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Super Sex
Supersex was a podcast exploring sexuality, relationships, and sex education that ran from July 2024 to December 2025.
The show was created during an earlier stage of my professional journey as I developed my work as a sexologist, educator, and communicator. Through conversations with guests and discussions on a wide range of topics, Supersex aimed to make sexuality education more accessible, practical, and relevant to everyday life.
As my work has evolved, so too has the focus of the conversations I want to have.
In 2026, Supersex will be re-launched as The Jordan Walker Show.
The new show will explore relationships, sexuality, human behaviour, education, masculinity, digital culture, and the challenges facing young people and adults in the modern world. Drawing on research, professional experience, and conversations with leading experts, the show will focus on helping listeners better understand themselves, their relationships, and the people around them.
Thank you to everyone who listened, supported, appeared on, and contributed to Supersex.
This isn't the end of the conversation.
It's the next chapter.
Jordan
Super Sex
Unpacking Sexual Stereotypes and Cultural Influences
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🎙️ Is Sexual Shame Shaping Who You Really Are? Let’s Talk About It on Supersex! 🎙️
Ever wonder how society’s judgments can mess with your sexual identity and experiences? On this eye-opening episode of Supersex, we’re diving headfirst into the deep and often painful waters of sexual shame—especially in the LGBTQ+ community. 🌈
Sherman's getting real with us as he shares his personal journey through the stigmas of being a gay man. From the judgments around anal sex to the labels of "tops" and "bottoms," he’s laying it all out there. Meanwhile, Jordan’s here to offer a different perspective, showing us how anal sex is seen as a liberating act in straight relationships. The contrast? It’s more eye-opening than you might think!
Imagine being too scared to talk about your deepest desires because you’re worried about being judged or rejected. That’s the reality for so many people, and we’re not holding back on this one. From the pressure straight men feel to dominate in situations like "gay for pay," to the broader implications of shaming someone’s personal kinks, we’re shining a spotlight on the double standards that fuel sexual shame.
Cultural and religious influences play a big part in keeping these feelings alive, but there’s a way out. Brené Brown’s shame resilience theory is our guide to breaking free from these chains, helping us build empathy and connection instead of walls.
But we’re not just talking theory here—oh no! We’re bringing in practical advice, real-life stories, and a look at a 2003 study on gender differences in sexual behavior reporting. Whether you’re navigating the shift from a heterosexual to a gay identity, or dealing with the compounded shame young gay individuals face, we’ve got you covered.
This episode is all about embracing your true sexual self, ditching the guilt, and recognizing that your preferences are 100% valid. So tune in, let’s break down those barriers, and start living authentically!
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Sexual Shame in the LGBTQ+ Community
Speaker 1Hey to all the straights , gays and nays , welcome to Supersex , the podcast where we have conversations and share our perspectives on sexuality , sex and more .
Speaker 2I'm Sheldon and I'm Jordan , Two friends , one straight , one gay taking on all things sex , One straight one gay taking on all things sex Hi , episode 10 . Good morning . Good morning , how are you , mr Jordan ?
Speaker 1I'm good . I'm good , how are you ?
Speaker 2doing , I'm doing , yeah , I'm doing good .
Speaker 1I'm great .
Speaker 2Good . So this week , what are we talking about ? Shame , shame shame .
Speaker 1You're always going to be a singer , always going to be a singer .
Speaker 2You look , you've got to put it out there . So we're doing an episode on shame . What kind of shame are we doing ?
Speaker 1I think it's got to be sexual shame , of course it can't just be like regular shame .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's got to be be like regular shame . Yeah , it's got to be . Look , we got the end of the day .
Speaker 1This is a sex podcast , so I feel like it's got to be sexy shame .
Speaker 2There's got to be some sexy shame there all right .
Speaker 1I want to know when was the first time that you ever experienced that or thought about it in like a higher level sort of thinking ?
Speaker 2I think , you see , the thing is , I think it's a little bit different for as a gay man , because , like I reckon , as a gay man there's so many , you're filled with so much shame just in general , yeah , that when you get the sexual shame it's just like oh yeah , it's just another one , it's just a little bit to An extra little one to add on to the top .
Speaker 2I mean , I feel like it happens as a gay person , right , the whole thing is I'm going to get into this a bit later , but I'll just touch on it now . As a gay person , I feel like straight people , a lot of straight people , not usual and you're different .
Speaker 1I don't have shame .
Speaker 2You're the nice straight man , but all the other straight men out there , the bad ones , shame , I'm not . Shame , sorry . Gay sex is anal yep , and they see that as dirty bad . You don't do that , so that shame already . Just my sex in general from the . I see it from the straight perspective as shameful , okay , in general .
Speaker 1So do you bring a bit of that onto yourself , do you think ? Do you , of course , like acquire that shame from straight people ?
Speaker 2100 because , okay , we're going to talk about , I'm getting right straight into it . Fuck , if I not um , like tops and bottoms , right , yep . The top is always seen as assuming that this , the top , is the dominant one , that's the manly one . My favorite question that a straight person asks so which one's , which one's the girl in the relationship ? Bitch , it's a gay relationship . There are no fucking girls . But the the , the bottom , is seen as the feminine or the less than , because let's just call a spade a spade men see that act as being feminine .
Speaker 2Yeah , so then the dude that takes it is the girl is the girl and is less than so that's where all the fucking shame comes from ? And the problem is , is that , as a gay man , if you bottom , you kind of take on that . Oh well , as a bottom like I'm , I'm not going to tell people I'm a bottom yeah , especially not my straight friends , because then they're going to see me as it's negative , it it's bad . Oh , you're the bitch . You're the bitch of the relationship .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think it also brings into that question a gender role as well right , exactly . Men are supposed to be manly , whether they're straight or queer .
Speaker 2And there always has to be one manly one and one feminine one . There always has to be .
Speaker 1Of course , two manly men can't be attracted to each other . God heavens , what are ?
Speaker 2you thinking Well , that's what your people say . My people are messed up . The funny part is that the majority of the time not the majority , but you'll be surprised . You look at a couple and go , oh , the small feminine one . Definitely the majority , but you'll be surprised you look at a couple and go , oh , the small feminine one definitely a bottom . No , motherfucker , he's topping that big manly dude of his and that big manly dude , a big old bottom . There's anything wrong with being a bottom .
Speaker 1I'm not here to shame anybody hell , no , hell , no , and let's get into it though , though . What is sexual , shame , sexual ?
Speaker 2shame All right . So from a gay perspective , sexual shame it's so broad . It is so broad . I mean I feel like shame from a gay perspective is a lot I'm not going to say it's worse because I can't speak for straight people is a lot- . I'm not going to say it's worse because I can't speak for straight people , but I feel like with straight shame it comes from more of like , let's say , kinks or things like that , right . Whereas my shame comes from just me having sex .
Speaker 1Which is sort of strange , right , because let's bring it back to the anal thing . Yes , anal thing , yes , as a queer man . Anal sex is a very taboo thing and it's like , well , I'm feeling shame because of that . Yeah , as a heterosexual , it's like you do anal . Oh fuck . Yeah , celebrate , you're a liberated person . Oh shit , go you .
Speaker 2You're your missus lets you do annual .
Speaker 1Oh , that's amazing whoa , she's really liberated . You're really liberated . It's that forbidden thing that you do annual . Oh , that's amazing . Whoa , she's really liberated . You're really liberated . It's that forbidden thing that you do .
Speaker 2Yeah , good , high five .
Speaker 1It's very , very strange the way that heterosexual and homosexual are experiencing that exact same act .
Speaker 2But completely differently .
Speaker 1In a different way .
Speaker 2Completely differently .
Speaker 1But flip it the other side , though . Pegging it's the same thing , because this is the thing .
Speaker 2Men see as a man , if you take it , yeah .
Speaker 1Nah , it's seen to be feminizing .
Speaker 2Yes , I mean , how many times right will you see a video where someone goes oh , what's your ? How much you take for for not being gay but to sleep with a dude ? How much would it be ?
