Burnout or Avoidance? How to Get Unstuck in Business

If you’ve been feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or unsure whether you’re burnt out—or just avoiding the hard thing—this episode will help you get clear fast. Karas Wright sits down with Mervyn Brice of Forethought Consulting & Coaching to unpack what great coaching actually looks like, how coaching differs from consulting, and why proactive planning (time blocking, project thinking, and reflection) can save business owners a ton of time, money, and stress. 

Mervyn shares how his project management background shaped his coaching approach, why many entrepreneurs underestimate the “whole business” beyond the product or service, and how simple tools like postmortems, premortems, and prioritization frameworks can create stability when life feels chaotic. 

Helpful resource mentioned: 

● Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith (7 types of rest) Website: https://www.drdaltonsmith.com/ Instagram: @drdaltonsmith 

Call to action: If this episode helped you, hit Like, Subscribe, and drop a comment: Are you feeling stuck, burnt out, or just overloaded right now—and what’s one thing you’ll simplify this week? 

#BusinessCoaching #LeadershipDevelopment #EntrepreneurMindset #TimeBlocking #ProductivityTips #SmallBusinessOwner #CoachingSkills #BurnoutRecovery #OkotoksBusiness #AlbertaEntrepreneurs 

00:00 Time Blocking and Creating Structure 

07:18 The Hidden Work of Running a Business 

08:05 Project Management Thinking for Business Owners 

11:23 Premortems, Postmortems, and Life Planning 

15:22 Coaching vs Consulting vs Mentoring 

34:21 Audience Q&A: Stuck, Burnout, and Consistency 

Host: Karas Wright — Business & Leadership Coach (Wright Step Coaching) Website: https://www.wrightstepcoaching.com/ Instagram: @wrightstepcoaching 

The Clarity Path is a practical leadership and business reset for experienced leaders and business owners whose thinking has become crowded, slower, or heavier under pressure even though performance hasn’t stopped www.wrightstepcoaching.com/clarity-path 

Guest : Mervyn Brice — https://www.forethought.ca/ Email: mervyn@forethought.ca 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

A lot of them are not realizing that there's so much more to running a business than the actual product or service that they're offering. Uh right. Um so what's that e-myth, the Gerber? Michael Gerber, I think is uh the the entrepreneurial myth is that you just think you can just step in and do it on my own. I can do it better than my boss does or what have you. And they jump into it and they realize, oh, I've got marketing I have to do. I've got to do HR, I've got to do, you know, the books every month. All those other aspects holistically, um, that's what I think a lot of companies are finding it to be challenging for, or a lot of owners are finding challenging.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Aaron Powell Yeah, it's that technical expert that jumps in and has the desire to uh make a difference in the world.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

Right. And don't realize that all of the other companies are there other aspects that uh come in and impact what they're doing. It's um it can be frustrating and it can be, you know, they they get disheartened if things aren't going their way.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

I am Karis Wright, and I am so excited about today's conversation. But before we get there, a message to the collective that I have is really surrounding some conversations that I've been having in my Clarity Path program. This is a program for business owners, and we are moving from our values and our clarity into structure. And something that is coming up for a lot of those business owners is getting to organization and standardizing things. And so I want to throw this out to the collective, and I'm really excited for my guests because we're gonna have a great conversation about business, is being able to prioritize and time block. It's gonna save a ton of time for you in terms of organizing your day, your week, and it will also create structures so that if it's in your calendar at a specific time, you have no choice but to sit down and do it. Cuts a lot of the clutter and noise. But I'm very excited to have Mervyn Bryce from Four Thought Coaching and Consulting with me because we're gonna have a conversation all about business coaching and consulting today. So thank you so much for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

And I mean, we play in the same arena.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

We do.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

And it is so much fun to be able to have you here today. Talk to me a little bit about Forthought.

