Honest Christian Conversations
A weekly podcast dealing with cultural and spiritual issues within the Christian faith.
Honest Christian Conversations
That Doesn’t Define me!
Trauma shapes us, but it doesn't have to define us. In this raw and transformative conversation, Denise G. Lee bravely shares her journey from unimaginable childhood sexual abuse to developing a sex addiction and ultimately finding freedom through authentic faith and recovery.
DENISE G. LEE'S WEBSITE: https://deniseglee.com/
ARE YOU A MAN STRUGGLING WITH THIS ADDICTION? Listen to LOGAN HUFFORD share his story from season three.
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Friends, this episode is a powerhouse. I cannot emphasize how much I love Denise G Lee. She is a sweet woman, so funny, so funny. We are cackling in this episode. She has such a heart for God. She has been set free from a very toxic addiction that was brought on because of childhood events.
Speaker 1:This episode is going to encourage you, empower you. Hopefully, if God forbid, you are going through the same addiction. It will give you another avenue of help and hope. But this is also going to be tough to hear some of the things she's going to say that she went through and that she did through this addiction. So this is not something you're going to want to have your little kids around to hear. It's mainly it's in the beginning, but definitely I would find a different place to listen or watch this, just at least for the beginning part. But it's not, for the faint of heart is definitely difficult to hear. So there's that caveat. But without further ado, we are going to get into her awesome episode so that you can be blessed by her content.
Speaker 1:Before the episode starts, make sure you follow the show so you never miss another episode. I am very excited to talk to you so you never miss another episode. I am very excited to talk to you. I read your bio on Podmatch and it really encouraged me, because I have also had an addiction that I have overcome, and it looks like you have found success afterwards. Unfortunately, that's not always the case for people who have had addictions. Either they have come out of it and they just haven't been able to get back on their feet yet, but it seems like you have, and I'm pretty sure God had something to do with that. So why don't we start with your testimony and then you can share about your addiction and how you came out of it?
Speaker 2:Thank, you, anna, so much for having me and just really a pleasure to be here, and I know that every conversation you've had with guests and even just solo, it's just been through a heart of God and so well good. Thank you so much for your work. So when I think about what you said earlier about success, right, and my addiction, I don't really think it's a success. I think it's God's blessing for today. I don't think that recovery is something that well. I'm done with this, like I've moved on. I'm like I'm riding a unicorn and I'm on the happy land of destiny.
Speaker 2:I don't think that's what it is and I don't want anyone who's listening to this or watching this thinking that, well, denise is going to share my five tips to success as a Christian woman, and that's not really what this conversation's about. You know, I grew up in a situation that primed me for multiple addictions. I was raised in an environment where I had a neglectful father figure or father and a mother mother figure that repeatedly raped me from like birth until like 12th. Like sexually, like penetrated me with objects and stuff, and I'm not going to get into the graphics of it because that's beside the point. But it didn't stop until I was taken away to child Protective Services and I gave them my own bedroom.
Speaker 1:How old were you when that happened?
Speaker 2:11.
Speaker 1:When you were set free from them, it was 11?.
Speaker 2:I was reintroduced, unfortunately, but that abuse stopped when I was 11. Wow, okay.
Speaker 1:I didn't mean to catch you off, I just wanted to know. No, no worries, I didn't have my own bedroom when I was 11. Wow, okay, I didn't mean to catch you off, I just wanted to know.
Speaker 2:No, no worries, I didn't have my own bedroom until I was 11 years old. I shared the same bed with my mother, and so when you're observing and you're watching sexually graphic things and that's normalized it was a setup for me to be also normalized. When I saw hardcore porn scattered around the home, it was a setup for me, equating uh being touched inappropriately by uh, wouldn't say teachers, but people who are supposed to be in leadership positions. That was normalized. And so it was a gradual thing to just have a full-blown sex addiction. And I didn't think it was at the time, and it wasn't until I was 27, 28, when I actually started actually getting recovery and starting that healing journey. So you can imagine having perverse sexual relationships with same sex, opposite sex, any type of sex whatever. That was normalized. And I was going to church, which is weird, which.
Speaker 1:I'm laughing. No, I get it because I had a 17-year pornography addiction and I was still going to church and I was judging the people in the videos and strippers and everything and thinking like I'm better. But I'm sitting here looking at this so, yeah, I, I totally get the chuckle of what was I thinking. Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was. I would, I remember. I would just like read through the Bible and and there was a Paul's humble.