Speaker 1depends who it is if it's dave grohl I don't even know , probably pay I don't even know who that is what they sing her to foo fighters oh yeah , that's right god , you earn that gay card real good shut up ,
Shame and Sexual Stereotypes
Speaker 1but it's .
Speaker 2The thing is that as a man , you can ask a straight man oh , how much would you take for you know , gay for pay .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And the first thing they will say is okay , whatever their number is . And then , oh , but I have to be the top . Yeah , because you can't take it , because that's a feminine thing , that's a gay thing , it's not a feminine thing that's a , that's a gay thing .
Speaker 1That's a , it's a , not a man thing . Yeah , I'd go gay for girl bottom top side .
Speaker 2Whatever , I need to google this person and see what they look like listen , he's not an attractive guy , but he's my guy .
Speaker 1You leave him alone okay , fine , yeah , okay , he's your guy , you have he might be married with kids and like turn the world , but I'm waiting , sorry . So are you Shit ?
Speaker 2That's a totally different episode , all right .
Speaker 1So sexual shame , from what I understand it to be , is , it's when we believe that something is so wrong that our friends , partners , society is going to reject us . Yes , for okay , correct . It doesn't necessarily mean that we believe that the sex that we're having is bad , but it's rather that we believe that there's something wrong with our sexual selves for wanting that particular thing . Correct ?
Speaker 2so if you , for example , if you're a person that likes armpits and your friend , every episode judges you for it , like that's , you know what I hope ? I hope you're learning from this experience , children , today , because I never shamed you for your arm you know what I feel like you did in your actions and in your body language and your little fucking comments don't know what you're talking about don't be showing me those armpits , my friend .
Speaker 2But , yeah , this is , that's okay , this is how I see it . You tell me , as from a straight perspective , yeah , I see sexual shame for straight people as , when you are into certain kinks and fetishes , yeah , that you might , for example , not want to share those things with other people because fear of judgment , fear of rejection , people are going to see you in a different light . Oh , you like , uh , armpits , what the fuck ?
Speaker 1that's weird yeah , well it's . It's almost like the photos that we posted this week from the Hanky's toys .
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1That green one . I called him the Hulk . The Hulk , I think it's technically the Goliath from Hanky's toys .
Speaker 2I'm sure they can't call it Hulk , because you know Marvel . You can't Marvel .
Speaker 1I'm a Marvel executive just knocking on a door . Excuse me , why is the Hulk's ?
Speaker 2dick out here on Mr Hengry's website .
Speaker 1That's a moneymaker right now . Absolutely , where was I going ? Yeah , but the amount of comments that I've received from friends and other people around a lot of people on Insta as well is like whoa , what the fuck ? Who the fuck ?
Speaker 2uses that , who uses that ? And then questioning is that actually a thing ? And why does everyone question oh , it should have been taking that home . I mean , come on , people like , as fucking it's mine , it's jordan's people , it's jordan's it's the reason why I walked into the studio a bit cross-legged today little cowboy , cowboy baby .
Speaker 2But yeah , this is true , like all the comments from there , yeah , have been . I'm not going to say negative , but it is has an undertone of oh yeah , is that a real thing ? Who the hell is going to ? Okay , granted , I thought the same thing , but that's that's whole thing of shame . So if you are into that and you read comments , for example , or you see that post and you see people bagging it out or going , who the hell would ever use that ? And you're the person that would .
Speaker 1Shame , so much shame right .
Speaker 2So much shame .
Speaker 1Because , like you've just said , you sort of accept other people's opinions in your construct of your sexual self . Yes , all right , but yeah , like the amount of comments that I've got . Oh , the person that uses that must be such a slut . They must be so loose , they must be this , they must be that , yeah , and I'm just sitting there the whole time going . Firstly , you need to listen to the episode and you will learn something . You've totally learned it . But secondly , no , they're , they're all stereotypes exactly , and that shame that's them putting their beliefs and beliefs whether the thing is , who cares ?
Speaker 1What you're not into .
Speaker 2we've said this so many times don't judge someone else's young Yep Just because you're not into it . Don't judge someone else for being into it . Do you know what really ?
Speaker 1grinds my gears . Go on , tell us People will sit there . Straight people will sit there and go . Being gay is so gross . Yep , how the fuck could somebody do that ? And I'm like dude . You stuck your dick in your wife's ass last night . You did the exact same thing , but it's different because it's a woman's ass , and I also know that you're into a , b , c and d exactly , and I know my queer friends are not into that exactly . They live far more vanilla life than you do . So who , what the fuck and who are you to say what goes on in somebody else's bedroom Exactly ?
Speaker 2But also , most importantly , my takeaway always for anything , especially something like shame and shaming someone for what they like , kings , whether it be kings or being gay or queer , whatever the case may be , how does it affect you ? It doesn't what I do in my bedroom if I take hulk home and I'm having a good old time , unless I'm sending you pictures and be like what do you think about this ? Look what I did , yay me . And even then you high five me and you say , good boy , but it has nothing to do with you .
Speaker 1No , it doesn't , or anybody else it doesn't affect you in any way , listen , if you'd taken Hulk home right now , I'd be pretty pissed off , because he's currently holding up the camera .
Speaker 2And you think we're joking , but we're not .
Speaker 1He's actually holding up the camera . Strongest dick in the world .
Speaker 2You know what ?
Speaker 1At least he needs to stay angry though an angry dick's a good dick , right , it's like those spitting cobras sometimes angry is a good dick .
Speaker 2Sometimes it's not there . You know what that's ?
Speaker 1that's another episode , all together all right , so I think I've got to share this before we go any deeper as well .
Speaker 2Okay , that's what he said . Sorry , sorry , keep going , I'm sorry I can't move you anymore I just can't .
Speaker 1So , as we've discussed previously , I lived or grew up in a pretty liberal sort of household , right , right , and the only real sort of thing around shame that I ever got was my super conservative grandma sitting there going , oh , look at a dress that girls were and she's a bit of a slapper , or something like that , not this , like whatever .
Speaker 1So like it didn't really resonate with me , but I won an award to go to japan , an architecture award to go to japan , and the guy who was driving us around there , he was pointing out some of the um , let's call it more risque places , right , and we drove past a couple of sex hotels and that started a whole conversation around sex and what he actually told me is that in japan , the girls will say no , no , no , because they like , instead of yes , yes , yes , yeah , because they don't want to seem too promiscuous , right , because there is so much cultural shame placed on these people , yeah , yeah . And I was just sitting there going , holy fuck , that's a minefield for consent first up , right , because there is so much cultural shame placed on these people .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , yeah . And I was just sitting there going holy fuck , that's a minefield for consent first up . I can imagine having sex with somebody and they're going , no , no , no .
Speaker 2And you're like what Do I stop ? Do I start ? But you jumped on me and you're riding me and you're still saying no , no , no . Why are you pulling me in for a kiss and saying no ?
Speaker 1no , but like that was the first pivotal moment for me that I went damn , shame is a really big fucking thing . Oh yeah , but it's very interesting the way that shame plays out and how it plays out , and why it plays out as well , and how it affects people and how
Cultural Influences on Shame
Speaker 1it affects people . So I think what I want to do is I want to sort of bring out this idea of shame resilience theory . It was put out by Brene Brown . You heard of her . No , no , she's like this wicked ass author and like researcher , but anyway , she basically turned around and said that the opposite of shame is empathy .
Speaker 2Of course that makes sense . The opposite of shame is empathy .
Speaker 1Okay , cool , and that empathy should come from somebody who you trust , of course , right , right . But the things that can heal shame are connection , power and freedom .
Speaker 2So connection with the people in relationships , connection with general society , right , the power to feel liberated enough to do whatever you want To not feel shame , or to not feel shame In whatever it is that you felt shame about .
Speaker 1Yeah , right . And then talking about shame gives a person a sense of control yes , it does and that control gives you the strength to overcome feelings and move forward from shame .
Speaker 2So I think that's a really good way to preface what we're going , what we're going through , what we're going to go into .
Speaker 1All right , let's talk about what in the fuck causes shame .