SPEAKER_04 2:44

Fourth Consulting. Um, I named it Forthought Consulting because of all the things I was doing prior to my role in Ford Thought. Um, I'm a career project manager by trade, uh primarily in the industry of IT, information technology. And ironically, I'm not an IT person. I'm a you know social, social science guy. My degree is in psychology and communications. Um so when I was doing my project management work or uh account management work, um, I was always sort of learning some lessons the hard way. And I always thought, boy, if I could kind of go back and do that again, I would, you know, be proactive and have more forethought towards what I need to do and get ahead of the game rather than sort of reactive, be proactive. So when I decided that I was going to go kind of consult and uh get incorporated, I thought, well, forethought, forethought consulting, because you know, thinking about those things that a lot of people don't think about, or they think about it after the fact and realize, oh, I wish I had done this or I wish I had done that. Um so yeah. So forethought's been around for quite some time. Uh, 2001, I got incorporated and sort of jumped around between management consulting uh for you know full-time uh FTE work or as just a sidebar, side, side hustle, side gig, um, again, usually as project management. Um, but I'm moving more towards or was moving more towards the things that really I found as a project manager were really challenging. Um, challenging in the sense of, you know, if we were to do something properly for the right time, you could save a lot of time and money. Project management is ideally sort of that triple constraint, time, scope, budget. And usually one invariably affects the other two. And nine times out of ten, whatever project I was working on would, you know, have some sort of a consequence that was negative. And I always thought, boy, if we could just do something a little bit more proactive with that um and get ahead of it, we could avoid some of those pitfalls, either financially or scope creep or whatever. So that's what I've been doing in variety of ways for um, yeah, 25 years now, 26 years, I guess. And um, it's been quite a ride. Um when people say, Oh, what do you do? And I say, Oh, um, you know, work primarily in IT, and I give them sort of my history, they're like, Oh, I can't I can't imagine kind of how you got started. Um, but it's been good. It's been a lot of fun and um you know, entering a new chapter as more of a more of a coach, business coaching. Um, working with some of those owners and operators of small business, small to medium-sized businesses, and maybe helping them in some of those areas that the larger corporations, the larger enterprises, you're just a bit of a small cog in the in the big machine, uh, Caris. And um I don't I've been there, done that. Um I want to be more impactful uh sooner. And I just wanted to make that shift at this point in my career. I'm I'm able to do that. And so I'm enjoying it. I'm enjoying the transition for sure.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

The shift that you've had to working from larger organizations to smaller organizations. What has actually been uh most rewarding about that change?

SPEAKER_04 5:59

Again, I think just being more impactful at sooner. Um a lot of the lessons that I've learned um hard the hard way sometimes, um, I'm really working with smaller, you know, business owners, entrepreneurs, solopreneurs to avoid some of those challenges upfront or try to at least be better prepared for them and and anticipate rather than sort of react. Um so that's been really rewarding is to be able to say, oh, you know, have you considered this? Have you thought of this? Um and that way they can just be better prepared and have a better idea of what to expect or how to deal with something, uh, a lot of the challenges that they have. So that's that's the biggest one for me, I think, Karis.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Aaron Powell It's interesting because we work in the a lot of the same ways in terms of that taking a step back, having the forethought before taking the right step. Right. You see what I mean? Very good. Well done. Yeah, absolutely. It's what are you noticing some of the things with your coaching and consulting clients that are coming up?

SPEAKER_04 6:59

Um a lot of them are not realizing that there's so much more to running a business than the actual product or service that they're offering. Uh right. Um so what's that e-myth, the Gerber? Michael Gerber, I think is uh the entrepreneurial myth is that you just think you can just step in and do it on my own. I can do it better than my boss does or what have you. And they jump into it and they realize, oh, I've got marketing I have to do. I've got to do HR, I've got to do, you know, the books every month. All those other aspects holistically, um, that's what I think a lot of companies are finding it to be challenging for, or a lot of owners are finding it challenging.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Aaron Powell Yeah, it's that technical expert that jumps in and has the desire to uh make a difference in the world and don't realize that all of the other companies are there are other aspects that uh come in and and impact what they're doing.

SPEAKER_04 7:48

It's uh it can be frustrating and and it can be, you know, they they get disheartened if things aren't going their way. Uh time goes by and money goes out the door and they're like, oh, can I keep up call can I can I keep on doing this? Um so that that's the one thing I know I noticed the most for me.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Yeah. When I think about eMyth, because uh Michael E. Gerber is a huge part of system business coach um philosophy, is really about starting with that why, getting that clarity aspect of that in, and then also looking at the interconnections between how the business runs. So something that goes sideways in your finance, it's going to ripple effect over your operations, your marketing.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

It's gonna have a ripple effect into your leadership, whether that's self-leadership for our solopreneurs or otherwise.

SPEAKER_04 8:38

Yeah. 100%. I I've found a lot of a lot of the companies and the businesses that I've worked with, whether it's the larger ones or the smaller ones, they're always sort of thinking about either, you know, just is it profitable? You know, you know, can I make ends meet? What have you? And there's so much more to it than that. And it's a matter of getting there to think more holistically, um 360 degrees rather than sort of that one thing at the end, you know, well, there's steps towards getting there. And have you thought about other aspects of it? You know, it's not just about the dollars and cents and profitability. Um, there's other areas that they need to consider. And I find that a lot of companies don't necessarily look at that, or at least not enough.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

So Absolutely. I, as assistance business coach, I have a tendency to focus a lot on the process. And so with you having a project management approach, walk me through what your clients would experience.