Speaker 1:You know, homosexuals and all these people like, yeah, god's gonna get them, god's gonna yeah, you see but yes, yes, our, our planks were super in our eyes and yet we were like, no, we got you with your specs. Yeah, I, just how you get it. I don't understand where we thought we were going with that, but yeah, I completely. I relate in so many ways to that.
Speaker 2:Addiction does a lot of wild things, and my eyes are about to well up with tears because, in my mind- Let it flow if you need to.
Speaker 1:It's honest Christian conversations, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I think for a lot of us who we go to work or we're parents and we're like we're having all these roles, and then he was found out that over like 15 years of his being that music leader capacity, he was having propositions with young men and what made it twisted about it was that his wife was a life coach for women, talking about empowering themselves and showing up for themselves.
Speaker 2:And you're having literally like you're housing a sexual predator in your house. And the reason why I'm mentioning is that there was no way, if you're in, because sexual addictions are progressive there is no way you could not have seen there was some deviancy and the whole community around them was kind of aiding and abetting because clearly he was creating good music Until enough people were saying this is problematic. Yeah, and I'm mentioning this because I, for me, it was becoming problematic until I, like they were trying to kick me out my last job. I was, I didn't have any friends, I had, uh, people who were literally throwing my life, former lovers. It was a cumulative effect where I had to stop and I pray that that music leader that I mentioned I'm mentioning means, because that's beside the point gets the healing that he needs and for a lot of us who have gone through that, it usually has to get worse before it gets better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, my situation got really bad before I finally realized I needed help.
Speaker 2:So it wasn't until, for me, my recovery journey. I wish I could say that, even though I always said I was a Christian, I didn't have a relationship with God. In fact, I had a very angry relationship with God and it wasn't until I got kicked out from a therapist that I was seeing at the time and forced to go to a 12-step recovery program called Sexaholics Anonymous it's a spinoff of Alcoholics Anonymous and in that program they said you need to rely on the God of your understanding. And I know it wasn't Allah, it wasn't Shiva, it wasn't all this other stuff, and I didn't want to go like get some spiritual rocks or whatever.
Speaker 2:I knew it was Jehovah Jireh, but I didn't know who he was, Despite the fact that I was raised in Episcopal church, then later went to Roman Catholic church. I didn't know God. I had a Bible that was on the knife stand. It was more of less like decor. I just dusted it off every once in a while.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, wow. Your story is resonating with mine. I didn't come back to Christ until I was 30. It accepted him into my heart when I was 12, but I never really felt saved until I was 30 years old, and that's when I really felt that I knew I was a child of God and I still had my addiction to get over. At that point too, I mean, I think maybe a few years into coming back to Christ is when he helped me get over my addiction.
Speaker 2:For a lot of us who are struggling with addictions. I'm speaking my I shouldn't say for a lot of us. I don't want to generalize because I don't know everybody's story, but I know for me, the biggest God that was interfering with me was God with, with, with god, the real god, the lord god. Almighty jehovah, rosh agra. They're like different iterations, but that god was defroning the parental figures in my life and they created this environment that my god is, myself and my pleasure and comfort that's definitely a toxic god.
Speaker 1:that's how. That's how we make terrible choices, that's how we stay in our sin, because we think we're most important. We forget that what we do affects others and how others see us, and I'm very glad that I was able to get out of my addiction, because my head is so much clearer, my heart is so much clearer, and I imagine you feel exactly the same way. How did you become set free?
Speaker 2:For me, it was really actually understanding that my version of God was not God at all. It was about a lot of shame. It was about guilt, it was about self-flagellation, it was about having a sense of just hedonistic values and that was like, if you think that's God, that's not what it is. And then there was also anger. It was anger. If there's a God who loves you and comforts you, why would he put me in this situation? But think about Joseph. He had a 20-year trip going nowhere, apparently, Like wait a minute.
Speaker 2:I'm a slave. Now I'm thrown in jail, what up? I was just telling my brothers about my fancy coat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's like one minute he's doing this.
Speaker 1:He's the best. He's riding high. Then the next minute he's in a pit and he's being sold so the bible was and and what.