Speaker 2Oh shit , we're going to be here for hours .
Speaker 1No , I think we've got about 45 minutes left , so you better hurry up Enough here .
Speaker 2Personal experience , like while you're talking , I'm just thinking now . I'm like , while you're talking , I'm just thinking now I'm like you know what I think a huge thing also comes from like culture .
Speaker 2Yeah , culturally , there's certain like okay , for example , I'll give perfect example what we're doing right now . For me , I'm not gonna lie , this brought up a little bit of shame because it's a podcast about sex . People are going to judge me , like , if my family listens to this , are they going to judge me for talking about sex ? Because culturally , this is not something you do . You don't talk . Sex is not a thing . That it's not . Like I said to you , you had a very liberal upbringing when it comes to sex . I didn't , because that's that's just as south africans you don't talk about sex . Yeah , it's not . It's like oh , no , no , no , that happens in your bedroom with your husband or your wife and that's it . You don't talk about sex . Or maybe the ladies when they get together , they get there . You know they will sit there and spill the tea . Girls are always fucking talking about sex .
Speaker 1Exactly we know they are girls . Always think that guys , it's , that's all we talk about and it's the exact opposite . It's the exact opposite .
Speaker 2I know I'm a gay man with mostly female friends .
Speaker 2Trust me , I know those bitches are like ravenous don't worry , girls won't give away your secrets , but much , but , yeah , that's the thing is like starting this podcast , there was that in the back of my mind , that a little bit of shame . That was like , oh , hey , shit , oh , am I gonna be judged for this ? Touchy subjects , yeah , touchy subjects , my , you know stories about my sexual experiences . Can I tell them ? Oh , no , shit , it's gonna be , they're gonna judge me . And then at some point I was like you know , what do I care ?
Speaker 1I think it's that's and that's a great way to sort of approach it . Yeah , do you really care what ? What does another person's opinions have a direction on your life ?
Speaker 2honestly , I don't give a shit about most things , like I don't care about anyone's opinion on anything about my life . That's right Generally . Why would I care about this ? At the end of the day do I love my family and friends Absolutely , but at the end of the day , if you hey , it's so simple . If you don't like it , just turn it off .
Speaker 1Hell yeah , you know what I mean .
Speaker 2Like it is what it is to start each episode , if I know what it's going , if I'm going to be telling bad stories .
Speaker 1I'm like please don't listen to this one . You know , I , when we put the anal episode out , I've been putting things on insta , um , not on instagram . I've been putting things on instagram but facebook , right , started putting like , made a community group on facebook . The coming out episode hammered that , you know , pushed it , pushed it , pushed it , pushed it the anal episode . Even with my super liberal upbringing , I was like you know what ? I'm just going to quietly post it there . I'm not going to share it to my personal stories because , like you know , aunties and this , it's anal .
Speaker 2We don't do it . Yeah , it's bad .
Speaker 1So even for me there was that little bit of I don't want to call it shame , but of course it's a shame it's 100% shame You're not 100% honest about and forthcoming with it , right .
Speaker 2Absolutely , it's 100% shame .
Speaker 1Yeah , the societal and cultural things are really , really , really messed up . I think 100% , really , really , really messed up . I think a hundred percent . And we , we , we tend to sort of think that western culture we're a lot more liberal , but we're not . No , we're not like we still have this whole purity culture , shit that's going on , absolutely yeah it's , and that all comes from religious backgrounds backgrounds yep .
Speaker 2Religious backgrounds yep .
Speaker 1You know it comes from the whole gender .
Speaker 2Gender norms and what Gender norms ? And what's expected of Expected .
Speaker 1quote unquote of certain genders and roles . The other thing I found out this week I was doing a bit of research and I was reading in a paper . This week I was doing a bit of research and I was reading in a paper . Do you know that ? This whole thing about black guys have massive dicks yes , he's like yes , I do know this .
Speaker 1So this whole I don't know whether it's myth or not , but this whole thing about black guys having massive dicks that was originally done in the slave era as a way to publicly shame and ridicule and keep black people suppressed . So the idea behind it was that they had a hypersexuality . Okay , and a hypersexuality was physically represented with by larger dicks , Larger dicks and breasts and asses and stuff like that . Yes , and hypersexuality if you can't control it , you're more animal than you are human .
Speaker 2Right , you have animalistic tendencies and yes , that's right .
Speaker 1So this is where that whole myth of guy black guys having huge dicks comes from . I mean slavia as a way to shame honest .
Speaker 2There have been surveys done all over the world and , okay , there are countries in africa where the average size penis is seven inches yeah , but it's not like no on anaconda right but average seven inches , yeah , think about seven inches . I mean , that is and that's the average . So then think about the ones that are above average , holy shit . So , yes , there is some truth , but at the end of the day , not every black man has a big dick no , that's right .
Speaker 1Yeah , like I've , I've talked to heaps of girls that have been with dark eyes and they've been like , oh , yeah , yeah some have average .
Speaker 2The myth isn't right . Have look to be fair . I've said this , I've already said this to you before the ginger is the best one .
Speaker 1No , not the gingers , the um oh I just triggered something , you did trigger something .
Speaker 2That the skinny white boys . Yeah , skinny , you assume small .
Speaker 1It's just because they're so small , it just looks bigger .
Speaker 2No , no , no , no , it actually is I promise you Skinny white boys are packing , I'm going to have to lose some weight . I don't think it works like that .
Speaker 1No-transcript you know you gain an inch , really , yeah , fuck I have to go it doesn't match any craig shit now . I'll see you later . I'm going down to do some crossfit don't eat for the next few weeks I can't use it . Hey , I'm so weak and degraded that I can't use it . It's a big one .
Speaker 2Look , we digress , we do All right .
Speaker 1So I think shame comes from traumatic sexual experiences . A hundred percent , that's for sure . Yes , things that happen without consent , you know , being touched , being in situations that are just not safe yes , creates trauma . Yes , creates shame . In touch being in situations that are just not safe yes , creates trauma . Yes , creates shame because a lot of the people who are in those situations are like fuck , what did I do ? I did something wrong to call that on . Yes , right , that's my fault .
Speaker 2Yeah , and so then it causes shame around that . Oh , is it because I was too flirty , for example ? I wear the wrong clothes and I'm not gonna do that anymore .
Speaker 1I have shame around yeah , I'm gonna go from wearing a mid thigh mini skirt to wearing mid calf a petticoat but that's , that's what shame does , right . It basically modifies your behaviors so that you can stop appearing a certain way , so that you're not inviting that sexual input that you don't want , right , which is not necessarily a healthy thing . It's not .
Speaker 2It's definitely not Right .
Speaker 1Like no , I won't even go there . But so there's that . So traumatic sexual experience , right . So there's that . So traumatic sexual experience , right . There's physical and emotional abuse that can build up how we are perceived . So if we get mistreated sexually , that is going to have an impact on our sexuality . It's going to come out as shame . Yes , you know . So like like I don't know , if group of boys are hanging around pulls the pants down of one lad , you know , and ha ha , look at your cock yeah you know , suddenly that guy's like what's wrong with my cock you ?
Speaker 2know exactly I thought , I thought , I thought I was fine I got an issue , you know .
Speaker 1So then that comes as a shame . But what physical and emotional abuse does is ? It erodes safety , yes , it erodes your confidence and erodes yourself a sense of self , and they are vital sort of ingredients for healthy sexuality .
Speaker 2And the problem is with sexual shame it bleeds into everything else . It bleeds into shame within your life . So , for example , your situation what's wrong with my dick ? Am I good enough that bleeds into way more other things that take away from from sexual shame and become this whole other big monster , and then you lose confidence in yourself . I'm not normal . My dick's more . Am I worthless and it can snowball .
Speaker 1It goes , yeah , and it just gets worse and worse and worse , and the person then stops talking yes and stops sort of asking questions and being curious I'm not going to say publicly but with the people that they trust , which means , then , that every day that goes on that they're dealing with these issues , it gets worse and worse and worse for them . Yes , I think the other thing that I know to be true is that in childhood , a lot of the messages that we get in childhood are a shame . Like boys especially , caught masturbating .