SPEAKER_04 9:29

Uh that's a good question. Um, a lot of times they're thinking about they've already got a solution in mind. Um, and it's usually an IT or technical solution in mind. So they come back and they just say, Oh, we need to build this new piece of software or we need to uh implement this new system. And you talked about why, right? The old Simon Sinek uh, you know. So I try to pull them back and say, well, wait a second, what are we actually trying to, what are you guys actually trying to accomplish here? How you get there is one thing, but you know, what's the motivation? Um, you have to have that as the foundation first, in my opinion. Um, but they're always ready to solution. They're always ready to let's do this. We need to code this and build this, and it'll take three months. And I was like, okay, it sounds like you've already, what do you need me for? Right. So I try to just walk them back and walk through and understand sort of the the steps involved. You determine what your why is, then you come back and you go, okay, these are my requirements associated with that. This is what we're gonna need from this department or from this stakeholder. Then you plan it out. Um, then you actually have your, you know, how much time and effort is it gonna take? And you do that sort of linearly, you know, and then put it that put it all together. And then I execute it as a project manager. So those are the areas that I tend to focus on. Um one of the things, Keris, that I always find um, you know, at the end of a project or towards the end of a project is people's attention is already on the next initiative or the next thing. Uh, but if you close out a project and and really work and apply the lessons learned, um you can avoid again some of those pitfalls, or you can make sure you're doing some things proactively to make things smoother. Because if you have any success with a project, likely you'll get handed another project again, right? So why not leverage what you've just learned or what you've done in the past so that you can again fine-tune, refine, make it more effective, make it more efficient. Those are the things that I like to do. It doesn't always work out that way, but uh that's kind of the process I like to follow anyway.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Aaron Powell The value of doing a postmortem. Yes. Be able to take an opportunity to learn what worked, what didn't work, what tweaks would you have done, uh, and you could apply those next time.

SPEAKER_04 11:30

Aaron Powell We uh I apply that with everything that I do. I I do volunteer, I volunteer as a coach with the local high school. And one of the things that I talked to the head coach about when I first joined his staff uh at the end of a season, I said, you know, hey coach, you know, do you ever kind of step back with the coaching staff and do a look back or a lessons learned? And he was like, Oh, okay, no, I haven't really done that. And now they've been doing it ever since, uh since 08 or 09, we've been doing it, right? So it just matters. You learn from what your you know mistakes are, things that you can improve upon, and you leverage that in the off season, and you're that much better for the next season. So it's no different with, you know, whatever, if it's for-profit, not for profit, yeah, you know, sports.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Sports, actually. Um, I don't know about you, but we use it at home as well, right? Yes. So what what's working, what's not working?

SPEAKER_04 12:16

Yeah. Well, my wife, you mentioned that my wife has a sort of we get the the family meeting together every once in a while at the dinner table. And of course, all the eyes roll, but you know, we talk about, hey, this is something I'm noticing, or we're struggling with this, or have you noticed that? And we need to address this. And it works. So yeah, you do it at home as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Have you also applied a premortem?

SPEAKER_04 12:38

No. I I've I've got a I've got a life plan. I've got a life plan that my wife and I did. Well, actually, we need to renew it, but we we did it about 15 years ago, 10 or 15 years ago. And we look at it, I look at it as a PM. It's just in my DNA. Um, I look at it probably once a year. My wife not so much. But yeah, we have sort of a life plan, um, what we want to do, where we want to be in certain parts of our lives. How about you?

SPEAKER_00 13:02

I love that you've got um a life plan and the premortem concept because we do the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

So it's uh an annual meeting that we get together and we talk about what's the goals ahead, what's working, what's not working. And even actually before we got married, it was to understand like, is this where we are we actually want uh going in the same life plan or the path? Some of our viewers may be going, like, what's going on? These coaches are a little weird. So, but what's the benefit of that?

SPEAKER_04 13:39

Right. I I just think that, you know, if you're not on the same page with your partner or whoever is on your whatever team you're on, business or personal, social, what have you, uh it just makes things a lot more difficult. Right. And you how do you expect to reach whatever your goals or your ambitions are if you're not aligned in in what it is and then how you're gonna get there. So it just, yeah, people will call me a little bit weird when it comes to that, because I do bring some of those things to like sports, uh, the coaching staff, they say, Oh, Mervyn, that's a little, come on, over the top, Mervyn. Like you got this life plan or things that you've done to prep for a game or prep for uh an upcoming season. But I just find it makes a difference. Uh uh it works for me. And if you you don't have to do it literally step by step, but just the concept of it and having some sort of an idea, okay. What do I want to do and how do I want to get there? And how's it going along the way as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 14:32

Getting off track or what have you. So I just find this works successfully for me. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

I I couldn't agree with you more. Uh it's that concept of being able to understand what is it that you need? How are you connecting to those around you? Um, if there's not alignment, let's have that conversation, like the preemptive friction conversation. And if it's a project, so we um I'm thinking of several non-for-profits that I sat on here in Oak Tokes and we'd have a gala or something like that. You'd run through a premortem just to, okay, what are things that potentially could go wrong so that we can sidestep those.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Or make sure, oh, has somebody got this?

SPEAKER_04 15:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

So why wouldn't you do that in your own life?

SPEAKER_04 15:18

I I'm a big f proponent of it. Um, you mentioned sort of, you know, things that are like social events or what have you. Um I also volunteer, I'm on the board uh with the um hospice, um the Foothills Country Hospice here, just outside of town. And uh, as a board member, again, I look at a lot of aspects. They come at me from a certain IT. Well, Meren, what should we do with an IT perspective? But they even have special events, and I say, Oh, have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? Because I've seen it in the past. And you just want to avoid some of the challenges or prepare for them. Uh and if you don't know that, you know, even think about it, you don't know what you don't know. So uh again, they find a lot of value with just bringing some of those things to to to the forefront that you know they may not have thought about otherwise. So so yeah, I I look at things holistically. That's who I am, and that's kind of how I like to l live my life.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

So I I love it.