Speaker 2:And paul, for many years before he was beheaded, he was in a dark dungeon writing letters. Job too, yeah, yeah. So the bible's like we could talk about very more examples, but the Bible's replete with examples of people who suffer with cause, with no cause and everything in between. And so I think for me, the part of healing and understanding my path was saying that you ain't that special boo-boo, which sucks because we live in a culture that keeps saying you're special.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, you are absolutely right. That is the toxic thing that everyone is talking about. You are enough, you are awesome. All this affirmation, shoving it in our face, making us feel like we're the best, we're the bomb, we're the bomb diggity, whatever you want to call it. From the 90s, that's what I used to hear. All that and a bag of chips that's one of my favorites.
Speaker 1:But yeah, that's not the case. We get puffed up, we start thinking too highly of ourselves, we don't think that we can do anything wrong and then, when we're in the middle of something serious and other people see it, we can't see it. Just like what we were talking about before, where we were judging all these people who are doing all this terrible things while we're sitting there doing our terrible things. Everyone does it and you have to have humility and let go of your pride to see that you are doing it and to let it go, and that's awesome. That that is what sets you free is realizing it's not about you, it's about God. That is very humbling to, especially to someone who has an addiction like that. You have to surrender yourself and what you want in order to put someone else, to put God first.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to say something that I got from Brene Brown. I don't go through everything secular, but there was one thing that was really hit me was everybody talks about pride, right, but there's a difference between pride and hubris.
Speaker 2:Everyone needs healthy pride in their ability to communicate, ability to overcome challenges. You know, giving yourself out of boys. But then there's a different word called hubris, which is not based on anything but other than self-promotion, which may not even be grounded in reality. And so what I think is we all need a form of healthy pride, but it's hubris that we need to work on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree that makes a lot of sense, and the word pride has been thrown around a lot lately, that it's been perverted in its actual meaning. You just gave us a really solid, quick definition of what the difference is between both, and I'm thinking that the pride that everyone's throwing around nowadays is more hubris and less pride. But you are absolutely right. We are allowed to be proud of the things that we do, especially when we do them for the glory of God. You're allowed to have that pride. So don't hear us saying that you can't have any pride, that you just got to be groveling the whole time and be like oh don't thank me for this, no, that's not what we're saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have to say this though, and I see this a lot in Christian circles. I know it's working a little off topic about my addiction story, but I see a lot of people addicted to the pain of serving, and so let me explain what I'm talking about. I should say, the elder woman, the deacon in the church who's running the children's ministry, helping with pickups, with the food distribution, helping with like all these things on top of it, making sure that she doesn't even she homeschools all her kids, and after the end of the day she's exhausted. And she does this day in and day out, and everyone's thankful for her and she keeps thinking. But I should be. And everyone's thankful for her, and she keeps thinking, but I should be doing more. But there's a part of her who enjoys all the trauma of just being dependent on everybody.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like a martyr complex. One of my other guests was talking about something like that. It's, yeah, it's you like to feel, oh, I'm doing this for the glory of God, but then he knows what your heart's posture is in that, and if you are enjoying that, then there's something wrong with that. You're not supposed to be like, oh, I can do more. But with an attitude of I can do more, it's like no, God will give you what he wants you to do. It's not about you, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm glad that you said that, because for a lot of people who have dealt with addictions, they stop the drugging or the sexing or whatever, and then they move into that arena, which is still a form of addiction.
Speaker 1:I got really heavy into working out until I started pulling muscles and everything. Then God was like you're done, you're not going to get addicted to that? Yeah, you have to find a healthy relationship with God, because he's the only one who can truly set us free. And if you don't have that, then you are going to end up getting addicted to something else. Maybe it's not going to be as bad as the first one you had, but you could easily get sucked into something else and do it too much, to where it becomes a problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and now it's psychology called transference. It's just amazing. I mean, I did exercise too. I remember when I was in my first year of sobriety they told me to not date, not obviously have sex with anybody you shouldn't be having sex with. They're not your husband anyway, but the point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know what you mean.
Speaker 2:I remember like, what am I going to do with my time?
Speaker 1:So I did like I didn't do P90X.
Speaker 2:I did Insanity. I was like I remember one person like I ran three miles a day and someone was like are you a fitness model? And I was like no, I just don't know what to do with my time yeah.