Speaker 1Don't fucking do that . I can't believe that you're doing that . That's bad . That's bad .
Speaker 2You don't touch yourself .
Speaker 1It feels great . What's wrong about this , don't do that . Yeah , and that message creates it's an indelible mark yeah , and it creates this horrible fucking thing for this guy going forward .
Speaker 2You don't touch yourself . What are you doing ? You don't touch yourself .
Speaker 1And heaven forbid if a girl got caught masturbating oh , my goodness , for most . Can you imagine what would happen ?
Speaker 2Actually , I've never thought about that , but that's true . That is 10 times . It would be worse .
Speaker 1Guys are supposed to be wankers .
Speaker 2Yeah , because the thing is at the end of the day , you know you've got this extra bit there . I mean , you know , as a guy , yep , your hand just automatically sometimes just goes there , sometimes just go . Is there just to ?
Speaker 1make sure it's still there . What do you mean ? Sometimes it stays there . Ncis is on Netflix and it's like whoop , straight down . Where's your hand right now ?
Speaker 2Above the table Hands above the table . Hands on the table , please . But no , it's true Like men I feel so sorry for women .
Speaker 1Sometimes they just get so bad , they cop it , they cop it a lot and it comes back to the whole gender roles , right yeah ?
Speaker 2We expect men to be sexual , hypersexual , and women are not allowed to be sexual .
Speaker 1They're supposed to be pure .
Speaker 2You have to be pure , you have to be , you know , holier than thou virgin mary and all that , all that shit but , no , women have a sexual appetite , just like everybody else so let's get into that segue that's a great segue for
The Shame of Sexual Behavior
Speaker 2.
Speaker 1So , before we got on air , I shared with sherman this um research study that I came across , and let me just pull it up . Who's it by ? It was by Alexander and Fisher in 2003 . And this is all about shame , all about shame . So , basically , what they did is they got a group of guys and a group of girls and they gave them three different rooms to be in . Okay so , and what they did is they basically asked them how many people have you slept with ? Dangerous question . Dangerous question .
Speaker 2I hate that question .
Speaker 1They put the girls in an open room with an open door and told them that somebody is going to see their answer . On average , the girls reported that they had about two and a half , maybe 2.6 sexual partners .
Speaker 2That sounds okay .
Speaker 1So open door said they're going to be seen , they're going to be seen . The guys were like a 3.7 . Because dudes , bro , because dudes . It's like yeah , fuck , yeah , yeah , I'll sleep a 3.7 . Because dudes , bro , because dudes . It's like yeah , fuck , yeah , yeah , I'll sleep with chicks . Yeah . The girls are like , oh no , I don't really want to sleep with that many people . Okay , right Now . They then taken them into another room and they asked behind a closed door and promised anonymity . Okay , the girls then came in at about 3.3 .
Speaker 2So the idea that no one's going to be judging me . Yeah , I can be honest now and say , actually this is how many dudes I've been with .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's right . So the girls came in at about 3.3 . The guys went down slightly Because , look , it's like oh , actually I haven't banged that's right .
Speaker 2So the girls came in at about 3.3 . The guys went down slightly Because , look , it's like oh , actually I haven't banged that many girls , but this always happens . How many say with 20 ? That's right .
Speaker 1How many of you say with two ? It's like the fish that you go out when you catch fishing , you know . Mm-hmm , mm-hmm , mm-hmm you tell your friends it's like a meter and a half long , but actually it's just clever camera angles , all right . So then , in the third part of this study , what they did is they closed the door and hooked the participants up to a polygraph machine .
Speaker 2Motherfuckers can't lie .
Speaker 1So they cannot lie . So they cannot lie . The girls came in with 4.4 sexual partners , while the guys only went up to about 3.9 .
Speaker 2So the takeaway here is ladies , be lying about their body count .
Speaker 1Ladies have been lying about their body count , but the thing is there is so much social stigma and sexual shame around a female sleeping around .
Speaker 2Of course , because you think about it in any situation . If you I guarantee every person listening to this has heard the words oh , she's a slut , because she's been , you know she's with everybody , yeah , but why didn't you say it about the dude that your own boyfriend , who's been with every person in this place that we know of ? That's cool , Because if boys do it , they're seen as even Casanova . Oh , he's a man , he's a ladies man . Oh , you know , you can see it Even as a kid . You go oh , look how cute he is . Oh , yeah , he loves the ladies he is . Oh , yeah , he loves the ladies . It's seen as a you condition from a young age to believe that men liking lots of women is . It's a good thing , it's supposed to be like that . But the minute a female shows any interest in you know , liking more than one male or wanting more than one , immediately slut .
Speaker 1And that's a societal thing , but it's also a biological thing .
Speaker 2Okay , go on . Why ? Please explain Okay .
Speaker 1A guy . Billions of sperm Every single day . Yes , Right .
Speaker 2Every single day . We're Sorry .
Speaker 1Are we going into the anatomy of it ? I don't know . I think you're going somewhere dirtier than I was thinking .
Speaker 2Oh God .
Speaker 1Here we go All right . So guys have these billions of sperm . But if you're the alpha male , historically you know this is like when we were struggling to cement our place as a species . As the alpha male , you were to pass on your seed as much as possible . Correct , that's the way that male bodies and hormones work . We are Totally understand that .
Speaker 2We're designed we're designed to procreate , To procreate right .
Speaker 1Yes , whereas a female body is designed to find the best mate and raise that child and look after that child . It's not about getting as many different . It's about finding the best Quality over quantity , whereas guys are more quantity .
Speaker 2Quantity over quality Right .
Speaker 1So there is that biological factor correct . But , and while that still does have like a little bit of a hold for a lot of people , it's not everyone it's . It's not everybody correct and it's not necessarily a true thing .
Speaker 2Now , but also let me think about it in this century the opposite , to be the guys Not every guy is out there wanting to bang 20 , 30 girls . There's guys out there that are happy to say they've only been with one and that's all they need Totally , or they might not be that sexual .
Speaker 1Totally , totally it's . So this is a bit of a random thing , but my wife and I went out to a club a few months back .
Speaker 2You went clubbing , we went clubbing yes , old people do that as well , oh my days .
Speaker 1I'm so impressed . Nearly broke my hip on the dance floor , but it's okay . But we got approached by swingers .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1And we politely declined .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1But basically on cab ride home , my wife was like you know , is that something that you'd ever want to do ? And I'm like , well , I've actually got no interest in sleeping with another woman .
Speaker 2Anybody else but you yeah .
Speaker 1Right , I'm very , very happy with you and I don't want to go out and sow my seeds with anybody else . She's like yeah , but most guys are like that and I'm like cool , not me , it's not what I'm into . But yes , there are people out there .
Speaker 2They're doing that , you know it's not saying most guys , but absolutely there are a lot of males out there that if their partners were like , hey , are you absolutely there ?
Speaker 1would be .
Speaker 2They wouldn't be able to . The uber would be turned straight around and gone right back .
Speaker 1Oh , it's , it's very true , and but it's , there's that biological urge for a lot of people , sure , the other thing that we've got to talk about is religion , shame and religion . Oh okay , this is going to be interesting . This has been around since the dawn of time .
Speaker 2Well dawn of religion actually .
Speaker 1But it's just such a horrendous thing that has been put on people . Yes , you know like it's a sin to masturbate , it's a sin to have sex if the idea is not going to be to procreate . You know , like 1940s , 50s America , and even before then , it was a full-on sin to have sex within your marriage without the intent to procreate .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1And there's actually been groups in America that have been set up to educate people about how much of a sin it is to do that right , and they're all religiously backed . But essentially what that comes from is the fact that the church was the head of state for the whole world . Yeah , and it was their job to try to control people and build population , and what they didn't want people doing is shagging .
Speaker 2Without the end result of procreation .
