Episode 52: Kink vs Swingers: Why Are We So Divided?

Ever wondered why two communities that share so much common ground often eye each other with suspicion? This episode dives deep into the fascinating divide between the kink and swinging worlds, revealing surprising truths about how we organize our pleasure.

Joined by the brilliant Mischief and Mayhem from the Ministry of Mystery podcast, we unpack the unwritten rules, cultural differences, and tribal politics that keep these communities sometimes at arm's length despite their shared values of open-mindedness and sexual freedom. Our guests share their journey from curious newcomers to experienced scene-hoppers who've witnessed these dynamics firsthand.

The conversation takes unexpected turns as we explore rope bondage as both an art form and a pathway to deep connection, the science behind why swinging relationships often demonstrate stronger communication than monogamous ones, and how younger generations are bringing fresh perspectives to traditionally older communities. You'll hear frank discussions about consent challenges, the cerebral nature of kink, and why Perth's isolation creates unique dynamics not seen elsewhere.

What emerges is a thought-provoking look at how humans create meaning through pleasure, and how the tribalism we see in mainstream society replicates itself even in alternative spaces. Whether you identify with either community, both, or neither, this conversation offers valuable insights into how we connect, communicate, and create meaningful experiences through intimacy.

Listen with an open mind – you might just find yourself questioning assumptions about relationships, pleasure, and where you might fit in these overlapping worlds of exploration.

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The Ministry of Mischief Podcast:

https://open.spotify.com/show/0mgNskVBcGfVvdT7hNMeuF

Link to Mayhem - The Event:

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Transcript

Swinging vs Kink: Breaking Down Stereotypes

Speaker 1 0:01

All right, folks, buckle up for a super sex crossover of epic proportions. Today we're diving headfirst into the deliciously complicated worlds of kink and swinging, with none other than Mischief and Mayhem from the Ministry of Mystery podcast. Now you might be thinking that these two scenes go hand in hand Leather, latex, group play, everyone's hot and open-minded right Surely. But oh no, turns out that kink world and the swinging scene sometimes clash harder than the dom, with bad aftercare. Today we are talking blurred boundaries, community politics, clicks, consent, norms and why swinging and kink, despite often sharing spaces, don't always speak the same language.

Speaker 1 0:51

Mischief and mayhem have lived it, observed it and created safe, inclusive spaces to explore it. So, whether you're a curious newbie, a seasoned scene hopper or just wondering if you're more impact play or hot tub party, this episode is going to light up your brain and your loins. Let's get into it. Welcome to Super Sex, the podcast that dives into sex relationships and absolutely everything in between. We're stripping away shame, turning up the truth and keeping it smart, playful and unapologetically real. So buckle up, because the combos are deep, the topics are juicy and the safe word is always more. Let's get into it.

Speaker 2 1:42

What do you call winning the, the Pooh's grandmother?

Speaker 3 1:49

Poor Nanny oh gosh okay.

Speaker 1 1:57

Oh, wow, that's how we start our episode down here. All right Back on the pod this week Mischief mayhem, hell eyes.

Speaker 4 2:03

Good, good, good. Thank you, good yeah.

Speaker 1 2:07

So we had you on a couple of weeks back talking about size play. This week we are all talking about swinging, about kink, about the intersection of the two.

Speaker 2 2:17

I'm here too.

Speaker 1 2:19

Of course you are. How are you doing? Are you better than the other week that we recorded?

Speaker 2 2:24

Yeah, I had my coffee.

Speaker 1 2:25

Yeah good, A bit more energy, a bit more zip.

Speaker 3 2:27

You've got a tequila as well.

Speaker 2 2:32

This episode might get freaky. It's me, it will get freaky.

Speaker 1 2:38

But yeah, I also want to talk about rope stuff with you guys, because something I've always been fascinated by never dabbled in at all, but you guys are going to enlighten me, yeah.

Speaker 4 2:48

That's exciting, let's get into it.

Speaker 1 2:50

Let's get into it, all right. I think we need to start, though, with talking about swinging and talking about kink as well, because they're two completely different things. Right, and when people like vanilla people I'm just going to call it that when vanilla people sit there and go, oh, you're kinky. Quite often they sit there and go, oh well, all you want to do is just shag everything that moves. And then, when some people say you're swingers, it means that they think that you're kinky as well and you're just going around there and doing all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 1 3:23

Let's break that down.

Speaker 2 3:29

I agree with your terms though, because, like when you say that you're swinging with somebody, and if you find a new partner and you say I used to swing, I think it's a time to cheat as well. Yeah.

Speaker 1 3:37

Yeah, just like a lot of stigma around both of those things. Yeah sure. But yeah, it's interesting that you guys find yourselves in that space as well, because I wrote a paper I wrote a paper on swingers and there's basically like a demographic and it's middle class, it's white, it's usually between the ages of 35 and 40 and you guys are well in that.

Speaker 2 4:04

I was like oh, what age are you going to say? But I'm not in there yet, I'm not in that age range yet yes, three months.

Speaker 1 4:15

But it is interesting because there is a growing trend for younger people to get into swinging, which is where I think that your age range is sort of coming in and you're starting to integrate a whole lot more than traditional swingers are.

Speaker 2 4:29

Which is amazing, yeah, it fucking is Bravo, you two.

Speaker 1 4:33

Well done yes.

Speaker 2 4:35

We're very impressed, thank you.

Speaker 1 4:37

So swinging? No, because we talked on size play. Were you swinging before size play?

Speaker 2 4:44

Yeah, so the swinging came first yeah yeah, for sure yeah how did you get that conversation when you first, like when you were dating and stuff?

Speaker 4 4:53

so we very like, very stereotypically, were on kind of on the hunt for a female to join okay yeah, we're like oh, what would be like having a threesome that's where.

Speaker 4 5:05

That's where the conversation started especially seeing stuff in media as well, and I'd kind of turned around to you and been like oh, I think I could be bi, like I think that's something that I want to try. I really like to kind of experiment with girls, but I don't want to break up with you and leave you, you know did you have an experience with a girl before?

Speaker 4 5:26

so I kind of had, but I was a little bit in denial, I think, about that actually meaning that I was bi, because I was a bit like I would never. At this point I was like I'd never date a girl. I think I just find them attractive and so I was like kind of talking to you about it a lot and it's something we battered back and forth in conversation and we'd seen a lot on kind of online and did we watch a program or something.

Speaker 5 5:51

I think we'd watched a lot of like sort of dramas and stuff that involved like sex parties and people like being non-monogamous and we're like, oh, that's kind of cool.

Speaker 5 6:00

Like talked about a bit and then we're like maybe we should look into it we listen to some podcasts and then we started listening to podcasts as well, um, and yeah, it kind of went from there and for a long time it was just a conversation and we weren't planning on going anywhere. And then we're like okay, let's probably look into this. We're obviously both intrigued yeah so then we were like looking sex clubs, and turns out because I I was in live, living in liverpool at the time.

Speaker 5 6:30

Um, turns out I live right around the corner from one might as well go check it out so yeah, we kind of went from there and it was a bit like yeah sure you get tickets like got tickets, for I think it was actually a kink and swinging crossover night. So even at the start of our journey it was already all it was always a crossover yeah, and I think we went with that because the whole time we've been dating we'd always been into kink somewhat yeah, we've never been into like your vanilla missionary normal sex really, it's always been a little bit.

Speaker 2 7:07

They're the abnormal ones, let's be honest.

Speaker 4 7:10

Yeah yeah, I was like it's never been that for us, like, yeah, we we've been together seven, nearly seven years, oh wow. And like it was probably two and a half, three years ago that we kind of were like, okay, let's look into opening our relationship up. And we've always been kinky, though right from the start, like it's always okay, let's maybe try this. You know, like, what can we use as restraints? Like can we go and get some, like slowly building up the beginner's kit, as we call it, the spice?

Speaker 2 7:45

You know, like everyone goes and gets like little like first paddle and stuff like that. Oh yeah, you've got like those on online. You've got like the beginner kinks. Yeah, beginner kink sets like we had that down.

Speaker 4 7:52

Um, so we've always been like that and then kind of just went for it and was just like let's just get a ticket and go yeah, like we'd spoken about it enough where it was like, yeah, we should just go for it, otherwise we're never going to do it so yeah, we went for our first night, which was kinks last swinging.

Speaker 5 8:09

We went just like, oh, we're just going to see, like we're not going to get involved, we're just going to watch and see if this is our thing. We go there, we do watch most of the night, and then we actually met another couple and it was like. They're like oh, do you want to, are you interested in playing? And we were like originally we're like no, we weren't going to tonight.

Speaker 4 8:27

And then we're both like well we were both happy to like landed we had a really good experience really great experience and I think that's affected a lot of how we went forward. Because they were they happened to be a bi couple, which at that point we were both kind of like I. I knew I wanted to try bi stuff and you were open to it, but not really sure where you sat.

