite smothers her child to save him.

She then plunges into a power of a nearby obelisk, losing control and causing massive destruction. She washes up on a shore a short while later and [00:04:00] begins her life as Essun. All these years later at Castrima, Essun finds out that Tonki is actually Binoff, the girl she met in the Fulcrum when she was still Damaya, and Hoa is revealed to be a stone eater.

There is a final reunion waiting for us soon in Castrima. Alabaster is in the infirmary, burned, broken, and dying, with his stone eater, Antimony, beside him. He reveals he is the one that caused the Eumenes rifting, and he wants us soon to make it worse. We don't find out many details, but it has to do with something called the moon.

Ah, okay. So this is, um, this is our first time that we've had to rerecord an episode because our audio quality was so bad on the last one. And by our audio quality, I mean my audio quality. So it's been quite a while since we finished this book, but that's, you know. Bring it up into our memories, and Ellie, [00:05:00] what did you think of the fifth season?

Ellie: Well, for all the episodes to have to re record I am in some ways grateful it was this one because I loved this book and it's easy to remember all the things you love about a book, I feel like, so having to hash it out again is no problem for me. I will happily talk about the fifth season and N. K.

Jemisin until the end of, end of time. So yes, I, I really, really enjoy. Enjoyed. Enjoy. I guess. I will. This book will live in my heart forever. So I really enjoy the fifth season. How about you, Jen? 

Jen: Uh, yeah, I'm, I'm the same. I love the fifth season. It is one of my favorite books, just like standalone favorite books.

It's something that whenever I see a list of, uh, you know, like top books of the last like 20 years, the 21st century, best ever written fantasy books, sci fi books, [00:06:00] whatever. I automatically check to see if the fifth season is in it, and if the fifth season is not on the list, then I'm like, it's, I'm not even going to look at the other books.

Like, you obviously didn't take into account genre stuff, like the best genre stuff. So no, I'm not interested. 

Ellie: Yeah, it is. It is so well written. So yeah, as I guess the, um, the intro alluded to, um, or explained, it comes to us in the, from their perspective. Of one woman, but at three different points in her life under three different identities and the way each identity is written and switches narration style, I, like, is one of the few times where I've found the, the tactical use of, I guess, language and narration style to work impeccably at like separating out these people.

Jen: Yeah, you can always tell which [00:07:00] character's perspective you're in because they all, they all think completely differently and they all act completely differently, but you can see that they're like a gross when you realize that they are the same person. You're like, Oh, I can see this as a person who's reinvented herself.

And then. Um, you get with, um, Essun, Essun's perspective is all in the second person and it's really rare to have a book that's written in second person that is, is good. Um, it's generally like, it, there's always a personal, um, Personal preference with different styles, but it's generally considered that second person is one of the least liked styles, um, for narration, but it works so well in the fifth season.

So well. It's ridiculous how well it works. And you really get this sense that, like, there's so much of Essun, she's like. Talking to herself, it seems, and she's like reminding herself what she did and didn't do, who she is, who she has to [00:08:00] remain, and especially like as the book goes on after the reveal that they're all the same character, Essun sometimes has phrases that pops into her head and she's like, That is not you, that is Syenite, you are not Syenite, you have to remain Essun.

And she's stuck on, she has to, like for somebody who has reinvented herself so much, she knows or thinks she has to remain Essun because her daughter expects her mother to come find her. Yeah. And if she changes her personality, she changes who she thinks she is, then she's no longer her daughter's mother.

So. Yeah, she's stuck, which in her trauma, essentially, 

Ellie: yeah, which is so interesting because it clearly comes across that like That she wants to kind of evolve and move out of the, the character, I guess, that she has found herself being for the last 10 years. Um, but yeah, the, the, the tie to her daughter is what keeps her trying [00:09:00] to, to almost like contain herself within the character that she has built of Essun.

That is, that comes across really as a much smaller person than she is internally. Mm. 

Jen: Yeah, Essuna's definitely like the identity she took to hide. Yes. And it's like, Oh, I could be like this normal person who wants normal things. And it's like the complete trying her best to be the, the averagist at everything.

And when you see like what she was like when she was, uh, Damaya and then what she was like when she was Syenite and. The drive. Yeah. The drive, the passion, the like. She just knew she was bigger than the world she was in. Yeah. She always was like pushing at the boundary. She was always like just wanting more without even, [00:10:00] like it takes her a long time to, to realize how to articulate that she wanted more and she wanted her life to be more than it was and figured out like the injustices and all this kind of stuff.

But like, even when she didn't understand everything, she knew that what she was at and what people were trying to make her be wasn't enough. And then she goes to be Essun and she's like, Oh, I'm, I'm just, uh, Jija's wife. Like, I, I help kids, I teach, I meander around and 

Ellie: that's, that's me. 

Jen: And 

Ellie: it's so interesting, like, because it's only kind of as the book culminates and you learn about the trauma that she's had through different stages of her life that you can see.

How she was willing to become that version of a person at that point in time, because like there was a point when Syenite kind of had the same thing on the island with Inan and Alabaster and having Corundum. Like she had her family, she can help out in kind of the [00:11:00] wifely goings on of this strange island calm.

But she's forever restless, like, she, she's like, this is like, just sitting around being a mother is not, like, it's not what it's meant for me, it's not what, it's not what I want in life. But I think through the trauma of, of that whole place, just being destroyed and losing everyone she loved in it. She realized that like, well, who knows what she, I'm not gonna say she realized because that's a, that part isn't narrated and, and that's a assuming something for such a complex character.

I feel like I can't assume anything. Um, but yeah, she found such a, yeah, a simpler life to try and exist in then afterwards that wasn't full of the same pain maybe. 

Jen: Well, I kind of feel with that and I am going to make assumptions. Nice. With Syenite when she was on the island, [00:12:00] if she had stayed there in her motherly role, the bad things wouldn't have happened because she got pulled into the trap that was laid for her by being like the headstrong herself.

So she was like, well, if I like the only way. Like, the me, it was me that made things wrong by being the more me, so if I be not me, then things will be okay. 

Ellie: Yeah. That is incredibly true and a much better way of saying what my brain was trying to think of saying. 

Jen: Uh, but I, uh, I'm so annoyed at Alabaster with all the stuff that happened on the island because when, so Alabaster, as said in the intro, he's a ten, ten ringer.