Speaker 1End result of procreation , because the more people there are , the more people go to church . The more people go to church , the more they pay their taxes , the more wealth the church gets , right . So that's where all that originally came from . A lot of people sit there and go oh , it's because it was written in the bible . Fuck , no like . Because the hebrews they changed . They changed that right . They actually said that it was okay to have sex within the confines of your marriage and you know you should be celebrated and this and that right . But when religion itself got a hold of this and realized that they can monetize shit , bang . Okay , that's where all of that originally started and it's just been perpetuated through Through the years and they've linked it back to the Bible and they've linked it back to different testaments and this .
Speaker 2Either way , my thing is this regardless of where it came from or how it started , touching yourself Is fun .
Speaker 1And healthy .
Speaker 2Is healthy . That's where I was going . I wasn't going with fun , I was going with healthy . But it's also fun , it is healthy and I don't care what anyone says . That is what I believe .
Speaker 1There are studies out there to show that , like it reduces cancer if you put , if you put a I don't know a kid that's just coming into puberty .
Speaker 2You know puberty and they know nothing about sex . They haven't been told about . They live in fucking , I don't know , in a mountain , somewhere , in wherever there will be a . There will be a time that kid's hand will go down there and figure out because genetically it's in there of course it is .
Speaker 2It's not something they've been taught from outside influences , it's just , I'm sure , as a young kid , as you told us your story , but before you told us your story of your dad giving you the magazine , I'm sure that you somehow your haven't found your dick and you started playing and you figure the thing is , no one tells you what to do , you just kind of figure it out . How explain to me ? You explore and it's , but it is in your it's , within it's it's a natural thing , like natural .
Speaker 1I found my boy the other day doing it . He's three and we got him out in the shower . And he's three , and we got him out the shower and he's covered in his towel and next thing , like I noticed his hand was moving up and down his penis and I was like what's happening , mate ? He goes oh , I'm touching my penis . He's like it's hard and I'm like , yeah it does get hard .
Speaker 1That's what happens sometimes it feels nice . He goes yeah , dad , it feels nice and I'm like okay , cool , there's a time and place that we can do that , yeah , and that's that's . But it's okay to to touch yeah but that's the way that we're raising him .
Speaker 2But even as a three-year-old he's already starting to explore but that's exactly my point is that it's not something that you are taught by outside influences or you know bad things and when it comes to religion or whatever , at the end of the day it's in , it's part of us . It totally is . You figure it out by something . Feels good , you do it If you like . I'll drink this , but this thing of water I don't like it . I'll drink some juice . Ooh , that tastes nice . I'm going to drink that . Weird in my mind Just goes so dirty , just goes wet as soon as I say that .
Speaker 1It's the juice , it's the juice .
Speaker 2But yeah , you know , you just figure things out , yeah .
Speaker 1So , yes , the other thing as well , I think , and we'll move on to the next part . But being openly judged causes shame . Have you ever sat there or been in a situation where you've started talking about some form of sexy thing that you're into , or somebody else has brought it up and someone's gone ? Ooh , uh-uh , gross .
Speaker 2Come on , you have to know me . I'm the person that tells all these stories that I really shouldn't tell and for the majority of the time , my friends were like oh my God , tell us more and then you will see . You know , you read the room and you see that one person there going , just their face , like it's the lip smell , it's like is that really what you do ? Oh my gosh , why are you talking about this ? And you're like bro , it's a part of life . And my response always well , I'll just keep going . You don't like it . There's a door .
Speaker 1Put your fingers in your ears , put your fingers in your ears . You don't hear it .
Speaker 2Because , at the end of the day , this is what I like . I like it . Don't yuck my yum don't yuck my yum .
Speaker 1If I like armpits , it is what it is nice , hairy ones too . I still can't believe it .
Speaker 2Armpits are a thing for you look , I can't believe it either , because it's something I just found out . I love it , I love it . But yeah , look , there have been situations where I've been with friends or in a situation where there's people around and we might be talking about sexual stuff . And I've been with friends or in a situation where there's people around and we might be talking about sexual stuff and I come out with , oh well , you know , this is what happened to me , or this is what I like , or this is what a dude did , and they're like you . You , you will see , there will always be a person that you know the little stank face is , yeah , ew , that's something you like . And then , even though I'm confident in who I am , I might go back and be like oh why , would they say that .
Speaker 1Take an itty bitty bit of that , An itty bitty piece of it's like is it ?
Speaker 2But is it weird yeah .
Speaker 1Is it a little bit gross , but it feels so good , yeah , fuck it , I'm going to keep on going , you , it feels so good .
Speaker 2Yeah , fuck it , I'm going to keep on going , you know what Fuck it ?
Speaker 1Let me do it again .
Speaker 1You know , I've only ever been in a situation where everybody in the room has gone ooh , all at the same time , and that was
Navigating Sexual Shame and Identity
Speaker 1can you remember that ? Two girls , one cup . Yes , a guy brought that out at a bar and was like , oh , came across this thing , it's really hot , check it out and played the video . It's really hot . Yeah , this guy was totally into it . And then , as soon as we all went , oh , he literally packed up his phone and retreated into the corner . It was like Homer Simpson going back into the bushes Right .
Speaker 1But pretty much everyone in the room went . Ooh no .
Speaker 2That ain't hot .
Speaker 1That ain't hot . And this dude was like , oh fuck , what have I done ? But I can just imagine that in that particular moment we all poured so much shame on this guy .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , like see this is poured so much shame on this guy . Yeah , yeah , like see . This is the thing . It's really hard . The thing is it's hard when you're not into something or you find something a bit gross , like that video . And the problem is sometimes when the majority of society says something is taboo or decides that that's the one thing we're going to say is taboo and we don't . We don't do that . Yeah , how do you , how do you get away from that ?
Speaker 1you can't you can't , because we inherently like to put ourselves in boxes .
Speaker 2Yes , we like to associate ourselves with clicks , you know , to feel to , you want , you want yourself to have a community and feel it's wanted because it's part of your identity yes , right , like when you say identity , I identify as a father , a surfer , an educator yep , you know podcaster .
Speaker 1Now you identify as queer .
Speaker 2What do I identify as jordan queer man ?
Speaker 1yeah , top gear enthusiast gin drinker .
Speaker 2Gin drinker . Whiskey lover . Whiskey lover see , but we like to identify with certain things and that , because it brings you together , gives you a sense of community and you're not alone .
Speaker 1That's right , yeah , and we also like to identify with sexuality . Yes , kinksters do it . You know there are certain people into BDSM and you know fetishes and like what is it ? Fairies . Like you've got a whole community of fairies . Exactly , a whole community of fairies . They're so cute , are fairies ?
Speaker 2exactly a whole community of fairies . They're so cute , are they ? I think they're so cute . Look , I'm not into it , but good for them . But like I just love , I love seeing them , like no , so that's amazing .
Speaker 1I've never actually seen one out and about . I don't think you actually do see fairies out and about .
Speaker 2No , I don't think so I can't remember where I saw , where I saw a fair . Maybe it was like , I don't know , maybe it was when I went to to Sydney for a Mardi Gras or something . Of course it fucking happened , but it was like , oh , that's like cool , all right , you do you .
Speaker 1That's cool . It's really good to see people when they come out like that . Yes it is . It's really good because they obviously feel connected within their community enough that they're safe .
Speaker 2They're safe . They're safe , yes , but also that's a community . That it means sydney's a bit different .
Speaker 1No one judges you there that's right , that's it yeah , because everybody's into weird shit exactly you want to walk around in a pluto outfit ?
Speaker 2hey you , you do you boo high five .
Speaker 1No one bats an island I totally need to go to Sydney , Finally a place for me , Absolutely All right . So how does sexual shame manifest Like ? What does it look like ?
Speaker 2What are the effects of it over time , over time . See again all I can bring it back is to me , is that like okay , so just like backtracking , just a little bit , right , shame in general , so like for a young gay kid , right , you have shame in the language that your parents and people have around you because , for example , oh yeah , when you grow , up you have a girlfriend and a wife and that immediately , oh shit , I'm not supposed to have that .