SPEAKER_04 16:09

I'm not gonna make excuses for that.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

No, no. Be unapologetic. Be completely unapologetic about that. What I'm looking at this through is risk management from a project management standpoint. And then for me being a banker, we would always look at um underwriting or any sort of compliance from a risk management standpoint. And that's coming up for me as well. It's how can we mitigate mitigate risk?

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

And that comes back to business. How do you mitigate the risk in business?

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

So we've been talking a lot about the consulting side. And you're shifting over to coach. I've been a coach for a while. And what are you noticing that that transition from consultant to coach for yourself has been?

SPEAKER_04 16:52

Well, the consulting side is more where they actually want you to provide them something, like they're they're coming to you for some level of expertise. And at the end of the day, you provide something tangible to them. On the coaching side, it's a little bit more where they're sort of looking for you for maybe advice or guidance. And you actually just walk them through well, have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? And helps them to be more proactive and learn and think about things and what's the best way for me to prepare for whatever it is I'm trying to do, in this case, for my business or for my whatever I'm leading as a group. So I find the coaching side is a little bit less sort of no tangible sort of physical things that I'm maybe providing them at the end of the day, but it's more uh sounding board, a third party, um, uh somebody that's more objective, right? That's not gonna pass judgment. I'm gonna be there to listen if you want my advice. These are some things. What I like to say is, well, these are some some things that I've gone through in my experience, you know, and if it relates to them, then they can leverage off that. But I try to focus on more that, you know, this um socrat socratic questioning. So open-ended, make them sort of think about ways that they could pursue something that they haven't thought about before. And it just winds, it just opens things up for them. And um, yeah, those are the areas that I find as a coach that are really beneficial for my clients.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

So I'm I'm I'm gonna challenge you a little bit on this. Um because I'm hearing a little mentoring, advising mixed in with the coaching there. So for our audience, um, maybe let's let's dive through where that delineating line is, because there's a difference between pure coaching and that mixture that a lot of us coaches have. That is a little bit of advisory, a little bit of mentoring. So the Socratic coaching is in in my perspective, is a little more aligned with pure coaching.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Right. Yes. Yes. Okay. I agree.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

So the when Because when I look at this, and I will admit I do a blend of coaching and advisory depending on the situation.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

So when are you pure coach? When are you mentor coach? When are you consultant?

SPEAKER_04 19:14

That hat varies all the time for me, Caris. I don't necessarily like I just can't sort of turn off one and transition to another. And when I'm sort of working with my clients, I typically let them lead, you know, I let them follow where they're going. You know, even at the beginning of the session, I'll say, you know, hey, so what did we want to work on? This is what we talked about maybe last week or whatever we spoke last, but is that what you want to talk about right now? Or what's currently kind of just gnawing at you or challenging that you want to, you know, need some help overcoming. Um, so I have a difficult time. I can't, I can't say, oh, okay, this is the coaching aspect of it. Now we get into the pure consulting aspect of it or the mentoring aspect of it. I personally uh it sort of just flows. Um sometimes I'm not even sure. I just follow the lead of my my client. So I don't know how successful you are with that, but to be able to sort of have sort of specific, you know, areas that and move from one to another, it it's more fluid for me.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Yeah. I I would I would say that it depends on the contracting that I'm doing with the clients. So I I'm not gonna say I'm 100% successful at it because I'm we're human, right? There's a humanity aspect of wanting to help and somebody, you know, when you're using those Socratic questions, those non-directive questions to have somebody else pull out and glean um answers from their selves, their their own mandate. And really, I do believe that we have the answers within ourselves. There's an element of wanting to help. Yes. Right. You just want to, oh, they're struggling. I know they know the answer. I know they're gonna come up with the their own solution here, but I want to support. Right. And so what I found is really helpful is for me to ask that question. You know, I'm noticing that this is uh that you're struggling a little bit. And so um, what do you need right now?