He is extremely powerful and he can manipulate the earth much further away from himself than Syenite can, um, from herself. When Syenite goes to Alia, she closes off the volcano that she accidentally set and that the Guardians have set as a trap and let keep going. [00:13:00] And she kind of like fucks it up a little bit while she's doing it because she's not used to manipulating the earth while she's on a ship because then you start doing like tidal waves and all this kind of thing.

And when she does that, she starts, she realizes things have gone wrong. She starts panicking and Alabaster reaches out to there and fixes it. And she knows that's what's happened. So Alabaster knew the volcano was there. Alabaster knew this stuff was, was waiting for her as a trap. And he, he knew enough about the fulcrum to know it would have been set as a trap.

He knew enough about Syenite to know that's something that she would have. Like, it was specifically for her, and he didn't warn her, he didn't say anything, he's just like, oh yeah, I'm just gonna let her go fall into the trap over there that I have known about for, like, years. 

Ellie: I, I think, I think that's one of Alabaster's flaws.

Well, I, I guess also firstly he, like they weren't supposed to go anywhere near Alia on their boating trip, uh, or their, their, the boating trip, their [00:14:00] pirating escapades, um, but she convinces Inan to, um, to take, to take them over there, but I also just feel like it's, it's one of his kind of character flaws, like Alabaster's, like he, he has been broken so many times by the Fulcrum, by the, the powers that be who abuse these people with power.

Um, so badly that I think he would have known how much of a battle it would have been with Syenite telling her about that and I feel like he was just hanging on to the shreds of this like somewhat perfect life that he was finally managing to experience and I think, but I think it was also a case of like, I feel like he deep down somewhere would have known what Syenite was feeling on the island because He has spent his whole life playing the game and being trapped and being controlled and not being able to kind of [00:15:00] expand in the way he wants.

So I think a tiny bit of him should have understood Syenites. Needs better, but I think the broke he was just so broken that yeah, he couldn't really acknowledge it. Maybe. 

Jen: Yeah, like I totally agree that it's um, it's very, it's an in character action. Yeah, yeah. Does it mean I'm not like annoyed at him?

Ellie: True, fair, yes. 

Jen: But like, on your point about, uh, Alabaster kind of like knowing that kind of being trapped thing that, that Syenite must be feeling, he also, he perpetuates that for her on the island because she's never going to be. Like, Syenite will never be the mother who stays home. No. She'll never be happy with that stuff.

And she, she says it herself, she's like, I love my child. I love all this kind of stuff. It doesn't mean I want to see him every single minute of the day. I want to go and do other things with my life. I want to, whatever. [00:16:00] And alabaster is like, well, why don't we have another kid and why aren't you happy just It's staying with the children like I am.

And he's trying to enforce that same kind of captivity to her for like his perfect version of a life, even though that's not what she wants. Yeah. Oh, a hundred 

Ellie: percent. Yeah. And I think this is like really highlighting the skill of Jemisin's writing is that every character, no matter how much you love or hate them, you can really see both their progression It's never a case of like one of their flaws is kind of like forgotten about to move the plot forward.

It's their flaws that make the plot move in both like heart wrenching but realistic but not then also not over the top either. It's not like oh this person like dislikes curse words and then towards the end of the book somebody says a curse word and they Like, kill them or something, like it's not a, [00:17:00] it's, it's all so well balanced and so proportional that, um, it's, it's a really, um, I guess, yeah, commendable skill.

Jen: Yeah, it's, it's written so well, everything ties together so well and all the characters have depth. Yeah. Even the smallest little side characters that you, you barely know anything about, you're like. But. They feel like real people, they, they feel like, I, I might not understand what's going on but I understand that the rest of the world understands what they're like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Ellie: Like, like Jija. We didn't even meet him in this book, right? 

Jen: Her husband. Yeah. 

Ellie: He's just mentioned. Yeah. Yeah. He's just, but like, he's mentioned by different people in different ways that you build such a clear picture of like this man who has been raised in a world to believe that Roggas, which is the derogatory term for Oregene, are, are just going to result in [00:18:00] death and they're terrible and there's, there's nothing good that can come of them.

And he believes that so deeply that when he's left minding his child and he realizes his, What, four year old, three year old toddler, uh, has these abilities. He kills his own child, but, but it's, it, it feels so like, it feels like a real character, even though we never meet him throughout this whole book.

Um, yeah. So yeah, speak of side characters and, and depth and you're like, I, I understand his motives even though I've never met him. 

Jen: And everything that you learn about him from the other people who are in the calm and he's just like mentioned in passing and the, and it's just like, yeah. And he, he seems like the kind of person who would do that.

He seems like the kind of person who would just act on some fear or hatred or a thing that he had been told and wouldn't even think about it. Might think about it [00:19:00] later, but not in the instant. And It's like, yeah, because he, he just seems like one of those people, like, and everyone in this world is, is thought to hate Roggas so much.

Even the Roggas themselves hate themselves so much. And it's one of these things that, like, they do have this great, great power that is extremely dangerous. And there's a level, like, it's one of the things I, it's one of the things I like about the kind of discrimination that's described in this book, is there is a reason for people to be really afraid of them.

Now, it's not a reason for them to be horrible people and basically enslave them, but it's like. It's not a case that is just like, Oh, we picked someone who is slightly different. It's like, well, these people do have the ability to kill everybody around them if they lose control of their emotions. And it's like, well, you know, [00:20:00] I can understand people being terrified of them and wanting to know what they can do to stop it.

Yeah. And then you have the guardians who apparently have existed since forever, who are just like, well, we're, we know what to do, what to do with all these, these people who can make earthquakes and then kind of like push. It seems like they push society into making the fulcrum kind of thing. Yeah. 

Ellie: Yeah.

And, and it's so like, as you said, the kind of, they are truly enslaved people, but they are truly like, also like they try and, and find Roggas Oregenes as children so that they can so deeply indoctrinate them. Into hating themselves that this I think kind of perpetuates through Damiah, Sionite, Essun that like that self hatred like the reason she blames herself for everything is because of also how they raised her because everything is always their fault.

Um, I forgot what the line in the book is, but [00:21:00] like she basically grows up believing this kind of phrase of like, if a, if a guardian hurts you, it means you have done something wrong, even though you don't know what it is. Yeah. It's like if you're ever, if you're ever like harsh or, or, or whatever by a guardian, it is always your fault.

Even though you don't know why, like, Oh my God, the, the mental, like, ugh. 