Speaker 2And then there's that shame from hiding who . You are right More that grows , more that grows Eventually . When you get into a state of adolescence and you're getting into the part where you're exploring your body , that's when you start realizing oh shit , I'm different .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2I like different things . The shame starts with you Before anyone else gets to you . I really feel bad , for when I'm touching myself , I'm not thinking about the wife I might have , I'm thinking about the husband I might have , and it starts from there . So I feel like from a gay perspective . I think the shame starts from such a young age that by the time you're getting to your sexual prime you are filled with that much that like represent itself as like anxiety oh , 100 you have okay .
Speaker 2For example , like , let's just say , you want your your first sexual experience , my first sexual experience with a guy , the anxiety I felt around , not just the fact that obviously I'm gay , I'm gonna you know . Have fun with the dude . The fact that I'm gonna do the sexual act number one that I know is supposedly wrong , yeah too , I don't know what the fuck I'm doing . How did this work ? I didn't even know what tops and bottoms were at the time .
Speaker 1I was so fucking confused , figured that one out pretty quick , didn't you ? Oh yeah , I did . Oh yeah , well , you did , but yeah so there's that , the anxiety around sex .
Navigating Sexual Shame and Behavior
Speaker 1There's anxiety around and which which can cause other issues it sort of leads into what we just talked about as well . When you make that step , you were , you're almost transforming your identity from being I'm Sherman , heterosexual . Yes to , I am Sherman . I am now gay because I sleep with men . Yes , so does the anxiety about changing your identity , right , yes .
Speaker 1And then there's anxiety about once I change that identity . Will I be rejected for that by ? Because who am I ? Family , my friends , you know ? Am I even going to be good at this shit exactly ? I don't know what to do because I haven't been able to get educated on this shit , because there's fuck all around there .
Speaker 2And then also like guys , what do I do ? Uh , and then you hear because you hear that , for example , gay men are promiscuous , they , they , that's what they do , and it's like no that we need to remember that I was suppressed for so many years .
Speaker 2I'm a just a young little gay adolescent , even though I'm 23 years old , skipping through a field . Exactly . So I want to be there , being like , yeah , give me all the dicks , give me all the ass . And yeah , there's all this anxiety , there's all these emotions around trying to then figure out who I am , let alone the other anxieties that come with what I like , do I have fetishes ? All that kind of shit . So I feel like , from the gay perspective , the queer perspective , I can only speak from a gay perspective here , as a gay man . But from the gay perspective , you have so much shame , just in general to start off with , yeah , that when it comes to the sexual shame it is , it is so impacted from all of that shame that you've carried throughout your life that with it almost morphs into this .
Speaker 2everything becomes sexual because , like I was saying before , from the straight perspective , gay is all about sex . Yes , so then all your shame just gets put into this one box of sexual shame .
Speaker 1And that box is where , when it gets contained , that's going to lead to depression . Of course that's going to lead to depression .
Speaker 2Of course .
Speaker 1If you can't feel as though you can talk to people , if you're not safe , if you're not celebrated , if you can't connect with people about it , that leads to loneliness , depression .
Speaker 2Depression . I mean . That's why there's such a high rate of suicide . That's exactly what I was going to do with that Right . Suicide rates for gay and queer community are Exponentially higher exponentially higher than any other because of all of these shame , shame .
Speaker 1I hate the word . It's so fucked up when you think that our words , that we have especially as heteros , the words that we put out there , are absorbed by somebody else .
Speaker 2Don't even get me started .
Speaker 1And integrated within their sexual identity , which causes them so much shame that they become depressed and , if they are of that mindset , can potentially do self-harm . This is like a breadcrumb trail all the way back to whatever the fuck we say has a massive impact on people .
Speaker 2You have opened up a can of worms . Now I'm going to jump on my soapbox and have a little rant right now .
Speaker 1I'm just going to go outside .
Speaker 2I'm back in half hour . Look , this is the thing is right . I am such a big advocate for explaining to people about your words and what you say . Being a gay man , I've had this conversation with many , many people about the importance of your , your language , what you say to people you might not understand . For example , perfect example , the f , the f word , right ? Yeah , as a queer person , I don't obviously like the f word . It is a derogatory term used for gay people , the idea that people think it's still something that is okay to use , or oh no , it's cool , I'm just using it in this way , would you say ?
Speaker 2the n-word fuck no around 10 big black men and your excuse is oh , it's okay , it's fine , one of my best friends is black . You're still gonna get bashed , bro , or it's okay ? I didn't mean it like that . I'm just saying it because of this . At the end of the day , if someone says to you , hey , that's not okay , your language that you're using affects me in a certain kind of way that's negative and causes shame . Please don't use it . Just don't use it , because words are loaded .
Speaker 2Because words are loaded , because my thing is always this I might be okay , there's a . You know I'll be . I'll be fair . There's a few words for me that don't really hit as bad . The f word doesn't hit me as bad as other words do , but I know I understand that I'm not everyone feels the same way I do , so I'm going to educate everyone out there to say , hey , I might be not that badly affected by it , but someone else might have some serious issues around that word and you causing trauma every time you say it , because you don't know the shame that they feel .
Speaker 1Yeah , from that and that then comes back to , I'm going to say , resilience and what we talked about with that shame resilience theory , right , the people that are probably feeling that most are the people that are feeling isolated , yes , disconnected , yep , and disempowered .
Speaker 2And what does it lead to ? Just like we said , that could lead to so many different things in that person's life exactly , yeah , it's .
Speaker 1It's an absolute minefield from a hetero side of things , though shame it can result in arousal difficulties . Yes , yes , that makes sense . I'm into this thing . Can't talk to my partner about it . Suddenly I can't get it up .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1No , it can delay orgasms . It can mean that you can't get it up . It's because you're not really celebrating your true sexual self .
Speaker 2If you've got shame around something that you want to bring out , you might not be enjoying the sex the way you should be or you want to be .
Speaker 1that's right , okay , so it's not very arousing for you . Or let's say you had and a lot of guys go through this you have a night out where you had a bit too much to drink whiskey dick whiskey dick . Suddenly it gets into your brain oh fuck , I can't get it up . I can't get it up . I've got shame about getting it up now and that shame prevents your dick from getting up there's nothing wrong with the word more drinks oh it's .
Speaker 1It's crazy , but the other way that shame manifests , manifests itself , is problematic sexual behaviours . Example Sexual abuse , substance abuse , yep , so problematic sexual behaviours . So a person might , instead of pulling away , throw themselves into it . Right , far too deep for their capabilities . And this happens with , like , a lot of people who have had sexual assault . They sort of reclaim their sexuality by being over sexual , overtly sexual , and shagging everything that moves , and this is both guys and girls . Yes , but that's like a risky behavior , right , because they're just shagging whoever and they're not really sort of vetting them to make sure that they're a safe person , right . Right , it also gets into substance misuse and abuse .
Speaker 1People then start needing to drink or smoke or do something in order to get into that sexy zone , yeah , which , of course , is problematic because , like we talked about on the substance episode , it's all about consent . It's all about , like , when you are drunk , you tend to do things that you wouldn't necessarily want to do and you shouldn't do . So those two things basically go hand in hand , yeah , you know . So yeah , risky behavior is a real bad thing
Navigating Sexual Shame and Communication
Speaker 1. Um , I think as well , there's like some common signs that people with shame have .
Speaker 2Are there .
Speaker 1Yeah , okay , what are they ? All ? Right , an extreme discomfort with anything sexual , right , you bring up sex and you see the person is just like Cringing and recoiling in disgust . And you're literally just talking about a period , or you know a boob or something like that and it's . You can see this person .
Speaker 2Do you get a fight or flight response to it ? They totally do .
Speaker 1And I've seen young adults who've had so much sexual shame that they cannot sit through a workshop and be like without going oh fuck , that's gross and I'm like we're just talking about kissing now no it's it's gross . I can't do this . Like why ? Because it's it's gross , I don't want to talk about it . And you'll see them .
Speaker 1They'll literally like have all these bodily signs , they'll have a physical reaction to it and that then sort of leads on to I always get like my people in my workshops to , whenever it's discussing anatomy , like all right , the word penis on a big whiteboard or whatever , and I'll be like tell me all the names that you know for it , because they can not literally use the word penis .