Speaker 5 8:50

Really we both thought we were bi, but not confirmed, sort of thing.

Speaker 4 8:53

Yeah, and they were bi couples, so we had essentially a foursome kind of soft Was it soft swap?

Speaker 5 8:59

Yeah, it's more of a soft.

Speaker 4 9:00

Yeah, so just kind of like kissing, playing. There wasn't really much sex, but it was so, so good and like they were, they kind of were talking to us all through that consent. What are you comfortable with? What do you want to do like, is this okay? It's okay. If I touch you here I'm like, oh, this is a really nice so you were open that it was your first time.

First Experiences: Entering the Lifestyle

Speaker 4 9:17

Yeah, like we said to them right off the bat, like haven't done this before. This is kind of where our heads at and they're like, okay, well, like you know, we're more than happy to take it slowly, see what you're comfortable with. If there's anything you don't want to do, just say well, you know we can stop. And they were so lovely with that and we just had like the best night and it was so good. But the one thing is we did not get their contacts at the end of the night gutting and like we had no idea.

Speaker 5 9:43

Yeah, and then we got home.

Speaker 4 9:45

We don't know their names, we got, we got downstairs we were like chatting to them for ages afterwards, got drinks and then they like hugged us goodbye and everything, and we literally got in the car and we were like we don't have any details for those lovely people that we just met, but it was the one thing of the night and we're like did you ever go back and like try and find him again, or was it just?

Speaker 5 10:06

like we've gone to that club quite a lot we essentially became, I think they had traveled up.

Speaker 4 10:11

So yeah, so he never bumped into them, which was gutting, but that's like.

Speaker 2 10:16

So if they listen, they would like to say we've said that like all the time, like if anyone listens to our stuff and you're those people um, no, they.

Speaker 4 10:24

That was a really, really great start to our kind of swinging journey Because we were, like we're, you know, very new to it all, very new to kind of anything open as well. We hadn't really opened our relationship at all we're never against it but it was never a thought that crossed our mind it's a lot of trust as well, and a lot of people like our age especially especially, don't go and sleep around unless it's cheating yeah, yes, you know, like most people will cheat at that age as well yeah but like to I'm gonna say have the maturity and the balls to have that conversation at such

Speaker 4 11:00

a young age I think it was just like yeah, we've just always been very open with each other, and I think we never really held any, any secrets back. No, so we always just chatted and then it was just like aha, like I want to, I want to try this. What do you kind of feel?

Speaker 2 11:16

that like open not not necessary open relationships, that swinging relationships have more trust than your normal relationships.

Speaker 3 11:24

As Jordan's, smiling at me. I can talk on the science of this.

Speaker 2 11:28

I think, to your blubbering, I like to call it.

Speaker 4 11:32

I think I actually read something like only 2% of swinging marriages have divorces. Yeah, whereas like the rate of a normal monogamous marriage is much higher.

Speaker 2 11:44

We've just opened the can that he's gonna continue. He's talking about go jordan. We know you're gonna talk no, I mean it's.

Speaker 1 11:51

It's really interesting because the common people out there seem to think that if you are swinging, it's because there's a deficiency in your relationship or it's because you don't have a very good attachment to your partner and you need something more. But the science actually says the inverse, where, like you talk about like anxious and secure attachment, the majority of swingers have secure attachment and that bleeds into really high levels of communication which is what you two are talking about as well, and trust.

Speaker 1 12:19

Well, communication builds trust. And trust builds communication. So you know it's yeah, it's one of those things that is like people think what's going on, yeah, but it's the complete opposite. But talk to me about this then. So it seems as though you guys were kinky before you were swingers.

Speaker 3 12:37

Yeah.

Speaker 1 12:37

But you're so young, which means that you must have been kinky as teenagers.

Speaker 2 12:42

I know, because I never knew what kink was until I was like in my 30s.

Speaker 1 12:46

I didn't yeah, I found out about it last week, so here you go.

Speaker 2 12:51

No, you did not find out about it last week.

Speaker 1 12:53

I've only been doing the podcast. Maybe my brain's just a bit rethought. He's already got dementia Shit.

Speaker 4 13:00

We've been kinky for ages. I'd say we're definitely more into kink in terms of the extreme side of it now that we opened up and we've learned a lot more through being in the community.

Speaker 5 13:12

The progression definitely accelerated once we got into the scene but prior to that, we were definitely kinky. And I think I'll admit, I was probably kinkier than you at first.

Speaker 4 13:23

You corrupted me. That's always the way the other guys end up corrupting the women.

Speaker 1 13:28

He's got a smile on his face. He's like yes, I did Just slowly step by step.

Speaker 5 13:34

But yeah, I think it probably was a bit of that.

Speaker 4 13:37

But I think you are also. I don't know if this is TMI, but you are also.

Speaker 2 13:40

There's no TMI on this.

Speaker 4 13:43

You were brought up in a very sex positive house, whereas I was not See, I was not as well, so that yeah, you know like. So your mum works in sexual health. Yeah, so you were always in a very sex positive environment.

Speaker 5 13:57

Yeah, we didn't talk about it a lot, but it was definitely not a taboo subject. Shall we put it that way?

Speaker 4 14:03

Yeah, so I think, that definitely helped.

Speaker 5 14:06

Probably also, I think, the access to the internet as well, when we were growing up, probably.

Speaker 2 14:10

Yeah, we didn't have that. That's where I wanted to go with this. We had books in the library and if you read those books in the library, I think you would get kicked out.

Speaker 1 14:17

Well, did get kicked out. Once I looked at an anatomy book and was like oh, shit, that looks good.

Speaker 3 14:25

Turned it upside down a few different ways. And yeah, what are you looking at that for you weirdo? Get out. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 14:30

But yeah, that's where I wanted to go with that, because Incognito.

Speaker 2 14:33

Now on Google, I've learnt that now. I never knew that existed either.

Speaker 1 14:37

Is it? Oh fuck, you'll have to show me that I'll show you that later. But because social media you guys would have grown up with that right. Yeah, that would have been a thing, whereas for me that didn't come around until, like I was early mid-20s right 18 for me.

Speaker 3 14:56

Shots up.

Speaker 1 15:00

But that I've found is sort of always. It's allowed me to sort of go oh well, what's that about and what's that about? And it's like an exploration phase. But for you guys it was so young, were you getting exposed to that kinky sort of stuff, and do you think that maybe that's where it allowed that conversation to start?

Speaker 4 15:19

I think I don't watch porn. Yeah, I never really have. I've never been interested in it, that's probably clapping Bravo to you. It just wasn't something I was interested in, whereas you watched a lot of kink porn, which I think is different as well, because they have that consent chart at the start.

Speaker 5 15:38

I think that's where it kind of I think it probably didn't make me into kink. It probably was like oh, this is a thing. You know like discovering it, not making me like it. Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 15:52

So you don't know about it.

Speaker 5 15:54

You don't know it exists. And then, once you know it exists, you're like, oh, that's different and I think it was probably discovering like watching porn. And then you're like, oh, the porn's just a bit like that. And then you start to watch more kink related stuff. And there are those um more like a lot of kink porn. You find will have a discussion at the start where they talk about consent and they talk about what they're going to do in scenes. And then I also found some I used to watch um this particular I think it was a partial podcast, partial video, and they used to do like they talk about a certain subject and then they do a demo.

Speaker 5 16:33

Essentially, and like, yeah, at first I was probably just watching it to get off, but the education was definitely seeping in at the same time. Shall we say which?

Speaker 1 16:42

Which is really interesting because Sex artists are against porn. They do yeah, they do right, and we've got this narrative that porn is bad. But porn, I think, is actually in the right context and for the right people. It can be really good, but kink porn and more fetish-based porn is very different from regular porn right and that's what you were just talking about. It's almost like an ethical type of porn where you're having that same conversation and like showing the aftercare and all that sort of stuff. Educational.

Speaker 1 17:16

Yeah and it's actually displaying what real kink and sex sort of looks like whereas traditional porn, like I don't know something from Blacked or whatever those companies are, yeah, they're just not demonstrating what real sex looks like.

Speaker 2 17:32

I think as well, like we both, stepdaddy.

Speaker 4 17:37

Even, like now, we watch porn that is like amateur porn instead of the I don't know. I call it like the really fake.

Speaker 2 17:47

Yes, like the stepdaddy, oh, oh, the stepdaddy working on the daughter.

Speaker 4 17:49

like sped up. Yeah, it's all. It's just so. It cringes me out so much always, always have to put in that search homemade and it just makes I think like that's the kind of stuff you'd started me watching when no, but like when you, when I was, like I want to watch porn.

Speaker 4 18:08

I want to see what it's all about. And you're like, well, you know, try this, it's a bit more real. And I was like I know what I don't want and that's like that whole fake, like fake moans. I don't want to hear all that, I just want to watch something real. Yeah, um, so that's kind of where we started, but obviously there was like the. You've got like the book talk now as well.