Speaker 1:I completely get that. You got to fill it up with something and you got to fill it up with good things that are good for you and that you won't end up making into a problem. So what is it that you do now that you have been set free from your addiction? What do you do now with your life from your addiction? What do you do now with your life? Hey friends, have you joined the Honest Christian Conversations online group yet? If you haven't, you're missing out on a perfect opportunity to grow your relationship with Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1:This is a community for those who want to go deeper in their relationship. You can do Bible studies together, ask the questions you have biblically and get the answers that you might need or maybe you're somebody who has answers to somebody else's questions. You can leave your prayer requests. You can leave your praise reports. This is a community. This is what church is supposed to be, and I am so glad that I finally took that step to make this group so that people's lives can flourish in Jesus name. Also, if you haven't signed up for the mailing list, you're missing out on an opportunity there as well. I send out a weekly email chocked full of so much awesome content that I don't have time right now to share it all with you, but when you do sign up for that mailing list, you get my seven-day free devotional that I created just for those who sign up for the mailing list. If you haven't joined either of these, you can go to my website honestchristianconversationscom and sign up there, or you can use the links for it in the show notes.
Speaker 2:I'm doing something that is a repeated vow that I told God many, many years ago.
Speaker 2:Which is crazy because I didn't think of it at the time. So I remember it was just at the heels of one other spectacular thing I was doing, not in a good way, and I was like God, I'll just do anything, just get me out of the situation, just get me out of the situation. And it led me to seeking people, which led me to SA. And then it led me to a crisis point where I was not able to commingle in the corporate world, being working on my sobriety journey, and what happened was I become? I became an entrepreneur at that point. First it was doing personal training, because I learned a lot then.
Speaker 2:Then I uh bombed as a business coach because I thought I could just mimic and mom all the stuff that I was seeing on Instagram reels. And then, as I was doing that, I was reading lots and lots and lots of self-help books, lots and lots of psychology books, trying to figure out who I really was. And actually, and I remember I was talking to clients about life issues, healing issues, and they're like I came here for business coaching issues, life issues, healing issues, and they're like I came here for business coaching issues. And so what ended up happening was like wait a minute, I'm not a business coach, but I'm definitely not life coaching, right? So what am I doing? And what I realized was I was providing biblically based, because I don't package it with a bunch of scriptures all over the place.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I get that yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Sometimes when you do that, maybe you'll get some people. Sometimes you'll get people who are like no thanks, but there's something in there they need to hear. I get your approach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I just basically wanted to share all the things that helped me not just get sober but stay sober and, speaking in a way from a recovering addict's perspective, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:So you have a podcast too, right? Do you do the same thing on your podcast? Is that what you talk about, or is it a different type of podcast?
Speaker 2:Yeah, my podcast is called the Introverted Entrepreneur Podcast and what I do is I talk just the way we're talking right now. Most of the conversations are me, but I also bring in therapists and doctors and other thought leaders in the healing industry and we just have really honest conversations about how being honest, being authentic, being vulnerable actually not just helps you make money in your business but leads a productive life, and all the more for those who are believers, because there are not a lot of spaces that are honestly talking about the intersection between healing authenticity and I also do whenever I get a chance to talk from biblically-based concepts, because I think it's sorely, sorely lacking. Because I think a lot of people they hear about all these scandals and they're like, well, of course they're scandals, they weren't following God.
Speaker 1:Here's why that sounds like a really good podcast, especially for Christian business owners. I know several of them and, yeah, integrity and honesty are things that people are craving nowadays. Even if you're not a believer, you're still wanting truth and authenticity. So to find businesses that you know that you can trust, that are transparent with you and honest and vulnerable, that is definitely something that is needed. So I appreciate so much that you're devoting yourself to that and to helping people heal and actually be healed from their addictions. That's also really awesome and definitely important and needed, I think, during 2020, with the lockdowns, whether you had an addiction to begin with, I think it got amped up with the fact that you couldn't do or go anywhere and if you didn't have one, there's probably a lot of people who picked one up, and there's so many people hurting just like the past that you had and maybe they didn't pick up an addiction, which I think would be very surprising but just dealing with the baggage from that and needing to heal.
Speaker 1:There's so many people in this world who need healing right now and God is the one who can help them. We are his hands and feet. We are here to help and those who have been there, done that and pulled through. We need to band together and help those who aren't there yet, instead of judging them, like I used to do with strippers.
Speaker 2:You know. I'll say this though, and I don't want to grill too much about the whole pandemic, but it's on my mind that during the pandemic, the churches were closed, but the liquor stores were open.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it made no sense. Our church didn't close for too long, but they did go for it for a little bit, until my pastor was like I've had enough. We're not doing this and opened up, and our church has been thriving since.