SPEAKER_04 21:09

I tend to use a lot of active listening. Yeah. And uh like you had mentioned before, there are times, especially when I was getting started in the coaching realm, where I just wanted to jump in, you know, and and help them with solutioning or to do what and produce something. Um, but I really sort of learned to and discipline myself to be, you know, step back. You may know the answer, I may know the answer, or I have an idea, but I'm not gonna always see, you know, push that. Uh I let them come up with that solution. There's a gentleman that uh, I guess you could say he was a bit of my mentor. I worked with him when I was at HR Blaw Canada. And it wasn't until I got into the coaching realm myself that I realized he was doing a lot of those things with me. I would go in and we have one on ones. I was I reported into him at the time. And he would, again, that sort of Socratic coaching style, he would sort of ask me again those open ended questions, or he would say, you know, have you thought about this? or you You know, is there an alternate way that maybe you can pursue this? And I wound up coming up with another idea that he already knew. He already knew it was there, but he just waited and let me come through with it. And now that I'm in that role myself, I said, Oh, you okay. I I know what you were doing back then, you know, when we were doing it. And now it's I'm on that other side of the table. So it's very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Isn't it funny? I think for myself, I think my biggest teachers, because I've been coaching in uh, you know, started out as a sales coach and then moved into a leadership business coach over, you know, since 2010. And it wasn't until I actually had teenagers that because they don't want to be told no. No, no, it's not they want to figure it all out. So, you know, being able to step back and asking those questions, even though you know that what's gonna happen is the worst thing ever. But it's like we got to just trust that they have the answers within themselves and we can pick up when something goes sideways.

SPEAKER_04 22:58

Experiential learning.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

The experiential learning.

SPEAKER_04 23:01

They do not want to hear it from mom and dad. No. Um, but you know, funny enough, I I'm sure you find this as well. They you could say the exact same thing, and you know, or their friend or somebody else uh can say the exact same thing and all of a sudden it's oh, okay, yeah. And you're like, I just told you that two weeks ago or whatever, right? So yeah, my son, um ironically, he literally just moved out. Um he was uh in the house and he's just taken on a new role with some uh roommates uh in a condo uh out in west. And um, we know he's gonna run through all these sort of things that are gonna be like, oh, I hadn't thought of that. And he's gonna come back on weekends and raid our fridge and say, oh, thanks, mom and dad. I you know, I hadn't run into this, I hadn't experienced that before until you and I know my wife especially is gonna be like, I told you so, but we have to you have to let them go and let them learn on their own.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Let them go and learn. I I hear you. And and good on you. We've got three that have launched so far. So uh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:03

We are empty nesters officially as of March 1st, yesterday. What's that like? It was uh, you know, I think it was harder on my wife. Uh I was like, oh, okay, one of these kids gonna you know, of course, no, I I it was it was a little it's quieter. There's no doubt about it. But uh everybody goes through it, right? That rite of passage. So um yeah, they'll do fine. My daughter left last summer and uh, yeah, my son just uh moved out last weekend. So we'll see how things go. We'll see how things go.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

It's exciting. Well, we still have one at home we share custody with him halftime. And so we've got another five years until he launches and heads on to whatever his next adventure is. But yes. And so, you know, linking us back to what we were talking about is those questions, those non-directive questions of just being able to have others um understand what's what they want to come up with and how they want to respond to situations. And I think that's helpful for business owners.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Especially as they're trying to figure out, you know, moving from that technical expert, moving into guiding their own team, creating their own vision, doing those all those things, is they've got to figure out what those are themselves.

SPEAKER_04 25:15

Oh, yeah. I find that a lot of them, a lot of my clients, they ask me questions like, you know, hey, Mervyn, have you ever run into this? Or how how did you deal with that? And um it's funny, over the evolution of my relationships with my clients, you know, it does start a little bit more technical in nature. Excuse me. Uh maybe where it's more consultative, where I'm just sort of providing them with some sort of service or pro you know, something. And then after a while, you build up some trust and you build up the relationship. And then they're kind of open up a little bit more and talk a little bit on a perspective that maybe isn't always work related or for their business or for their operations. And say, Oh, I'm struggling with this, or I've got this one um employee that I'm really having a difficult time, or what have you. Have you ever run into this Mervyn? And then, you know, again, I just sort of say, well, you know, maybe not specifically, but I've in this sort of scenario, I've I've got something and this is how I dealt with it. Um, these are some options. What do you think is the best way to to go about it as well, right? And I think they value that. It's less threatening, and um, you know, they can take it or they can leave it. But a lot of times I find that they run with it and they say, Oh, okay, Merman, that was great advice. And I speak to them the next time. So I I did that or I I took that suggestion and uh you know it really helped. Or that didn't help at all. But at least I learned from it, right? What to do and what not to do. So um yeah, it's dynamic. I I like that aspect of coaching for sure.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

I love that. I love that, you know, similar situations uh arise and I take a slightly different approach, in which is, you know, we'll explore, you know, well, what's one avenue, what's another avenue you can explore, what's a third option? Let's um I use a you talked about Socratic coaching. I tend to use something called appreciative inquiry. Okay. Uh or the grow method. Uh there's, I mean, there's lots of so many different out there, but I found that those really work. Be able to get the juices flowing, um, kind of look at a dream state and then navigate through what the best options are for them. And then if I have some advice, I'll actually fire an email over afterwards or a framework or something that I think would be additive to the decision that they've made.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

So then all of a sudden it um becomes uh an extra, like a value add as opposed to me providing that advice. But what I love about this is that we have two different approaches that are both valid.

SPEAKER_04 27:34

Right. I that's interesting. You you, you know, just l listening to again, I was trying to I've got my thoughts. I'm gonna hold off before I jump in. But do you change sort of your method, whether it's Socratic or you know, what have you, depending on the client and then depending on the situation with the client, right? Have you ever kind of mixed it up and and kind of run or you say, oh, this is this client, I'm always gonna work in this sort of approach or methodology with this client versus someone else?