Speaker 1 18:28

Book talk I'm a millennial. What are?

Speaker 2 18:31

you.

Speaker 3 18:32

Ancient yeah.

Speaker 1 18:33

Egyptian.

Speaker 2 18:34

Stonehenge, stonehenge.

Speaker 1 18:38

So what is this you talk about?

Speaker 2 18:39

Book talk, no book. I think she said Book talk, no book talk, Book talk.

Speaker 4 18:46

So you've got TikTok and then your smut books that everyone reads. You've got all the people reenacting the scenes from the smut books.

Speaker 2 18:52

I'm one of those ones that watch those short films, the ones where it's like I hate you, slap you around, just used you for sex me like that's what, but like I think kink's coming out of that a lot as well not necessarily when we first started getting into kink.

Speaker 4 19:08

But a lot of people are like, oh, that's a thing, would you want to try that? Especially a lot of vanilla people.

Speaker 2 19:13

I like that book. I don't know what it's called. My housemate's reading it. It's about the fairy men or something oh, you read it as well.

Speaker 4 19:21

I've read them all fairy men?

Speaker 1 19:22

I don't know. There's millions. They're all. There it is. I've read them all.

Speaker 4 19:24

Fairy man. Yeah, I don't know, don't, don't, I don't know. There's millions. They're all about Fairy man. They're all about Fairy man.

Speaker 1 19:30

I think we're talking about different sort of Fairy man, because I used to play rugby with the Fairy man, but we call it Fairy man because different reasons.

Speaker 2 19:36

No, I see.

Speaker 4 19:47

I'm into the whole like the smart books of the alphas and stuff. I think there's like there's some interesting stuff going on with you Tash no.

Speaker 3 19:50

I know Everyone has used you in the smut books. Right now I have to start learning to read again.

Speaker 2 19:53

You need to just read the smut books. I've actually got a it's at work which is probably very inappropriate for my workplace.

Speaker 3 20:01

It's called.

Speaker 2 20:01

I've got a drink bottle that has smut slut on it and it's got like, like I don't watch porn, I read it and stuff.

Speaker 4 20:04

Yeah, that's exactly it. I have to hide it from management.

Speaker 2 20:07

It's not located on my desk, I swear.

Speaker 4 20:12

But I think there's two sides to the smut as well, because you get people that read it and are interested in it, and that's just like I think it's really hot. They're just interested in the book, and then you get some people that are more maybe have never done kink at all, and they read these things and they're like that's what I need. I need to be dragged around with a collar and I'm like, oh, you're going to do that safely. You can't just recreate this fantasy scenario.

Speaker 2 20:34

Yeah, don't go reading like the alpha. He's not going to go bite you and lock you up like the mafia king and stuff.

Speaker 4 20:40

There you know like there's the two sides of that, but I guess it's like any porn, like we were saying. You know people try and recreate porn that they see online and it's exactly the same. But I think there's like a lot of kink in smut books as well, which has kind of brought it out, brought a lot of people talking about it.

The Evolution of Kink: Rope Community

Speaker 1 20:55

Yeah, and I suppose for you guys, because you were in this age of like mass amounts of information, the visibility sort of validated what you already knew about yourself. Anyway, I'm guessing, yeah, and then that would have become a process of you then start searching for information about what it means, how it means, how to do it, all that sort of stuff, right?

Speaker 5 21:20

yeah. So I think yeah, that's definitely as well. I'm a part of my personal. I look things up a lot Like if I get into some. I've had a lot of hobbies in the past and everyone I'll research to like the death, and then it's like we're kindred spirits.

Speaker 1 21:35

We are kindred spirits.

Speaker 4 21:36

That's kind of where it all came from, everything is researched, like as much as it possibly can be before you've even started down this. Like journey, yeah, but much as it possibly can be before we've even started down this. Like journey, yeah, but I think as well. Like when we went to the kink not the kink club well, yeah, it was a kink and swinging club when we went. We're suddenly surrounded by all of these people that had a lot of knowledge to give and, because we were younger and we were quite inexperienced compared to some of them, they were very open to teaching us. So which is amazing.

Speaker 4 22:02

Yeah, there's a lot. You can you get a lot of judgy people as well, like you don't get away from that suddenly entering in the scene, but there's, you do find people and they will sit down with you and they'll just tell you everything they know. And one thing that's really great about like the kink community is that show and tell is like the favorite thing. Oh, we love show and tell. Like, if you ask about, like, say, a flogger or a whip, oh my gosh, everyone their kit bags are out on the floor, everyone's touching them. They're comparing different things. They'll show you how to use them Like and, yeah, that's everywhere we've been. Everyone will do that.

Speaker 1 22:36

See, I'm a teacher and, like show and tell, I was just imagining like some little five-year-old coming in going some little five-year-old coming in going my mum brought this out last night. Have you seen the?

Speaker 2 22:45

memes on, like I used to call them memes. I've just worked their memes. There's one that's like the teacher one and like the guy's like I've got my mum's rocket and he like turns on the vibration. The teacher's like oh my God stop.

Speaker 4 23:02

Give me that, oh, that's great. So yeah, there's like a lot of peer education within that space, a lot, a lot there's I mean sometimes mentoring, there's workshops that are probably the best to go to, because you have people not trained but like the really educated people teaching you how to do it.

Speaker 5 23:20

But peer like anecdotal as well yeah people telling you what they've done. Yeah, how they did it.

Speaker 2 23:27

They didn't like and then you can make it adapt to yourself.

Speaker 5 23:30

Yeah, so, even like I feel like first-hand experience is always the best experience, but at least finding out from other people you start to have more of an idea of what you're gonna do, maybe the first time, or yeah, a hundred times.

Speaker 4 23:45

I remember one time I was I can't remember what it was on a kink night, um, and there's a guy and I'd just bought this gorgeous dragon's tail which is like a whip and kind of a never used one before. So I kind of bought it because it was pretty.

Speaker 4 24:00

Um, I was like oh, that's what you think, yeah um, and he had one and he was showing me his and like he was like, would you like to, would you like to learn how to use it? And he had his sub there with him, who was also his partner, I think, and we kind of chatted for a minute and he was like she's absolutely happy for you to have a go and to just try. I was like, oh, that's great. And he was kind of showing me how to stand, where's a safe distance. Like we stood for probably an hour just being taught how to use it, and he was really, really lovely. And that's kind of the people that are in the community as well, especially kink wise people, will show you are very happy to show you how to do things and properly.

Speaker 1 24:37

Yeah, it's like I've never really been around that community too much. In fact, the only time I've ever been around the kink community in like very close proximity was when I went to a show at a club that's now closed, hitmitsu, and there was some rope stuff that went on there and my wife basically looked at it hyperventilated and wanted to run out Like that's the only time I've been there. But from just that tiny little foot in the door you could see that there was a community of people that were willing to talk and willing to share and help each other out, which is very fucking rare In Perth with the fringe shows.

Speaker 2 25:20

a lot of rope is done in fringe shows now too, which is amazing.

Speaker 4 25:24

Yeah, yeah, the rope community is really, really, really lovely one.

Speaker 5 25:28

I mean the whole kink community is that's what we found, though, when we got to Perth. Really, really lovely one, I mean, the whole kink community is that's what we found, though, when we got to Perth. There's a big rope.

Speaker 4 25:32

The rope scene here is huge.

Speaker 1 25:35

So talk to me about rope, because I don't understand it. I don't get it.

Speaker 2 25:41

I do. I want to be tied up and just be like dangling there. It would be amazing. I could probably do that, but you're going to get hurt. No, I don't want Jordan to do it, okay, because he's going to hurt because, apparently he doesn't know how to tie.

Speaker 1 25:57

I don't, it's terrible.

Speaker 2 25:58

No, okay, you can practice on your wife.

Speaker 1 26:00

If that chants it out, I'll be dead. But yeah, so rope, why is it a thing? Wow.

Speaker 4 26:11

Rope has been a whole discovery since getting to Perth for us, yeah, okay. Because before then rope was used as kind of a restraint.

Speaker 5 26:20

We'd done a bit of it, but back in the UK, where we were, wasn't as big a community based on it.

Speaker 4 26:29

Yeah.

Speaker 5 26:29

There was a lot more impact going on where we were, so we dabbled in it a little bit in terms of basic restraint like you would use it in bed to tie someone to the bed. The headboard or we've done a basic floor time. Yeah, where here?

Speaker 2 26:43

I think it's more like an artistic form, isn't it? Yeah?

Speaker 4 26:45

it's yeah, oh, we've done some like harnesses for events and like just looked up online how to do like a really aesthetic harness kind of thing.

Speaker 1 26:53

Yeah.

Speaker 4 26:53

And we had really crappy rope as well. So we, when we got here, we started out with how did we even get into it?