Speaker 1:And you got to speak the truth, you got to stand up for truth. We got to do the hard things and it's going to cost us, and that's why we need to not have hubris, that's why we need to be humble and remember it's not about us, it's about God. So what is the name of your website? Because I know that there's people listening who are just sitting here going I need this kind of help, or I know somebody who does need this kind of help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my website is denisegleecom. Just take off all the spaces and if you see an afro, then you're in the right place.
Speaker 1:You are so sweet, I love you so much. You're making me laugh harder than I have laughed in a while.
Speaker 2:Follow the fro. Follow the fro, you know, like Lucky Charms, like follow the rainbow.
Speaker 1:You're awesome. You have such life in you. I can feel God's presence on you. You love him so much. I can feel it radiating through the screen right now. I can tell that he has brought you from an extremely dark place where Satan meant to keep you, and you have pulled through. You have clawed your way out of that pit and you have taken God's hand and he has lifted you up and healed you and you are being a powerhouse to help others. And even through making jokes and laughing about it.
Speaker 1:I mean, you either laugh or you cry and you stay sad. And who wants to stay sad? That's not what we're supposed to be filled with. We're supposed to be filled with joy. You're not going. Yay, I had all this stuff happen to me. Yay, I was a sex addicted person. But you're going. I see where I was wrong. I don't know what my problem was and you can laugh about certain parts to be like what was I thinking? But you remember your Savior and because of that you have been healed and set free and that is very encouraging. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:I wanted to do this because it's not for me right. It's literally being the hands and feet of Jesus. And so when I think about all the things that I've gone through and it was terrible, some of the experiences were just absolutely terrible I realized that it was designed to help me have empathy and compassion that otherwise wouldn't like, they wouldn't find, and so a lot of people are looking for that spot, that place where you're feeling safe and understood and not judged. Because how can I judge anyone? Yeah, after some of the stuff I've done, yeah, I can't.
Speaker 2:I was talking with mine a years ago and she was telling me that she had six abortions. One of them she induced, where she pounded her stomach purposely to induce a miscarriage, and I've never had an abortion, yeah, but I realized in that moment that the fact that she was actually feeling contrite about it and feeling I've never even told anyone, even the last one, what I did to myself I was like, wow, how many more people would come to Christ if they found people who didn't snap back and say some judgmental comment in that moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. Especially in that kind of a situation, the last thing she needs to hear is what she did was wrong. Clearly she knows, she feels, that, she understands. She doesn't need you to double down and jump on her back and pound her into the ground or like what we do with dogs, where we rub their noses in their little messes. You can't do that to people. You have to treat them with grace and mercy. That you're expecting to get from God and it's something that I have definitely been working harder on is understanding the whole aspect of grace and mercy, and for what I have been shown, I need to also be willing to give it to people too.
Speaker 1:So I am trying not to be as snarky with some people as I have in the past and understand their story. I don't know it. Why am I going to judge, especially those who don't claim to be Christians? If they're not Christians, why am I going to hold them to Christian values? They're not going to align with those. Why would they? They're not Christian people. So that's a mindset change that we all need to have, and to understand that we're not better than someone else just because we're not in their situation. Remember where you came from and what God pulled you out of, and then go help somebody else who might be in that same situation.
Speaker 2:That's so true and we live in a society that wants to make things feelings based. Feelings based my truth, your truth, everybody's truth, the dog's truth. And I mean, look, we don't ignore feelings, but we dignify them for what they are. We also care about other people's feelings, but we don't judge reality based on feelings. You can press this idea further and say are your feelings lying to you right now? That allows other people to express their emotion while still understanding that it may not be pointing them towards truth.
Speaker 1:That's wise. Yeah, that's definitely a good tool to help people step back from their emotions, because sometimes they can feel real. They can feel very difficult to process and sometimes you just need to take a step back and find out. Is this really the way that it is, or am I just having a moment? I've had plenty of those times where I'm like, wait, this must just be a moment. Well, thank you so much, denise, for coming on. This has been an awesome conversation.
Speaker 1:You are a very bright, shining light in the dark world that we are in now and a beacon of hope for those who are struggling in certain sins or who have been through what you have been through, and I thank you so much for every bit of work that you are doing for the glory of God. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you, Anna, for having me. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, leave a review for the podcast wherever you are listening or click the link in the show notes. If you have feedback for me, use the leave a message or voicemail links also in the show notes. You can check out my website honestchristianconversationscom to leave a review or feedback as well. Join the community and become part of something bigger than yourself. Lastly, sign up for the mailing list and get the free seven-day devotional as a thank you gift. Once again, thanks for listening. I look forward to our next conversation.