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Do you know that's a really interesting question? Um, and one that I've been navigating right now is I'm working through my master's in uh counseling psychology, and I'm in uh two back-to-back methodology classes. And that is something that has been popping up for me as I think about therapy. Do I mix different modalities, you know, CBT or um anything else? And I'm like, okay, I hadn't actually thought about that, how I approach my coaching. And I would say I have because of doing this for so many years, I've got my toolkit and I will take my response based off of the client, what they need and the c um as well as the client situation. So is there a framework or a formula? No. Is it a trusting my own intuition of what they need and then asking? Sure. Right? Because I don't want to make an assumption. Um, because we all know what assumptions are. Yes. Right.

SPEAKER_04 29:05

So that's a great question. Well, I I asked you to ask yourself. Well, I ask it because I haven't, admittedly, uh only two, two and a half years in. I don't know if I've had enough experience, enough clients to be able to sort of say, oh, I'm gonna pull this out of my toolbox for this client, or I'm gonna pull that out of my toolbox for this client. So for the longer people that have been doing it longer, that those are the kind of things that I really would be interested in. And is it even fair to the client to say, well, I'm gonna now have you, this is the way I think you are gonna be respon most responsive. So I'm gonna work with you in that way. But are you willing to maybe try it a little bit different every once in a while and say, oh, that didn't work at all? Or wow, okay, this is actually proven successful.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

So two, I'm gonna answer this with two schools of thought. First one is the one time I will use a framework is when I'm doing uh targeted coaching.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

So targeted coaching different than free formatted coaching. Free formatted coach c or the client comes in with their topic or whatever they want to do, and then we coach through that. Targeted coaching tends to happen when and I've done this in four or five different programs that I've supported or consulted in, where they've got a specific framework that they need to go through. So you've got to coach through that framework. So it tends to be a little more guided, uh guided in terms of what the response is. Um, but I would also say that it really does depend on the relationship with the client, what they're needing and what the agreed upon, like it comes right back to what the agreed upon uh relationship at the very beginning. At the beginning of the session, as well as the beginning of the long-term coaching contract. So if they have contracted me for peer coaching and we're drifting into consultant work or more advice work, I have to stop and clarify that because that is it starts to work on integrity. And am I breaching any of the um rules of the ICF? And I know you're credential you work with a governing body. So I think there's an integrity piece there. There's also a morality piece. And you know, I can't necessarily give somebody advice because I've never really walked a mile in their shoes. So it's a here's my thought on this.

SPEAKER_04 31:26

Right. There's also an ethics aspect of it as well that we need to, you know, follow as well as professionals, so um, as accredited coaches. Um also group coaching would be uh challenging as well, right? If you've got a handful that you're doing some sort of uh um sort of group session, um but each of them uh that'd be too difficult, I think. You you'd have to go down a path and just run with it.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

It becomes more targeted coaching, right? So because of the nature of group is very uh treated very differently. But how do you approach that?

SPEAKER_04 31:58

Um I haven't done enough group coaching to be able to sort of again get into that sort of variety. I typically just we again we have a topic that we're working on, if it's maybe uh business development or what have you, and we talk we discuss that for our session. But um no, I haven't sort of gone into different aspects of it with groups as well. So that's why I'm always looking to talk to other coaches, say, hey, how have you dealt with it with this or that scenario?

SPEAKER_00 32:22

That's that's fair. Um one thing I do want to talk about, because I know there was a reason why you and I both decided to register with a governing body. Anybody can hang their hat as a uh their shingle out.

SPEAKER_04 32:36

I see that a lot on people's people's bios and their websites and this like yeah, coach. I said, Well, are you really a coach? Like I actually took courses and I got certified. I had to take a test and everything. You know, I had to put in X number of hours. Have you done that? Not so much.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Right. What made you choose to regulate? Go to a regulation.

SPEAKER_04 32:54

Well, I just think that validation, right? And for for clients, if they're looking to talk with you, they're looking to decide and put their money towards coaching or consulting, coaching, they want to know that this person actually knows his knows his stuff and is is truly not just some sort of fly by night. He or she has done the work that put in the time, and you know, they're coming to you professionally. Um I have my BR, you know, BRM um business relationship management certification, and I have my PMP certification as well, project management certification. And those are very key. Whenever you're applying for something, especially as a consultant, they like to see the little letters behind your name to know that, oh, this person has put in the work, right? They do their accreditation and they do their um, what are the 60 hours uh that we have to get build up every three years uh to make sure that we're still holding up our end of it. So yeah, that's the that's the real reason. Because anybody can be a coach or call themselves a coach, but have you done the work? Can you truly justify that title?