Speaker 5 27:03

Well, we start. So we started going to Muncher because when we got here we were like right, we've got no friends. We're like we need to get into the community base as quickly as possible. We just decided.

Speaker 4 27:14

We went to a munch, hadn't thought of anything else that we're like we need to get in the community. Went to a munch on our first week. Yeah, the munch is just like a social, where all the kinky people all go.

Speaker 5 27:23

Yeah. And then through that we're like, okay, there's a lot of people here into rope sort of thing. And then people like, oh, you should go to the uh, an open dungeon. You're like, okay, that would be good. We've been to similar events back home, we're not here, yeah. And then we just kind of made friends at the munch and then at the open dungeon, yeah, and they're into rope as well. So they offered to tie you up as your first sort of proper shibari tie, yeah and yeah, from there it's kind of hooked a little bit. That first time didn't go necessarily perfectly, but it was definitely well enough for you to enjoy it and want to do more.

Speaker 1 28:02

Necessarily perfectly. There's a story there.

Speaker 4 28:05

It's a really interesting one.

Speaker 2 28:07

I know I was just like this alarm bell is going off in my head right now.

Speaker 4 28:11

No, it's not an alarm bell situation at all. Actually, that was, um, I'm so the guy Ethan who we, who I, tied with that first time we met at the munch. He's actually now my rigger, so it's not. It didn't go that bad that we'd stopped tying all together and everything, um, but we essentially maybe got a little excited and we started off very like very basic floor tie, and then we're like how do you think we can like do a little bit of suspension, like partial, so just a part of you is like lifted off the floor, and at this point I thought that I was like perfect health, no idea.

Speaker 4 28:47

Like you know, I didn't think there was anything to be concerned about, but when I came up from that and stood up, I just went completely dizzy, and I'm still completely tied up in rope at this point. So like yeah, so I just went dizzy. I was like a tap completely tapped out. I was like I need to come down, I need to get out now. Um, and Sam was there, though, which was quite good, so I felt I'd started off very kind of like I want everyone I'm comfortable with with me. Ethan was really, really great actually. He got me out well in probably about 30 seconds.

Speaker 4 29:16

Yeah, it wasn't like it felt like a long time for me.

Speaker 5 29:18

The scene just ended early. Then it was planned. Yeah, but it wasn't like no one was hurt, no too hot, and we've since then worked out why yeah it's to do with the restraint of rope.

Speaker 4 29:33

It's quite a physically demanding kink we've done a lot of like labbing since then. So like doing a session where you kind of just going in to play around and see what works yeah because it happens. It's actually happened a few times since then and we've been trying to work out what it is that's causing me to get dizzy and hot and like, and as soon as that happens I get stressed and is it where they tie you?

Speaker 2 29:56

this is the medical charge is like okay, hang on, let me try to fix this. It does it. Does it depend on where?

Speaker 4 30:03

they tie you. Yeah, so we've worked out. We think it's around my rib cage kind of so, the this bottom wrap on what's called like a tk um, when that is tight and lifts me up because it's fine. My rib cage kind of so, that this bottom wrap on what's called like a tk um, when that is tight and lifts me up because it's fine when I'm on the floor. But as soon as I'm suspended from that point then I go dizzy. So I don't know whether it's some pressure probably pressure, with the blood pressure.

Speaker 5 30:23

But we figured out that if the, it's like if the bottom wrap the bottom wrap is what's holding the weight, that causes the issue, but if it's the top wrap, it's like if the bottom wrap, the bottom wrap, is what's holding the weight, that causes the issue, but if it's the, top wrap it's fine, the weight it's fine.

Speaker 4 30:34

So we're kind of working with that at the moment and that is the thing with rope.

Speaker 5 30:37

It's a very similar to how we talk about size, play and stretching. It's a very personal sort of kink in terms of everyone's so different that one tie on someone could be fine but on someone else could not be completely so nuanced in it.

Speaker 5 30:52

Yeah, and that is tiny little delicate changes make such massive things yeah I think that's the thing that makes rope both rewarding and also very intimidating at the same time. I think yeah because we're still, I'll admit. Of all the kinks we do, rope is probably our least experienced yeah, so I'm getting more. Yeah, you're getting more into it now of course, getting more into it, but it is one of those new ones where it does take more time because, like we're talking about stretching.

Speaker 5 31:23

Yes, you need to be careful and you don't want to injure someone, but compared to the injuries you could cause, it's a lot the.

Speaker 4 31:31

The risk factor in rope is so high yeah, especially not so much on a floor tie, even though there is still that risk there. But as soon as you start putting someone in the air, you've got like nerve damage to think about and you know numbness in your hands and if someone passes out how quickly you're going to get them out. So there's a lot of like safety in it. But I think that also is part of the. The part of rope that is so lovely is the connection that you have with the person tying you, especially if it's done right, so like. It's something that I didn't even consider when I went into it. I was like I just want to be tied up, just tie me up, dangle me from the ceiling, you know that was exactly my first thought.

Speaker 4 32:09

I was like I just want to be tied up and I you know I'll see how I feel. And now I'm like the whole point of me going and being tied up is because I love the touch, I love the connection that I have with Ethan and it's just, it's so great, isn't it? It's like and even the challenges are really rewarding as well so that we started going so slow. So, after that whole thing, on our first time, we're like right, I'm going right from the beginning and we've started getting to kind of suspensions and I'm going like I'm this high off the floor, like literally less than a meter off the floor, and I'm like, oh my god, we did it for like 30 seconds and then we put me down and we go again.

Speaker 5 32:45

Like it's so rewarding and it's that like feeling of restraint. Although you can restrain yourself in multiple ways, the feeling of rope wrapped around your body is very. It's almost a calming feeling.

Speaker 1 32:58

Because when we were talking about that and you were saying about being suspended from the ceiling and tied up, I was thinking that there's probably no middle ground for this. You're either completely terrified by it or you're like hell, yes, let's get this on. But then I sort of started investigating, like what do I actually think about that? And I'm like, on one hand, the fit, like the psychological part about being restrained is like oh shit, I don't know about that, yeah. But then I was thinking about like, oh, hanging from something or like you know, feeling like that blood start pumping through you as you're upside down or, you know, constrained in some way, is going to give you a physical, like very nice sensation. That's what you were talking about.

Beyond Sex: Deep Connections in Non-Monogamy

Speaker 4 33:46

Yeah, you also go into, like there's a rope space, subspace kind of thing which is a again, it's a really fine line. Going into that space. Yeah, that's like something personal for every person, whether you would allow yourself to go into that or not and whether your rigor would want you to drop into that space, because the communication is that needs to be there all the time with rope.

Speaker 5 34:08

Um yeah, and I wouldn't on the thing about whether people are really into it or really scared. I'd say it's a bit more blended than that. I think a lot of people probably do come into it with some level of not fear factor, but like curiosity curiosity, but also fear of doing it wrong a little bit.

Speaker 4 34:28

I think that's the right way to come in.

Speaker 5 34:31

But yeah, especially as riggers, because ultimately you're the one in control at that moment yeah, yes, the bunny has given up their control so that you have ultimate control overall, but at that very moment, during the tie, physically, you're the one that's that has the control of that situation.

Speaker 4 34:49

So it's really important to not not to not get things up wrong, because I think there needs to be. I'm a really big advocate for, like, space for learning and space to get things wrong, and that it's okay to you know to try and things not go right, but I think in a safe.

Speaker 4 35:03

Doing it in a safe way is really, really important. But, like even now, I'm there's times when I am a bit more nervous. For a tie, or if the place that we're doing it in has changed, or if we're doing in front of people, I'll be a little nervous and that's just all. Like communicating it, and even with these things like so we've been trying to work out what this thing is that's making me dizzy. So when we're like, okay, we're gonna give this a go, it possibly could give you that feeling, I'm like, oh shit, like I don't know whether this is a feeling I want to get you know. So trying that out has been a whole kind of like okay, like I'm on edge, like thinking like I need to be ready to be, like no, I'm feeling it come down straight away. So I think there is that. But it's so rewarding when you kind of push past all the like the hard bits.

Speaker 1 35:48

Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's one of those things that I think that, like we talked about with the size play thing, it's an exploration, isn't?

Speaker 3 35:57

it.

Speaker 1 35:58

Like every little thing and like what you were talking about is like the different qualities of the ropes are coming into it as well.

Speaker 2 36:04

Yeah, you don't want that blue and yellow like.

Speaker 1 36:06

Yeah, I was just sitting there thinking about going down at bunnings and picking something up but you can't do that because what's happening, what's touching your skin, like that's a sensory experience, yeah, in itself as well.

Speaker 5 36:18

So and also how stretchy the rope you're using like what are you going to use it for?