Jen: Yeah, even in the moments in Alia when they, when, um, Syenite and Alabaster are getting attacked by a guardian who just appears and tries to kill them. And there's a moment when Syenite doesn't even fight back because she's just like, well, he's a guardian.

And if a guardian's attacking me, then I guess I should be dead. And it's only, I think it's Alabaster, um, essentially trying to sacrifice himself to get her free that makes her snap [00:22:00] out of it and actually fight back and do something. And like, if Alabaster hadn't done that, she probably would have just.

Stood there and said, yeah, you know, you're right. Kill me. 

Ellie: Oh, yeah, and it's so interesting. It's hard to see, like, as they go along, like, Syenite and alabaster together, how carefully I feel like at points, well, he's, he's very cynical by the time they meet, he has been through so much. He is the most cynical, but I think even through his cynicism, he tries to hold himself back and tries to kind of like breadcrumb Syenite.

Out of the indoctrination, like sometimes it's very heavy fisted because he just gets impatient, but It must be so hard as well, being, having grown up in this world, having finally realized how badly [00:23:00] everyone around you who is like you is being treated and not being able to like convince anybody else in a way.

Like you are being so badly treated. Stand up for yourself, but also don't get yourself killed. Like it's impossible. Yeah. Oh. 

Jen: And they'd have all the moments that. Only the really, the ones who've like proven themselves to be loyal to the fulcrum are the only ones allowed to leave the fulcrum. So the only time that you're not under surveillance by a guardian is after you've proven you don't need it.

So Alabaster would be, you know, just waiting to try and find somebody who appears to be Totally fulcrum, but not really someone that I wonder how much it is for him that Syenite is someone that for some reason he feels he can trust or that she's met him when he's at the end of his tether [00:24:00] and he's just like, I don't care anymore.

I'm saying anything. If I get killed, I get killed because look, it's what's happened to me already. What's happened to like his children already and the things that he's had to do and it's just like, screw it, you know? And that kind of, that, as I'm saying that I do feel like that's more of what's happened to him because you see how he acts, um, on the island trip, the whole thing he's, he's passed beyond the, like, I care about myself.

I have self preservation. I have, it's like, no, I just can't do it anymore. Yeah. I'm just doing whatever. 

Ellie: Yeah. And I think all of this really speaks to like the, the world building as well because like the book is called. The fifth season, the, the trilogy is part of is the broken earth trilogy. And it's all about this idea that there's your standard four seasons normally, but a fifth season will [00:25:00] hit.

And this is these like world shattering, um, like cataclysmic events. And everybody lives in the book by what they call stone lore. Which is, which everyone believes to be this wisdom handed down from generations and generations and eons and eons of people who have survived throughout all of the previous fifth seasons.

Um, and it is very. Anti Oregene, anti Rogga, very about controlling people and about instilling fear. And one of the things that Alabaster mentions that is kind of only like fleeting, but stood out was that, oh, he said to Sion at one point, have you ever read the 16th tablet? I can't actually remember the number of the tablet, but you know, 16th or 27th or something.

And she's like, but there are only 10 [00:26:00] tablets. And he's like, no, no, no, no, no. There is so much more that they just don't put out into the world. And just that fleeting mention, like also alludes to the depth and the breadth of the world that these characters are living in. 

Jen: Yeah. There's this whole thing with, um, it's, it's kind of a continuation, um, of, you know, history is written by the victors kind of thing.

Exactly. But even more so because every time that a fifth season comes around, and the fifth seasons are of varying, like, catastrophes. Sometimes they're, they're like mini fifth seasons and they're localized. Sometimes they're massive and everyone suffers. And then when people come out the other side.

They get to pick and choose what history gets to still be history, um, and what versions of like all the stone tablets exist, but which ones had they chiseled [00:27:00] something off. And it's just, it's such an interesting take on, you know, it's just specifically saying people do change history for whatever their https: otter.

ai The history that different countries learn are, are different to each other, depending on like what side you're on in a conflict or what the country's cultural outlook is. And when you put them all together, they're at odds with each other, except the thing is with the Oregenes is they don't have their own history.

There's no ability to have that kind of like oral tradition or written tradition. Well, I guess there is to an extent, but it has to be really, really secret because Alabaster obviously has learned this and he mentions having learned it from different people, but it's so hard to be able to do that because if you go against anything the Guardians say, you're dead.

If they find out that [00:28:00] you're looking into this kind of stuff, I'm going to guess you're dead. And yeah, like people, I say there's a large part of it being that, you know. Um, when people are scared, they kind of accept anything. Yeah. So if you're told the only way to get out of this fifth season is by doing this thing to other people, like setting up the fulcrum, giving the guardians power, doing any of these things.

It's like, of course I'm going to do it. 

Ellie: Yeah. The whole world is built around the, it's kind of constant othering, like it's us and them. And even like, it's us and them. Versus like, quote unquote, stills, regular people and the Oregenes. But it's also, it, it, it like scales up to the country size and then like the whole way down to each individual calm or community.

Like when a season hits, your calm locks down, like no stragglers are allowed in. Each person has an assigned role. It's extremely, uh, tribal [00:29:00] and kind of militaristic almost in a way as well. 

Jen: Yeah. And like the othering of people based on like their com, their use names, um, they have use casts. Some people are designated to be breeders.

Some people are just, you're strong, uh, I guess wander around and when we need you to build a wall, you can build a wall and you can change your use cast, um, but only through like. It seems usually like by like education that you can become like a doctor or something and that will change your, your caste.

But yeah, it is kind of, uh, it's a strange thing of it's both othering and inclusive because to the Oregenes, like. They just, they are outside of this world of the comms that have the use casts. And as soon finds in Castrima, [00:30:00] Roger, um, or Rogga, sorry, is being used as a cast as a use cast name. And she's so taken aback of like, Oh.

This thing that I am is actually useful and considered a part of this existing society and like, it's like, she doesn't really know how she feels about that, but it's, yeah, it's so, it's one of those things of like, you're, you're being othered in a different way to be inclusive. We're othering you like we other ourselves kind of thing.

It's very strange. Yeah. 

Ellie: Yeah, and Kostrima is, um, such an interesting, uh, calm because it's actually people who've moved underground into what they, the, the world calls like a dead civ artifact. So civilization gone past, um. It is, they, they built this huge underground city [00:31:00] and the, the current day people kind of grow up either fearing or just completely ignoring them.