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Really appreciate you saying that because that is in 100% alignment with with my thoughts on that as well. And I think there's also an element of not just credibility, but protection for the public. Right. Right. To be able to say if somet if I'm not receiving the right support or advice, I have a governing body to go and and talk to, right, um, raise concerns with. And there's also requirements, like there's supervisory coach require coaching number of hours, uh, you have to do uh continuing education, you have to do mentor coaching um to renew that licensing.

SPEAKER_04 34:33

So absolutely. I and I again we, you know, the association that I'm with in in Canada, um, they follow a lot of those things. I'm sure at ICF, um, the huge, you know, huge governing body there. And it it makes a difference. I I value it for sure.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Aaron Powell, yeah. I do. I do as well. And I think that's something really important to highlight for the public to just be aware of that there is those ident, that there are requirements and it is there for protection for them as well as to confirm that we've done the work.

SPEAKER_04 35:06

Right. Some of the some of the coaches in my association, the PBCA of Canada, some of the coaches have told me, you know, hey Mervyn, when you you know in your business cards or in your on your website, your web presence, make sure that you know it's a certified business coach, right? Professional business coach, because it's it matters.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

It does matter. So it does matter. So we have been doing a segment uh the last couple of episodes called Questions from the Audience.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

Are you ready for this?

SPEAKER_01 35:32

I am ready.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

All right. Okay. First one comes from Megan. She is stuck, stuck stuck, and more stuck. Um first off, do you get this way? Like, how do you get into being stuck? And what do you do to get unstuck in your business?

SPEAKER_04 35:51

Uh I personally, if I'm uh challenged with some aspect of my business, my operation, or what have you, um, I like to step back and away from it and just take a collective breath. Um I I exercise, I go for walks, or we just do something outside of the the work. Um sometimes it just gives you a fresh perspective. Um, you look at it from maybe 40,000 feet rather than when you're in the minutiae of it, it's difficult to see what's going on, right? So sometimes just step out of it, do something different, collect your collect yourself, take some deep breaths, go somewhere, and you come back fresher and with a clearer head. That's that works for me personally. Everybody's got their own sort of strategy, but that one is one that I I go to quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

I love that. Take a step back and then uh come with a pre fresh perspective. Yeah. I would it's actually very practical advice. I would also add, do you have a plan?

unknown 36:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

You might be feeling stuck because you don't have a plan.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

That's a good point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

And so um, same philosophy on you may be in the business if you do have a plan and you're working in the business, you're feeling stuck. Zoom out and look back at the plan.

SPEAKER_04 37:03

You know, Karis, you touched on something. When we went, when we first met uh last summer, we went for coffee. Yeah. And you asked me that question. You said, what do you what's your plan? What are you trying to do? Where do you want to go? Where do you see yourself? I'd never forgotten that. And that's something that you need to step back and you have someone else kind of provide that perspective for you. Because again, I just said, you when you're in it, sometimes you can't see it. Absolutely. So you need somebody else that can kind of look at it objectively and say, you know, hey, where are you going? What are you trying to do? Uh I bounced obviously a lot of things off uh professionally uh with my wife as well. And she kind of gives me that fresh perspective that people, you know, when you're in it, you just don't see it or don't understand. And she just asks certain questions that, oh, yeah, I hadn't thought about that. So I couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

So I'm gonna say for Megan, we've got three suggestions. One, walk away, take a breather.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Um, cut yourself a little slack.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

B, revisit your plan and C get an independent third party, whether it's your family, a friend, or a coach to be able to help support you in getting unstuck.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

I love this. Um burnout has been a hot topic as of late. How do I know if I'm burnt out or if I'm just avoiding doing the hard part? This is from Mike.

SPEAKER_04 38:23

Ooh, that's a great question, uh, Mike. Um Well, we just talked, we just touched on it. Like you don't know what you don't know. If you're in it, sometimes you can't see it, right? So I I think if you're burnt out, you'll know because perhaps your personality is a bit different. You're changed in terms of personality. The the types of things that you used to like to do, maybe you don't like as much, or they become more of a chore or a burden than something that you really enjoyed, um, whether it's work or otherwise. Um and again, maybe bouncing it off of somebody that you trust, somebody that knows you really really well, and just say, you know, hey, I'm struggling with this. Are you noticing anything as well? And being willing to to open up and and ask those kind of questions. Um, I think that would be the approach that would take. Um and if somebody's close to you that, you know, can see some of those things, they're gonna let you know, right? You know, if you're maybe just being a bit of a jerk or or just something that, you know, is that's not Murban or what have you, that's not Keras. Um, they'll call you on it. Um, I would think. Um, and if they're not, then they should be. So yeah, I I think just stepping back and having different perspective coming from different people is probably the best way to do if you're burnt out.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

I'm laughing because uh I used to be a bank manager here in town. I ran the TD for four years uh many moons ago. And my staff knew when I was hangry and they had a stash of chocolate bars and food because it was necessary. And so is it, you know, just that opportunity to step out.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

But in seriousness, um, to Mike, what I would say is there's actually seven different types of rest that we need. And is it that burnt out, that physical rest? Is it something different? Do you need to get out into nature? Do you need um to connection with somebody else? Do you need to walk away? Is it spiritual rest? Is it actual um so Sandra Dalton, and we'll put uh a link to this and go through all seven different types of rest that is needed. Uh, really important. So it may just be overwhelm. Is it overwhelm? Is it burnt out? What does your body need?