Speaker 4 36:23

and so like we have the kind of we have cotton uh rope that you get in kind of if you went to a sex shop and they sell the rope there, that's probably cotton and it's it's okay to use, and people usually use it more to start with because it's soft to feel it's soft, it's nice on your skin but you can't do more dangerous slash complicated ties with it, like you shouldn't do a suspension necessarily.

Speaker 2 36:49

Yeah, like um, so that's where it's like a bungee jumping with this.

Speaker 5 36:54

Yeah well, it's also because, as it stretches it, you're risking it constricting to where you're not meaning to constrict yeah it's um so more people use like jute or hemp. As you go, more complex and more risky you've proper got to do your research yeah, it's like and it's got to be years and years and years of that's why, before you can do this yeah when we talk about, it's always like I love talking about it, but I also don't want people to go off what I say it's yeah, you've got to research for yourself.

Speaker 4 37:27

That's the one thing. Here there's such a big community and, as I was saying earlier, there's people there who want to show you and want you know, want to help you and want to let you learn, and here, because it's such a big thing, in perth there's a massive workshop kind of community as well loads of workshops, loads of different teachers. There's people that come over from sydney and adelaide and japan yeah even people from japan come over and teach, teach that.

Speaker 4 37:52

And there's also the different types of rope as well, which I'm not going to talk too much on because I'm not an expert. But there's the different um styles, which are really important as well, and people stick to their different styles and each one has different. I know it looks different. It's different what you do. You have different intentions when you go into doing that rope as well so they call them different philosophies.

Speaker 5 38:14

Sometimes, yeah, it's like, although from the outside they might look similar, the intention and the way they're doing this can be very different, but I don't know about you.

Speaker 3 38:24

This is amazing.

Speaker 2 38:26

I'm just like sitting here with my mouth open going. Oh my God.

Speaker 1 38:29

I'm just getting this vibe, especially from the last episode that we did with you guys as well. That whole kink space is so cerebral, Like everything about it is thought out, everything. There's a deep psychological play. There's a deep sort of meditative space to it.

Speaker 4 38:46

There's almost like a spiritual sort of journey as well, that you've sort of got to go on to find yourself through that practice, which is.

Speaker 2 38:58

You're just gobsmacked, aren't? You, I really am, we've actually made him like speechless, which is rare.

Speaker 4 39:05

Take this moment in, there's like a lot of you've got to to be. There's a lot of people that go into it very lightly as well, um, and a lot of people that will go in for maybe the wrong reasons and have the wrong yeah you get those intentions behind it.

Speaker 4 39:19

I guess you know people will go into a kink space just to kind of have a quick fuck or like people go in to assert their dominance kind of, and be like, oh, I'm a dom and really it's not very safe to play with them. They don't know what they're doing, all they want is to, you know, tell someone to crawl on their knees to you, and you know they haven't done the research, they don't know what they're getting into.

Speaker 1 39:44

They're not a dom, they're just an arsehole.

Speaker 2 39:46

Yeah, pretty much, and that's why sometimes I find being a single female. I feel unsafe going into that community without having a partner.

Speaker 4 39:57

Okay, yeah, I get that completely.

Speaker 2 40:01

Because you're more vulnerable to those ones that want to just have a quick root.

Speaker 1 40:06

Is that maybe where the value of like the munchers come in? That you've got the opportunity to meet people and scope them out.

Speaker 4 40:13

You often don't get a lot of the people that just want to like a quick foot going to a munch like there's a lot of people that munchers because they want to connect

Speaker 4 40:22

yeah, yeah and I think that's one like intention is really important, isn't it like? Why are you doing this, why are you getting into it, what do you want out of it, what are the outcomes going to be? And talking with the people that you're kind of connecting with about that as well. And it's okay to have different intentions and you know different ideas for what you want to do, but you know, not rushing into things, not just doing it because you want to. I think there's also a lot of like you were saying that you just kind of would be nervous to go into that as a single female.

Speaker 4 40:51

One thing that is like as a single female, knowing what you want from it so that you can say, oh, you're not, actually we don't align, so you're not almost desperate for some stuff, desperate for the experience that you kind of forget about what you actually are wanting and what you need and what your boundaries are, just because you're so desperate to have that experience.

Speaker 1 41:13

Yeah, and that's where I think that this whole space like let's call it kinks swinging everything right what you've just talked about. You have to do a whole heap of personal interrogation and personal reflection in order to get to that point, right? To be able to sit there and go. That's what I want. Yeah, now I can count on one hand how many guys who I've met, who are like completely vanilla, that are going out there shagging different people every night, have actually done that self-work they don't know, fuck all about themselves.

Speaker 1 41:52

They have no idea about what real sex is. They're just like oh, I'll put my dick in it and I have fun, you know. And that's where I think there's like that transcendence of when it's not just sex anymore, it becomes intimacy. Yeah, and I think through kink and swinging. That's maybe what it's like a mechanism for that.

Speaker 4 42:15

I don't want to like glorify ourselves either, because we've done it way too many times. It's been like so desperate for to have a certain experience that we've kind of not really listened to our own gut feeling or not listened or kind of pushed our boundaries a little bit, or like our we've not communicated as best we could with each other because we're wanting to have like we'd had our intentions set.

Speaker 5 42:40

Well, we both actually think we want what we're getting ourselves into. But, when you actually think about it in a maybe even a vanilla setting or without that sort of like. Sometimes when you're horny and turned on, you'll do stuff that you probably wouldn't do when you're like just sat at home.

Speaker 4 42:59

Yeah, having dinner like your mindset does change and I think we've started to learn that you should stick to them stick to the plan that you made, yeah, and the intentions you had, yeah, even if in the situation that you, you know, someone offers you something you haven't actually had time to think about. That, you know, and we, we normally sit down and be like, okay, these are all the cards that are on the table for tonight.

Speaker 4 43:22

And if, if that's not, if they're not in that, then we should really probably say like no yeah even if something went really well, like you played recently and had a really great night but it wasn't something that we discussed beforehand. So in the moment I was like, yeah, you go so we hadn't considered it so yeah and it was good and I had a very like it's a very good experience.

Speaker 5 43:41

But afterwards it just felt like just like uh was that really what I wanted and you're like, maybe not okay, what do we do next time?

Speaker 1 43:49

yeah, that was the sort of. So there's always that continual sort of interrogation of yourself. I think it's always changing like I think you could.

Speaker 5 43:57

Yeah, we've been in the lifestyle what openly? Two, three years now, like we're changing all the time. How we play changes any way we are um, but I think anyone, even if you've been in the lifestyle 15, 20 years, you're probably still going to be changing up yeah, even the nights we go to.

Speaker 4 44:17

If we go to a kink night, it's very different from a swinging night in terms of our intention and what we've set and our boundaries for the night, because, as we've found more recently, kink has become so much more of a. Even swinging has become such a personal thing to us, whereas when we were back home we used to kind of put a very much emotional barrier on it and we'd be like no, our relationship is our relationship. We go, we play, we have fun and then we come back and we're just us again yeah whereas now everything is so intermingled and like.

Speaker 4 44:47

The relationships we've built with people are so much stronger here and we didn't see that coming really but I think it's because we've opened ourselves up a bit more mentally to it like, still, romantically, it will always probably just be us two, but there's ways to have other relationships that aren't romantic but aren't just a one-night stand, for example.

Speaker 5 45:08

Yeah, so you can build those deep connections Like an SWB. Yes, yeah, that's what we start. Whenever I'm talking to someone about our intentions, they're like oh, what are you looking for? I'm like. Usually I'll say I'm looking for a friend with benefits.

Speaker 1 45:21

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 45:23

Because it's the easiest way to put it, because it's not romantic, but I want to know the person. You're not just a thing, you are a person at the end of the day.

Speaker 1 45:34

Because I suppose what that does and I've always been a massive advocate for sex is not just getting off. Sex is a connection. Yeah, because, let's be real, if you want to get off, yeah, you can do it yourself 10 times quicker and 10 times better than anybody else can right so you're gonna go to bedroom, jack yourself off and job done. You got yourself off, so you're going to go to bedroom, jack yourself off and job done you got yourself off.

Speaker 1 45:59

But you're not looking for that when you're having sex or when you're in a space with somebody. You know you are there trying to connect with somebody and I think you guys are starting to well. You found that out you found that out, that sex is that connection space. And you're just using these different vehicles in order to connect with others, but yourselves as well, yeah.

Speaker 4 46:25

We said especially like with the rope stuff, that has been like a mind-blowing realisation of like a way that you really connect with people on a completely different level than I've ever expected to, because I was like me and obviously I'll beat that name out um, we have both, like we've been romantically blocking ourselves off from anyone yeah and just been like no, it's very much just sex, and it has been not like in a way of just sex one night stands, but like we have friends, benefits, that's all it is, we don't need any more.

Speaker 4 47:07

And then we had friends back home that we started then going out for drinks with and we're like oh, we really like you as people as well. And then, you know, it became so much more than just sex with them. And then we came here and the rope space became this whole thing and I was like oh, actually, I feel a really deep emotional connection with the people that I'm doing rope with, and that's not even sexual. Well, it wasn't for a while.