They're just kind of like random things standing on a mountain or even floating in the sky. Like they're just, yeah, artifacts and not really anything special, but watch Kostrima. Shows is that the whole city kinda like this underground city has like an air filtration system and all this stuff only kicks in when there are Roggas in the city, like the city only functions with Roggas, and it shows that like history hasn't always been the way, the way we learn it, obviously, because Otherwise, how would they have lived underground?

If, if Roggas were always hunted down or thrown out, how would this city have worked without them? And it, yeah, starts to like gently pick holes in everyone's worldview and assumptions, which can be really hard to stomach. I 

Jen: [00:32:00] have to say though, on this, um, we always. You're always saying on this podcast about how you're more like a vibes reader and like I'll come in with like the the nitpicking stuff and this book is something that whenever there's like fantasy and sci fi together my brain just just does not put them together and this is such an example in the fifth season because I can never remember that they have electricity.

Every time they mentioned they have electricity technology, I'm like, they have what now? They have light? When did they get? And it's like, yeah, since, since it's since like the second chapter when they started talking about the, like the hot water showers and it's like, Oh, right. Okay. Yeah. And every single time.

Like my brain just refuses to believe this and oh my God. Yeah. 

Ellie: I get it. I get it. I get it because, um, so, uh, an author that we both have read. Extensively, is Sarah J Maas, and she has a couple of fantasy series that are kind of I guess I'm going to call it traditional, [00:33:00] like, sword and shield ish fantasy.

And then she has a series that's coming out at the moment that I just knew was more fantasy. And I was like, ah, fantastic. Picked up the first book, um, of Crescent City. And almost fell off my chair when it starts off with the main character, Bryce, like literally the first page, like typing in an alarm code.

And I'm like, what? There can't be power. What are you talking about? I'm expecting dragons and mermaids and there, there are those things, but it's a modern city, so I completely understand. That's not quite the kind of sci fi, uh, fantasy overlap that you're talking about specifically, but like, it's a very, I had a very, very similar moment of being like, excuse me, I had you in a box in my head and you broke the box.

Um, 

Jen: and I do love, uh, okay, I, I won't go into too much now because [00:34:00] it's, it makes more sense when you talk about it in like the other books in the series. But I've seen a lot of things by NK Jemisin talking about how she does her world building and like the amount of detail and like scientific effort and stuff that she puts into it.

And when you know that kind of stuff and like you go back and you're, cause this is a reread for me, obviously I think, um, and when you're going back through and you're like, Oh yeah, of course these things all make sense in this kind of way. That's such a core thing is that it does always make sense.

Like there's nothing that's just thrown in there that doesn't work because even though like my brain is refusing to like, to remember that there is technology, the technology makes complete sense. Like it's, it's not that it stands out cause it's like, well, what was that? It's like, no, no, no. Jen's brain's just, just stupid today, but uh, yeah.

Ellie: So I technically have read this series as well. [00:35:00] I remember a couple of vague things. I don't actually remember the next two books solidly enough. I know, okay, in my defense. He's so lucky. Yeah, in my defense, that this was back at the end of 2019 and I was, I got the worst flu of my life and I, I couldn't get out of bed.

And so I just listened to these three books basically in one go. And I both remember absolutely falling in love with everything about it. But coming back to it now, I, I, I know one or two things that are spoilers. But I don't remember the whole thing, which is amazing. I've never had this happen before.

I'm really enjoying it. But yeah, at the end of this book, book one, when Alabaster turns around and says, um, have you ever heard of something called the moon? And my mind was like, Oh my God, because it does make so much sense. Like as you're saying. Yeah, like you, you clearly have, [00:36:00] uh, read a lot more about Jemisin's writing and world building than I have because I've read nothing and you just mentioned it there, but when you, when this bombshell is dropped that there is no moon for this world, you're like, Oh, what if there was no moon for our earth?

Like would that affect it the same way as what's happening there and you're kind of like, yeah, maybe so like it's so clear They're like scientific research that she's done Um, without even looking into it too deeply, it's like, yes, yes, the research is there. 

Jen: I love the way that throughout the book, you don't really question the moon not being mentioned because not only is, is it that, you know, I guess there's a level of, you kind of skip over things that you, you figure just won't be mentioned, like you don't have to say there's a sun in the sky for us to know there's a sun in the sky.

But there's a big point that's made throughout it [00:37:00] of the earth is so fractured and it's so dangerous that everything needs to be about the earth. Only the like, airy, fairy, head in the clouds, ridiculous people care anything about earth. The stars and the sky, who needs to care about those when the earth is actively trying to kill you at all points, like points in time.

And Syenite, I think it's Syenite especially, is like very dismissive of these people who think they understand what the stars are doing. And yeah. You just accept it that this is a thing that's dismissed. So if they never care about it, why would they ever mention it? And then you go back, you're like, Oh, wait, it's because there's no moon.

That's why they never mention it. Yeah. 

Ellie: Oh, great. Yeah. It was also one of those moments where like, quite often I'll be reading. Uh, a fantasy book and I'm going to admit I'm one of those people, I do not look at the map. Like I'll look at the map as I'm opening the book. I've never 

Jen: looked at the map. But I never [00:38:00] go 

Ellie: back and refer to a map.

I have like a vague blob in my head of where everything is country wise. That's good enough for me. Uh, what I found really interesting though for this was that like when, when I realized there was no moon, it made it feel so much more like it is literally our world, but like 5, 000 years in the future or 10, 000 years in the future or whatever, and so much has changed or are like a parallel universe version of our world where people have this horogeny who can shift the, the, the, the energy, um, of the earth, like, yeah, yeah, it was, is a really cool moment of where I'm kind of taken out of thinking of this amorphous, amorphous blob of a fantasy realm and wrapping it around our actual earth and being like, Whoa, imagine.

Jen: I have also never looked at a map. 

Ellie: Great. I'm glad. 

Jen: I, like, I open them and then I look at them [00:39:00] and then I instantly forget them. And I don't get, like, it, it doesn't matter. No. I'm sorry, they don't matter. If someone says in their fantasy book that like, oh, we sent a fleet of ships through the blah, blah, I'm not going to be like, oh, I looked at that on the map and the scale is totally wrong.

You'd never get the ships in there. I just go. Okay. Yeah, they they're sailing there. I'm sure they know what what what they're supposed to be doing. 