Speaker 2I get that , I get that Right .
Speaker 1Which is so fucked up , and instead of using this like saying sex , they'll go oh , intimacy , but that's problematic , consent-wise . Yeah Right , I want to be intimate . I want to be intimate with you . What the fuck does that ?
Speaker 2mean Int in cuddling , so that one person thinks intimate is cuddling and watching a movie that's right and another person's intimacy might be . I'm gonna stick it in you fucking right .
Speaker 1But how do you know ? Because the person's so shamed out that they can't even use the correct terminology correct with their partners , correct ?
Speaker 2so this way , I mean , I feel like not me , not me trying to tell parents what to do , but it's . I think it's really important to talk to your kids at a very young age about everything , because , yeah , they're gonna find out some way . Number one , because , look , in the area of technology , they're gonna find out shit like this . But explaining , like you're saying okay , it's a penis , that's the right word for it into intimacy might mean different things for different people . When , if you want to have sex with someone , you say I would like to have sex with you and then clarify what that means and then clarify what sex is .
Speaker 1Absolutely and .
Speaker 2I mean , it takes out the whole romance out of it . Yes , absolutely , but you would rather be safe than sorry .
Speaker 1Fuck , I don't want to go to jail because I'm saying I want to have sex and I'm thinking in my head I want to have full penetration , and the girl I'm trying to sleep with is sitting there thinking , no , we're just going to hold hands .
Speaker 2Exactly , sex is just kissing .
Speaker 1Fuck , there are actually people out there who think that sex is holding hands .
Speaker 2It's sad .
Speaker 1And that's cool for them because that's their definition . But you're never going to know unless you have communicated about this right .
Speaker 2That pulls back to one of our other episodes . That's right , listen to it .
Speaker 1Definitely listen to it , but the terminology right . There's been actual cases where there have been young children who have been sexually abused and tried to get help but because they don't know the right term , they couldn't , it hasn't , so they've gone up to a trusted adult and gone . This person's touched my cookie .
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1And it's like , oh okay , well , it's not such a big problem to touch your cookie , like it's only a cookie and the kid's going , oh okay , okay , but this is actually a real thing , right ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I know , because , as South Africans , you call it a cookie .
Speaker 1Right , there you go . Cookies are for eating , stop . So are pussies .
Speaker 2But this is what I know it , as I know it as growing up , a cookie , a cookie right , but having that terminology is dangerous , it's dangerous . It's dangerous because a person can't disclose what is further on down the line , but also you will get the bad peoples that will use that terminology against him . So , oh , that kid might not you know what ? Oh , it's just a flower .
Speaker 2I'm just going to touch your flower no and then like no , no , no , I'm sorry , this is my , whatever your private parts , it's not vagina , my penis . No , you're not going to yep .
Speaker 1Language is so important . It's fucking massively important . The other thing that I've noticed as well with people who are really shamed out about sex is they'll literally do the whole Homer Simpson thing . They'll go back into the bushes . Yep , they just pull away from any sort of content to do with that . But that again is dangerous as well .
Speaker 2That's problematic .
Speaker 1It's problematic because people are wanting and needing to communicate with their tribe about these things , Because sex is just a part of our life , Like it's pretty much . It's as healthy , if not more , to have sex than it is to go to the gym .
Speaker 2Okay , I like it .
Speaker 1I'll put it out there . I'll put it out there . It's more beneficial for you as a person to have sex and good sex Than it is to go to the gym Good sex than it is to go to the gym .
Speaker 2There's so many things that I want to say right now , but I probably shouldn't say You're trying to find a set of dick dumbbells , so you can do both at the same time , aren't you or ? Not . Why ?
Speaker 1absolutely not but we need to communicate about these things as a tribe .
Speaker 2Yep , and if you're pulling a wave because of shame , what that will do is that will make the person who's trying to come out to you feel shamed in turn the thing is also the more we talk about these , these things , and let's just say , for example I'm going to put it down to fetishists , fetishists why can't I say that word ? Fetishists , fetishists , that one . If we talk about them , you don't know who might be into the same thing . I mean , if you're in a group of 20 people and you start talking about toes , granted , I'm going to be the person . Four other people that can have a conversation with me go , oh my gosh , you like that too . Oh , awesome , what do you like about it ? Actually , there's this group that you could go to that . Do you know ? That has that fetish ? Oh , awesome , I've spoken about it . I no longer feel ashamed because now I realize that other people are into it too , and then I can get into it Versus everyone going ew , gross , that's disgusting .
Speaker 2And then you go oh shit , I'm not normal , I'm bad , uh-oh .
Speaker 1Suddenly you're finding a group and it's normalizing that sexual behavior .
Speaker 2And the thing is as , like you're saying , you always want to find your tribe . The minute you find out that other people are into the same thing that you're into , it makes you feel at home .
Speaker 1You feel , ah , accepted connected and empowered , exactly connected and empowered . And that gets back to that shame resilience theory , right ? The other thing I want to say is really , when somebody brings up a kink or a fetish , be very careful about joking with it . Yes , very very true , I'll tell you this story . My dad and I were used to renovate adult shops . That was what we did many moons ago , when I was a builder how did you never tell me that you did adult shops ?
Speaker 2that is hilarious . I knew that you do . You guys work together but I never knew you did adult shops .
Speaker 1There are so many stories that I cannot disclose about this but , I can tell you privately sure , let's turn these mics off . And done so . There was this one day that my dad was working in there and the shop was still open . He was working in the back part and the girl comes in and she pulls this giant dildo out of a bag and says to the girl hey do you have anything a little bit bigger than this ? And it was quite massive apparently . Okay .
Speaker 2Like our mate . Hulk over here . Like our mate .
Speaker 1Hulk who's holding up the camera , like our mate , hulk , quite massive . The girls , the , the receptionist or whatever .
Speaker 2Checkout girl checkout check checkout ticket .
Speaker 1Maybe let's just say that uh , so she starts sort of stumbling because she's never seen anything this big and doesn't know what to say , and the fact that she wants a bigger one yeah , right so she's sort of stalling , trying to find some time . And then my dad from the background probably not his finest moment , because why don't you just take a leg off a mannequin ?
Speaker 2Oh , my days .
Speaker 1At which point this girl shoves the dildo back into a bag and storms out . My dad was just trying to have a joke , yes , and lighten the mood . He was quite insensitive about that .
Speaker 2The girl probably had a whole heap of shame around and also the fact that it probably took her everything to go to that shop and actually ask that question yes and who knows , she might have been like , oh fuck oh no , I've never dreamed that . A poor girl and this was obviously before the time of like internet , um , where you could just order shit on the internet in two minutes yeah , this was like early 2000s early 2000s but yeah , that girl had so much shame and it was just because of a simple joke .
Speaker 1Yes , my dad didn't think there was anything wrong with the joke because it comes from Liverpool . And that's all people do . That's all you do . You just joke about shit .
Speaker 2Everything is a joke and you know , don't be so sensitive .
Speaker 1Don't be so sensitive . It's a joke , whatever . But at the end of the day , we to touch on is people that really have shame , really refuse nudity . There's a lot of like body shame going on now . They feel uncomfortable making sounds or asking for what they want during sex , literally just like silent little monsters like okay , yes , again I've hit a nerve , haven't I ?
Speaker 2Maybe , maybe you have , maybe I'm one of those people .
Speaker 1I not gonna say yes or no , but hey oh great , feel so shamed about making that noise this is a counseling session , not just turning into counseling not realizing the fact that I'm quiet can come from shame . Continue , continue , sorry a lot of people do feel shame around that , though you know , and they don't want to feel , because if you're making noise , it's almost as though you are promiscuous .
Speaker 2Yes , and they don't want to be seen like that . You're enjoying it too much . Why are you enjoying this ? This is bad , and especially girls you shouldn't like sex this much because you're supposed to be so fucking cute that you were a hoe yeah , it doesn't matter that you might be married to the dude for 45 years . But which woman screams like that only only starts to do that exactly right .