Speaker 5 47:31

Yeah, I think that's the thing. A lot of people from the outside looking in sometimes is like oh, how can you have sex with other people? Because I think a lot of people get the impression that you have to have a romantic connection within the sex and I was like, yeah, but you can separate sex and romance, and I think you still can, but I still think there's a line in between. Isn't there where you can have an emotional connection with someone? That might not be romantic, but it's more than just, it's an energy connection.

Speaker 4 48:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a way that I described it to my very, very, very monogamous friend back home who does not agree with anything that we do people, because in 10 years time they're to be the ones that are like in some polygamy.

Speaker 4 48:17

Divorce three times. Honestly. I said to her I was like okay, so what's your favourite cheese? And she was like I don't know what she said, but like imagine it was like cheddar, for example. I was like, so do you eat other cheeses? And she was like, yeah, like I have a whole cheese board and I'm like there you go. Like that, I love that. I love that. It's like you can have everything else and still have a favorite one, and you can still. This can be your go-to and the one that you feel comfort when you have and you know you'll always pick up when you go to the supermarket, but then occasionally you can go and pick up a load of different ones.

Speaker 4 48:54

You can have a whole cheese board yeah and it doesn't take away from the fact that you still have your favorite one like and that's a bit like it's a weird way of saying it, but like this is how it's kind of explaining it like I don't love um mayhem any less because I'm sleeping with other people. I'm doing these like scenes with other people, having a really great time doing that and really enjoying myself doesn't mean that I stopped loving him all of a sudden, and I think that's one way, like I've tried to. That's the thing that you don't have to have sex and romance together all the time, and I think it takes a lot to mentally get past that.

Speaker 1 49:28

And I think that's what actually puts a lot of people off from getting into the lifestyle because they're absolutely terrified of gaining feelings for somebody else. Yeah, you know, but I think what actually happens is, if that core relationship is so strong and you're doing everything for the right reason, there could be some great people come along but, they're not going to pull you away from your preference.

Speaker 5 49:58

They're just going to make it better, they're just yeah're not going to pull you away from your preference. They're just gonna make it, you know. They're just yeah, they're gonna.

Speaker 4 50:02

They just add to it, you know and we found recently, like I said, to said to you.

Speaker 4 50:06

I came home and I was like I've been really thinking today and I was like I realized that you can love people differently like it doesn't have to be a romantic connection, but I can absolutely love another person and it's not the same as our kind of love yeah and I was and I was like because I really I don't want to have to stop myself from having feelings for people, because I do have all of these feelings, but we have a really solid relationship and it's not gonna yeah yeah, kind of change that it's like you can love your partner, but then you can also love your parent and you can love your kids and it's all different.

Speaker 2 50:40

It's so strange, but there's still. There's still. You love your pets and stuff yeah, there's still space.

Speaker 4 50:45

I think people don't appreciate how much space you have inside yourself to love it sounds really deep but like I think that's one of the things everyone's so scared of getting into swing. It's like what if I catch feelings? And I was like, well, you do, but it's just a different kind of love. Like you don't want to have all the family burdens and financial burdens of this relationship with someone, but you absolutely love spending time with them. You love them as a person and I think that's a really kind of the deeper side to swinging that no one talks about, you know.

Speaker 5 51:14

Yeah, to caveat that there are. I still think there are people out there who probably this would never be for them no, no, I'm not saying everyone should do it, yeah but I think more people would actually be okay doing it than they think they would be yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 51:29

I think once this whole um monogamy, centralized landscape that we've always lived in thanks to history and Catholic Church and this and that. We've been put in this position now, where we centralise monogamy because of doctrinations that were put out there you know, in the 1400s, 1200s, whatever it was.

Community Politics and Tribal Divisions

Speaker 1 51:57

But yeah, like we're starting to get away from that now a little bit, and I think, bring on the pagans. So like, yeah, another 100 years and we're going to see a completely different landscape and I would argue that there will be a lot more of those core relationships with people getting their needs met in other ways as well bringing that back to the core relationship and then moving back out, which is interesting.

Speaker 1 52:28

But talk to me. I want to know because I've seen the swinging world a little bit more than I have the kink world, but not very much of either the intersection between those two.

Speaker 4 52:44

There isn't really.

Speaker 5 52:47

It depends. I think it depends where you are and I think it depends, interestingly, on laws. But yeah, I think it depends where you are, because in the UK there's quite a large intersection.

Speaker 4 53:00

We've found that.

Speaker 5 53:01

anyway, we've found that and I think, yeah, most people have spoken to have. Maybe it's just us, but I think that is a bit down to where does kink? There's sex as well. Because of premises, you need licences for kink and once you have a kink license, you basically have I think you have a sex on premises license as well so it's like, okay, we need to run our kink nights, but how are we going to also finance the kink nights?

Speaker 5 53:30

oh, we'll do swinging nights as well. And then you've got these two things happening in the same place and then people start talking to each other. It's like, oh, you're into this, you're into this same way that people of different kinks can get into kinks by talking to other people. Yeah, people in kink can get into swinging by talking to swingers and a lot of kinksters are non-monogamous.

Speaker 5 53:50

Really, yeah, because of those connections we're talking about, you have to have that intimacy so you've already had those discussions and although your end goals can be very different.

Speaker 4 54:03

Your intentions and your approaches can be very similar, very, very similar however, I think we found here, maybe maybe a little bit at home, there was a lot of judgment from each, each side. On the other one, yeah. So, like a lot of kinksters, like, oh, we don't want to be swingers, we don't want to associate with those swingers, like, just because they can't, they don't understand that mentality and that like they think you're sleeping.

Speaker 4 54:27

They think you're sleeping around, even though they're also in this community of people that do something a bit out there and a bit different.

Speaker 5 54:32

They can't understand your mentality, why you want to sleep around, why you'd want to other side is you have vanilla swingers who are like oh that you all just hit each you all just hit each other, yeah, but it's a bit like if you just rubbed off on each other a bit, you'd start to understand how it's not the whole point of the swingers party that you rub off on each other that's how you need crosser events for everyone. So, but that's I think it's a bit like when there's not the space for it.

Speaker 2 55:01

With the kinks as well. You've got your masters and stuff as well. I guess that comes along with like the whole against the swimmers because they don't want to see their, so for like sub with other people.

Speaker 3 55:14

Yeah, there is probably a bit of that.

Speaker 4 55:16

Or the daddies don't that we see there. There's also like an etiquette as well within kink. There's a lot of um kink etiquette within kind of relationships and dynamics that I think there's a lack of respect from swingers sometimes and I think it's not intentional, it's just a lack of knowledge. So there's that's how I think the kink communities can misunderstand where the swingers are coming from. Is they just don't understand what this is, because sometimes there's some dynamics where you can't approach the sub.

Speaker 2 55:51

You have to get permission from the master to approach the sub. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 55:55

There's things like that that they don't necessarily understand or don't respect as much. It's like they don't necessarily understand or don't respect as much and I know they don't know what to do.

Speaker 5 56:02

Yeah, they don't like I've had messages.

Speaker 4 56:04

I've been at um like munchers with ethan and he. We've been stood together and people have then messaged me the day after me like I didn't know whether I could approach you too and like I was like you can always approach me, I'm. You know our dynamic works in a way where you can just come chat to me anytime. We both chat to you. If I'm with Sam and Ethan, you can come and chat to any of us. You know it's, we're so open, but some dynamics don't work like that. You know you'd have to go through, but it's not always clear.

Speaker 5 56:32

I don't think, and it's a lack of knowledge and respect from it's a lack of it's a lack of um exposure yeah, but it's the same way with any cultures, like if your culture never interacts with a different culture, you're gonna have those misunderstandings yeah that's basically what's happened all through history is when people of different cultures interact misknowing you do have a bit of.

Speaker 4 56:56

You can have tension and it happens in the community itself. People will, you know, misunderstand the dynamic or not know what's going on. And, as well, I think there's a bit of there's a bit of judgment from the kink side in terms of like the the spicy, spicy, vanilla, swingy people who, like, want to do a spice up their relationships. Kinks is really like that's not right. You know, like you're not doing that correctly.

Speaker 1 57:21

Because it's almost as though there's like a group, a protocol or something that you need to follow when you're in that kink space and I think in. Australia we tend to specialise a lot and I'll like use my trades background with this. But, like in the uk, you've got a carpenter.

Speaker 1 57:44

A carpenter can go on and build a whole house, put a roof on, go and put your skirting boards in, make your staircase, all that sort of stuff, yeah. But over here you've got first fixed carpenters, second fixed carpenter. You've got roof to carpenters. You've got carpenters that only make furniture, like we super specialize, and I think there's like in australia. We throw shade at each one of those other ones yeah, you know, oh, he's just a first fix, he's just a second fix he can't make furniture, he can't do this, he can't do that, and I think that happens quite a lot within that sexual space as well right, yeah, yeah, for sure, that makes sense.