Ellie: Yeah. And I feel like if somebody writes the world. Well enough that people are traveling through, you will be able to kind of have a mental map of some description.

We all have different aphantasia or whatever levels you are or whatever mental, uh, picturing imaginations you want to describe. But if I feel like if somebody writes well enough, you can enjoy a book without needing to reference a map. 

Jen: Let us, let us go into the challenges. So the world is, uh, First of all, the world is constantly trying to kill us, [00:40:00] um, in every which way, all the people, all the actual planet, but we have condensed this down to a bunch of actual challenges that we can try and survive.

So, the first one is Um, okay. We're kind of, kind of taking these chronological, like real chronology rather than book chronology because we skip between life chronology. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, first is Jemiah and for her it is the fulcrum training. So Jemiah gets taken as a young child and brought to the fulcrum where she has this like intense training that goes on and lots of like.

bullying and kind of having to adhere to extremely rigid rules or else there's these really big punishments. Um. Disproportional punishments 

Ellie: for children. Yeah. 

Jen: Yes. So do you [00:41:00] think, do you think you could survive over the top ridiculous? School with Supreme Corporal punishment. 

Ellie: I don't know like this is really a life or death Make or break only the strongest survive and even the strong ones who survive are broken by it Um, especially just there when you phrased it as, imagine I had to go back to school and it was 10 times worse.

Um, I sat my leaving cert 12 years ago. Yes. 

Jen: For non Irish listeners, that means 12 years ago. Yes. 

Ellie: I, I like secondary school, high school, whatever. I, I sat, I did my final exams of high school 12 years ago. I had a nightmare about those exams six months ago, like, okay, I'm usually, I have not, I [00:42:00] have not thought about them or I haven't, I haven't had a nightmare or anything related to them in years and years and years, but six months ago I woke up in like a panic being like, wait.

Like, did I just have a leaving cert nightmare? Like what is going on? 

Jen: Yeah, I haven't had a leaving cert nightmare in years, but I used to get so many of them. Like for a good, good long time after I'd finished college, like into multiple jobs, I, I, I remember one time having a nightmare that Um, I was getting fired from my job because they, because I had to re sit the Leaving Cert Maths Class like test and I couldn't get the same score to prove I'd actually got my Leaving Cert.

Yeah. So that meant my college degree was fake and therefore I was losing my job. And it's like, what? Exactly. Exactly. Highly traumatizing. Leaving Cert is highly traumatizing. 

Ellie: And so, and there wasn't even actual like corporate punishment [00:43:00] involved. 

Jen: So yeah, yeah, I guess like I feel with that kind of stuff, you're actually better equipped to deal with it as a child, dare I say, because when you're an adult and you've already gone through it, you've you've hit like your Level of how much I can deal with this.

And you're used to having autonomy. So like being in a situation, it's more chafing because you're like, well, I'm used to having my own house and my own job and doing my own stuff. Whereas if I was like 12 or something, I'm used to being told where I need to be. I have to go to classes anyways that I hate.

I'm. All this stuff is going on that I don't like and this is just life, whereas I haven't had to do that in such a long time that I feel like I'm at a disadvantage having to try and do that as an adult. 

Ellie: Oh, that's so true. Yeah. Like if you're, when you're being brought in as a child, especially a young child, you're kind of being indoctrinated.

It's much [00:44:00] easier to indoctrinate a child who knows nothing than us. who are not children anymore. So yeah, if we were literally dropped in as we are right now, at least if we were dropped in as we are right now, if a ten year old tried to bully us. Probably, probably, probably would like, would not work.

Jen: Yeah, I wonder how much of it would just be kind of doable as an adult with like adult cop on of like, yes, I have to work at this and then I do that and that's all I need to do. Um, as opposed to as a kid, not grasping that and not really understanding the way to move around it. However, there would also be the problem of like, if you were a kid who's getting bullied by another kid and you told an adult who obviously doesn't care anything about your opinion, like as adults, we would expect it was like, well, they're going to listen [00:45:00] to us because like I'm bringing a relevant point and I'm saying it in a calm way.

And they're going to be like, I could not care less what you weird demon child care, like say, and I don't know, hit with a brick or something. 

Ellie: Yeah. So I think we're basically saying that the fulcrum, just like any child who's brought in, it's you, if you survive, you're not surviving well. 

Jen: Yes. Yeah. I think like, I think we could make it through.

But I don't think it would be easy. I think it would definitely be a very difficult thing to try and, try and do. Yeah. 

Ellie: That PTSD would be, um, intense. As we see throughout Ibaster. 

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. I bet he still wakes up and he's like, Oh my god, my first ring exam! 

Ellie: And he has ten exams to, to imagine himself through, oh my god.[00:46:00] 

Jen: Uh, excuse you, leaving said, there are like, at least ten papers to do. Oh, that's true. That's true. That's true. Yeah. Damn. You got me there. You got me there, Jen. Uh, okay. So let's assume that we have survived philcom training and the, um, horrible, horrible children bullying us. And we've gone all the way forward to Syenite and her fight against the Guardian.

So this is the Guardian that she fights when she is in Alea and she's pulled up the obelisk and a Guardian appears to try and kill her and Alabaster. And 

Ellie: I think in a way this is almost like. the bystander defect on steroids. Cause it's not like that you are watching something and seeing it happen to somebody else.

You're watching something happen to you that you know is wrong, but you still, you know, is wrong in, in like. An abstract sense because somebody shouldn't just hurt somebody for [00:47:00] existing, but because you've been raised believing that you are worth nothing, you're just standing there watching it happen. Um, yeah, so, so the, the, the like core thing we have to remember in this fight is the Guardian cannot touch us.

Skin to skin contact is a Guardian's power. They can kind of neutralize you even more. Um, and. He appears topless, I think, I think. Is he swimming? Flexing the pecs. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. His shirt is hanging over a rail. So even when you first encounter him, you don't see the maroon robes that they are. Um, yeah, he just gives like weird guardian 

Jen: vibes.

Yeah. Yeah. Just looks a bit creepy. Well, I mean, random strange guy walks up to you with no shirt on. It's probably going to be like, [00:48:00] so I say we'll be on our guard quicker than Syenite who thinks that's like totally normal. We'll be like, what's with the guy? Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, I feel like a large part of this is, yeah, knowing, knowing to react.