SPEAKER_04 40:35

Right. Um that was the book that you had uh we had talked about. Remember you were yeah, I finished uh I think that was the same book. Um, or was it a different one?

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Well, we I think we talked about uh Sandra Dalton's Seven Type Arrest. We also talked about Insight.

SPEAKER_04 40:50

Um there was another one. I thought there was And Shattered. Shattered. That's the one. That's the one that I'm Urich. Urich. That's the one that uh you had recommended. And I went through that. And there's a lot of similarities in that as well. Her book talked about sort of, yeah, when you're really overexposed and when you're going sort of down a path and you know, your physical health, your mental health are being challenged. And, you know, obviously the mind controls the body. And if you're just not well in, you know, in various different ways for what have you, whatever reason, it manifests itself, you know, physically with aches, with pains, with what have you. And she went through that as well. She talked about that quite a bit. She had uh a debilitating ED EDS, I think it's called that she couldn't get diagnosed uh with her um her doctor. She went to various doctors and finally um she saw a specialist and was able to diagnose her properly. And she was like this weight off her shoulders. I finally know, and she can attack it and deal with it. So yeah, it it definitely, you know, we you'll know when you're struggling. So yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

Yes. I it there is. And we actually just had an acupuncturist on last week who was talking exactly about that, that our bodies have a tendency to hold on to our emotions. And it comes out in really weird ways.

SPEAKER_04 42:09

Yeah, different ways.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Absolutely. Uh, our last question here How do I stay consistent with my business when my life is chaotic and unpredictable? From Lisa.

SPEAKER_04 42:23

Oh consistent, stay consistent. Um I think having that discipline to find things on a regular routine, even when you've got a whole bunch of turbulence and chaos happening around you. Um, I mentioned earlier that, you know, I like to go work out, and that's one of those things that I just you treat yourself, you you you do that for yourself first, uh, and you don't start to give in and and maybe have some um you know, limit yourself with other areas. Uh find find the things that are very, very important and stick to your guns and stick to those areas. Um that would probably be well for me one of my definite recommendations or suggestions. Um there are a lot a lot of different areas that you can go with that, but I think that's finding some consistency when everything else is around you is going a little bit uh chaotic and ask some of those questions, those those things that you just mentioned. Talk to different people, people again that you trust and have relationships with, and have them sort of help you or guide you through whatever it is that you're you're uh maybe challenged with. Um be willing to be vulnerable. Um, I think that is something that in this day and age, especially coming out of the the post-COVID uh time, um, so much mental health and and challenges that way. Um, I think just being willing to open up and to admit, hey, I need some help here. And uh, you know, find that from people again that you trust and and that you you know will be able to provide you that support. That's the approach that I would take. Uh what about you, Caris?

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Yeah, I I really do like that. Um there's a signal that's happening with chaotic and unpredictable. What I'm thinking about is simplifying.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

So what is actually essential for you to do? Prioritize. And get it into the calendar.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

Right. So a little bit more of a practical approach. When we're feeling chaotic and uh things are unpredictable, we need to get some some stability. Right. So the first thing, what can we stabilize?

SPEAKER_04 44:26

There's this four quadrants. Um who is Deming? I think it's Deming's four quadrants. Um I think it's Deming. Um where you have an hour matrix. Right. Yeah. Thank you. Yes. Yeah. So you've got your prioritize, you know, you're planning your quadrant, upper right quadrant. You've got your, you know, do it immediately. It has to get done today quadrant. Then you've got your lower left, is uh, you know, uh I'll do that when I've got some spare time. And then you've got your lower right quadrant where it's like, if you can not avoid it or not even do it at all, then get it off your list. Yeah. And yeah, and just have even with you got one or two of those things and just focus on the quadrants and say, what's the most important thing for me to do? That's uh that helps. I've got that little sort of um matrix or that quadrants in my on my desk. And I look at that every day. Um and yeah, at the end of it, when it is chaotic, just say, okay, did I at least accomplish this one thing, this important thing today, and prioritize that way. That works for me. So um I recommend that. I had a workshop two months ago uh where I told some of the uh owners, say, hey, work on this uh matrix, the Eisenhower matrix.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Do delegate, defer, ditch.

SPEAKER_04 45:35

A ditch.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

That's right. Get rid of.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Absolutely. Um Mervin, I am so grateful to have had this opportunity to sit down with you. I'm hoping you're willing to come back and hang out.

SPEAKER_04 45:46

Yeah, I love just to talk and talk shop for sure. Right. Bounce ideas off of a fellow coach.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

So if somebody wants to find you, what's the best way to get in contact with you?

SPEAKER_04 45:55

Uh Mervin at forethought.ca.ca as at my website, and uh I'm in LinkedIn as well.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

In LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_04 46:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for joining us and continue to lead with heart.