Speaker 1 58:20

But which is very interesting because you guys have been talking about, like, the different spaces and places that you do it.

Speaker 4 58:26

So it seems as though Australia is its own little micro-world ecosystem of kink and swing, yeah right everything in general even like perth, because we found perth is so isolated that everything is on top of each other and also competing and everyone knows everyone and there's a few kind of this is not to like shit on one thing in particular, but there's a few like big names and everyone it.

Speaker 5 58:55

It's like all hail, these people you know like and yeah, it's like well, it's just like not everyone's ever going to get on like that's a fact of life and I think it's a special case in perth in the fact that, yes, everyone has to interact with each other in perth. Like, where are you going to? Like? I don't think there's much of a scene in geraldton, or like do you know what, probably adelaide or melbourne, yeah, and like that's quite a long drive so yeah you're not gonna everyone does use the same space and use it could just be a perfect

Speaker 2 59:36

I don't know, probably just from Sydney. Sydney apparently has the same Western Sydney. I don't want to be associated with those on the other side of the harbour. I am a Western Sydney girl, or how?

Speaker 5 59:49

Mount Druitt, so yes, I think you get tribal energy everywhere yeah, you get it everywhere, you get friend groups.

Speaker 4 59:56

Back home we used to go to the same club all the time and everyone else who didn't go to the club was like oh, we're all leaky there, why would you all go to that club? It's leaky Like oh, we're just a friend group.

Speaker 2 1:00:05

It's like the north and south of the river over here.

Speaker 4 1:00:17

I didn't know it was a thing, but it people are just weirdos. That's me. I can say that because I came from the south. We're like south of south, the river.

Speaker 1 1:00:20

Yeah, you were like so far south you might as well be a different country I don't know why they call it perth anymore.

Speaker 3 1:00:26

What the?

Speaker 1 1:00:27

hell like. If there was any uk, you'd be like several cities across by now oh yeah, very much.

Speaker 4 1:00:34

You would be a difference, you could be a different side of the uk and you definitely have a different accent.

Speaker 1 1:00:39

Yeah, yeah, oh, yeah, whereas here, all you just do is say can't a bit more right? It's so strange, but I think there's something definitely in that, though, because there was a study done on kink about a year or so ago now, but they looked at North American kinksters, european kinksters and Australian kinksters, and basically the Americans are loud, proud and out there, right Like they're doing workshops, they're going like public event spaces, they're wearing their leather out, they're doing everything out publicly. Europeans are a little bit less public, but still super active, whereas in Australia and Australasia we've virtually got no public scene.

Speaker 2 1:01:22

No, it's all underground.

Speaker 1 1:01:23

But everything's online and we've actually got one of the most kinkier societies, but it's all online and I wonder whether, like, everybody's just finding their super niches online and they're just meeting up with each other and that's why we've got like this weird sort of not interconnected.

Speaker 4 1:01:41

There's a lot of private parties here as well, like people have parties at their houses. It's who you know and it's who you know and you'll get in to those parties via knowing someone that's going to those parties or getting an invite because someone's friends with someone and they met you.

Speaker 5 1:01:55

It's who you know, not what you know.

Speaker 4 1:01:57

It's yeah it's all down to that. What's what like? That's what we've found anyway so far is the way we've got into events and parties is through having a friend that knows a friend, kind of thing, as opposed to like there's tickets out there for an event that you can just go to. It's all very kind of like you know who you know. Essentially, you've got to know the right people.

Speaker 1 1:02:16

And like is there this thing as well, where, if you turn up to another party or another event space and somebody finds out about it, they're like ooh, why did you go there? Like ooh, I wouldn't have done that.

Speaker 4 1:02:30

Is there that?

Speaker 1 1:02:30

sort of thing going on or not.

Speaker 4 1:02:32

There's a little bit of it with some people.

Speaker 4 1:02:34

I think, yeah, we are, because we're kind of very fresh-faced and new and we're like no one knows who we are yet yeah you know we can go and no one, everyone kind of has worked out ministry of mischief yeah no one knows our faces, like they don't put two and two together, and so we can go into most event spaces very neutral and we like to try and keep really neutral as well, like we're going to this space because we like the space, we like the people, yeah, but they, we're not right, yeah, like people give opinions of different people and you're like okay, I can see why you've come to that opinion, but that's your opinion.

Speaker 5 1:03:08

Yeah, I'll take it on board, but I will make until someone does something that we can, has it directly affected us.

Speaker 4 1:03:15

We're not going to take on your opinion.

Speaker 4 1:03:17

Yeah, like we'll be, you know we'll take it on be like okay, that's something they've let us know, but all of the event spaces are great. So far that we've been to, yeah, all of the people we've met are great and we know that some people don't like other people and it's just. That's what it is being in a community and being in such a isolated community as well, but we try and just be like you know what? Everywhere's a really great space. There's not enough spaces anyway. There's not enough spaces to go and hate on one that is there or try and pull down someone that's just trying to do something. There's not enough people out there putting it out.

Speaker 2 1:03:53

You need to support each other Exactly.

Speaker 4 1:03:55

It's already a community. That's so like pushed kind of to the side and you know everyone already slates it enough. We just need to help each other, and that's kind of our view is why I hate on everyone.

Speaker 1 1:04:06

It's like celebrating that different flavour.

Speaker 4 1:04:08

Like everyone brings a different flavour to the table, so you know, unless someone's doing something unsafely or, you know, breaching consent, then you know, everyone just is learning from each other and that's just the way it should be, and I just don't think there's a reason to kind of divide it as much.

Speaker 1 1:04:23

Yeah, it's definitely the case within the swinging scene that that happens as well, quite a lot yeah. And you're just like oh guys, just enjoy it Like we're all yeah together doing the same thing.

Speaker 4 1:04:37

Like enjoy it, like we're all, yeah, together doing the same thing. Yeah, like, if I think that's when we think, when we one thing we've always said is when it stops being fun, like why are you doing it anymore?

Speaker 4 1:04:42

yeah precisely because the whole reason you're doing this is to have fun, yep, and when it becomes this whole serious like this person doesn't like this person, or we're not going here, or we're like, if we go home for a night and we're like we're not enjoying this anymore, we'll just stop because, yeah well, you know why are you doing it it's for fun we're meant to be having fun doing it, yeah yeah, and I think that's where some people get a little bit lost.

Speaker 1 1:05:04

You know they they forget where they've come from. They forget where they've come from, they forget why they're doing it they get too much into the. I have to do this perfectly. I have be this person and they almost like take their identity from that community, which can be really problematic. Like if you're using that community to find your identity, that's a different thing, but if you are basing your identity off that community, like that is not okay, so yeah super interesting.

Speaker 4 1:05:34

It's really interesting. I think the swing and the kink scene are more similar than they would like to admit.

Speaker 1 1:05:39

Yes, Maybe we should get all of the swingers and all of the kinksters in Perth to just sit down and talk about it.

Speaker 2 1:05:45

Well it's like anywhere that would be a great courthouse, honestly Can you imagine.

Speaker 5 1:05:49

We'd end in an orgy. Yeah, huge one, that's what I meant.

Speaker 1 1:05:55

It would be huge one. That's what I mean.

Speaker 4 1:05:57

It'll be a great courthouse it's just, you know, there just does need to be space that people can just do what they want and accept themselves. Like we put out this thing for our event that we didn't know was going to go anywhere, we're like, oh anyone be interested? And the amount of people that have kind of messaged me like, oh my gosh, there was. This was a space that was needed. You know, we needed somewhere where you can be tied up in rope and do the sexual stuff as well, or you can tie and be naked.

Speaker 5 1:06:23

Or you can just have sex while other people are doing kink around you.

Speaker 4 1:06:27

Yeah, you know, just a bit more of an open environment.

Speaker 1 1:06:31

I love that you've said that, because we got um tickets to go to elysian, which is like a. It's like a nightclubby raves but with like a kink flavor, right yeah, and you get through the door and they're like right, play spaces are here, play spaces are there. And we went and we just had a great night drank way too much and danced far too much you know, but like it was just for us.

Speaker 1 1:06:58

It was a very vanilla night. We were just like out there just observing, watching how people interacted with each other. It's fucking great, great, great night.

Creating Inclusive Spaces: Mayhem Event

Speaker 1 1:07:06

Our message you organize is afterwards yeah um, the next day actually to say that was an awesome event yeah fantastic, um, one of the questions that we got from the people who were in our group and, of course, like they asked me because, like you know, I do this pod, so they just assumed that I know everything they're like oh, are those play spaces? Are they like kink, or are they like more than kink? And the Elysian people they were putting it out there, like they were like oh, you know, thanks so much, and every time I'd send a message within 10 seconds, it'd be one back you know, thanks so much.