Not even how you react, because it feels like so much of the fight and the things that happens were almost just instinct, um, but no, but like breaking through like the, the frozen panic and stuff like that. And I'll be honest, like, actually, okay, 

Ellie: are you a deer in the headlights kind of a person? 

Jen: It really depends.

It really depends. If I have someone say something to me, most of the time. I won't say something back even though I should and I'll, like, berate myself for it. However, I have had times where, like, someone has, like, grabbed me or tried to, like, grab something off me or hit me and my response is to just, like, [00:49:00] try and punch them in the face.

Um, so it's like my brain is like, no, words are too strong. Only punch strangers. Oh, but then you're touching his skin. I know. So like, he's not yelling something at me, which means I might react, but then I might react by trying to punch him and then it all goes wrong. So I think I'm just in a really bad situation here.

Ellie: Well, at least we would each theoretically have a version of alabaster beside us. Who snaps us out of it, eventually, hopefully. Um, but yeah, I, I think what is so difficult and pivotal about this fight is that It is kind of the first time that Syenite is breaking through that deer in the headlights feeling in this situation.

Because, so I've done, I've done a lot of first aid courses. And especially recently I've been doing like my remote emergency care. So like [00:50:00] after my rec three, um, I might be doing my rec four this winter. But I've also been in the room with other people doing their rec three a couple of times since I've done mine.

And it's so interesting how the repetition really sinks in. And so I remember in, in, in a first aid course I did a couple of years ago, that was just a standard first aid course. Like you still, you feel weird being in this simulated environment. Being like, now I have to shout and tell somebody to go get a defibrillator or whatever.

And then by the time I was doing my like third one this year, I was shouting and whatever. No problem. Um, and then, um, I saw someone fall over at an event recently and I had a split second of being like, Oh no. And then I was like, wait, this is what you were literally trying to practice for. Um, which was a really nice feeling to be like, okay, it actually snapped into place.[00:51:00] 

But that was because. I had done it so many times in practice, so, like, breaking through that mental barrier the very first time in the real world, it's hard. 

Jen: Yeah. I mean, I'm mainly thinking that you probably shouldn't have tripped that poor person, but yeah,

I understand. Excuse you. Excuse you. Okay. Carl shouldn't have tripped that person then. Fine. Fine. Fine. 

Ellie: Fine. Nah, nah, I'm the clumsy one, I'm the clumsy one. If either of us were ever going to accidentally trip somebody, it would be me, and I didn't, and I didn't, for the record. 

Jen: Uh, so do you want to say like, oh, yeah, I might be like 50 50 and you'd be like 75 25?

Oh, okay. 

Ellie: Or do you want to, do you think you're like an 80 or do you think you're a 50? Oh no, I think I'm maybe like a 60 40. [00:52:00] Okay. Okay. Maybe a 65 35. 66. 6 recurring and 35. Exactly. So, that's an improvement. Um, we are, we were hypothetically Damaya and a child, so you know. We're showing growth as the character, as the character grows.

Jen: As the character's challenges align with our own age, things just seem more realistic. Yeah. Uh, okay. So then we move on to Essun, Escaping Terimo. So Terimo is the name of the comm that she starts off in. Um, and after her son's been killed, um, they, and her husband and daughter are gone. They suddenly start to realize that like, oh, we must have an Oregene here.

Um, that Oregene is probably Essun. Let's go kill her. 

Ellie: Yeah, because [00:53:00] if, like, Essun is somebody who joined this comm, and if a couple have a baby that is a Rogga, well it has to come from one of them and Essun is the outsider, so we're going after Essun. And so she realizes she has to escape her comm, which has. I don't think it has stone walls, but it's surrounded anyway and it has a gate out and her her challenge in this moment is The death of her son is still incredibly fresh and she is just trying to hold the shell of herself together to get out of this town to find her daughter.

Like she has had so little processing time that her emotions, everything are so extremely volatile. Um, 

Jen: and. But also I think like she doesn't process, like her thing is she never processes like any [00:54:00] trauma. She makes a new self. So like this for her is. Well, okay, I was going to say it's the worst trauma she's ever had.

It is quite close to the worst trauma that is possible, but even with everything else that's gone on with her life, she's never, ever learned to deal with anything. No, 

Ellie: no. And, and in many ways like this would normally have been the death of Essun. This would have been her ending. Um, so she wouldn't have needed to kind of process it as Essun.

She would have just. Yeah. Escaped and dropped. Made a new person. And just pretended nothing, like her previous life didn't exist, no, no processing of trauma. So to escape Terimo, she finds the head man, whose name I've forgotten. And he is surprisingly sympathetic in that he also realizes that there is something going on here.

And he's like, I'll escort you out. So at least we know we're being escorted out in a way. However, I'm just really curious how [00:55:00] tall these walls were. Like. Did leaving out the front gate have to be the option? Was there another way out? 

Jen: I mean, I would assume it would just based on the way that they talk about stone lore and how important it is.

And so much of that is making sure that when the season hits because the season always hits, you need to have walls. And she always talked about like Terimo being Like a sensible town and all their, their houses were underground because that was like the safest way to build them because a shake couldn't tear them down and all this kind of thing.

So I'd kind of expect Remo to actually, like they did, did their best with what they had. So I would expect it to be like fortified. 

Ellie: Okay, okay, so yeah, maybe going out the gate before anyone suspects anything would have been the best option, um, but, so what happens in the book is the guards at the gate have also come to the same conclusion and don't want to let her out, and [00:56:00] they go to attack, they accidentally kill the head man, Essun explodes and, uh, ices them all, kills them, and, and walks out the damaged gates, so our challenge is either would we have the power to do the same thing that Essun did?

Or would we have a different kind of power to somehow avoid that confrontation? I don't know if it's even possible. 

Jen: I think there's a level of it that's her self control. She does kill them but she doesn't kill everybody. No. She only kills a handful and she does note that while she Her actions accidentally destroyed the town's water supply so that everyone there will die eventually and it is her fault, but she doesn't kill them in that moment.

She just knows that she has also caused their deaths. So it's got, I'm kind of thinking like, do you react to the same level of control that [00:57:00] she did? Do we just, just kill everybody? Um, cause I don't think there's a way to get out of this that doesn't involve actually Killing 

Ellie: people. Mm. It just depends on how fine we think our horogeny control is and our emotional control.

Jen: Yeah, so I would say that we both probably, we have more experience processing trauma than Essun does. 