Speaker 1So they , they hold back on making those sounds . And then there's the other thing is like bodily fluids , smells and tastes they get so shamed out about , like girls , especially with the smell of a vagina yeah I'm here to tell you , girls , that most guys love the smell of a vagina in its natural state . They do absolutely , because it's it's womanly yeah nobody wants to get down there and smell fucking dove .
Speaker 2Well , hey , I'll be honest with you . I , as as a gay male that likes men , yes , me too . I like the smell of , because it's like when they talk about pheromones , right , yes , I'm like , yeah , boy , clearly that shit works because , again , the armpit thing I love a guy that smells , not smells as in B-O , but like man , sweaty Because testosterone , because and it must be the whole idea of testosterone .
Speaker 2But when a guy smells like sweaty , but like it's sweaty , like almost a little bit sweet , you know they're working out a little bit and you're like , oh , you're dirty .
Speaker 1Because there's hormones within the sweat .
Speaker 2Yes , and I like them . Hormones , because my hormones be moaning . I like it when you're hormones .
Navigating Sexual Shame and Self-Discovery
Speaker 1The final part of that one , though , is people avoid masturbation . Not me , not you , because you're a grade A wanker just like me , but people avoid masturbating and , like we just talked about , masturbating is healthy Tis . So what can people do about shame ?
Speaker 2First and foremost , like , okay for me , my little one is , there's actually a really good book , for this is , for my side of things , the gay community , queer community . Um , it's called the velvet rage by , I think it's , alan wood , I think it is . It is a really good book . Um , I have the uh sorry , alan downs , alan downs , alan downs . Um , I have the audiobook . Listen to it . I'm literally listening to it again and it it's good because , like I said , our as a gay man , our um sexual shame comes from a lot of other shame and can just melt into one big thing . So , this book , really good . It covers from a kid all the way up through to adolescence and adults and basically stories of um men's shame . He has a PhD , conor and Ben Watt I'm not the person that does research , that's you .
Speaker 1All I know is I'm the geek yeah he's the geek in this situation .
Speaker 2So yeah , look for if you want to look into shame , I would suggest the Velvet Rage . As a gay man , really good , it helped me out with a lot of shame issues . Educate yourself . Educate yourself , most importantly , the more that you educate yourself , the better .
Speaker 1What I will come with is trying to establish a conversation , and whether that conversation is with others that you feel safe , or whether it's by yourself , journaling . Actually , yeah , absolutely , because essentially what you're trying to you , you want to do is you want to try to understand your sexual self . Yeah , what are your associations with the word sex ? What are your associations with the kinks and fetishes or whatever that you're into ? You're trying to understand what you believe and what the world is trying to tell you to believe , correct , and a lot of the time , you cannot fucking have that conversation with friends . No , you can't . I certainly couldn't . Apart from you , I couldn't go out to my mates and be like hey , listen , I'm worried about how the world's trying to get me to interpret this sexual thing . They'd just be like shut the fuck up and get another beer .
Speaker 2Exactly , have another beer , mate . But if I grab a pen and a paper and just start writing , that's a really , really good reflective process for me to be able to sit there and it might be the first step of helping you to gain the confidence to be able to speak to somebody . It might be the first step of helping you to gain the confidence to be able to speak to somebody Once you've maybe just sorted out those things by yourself and gone oh okay , cool .
Speaker 2Yeah , fetishes , fisting how do I feel about that ? I think I might like it . Oh , how are people going to judge me for blah , blah , blah ? Maybe after you've journaled and put your feelings out there , you can talk to a trusted friend .
Speaker 1That's right , and you can also , a lot of the time , find a root cause of a lot of these things , absolutely Like you could go back is it fisting that you're really into ? Is it really fisting , or is it something else that you're into ?
Speaker 2Is it the dominance of power play or whatever of it ? A lot of the time you don't think about it . Sometimes you say I know that I realize one of my think about it . Sometimes you say , like me , I know that I realize one of my I don't call it kink or fetish that I have comes from a very bad place , that I didn't realize why I like that . But the problem is is that when you realize where it comes from , you're like oh shit , I don't want to like this . Why do I like this ?
Speaker 2talking through it , talk to somebody talked talking to someone is so important , and whether that's to get rid of that shame I don't have shame around that anymore because I've worked through it at the end of the day , it doesn't matter where it comes from , where it stems from . It's there , it's there . This is what I like . It is what it is .
Speaker 1Let's just move forward and that person could be a partner . It could be a friend , a counselor , a counselor , a therapist , psychologist , whoever the fuck you need to talk to talk to someone , talk to them . Yeah , one of the final things I will say as well , get comfortable with yourself there's always people out there you think you're the only one .
Speaker 2I guarantee you there's going to be someone out there that likes the same thing that you like . Yeah , there might be . Look , it might be one out of a hundred or one out of a thousand , but there's going to be someone too , right ?
Speaker 1I guarantee , if I put that big green toy out on the market and said , hey , who wants this ?
Speaker 2I'll get 100 DMs within an hour For sure I mean you and I are definitely as much as we choke . None of us are into Hulk over there . But , I'm sure there's somebody out there that would love it . Absolutely , we should do that and see how many people actually . It'd be fun , wouldn't it ? And then in another episode go , you'd be surprised . We'll just analyze the numbers .
Speaker 1But yeah , getting comfortable with yourself is understanding what your thing is , but also getting comfortable with your body .
Speaker 2Absolutely .
Speaker 1Stand in front of a mirror , look at yourself . Notice all the really good parts about your body , because everybody's got something on them .
Speaker 2We should talk about that in another episode more . I reckon we totally should .
Speaker 1But also find out what feels fucking good .
Speaker 2And don't feel bad about when you figure out what feels good to you . That's right you like the smell of stinky toes go for gold . Fucking go for it . Just don't smell mine and don't let me smell yours . But look , there's gonna be somebody else out there that likes that . Fuck yes , whatever feels good for you might not feel good for somebody else , but it's okay . Fuck yes , whatever feels good for you might not feel good for somebody else , but it's okay .
Speaker 1Exactly . The final one I'm going to put out there , though , is to surround yourself with sex positive media , yes , and people , absolutely . We have come from this purity culture yeah , we have come from this purity culture where sex is very , very rarely talked about , and we are now getting into this hyper-sexualized space , like I think I've seen a stat where there's 80-something percent of cable TV episodes have got some form of sexualized content .
Speaker 2Of course .
Speaker 1Right , but it's finding the media that is positive and serves you . Find , if you're on , if your socials like instagram , tiktok , whatever it is find those sex positive influences out there . Watch sex positive listen to sex .
Speaker 2Positive podcasts give Give it a good rating More than a two mum .
Speaker 1Dick oh shit . I think she gave me a three actually , but whatever , and she's been looking at me with that stink eye for the last week .
Speaker 2See , if I had asked her , she would have given a five .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's true . She likes you better than I . She likes me , and on that note , I think we could literally talk about shame .
Speaker 2No , we literally could , and I could go on for days , so I say we ended there .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think you know what . We'll definitely come back to shame .
Speaker 2A hundred percent Because there , there , yeah , we've got to come back and do this . All right , love it well , done , amazing , done beautiful .
Speaker 1Goodbye , people , over and out pieces thanks for tuning in to today's episode of super sex . We hope you found our discussion both enlightening and entertaining .
Speaker 2It's been a pleasure sharing insights with you all . Remember knowledge is power and talking about these topics openly is the first step to understanding and acceptance .
Speaker 1Absolutely . If you enjoyed this episode , don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform . You can find us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts Just search for .
Speaker 2Super Sex and hey , let's keep the conversation going . Follow us on Instagram at supersex underscore podcast for behind the scenes-scenes content updates and more Got questions or suggestions for future episodes .
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Speaker 2So until next time , stay curious , stay open and keep the dialogue alive .
Speaker 1Thanks for listening to Supersex , where we explore the many facets of sex and relationships . One conversation at a time . Catch you next week . Bye you . I'm proud to say she's mine .
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