Speaker 1 1:07:42

It's really good. Next one might be coming up soon. We'll be doing this and doing that and then, as soon as I asked that question of, is the play space?

Speaker 3 1:07:54

not just kink is there others boom, silence like radio silence.

Speaker 1 1:07:59

And I was boom silence, like radio silence, and I was just like oh, that's curious, but it makes sense. Yeah, because of you know that not talking. Yeah, between each other.

Speaker 5 1:08:04

That's a good point as well about events sometimes not clearly stating what they mean by play as well. Like we've been to kink nights before and it's like, okay, you're allowed to do any kink. And then you're like, okay, but can you do any kink. Like I know you're saying no sex, but are sexual elements allowed in your kink?

Speaker 4 1:08:26

like well, it's because we don't class stretching as a sex for us. Like that, we can stretch without there being sex yeah, it's sexual it's sexual, because obviously you're showing a giant toy in your vagina. Yeah, but like we, we don't have to have sex with that. It's very kink.

Speaker 5 1:08:43

We can isolate that as a kink for us, so a kink event would be nice to be able to do that because it's yeah, it's like I understand not allowing sex at a kink event because you don't if you're doing kink, you don't necessarily want to see people having sex just next door. Yeah, but it would be nice to know. Can you do orgasm play? Can you do stretching? Can you do other like? Can you do pegging? Can you do?

Speaker 4 1:09:08

yeah uh, cbt like these sort of definitely involve sexual aspects, but not sex even like like one of the dungeons we go to, they have this gorgeous chair that has a hole in the bottom of it that you can put a vibrator through. But it's a non-sexual event and we're like, oh, but that's such a cool thing that you could do, but I don't know whether we can do that because it's a sexual kink. But this is a non-sexual event.

Speaker 5 1:09:38

You don't want to start something that you don't want to shade from. Yeah, you know you don't. No one ever wants to cross a boundary, but it would be nice to sometimes know explicitly exactly where the band can you do this, this and this?

Speaker 4 1:09:47

can you not? Like we said, we're gonna try and you can do anything. Our event, the only things we're not liking, is like blood scat or things like that, like the things that are maybe more extreme than we have the knowledge to because kind of deal with.

Speaker 1 1:10:03

That's what I was thinking when you said that right, like you go to a kink event and it just says come and celebrate your kink yeah and then some fucker brings out like some nine inch dagger and it's just like right, we're gonna start some blood play now and I can imagine most people would freak out a little bit with that or like asphyxiation play. Yeah, like people are going to freak the fuck out if it's not clearly communicated by the organisers.

Speaker 4 1:10:24

Yeah, that's one thing. Like we've said, with a lot of kink spaces they don't say what kinks are allowed, and especially like stretching isn't viewed as a kink a lot of the time. No, it's not, it's just a part of sex for a lot of people, but it's like we would view it as a kink because it's definitely not your standard definitely not.

Speaker 4 1:10:42

You're not your standard sex, you know yeah, um, and so yeah, there's not really a space for that crossover of the two. And swinging, yeah, they don't. You can't exactly whip your giant monster dildo out at a swinging event either.

Speaker 1 1:10:59

It doesn't go down too well, can you just imagine the shock horror on somebody's? Face if you did that at a swinging event, Because most swingers are pretty vanilla, they literally go there. It's penis and vagina, it's pop, pop, pop and then that's it.

Speaker 4 1:11:13

Actually there was a message on one of the group chats and I've got gotta bring this up it. So there's um one of the group chats for an event we went to recently. It was a swinging, swinging slash kinky event. But it wasn't really kinky, it's just swinging. And they the group chat was like was going off and our friend Ethan put in everyone was talking about how kinky they were and our friend Ethan put in his giant tentacle like a picture of it and the comments coming after that were then we're not as kinky as we thought we were. That is a bit too extreme. And we were like oh, maybe too much, maybe too much. Maybe we scared them.

Speaker 1 1:11:50

But then, like Kingsters, throwing shade at Kingsters, yeah.

Speaker 4 1:11:56

Yeah, it's crazy, the crossover. There's a, there isn't, like I know it's very.

Speaker 4 1:12:01

Two separate scenes that I wish could come together because they're the awesome together yeah like everyone that we've met that is swinger and kinky, it's like the best time when you like all play together, even if it's just you're just doing one or the other and you're not necessarily combining sex with kink or you know vice versa. Like it's just they're the most open-minded people and you can literally say anything, come out with the craziest shit, and they're just like, yeah, we support you, you know yeah.

Speaker 1 1:12:30

Yeah, that's so cool. I mean that's another business idea. We had a whole heap last time we talked. Find out the sex on premises. Find out the kink licenses.

Speaker 2 1:12:39

Copyright. People don't copy it Get the premise and bang. Literally.

Speaker 1 1:12:45

We're like thousandaires. I can't imagine you'd be a millionaire from just having a space like that. Yeah, we might make a couple of grand it could be, it depends how much you sell your tickets for.

Speaker 5 1:12:56

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:12:58

Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 3 1:12:59

That now would come. You've got to find the rich kinksters, the rich kinksters.

Speaker 2 1:13:02

It's for those ones my name is, so that's pretty much, though, why you set up your event.

Speaker 1 1:13:10

Yeah, so talk on that again, because you mentioned it in the last podcast, but if anybody hasn't listened to that one, they're listening to this one and go listen. What? Don't listen? Go listen. I said go listen. I thought you said don't listen.

Speaker 2 1:13:23

You need hearing aids now.

Speaker 4 1:13:25

Don't listen to that one, guys. It's reverse psychology.

Speaker 3 1:13:28

Yeah, yeah, definitely do not go and do that one. Yeah, all right, he needs hearing aids now. What is?

Speaker 1 1:13:34

it because it's perfect blend.

Speaker 4 1:13:36

Of it's a kink and swinging event and it's called mayhem.

Speaker 4 1:13:40

It's on 15th august and, yeah, it's for exactly what I've been chatting about it to try and mix those two communities together there will space for kinks that have sex yeah, have really have that space for people who have kinks, that have that element of sex or like sexual acts within them as well, and you know it is going to be we're going to have buddies there and dungeon monitors, so it's going to be safe for people to kind of experiment, try new things you can come as a newbie, you can come as an experienced person yeah we're keeping well.

Speaker 5 1:14:12

No, most kinks are allowed, except like blood scat those which is a common thing. But also you could come as long as you're open to watching kink, you're welcome to be there and just have vanilla sex.

Speaker 4 1:14:24

Yeah, you can just come and see stuff as well, if that's what you want?

Speaker 5 1:14:27

Yeah, we'll be doing a few demos. I think we'll do a stretching demo. We're going to do a stretching demo which will be the first time, really, that we've done a proper demo.

Speaker 4 1:14:39

Yeah, which will be exciting that'll be exciting and then we're gonna do a few games as well, yeah, I'm gonna have sexy jenga, sexy jenga, sexy jenga. Yeah, oh, I'm very competitive.

Speaker 5 1:14:47

It's gonna be we used to have it back in the uk.

Speaker 4 1:14:51

It was drunk jenga yeah, it was basically a drinking game so when you pulled out the block it, it had something on it.

Speaker 5 1:14:57

Oh right, and then you had to drink or do a dare my stupid mind was thinking that you're just going to stack people on top of each other.

Speaker 1 1:15:03

That's Twister.

Speaker 2 1:15:04

You're not allowed to play Jenga with people.

Speaker 1 1:15:07

But it would be so much fun.

Speaker 4 1:15:08

But sexy, sexy Twister.

Speaker 3 1:15:10

Yeah.

Speaker 4 1:15:11

Doing Twister make it Ooh. Yeah. Yeah, add some new aspect to it.

Speaker 3 1:15:16

Got to make sure everyone has a shelf Left flap on red yeah you wouldn't want to make someone like wow, I think that's a perfect place to end this one I had to. I had to.

Speaker 1 1:15:28

That was great Mischief mayhem. Once again you've been divine. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 1:15:34

You've been divine. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 1:15:35

Thank you for having us, and yeah, if you haven't already check out their podcast, because it's brilliant and, yeah, we'll definitely have you guys on it again.

Speaker 3 1:15:43

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 1 1:15:46

All right, you gorgeous humans. That's a wrap. A huge thanks to Mischief and Mayhem for bringing the real talk on kink swinging and everything in between, for bringing the real talk on kink swinging and everything in between. Now, if you want to keep the good vibes going, follow me on Instagram and YouTube. Just search Super Sex Podcast or Jordan Walker Sexology, and if you're adults and you're ready to level up your sex life, head to jordanwalkerrsccom. But if you've got a teen who deserves better sex ed than you got, go to youwontlearnthisatschoolcom for shame-free workshops and one-on-one support. Anyways, stay curious, stay kind and, as always, keep it super sexy.