Ellie: Well, yes, I don't think she's even, like, understands the concept of therapy. 

Jen: Yeah, so I think we both have a lot more, like, control over us, even for something that horrific. I think we just, in general, have a bit more control over ourselves than she would.

I don't know. But you see, I don't actually know if having more control over yourself is really a good thing in this situation. Because if you're like, Oh, I overreacted and I must stop because you realize you didn't have [00:58:00] the control might make you less dangerous than if you're like, well, you know, I don't care and I want to kill you all.

You know, like if you're calmer in the moment, you're not necessarily more controlled if you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they kind of do just, like, they are trying to kill you and one of them did just kill your son. So do they deserve to all just get iced? You know? 

Ellie: Yeah. And it really is one of those moments where I've forgotten how they, how it's phrased, but it's this like, it's one of those moments where Essun, like the language that's used around her is really you, like, You and us.

Um, and it's that that flip of everybody around her being like, you are an other, you are different. And she, and then, and in her head she's like, no, no, no. I am human. It is all of you who are inhumane in how you treat a 3-year-old child. [00:59:00] Um, and I think that's what is the tipping point in that moment for her to be like, nah.

None of you are humane. You may be human, but you're not. Yeah, you don't deserve to treat people the way you do. Which just feels like a big build up of her whole life. Um, I think, I think no matter what, we're probably escaping to Remo. I don't know what damage we're doing. I don't know how much of a heavy conscience we're leaving with.

Would we also accidentally damage the water supply? I don't know. Like, break the underground wells. Would we accidentally kill the whole town? In our Pain and anguish and 

Jen: Would 

Ellie: we 

Jen: intentionally kill the whole town? 

Ellie: Yeah. But I, I guess the, uh, the head man who, who dies in that moment as well, um, is [01:00:00] proof that not everybody in the town is terrible.

Jen: Yeah. And so there is also, like, doctor guy. Yes. Yeah. So, okay, we're escaping Chirimo. We are hopefully not killing everybody. Yes. Nice. That's such a low bar for success. Only accidental mass murder allowed. Okay, so, um, our next challenge is Generally navigating this fifth season world. So all the fifth seasons are different, but this one is like particularly bad.

And there's a bunch of things that seem quite common to a lot of the fifth seasons. So one of them is. Uh, some plants and animals like change during the seasons and they're fine when it's normal, but then when the fifth season hits, they start reacting to the things like the, the change in like the sunlight, the poisonous gases in the air, anything like that.

And um. [01:01:00] I think one of the big problems that we would have is that these thing called curcosa, um, because people seem to have curcosa as pets. So but when, when, if a season hits, they turn into these like ravenous monster thingies. Yes. But they're described as also like cute pets 

Ellie: as as adorable little pet kind of things.

Jen: Yeah. 

Ellie: Something like a dog. Not really. But you know. Yeah, I'm part 

Jen: of like a puppy of a kitten or something like that. Yeah, 

Ellie: yeah. The same heart strings are pulled. 

Jen: Yeah. Um, I, I feel like we would both be in trouble because we would own Kakuza. 

Ellie: Oh, yeah. I think we would both definitely have Kakuza pets. Yeah.

Well, something that's, I guess, somewhat in our favor is. In, in this, like, situation of we would have them as pets, at least we would have just [01:02:00] fled the town that our pet is in. So at least we wouldn't be dealing with our own rabid monster that we at some point called Fluffy and now potentially have to, like, terminate because it's trying to bite your head off.

Jen: Are you saying that you would leave Chirimo without Fluffy? 

Ellie: I feel like it would be suspect if I went with Fluffy, and also everybody knows that Cacoosas change when a season hits, so I think even though this would be like a terrible stance to have for the town and for everybody else, I think I would rather leave Fluffy seeing Fluffy still looking like Fluffy than bring Fluffy and have to deal with the consequences.

Jen: Okay, so you're just, you're okay more with adding to the potential murdering of people in Terimo by leaving Fluffy with them? 

Ellie: I am shifting the emotional baggage of somebody else having [01:03:00] To, like, deal with all these pets that have turned into monsters than having to deal with it myself. So, when I was a kid and I had ponies, one of them would get sick every winter, um, and he would need to be injected with antibiotics.

This wasn't made for the Irish cold weather. Um, and I, up until that point, had wanted to be a vet. Do you think I could inject the poor pony with the antibiotics that would make him better? Oh my god. No. Because the needles are huge! And I was afraid I was going to be hurting him. And my mum, who is a nurse, was like, but this is going to be what makes him better and doesn't do permanent damage to his lungs.

And I'd be like, but, but I can't do it. So I would always be the one that held the horse. And she, and she's like, well, I just don't think you can be a vet now. And I was like, yeah, probably not.

Okay. Wow. Um, now [01:04:00] I, I've definitely grown up a lot 

Jen: since then. Like now you stab horses with anything you can find Jen Jen. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. Okay. So bad position for having curcuma, but probably leave the curcuma at home to kill the villagers that we might not kill. So that's ground. Um, Then, yeah, navigating the world, there's a lot of like gas masks, there's a lot of just dealing with like hostile strangers, like you're all traveling somewhere, but everything is starting to go very wrong.

At some point, the group is safer than being alone with that. It's going to flip and it's going to be that the group has turned into many groups and if you're not in the right part of the group, then you're the outsider again and you have shit. Decide the right point to leave and kind of break away, which, I mean, I say for me, I'd be, I would leave earlier than I probably should, because I just feel like I know this [01:05:00] is going to go wrong and therefore I'm going to make everything harder by going on my own too early.

But I feel like that's better than trying to stay with the group too long. Yes. 

Ellie: You and I have both perfected the Irish exit to a fine art. Oh yes. We just disappear from events when we're like, you know what, we've been here, we've done the thing. We, I feel like, I feel like we could both be described as somewhat like extroverted introverts where we can be extroverted and people y and like do all of the outgoing stuff and enjoy it even to a point, but our battery for that is very limited and then we need to go home to our house.

And not talk to anybody for an extended period of time. And so, yes, I think we would, we would both probably split off earlier than is like beneficial, like staying with the, like the, the, the group for longer would make life easier, [01:06:00] but in the long run, you're going to have to go it on your own at some point.

Um, and I will say there is one skill here that I definitely have a bit better than you at the moment, and that is when the ash clouds descend and you can't see. Ahead of you, everything just kind of turns like a whiteout. Oh. 

Jen: Yeah. Okay. I know a point you're getting to, but I've got a different point. Okay.

That might weigh it out. So we'll, we'll. Okay. Yeah, continue. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. 

Ellie: So, um, at one point I think Tonki trades a compass, which are then revealed to be like really, really valuable. At this time, because obviously you can't see anything there to navigate anywhere. It's all map and compass work, which if you live in Ireland and you're going through any sort of mountain skills, mountain leader, outdoor qualification course, you have to use a map and compass.

And also being Ireland, it rains so much and you have to do so much night navigation and [01:07:00] winter navigation that you are going to spend so many days just in a cloud. Where all you can see is two meters in front of you. And you have to use your compass and pace out how far you're going. And so I have lived this situation.

Admittedly not with a gas mask on. I don't have to like filter the air I'm breathing. But the like, the, the difficult navigation. I will be fine. Yes. Yes. 

Jen: I'll definitely give you that. Um, my navigation skills are nowhere near yours. I would say, however, my ability to breathe when there are, you know, particles in the air is probably superior.

Ellie: I don't know where that was going for a second, but yes, yes, that is very true. That is very true. If, if, if we lost the gas masks, you would definitely survive longer than me. Um, for those who don't know, I have like pollen and dander. Allergies that kind of manifest as asthma sometimes, but I don't manage them well.[01:08:00] 

So yeah, my lungs are, uh, very fussy creatures, but when they're, when, like, when they're doing what they're told, it's all great, but yeah, when there is a high level of particulate in the air, not, not, not doing well. 

Jen: Let's be fair, this doesn't actually help. Me at all, because like, we're not, we're not trying to kill each other, we're both trying to survive.

It's a good thing I, I, I like do leg day a lot of the gym, because I'll just carry you on my back, you have the compass and the map, and you'll be like, that way, and I'll be like, okay, Ellie, fine. 

Ellie: Yeah, yeah, when my lungs mean I can't actually walk anymore, because my, my, I just can't breathe deeply enough, you'll just carry me and I'll navigate, perfect, perfect.

It's a good thing you're small. Uh, okay, okay, like as, as we said, as this goes on, I think we're doing better. I think we can navigate the fifth season world because it means being antisocial and outside [01:09:00] in nature by yourself, even if the nature is a bit deadly. 

Jen: Yeah, yeah, it just sounds like nature. Okay, so our last challenge.

Reinvention of self, so this is overview, like, uh, over, overlooking? I don't know. Let's look at the entire book as a whole. We have the character go from being Damaya to Syenite to Essun to whatever questionable form she is in at the end of the book, trying to stay Essun while also trying to change who she is while having all the old versions of herself all like coalescing.

How do you feel you could Reinvent yourself to better survive in different, like, kinds of worlds. 

Ellie: Well, my current favorite hypothesis for the reinvention of self was that at first I was like, yeah, God, she really like picks the [01:10:00] elements of who she is that are the most useful to this. New life and builds her new identity around that.

And I don't know, I don't know what it was thinking that with this click, but I realized, ah, this is just us with all of our different social media accounts. We both have multiple different social media accounts that focus on different elements of who we are. And I think social media has actually made us better at this kind of like fragmentation and like, uh, but also disassociation.

Of self in that what the external world sees is just one version of you and that's not necessarily always a good thing it's often very much a bad thing because it's both the comparison of you thinking everybody else is doing amazing and it's just a highlight reel but it also does mean that I think people [01:11:00] Have the same internal struggle that Esun or whatever her name is by the end of the book has with these different variations of her inside, like who is she really?

Like what, like who, like what is her true person? Um, like you don't know. And if you are like me and you, and you open Instagram and you click on the little. Arrow and you can scroll through the different Instagram accounts you're logged into. Uh, you might be feeling similar, similar feelings some days. 

Jen: Ah, yeah, yeah.

I guess there definitely is a level of even just fragmentation in your normal Life, you know, like your day job and the version of yourself with your friends and your family and your extended family and who you are when there's no one around and you already have those. I wonder, well, yeah, I was, [01:12:00] I guess it's, it's something that would just be exhausting because you'd never.

Be able to not, you'd never be able to like drop that mask, you'd like, there's no moment to yourself, partially because there is no yourself, because you won't ever acknowledge that. But also you always have to be wary that somebody like anyone can walk into the room at any time and you have to be the right version of who they think you are.

Ellie: Especially as Damaya is, is Damaya. At the start, and then she kind of becomes Syenite and that's her choosing to be strong and choosing to be 

Jen: Syenite is a version of herself that could survive. Exactly. She will become that. Yes. Yes. 

Ellie: Thank you. Thank you. Exactly. Whereas then Essun is a very crafted character.

To fit what she believes will get her a position in a comm and help her hide within society. So I feel like as the layers go on, the more versions of [01:13:00] you are, that you're trying to contain inside and, and the more, I guess, narrowing down of a character that you're creating, um, the harder this is. I feel like that point was supposed to go somewhere further, but that's where my brain ended.

Jen: Yeah, okay, so not easy, but Okay. I don't know if we could do it to the extent that she does it because especially like with Essun, she has these moments that like she thinks, she thinks a thought and she berates herself for being the wrong thought for the wrong person who she isn't anymore. Yeah. And that's a level of internalization that like, I'm not sure you can really get to without having some serious problems, but the reinvention of at least a projection of self, I feel.

Yeah, we could probably do. 

Ellie: So, yeah. We're so so. But also, we're again now moving past the age that we are currently. It's true. It's [01:14:00] true. If we're older, 

Jen: it would be easier, you know? We'll revisit this in our 40s and be like, of course! I've done that 16 times already. 

Ellie: I'm not my fourth husband, don't you know, um, 

Jen: even richer than the last, exactly, exactly.

Uh, okay. So the fifth season, I think 

Ellie: we're probably surviving. I think once we escape the fulcrum and the guardians and that toxic level of control, I think we can, like, Being the true loners that we are. I think we can escape, or I think we can survive, when we're alone. Yeah. What a good book. 

Jen: Ah, it's so good.

So good. I cannot wait for us to get to the next one. I know. Okay, great! Uh, thanks for listening! If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, and you can find us on Instagram at ifwesurvivedthis. Let us know if there's any books you would like us to review. 

Ellie: [01:15:00] And our next episode will be House of Flame and Shadow by Sarah J Maas.

See you then! Bye!